February 6, 2024 • 28 mins
Dear Diary. Today, I had the displeasure of visiting Holkham Hall, a rather ghastly eighteenth century country house in Norfolk. I found the place to be particularly exuberant with its Palladian architecture and its opulent interior. I mean, a room full of statues is hardly becoming and as for the staff, well for starters. I was met by a woman who described herself vastly. She said her name was Catherine, the collection's coordinator at Holkham and she was there to be our guide on this weeks episode of Bad Mannors.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Dear Diary. Today, I had the displeasure of visiting Helcombe Hall,
a rather ghastly eighteenth century country house in Norfolk. I
found the place to be particularly exuberant with its Palladian
architecture and its opulent interior. I mean, a room full
of statues is hardly becoming and that's for the staff,
(00:23):
well for starters. I was met by a woman who
described herself vastly.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Yes, say, I'm Catherine. I'm collection's coordinator at Hokumbe, which
means basically, I look after all of the stuff in
the house.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Stuff. I've never heard of anything so ab third in
all my life. Okay, I'll stop doing the cantankerous old
lady routine. That was my best Lady Mary Cook impression.
She'll make an appearance later on. But like I said,
on this episode, we're taking a virtual visit to Hocumbe Hall.
You've just heard from my guide, Catherine Hardwick, collections called
(01:00):
NATA and look at after of stuff. So what kind
of stuff can we find in this country house?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Paintings, furniture, statues, you name it. I have to look
after it.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
And this place is massive, so there is a lot
of stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah, there's quite a lot of stuff. And the worrying
thing is we don't really know how much stuff we have.
I'm constantly finding rooms full of things that we didn't
know was there.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Let's firstly describe the house. So as we're in our carriage,
let's say driving up, which I imagine is quite a
long drive.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, we have well, not that I'm biased, but I
think it's one of the best approaches to a country
house in the country. So you start, I think it's
probably about three miles away from the house.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Three miles Jesus.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
We're in this for the long haul. And you start
by coming under a triumphal arch William Kent triumphal Arch,
which sort of welcomes you to the estate. The Jurassic
Park doors, Yeah, with less dinosaurs. So you come through
your tria for arch, and then in your carriage, probably
going really slowly. I don't think they had any sort
of turbocharged carriages. You're carrying down this drive which is
(02:15):
dead straight, and you're just you're looking at an obelisk.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Oh, there's an obelisk that was built on top of
a hill. Yeah that right, Yes, I read up about
this obelisk and this is like a big sort of
stone point.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yes, it's a big pointy column, essentially.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Big pointy column.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah, and it's built on top of a hill, highest
point on the estate, which we are in Norfolk, so
that's not saying an awful lot.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
But the very very famously flat area of Norfolk. But yeah, okay,
who built the obelisk? Why is it there?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Again? It's William Kent and it was to mark the
highest point of the estate and kind of starting building
work at Hokum. So you come past the obelisk and
you get this glimpse of the house through the trees.
It's like teasing you because then you turn very quickly
away from it. It's like a lady with the fan
going you can see me, but just.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
The Jessica rabbit leg comes out of the curtains exactly
what a sexy hall.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
And then you kind of curve back down off that
hill through the park, past the lake and you swing
round onto the north side of the house and you're
coming into house through the north which is quite unusual.
We've not got a grand portico or anything like that.
You come through what is a really really tiny door
and you come through this tiny door into the Marble Hall,
(03:31):
which is just the most enormous room, so it kind
of like opens up in front of you. It's basically
all alabaster, so it's bright pink with kind of columns
and statues and it's really just a wow factor.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Oh yeah, I was gonna mention because yeah, again I've
seen pictures of this place and that hole and it
is it's massive. Yeah, the whole place. So I'm going
to get this wrong, but it's a Palladian palladium Palladian
Palladian lady, thank you very much. This is why you
are on the pod so that actual words get said correctly.
(04:07):
Palladium build, which is basically it's sort of modeled a
bit on sort of Greek pillars and all that sort
of stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Right, Yes, So Palladian comes from an Italian architect actually
called Andrea Palladio, who was building a lot around Venice
and Thecenza in i think the sixteenth century, and his
stick was he really looked towards Roman architecture. He wanted
to build like the Romans built, So hokan really is
that we are trying to be Roman but through sixteenth
(04:34):
century Italian.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
At the front, there's also one of the most impressive
fountains I think I've ever seen, yes, in that big
circular pond.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, so this is a Victorian invention, but it is,
as you say, fantastic. So it's George and the Dragon, or,
depending on who you talk to, Perseus and Andromeda, but
essentially the same story. A good guy is killing a
monster to save a princess.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
That's nice and everything. But if you I wanted a
fountain depicting a guy finding a monster to save a princess,
why wouldn't you just install the sculpture of super Mario?
Just doesn't many sense. The interior of Hocum is just
as fancy. Spreading out from the central building are four wings,
and guess what they've all got names.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
We have the family wing, which is where the family
still live. It sounds quite mean they have a wing
of a house, but I think it's genuinely well, it's
much bigger than my house.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it's much bigger than mine.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
There's a wing called the Stranger's wing, which is where
guests stayed.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
That's a little bit cold, isn't it. Going at the
Stranger's wing. I'd be a bit sort of offended by that,
I think, Oh, I.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Know, the rooms are quite company. And in the eighteenth
century you had a plushing toilet, which was very fancy.
If you had a flushing toilet, you were really.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Push Oh wow, Stranger's wing didn't like it at the start,
but now I'm sold. And then two more wings.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Let's go, Yeah, two more wings. So then we have
the chapel wing, which is the religious wing if there's
a family chapel in there, and then the final wing
is kitchen wing, which is where all the servants are.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Basically makes sense. Okay, oh that makes sense as four
wings good themed rooms. It would be an excellent new
reimagining of the Crystal Maze. And now follow me to
the religion zone. So the person who built this hall
(06:32):
is called Thomas Cook spelt Coke but pronounced Cook. Yes,
he's the first Earl of Leicester. Yes, and he's a
bit of a legend, a bit of a lad, yeah,
bit of a party animal.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yeah. I think Thomas Cook might be all things to
all men. His stick is when he was a young
chap he was orphaned at the age of ten.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Hey, if it's good enough for Batman, it's good enough
for Thomas Cook.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
I think probably in the way of who he's without
strong father figures, he became a bit wild. He liked
to gamble, he really loved cockfighting, liked hunting, and I
think most scandalusly, he liked talking to people in the village.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
What I know, I mean, I'm alright with making birds
fight each other, but talking to people in the village,
really is that just frowned upon because he's an earl
and you shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Be well, he's not an earl at that point, He's
just plain on mister Cook.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Oh yeah, So why was it a scandal then that
he was talking to the locals.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
I think his sort of his guardians thought they might
they might be a bad influence on him.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I think he might have been a bad ice on
them more likely, quite probably. When did his sort of
reprobate ways begin.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
I think when he was about eleven or twelve. I
think that kind of like preteen rebellion, you know, no
parents needs a bit of attention, really starts to kick
it lease, and so the people looking after him decide
they can't have this. They you know, he needs to
be a civilized young man, and so they send him
to Europe. They think the sensible thing to do is
(08:08):
send him to Europe and he'll come back, you know,
educated and erudite, and he couldn't possibly cockfight or gamble
or anything awful on the continent.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
This is sort of the eighteenth century equivalent of a
gap year.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yeah, except so Thomas Cook, it was five gap.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Years, five gap years. Oh god, he's that bloke. He
went to Balley and never really grew up, and then
he's sort of just trying to find himself. Man.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah, that's exactly. That just replaced Barley with Italy and
you're there.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, yeah, that's it. Because also the houses sort of
chock a block full of loads of different like statues
and paintings and collections that he's got around around the globe.
So it's like when you make goes away on a
gap year and he comes back in sort of hemp
trousers and he's got some masks from the pool and
he went to a full moon party, and he's got
a tattoo of a tribal symbol that actually means like
(09:01):
something off a takeaway menu, and chlamydia. This is what
he's come back with.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, essentially, she was say a bit more tasteful than
some of the things you might come back from a
modern gap. But yeah, he spends five years on a
really massive shopping spree around Europe. So he brings back
an awful lot of books, so so many books, manuscripts,
Roman sculpture. Here's a real thing for Roman statues. One
(09:27):
of the real kind of stars, which is our statue
of Diana is with us now in Norfolk.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
And she's still there.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
She's still here.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Oh whereabouts in the house is she stuck?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
So she's in the statue gallery, which was designed for
all his makes Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
It makes sense. That sounds like the right place to be.
What are the crazy stuff did he bring back from
his time abroad?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
I think probably one of the maddest things, which sadly
we don't own anymore, And this is one of the
greatest disappointments for me, is he came back with a
Leonardo da Vinci manuscript.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Oh that is gold dust. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Bought it in Florence and knew enough about Leonardo to
commission someone to make a translation. But because it's written
in Leonardo's river writing, mirror writing, so he had it
copied but in normal writing, so he could read it.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Sorry, because Leonard did.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
He he wrote everything backwards.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
That's just insane. Why why why?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I think because he could.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Just to show on rather than it was some sort
of trick like code that no one would break.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, I think it was because he was just that clever.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
I mean, that is a hell of a party trip.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
So yeah, So he came back with a nice, shiny
Leonardo manuscript that was here for about three hundred years
and then it was sold in the nineteen eighties and
is now alled by Bill Gates.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
I love how Bill Gates has got a connection to
her Hall. I quite liked the story that he used
to get big paintings and then have himself painted into
the painting. Yes, talk us through some of the paintings
that he's put himself in.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
So it starts off I think as quite a boring,
well we think of it as quite a boring academic exercise.
So he loved the Roman historian Livy, like absolutely loved him,
and commissioned a load of paintings with scenes from Livy.
So there's the Continents of Scipio, so that Roman general
mercifully giving back a slave he'd taken as a trophy,
(11:29):
the rape of Lucretia, which is, you know, lovely lady
being attacked by one of the Roman senators.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
I'm sorry, and he wanted himself painted into that side.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
He's not that.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
When he's not, that's a that's a terrible idea, mate,
don't get yourself in that.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Yeah. I see. He commissioned all these paintings with scenes
from Livy and then I'd say in probably eighty percent
of them he crops up as a figure in the background.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Ah. So it's sort of like you know how you
can get apps nowaday is where you can impose your
own yea. It's not like it's like the first ever.
Means that he's just done in big painting thing.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
And if you imagine, you know, there's no internet, there's
no television, there's no nothing. In the eighteenth century, you're
wandering around some guy's house and you're like, is he
is that him? He looks familiar.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, yeah, Tom though doesn't have a particularly long life,
actually does he. He's got a few sort of scandals
with with the ladies.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Yeah, he was by all accounts, I think a bit
of a womanizer. We don't know anything kind of concrete,
but there's all these people writing about, you know, his
poor wife, how does she put up with him? And
you know she's alone at Hokum again, and so I
think he did have a thing for the ladies.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, who was his wife?
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Sorry, she's called Lady Margaret, Lady Margaret Cook, who is right. Yeah,
she's something of a hero for us here at Oakum.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yes, we'll tell us about Margaret.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Then. So, after her husband died, the house wasn't finished,
so she finished it. And it sounds really boring today,
but it gets historians really excited. She was a fantastic accountant.
I'd say, we have all of her books with you know,
meticulous things that she purchased. And she was also adamant
about I bought this with my own money. This is
(13:15):
not my husband.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Ah right Yeah. So but yeah, as far as the
historian goes, that is absolutely just the find of the century.
She's written all this information down while her husband is
just off drinking and leaving her alone. She's really Yeah,
she's quite a sad figure then.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Really, I think if he was sort of the mad
creative genius, she was definitely like the stoic individual holding
it all together.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
And she outlives him quite easily.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Right, Yeah, I think it's about twenty years almost, give
a take.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
I want to talk about the jewel he had, Yes,
phantom duel, the Phantom Jewel, which sounds very mysterious.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yes, so this is towards the end of his life,
which is a key fact in creating the legend of
the Phantom Jewel. Thomas cookies he's never really been an athlete.
He's a bit of a bomb v verse, shall we say.
He likes his why and he likes his food. He's
a man into his fifties at this point, so you've
(14:25):
got a picture of him.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
He's not yeah, sure, very gammon ye rosy cheek, rosy
cheek vain.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
And at this point in time, the Seven Year was
broken out in Europe, and so there's a huge push
to create militias and you know, men wanting to be
like prepared for war and all this sort of you know,
prancing about with standards and in uniforms and all this
kind of thing. And one of his younger neighbors, a
chap called Townsend. He's from down the road here at
(14:55):
hok a house called Raynham. He sets up a Norfolk
militia about which Thomas Cook's quite rude.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
He thinks they're all a bit silly, right, okay, and
so slap across the face with a glove. I'll meet
you outside. Is that exactly? Yeah, that's what we like
to hear.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, he's going to defend the honor of his militia group.
So Thomas Cook, being I think about thirty years older
than this Chap Townsend, who you know, likes his what
it's not really a sportsman, basically says, get a grip
of yourself. I'm old enough to be your dad. We're
not having a duel. And so no duel actually happens.
(15:35):
But about three months later Cook keels over from entirely
natural causes, and so because people have got hold that
there might have been a duel, and then he dies
so quickly afterwards, they think he's been killed. They think
Townshend's killed him.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Oh so just Townsend get accused officially.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
I don't think he officially gets accused, but it kind
of passes down into family law about the duel.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
He was killed in the duel, eve though quite clearly
his liver just gave up.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Basically.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
The other character that I'm most interested in is also
Lady Mary Cook, who's it comes a little bit later.
Hang on, I've got a I've got I've got a
little intro for her. Mm hmm. Dear listener, you are
cordially invited to eavesdrop as we discuss a most obnoxious character.
The lady Mary Cook, I must say, has been the
(16:27):
architect of some of the most scandalous diary entries to
ever be penned here in Hocombe Hall. No person was
exempt from her acid tongue and sharpened quill. Simply put,
she's a miserable cow. Yeah, how how how close was that?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
That's pretty fair?
Speaker 1 (16:44):
I think I did that in the style of Lady
Whistledown from Bridgeton, because that's sort of how she's known
for her diary entries, which are or you know, she
doesn't hold back.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
No, she is. She's fantastic. She does not mince her words.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Again, and a historian's dream just to get hold of
all these diaries, I imagine.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yeah, no, it's fantastic to have that uncensored written word.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
So talk us through who she is? How did she
come to hocm Hall White where she come from?
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Okay? What say? Lady Mary is the youngest daughter of
the Duke of Argyle. She's born in seventeen twenty seven,
and she grows up bile accounts almost completely wild. They
didn't really bother with any sort of schooling or any education.
She just kind of left her own devices in a sort.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Of quite a like neglected abusive way, or just I.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Think is a bit like sort of a railway children
type vibe. Is okay, I think she's having a great time.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Okay, fair enough, No sympathy for her. She's also crazy
looking as well, and.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah, she's meant to be this really sort of bizarre coloring,
really pale white hair, kind of really light blonde, almost
white hair, and these brilliant blue eyes.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Wow, really striking, like a like a white walker.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
White cat is what she's called, White Cat, The white cat.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Oh nice.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, she's also a bit feisty. So in seventeen forty seven,
she's twenty years old and she's told by her parents, right, love,
it's time to get married, and we've chosen the lucky gentleman.
The lucky chap is Edward Cook, who's Thomas cookar builder.
That is his only son, his only child.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
And is she happy with that? She is not.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Happy with this she's not enamored with him. She sort
of puts on a brave face, and he apparently is
very gallant, you know, he comes in and they call
it making love when you come in and read poems
and say, oh, you know, you're the most beautiful woman
I've ever seen in all this.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
And he's just reciting these love poems to this ice
sculpture of a woman's staring at him. Yeah, talking about
a frosty reception.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
So they're eventually married, and she, by this point in time,
has she's worked herself up into a thing of a frenzy.
You're an eighteenth century lady. You might have been kissed
on the hand if you're a bit scandalous, but you've
never been touched. And suddenly you're a wife, and you
know you're expected to lie back and think of England.
And so she's she worked up about this. She's not
(19:17):
looking forward to it. And Edward comes in on the
wedding night and basically says, don't worry, love, I'm not
going to touch you, and goes out drinking with his
friends and sort of comes back in at six in
the morning, absolutely wasted, and that I think that's about
as good as it ever got for their marriage have anything.
They never had any children, they never had any sex actually,
(19:38):
which in the eighteenth century was you just you didn't
hear of it?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Well, I mean, was he that bad?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
I don't know. All accounts of him as a young
man suggests, you know, he's quite handsome, he's quite dapper.
There's all these accounts of them before they're married, and he's,
you know, very attentive and very sweet. And then they
get marriage and it's like the s which has flipped
and he's out every night drinking with his friends and
gambling all of his money away, and he dies in
(20:06):
his early thirties. He drinks himself to death.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Oh so, and then because of this sort of I
guess resentment of the situation she's been put in, is
that what you think turns her into this sort of
acid penned diary entry.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I think so it can't have been a very happy time.
She tries to divorce him. That goes poorly. She sort
of says, he beat me, he wants tore my rough,
which in the eighteenth centuries not that much. Quite frankly,
he was legal to beat your wife.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Yeah, just a bit of wife beating. Back then, I
don't know what you complain about love.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
So they're not able to get divorced. She claims that
she was locked here at Hokum up in one of
the upstairs bedrooms.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
But but then her diary entries also then go off
to just not just him, it's everyone else who then
starts getting.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah, so after he dies, they've been separated before that.
But he dies and she is a widow and she
can kind of come out in society. You know, she's
got no pressure to marry. She can be in society
and she can you know, she knows all the people.
She knows all the royal family, all the sort of
great and good and she just goes to all these
(21:19):
parties and watches people and then writes about them.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
So who are her main targets for her dary entries?
What are the juiciest passages?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
So this is one of my favorite ones. She's writing
here about a lady called the Countess of Waldergrave, who
was widowed and then secretly married another son of the king,
the Duke of Gloucester, which was scandalous because she was
a commoner and a widow, an action and illegitimate daughter.
So she couldn't be marrying the son of the king.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
That is a triple n isn't it so this.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
This marriage was all hush hush. But anyway, Lady Mary
writes the Dowager Countess that some time ago, as soon
as the castle clock up Windsor had struck twelve, and
out of consequence all quiet, she ordered a rocket to
be let off in the Great Walk in Windsor Park,
which it seems was the signal for soon after a
(22:13):
royal chez came down and out of it a certain
duke who usually passed the remaining part of the night
in her lodgings. The rocket at last became such a
ridicule at Windsor that she was obliged to leave it off.
But the chaise with the Duke arrived at the same hour.
His being there five nights a week was known to
(22:34):
all Windsor. What all this is to end in I
don't know, but I think she is very lucky in
getting people to keep her company when she acts in
such a manner.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Wow, shade has been thrown.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
That's an eighteenth century burn right there.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
That is absolutely that is proper. Not mincing your words.
When she has let off a rocket.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
I think she means a firework, which I also quite
enjoy as a covert signal for your lover to come
see you.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Yeah. Absolutely, I'd actually be very, very flattered if if
someone let off a firework for me, I'd take a
lily party popa at this point, now, mister, we're going
for our next quote from Lady Mary Cook.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Okay, so now we've gone to the court in France,
Court of Louis the sixteenth. So if anyone seen Sofia
Coppola's Mary on Twitter, this is what we're imagining. The
Dophile is much green, but not improved. The Conteartois is
handsome and looks lively. The contest of Provence is full
(23:44):
as ugly as she has been represented, very dark, and
her hair on the side of her forehead grows so
forward that it very near joins her eyebrows, which are
very large. She has the most extraordinary nose, and her
teeth are very bad and thick and to the most
ungraceful manner of walking. I ever saw Madam the Dauphin's
(24:06):
elder sister, but thirteen years of age is without exaggeration,
one of the biggest women I ever remember to have seen.
That's grue savage, isn't it well?
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Because also, like you were saying just earlier, in an
age where you know, like even holding hands was looked
at scandalous sexually. The fact that she's gone that, I mean,
that is really for that age is it's absolute hell fire.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
She's gone with barrels there, she's not holding back.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, and on a thirteen year old, I know, I
quite like the fact that.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
It's thick teeth, thick teeth.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Thick, I don't that's a horrible thing to say. Thick.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
I don't even know what that means, like.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
A horse like three, but in the occupying the space
that's seven or eight should and small, Yeah, thick and
small like chowed chowed teeth. How does she eventually see?
How her days?
Speaker 2 (25:13):
So it's a little bit of a sad end. Actually
she's quite long lived, but as you might expect for
someone who writes the way she does, she doesn't have
many friends by the end of her life, and so
she dies quite alone. Really not the most cheerful ending of.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
What anything in particular just.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Natural causes old age spite.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
But Catherine, I've heard rumors that allegedly her ghost is
still said to occupy the hall. So in many ways,
she's never left.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, I have never seen her. I would love to
see her. But yes, supposedly she still haunts the rooms
that her wicked husband locked her in. So the rooms
she was locked in and our part of the family wing.
It's where the family live, and typically the rooms in
the attic where they put the children to sleep. So
Lady Angelen Connor and her sister, Lady Carey had those
(26:03):
rooms when they were children. And I think it's Lady Carey.
Lady An's sister is absolutely convinced that she was haunted
repeatedly by Lady Mary.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Wow, what did she say she was doing?
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I think generally sort of terrorizing her, making moaning noises,
keeping her up at night.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
I mean, I can't tell you how many white women
ghosts there are in various houses and castles. I mean,
really they are. The Karen stereotype does filter into the
supernatural quite a lot. These women agers will not go
and keep on going.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Imagine being that angry that you can't even let go,
even in death.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Even in death, come on, get over it. I feel
like Lady Mary would have definitely been a I want
to speak to the manager please.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
I think manager, boss director, tear the company down.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
God, I'd hate to hear what she thought of this podcast. Luckily,
I'm not going to do my impression won't find out. Instead,
we'll just end the episode there. Thank you to Catherine
for chatting to us. She and I will return to
HOKM Hall later in the series to discuss the important
things of life between us three. I don't know what
(27:14):
the biggest animal you think you could take in a
fight is.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I'm not the biggest person, but I reckon, I reckon,
I could take a shoep I think maybe a large tortoise.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
I can hear Lady Mary turning in her grave. Until then,
sell your manuscripts to Bill Gates, insert yourself into paintings,
and mind your manners. Oh there she is. Thanks for
listening to Bad Manners. If you like the pod, please
share it with your friends, Rate it on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Leave
(27:47):
a review and make sure you spill the tea on
any of your favorite Bad Manners that we could feature
in future episodes. This podcast was produced by Asami Studios
for iHeartRadio. It was hosted by me Tom Horton. It
was produced by William Lensky, Rebecca Rappaport and Chris Ataway.
It was executive produced by Faith Steer and Zad Rogers.
(28:09):
Our production manager is Caitlin Paramore and our production coordinator
is Bellasolini
Dear Diary. Today, I had the displeasure of visiting Helcombe Hall,
a rather ghastly eighteenth century country house in Norfolk. I
found the place to be particularly exuberant with its Palladian
architecture and its opulent interior. I mean, a room full
of statues is hardly becoming and that's for the staff,
(00:23):
well for starters. I was met by a woman who
described herself vastly.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
Yes, say, I'm Catherine. I'm collection's coordinator at Hokumbe, which
means basically, I look after all of the stuff in
the house.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Stuff. I've never heard of anything so ab third in
all my life. Okay, I'll stop doing the cantankerous old
lady routine. That was my best Lady Mary Cook impression.
She'll make an appearance later on. But like I said,
on this episode, we're taking a virtual visit to Hocumbe Hall.
You've just heard from my guide, Catherine Hardwick, collections called
(01:00):
NATA and look at after of stuff. So what kind
of stuff can we find in this country house?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Paintings, furniture, statues, you name it. I have to look
after it.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
And this place is massive, so there is a lot
of stuff.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yeah, there's quite a lot of stuff. And the worrying
thing is we don't really know how much stuff we have.
I'm constantly finding rooms full of things that we didn't
know was there.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
Let's firstly describe the house. So as we're in our carriage,
let's say driving up, which I imagine is quite a
long drive.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, we have well, not that I'm biased, but I
think it's one of the best approaches to a country
house in the country. So you start, I think it's
probably about three miles away from the house.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Three miles Jesus.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
We're in this for the long haul. And you start
by coming under a triumphal arch William Kent triumphal Arch,
which sort of welcomes you to the estate. The Jurassic
Park doors, Yeah, with less dinosaurs. So you come through
your tria for arch, and then in your carriage, probably
going really slowly. I don't think they had any sort
of turbocharged carriages. You're carrying down this drive which is
(02:15):
dead straight, and you're just you're looking at an obelisk.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Oh, there's an obelisk that was built on top of
a hill. Yeah that right, Yes, I read up about
this obelisk and this is like a big sort of
stone point.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Yes, it's a big pointy column, essentially.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
Big pointy column.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
Yeah, and it's built on top of a hill, highest
point on the estate, which we are in Norfolk, so
that's not saying an awful lot.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
But the very very famously flat area of Norfolk. But yeah, okay,
who built the obelisk? Why is it there?
Speaker 2 (02:45):
Again? It's William Kent and it was to mark the
highest point of the estate and kind of starting building
work at Hokum. So you come past the obelisk and
you get this glimpse of the house through the trees.
It's like teasing you because then you turn very quickly
away from it. It's like a lady with the fan
going you can see me, but just.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
The Jessica rabbit leg comes out of the curtains exactly
what a sexy hall.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
And then you kind of curve back down off that
hill through the park, past the lake and you swing
round onto the north side of the house and you're
coming into house through the north which is quite unusual.
We've not got a grand portico or anything like that.
You come through what is a really really tiny door
and you come through this tiny door into the Marble Hall,
(03:31):
which is just the most enormous room, so it kind
of like opens up in front of you. It's basically
all alabaster, so it's bright pink with kind of columns
and statues and it's really just a wow factor.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
Oh yeah, I was gonna mention because yeah, again I've
seen pictures of this place and that hole and it
is it's massive. Yeah, the whole place. So I'm going
to get this wrong, but it's a Palladian palladium Palladian
Palladian lady, thank you very much. This is why you
are on the pod so that actual words get said correctly.
(04:07):
Palladium build, which is basically it's sort of modeled a
bit on sort of Greek pillars and all that sort
of stuff.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Right, Yes, So Palladian comes from an Italian architect actually
called Andrea Palladio, who was building a lot around Venice
and Thecenza in i think the sixteenth century, and his
stick was he really looked towards Roman architecture. He wanted
to build like the Romans built, So hokan really is
that we are trying to be Roman but through sixteenth
(04:34):
century Italian.
Speaker 1 (04:35):
At the front, there's also one of the most impressive
fountains I think I've ever seen, yes, in that big
circular pond.
Speaker 2 (04:43):
Yeah, so this is a Victorian invention, but it is,
as you say, fantastic. So it's George and the Dragon, or,
depending on who you talk to, Perseus and Andromeda, but
essentially the same story. A good guy is killing a
monster to save a princess.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
That's nice and everything. But if you I wanted a
fountain depicting a guy finding a monster to save a princess,
why wouldn't you just install the sculpture of super Mario?
Just doesn't many sense. The interior of Hocum is just
as fancy. Spreading out from the central building are four wings,
and guess what they've all got names.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
We have the family wing, which is where the family
still live. It sounds quite mean they have a wing
of a house, but I think it's genuinely well, it's
much bigger than my house.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, I mean, I'm sure it's much bigger than mine.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
There's a wing called the Stranger's wing, which is where
guests stayed.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
That's a little bit cold, isn't it. Going at the
Stranger's wing. I'd be a bit sort of offended by that,
I think, Oh, I.
Speaker 2 (05:38):
Know, the rooms are quite company. And in the eighteenth
century you had a plushing toilet, which was very fancy.
If you had a flushing toilet, you were really.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
Push Oh wow, Stranger's wing didn't like it at the start,
but now I'm sold. And then two more wings.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
Let's go, Yeah, two more wings. So then we have
the chapel wing, which is the religious wing if there's
a family chapel in there, and then the final wing
is kitchen wing, which is where all the servants are.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Basically makes sense. Okay, oh that makes sense as four
wings good themed rooms. It would be an excellent new
reimagining of the Crystal Maze. And now follow me to
the religion zone. So the person who built this hall
(06:32):
is called Thomas Cook spelt Coke but pronounced Cook. Yes,
he's the first Earl of Leicester. Yes, and he's a
bit of a legend, a bit of a lad, yeah,
bit of a party animal.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yeah. I think Thomas Cook might be all things to
all men. His stick is when he was a young
chap he was orphaned at the age of ten.
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Hey, if it's good enough for Batman, it's good enough
for Thomas Cook.
Speaker 2 (06:56):
I think probably in the way of who he's without
strong father figures, he became a bit wild. He liked
to gamble, he really loved cockfighting, liked hunting, and I
think most scandalusly, he liked talking to people in the village.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
What I know, I mean, I'm alright with making birds
fight each other, but talking to people in the village,
really is that just frowned upon because he's an earl
and you shouldn't.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Be well, he's not an earl at that point, He's
just plain on mister Cook.
Speaker 1 (07:27):
Oh yeah, So why was it a scandal then that
he was talking to the locals.
Speaker 2 (07:32):
I think his sort of his guardians thought they might
they might be a bad influence on him.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I think he might have been a bad ice on
them more likely, quite probably. When did his sort of
reprobate ways begin.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
I think when he was about eleven or twelve. I
think that kind of like preteen rebellion, you know, no
parents needs a bit of attention, really starts to kick
it lease, and so the people looking after him decide
they can't have this. They you know, he needs to
be a civilized young man, and so they send him
to Europe. They think the sensible thing to do is
(08:08):
send him to Europe and he'll come back, you know,
educated and erudite, and he couldn't possibly cockfight or gamble
or anything awful on the continent.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
This is sort of the eighteenth century equivalent of a
gap year.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
Yeah, except so Thomas Cook, it was five gap.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
Years, five gap years. Oh god, he's that bloke. He
went to Balley and never really grew up, and then
he's sort of just trying to find himself. Man.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah, that's exactly. That just replaced Barley with Italy and
you're there.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Yeah, yeah, that's it. Because also the houses sort of
chock a block full of loads of different like statues
and paintings and collections that he's got around around the globe.
So it's like when you make goes away on a
gap year and he comes back in sort of hemp
trousers and he's got some masks from the pool and
he went to a full moon party, and he's got
a tattoo of a tribal symbol that actually means like
(09:01):
something off a takeaway menu, and chlamydia. This is what
he's come back with.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
Yeah, essentially, she was say a bit more tasteful than
some of the things you might come back from a
modern gap. But yeah, he spends five years on a
really massive shopping spree around Europe. So he brings back
an awful lot of books, so so many books, manuscripts,
Roman sculpture. Here's a real thing for Roman statues. One
(09:27):
of the real kind of stars, which is our statue
of Diana is with us now in Norfolk.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
And she's still there.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
She's still here.
Speaker 1 (09:34):
Oh whereabouts in the house is she stuck?
Speaker 2 (09:36):
So she's in the statue gallery, which was designed for
all his makes Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:40):
It makes sense. That sounds like the right place to be.
What are the crazy stuff did he bring back from
his time abroad?
Speaker 2 (09:46):
I think probably one of the maddest things, which sadly
we don't own anymore, And this is one of the
greatest disappointments for me, is he came back with a
Leonardo da Vinci manuscript.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
Oh that is gold dust. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
Bought it in Florence and knew enough about Leonardo to
commission someone to make a translation. But because it's written
in Leonardo's river writing, mirror writing, so he had it
copied but in normal writing, so he could read it.
Speaker 1 (10:16):
Sorry, because Leonard did.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
He he wrote everything backwards.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
That's just insane. Why why why?
Speaker 2 (10:24):
I think because he could.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Just to show on rather than it was some sort
of trick like code that no one would break.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah, I think it was because he was just that clever.
Speaker 1 (10:34):
I mean, that is a hell of a party trip.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
So yeah, So he came back with a nice, shiny
Leonardo manuscript that was here for about three hundred years
and then it was sold in the nineteen eighties and
is now alled by Bill Gates.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
I love how Bill Gates has got a connection to
her Hall. I quite liked the story that he used
to get big paintings and then have himself painted into
the painting. Yes, talk us through some of the paintings
that he's put himself in.
Speaker 2 (11:05):
So it starts off I think as quite a boring,
well we think of it as quite a boring academic exercise.
So he loved the Roman historian Livy, like absolutely loved him,
and commissioned a load of paintings with scenes from Livy.
So there's the Continents of Scipio, so that Roman general
mercifully giving back a slave he'd taken as a trophy,
(11:29):
the rape of Lucretia, which is, you know, lovely lady
being attacked by one of the Roman senators.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
I'm sorry, and he wanted himself painted into that side.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
He's not that.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
When he's not, that's a that's a terrible idea, mate,
don't get yourself in that.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Yeah. I see. He commissioned all these paintings with scenes
from Livy and then I'd say in probably eighty percent
of them he crops up as a figure in the background.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Ah. So it's sort of like you know how you
can get apps nowaday is where you can impose your
own yea. It's not like it's like the first ever.
Means that he's just done in big painting thing.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
And if you imagine, you know, there's no internet, there's
no television, there's no nothing. In the eighteenth century, you're
wandering around some guy's house and you're like, is he
is that him? He looks familiar.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, yeah, Tom though doesn't have a particularly long life,
actually does he. He's got a few sort of scandals
with with the ladies.
Speaker 2 (12:27):
Yeah, he was by all accounts, I think a bit
of a womanizer. We don't know anything kind of concrete,
but there's all these people writing about, you know, his
poor wife, how does she put up with him? And
you know she's alone at Hokum again, and so I
think he did have a thing for the ladies.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, who was his wife?
Speaker 2 (12:45):
Sorry, she's called Lady Margaret, Lady Margaret Cook, who is right. Yeah,
she's something of a hero for us here at Oakum.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yes, we'll tell us about Margaret.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
Then. So, after her husband died, the house wasn't finished,
so she finished it. And it sounds really boring today,
but it gets historians really excited. She was a fantastic accountant.
I'd say, we have all of her books with you know,
meticulous things that she purchased. And she was also adamant
about I bought this with my own money. This is
(13:15):
not my husband.
Speaker 1 (13:16):
Ah right Yeah. So but yeah, as far as the
historian goes, that is absolutely just the find of the century.
She's written all this information down while her husband is
just off drinking and leaving her alone. She's really Yeah,
she's quite a sad figure then.
Speaker 2 (13:30):
Really, I think if he was sort of the mad
creative genius, she was definitely like the stoic individual holding
it all together.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
And she outlives him quite easily.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
Right, Yeah, I think it's about twenty years almost, give
a take.
Speaker 1 (13:56):
I want to talk about the jewel he had, Yes,
phantom duel, the Phantom Jewel, which sounds very mysterious.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
Yes, so this is towards the end of his life,
which is a key fact in creating the legend of
the Phantom Jewel. Thomas cookies he's never really been an athlete.
He's a bit of a bomb v verse, shall we say.
He likes his why and he likes his food. He's
a man into his fifties at this point, so you've
(14:25):
got a picture of him.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
He's not yeah, sure, very gammon ye rosy cheek, rosy
cheek vain.
Speaker 2 (14:35):
And at this point in time, the Seven Year was
broken out in Europe, and so there's a huge push
to create militias and you know, men wanting to be
like prepared for war and all this sort of you know,
prancing about with standards and in uniforms and all this
kind of thing. And one of his younger neighbors, a
chap called Townsend. He's from down the road here at
(14:55):
hok a house called Raynham. He sets up a Norfolk
militia about which Thomas Cook's quite rude.
Speaker 1 (15:02):
He thinks they're all a bit silly, right, okay, and
so slap across the face with a glove. I'll meet
you outside. Is that exactly? Yeah, that's what we like
to hear.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Yeah, he's going to defend the honor of his militia group.
So Thomas Cook, being I think about thirty years older
than this Chap Townsend, who you know, likes his what
it's not really a sportsman, basically says, get a grip
of yourself. I'm old enough to be your dad. We're
not having a duel. And so no duel actually happens.
(15:35):
But about three months later Cook keels over from entirely
natural causes, and so because people have got hold that
there might have been a duel, and then he dies
so quickly afterwards, they think he's been killed. They think
Townshend's killed him.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
Oh so just Townsend get accused officially.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
I don't think he officially gets accused, but it kind
of passes down into family law about the duel.
Speaker 1 (15:58):
He was killed in the duel, eve though quite clearly
his liver just gave up.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Basically.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
The other character that I'm most interested in is also
Lady Mary Cook, who's it comes a little bit later.
Hang on, I've got a I've got I've got a
little intro for her. Mm hmm. Dear listener, you are
cordially invited to eavesdrop as we discuss a most obnoxious character.
The lady Mary Cook, I must say, has been the
(16:27):
architect of some of the most scandalous diary entries to
ever be penned here in Hocombe Hall. No person was
exempt from her acid tongue and sharpened quill. Simply put,
she's a miserable cow. Yeah, how how how close was that?
Speaker 2 (16:43):
That's pretty fair?
Speaker 1 (16:44):
I think I did that in the style of Lady
Whistledown from Bridgeton, because that's sort of how she's known
for her diary entries, which are or you know, she
doesn't hold back.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
No, she is. She's fantastic. She does not mince her words.
Speaker 1 (17:00):
Again, and a historian's dream just to get hold of
all these diaries, I imagine.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Yeah, no, it's fantastic to have that uncensored written word.
Speaker 1 (17:08):
So talk us through who she is? How did she
come to hocm Hall White where she come from?
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Okay? What say? Lady Mary is the youngest daughter of
the Duke of Argyle. She's born in seventeen twenty seven,
and she grows up bile accounts almost completely wild. They
didn't really bother with any sort of schooling or any education.
She just kind of left her own devices in a sort.
Speaker 1 (17:31):
Of quite a like neglected abusive way, or just I.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Think is a bit like sort of a railway children
type vibe. Is okay, I think she's having a great time.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Okay, fair enough, No sympathy for her. She's also crazy
looking as well, and.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
Yeah, she's meant to be this really sort of bizarre coloring,
really pale white hair, kind of really light blonde, almost
white hair, and these brilliant blue eyes.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Wow, really striking, like a like a white walker.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
White cat is what she's called, White Cat, The white cat.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
Oh nice.
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Yeah, she's also a bit feisty. So in seventeen forty seven,
she's twenty years old and she's told by her parents, right, love,
it's time to get married, and we've chosen the lucky gentleman.
The lucky chap is Edward Cook, who's Thomas cookar builder.
That is his only son, his only child.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
And is she happy with that? She is not.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
Happy with this she's not enamored with him. She sort
of puts on a brave face, and he apparently is
very gallant, you know, he comes in and they call
it making love when you come in and read poems
and say, oh, you know, you're the most beautiful woman
I've ever seen in all this.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
And he's just reciting these love poems to this ice
sculpture of a woman's staring at him. Yeah, talking about
a frosty reception.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
So they're eventually married, and she, by this point in time,
has she's worked herself up into a thing of a frenzy.
You're an eighteenth century lady. You might have been kissed
on the hand if you're a bit scandalous, but you've
never been touched. And suddenly you're a wife, and you
know you're expected to lie back and think of England.
And so she's she worked up about this. She's not
(19:17):
looking forward to it. And Edward comes in on the
wedding night and basically says, don't worry, love, I'm not
going to touch you, and goes out drinking with his
friends and sort of comes back in at six in
the morning, absolutely wasted, and that I think that's about
as good as it ever got for their marriage have anything.
They never had any children, they never had any sex actually,
(19:38):
which in the eighteenth century was you just you didn't
hear of it?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Well, I mean, was he that bad?
Speaker 2 (19:45):
I don't know. All accounts of him as a young
man suggests, you know, he's quite handsome, he's quite dapper.
There's all these accounts of them before they're married, and he's,
you know, very attentive and very sweet. And then they
get marriage and it's like the s which has flipped
and he's out every night drinking with his friends and
gambling all of his money away, and he dies in
(20:06):
his early thirties. He drinks himself to death.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
Oh so, and then because of this sort of I
guess resentment of the situation she's been put in, is
that what you think turns her into this sort of
acid penned diary entry.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
I think so it can't have been a very happy time.
She tries to divorce him. That goes poorly. She sort
of says, he beat me, he wants tore my rough,
which in the eighteenth centuries not that much. Quite frankly,
he was legal to beat your wife.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Yeah, just a bit of wife beating. Back then, I
don't know what you complain about love.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
So they're not able to get divorced. She claims that
she was locked here at Hokum up in one of
the upstairs bedrooms.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
But but then her diary entries also then go off
to just not just him, it's everyone else who then
starts getting.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
Yeah, so after he dies, they've been separated before that.
But he dies and she is a widow and she
can kind of come out in society. You know, she's
got no pressure to marry. She can be in society
and she can you know, she knows all the people.
She knows all the royal family, all the sort of
great and good and she just goes to all these
(21:19):
parties and watches people and then writes about them.
Speaker 1 (21:22):
So who are her main targets for her dary entries?
What are the juiciest passages?
Speaker 2 (21:26):
So this is one of my favorite ones. She's writing
here about a lady called the Countess of Waldergrave, who
was widowed and then secretly married another son of the king,
the Duke of Gloucester, which was scandalous because she was
a commoner and a widow, an action and illegitimate daughter.
So she couldn't be marrying the son of the king.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
That is a triple n isn't it so this.
Speaker 2 (21:53):
This marriage was all hush hush. But anyway, Lady Mary
writes the Dowager Countess that some time ago, as soon
as the castle clock up Windsor had struck twelve, and
out of consequence all quiet, she ordered a rocket to
be let off in the Great Walk in Windsor Park,
which it seems was the signal for soon after a
(22:13):
royal chez came down and out of it a certain
duke who usually passed the remaining part of the night
in her lodgings. The rocket at last became such a
ridicule at Windsor that she was obliged to leave it off.
But the chaise with the Duke arrived at the same hour.
His being there five nights a week was known to
(22:34):
all Windsor. What all this is to end in I
don't know, but I think she is very lucky in
getting people to keep her company when she acts in
such a manner.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Wow, shade has been thrown.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
That's an eighteenth century burn right there.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
That is absolutely that is proper. Not mincing your words.
When she has let off a rocket.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
I think she means a firework, which I also quite
enjoy as a covert signal for your lover to come
see you.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Yeah. Absolutely, I'd actually be very, very flattered if if
someone let off a firework for me, I'd take a
lily party popa at this point, now, mister, we're going
for our next quote from Lady Mary Cook.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Okay, so now we've gone to the court in France,
Court of Louis the sixteenth. So if anyone seen Sofia
Coppola's Mary on Twitter, this is what we're imagining. The
Dophile is much green, but not improved. The Conteartois is
handsome and looks lively. The contest of Provence is full
(23:44):
as ugly as she has been represented, very dark, and
her hair on the side of her forehead grows so
forward that it very near joins her eyebrows, which are
very large. She has the most extraordinary nose, and her
teeth are very bad and thick and to the most
ungraceful manner of walking. I ever saw Madam the Dauphin's
(24:06):
elder sister, but thirteen years of age is without exaggeration,
one of the biggest women I ever remember to have seen.
That's grue savage, isn't it well?
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Because also, like you were saying just earlier, in an
age where you know, like even holding hands was looked
at scandalous sexually. The fact that she's gone that, I mean,
that is really for that age is it's absolute hell fire.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
She's gone with barrels there, she's not holding back.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Yeah, and on a thirteen year old, I know, I
quite like the fact that.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
It's thick teeth, thick teeth.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Thick, I don't that's a horrible thing to say. Thick.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
I don't even know what that means, like.
Speaker 1 (24:54):
A horse like three, but in the occupying the space
that's seven or eight should and small, Yeah, thick and
small like chowed chowed teeth. How does she eventually see?
How her days?
Speaker 2 (25:13):
So it's a little bit of a sad end. Actually
she's quite long lived, but as you might expect for
someone who writes the way she does, she doesn't have
many friends by the end of her life, and so
she dies quite alone. Really not the most cheerful ending of.
Speaker 1 (25:28):
What anything in particular just.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
Natural causes old age spite.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
But Catherine, I've heard rumors that allegedly her ghost is
still said to occupy the hall. So in many ways,
she's never left.
Speaker 2 (25:42):
Yeah, I have never seen her. I would love to
see her. But yes, supposedly she still haunts the rooms
that her wicked husband locked her in. So the rooms
she was locked in and our part of the family wing.
It's where the family live, and typically the rooms in
the attic where they put the children to sleep. So
Lady Angelen Connor and her sister, Lady Carey had those
(26:03):
rooms when they were children. And I think it's Lady Carey.
Lady An's sister is absolutely convinced that she was haunted
repeatedly by Lady Mary.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Wow, what did she say she was doing?
Speaker 2 (26:15):
I think generally sort of terrorizing her, making moaning noises,
keeping her up at night.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
I mean, I can't tell you how many white women
ghosts there are in various houses and castles. I mean,
really they are. The Karen stereotype does filter into the
supernatural quite a lot. These women agers will not go
and keep on going.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Imagine being that angry that you can't even let go,
even in death.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
Even in death, come on, get over it. I feel
like Lady Mary would have definitely been a I want
to speak to the manager please.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
I think manager, boss director, tear the company down.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
God, I'd hate to hear what she thought of this podcast. Luckily,
I'm not going to do my impression won't find out. Instead,
we'll just end the episode there. Thank you to Catherine
for chatting to us. She and I will return to
HOKM Hall later in the series to discuss the important
things of life between us three. I don't know what
(27:14):
the biggest animal you think you could take in a
fight is.
Speaker 2 (27:16):
I'm not the biggest person, but I reckon, I reckon,
I could take a shoep I think maybe a large tortoise.
Speaker 1 (27:25):
I can hear Lady Mary turning in her grave. Until then,
sell your manuscripts to Bill Gates, insert yourself into paintings,
and mind your manners. Oh there she is. Thanks for
listening to Bad Manners. If you like the pod, please
share it with your friends, Rate it on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Leave
(27:47):
a review and make sure you spill the tea on
any of your favorite Bad Manners that we could feature
in future episodes. This podcast was produced by Asami Studios
for iHeartRadio. It was hosted by me Tom Horton. It
was produced by William Lensky, Rebecca Rappaport and Chris Ataway.
It was executive produced by Faith Steer and Zad Rogers.
(28:09):
Our production manager is Caitlin Paramore and our production coordinator
is Bellasolini
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.