Ep. 263: Render - Rich Froning, Tennessee Vols, and Osceola

On this special episode of the Bear Grease Render, join host Clay Newcomb and This Country Life Podcast’s Brent Reaves along with Meateater’s Garrett Long and Hunter Spencer from the Meateater Tailgate Tour in Knoxville, Tennessee. Special guest Rich Froning of Mayhem Hunt talks about their mission to emphasize fitness in the hunting realm.  Listen along as the conversation heats up as they discuss the first episode of Bear Grease on the life of Osceola and the connection with members of the Bear Grease Hall of Fame.

If you have comments on the show, send us a note to [e-mail]

Connect with Clay and MeatEater

Clay on Instagram

MeatEater on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, and Youtube Clips

MeatEater Podcast Network on YouTube

Shop Bear Grease Merch

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:14):
My name is Clay Nukleman. This is a production of
the Bear Grease podcast called The Bear Grease Render, where
we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes
of the actual bear Grease podcast. Presented by f HF Gear,
American Maid, purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed

(00:36):
to be as rugged as the place as we explore.
We're in Knoxville, Tennessee, on Meat Eaters game Day. I
have with me this panel of expert analysts of college football,
duck hunting, CrossFit, country living. We got it all here today, folks. Now,

(00:59):
I feel like I'm on the ESPN. Were we are.
We are in downtown Knoxville, Tennessee, within sight of where
Tennessee Balls. They're kind of roll over the tide uh here.
In about five or six hours we are We're at
the Meat Eater tailgate tour, which has been a ton

(01:20):
of fun. I have a very unique group of guests
here with me today. I'll introduce them from right to left.
I've got right here, Hunter Spencer from Meat Eater man
Old Tennessee Ball himself lives in Virginia.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
He's spying on them.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
Hunter. Anything that you see that is graphic graphic design.
Most almost everything is Hunter Spencer, including this cool horn
getting grilled.

Speaker 3 (01:50):
Hunter's looks really confused, right, I thought I was sitting
next to Josh Hippool honestly.

Speaker 2 (01:57):
Josh, I don't even know.

Speaker 1 (02:01):
Really, the head coach of the ball.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
I thought, I thought you got him out here.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
Well, this Hunter Spencer here, we have Josh, Josh Bird
Bird Bird, and you you work with He runs hunt
for us. Yeah, so I kind of got to introduce
you guys together. This is Rich Frowning introduced to me
as the most fit man in America.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
Which formerly let's go we're tired. Now, let's go America
in the world.

Speaker 1 (02:32):
World, in the world. World.

Speaker 2 (02:34):
You're being serious formally okay, fish man in the world.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Let's go, hey man, Yeah, I love it.

Speaker 2 (02:40):
Play a second. That's right.

Speaker 1 (02:42):
Well, all I was gonna say was I mean, you know,
we squirrel hunted yesterday and he couldn't lose me.

Speaker 4 (02:49):
I could tell you we were just creeping. We're just
creeping squirrels to squirrels. Yeah, they lost us.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
So yeah, tell me, how would you introduce you?

Speaker 4 (03:00):
I competed in CrossFit for twelve thirteen years.

Speaker 2 (03:04):
Thirteen years if.

Speaker 4 (03:04):
You count COVID won a couple times as an individual,
one a couple of times on a team, own a
CrossFit gym in Cookville, Tennessee, and now trying to bring
fitness to the hunting space.

Speaker 2 (03:15):
That's our big thing.

Speaker 4 (03:16):
We got into hunting, real passionate about it probably the
last ten years, and so yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:21):
That's what we're doing now. Awesome love hunting.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
And so I let me come back to you guys.
Right after Brent, Brent Reeves and then this guy who's
never been I don't think you've been on the ritter
of this is Garrett Long. Almost everything that's going on
at Meat Eater and even with Bear Grease, this guy's
involved with but kind of behind the scenes. So I'm
really upset that you're here, Garrett, really, man, it's upsetting

(03:45):
Garrett's Garrett's like, he's like, he's my boss, so he's
running in the.

Speaker 2 (03:50):
Show man it. I think.

Speaker 5 (03:52):
The coolest thing I've done at Meat Eater, though, is
I actually hired hunter.

Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah really, yeah he was, he started.

Speaker 6 (03:58):
Man, Wait a minute, me, Yeah, I agree that.

Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, No, tell me, like in the hunting space, it's
clear that you know, in the last at least ten years,
like fitness has come up on the radar of something
that we should all be, you know, as hunters, which
is pretty cool because I think that the narrative for

(04:30):
a lot of the hunting community has not been something
you know, that would be fitness related. And then when
we started, you know, Western hunts and elk hunting kind
of came onto the scene and it's like, hey, a
big limiting factor of success is just being able to
get places. Then you started seeing you know, people marketing

(04:52):
to the fitness.

Speaker 2 (04:54):
Yeah, so we talked about this a little bit yesterday.

Speaker 4 (04:56):
My kind of background is like, originally I was born
in Michigan in Tennessee for thirty plus years, so whitetail
is is kind of for me. And when I started hunting,
whitetail was tough because it's sitting still. I have ADHD
like or add or something. Something's not right. So I'm
a little off, you know, And so that was tough
for me. And so I got into turkey hunting first,

(05:17):
and turkey hunting I fell in love with. And so
you know, it's up down we running gun a lot,
you know in Tennessee. And so I then somebody introduced
me to elk hunting and from then on I was hooked.
And so now I've kind of like made it back
to now whitetail is a passion too. So in that
whole process, you know, I was competing and training and
I'm like, man, there's such a need for like a

(05:37):
little bit of science backed hunting fitness preparation. You know,
there are some other ones out there and good ones
out there, but I feel like we've you know, we've
got fifteen years. I was a next strength and conditioning coach.
I have degree in exercise science. I've competed for years,
and I married the two with the passion that I
have hunting. In the last you know, ten years, I
would say where we got super serious and then Western
hunting in the last six or seven that I've been

(06:00):
like next level passionate about. So yeah, we just kind
of saw the need there. I was like, Hey, I'm
gonna be hunting a lot anyway, I'm gonna be doing
these workouts to prepare myself for hunting. Why not just
offer them to people online. So that's kind of where
Mayhem Hunt started. We have CrossFit Mayhem and we've done
that for twelve or fifteen years and we'll still keep
that up. But man Mayhem hunt and just hunting has
become a huge passion of mine. And I want guys

(06:22):
girls to never have to question, hey, should I go
after that animal because i'ma have to get it out
or either's just no, there's no second thought when we
go out. We're like, all right, I don't care if
it's a thousand feet up, We're gonna get there. We're
gonna get to it and get that animal, and then
we're gonna get it out. So that's just you know,
we want people more confidence of anything of like hey,
I can go out.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
There and do this right.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yeah, yeah, you know. To me, the most positive thing
about when you're combining physical fitness and then hunting, which
we're all passionate about, is like being physically fit is
like a good idea for life in general, you're out
hunting or not, and and so it's it's again just
one of those like tangible and positive things that comes

(07:06):
from being involved in the outdoors.

Speaker 4 (07:08):
Well. And then I mean there's such a crossover too
of like hey, you're harvesting your own meat. It's healthy,
we know where it came from. It's not going to
a store. It's not overly processed, it's not given all
these antibiotics and stuff. So you know, if we can
get this healthy, clean meat and then also fuel ourselves
for these it's it just it's it makes sense. And
then you know, we've talked about it too. Like my personality,

(07:30):
I'm just a competitor, right, So, like my whole life
has been. I'm one of thirty two first cousins on
my mom's side, twenty five or boys, and everything we
did was a competition, and so that's just who I am, right,
So I competed for years and then when I got done,
I'm like, man, I still need to compete and still
have that and hunting. I mean, we talked about it yesterday.
It's the original competition, right, like us versus that animal.

(07:52):
And so for me, I feel like that draw of
just the competition side of it is just who I am.
And then you got the like team aspect of it.
I you know, all these guys are going solo. Hunt's
good for you. I like, you know, if I've got
one other person and there's a team and we're kind
of like figuring out a plan, there's like just there's
something to it.

Speaker 2 (08:10):
And so all of it.

Speaker 4 (08:12):
What I've done in the past, Mary's super well to
what we're doing now, and man, I just it just
blessed to be where we're at.

Speaker 2 (08:19):
Man, I love love it.

Speaker 1 (08:21):
I'm trying to Garrett, let's let's combine our heads here,
Hunter and Brent. What what would you ask the fittest
man in the world if he were sitting by you, Like,
what intelligent question would you ask them?

Speaker 2 (08:35):
Like?

Speaker 1 (08:35):
Because it's going to take all listen, listen, here's the
best analogy. If I was if I was sitting next
to the owner of the finest mule in America, I
would have a hundred questions.

Speaker 2 (08:49):
For Hey, father of the American mule? Who is it?

Speaker 1 (08:52):
George wah nice? Hey, come on dude, all right, who
are you talking?

Speaker 2 (08:56):
Too easy? Sorry?

Speaker 1 (08:56):
It's like who invented crossfild?

Speaker 2 (08:58):
All right? All right? Great?

Speaker 6 (08:59):
Are already said? Is motivation? And that would have been
my question?

Speaker 2 (09:04):
Motivation the motivator?

Speaker 4 (09:06):
Well, you know the coolest part two is you know
my kids. So you guys have seen my kids are
around all the time, birds.

Speaker 2 (09:11):
Kids are out here.

Speaker 4 (09:13):
Well, but I want to impact, Like you know, I've
never once told my kids, hey, let's go do a workout,
but they see me and Lakeland will go down there.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
All of my kids will be like, hey, I'm gonna
work out with you, you.

Speaker 4 (09:24):
Know, and they're doing their own thing. We're not loading
them up with a barbell. We're not like making them
do anything, but they want to do it. So then
you like, I'm doing a workout and I just look
over and they're doing it right. Well, then the hunting
now too, Like I've been out six or seven times
and my kids have been with me five of the times.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
The Trice was with me when we harvested a dough.

Speaker 4 (09:41):
The other other afternoon morning and he was fired up,
and my you know, like it's awesome.

Speaker 2 (09:46):
It's there.

Speaker 4 (09:47):
They want to be with me, and that's what I want, right,
So I want to impact them from the physical side
of like, hey want them to be in better shape
and and just you know, a lifestyle of fitness. But
then also the outdoors, like it's it's just in a
good spot.

Speaker 2 (10:00):
Yeah, I think to your to your question.

Speaker 5 (10:04):
We talked about a little bit yesterday, But there's workout
programs out there for getting outside and everything. But man,
and I've I've I've been fortunate to work out a
decent amount of my life.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
But oh really, I never would have guessed.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
They thank you, but they break out.

Speaker 5 (10:22):
They breaks me right, Like I I love, I get started,
I find myself getting started, and then three weeks in
like it is a lifestyle that and maybe I'm just
not tough enough. I just like can't continue. My body
is breaking down and old thirty three.

Speaker 2 (10:39):
Yeah, ex accurate.

Speaker 5 (10:40):
I'm just kidding, But I think, like I think my
my my question is is like, if you're not a
dude that's already just getting it, Like, how much is
too much?

Speaker 2 (10:50):
Right? Like?

Speaker 5 (10:50):
What what is the proper level of training if a
guy's coming out west on his first el cunt? Like,
is it just seven days a week to like to
failure every and that's the mentality should have?

Speaker 2 (11:02):
Or is there a middle ground to get you out
in the feet? Yeah?

Speaker 4 (11:05):
And so I feel like that's something that we have
or we've kind of like, you know, we've got the
background of we have the CrossFit gym that we've had
for fifteen years, and you know, we've got our youngest
member we talked yesterday's five years old and our oldest
is eighty three or eighty four years old. So like
we have the full range, and so we've been able
to see, hey, you know, what can some people do,
and like you're at a very entry level and we've

(11:28):
kind of on what we're doing now is like putting
a little bit of science behind that instead of just
hammering guys all the time, which you still need to do, right,
You've still got to like prepare because there is a
mental aspect of it. Anybody who's been out west, like,
you've got to be able to grind because there are
you know, those days where it's up down physically but
also mentally and emotionally, and so you've got to have

(11:49):
those days. But then also like we know that four
or five weeks is about as hard as you can push,
and then you maybe need to take a week where
you just kind of, hey, like let's move still. You know,
starting out maybe three or four days a week, and
then you know you could bump it up. I we
were talking yesterday. I like to work out seven days
a week. It's my mentality. It's almost like it's something

(12:09):
I have to do right, It's just clear my head.

Speaker 2 (12:12):
It's got to get that hit, whatever it is.

Speaker 4 (12:14):
But for most guys, starting out three days a week,
it's gonna be a lot, you know, And so you
can once you do a couple weeks of that, maybe
add a fourth day.

Speaker 2 (12:22):
Hey, four days too many?

Speaker 4 (12:23):
Like there is And that's one of the things we're
trying to do is like, hey, we're gonna build a
community where guys can get on there, girls can get
on there and talk and feel like, hey, you know, hey,
this is what I'm doing. I'm feeling like this, you know,
any help there. So that's that's what we're trying to do,
is take the kind of approach we've done with CrossFit,
of like, hey, we know our program is the best,
but also the community side of like hey, let's let's

(12:45):
you know, ask some questions and do some stuff like
that too.

Speaker 2 (12:48):
Yeah. And the Thursdays for us is usually a off
ish day, so Thursdays and Sundays. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:54):
So, And to answer the question, as a normal average
forty three year old guy work like working out with him,
I know he works out two days a week. I
can usually two times, two times a day. I can
go Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday usually and work out with him.
But by Thursday I'm probably just taking off completely just

(13:15):
because I mean, I can't do it anymore. You know,
like my body's worn down, I need to day. I
need just to arrest day completely. So it is listened
to your body. And but we do take Thursdays, Saturdays
and as like active recovery, and then Sundays is usually
just completely off. So we have that broken in there
pretty good.

Speaker 7 (13:33):
All right, I gotta cool. I got a question.

Speaker 3 (13:35):
So I'm thinking of a football question for you about
tonight coach.

Speaker 2 (13:39):
On first down, they'll never expect it.

Speaker 7 (13:43):
So trying to like maybe compare it to hunting. So
if you got somebody that's never hunted and they've got
aspirations to be a big game hunter, you kind of
figure out a path that they'll start smoking with it.
So I'll say the same thing with getting fitter, a
better version of you. What what's that first step look like?

Speaker 4 (14:02):
Doing something? Doing anything like moving three four days a week.
You know, I when you know, when I was early
on in CrossFit, I was like, you have to do CrossFit.
The only way to get fitter is doing CrossFit. I'm
not that mentality anymore. Like I think CrossFit or some
variation like ours isn't is a little bit of CrossFit.
There's a lot less gymnastics, a lot more grunt work,

(14:24):
a little bit less super high intensity all the time,
because that does wear you out.

Speaker 2 (14:29):
But man, it's just getting started.

Speaker 4 (14:31):
Doing something is better than nothing. And then you know,
like to start this momentum. And it's day after day
and you know, I my personal kind of values are faith, family, fitness, right,
and so every day I try to sit down at
the end of the day and be as objective as possible.

Speaker 2 (14:49):
How did I do faith? Wise? Did I get in
the word? Whatever?

Speaker 4 (14:52):
Did I do good? And and try to give myself,
you know, one through ten? Same with family? Did I
spend time? Quality time?

Speaker 2 (14:59):
And then fit?

Speaker 4 (15:00):
And then short memory when you do good because next
day it's a new day. And short memory when you
do bad as well, because then you got to just like, hey,
we got to reset today.

Speaker 2 (15:08):
It's fitness.

Speaker 4 (15:09):
All that stuff is like it just compounds, right, and
so it's all about momentum and just get do something right. Yeah,
twenty minute walk, you know, do that a couple of
days a week, add thirty minutes or add a little
bit of wait, whatever you want to do.

Speaker 1 (15:21):
You know, I think I think a lot of times
people are including me, are intimidated by guys that are
really good, that are kind of the leaders in this space, right.
I mean, it's like we're not having we're not having,
you know, somebody that's not good at this, like being
the spokesman for fitness. That's always somebody like you and
and sometimes it's hard to be like, well, I can't

(15:44):
be a professional or I can't and what you I
appreciate what you said because I mean that's kind of
the way that I've I think about fitness. I don't
talk about fitness, right, but it's like something that's how
my mind is to is to just do something, you know,
and and I do some running, do some in the
last two years, have done some.

Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, we talked yesterday.

Speaker 1 (16:06):
It was pretty pretty disciplined, you know, three four times
a week at a gym doing Staremaster. Just because I'm
I'm forty five and a man. I feel my body
just kind of.

Speaker 2 (16:16):
Like the strength, the strength was starting to fall off.

Speaker 1 (16:18):
Yeah, yeah, and uh, like just doing something is better
than nothing.

Speaker 2 (16:23):
I can tell you that.

Speaker 5 (16:24):
The frustrating thing with running with Clays, He's one of
those guys. At half a mile in he goes, God,
I'm tired, and You're like oh, you're tired. Good and
you're like and so you're like, okay, I'm kind of
tired to you. And then a mile and he's like, oh,
I'm tired. Then like three miles in he's like, oh,
I'm tired. You're like, when are you gonna side? It
just keeps grinding. He him and Giannis they burned me

(16:47):
one day on the mountain. We were we went for
a little run before I go to market meeting and
I hung with him for like it was a lot
for me. It was a long run. It was a
ten mile run. I think I hung with him for
like eight and the final how I'm like, I gotta
go to the bathroom. I'm sorry, I got my shoes.
I gotta do something.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
I gotta Yeah, Hey, I want to let's talk about
football for a moment now, Coach Hunter, Coach you you
went to the University of Tennessee and what and what
did you study there?

Speaker 2 (17:22):
Art? Art?

Speaker 1 (17:23):
But you're from Virginia correct, But you're big balls man,
big time.

Speaker 7 (17:27):
And your wife I suffered through yeah, and my wife
went here for veterinary Yeah.

Speaker 1 (17:32):
I mean, like, what's it what's it like, what's it
like to be wearing the Orange.

Speaker 7 (17:36):
Oh it's good, especially on a day like today. I
mean it's just third Saturday in October. That's get any bigger.
So we just need we need a Saturday like we
had in twenty two.

Speaker 1 (17:46):
Okay, yeah, so what what will they do if they
beat Alabama today? Like I've heard it said twice.

Speaker 7 (17:52):
Now, the gold post will come down? You think in
the water it could be.

Speaker 1 (17:57):
Okay, so that we're right here on the tennis.

Speaker 7 (18:00):
Because we got the playoffs sort of lost win this.
If we win this, still got to play Georgia. We
still got to play Georgia. But if you can go
ten and two, you've got an sec guy right here.
Of course too, you've got a good shot. Give you
that making it we How late is the Georgia Get
over at his shirt right now? We lost? We got

(18:22):
one of those losses there, so we were hoping it
would just be Alabama and Georgia.

Speaker 2 (18:26):
How late is the Georgia game.

Speaker 4 (18:28):
That's the hard part too, is you've got to time
your losses correctly, you know, like I think.

Speaker 7 (18:33):
It's a night is it? Is it a night game
today or is it the same time?

Speaker 4 (18:37):
No?

Speaker 2 (18:37):
I'm saying, like, when do you guys play Georgia.

Speaker 7 (18:39):
Oh it's at Georgia. I think it's a day game
at Georgia.

Speaker 2 (18:42):
Win the season.

Speaker 7 (18:44):
Sorry, we've got to buy next week. I think Kentucky,
then I think Georgia.

Speaker 2 (18:50):
That's enough.

Speaker 1 (18:51):
What I thought was cool is that if they you know,
sometimes when they win, this is a huge wear down
the goalpost. Bring it to the Tennessee River. Throw the
kid there, Bandy.

Speaker 2 (19:04):
That would be the second time because Bandy.

Speaker 4 (19:07):
Did it to two weeks ago, Bandy beat Bama and
they carried it to the Cumberland.

Speaker 1 (19:12):
Which is a much further that much. I was thinking
about crappie structure down on the bottom.

Speaker 7 (19:18):
And we've got a hundred and two thousand. Yeah, when
they stand like fifty tops, so they covered like half
of the field when they started.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
Yeah, that's great, that's great, Brent. What kind of shirt
you were in there? Oh well, this is what were
you doing two weeks ago?

Speaker 2 (19:40):
Two weeks ago I was celebrating. Were you at the game?
I was not? Do you know who they're playing today?
They're playing you gotta know you were over here? Really?

Speaker 6 (19:51):
Oh yeah, communists, but welcome, he's French.

Speaker 2 (19:57):
That's literally French there, yeh w I'm sorry. I was
so good. We're glad you're here.

Speaker 6 (20:05):
I get one opportunity every now and then a blind
hole literally finds out literally, and that's that's what we season.

Speaker 7 (20:14):
I'd send him text all the time. When Tennessee was winning,
I get everything sarcastic back. So as soon as we
lost Arkansas.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
I just I just almost wore.

Speaker 4 (20:24):
I almost wore my Notre Dame baseball jersey here just
for but I didn't.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
I didn't. This was the last time we were here.

Speaker 1 (20:29):
Yeah, yeah, we were rich. But you're not a Tennessee fan.

Speaker 2 (20:33):
No, I'm a Notre Dame fan. My grandpa went to
Notre Dame.

Speaker 4 (20:36):
My family's Catholic and Irish, so I've been stuck with
Notre Dame my whole life.

Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah it's been rough, you know.

Speaker 5 (20:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (20:43):
No, I mean I tried to get behind Tennessee when
they were bad for a while because I could tolerate
the fans, and then as soon as they started winning again,
I was like, man, he was just obnoxious, you know.

Speaker 2 (20:53):
Like that's like, you know, I went hard.

Speaker 4 (20:57):
I mean, I'm a I'm a Notre Dame in a
Detroit sports fan, So don't talk to me about hard time. Yeah,
thirty seven years of hard times.

Speaker 2 (21:06):
Rich you got.

Speaker 7 (21:08):
Here.

Speaker 2 (21:09):
That's true, that's true, that's true.

Speaker 1 (21:10):
You know the good thing about being from Arkansas, and
this is true. We have no professional sports teams. We
have one bigger uh Division one school. There are other
Division one schools, but without a doubt, everybody in Arkansas
is rooting for the Razorbacks. Like when I think about Alabama,

(21:31):
haven't having a divided a divided state. Uh, It's it's
kind of weird to me to think that you would
have that kind of vitriol against like people in your
own state, you know, like Alabama and Auburn and all this.
But in Arkansas, man, that's.

Speaker 7 (21:44):
All we got when we beat John Daily and golf
for a long time, we did.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
We had him for a.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
While, still got him. I mean he's still there.

Speaker 1 (21:51):
Yeah, yeah, but not so as you all know, we
usually on the render and we'll day we uh we
talk about the last podcast that came out. Anybody has
anybody else got anything else they want to say? Before
we talk about that cash shirt?

Speaker 2 (22:14):
It's hot. Keep that there's no.

Speaker 1 (22:18):
Keep that down.

Speaker 2 (22:21):
Now.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
This I told I told Hunter had been cool. If
we were at like Florida State. And then we were
talking about this, this series I've been I've been working
on it for a long time. I think I read
the first book about Oola like a year and a
half ago, and it Sometimes these series, people ask me

(22:43):
a lot of times, like how long do you work
on a series? And they're all different. Sometimes they come
together real quick, but then other times they're like long
and drawn out. This one was long and drawn out,
and it took us that long to find the right
people to tell the story. And and sometimes I'll start
a series that ends with me, well, in my mind,

(23:04):
a potential series, and I never do it because I
never find the right people. And I actually thought that
might be what happened with ostiolas I did, I did,
and and even uh, there's gonna be a new guest later.

Speaker 2 (23:18):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (23:18):
We talked to one of the Florida seminoles, and then
I had known Sterling Harjoe for a while and so
I knew he was gonna be great. But he's not
a historian's he's a seminole and just kind of knows,
you know. I was really interested in how he would
have viewed Ostiola. And then we found Jake Tiger this
young young guy in Oklahoma, which was a great help.

(23:41):
But Patricia Wickman, she's retired and was like Josh Spilmmaker,
helped me a lot on this one. She was very
difficult to find. She's not she's not in.

Speaker 4 (23:52):
The Yeah she correct an person.

Speaker 1 (23:56):
Yeah, yeah, man. She totally is like she she she.

Speaker 4 (24:01):
Reprimanded you, like twice. She was put your drink on
the coaster. I was like, all right, mom. I felt
like it hit me hard, you know.

Speaker 1 (24:11):
I was like, yeah, well, I was the only reason
I could share that with the world. That section was
because of how wonderful lady she was. She she was
so excited that that I was there. But I really
appreciate that kind of frank, don't do that.

Speaker 3 (24:29):
Don't do that, no problem, it's man, yeah, take your
shoes off at the door.

Speaker 1 (24:34):
I said it. I said it, and I meant it.
I interview a ton of people, and of all different
types of people, she was, and I'll go ahead and
say it, the most passionate, knowledgeable and able to communicate
about her sphere of expertise than anybody I've ever dolt.

(24:57):
And she's she's been retired for years. I don't want
to say how old she is, but well I better
not do that. She's retired. So but I mean just
sharpest attack, and and I'm still a little bit nervous
about like how I did, Like we kind of had

(25:18):
to convince her that we were going to handle this
story with hair and she was very concerned about us
getting it right, you know. And so but she was
a wonderful, wonderful lady. And we'll be hearing from her
on the lat in the next two episodes. I'll go
ahead and foreshadow a bit. So this the second podcast
is basically going to be about the war years of Osceola,

(25:40):
when he actually retreated into Florida and all the stuff
they did was just wild. The the third episode is
gonna be about I usually don't do this, Rich doing
this for you for me because you're the world's fittest athlete.
For formally, uh, We're gonna do a whole podcast on

(26:01):
Ossio's death, Yeah, because.

Speaker 4 (26:05):
Like the what the aftermath and or just the was
all kinds of like conspiracy behind it or.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
Let me just I want to give give spiel like
I did you yesterday at dinner, give him a little bit,
just a little bit Ostiola was he went, he ended
up going to prison. He was tricked by the American
government and captured and went to prison. While he was
in prison, WHI, no, we can't go down mouse yet. Uh.

(26:36):
He was. He was in prison in South Carolina and
they took him to a play in Charleston, like a
like a like a Broadway play. And when he went
into the play, he was view he's a prisoner of
they they took him in into the play, no, to
watch the play, and when he was there, they applauded him.

(26:59):
This is Ossio, the great King, you know, the great
war leader of the Seminoles were actively in war. It
would be like us taken, you know, in the nineties,
taking Saddam Hussein and out of prison to go watch
a Broadway play in the American public going we love
this guy. Really yeah, so weird because he was a
he was a global you had global fame. And and

(27:22):
that to me points back to what I tried to
paint a picture of is how the American public viewed
these Native American leaders, which is such.

Speaker 2 (27:30):
A weird philosopher, weird money.

Speaker 1 (27:32):
We needed to get rid of them, take their land,
do whatever it took to displace them. But we we like,
you know, handle it. We treated him like like comic
book characters, you know, like mythical creatures, and which is
so wild. And then maybe that's all I should give.

(27:54):
But he ends up dying in prison, and and to
this day there is still an ongoing search for Osciola's head.
That's all I'm gonna say.

Speaker 7 (28:06):
You're talking about the portraits to the artists that would
stack up.

Speaker 1 (28:10):
Yeah, yeah, I kind of mentioned it. Yeah, when he
was in prison, you know, the the the currency of
the day for people to engage, you know, visually, they
didn't have photographer, theyd have video, but people painted portraits
like it was big time. You would have portraits painted
of your family and your grandfathers, and that's all they had.
And I mean yeah, the greatest artists in the country

(28:33):
flocked to South Carolina to that prison to paint Osciola.
In the last days of his life, he spent modeling.
He would put on his best clothes and all his
accouterments and all he had all kind of little things
that he wore, big ostrich plume and uh and he
literally George Catlan finished that most famous painting that I

(28:54):
put on Instagram two days before Osceola died in prison.

Speaker 5 (28:58):
Really yeah, and that type of behavior, it's just it
seems like they knew they were a part of a
like a big part of history in the moment. I
think sometimes we don't do that right now, but like
to take him and be detached enough to take him
to a play to show off to everybody is saying like,
this guy is going to be living infamy forever, right,

(29:20):
He's a part of our history. And it's still he's
still alive, it's still happening. And then he got all
those painters that are like, this is happening now. I
think we lose sight of that a little bit right now, right, Yeah,
it's just super interesting.

Speaker 6 (29:33):
Yeah, and he was only thirty four years old, and
he didn't look sick in that picture either, and then
he died.

Speaker 2 (29:40):
I noticed that, right though. Yeah it was a painting.
It wasn't, you know, make me look good. It made
me look good.

Speaker 1 (29:50):
So so what I'll I think, what the way we'll
we'll talk about this is, uh, I just kind of
go around and just tell me what stood out to you,
like just what was interesting or or maybe why you
didn't know or how much you knew about Osceola before
or talk about my guests. You know Sterling Harjoe. Would
would you have known who Sterling Harjoe was? Okay, I didn't.

(30:12):
I didn't really give him a proper introduction. Sterling Harjoe
is a is A is a filmmaker. He just was
nominated for is it an Emmy?

Speaker 2 (30:26):
Like?

Speaker 1 (30:27):
He's a he is a up and coming he just
got a big time award in the in the It
wasn't an Emmy. Yeah, he's a cool guy, so he
he was, Uh, but it was cool hearing him. But anyway, Hunter,
what stood out to you?

Speaker 7 (30:43):
I mean, I'd probably say getting pushed out of Alabama
during the Muskogee uh Creek era and and and just
what was going through their minds and in the establishment
and how things were set up, what to Kompsa's influence
and things like that.

Speaker 1 (31:04):
Wasn't that cool?

Speaker 7 (31:05):
Yeah? You know you kind of wish you knew somehow,
like did these paths cross?

Speaker 5 (31:11):
Yeah?

Speaker 7 (31:11):
Yeah, you know, you have no way of I guess
really knowing. But now and again the short timeline. He
died at thirty four, he goes there at ten, So
you're looking at a very small window of what brought
him to popularity.

Speaker 1 (31:30):
Well, I think what isn't really even debatable is that
his family was heavily influenced by Takumsa. They would have
been in his presence and heard to comes to speak. Yeah,
and then these are the people that went and raised Osil,
you know. So like whether he would have even seen Osill,
I mean, he would have been like if he was

(31:51):
born in eighteen oh four, which they really don't even
know for sure if that's when he was born. But
if he was born in eighteen oh four to come
to for sure came in eighteen eleven, so he would
have been like seven years old, is that right, Yeah,
seven years old. He would have just been a du Yeah.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
Yeah, yeah. He might have squirrels, you know.

Speaker 1 (32:10):
Yeah exactly. He would have known something happened was happening.
That was cool, Yeah, but he wouldn't have been paying attention.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
Brains not processing in that at that situe.

Speaker 1 (32:18):
Well nowadays, but that uh, I almost had my wife
as a little insert guest, but it was a little
too deep of a rabbit hole. Misty. She studies a
lot about human development and child development, and there was
this big research project that just came out that highlighted
the ages of nine to thirteen as the most important

(32:40):
years for long term identity. And what they did was
they there was a study about Japanese kids, and they
raised people that had Japanese parents in America until the
age of nine, and then their family moved back to Japan,

(33:05):
and those kids, as they grew up, viewed themselves as Japanese. Okay,
the other set of the of the of the test,
the test was there were the family kids that were
raised in Japan from the age of zero to nine
and then they moved to America from the ages of

(33:27):
nine to thirteen, and those kids viewed themselves as Americans.
Do you see because like kids are now, you know,
like yeah, like law, they right now are just trying
to figure who am I? You know, They're just like
shut shut. So my wife told me about that, and

(33:52):
I was going to have her on to tell that story.
But it was super fascinating because you wouldn't think that
would You would think the kids that were born in
Japan and lived there till there were nine would be
considered themselves Japanese for the rest of their life. But
it was it was actually opposite of that because that
so so Osceola would have been.

Speaker 7 (34:11):
Yeah, that he too.

Speaker 1 (34:13):
He was in the fire years of their family, implementing
that Nativist revival of like we got to get rid
of all this European influence. But all that stuff is
so fascinating and I love it when we bring in
back up a Bear Grease Hall of Famer. So rich
we have a we have a legitimate bear Grease Hall

(34:33):
of Fame. We're actually we haven't. We haven't done a
Hall of Fame induction in two years. Who were about
to start the last one would have been, Uh, that's
a good question. The Halt Caller. Yeah, I think guy
named Halt Collier from Mississippi. The Beargreas Hall of Fame
is interesting that some living guys that are still alive

(34:54):
today and then some historical characters like Daniel Boone Halt Callier. Uh,
Tacumsa is a bear Grease Hall of Famer, but it's
also uh speaking of Tennessee, my dear dear friend Roy
Clark in East Tennessee Laurel Mountain plots, he's he's still
my daughter hunted with them last week. But uh, anyway,

(35:16):
we're about to the next time we get the regular
render crew together. We're actually going to do a new
Bear Grease induction. We're gonna have a you have.

Speaker 2 (35:26):
A vote on the show where you just say, hey,
we're doing we have it, we have it.

Speaker 1 (35:30):
Well, I call it's very formal, very formal, and I
called to you know, I put the nominations on the
table and then then we vote. But it's kind of
got to be the people that are regularly because you know,
I don't know where Josh stands on some of this stuff.
Losing you know, we can't have him, and then.

Speaker 2 (35:57):
You pick your jury.

Speaker 4 (36:00):
All of course, we always we always say it, ma'ham
at state run media, we can.

Speaker 2 (36:08):
Put out whatever we want.

Speaker 1 (36:10):
Yeah, nor Frank exactly. Yeah. Yeah. So we are going
to have a new induction at some point in the
next two months, so be ready for that. Okay, uh, Josh,
what's what's that to you? Man?

Speaker 3 (36:23):
Something we talked about and it's super unfortunate, but just
for one that their history is not necessarily written, right,
it's it's spoken. So for one, you don't know, stories
get twisted tradition, you know, And what's super unfortunate about
it is all history that is written. You usually have
a winner side and a loser side. Right, there's two

(36:45):
different I'm glad I went first. We've talked about a lot,
but there's two different sides of it, and that perspective
is always going to be different. So for really just
all Native Americans, we we have the story is that
we don't know if it's one hundred percent accurate, and
then we have this other side, which is a totally
different perspective, you know. So just to hear this and

(37:08):
then she was an expert on it, and just to
hear you know, just yeah, it was really cool to
hear that, because you don't know. You hear things and
you say, well, you see that, but then you you
read something else. So uh, it was super cool just
to kind of hear that side of it.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
Man.

Speaker 1 (37:25):
The analogy that we use to describe, you know, I
thought it was pretty pretty powerful, and and I use
that analogy on myself. I mean, I'm the one who
said it, but I was thinking about it, like what
if somebody from another place did not speak my language,
just observed my life for however long, and then they

(37:46):
were the ones that wrote the history books about me
and told about my motivations and what I did. But
then they also wanted my land.

Speaker 2 (37:53):
It's called social media.

Speaker 1 (37:54):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean it's just like how accurate
could it be?

Speaker 7 (38:00):
Well to that? To double down on Josh's point, it's
like as you were saying, you got the Florida seminoles
have one thought in view versus say the ones in Oklahoma, Yeah,
saying completely different things. So not only is it already
not written, but you've got fractions of that.

Speaker 4 (38:20):
Even in the written stuff, you got fractions because you
have a use today's perspectives. You have a right and
a left, and so like if you read one side,
it's so tough. Yeah, and so think about adding two
hundred years to that. Like when they read about what's
going on now, you know, like who are they reading?

Speaker 1 (38:38):
Yeah yeah yeah, That's what I like to do on
these is just there's no answer, but just it like
makes you makes you think about it from just a
different perspective. You know, you're just a little more empathetic
towards people, you know when you because I think one
thing that that's what interests me is looking at a
story that from one person spective to another could be

(39:01):
completely different, and both side says a story are right, yep,
Like there you know, are are good people have the
right motivation, but like, the perspective on the story completely
changes the way you see it. So it's like I'm
sitting here from this chair as an Arkansas Razorback fan
and uh and knowing that I'm right, knowing that my

(39:22):
team's the best team, but it's possible that somebody could
have a different view that would be equal to mine.
It's really weird to me, but and more correct, what
rich what stood out to you?

Speaker 7 (39:42):
Man?

Speaker 4 (39:42):
I've got so I'm we were talking yesterday. I've I've
got a weird not a weird, but I have an
American history obsession. So I started reading the O'Reilly killing
books and one of them is killing Crazy Horse, And
so it goes through it does it's not just about
kill a crazy horse, because he's kind of towards the
end of what we'll say, at the eradication of Native
Americans throughout the country. So but it goes you know,

(40:02):
geographical section bisection and I'm sure and I don't remember
because it's been a while since I read about Osciola
was in there, I'm sure. And so you have that perspective, right,
And so it paints Andrew Jackson is this villain, right?

Speaker 2 (40:13):
You know, he was this terrible, awful human being.

Speaker 4 (40:15):
Well, then now I have this through reading those books,
I have this, all right, I'm gonna read a biography
on every US president and so when I get to Jackson,
I have this kind of like bad taste. And I
read that book and I'm like, from his perspective, and
I'm just putting this as me putting my viewpoint on
from reading the book, God, Family Country, and I'm like,

(40:40):
that aligns with my views.

Speaker 2 (40:41):
You know, did he do it right?

Speaker 4 (40:42):
Absolutely not. But it's it goes back to that perspective
of like who's telling the story right? And and you know,
you look at today, right, and we have this crazy
election coming up. We won't get political, but it's like
there's two sides to every story, and there's bits on
both sides that are right, and there's bits on both
eyes that are wrong. Yeah, and so man, it is
so when we're you know, you're listening to her, You're like, yeah,

(41:04):
this is you know, like I'm behind this. And then
I step back and I read from Andrew. Now it
wasn't even Andrew Jackson's perspective. It was a third party.
But you're just like.

Speaker 2 (41:12):
That's I believe in a lot of those.

Speaker 4 (41:14):
So it's so hard to then one hundred two hundred
years ago have that different and so it's just so hard, right,
you know, you just come off Columbus Day and everybody's
politics on that and you're just like, hey, history is rough,
you know, and in both sides there's bad and there's.

Speaker 7 (41:31):
Good, right, and it's and it places that importance on
like who's telling this story telling the story because like
doctor Wickman, you know, her passion behind it kind of
sort of came yeah, exactly. So whether it's Ossiola or
somebody else, it's when you get that passionate storyteller behind
it starts to skew you.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
That's why history is so important.

Speaker 4 (41:53):
You know, there was whole cancel every history everywhere, and
you're like, nah, man, we need to like we need
to have some perspective, not believe everything we read obviously, like,
but it's just it's it's history is important.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
Yeah, there's a This will be on one of the
next episodes. But I had an interesting little section of
conversation with Sterling Harjoe, who is a Seminole creek in Oklahoma,
and basically he started talking about the conflicted position that

(42:28):
he has. He's like, man, I love America. I mean,
he he's the he's more American than me. He's like,
he loves America. But he's like, but it's kind of
weird because America literally tried to kill every member of
my all my ancestors, like wanted them dead.

Speaker 2 (42:49):
In different ways too, you know.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
And and and so he's like, and here we are
in schools like pledge and allegiance to the flag. And
he's like, I was, it's always kind of weird to me.
But he had such a what when you hear it,
it's real interesting because he's not he is not he's
not embittered or anything. He yeah, but it's still very real.
I mean even today inside the tribes, I mean sometimes

(43:14):
it's like, man, that stuff happened so long ago. That's
a long time ago.

Speaker 2 (43:18):
Man.

Speaker 1 (43:19):
The tribes in Oklahoma are well, it's not even it's
not even they're not even looking back on fresh stuff
or you know, the old stuff they're looking back on.
And I certainly don't speak for them, but just today
struggles with their sovereignty, like because it's a real weird situation,

(43:39):
unique situation in Oklahoma, where there's I don't know how
many different sovereign nations there are in Oklahoma. Are you're
driving to Oklahoma, you're driving into a different country.

Speaker 4 (43:49):
Aren't they trying to sue for some land too? There
was something going on.

Speaker 1 (43:53):
There's a lot always going on over there.

Speaker 5 (43:55):
Yeah, I think it shows man, Uh Like it depends
on how far back in history you look. Like his
sentiment about pledging allegiance to the flag, then like, let's
take into consideration why all of us are here right
now and making the jump across the pond, and what
was going on over there, and we were trying to
get away from people doing to us what we ended

(44:16):
up doing to other people. And it's just like you
can keep doing that all the way back to the
first couple of hundred people that were here, right, And
it's just there's always somebody trying to take what they
don't have, and there's always somebody giving it up.

Speaker 2 (44:30):
But that's just the way that history works, right, It
just keeps rolling. Yeah.

Speaker 5 (44:33):
It doesn't make it good, No, it doesn't make it better,
It doesn't make it easier, but it's important.

Speaker 2 (44:38):
It is a reality of history.

Speaker 1 (44:40):
Yeah, Brent's out to you.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
I liked it.

Speaker 6 (44:43):
You know, forever in history books and movies or whatever,
Native Americans were portrayed as savages, and that's what they
were referred to as.

Speaker 2 (44:52):
That they had enough.

Speaker 6 (44:55):
Sense and enough self awareness to know that they could
just settle dispute on the battlefield, or they could settle
dispute on the ball field. And they and they played
that game, and then there may have been some folks
that died in it, which is unfortunate. But I mean,
I mean, that's really taking one for the team, lit literally,

(45:19):
but they're they're setting settling disputes like that back then,
instead of wiping out whole communities, they settled it there.

Speaker 2 (45:27):
And if we're going.

Speaker 6 (45:29):
By that, that creed that example that they that they did,
I guess we now own Tennessee.

Speaker 2 (45:39):
This is now Arkansas. I was watching how I Am
the Captain? Look at me? So when lu wins today,
then that we.

Speaker 6 (45:56):
But that was that was really interesting to me, that
that was that far back that they had enough foresight
to think, you know, we're we're wasting each other. But
if we're going to if we're going to douke it out,
and there's no getting around it, let's let's play this game.

Speaker 2 (46:12):
Yeah there was.

Speaker 1 (46:13):
Doctor Wickman talked about that a little bit more that
I just didn't have time to put on there. But
uh that game was called some of them called it
the Little Brother of War. That was what they referred
to describe it was. It was almost in these conversations.
I love it because a lot of times there's just

(46:34):
this little little tangent that I didn't see coming. And
that was one of She wasn't even wanting to talk
about ball She was wanting to talk about how they
didn't have long term cities built like they were nomadic,
and she was using an example and said, when they
get when a ballpole gets struck, they'll move then never
go back. And then I was like, wait a minute,

(46:55):
what's a ballpole? And then she kind of went into that,
But uh so I don't actually don't know what it
was or how they I think.

Speaker 4 (47:03):
That's important to the story though, because you know, to
his perspective, us saying savages or hearing savages.

Speaker 2 (47:08):
When you're growing up or whatever.

Speaker 4 (47:09):
You know, it's not as common now, but that's shows
you one way, they weren't savage, So it's almost like it,
you know, it would have been cool you know, I'll
google it. I'm sure we can find it out o somebody.
There's a Wikipedia about it somewhere a bit.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Geatt, what's stood out to you?

Speaker 5 (47:28):
And uh, I'd love to give you like some romantic,
nuanced perspective.

Speaker 2 (47:34):
I've been thinking about it.

Speaker 5 (47:35):
But probably one of my takeaways, Uh, I have been
listening to John Anderson for a long time and had
no idea what that song was talking about or who
he was with Ossiola, Like I've I've I've sang that
part of the song.

Speaker 2 (47:51):
You know, heard Ossiola Crome. No, I just you know, never.

Speaker 4 (47:58):
When you said yesterday, hey, listen the podcast for tomorrow,
I was like, oh, cool, it's about the history of
that Turkey or.

Speaker 2 (48:06):
All right, learn something that's cool.

Speaker 5 (48:08):
Yeah, it's just I mean sometimes we're singing songs we
don't know what we're talking about, and I'm from Montana
to we Got Power like two years ago.

Speaker 1 (48:17):
Thank you, I have internet.

Speaker 3 (48:19):
That's a new release for you. You just heard it.

Speaker 5 (48:22):
That's right, Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
Actually right here, right here, come on, come on, come on,
oh look at that spiral it back. Here's the interesting
behind the scenes. Oftentimes I will well let me go
back even further. Garrett told me that a lot of

(48:48):
big time Instagram or YouTubers will will think about the
thumbnail of the YouTube video, maybe even before they make
the make the video. I that song is what made
me want to do as I just it was such
powerful imagery. I did know it was a person I
knew as a seminole leader. That's about all I would

(49:09):
have known. And I was just like, man if John
Anderson said the ghost of Ostiola was crying, there's a
story back.

Speaker 5 (49:18):
There, and and Rich just thought that John Anderson was
really in touch with how Turkey's felt.

Speaker 2 (49:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:24):
Sure, And so that was the spark point. And I
kind of envisioned like using that song because I'm really
interested in where some of this, whether it's hunting or
or in this case, just kind of unique history touches
mainstream like pop culture. That's interesting to me. And so

(49:47):
you know that we're still talking about Ostiola. But the
Decompass series I would not have known much about to come,
anything about Tucumps nothing. And I was reading a book
and it it's set and it talked about this this
Shawnee leader and that his name meant panther crossing the sky.

(50:08):
And when I when I when I heard what his
name meant. And on the night to comes was born,
a comet flashed across the sky. That's that's the lore
of to Compson's birth. And they called him Panther crossing
the sky. Well his yeah, his brother, but his brother
was also a major political well he was a more

(50:31):
of a religious leg yeah, squad. But when I heard
about Panther crossing the sky, I was like, I'm gonna
learn about that guy. And then he ends up, you know,
I mean, it's just such a fascinating story of who
comes to was what did y'all think about, Uh, the
all the other Bear Grease characters coming into play, Crockett
and then to comes to and then then Boone, what

(50:54):
did y'all think? Well, triggered, he was triggered.

Speaker 2 (51:00):
Triggered, you go triggered, it was triggered.

Speaker 1 (51:03):
Uh do you think Boone had a Shawnee wife? Do
you remember the series?

Speaker 2 (51:08):
Oh?

Speaker 1 (51:08):
Yeah, zero documentation this much.

Speaker 7 (51:13):
I mean, I think she brings a lot of really
good points that it just it wasn't a thing.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
She was confident that it was that it happened.

Speaker 6 (51:19):
Oh, I know when that when that's when that came up.
I remember this, and you can go back and listen
to that render. Man, you jumped all over me for saying, Man,
that's probably just the way it was back then.

Speaker 2 (51:29):
You're like, no, No, he was a he was a
religious man. He wouldn't he wouldn't do that. And I thought, then, man.

Speaker 6 (51:35):
You are a product of your Listen a minute, you
are a product of your environment. And it very well
could have been not absolutely not abnormal at all to
do that, And it could have been a position to
where he was it not being abnormal, and also it
could have been something that fit him into that community

(51:56):
to be it.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
Let me know what alexis think about your doctrine, because listen.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
That ain't gonna fly, that ain't going to wash well.

Speaker 1 (52:04):
But listen, listen, this is what I was thinking, and
and this is I can just tell you this is
true if I'm captured by some foreign army and the
only way for Clay Newcombe sitting today married to Misty
Newcomb with the value system that I have, the kids
that I have, the lifestyle that I have, the biblical

(52:24):
doctrine that I have. No, it's not it's the same.
And you say, you got to take this woman or die.
I'm gonna be like, dude, let's go. I'm out. Just
I'm out.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
That's today, and I'm the same way change. I understand.
Oh come on now, it absolutely didn't. It's the same
today yesterday. I mean, I'm just kidding.

Speaker 1 (52:49):
My point is A is A. I think the point
is strong is that like it if his he I'm
not saying he had the same belief system is me.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
You have to you have to put yourself. You got
to tell the story right, that's what you would do exactly.
You don't know what Daniel Boone did, but he's the
same as Daniel Boone.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
That's that's where I'm getting passionate about defense of Boone's character.
I think if you put Osceola in prison and you
you told him to defy his culture at a very
base level, he would have said, I ain't doing it.
I'm dying. That's what he said. That's what he did.
That's what it comes to. I mean, like people that
have a rock hard value sism that's connected to their

(53:32):
culture will die for it. Garrett, I think he absolutely
did it.

Speaker 5 (53:41):
Yeah, man, well, I think it's a it was a
different time. I know, you have like a very strong
value system and that's been shaped by the world that
you've lived in from the time you were born until now.
And I think trying to insert yourself, like if you
took that same narrative of what it was, five or

(54:02):
seven out of the first nine presidents owned slaves, right, Okay,
would you own a slave right now? But do you
think George Washington share like had a different value system
than you did foundationally?

Speaker 2 (54:16):
Right? And so I think it's like really hard to
say that product daytime.

Speaker 5 (54:19):
That Daniel Boone from the time he was born to
going and being inserted in that tribe would have made
him not assimilate or do something like that.

Speaker 2 (54:29):
I just don't think we could say that he would.

Speaker 1 (54:32):
That's a good that's a good point.

Speaker 2 (54:33):
Where was he from nine to thirteen?

Speaker 1 (54:35):
Good point?

Speaker 2 (54:36):
He was a pan That's what I got from this
whole podcast.

Speaker 1 (54:42):
No, I hear what you're saying. I hear what you saying.
I think it's just a fun like mental.

Speaker 2 (54:47):
Health and you've seen it with people. I mean, people
do fall, right, so we are people.

Speaker 3 (54:51):
Yeah, you can't put it not to trigger you any further, Clay,
but I've seen some and I've seen it personally. Just
people strong in their faith make bad decisions. So who knows.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
Yeah, and we don't really know a lot about about
Boon's Boon's faith. But just just the assumption if you
were well, just the assumption that because it was the
the trend of the time, that you would do it,
I think is unfair. Yeah, that's all.

Speaker 2 (55:19):
That's all.

Speaker 1 (55:20):
That's all. Okay, Now, how much time or where we at?
I have no concept of time. I mean, how long
we've been going.

Speaker 5 (55:29):
We're blown over by two hours technically, but you.

Speaker 1 (55:33):
Know, oh we always go over an hour. We're good,
We're good.

Speaker 2 (55:39):
I'm not worried about it.

Speaker 1 (55:40):
No, No, I just wanted to make sure we had
been going, like an hour and a half.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Okay, push cord yet again? Do it again? Hey, can
we do this whole conversation but condensed?

Speaker 1 (55:54):
Yeah, just as natural? But oh wow, yep, oh it was.
It was interesting to me too. So we we did
a big series on Crockett and uh Crockett, who was?
Who was? You know, it's so not politically correct to

(56:15):
like say this, but he was known as an Indian hunter,
you know, which is a wild thing to say and think.
But like at that time, that's what people became known for.
Political figures like would get known in these wars against
Native Americans and would gain clout and status and whatnot.
He was known as a kind of known as an

(56:36):
Indian hunter. But he actually wasn't like today. If you
I bet if you pulled a bunch of people here, now,
these people would know who Crockett is because we're in
we're in.

Speaker 7 (56:45):
The end zone.

Speaker 1 (56:46):
But Crockett, he did fight in the Red Stick War,
so he fought against the Creeks under and Uh under
Andrew Jackson. And but that incident of watching that really
impacted him for the rest of his life. He would
not eat potatoes. That's that was what was said. But

(57:08):
then you know, he recounted in his autobiography about how
like he wasn't cool with that. And then later in
his political career when it had been would have been
very advantageous for him to side with Andrew Jackson and everything,
he vehemently opposed the Indian Removal Act and then even
saying I'm doing this so that in the looking there

(57:28):
at that blue tick dog, that's not the real smoky.

Speaker 4 (57:32):
Is it.

Speaker 2 (57:34):
Pampered somewhere?

Speaker 1 (57:35):
I bet nice looking bluetick.

Speaker 2 (57:38):
You know.

Speaker 1 (57:38):
He said so in the in in Judgment day, I'm
found on the right side, which was a pretty progressive
position because I mean, obviously most of America was okay
with this and was behind it, you know, And it
probably was one of those social deals that if you
went and talked to an individual and so, hey, what

(58:00):
do you think about us moving all these people out
of their home and sending them they might have said, man,
it's kind of sad. But then it's like, but what
what's your stance on the political part of it? It
would have been like, well, I kind of want to
live in Alabama, you know.

Speaker 2 (58:17):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (58:17):
I mean it's it's one of those deals where they're.

Speaker 4 (58:20):
The human side of it, probably detached a little bit
from the political side of it.

Speaker 2 (58:24):
Yeah, a lot like today.

Speaker 1 (58:26):
And I think Crockett he saw those people, yeah, getting
killed and then and then he did he did have rapport.

Speaker 2 (58:33):
With what's perspective too, Like he was in it. He
saw the suffering.

Speaker 4 (58:36):
When you're detached from it and you don't see that,
you don't see that stuff every day. You're like a
that doesn't happen, It's not.

Speaker 2 (58:42):
Everything changes once it becomes personal once it's real.

Speaker 1 (58:45):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's.

Speaker 7 (58:47):
A lot different written on you know in the newspaper.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
Oh yeah, you're like, oh, there's no human aspect of it.
You know, you just read over it.

Speaker 4 (58:53):
It's just a headline or it's just a something you
see and you're like, oh, yeah, yeah, that's that's ridiculous.
And then when you see it in person, you see
the you're like, oh, dang, yeah, there's a human side
to it.

Speaker 2 (59:03):
Well.

Speaker 1 (59:05):
I felt like that was a redemptive moment in Crockett's life,
and it's it's actually what spurred him to go to
Texas because he didn't get re elected because of that,
partly because of that position in his stance against Andrew Jackson,
and he was kind of ticked off and was like,
you know what, I'm going to Texas. And he goes

(59:25):
down to Texas and dies. We were three months in
the Alamo. But I also thought about I almost didn't
put that story in the podcast, and I'll tell you why.
I knew that a lot of my Seminole Native American
friends were going to listen to this, and I thought about, like,
what if we told a story about your family, they

(59:48):
got something like very gruesome and dark. You know. We
it's so easy for us to because here I am
almost saying, like telling this story and at the end
there was something positive, which I saying. This ended up
being a place where Crockett kind of redeemed himself in
my mind his stance on removal, and like, I bet

(01:00:10):
if they were talking about my family, I would be like,
that's a pretty nice spin. Yeah you see what I'm saying. Yeah,
for sure, so I'm conscious of that kind of stuff.

Speaker 7 (01:00:22):
But it But anyway, so will we hear any of
those same guests in part two all.

Speaker 1 (01:00:30):
And there'll be a new guest at some point. It
was going to be a new guy.

Speaker 4 (01:00:34):
The level of editing was impressive, like that you had
to go to all these different places and then intertact
that that was that was way above my pay grade.
But my podcast, I'm like, nah, dude, hits starting when
it's about an hour and a half, we're done, you know, I.

Speaker 2 (01:00:46):
Mean, that was that was impressive.

Speaker 5 (01:00:47):
But the audience probably doesn't realize with Clay is when
like some people will just have a mission of getting
a podcast and they start on one day and end
on the next day and then that's the podcast play
will go months getting feedback and and sound bites about
multiple podcasts he has in his mind from different people

(01:01:10):
and different guests, and then it all comes together like this,
and it's it is intensive. I've never seen and I'm
just gonna toot your horn for a little bit. I
have never seen a podcast host.

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
Sorry, I know, I don't.

Speaker 5 (01:01:22):
I've never seen a podcast host. They'll take more personal
ownership in the edit and splicing together of a podcast
than Clay Like it is.

Speaker 2 (01:01:31):
It's really cool to watch.

Speaker 1 (01:01:33):
Yeah, I appreciate it man now. And and that's where
I'm grateful to. Uh, just having the opportunity to dedicate
this much time. I mean, like, imagine if you were
working nine to five stock and groceries.

Speaker 4 (01:01:49):
And then and then had to train, did that early on,
not stocking groceries, but yeah, it was hard.

Speaker 1 (01:01:54):
You wake up everything you think about training.

Speaker 2 (01:01:57):
I think about it.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
I get to wake up every day and think about
content for the most part, you know, and uh, it
shows like it's yeah, well, and and telling these stories
has been I love it. I really do love it.

Speaker 7 (01:02:13):
Did she go on? You know, she talked about that
figurine that her friend found in Belgium that was made
in Italy. She going any more like off camera about
like his world renowned popularity other than just.

Speaker 1 (01:02:30):
Not really not really. I mean there you start looking
around and you see a lot of stuff, not just
from Osceola, but just like Native American kind of totems
and different parts and just all over. It's all over, yeah, everywhere.
But we are going to talk about the Florida State Seminoles,

(01:02:53):
you know, being a college football.

Speaker 2 (01:02:56):
Act as a mascot.

Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:02:58):
Yeah, they're pretty passionate about it too.

Speaker 1 (01:02:59):
Yeah. Yeah, there's there's a pretty interesting story there. But uh,
well man again, we're in uh, we're in Knoxville. Game
is gonna start here in a little bit.

Speaker 5 (01:03:11):
I got something for you, okay, James, Peter, Nancy, Paulie
William we didn't do trivia.

Speaker 1 (01:03:20):
Oh my god.

Speaker 2 (01:03:21):
Now now you just have to ask what is that.

Speaker 1 (01:03:26):
I can't believe speed trivia a right. The first person
to spout it off wins. I can't believe I always
do this. I gotta have somebody keeping me on track. Trivia, Okay,
whoever gets the most points and just whoever I says
gets the point get the point? No, no, hassling.

Speaker 7 (01:03:45):
Okay.

Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
Number one.

Speaker 7 (01:03:47):
What Spanish word cimarron?

Speaker 1 (01:03:51):
One point? You keep you keep your own score. The
question was what Spanish words is the name seminole taken
from cimarron means wild ones. It's pretty cool. Number two Okay,
Josh Bilmaker made these questions that I think he made
him for, like his like young kids. They're pretty They're
pretty basic. I was looking for, Josh, I was looking

(01:04:14):
for something a little more from Okay, where was the
Ostiola statue gifted to doctor Patricia Wickman purchased and made
from where Italy? Okay was happy Belgium. Somebody put those
two together. Okay, point Josh.

Speaker 2 (01:04:34):
Well he was asking about it. I feel like these
are unfair. He already knows them all.

Speaker 1 (01:04:38):
Well, okay, you get that point, you get the point
one to one. Coach number three, Okay, now this one.
Just raise your hand and I'll call on you. Okay,
who can give a decent explanation of the genealogy of
Ostiola leading to his English name? Which was so the answer?

(01:05:00):
Hold his English name and the genealogy, Garrett, do you
have an answer?

Speaker 2 (01:05:06):
Billy Powell?

Speaker 5 (01:05:07):
Okay, this is the English name and he was one
eighth native of Scottish origin.

Speaker 1 (01:05:14):
Okay, well that's not I'm asking for a decent Well.

Speaker 2 (01:05:19):
You want you want just what I just said? Yeah,
what he just said.

Speaker 5 (01:05:23):
Uh, James was his great great grandpa. You actually got
it wrong on your podcast. It was his great great
grandpa in seventeen sixteen to James, and Peter was his son.

Speaker 4 (01:05:39):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (01:05:40):
Then Nancy it is Peter's daughter. Then Paulie was Nancy's
daughter that hooked up William yep, which was Billy's dad.

Speaker 1 (01:05:48):
That was impressive. That was impressive.

Speaker 2 (01:05:50):
That's why I get your hands somewhere. All right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:55):
Yeah, we're giving you two points.

Speaker 2 (01:06:00):
It's a tag game.

Speaker 1 (01:06:00):
This is y'all can get your own podcast if you
want to make the rules.

Speaker 2 (01:06:03):
This is my rules. Okay, that's like those sandwiches.

Speaker 1 (01:06:07):
Okay, this is this one. This is a low hanging fruit.
Y'all be ready, hands on the buzzers. What does Austin
oldest name mean? Oh?

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
The black Drink. Oh yeah, the name of the podcast,
the Black Drinking.

Speaker 1 (01:06:25):
Who said it singer? The correct answer is black Drink singer,
Black drink singer. Did you say, Okay, what's the score?

Speaker 2 (01:06:33):
Then three three one two. I got six got nothing. Okay,
I feel like that one is a little shady. I
just know I have one more point than Tennessee.

Speaker 1 (01:06:44):
I mean, okay, this one is like way too hard, Josh,
like turned the throttle like all the way to the top.
I didn't even know who this was. Okay, who is
the artist famous for painting the portrait of Osceola stabbing pains?
Treaty with the Night.

Speaker 2 (01:07:00):
That's a winner. Takes all of the.

Speaker 7 (01:07:03):
Sterling, har Joe, I remember that they disagreed that it happen.

Speaker 2 (01:07:07):
Yeah, famously.

Speaker 1 (01:07:11):
It's it's like a modern guy that was the chief
of the in the Seminole tribe. The sterling stated his name.
I don't think anybody's gonna get it. I wouldn't remembered.
His name is Enoch Kelly Haney.

Speaker 5 (01:07:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
It doesn't even ring a bell.

Speaker 1 (01:07:26):
Actually yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, thanks Josh. Okay, Josh, let's
see last question. But there's actually two more questions, but
we've already answered this one. So hands on the buzzers.
What percentage Muskogee Creek? Do historians agree that was? Okay,

(01:07:46):
I gotta I gotta say one quick thing. Some of
the Seminoles dispute some of the genealogy of of Osiola.

Speaker 2 (01:07:55):
The Floridians are the ones in Oklahoma.

Speaker 7 (01:07:58):
The Floridians dispute. Well, oh, no, I guess you could
be either way.

Speaker 1 (01:08:01):
I can't.

Speaker 2 (01:08:02):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:08:02):
I'm not even going to go into that much detail,
but there is dispute. Some people are like, no, he
wouldn't seven eighths Scottish.

Speaker 4 (01:08:11):
So that was interesting too that the him being part
of the community had more weight than the actual blood,
you know, because we we attached so much blood.

Speaker 7 (01:08:21):
Which is interesting when you look at the portrait, I mean,
you don't see one eighth in seven eighth?

Speaker 2 (01:08:26):
Yeah, for sure? Did you?

Speaker 1 (01:08:27):
Did you like it when doctor Wickman said, you're you're
looking at this all wrong. Yeah, you're focusing on what
non Indians focused on. That was another time she got
put me in my place and slap it. She was like,
quit talking, let me this is my podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:08:42):
Boy.

Speaker 1 (01:08:43):
Yep, all right, last question, last question, and right now
the current score is three to one to two. I
got what was the name of the village where Osceola
was born? Oh? Said multiple must gogi. No, I would

(01:09:04):
have had a hard time with it. The correct answer
is to Lashie and it's it's in Alabama, in Alabama,
and they know right where the town was. I'm not
certain exactly what modern town is there, but like that's
where he was born. So congratulations, bring me down?

Speaker 2 (01:09:27):
Was it really?

Speaker 1 (01:09:28):
What's a good tie breaker we could do? We can't
have the tie.

Speaker 2 (01:09:31):
What was the year he moved fourteen? There?

Speaker 4 (01:09:34):
It was?

Speaker 1 (01:09:35):
Whoa do you know that was happening? I almost want
to count that question.

Speaker 2 (01:09:41):
The year he moved to.

Speaker 1 (01:09:43):
Would you have known that as quick as him?

Speaker 7 (01:09:45):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (01:09:46):
Okay, great he would you would have you have known
it quicker than him?

Speaker 7 (01:09:49):
No, I'm not saying quicker.

Speaker 2 (01:09:51):
Come on, dude, Yes, get another question, another question.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
If he would have said yeah, I would have got
it quicker. I would have You know, this is a
rare moment in the man life when he's able to
just like public. Harasso helped me with another question.

Speaker 7 (01:10:08):
Oh, what was Andrew Jackson's nickname? Old hickto?

Speaker 1 (01:10:19):
Congratulations? Congratulations, great win.

Speaker 2 (01:10:24):
Was our winner? Jackson? Sorry, it's just hard losing first.

Speaker 1 (01:10:31):
Thanks guys, It's been like fun, a lot of fun.

Speaker 2 (01:10:37):
Thanks.

Speaker 1 (01:10:37):
Appreciate you absolutely great, Garrett Hunter, awesome, thanks guys, appreciate it.