Ep. 272: Render - Shoes vs. Boots, Moose Paddle, and Bear's Deer Camp

On this Bear Grease Render, Newcombs have the majority -- Clay, Misty, Gary, and Bear, as Josh "Landbridge" Spielmaker and special guest and friend Ben Lagrone round out the panel. Render Trivia turns into an in-depth conversation about the captivity and death of Osceola. Bear talks about his friends and family annual deer camp and the subsequent retrieval of the bear that was harvested, Misty points out Bear's new shiny shoes, and Clay shares about his special gift from Steve Rinella.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:14):
My name is Clay Nukeleman. This is a production of
the Bear Grease podcast called The Bear Grease Render, where
we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes
of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by f h
F Gear, American made purpose built hunting and fishing gear

(00:35):
that's designed to be as rugged as the place as
we explore. I want to pull the group here about something.
Should I tell the world that I'm writing a book
if it's a year to a year and a half

(00:57):
out from being published.

Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yes, Gosh, I can't think of a good reason why
you wouldn't been.

Speaker 3 (01:04):
Whatever your publishers say.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
Okay, publisher Bear, what do you think I would say,
go for it? Might as well kind.

Speaker 4 (01:09):
Of gary, yeah, tell them, Yeah, I don't think.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
Guess why your very own Clay Knook is deep in
the heart of a process for writing a book. What
made me think of it was on the screen right there,
was like, you know, writing, And I was actually with
Giannis Putellis the other day and he he was just like, Clay,
you got to tell the world because I've kind of

(01:35):
not told the world even though it is public knowledge.
Because when you get a book contract with a publisher.
What the publisher does is they send out a memo
to the writing world, like the underworld that like normal people.

Speaker 5 (01:49):
The CD underbelly of authors, Yeah, exactly, for real, Like
so it wouldn't be something that just like I would
be attuned to, but it's something that writers and publishers
would see.

Speaker 1 (02:03):
And you do it to state claim on some topic. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (02:08):
So the book, like, hey, I'm writing a cookbook.

Speaker 1 (02:12):
The book, you know at this time is titled American Bear,
and that's known that was known a year ago, and
but I haven't talked about it because in my mind
it's like, am I going to start telling about the
research and what I'm doing? And you, honest we tell
us was like Clay, if every single podcast you talked

(02:33):
about really what you were learning for the next year,
you would not even touch the surface of what's in
the book, and you would build people's excitement towards it.
And so so here we go. I'm writing a book
and I'm I'm very excited about it. And really the
book is about the American Black Bear, and it's in

(02:56):
it's trajectory in American history, which is an incredible that
I've never really I don't think anybody's ever like put
all the pieces together, and it's going back all the
way to deep indigenous worldviews on bear in the in
the first contact with with bears that we have documented,

(03:19):
all the way into the market hunting of black bears,
which is incredible with guys like Boone and Crockett and
Gershtocker and Native Americans who were massively involved in the
market hunting of black bears, coming all the way up
to the modern times of the black bear thriving. Whatever

(03:39):
is happening ecologically on planet Earth today has been beneficial
to the American black bear. There are eight species of
bears on planet Earth, and every one of them has
some level of imperiled status in the black bear. There
are more American black bears versus Americana. There are twice

(04:01):
as many as all the bear species of planets Earth combined.
So if there are you know, twenty five thousand polar
bears and two hundred thousand brown bears, and and you
know all the other there are eight species, one in
South America, multiple in Europe. If if you combine all
of them, they're twice as many black bears, and so

(04:24):
in a time, and this is why you're going to
buy the book Dad is in a time you're gonna
buy You're gonna buy Christmas for Bear, Ben and Josh
When in a time when all the media about planet
Earth is is ecological doom, which I mean is kind

(04:46):
of true. I mean, with the expansion of civilization and
they're being you know, approaching eight billion people on planet
Earth and the needs of all these people, there's there's
all this like ecological doom. But something crazy has happened
with the America black bear and they're springing up in
places they hadn't been in one hundred and fifty years,
and every researched population of bears is increasing or stable.

(05:09):
And it's a fascinating story about America's bear, which is
endemic to North America.

Speaker 2 (05:15):
Well, I just thought it was amazing when you said
there's eight species of bears, Like of all the big
game animals, of all the cats and everything, I don't
know that there's any that have just that limited number
of species in that category.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Okay, again, I hope your honest is right about me
talking about this because I could talk about it for forever.
We'll quickly get to Ostiola. This episode is about Ostiola,
but in the fossil record, there have been hundreds hundreds
of bears that have come and gone that were gone
that we would have never even encountered. I mean, like

(05:50):
the fossil record is full of bears. And if you
were looking at time in like a like like geologic
time as opposed to time that really humans can comprehend
and understand. Bears are like on the decline. Just just
there used to be a hundred species. Now there's eight

(06:11):
and it and and that that's not fodder for like
not managing them and hunting them. It's actually more fodder
for like we need, we need, we need to help
them as much as we can, and for a black
bear that means you know, regulated hunting in places. But anyway,
it's just fascinating. So mark your calendars.

Speaker 2 (06:32):
For one and a half years from today.

Speaker 1 (06:33):
I mean, and I'm a year into this, I'm a
year into it. But but we're really turning up the dial.

Speaker 6 (06:40):
So yeah, save your pennies and nickels so you can buy.

Speaker 1 (06:46):
Save your pennies and nickels. It's gonna be it's it's
gonna be great. I'm gonna I'm gonna read the audiobook. Yeah, yeah,
it's gonna be good. Dad. Great to have you been
a while since you've been up here.

Speaker 2 (07:02):
Yeah, yeah, it's good to be here. I mean I was.
I felt like I had been fired.

Speaker 4 (07:08):
It felt so good. Really, I mean, you know, I'm retired,
I'm free. You can't really let glove on me.

Speaker 1 (07:16):
A good thing about it, A good thing about the
renders if you get fired, you never know. Yeah, it's
kind of like, don't show back up. No, man, we
just we just invite hey, just.

Speaker 2 (07:27):
Don't worry about me. Just use me. Just call me
when you need me.

Speaker 1 (07:32):
We need you, We need you for Osceola. This this
is to me one of the most like when I
rank in my mind the work done for a Beargrease
documentary style podcasts, it's not so much about like which
one is my favorite or which one, but but I
really kind of have a mechanism for just ranking the

(07:54):
quality of them. And it has to do with the guests,
It has to do with the story, It has to
do with inten things that happen inside the interviews. It
has to do with a lot of times just the
cultural touch points that the story touches that we kind
of go into and and then it then it goes
back to really how well, Like if someone listened to

(08:17):
these three episodes and knew nothing of Ostiola, Like what
would they learn? Would they really learn? Because there's sometimes
with historic characters that I feel like we kind of
just did like an okay job. Maybe it was entertaining
and fun, but man, I felt like this one was
like top shelf. And it was because of doctor Patricia Wickman.

Speaker 6 (08:36):
For sure.

Speaker 2 (08:36):
She was good, really good.

Speaker 1 (08:39):
Oh. I talked to her for four hours, you know,
and we're going to end up here in probably two
total hours of what she said, and I mean just
a unbelievable I said it over and over, but it
was she she has an unbelievable passion, ability to retain
knowledge and just a lie a career, like a forty

(09:01):
year span. She wrote this book right here when she
was in college in the nineteen seventies. Her thesis, her thesis. Yeah,
it's like there was so much. Yeah, her dissertation was
on ostiola, and so she wrote this book and it
was it's like just stacked. I mean it's like reading
a you know, a medical manuscript, you know, just just

(09:24):
stacked with information. And uh. And then as if that
wasn't good enough. She came back and wrote the revised edition,
which she was adamant.

Speaker 2 (09:34):
Quite a bit thicker. Oh, it's like she's added quite
a bit.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
It's like a lot thicker. And when I went to
see her dad, she was adamant that I read this
one and not this one, really because I had read
this one. And she was like, oh no, no, no, no,
don't you come to Florida without reading.

Speaker 2 (09:55):
Honey.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
Honey almost here saying that, oh yeah, she did, and
uh and and it was like two days before I
was supposed to go to Florida, So I I don't
tell her I read most of it. Well, you did
read I.

Speaker 6 (10:12):
Thought it was in the interview. In the interview, you.

Speaker 7 (10:14):
Said I read this today, and I thought, oh man,
you almost got yourself in trouble there.

Speaker 1 (10:19):
I was cramming. I was cramming because she she was
so sweet, though I appreciated her directness at times, it's
going like, no, you don't understand.

Speaker 4 (10:28):
You know what what made her to me so effective?
And it's sort of a lesson in life. And you
can't you can't create it. I mean, it's got to
be natural. But her little giggle, her little I mean,
it just took a pH d full of knowledge and
put her kind of in the coffee shop, you know.

Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah, and uh, it was just beautiful really yeah.

Speaker 4 (10:50):
And with that, without the smiles and the giggles, you know,
it would have been good, but not great like it
ended up, I'd say for sure.

Speaker 7 (10:59):
And her reprimand I appreciated all the reprimands she gave,
her smiles, giggles, and she was like.

Speaker 1 (11:05):
Like put your put your coffee cup on the coaster. Yeah,
like you know, she was. She was very serious about.

Speaker 2 (11:11):
I liked when she when he mentioned about about the
slaves assimilating into she was like no, no, no, no
no no no no no no.

Speaker 1 (11:20):
No no no, honey, yeah, yeah, you know, I left
some of that stuff in very much on purpose. And
I hope it doesn't embarrass her because I was actually
doing it because it was so I thought it was
so cool and and it really showed who she was,
you know. And uh, and then just I didn't know

(11:43):
a lot about her, and the more I talked to her,
the more I saw just you know, I think I
used in the podcast the term she was a real gangster,
I mean, meaning she was just like legit, like she
lived with the Seminoles. She you know, when I when
I brought up that Osceola had been taken to a

(12:06):
broad like a play in Charleston while he was in prison.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
Don't divulge too much of that. We've got some good
trivia this week.

Speaker 1 (12:13):
Oh well, she was like, you know what he did?
And I went to the New York Museum and copied
the entire play, went back to Charleston, invited the Seminoles up,
and we did a reading in the theater yep for them.
The Flora sent carnations. I mean, it was just like
it's like, wow, this this woman's been there, you know,

(12:36):
and of I'm kind of just going on and on,
but I like it when a story. I think that's
what makes a good story too, is that the story.
This was about Ostiola, but it was kind of fun
to get a little window into doctor Wickman. So it
was exciting.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (12:53):
So that was the first introduction. Bear new comes here.
Good to see a bear. Nice shoes, thank you. I
mean I don't they don't. I don't really approve of them,
like uh well, I mean you follow, they look really
up in front, they look really good, really stylish. But

(13:14):
as you know, I think a grown man ought to
be wearing leather, leather boots of some kind of like
eighty percent of his life. I'm sorry, it's not it's
not right, but it's not wrong, and my dad would
have disagreed with me. Dad always thought I was kind
of a dressed like a hillbilly. Some of us are
trying to look nice.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
But putting in some effort.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
No, you look great, but I just don't want to,
you know, I don't want to make you feel too great.

Speaker 7 (13:41):
It does break the cardinal rule that we've had in
our family that no one is allowed to have white
things here.

Speaker 1 (13:46):
Yeah, yeah, good luck with that, buddy.

Speaker 6 (13:48):
Well on our dirt road. But they look good.

Speaker 3 (13:50):
You're becoming his own man is.

Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah, needs a haircut? Yeah, just no. I'm proud of you, bear,
Ben Lagron, Good to have you back. Ben's been on
here many times, former history teacher, doing all kind of stuff.
I'm interested to hear your take on Ostiola. Did you
know much about Ostiola?

Speaker 3 (14:12):
Well that it has to do with being a history teacher.
When you're a history teacher, you got to know a
little bit of a lot of things. And that's why
I enjoyed listening to her. Because you always get a
deeper appreciation that every story has so many layers of complexity.
And I enjoyed listen to her.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
Yeah cool. Also, so what what yeah you got?

Speaker 3 (14:32):
I just want to point out before we get to serious,
I am a sneakers man, beer skinny guy's gotta stick
together and be you know, Clay always says, you.

Speaker 2 (14:41):
Just got you just got moved all the category heavyweight people.

Speaker 3 (14:47):
I'll be honest. I can't wear big heavy boots all
day like I'm so.

Speaker 1 (14:51):
Small, You're not strong enough.

Speaker 3 (14:52):
I'm not strong enough. But here's what Here's what I
do have is that I can always run really fast
in these shoes. Well, and I am a.

Speaker 1 (15:02):
Fast until I take my boots off, and then I'm like,
who It's true because you know it's like where it
weighted ankle weights, you know, and then when you take
them off you can run like.

Speaker 2 (15:12):
That, right, that's right.

Speaker 3 (15:13):
The conditioning good point.

Speaker 1 (15:15):
Well, no, that's maybe. And grease color I've noticed that.
Just pick that too. Yeah, yeah, Josh, good to see you. Thanks,
doctor mister Nukem. Great to see you, very good to
see you. Today is Misty's anniversary. How many years? Twenty
four years twenty four years. Were married in the year

(15:36):
of two thousand. How would you say that in a
more uh, the year of our two thousand, like two
dominate twenty odd or something. You know, No, mistery and
I have been. We got married in the kind of the.

Speaker 2 (15:55):
The post prime of your life.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
The prime of our lives, but the latter end of
the white tail rut. I remember I told Jeff Cunningham,
who was my one of my best friend's dads at
the time. I told him that I was getting married
on November eighteenth, and he was like, you're going to
regret that. He's like, He's like, I'm going to have

(16:18):
to come in from deer camp to come to your wedding, Jeff,
and he did.

Speaker 7 (16:23):
And you have regretted. No, you've not regretted getting married,
but that the timing. We never celebrate our anniversary on
the day or anywhere near it. We actually up six
months earlier or six months later, depend on how.

Speaker 2 (16:38):
Well, Hey, you know what it goes without and redo
it like in Midsummer.

Speaker 1 (16:43):
Josh, you just that just as a slap in the
face to what I was just about to say. That
very serious, never mind, Gary Newcomb taught me from the
time was what two? I mean, like, before I could
say dad die, he said, don't ever say the word
divorce in this house, did you not?

Speaker 2 (16:59):
I sure did?

Speaker 1 (17:00):
I mean, Jesus, we don't use that word. We don't
even say it.

Speaker 2 (17:03):
Josh, Sorry, I said it. I take it all back.

Speaker 1 (17:08):
No, No, I was going to say, we I really do.
I mean, it's it's a big deal to be married
to somebody committed for decades. It's a big deal. So
something we on for sure. Absolutely, Yep, it's great.

Speaker 7 (17:26):
Speaking of did you all get the same ads that
I got in the Bear Grease in this in this
podcast where Clay said what he was thankful for?

Speaker 2 (17:36):
Yeah?

Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (17:37):
I actually didn't know where it was going because he
started off saying, this is basically an ad for better help,
and then he said I'm thankful for Misty.

Speaker 6 (17:46):
I was like, shot.

Speaker 3 (17:49):
Or she or she calls me to have therapy.

Speaker 6 (17:51):
I think that's where I was going.

Speaker 2 (17:55):
I'm thankful for a misty, But I have to talk
about it a lot. Can we talk?

Speaker 1 (17:59):
Can we talk about the c D underbelly of podcast ads? Yeah? Yeah,
they they send you these these ads that you read,
but then they say that they'll tell you things to
like talk about. Like they'll say, tell someone that, and
sometimes the connection is not always there. For me, it's
like a cold open like tell about someone in your life,

(18:22):
a relationship in your life that you're thankful for. And
so it's like, okay, so I talked about mysty and
then it's like, if you want someone in your life
to help you, you know, call betterhelp dot com.

Speaker 6 (18:33):
Yeah, then you said I'm thankful for myself.

Speaker 1 (18:36):
Oh yeah, they they that was that was part part
of their deal. Like this month was that this idea
that you know, like it's okay to.

Speaker 2 (18:48):
Like it's it's like the month of self gratitude, right,
gratitude and self care or something like that.

Speaker 1 (18:53):
Yeah, I'm not I'm not into that word self care.
It's a little a little little self aggrandizing, I don't know,
like a little selfie selfie. Yeah, it's it's just kind
of like trendy in the age to be like you
got to take care of yourself. I mean you do,
but we don't have to talk about it.

Speaker 2 (19:11):
But thanks Better Help for advertising.

Speaker 1 (19:14):
Actually, I think it's a great service. I mean I
really do.

Speaker 3 (19:19):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (19:19):
My brothers are both therapists or in the therapist adjacent world,
and uh, I think it's actually I think I think
it's actually a really good service that you could call
somebody and have a kind of an unbiased opinion. So
use clay at your cheery.

Speaker 7 (19:36):
Yeah they did not that that was unscripted.

Speaker 3 (19:41):
Yeah, yeah, there you go.

Speaker 1 (19:50):
I got a funny story. You see this moose antler
right here, there's a moose antler behind me. So I
hunted the last couple of years with Steve Vanella and
Alaska for moose at really the day that we're recording this,
so when it comes out, it'll be out. There's the
video on the med Eat YouTube channel of the rough
cuts called Steve Vanilla rough Cuts of us moose hunting
in Alaska two years ago and when the when the

(20:14):
plane flew over to come get us, or when he left,
the pilot saw a moose paddle and he would later
try to describe to us when he came back kind
of where it was. He was like, it's like out there,
but it was like a quarter mile from the camp,
and we went looking for it, couldn't find it. Long
story short, when Steve went back to Alaska this year

(20:34):
without me, they found the moose handler that was by
camp and he sent it to me, which I thought
was really cool. Yeah, he shipped it in like a
giant box and sent me that moose.

Speaker 2 (20:44):
Nice.

Speaker 1 (20:45):
Okay, they had killed a moose and Brody Henderson had
killed a moose, and so that antler had a big
splotch of blood on it, and they didn't clean it
when they sent it. They just put it in a
box and sent it. When it came to my house,
we took it out of the box and put it

(21:05):
on the fireplace. This is a complicated story, Okay, just
hang with me. He's worth it.

Speaker 6 (21:11):
I think it's easier than you think. I think we're
all trying.

Speaker 1 (21:13):
The moose is on our wood stove. Above the wood
stove is the moose that I killed the year before,
which is giant hanging on the wall as a euro mount.
Many times in our family we've talked about what if
that moose fell off the wall, And if you were
sitting underneath that moose and it fell like seven feet

(21:36):
and came down on you, it would likely kill you.
It could kill you, You could hurt you. My daughter River
Nukem walks into our house.

Speaker 6 (21:45):
That she walks out of her bedroom which is upstairs.

Speaker 1 (21:47):
She okay, she walks out of her bedroom and looks
down into our living.

Speaker 7 (21:51):
Room, and Clay and I are usually sitting in the
living room every morning when she wakes up to go
to work, we're having coffee. So that's what she was
expecting to see, was us sitting there.

Speaker 1 (22:00):
And she sees a moose antler laying underneath the big
moose with blood on it. She said that for like
a very few real seconds, she was certain that one
of those antlers had fallen off and killed someone in
their house. Perfect since there was this huge blood. I mean, like,

(22:23):
why would there be blood on this big moose antler.
We don't have two moose, you know. Anyway, so River
had a little traumatic moment and then she was like
looked at the moose on the wall and she's like, well,
it's still there, and there's that one. Anyway. It was funny.

Speaker 4 (22:39):
That is beautiful. That looks like a piece of canvas.
If you could ever yeah yeah, oh yeah, they'd finds.

Speaker 2 (22:44):
Something to put on it. Man, that would really be something.
It's something you could paint you something on there.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
Man. I think a moose andler is like one of
the most spectacular I mean it's one of the most
spectacular antlers. But they're just fascinated. Yeah, it's just so big,
you know.

Speaker 2 (23:00):
This little guy. I mean, he's beautiful. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (23:03):
Man, we got I just got so many stories to tell.
I got to tell one just real quick about River.
This is kind of a monologue today. I've been in
the deer stand a lot. Thank you, Thank you for
coming to many people. Thank you for coming. So Bear,
we don't have to go into all the details just yet.
But Bear had his annual deer camp, right okay, and

(23:26):
this this story's gonna quickly get back to River.

Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, they had like.

Speaker 1 (23:30):
Twenty people at Bear's deer camp. There were thirty total
that like came, Are you serious? Thirty? They were almost
always twenty at once. Like people would come and go
from all over the country, from all over other countries. Yeah,
we had like three countries represented there. Yeah. And and
most of these guys are new hunters. Some of them
were veteran hunters. Yep. Most shepherd showed up. Yep. I

(23:52):
was there for a short time. You'll cook some cook
some meat for y'all.

Speaker 7 (23:55):
The young guys come, a lot of the younger Yeah,
young men around here like eleven, twelve, thirteen years old
come with their parents.

Speaker 6 (24:04):
It's pretty cool.

Speaker 1 (24:05):
So you're going to be surprised at what part of
the story that I'm interested in. Okay, they deer hunt
and don't kill any deer, but they kill a bear.
Are from Levi Mashburn shoots a bear. It's really we've
killing machine this year. He's had a great season. We
should have had him on the podcast.

Speaker 6 (24:22):
Yeah, he's made a lot of work in I mean,
the last couple of years he has.

Speaker 1 (24:26):
He's hunted hard in the last two years. Yeah, and
has it had made any killed a bear and and
you might think that's what I would be interested in,
but it's it's actually not sorry what uh No, Levi knows.
I'm really proud of him, very proud of him. He
did a just a phenomenal job. River Nukeom went to

(24:47):
bring food. Her and her friends took dinner for all
the deer hunters. It actually went out in the mountains
and when they got there, Levi had killed a bear
and they were all gonna go way back and it
was a it was a long hike. It was a
tough pack up. I mean, it wasn't like a they're
in the big mountains man, And they went back there.

Speaker 6 (25:07):
And River wasn't planning to stay, plan to drop.

Speaker 1 (25:10):
Yeah. River just like had just normal clothes on and
had crocs. I think she had ugsu Yeah, ugs like
slip on ugs.

Speaker 2 (25:21):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:22):
And Dad, they're going on this like significant hike. It
was point six, six miles from the road, but steep,
like really steep six miles in point yeah, point zero
points the people out west. That doesn't sound impressive, no,
but it was a it was a forty five minute
hike in there probably, Yeah, just real steep. River takes

(25:44):
off her shoes and walks in their barefoot in the
wood like a sasquatch. And the worst part about it
was it wasn't only steep, but it was thick. I
mean there was just brush and thorn. River. Since River
didn't wear she's she didn't wear shoes until she was
like nine, when we made her.

Speaker 7 (26:04):
Well, when she would go to school, I would walk
in and I would just see River shoes in the
hallway at school and I would be like, why why
doesn't River have shoes on? And teachers would say, we've
been telling her to get them on. She just takes
them off in every.

Speaker 6 (26:16):
Class and she could never find her shoes at school.

Speaker 1 (26:19):
People people and indigenous people and people across the world
that don't wear shoes. Shoes tighten your feet up and
make your toes stick together like this like all normal
people's feet. But if you don't wear shoes, your toes
spread out like you could, you know, like poke the
ground in between your toes. River has toes, like really, they've.

Speaker 7 (26:38):
Come together in her older age, you know, when she
has jobs.

Speaker 1 (26:41):
And the other day, like in the last year, we
were joking about when she was a little girl, she
didn't wear shoes, and I said, could you still run
across the gravel? I mean if I go out on
the gravel? Yeah, and she was she was like oh yeah.
She was like, oh yeah, I could. I could do it.
And I was like, no, you couldn't show me. She
takes her shoes off and just sprints down the driveways,

(27:06):
a full sprint. So anyway, congratulations.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
She kind of looks like a Native American too. You
ever noticed that she's got that dark tire.

Speaker 7 (27:16):
Well, you know, everybody in Arkansas believes that they're part
Native American.

Speaker 6 (27:21):
I don't know if that's a thing everywhere.

Speaker 1 (27:23):
One day We're going to do a Barger's podcast on it,
because there's there's actually a legitimate cultural thing about and
I don't quite have my fingers on it, but everybody.
You can hardly talk to a person down here that
doesn't claim to have Native American heritage, and I think
most of the time it's not true. I mean there's

(27:46):
stories in our family of it. I mean, my whole
life grew up here in that juju that my well,
my grandmother NANAE Milsap grew up in Oklahoma, which is
you know, Indian Territory. Yeah, and that her grandmother was
full blood Turkey, do you I mean that's.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
What I grew up here and yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:08):
And but now they have like as I've gone back
to try to like, okay, let's is that really true,
It's like nobody can really prove it. I talked to
people NonStop that last week. I talked to a guy
and he was like, yep, my great great grandmother was
this or that, and it's like three in me. We

(28:30):
checked can tell me that that doesn't that doesn't work.

Speaker 6 (28:33):
Guess who's not putting their blood in that sample to
be compared to.

Speaker 8 (28:37):
Oh you see what I'm saying, and you need this,
you need the sample because I mean, just like we
see with Osiola and we learned from Sterling hard Joe,
it's not exactly like the the.

Speaker 1 (28:51):
The Native American people in this country have a lot
of reason to trust the system.

Speaker 2 (28:56):
Yeah, understandably, so I.

Speaker 1 (28:58):
Mean for real. Yeah, you know, No, that's a big topic.
I'm not ready to fully discuss it. But interesting. Interesting.
So sorry LEVI that your story was second only to
River going in Barefoot.

Speaker 3 (29:12):
I wish River was here in that whole tennis shoe
boot debate because she would have brought a whole another one.

Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yeah, no doubt, no doubt. I think we should probably
start with trivia.

Speaker 2 (29:26):
Yeah, I agree.

Speaker 1 (29:27):
I agree we're going to have trivia. I didn't.

Speaker 2 (29:31):
Oh man, I wish I would have studied the teachers
about to get schooled. Look what we got here.

Speaker 6 (29:40):
Oh, we've got.

Speaker 1 (29:42):
I will play, but I won't count. Sound like I
think we'll see if you can stump me.

Speaker 2 (29:49):
Okay, there we go. Dad.

Speaker 1 (29:52):
Do you feel like you academically listened to this podcast?

Speaker 2 (29:56):
I mean, I know just about everything.

Speaker 1 (30:00):
You know. I do appreciate that about you. When you listen,
I can really tell you listen.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
Oh, I'm not too sure how much I retained.

Speaker 1 (30:07):
Okay, what about you? How do you feel like you're
going to do? I would say decent because I listened
to this in the ox cord of my truck just disappeared,
so I had to listen to it, you know, on
my phone while driving. So probably all right, gosh, take
us up, take us away?

Speaker 2 (30:27):
Ready for this?

Speaker 1 (30:27):
How many questions do we have?

Speaker 2 (30:29):
We have eight in a bone or nine on a bonus?
I think? Okay, okay, and keep your score on the
bottom of ere of your board.

Speaker 1 (30:38):
So how it give us the rule? How we doing it?

Speaker 2 (30:40):
So everybody, I'm going to give you a question. Oh,
we just write it down and you write down the answer,
just like meat eater trivia, right if you get If
you get a point, mark it down at the bottom
of your board. Okay, okay, my old man glasses here
so I can see what I'm doing. Okay. Question number one,
what is the name of the stockade or osceola? Was

(31:01):
originally held? Wow? I thought we'd have a B C
or no multiple choice? Scary? Mmm, this is not the act, anybody. Remember,
it's not fun.

Speaker 6 (31:16):
It's the question so hard. No one can.

Speaker 2 (31:20):
It was said at.

Speaker 1 (31:20):
Least three times. Yeah, I know you're right, because they
they took him. This is not giving anybody hint because
I actually I don't remember, but they when they captured
him under a flag of truce, they took him to
a town near Saint.

Speaker 2 (31:35):
I will tell you it starts with Fort Yeah.

Speaker 1 (31:38):
Yeah, and he was there for a while, and that's
where the Indians escaped yep, potentially by gotcha kill it?

Speaker 2 (31:49):
Okay, Okay, all right, does anybody have an answer?

Speaker 6 (31:52):
I have an answer?

Speaker 2 (31:54):
Okay, all right, let's see your answers. Clay, what do
you got Fort Payne? Fort Payne? He has Fort Charles Theater,
Charleston Theater Group, Ben Blank Bear, Fort Myers. That's a
good guest, Bear, Gary, you got a guess? Clay is
the closest. It's actually Fort Peyton, Fort Peyton Books. Okay,

(32:17):
So no right answers on that one. Okay. Question number
two and and this one was mentioned several times too,
and I think everybody should should pick up on this one.
What was the name of the post surgeon and local
doctor that befriended Osciola and later took his head post mortem?
That will be going to take someone's head. It's always

(32:40):
going to be post mortem, right.

Speaker 3 (32:42):
I've literally been thinking about the story all morning that
I can't recall his name. Oh wait, a Shamus at
the beginning, Josh, you're all going to get this.

Speaker 1 (32:49):
Well.

Speaker 2 (32:50):
I didn't want us to have this big discussion and
answer all the questions in the discussion. Okay, everybody got
to answer, all right, Clay, doctor Frederick, Whedon, Misty, doctor Kiljoy,
what do you got nothing? Bear Weeley, that's Wheden. I

(33:10):
should have had Gary show up before I said it,
because did you remember that?

Speaker 1 (33:14):
Okay, I'm really I love you all. Everyone's here because
I love you. I'm really disappointed a former.

Speaker 2 (33:24):
Hold on, there's there's a bonus question to this one.
What was his wife's name? Oh, that's a bonus, just
a bonus question.

Speaker 1 (33:34):
Bonus.

Speaker 2 (33:36):
There's there's no, there's no. He won't be disappointed with
you if you know, if you.

Speaker 1 (33:40):
Don't want Yeah, that's a tough one.

Speaker 2 (33:43):
All right, let's see your answers. Misty, Joe, Lene, let
me just say Judith. Okay, Judith, question mark Edith not Patricia.

Speaker 3 (33:54):
Her name was Mary classic.

Speaker 1 (34:00):
So there was some there was so much that you
just couldn't tell the story. But Mary Whedon was ken
to the guy that Osceola assassinated. Oh really, the Wiley
Wiley Thompson. Mary Whedon was ken to Wiley Thompson. And

(34:23):
there was a conspiracy theory that the reason Whedon cut
his head off was retribution to Mary's family. I think
it's totally unfounded. Me and doctor Wickman disgusted.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
Okay, next question. According to the story told by the Seminoles,
the imprisoned Indians made medicine that turned them into what
so they could escape through the prison of walls.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
All right, I'm refusing to answer this question, but.

Speaker 2 (34:57):
It got an answer. Misty answer one.

Speaker 3 (35:03):
Doing a lot of yard work, a lot of hard yards.

Speaker 2 (35:06):
Okay, the correct answer is The.

Speaker 1 (35:09):
Correct answer is not ants? What what they didn't turn into? Answer?

Speaker 6 (35:14):
It was water that came up, You didn't they saw?

Speaker 4 (35:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (35:19):
Yeah, that's the reason that I refuse to answer, because
they didn't turn into anything. They didn't turn into they became.

Speaker 6 (35:27):
Described it though. I actually had to listen to it twice.

Speaker 2 (35:30):
Okay, I listened to the podcast twice and I didn't
catch it.

Speaker 1 (35:33):
Well, yeah, if you, if you really listen, they didn't
turn into ants. They became as small as ants. Oh
that's that makes sense, like honey, the kids, Yeah, okay,
got it.

Speaker 6 (35:46):
I wonder if there's some copyright infringement there.

Speaker 2 (35:48):
Maybe Okay, well that one doesn't count apparently, all right.

Speaker 1 (35:53):
Can we can? Can we use this as a springboard
to talk about a few things that I don't think
will be a question. I actually really I said it.
I think I hope it came across that, like I
really like these stories of like supernatural activity. What did
you think about my commentary about supernatural stuff? You remember,

(36:17):
I said basically that a lot of times you hear
these stories and you're just like, ah, that's like just
completely discounted folklore. And the reason I brought up the
biblical prison break is because sometimes I think, I mean,
like in the cultural lexicon of a lot of people
who would consider themselves Christians, like if you hear this

(36:39):
story about someone turning into the size of an ant,
you're kind of just like chuckle. But I mean, like
in the in our stories, we got some wild stories too, yeah,
you know, And so anyway, I'm not saying that I
believe that that happened, but basically supernatural being things that

(37:00):
would break the laws of physics that we know to
be true. And but the way that it is, the
way that you know it's it's it's seen as the
spirit world would work, is that you're you're belief in
it would be the catalyst to like seeing it, you know.
And and and basically the idea that the way that

(37:24):
you think right now, bear bear shoes those no. No,
the way that we think is not the way that
most people that ever lived on planet Earth thought. I mean,
like we are a product of a long time, like
the Enlightenment and all this science and all this stuff,
which is true. Like I'm not saying that science isn't true,

(37:47):
but I wish I could have kept it on there.
But Patricia Wickman was actually at one point she was
talking about she was talking about Indian medicine like, which
was just like they're essentially their access to the spirit realm,
which again I'm not saying I might, I'm not saying

(38:07):
anything about that, but she said, as smart as she is,
she said, for me to think that I understand all
the mechanisms of how this universe operates, right is absurd.
And that's kind of what I said, Buck.

Speaker 3 (38:21):
Yeah, I think I think there's a lot of wisdom
in that statement you just said, and I find it
interesting right now, like you could go watch a million
documentaries on paranormal activity, UFOs and all this stuff that
it's you, your skeptical brain, your Western educated skeptic brain,

(38:42):
wants to just like poke holes in the whole thing.
But when you think about just like the accumulating mass
of eyewitness accounts or some of these documentaries prove you
at least walk away, You're like, you know what, I
don't really know what happened, So it would be very
arrogant of me to say, oh, they're all just crazy
and it's all of this massive conspiracy. And so that's

(39:03):
that's my feedback on your statement there in the podcast
of like, like you pointed out, who are we to
say over here this is false? And I know that
for sure in this over here that validates my beliefs.
It's true. What is easy to me to assess me
look at the big picture of human history is that
there's obviously some way more complex things going on than

(39:25):
we can that we can assess by our own personal experience.
Because that's where humans get so messed up as they think, well,
I've never seen that. Yeah, it's not true. It's like, Wow,
you've been on this planet for this much and you
can make an assessment on all of the entire universe.
That's pretty bold.

Speaker 2 (39:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (39:44):
I liked what you said about how like a lot
of times the super like if we would have had
like you know, people would have had no understanding of
like science in the laws of physics, Like whenever they'd
like pray for a rainstorm and a rainstorm would come,
like there was still science behind that. Like there it
was like I forgot exactly how you word it, but

(40:04):
like a lot of times like the natural functions of
the Earth can be you know, like are the supernatural
can play out even in the midst of.

Speaker 6 (40:13):
In the context of the natural laws of physical.

Speaker 1 (40:16):
Yeah yeah, yeah, because and kind of the point of that,
well finish your thought there, well yeah, And I mean
it's like even like a lot of the like stories
in the Bible, like sometimes they'll like uncover things like
the one example I could think of was like in
Sodom and Gomora, you know, like they uncovered like that
city that had like the high sulfur content they think

(40:37):
like meteorites, yeah or something, and it was like, if
you'd have had no understanding of what a meteorite was,
you would have said, yeah, balls of fire are flying
from the sky destroying the city. But it's like there
was actually like a natural thing behind it. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
That's good.

Speaker 6 (40:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (40:54):
I think that I think it's a real discount to
humanity to not believe in the supernatural. And I think
that that's probably why some of the imbalances that we're
seeing on on planet Earth exist, because we actually are
we are supernatural beings, and we should have sight for
those things, and and we're kind of denying this thing
that makes us fundamentally different.

Speaker 1 (41:16):
And I think you can say that and also be
like a massive believer and proponent of science. Oh yeah,
both of those things can fit into the same the
same vat. And what I was saying about that belief
in and when I say supernatural, I'm not even talking
about like turning yourself into the size of an ant
something that dramatic like that's but but you live a

(41:42):
self fulfilling prophecy. And so the question is what is reality?
So if I walk around and believe that the that
there is a spirit realm, that's as real as the
natural realm, and through my faith in God, I have
access to that at some level, like at some level
for my life, which you know, I could give examples
of things that have happened to me that that that

(42:07):
bias that I have to believe that because for whatever
reason makes it actually real to me. And if you don't, like,
if if you're cut off to that, then then you
have full right to be like, No, supernatural is not real.
I mean because it's not to you, right, I mean
it's like and you won't see it, and you won't
see it. Yeah, You're going to go through your whole

(42:29):
life and never see it. I mean that's the that's
the triggering power of faith that we see about. Yeah,
it is, I mean like the I and that's where
the the spirit realm is accessed differently than the natural realm.
And anyway, I think that's massively interesting and massively relevant.
I mean, it's just like in our our society today,

(42:51):
we're enamored with the things we can touch, touch, taste, see, smell,
rationally think and man, when I look back and of
all the research I've done in bear Grease and interviewing
all these people, I'm kind of looking back into history,
Like I realize what has been lost inside of modern
society with all the knowledge that we have that's wonderful,

(43:14):
like that, we've lost part of our humanity. And I'm
not talking about uki guki spiritual stuff like I I
don't know, I think I'm I think we're pretty normal people.
And and actually to be normal is to have an
understanding of the you know, some grapple of the of
the of the spirit realm, you know.

Speaker 2 (43:36):
And so well, one.

Speaker 4 (43:41):
Let me use the word truism that you see in
all societies, all people, they all seek a superior being everybody.
I mean, I don't care you go to remote places
years ago that they had never even seen anybody. I
mean they're doing they're doing something. You know, they're looking
at the sun. You know, they're so it's in it's

(44:03):
pretty much in eight within.

Speaker 2 (44:05):
Us to seek this out.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (44:09):
Yeah, so I believe it or not, it's too consistent.

Speaker 4 (44:14):
Yeah, the seminos, I mean they're you know, they're seeking
out absolutely a spiritual life.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (44:24):
I always say, just to wrap that thought, I've always
say science anders the house. Spirituality answers the why they
don't have to be inseparable and so if you deny
one of those, you basically have to say that there
is no why, and that's a pretty sad place to live. Yeah,
and you only have the how, and that's not really
a basis for building your life in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (44:46):
Yep, yep. Now I love when little tangents kind of
take you down a road you wouldn't think about. So yeah,
good question, Joshy. Except for how they didn't turn into ants.

Speaker 6 (44:57):
Clearly, God, I'm still giving myself one point for that.

Speaker 1 (45:00):
Yeah, I'm gonna go hide that point.

Speaker 2 (45:02):
Yeah, still exactly get a point for ants?

Speaker 1 (45:08):
Yes, okay, Yeah, can we get a point?

Speaker 2 (45:10):
He was question question number four, Question question number four.
On January first, eighteen thirty eight, the imprisoned. The imprisoned
seminoles were moved from Saint Augustine, Florida, to Charleston, South Carolina,
to more sanitary conditions under the supervision of Captain Pitt

(45:33):
Cairn Morrison. How many seminoles were there? And this was
mentioned at least twice, So I'll give you a hint.
It's more than fifty and less than four hundred.

Speaker 1 (45:47):
In rhymes with foo hundred and forty eight forty.

Speaker 2 (45:56):
Okay, does everybody have an answer, Hey, Spencer movie, it
gives you like two minutes, I give you like fifteen.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
And I'll give you a bonus point if you can
name the name of the ship that they were on. Yeah. Now,
I don't want our tribute to become just like factual trivia.
I would like may wow, Shanna Maria, Yeah, to have like, uh,

(46:26):
maybe maybe throwing a few more questions that were more
like essays conceptual questions.

Speaker 6 (46:33):
Yea.

Speaker 3 (46:34):
For as a history, you look for the concepts.

Speaker 1 (46:36):
Okay, go ahead. Really a good job, go ahead, go ahead.

Speaker 6 (46:40):
So my answer based off of Clay's hit two hundred.

Speaker 3 (46:48):
Okay, man, how do you have time to draw the pictures?

Speaker 2 (46:51):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (46:51):
I did, Honestly, I knew it was two hundred something.

Speaker 2 (46:54):
I did know that, Okay, Okay, Oh good eight and
Clay with the correct answer too, hundred and thirty seven.
That's half a point.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
That's point because there was actually a little math in there,
because she said all two hundred and thirty seven seminoles
and then the next one I referenced and I said
osceola and the other two hundred and thirty six. So yeah, okay.
Great tricks of the podcast in Trade.

Speaker 2 (47:25):
Okay, this one it because it was it was discussed
what was the name of the play that the prisoners
were taking to see at the dock Street Theater and Charleston.

Speaker 1 (47:34):
I feel like you're setting us up for failure when
you say this one.

Speaker 2 (47:37):
Everyone little known fact. Christy and I went on our
twenty fifth anniversary last year. We went to Charleston and
we almost went to go see a play at the
dock Street Theater.

Speaker 1 (47:47):
No way, Yeah, did you really?

Speaker 2 (47:49):
Yep? Wow?

Speaker 1 (47:50):
And y'all have been married a year longer than us two.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
We just celebrated our twenty sixth anniversary. Oh wow, yeah, great.

Speaker 1 (47:57):
How long you been married? Dad?

Speaker 2 (48:00):
I don't remember.

Speaker 4 (48:02):
It's more than fifty Yeah, because we were married.

Speaker 1 (48:10):
Okay, everybody got it from the type.

Speaker 2 (48:13):
Reva Hamilton, Hamilton.

Speaker 1 (48:20):
Okay, those are blanks because I didn't remember Gary nothing.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
It was called the Honeymoon.

Speaker 1 (48:28):
I knew it had something to do with a celestial bean. Yeah, okay, okay, okay.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
This is a This is a a name one of
the artists that painted Ossiola's portraits just before his death.
There were two of them that he mentioned.

Speaker 1 (48:46):
And there were actually a lot more.

Speaker 2 (48:48):
Well, this is the this happened three days before his death.
We need to start.

Speaker 1 (48:59):
Hey, this is the name that do you remember this name?

Speaker 2 (49:02):
Ben?

Speaker 3 (49:03):
I did it rung about with one of the two.

Speaker 1 (49:05):
Yeah, because this guy was really famous, guy Boone?

Speaker 2 (49:08):
Right?

Speaker 1 (49:09):
No, no, no, well.

Speaker 6 (49:12):
Ture sounded like that in the podcast.

Speaker 1 (49:15):
One of them, you guys. No, I did equate this
man painting Ostiola to the young portrait painter. Is the
name has escaped me, But it wasn't. George Catlin painted Boone.

Speaker 2 (49:30):
Well, Clay just gave one of the answers Kyle Carroll.

Speaker 1 (49:35):
Carrol who made this. Kyle is a modern artist in
game War.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
He was our guest on our last frinder.

Speaker 1 (49:44):
Oh that's just right in his end, I can't spells.

Speaker 2 (49:49):
Okay, Well, we're on a roll here, folks, Okay, I
do have to talk about this.

Speaker 1 (49:56):
I really you kind of get the sense when you
these painters. I mean, this was before photography, Like the
only way that the American public would know what someone
looked like if someone painted him. I mean, how cool
would that be? How cool would the pace of life?
It was just interesting?

Speaker 6 (50:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
And then these guys would also, right, I mean they
would sit for hours, days, you know, the Boone. The
Boone portrait painter went to Boone's house and I'll never
I'll never forget this, Like I almost cried when I
read it on the podcast when I you know, on
back in those episodes, just because I don't know. It's

(50:37):
just like a touching human moment. Daniel Boone, this American
archetype of identity frontiersman. He was so unknown when he died.
He was aged eighty four and had been and was
in Missouri and didn't even know his neighbor. This guy
traveled down from one hundred miles via horse, gets within

(50:59):
him like a mile of Boone's house, and he stops
and asks a man, hey, do you know Daniel Boone?
And the guy goes no. And the man's wife overhears
the conversation with a stranger and she goes, yeah, that's
the old man that lives down by the river, you know, yeah,
And he goes, oh, yeah, that old white haired guy.

(51:23):
And then he goes down there and finds Boone roasting
venison on a ramrod over a fire in his house.
Eighty four year old man Daniel Boone, you know, captured
by the Shawnees. They called him a big turtle, never
had a Shawnee wife, loved one woman his whole life. Yeah,

(51:48):
and uh, and then and then Boone dies and and
and that's the only actual portrait of Boone that we have.
And then Osceola dies just days after they paint his portrait.
And these were the first portraits that ever came out
about Ostiola because he was running from the law. I mean,
he was like Osama bin Laden in a way. I mean,

(52:10):
you know, just in the American consciousness, it would have
been like essentially like a terrorist, but people wanted to
know what he looked like people. I think that's fast.

Speaker 3 (52:23):
I appreciated you saying that because we're in our world
of just photos everywhere. Now we got ai can make images.
It's like we don't really appreciate how valuable that stuff is.
That's why Dolly Madison, you know, ran into the White
House to grab George Washington portrait when the British attack
and the word of eighteen twelve.

Speaker 1 (52:41):
It's a good history.

Speaker 3 (52:42):
It's like, this is we got to save this thing,
and yeah, we don't. And it was hard at trying
to get students to appreciate old art because it was
like he cares about this old guy. It's like no man.
That was very significant.

Speaker 1 (52:55):
And then they would always ride about him. That was
the point. This is more of a monologue today. They
would rather description and yeah, and I thought his description
it was a little you know, he talked to me.
It was interesting just the way he described Oscilla's character.
He said, you could search the world and never find

(53:16):
a man like this.

Speaker 7 (53:17):
I think about those guys who sat in silence for
days while they painted there. I remember hearing about the
impact that hairstylists have, like that people just kind of
talk incessantly, And it has to do with the proximity
that someone is to your face and they're touching you
and they're like right in your intimate space. And I

(53:37):
would assume that that would be somewhat similar.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
Yeah, be like me and my barber Drew.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
Shut out. George George Catlan just wanted them.

Speaker 1 (53:55):
I'm coming to see it. Bouddy, look at this springing
ship up and bring him bear. Okay, I will not
be George was one of these barbera and Benton vil Arkins.
You remember the other one, Clay the artist that it was.
George Callen was one of them who was the other
one he was the guy that painted this one. Ye Curtis,

(54:18):
last name Curtis.

Speaker 2 (54:19):
Robert John Curtis. Yeah, yeah, excellent.

Speaker 1 (54:22):
Okay, do you do you When I posted these pictures
on my Instagram, Well, it was a guy that listened
to the podcast. I think sometimes text cannot be translated
sometimes in the spirit it was given. But the guy
was like, oh, man, I can't believe that Ostiola looked
like that. I was expecting a badge to the Bone

(54:43):
Warrior and here this guy is.

Speaker 2 (54:44):
The description says he had an effeminate face.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
They all said that. And anyway, the guy was like
disappointed with the paintings, and h and some other bear
greazers came in and like kind of ridiculed the guy,
like come on, dude, this is And I even got
on there and said, yeah, this wasn't a portrait of Ostiola,
like the in the swamps. This would be this would
be equivalent to like a president wearing a tuxedo being painted,

(55:10):
you know, like, it wasn't like a rugged and it's
not the image of Osiola we want to see. I
got what the guy was saying, like I wanted to
see him out in the swamps and his war war outfit,
which may not have been much different than that. But
but uh, anyway, the guy came later, would come on
when we all started kind of challenging him, and he
was like, man, he was a good guy. He was

(55:32):
just kind of being funny.

Speaker 2 (55:34):
Okay, I've tried to steer away from doing too many dates,
but there's an important date in this podcast. So what
was the date Osciola died?

Speaker 1 (55:43):
Hmmm, that's that's a good one.

Speaker 2 (55:44):
Got it, Okay, Misty January sixth, January sixth, we got
a January sixth, We got a January sixth.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
Bear January sixth, eighteen thirty eight, January sixth, You guys
are influenced by modern American politics. Well, he just.

Speaker 2 (56:03):
Said it's eighteen thirty eight. Gary got the year right,
That's pretty good.

Speaker 1 (56:06):
Dad.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
Is January the thirtieth at six at six am, six
six six, six twenty.

Speaker 1 (56:18):
I think it was six twenty six.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
Well, it was January sixth in the Puckets, that's.

Speaker 1 (56:22):
When they were transported to Charleston.

Speaker 6 (56:24):
That's the only date that I heard in the whole podcast.

Speaker 1 (56:26):
And in that date is now part of American history.
In January sixth, the insurgent.

Speaker 3 (56:32):
It'd be like you saying September eleventh, you're gonna remember that?

Speaker 4 (56:35):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (56:35):
Yeah, Okay, two more questions. Wow, wow, we're running it
down here to whom was the preserved head of Osceola,
reportedly given to by Whedon's son in law, doctor Daniel Whitehurst.
Gentlemen in New York. Famous famous family. Wow, famous family.
Doctor Wickman talked about his family. Last name will work

(56:57):
for me. We're going to start with Gary nukeomb this time. Gary,
good job, Bear nothing Ben.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
I do remember the Motts now that Yeah, I didn't
get it in.

Speaker 2 (57:10):
A ton Rockefeller, Mott, the correct Gary and Clay.

Speaker 1 (57:15):
Here's what this is. This, this is my dream that
everybody that listens to on podcast, every every Bear Greezer
out there, when they walked through the grocery store and
they see Mott apple sauce, that they'll tell their kids
that guy probably in their family. Someone knows where I'll

(57:38):
seeal his head is because because he had it could
be I mean, I I wouldn't that be. I would
be I would be really proud if I overheard that
conversation in that store, little kid and a buggy and
a dad or mom going those guys right, there have

(58:01):
Ostiola's head, Am I right?

Speaker 2 (58:05):
That would be great.

Speaker 6 (58:06):
I don't know if that's something you should say to
your little kid.

Speaker 2 (58:08):
What they should use that in their advertising campaign mon
Apple sauce keepers of the head of Osio.

Speaker 1 (58:15):
I don't know. I don't think the Seminoles would be
happy with that. I don't think that go over well.

Speaker 2 (58:20):
Okay, last question, this is a This is an easy one.
Folks mentioned on two separate podcasts who wrote the hit
song seminole when Blue Blue.

Speaker 1 (58:35):
Surely we're all going to get this.

Speaker 2 (58:44):
Don't show everybody yet, but not everybody's answered. Okay, Misty,
your friends is growing John Anderson, John Anderson.

Speaker 1 (58:59):
The answer is John Anderson, John Anderson.

Speaker 2 (59:05):
So who had the most?

Speaker 3 (59:07):
I had to to one point five for me, I
feel like.

Speaker 6 (59:10):
A Rockefeller should have probably come a little further.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
We've got a tie here. I had two and a half,
two and a half Gary half a point that done
the patriarch of the Wukham family Winter. Let's give Gary
Neukom a hand. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:27):
I don't think.

Speaker 7 (59:27):
Play you should take it personal that we don't remember
the details. It's not really the I wouldn't remember details unless,
like I wrote, something down. That's the only way I remember.

Speaker 1 (59:37):
Well, you need to start taking Yeah, no, no, it
was tough. Okay, we're wrong, We're gonna we're gonna close
down with uh just uh not closed down. But I
want to go around. What was the most impacting part
of this? That what surprised you the most? Did you?
Would you have known that anything about Ostiola Lostola, Arkansas?

Speaker 4 (59:59):
Yeah, there's a yeah, No, I've thought about this quite
a bit, so my answer will be very astute. The
fact that just two thousand of them, the whole American government,
the power of the whole military, couldn't whoop these folks. Yeah,

(01:00:23):
I mean they're still here. In her last comment, that
didn't impact what I was thinking. My thinking was really
there was there was five thousand, ended up being about
two thousand, wasn't there in Florida?

Speaker 1 (01:00:36):
And that number even dwindled down to five hundred.

Speaker 4 (01:00:40):
Yeah, and they just couldn't they couldn't get them out
of swamps.

Speaker 2 (01:00:44):
It.

Speaker 4 (01:00:44):
It kind of reminds me of some wars America has
been in. You know, it's hard to beat a guy
when he's in his own turf. Yeah, So anyway, that
that's kind of pretty wild to me, it is.

Speaker 1 (01:00:58):
It really that's a good that's a good comment. Good comment.
Bear what stood out to you? I think cutting off
the head in the name of science was pretty grimy,
like the putting it in a jar, putting it out,
you know, in his little store there. I don't know.
That part just didn't really make a ton of sense

(01:01:21):
to me. Well, I'm glad you brought that up, because
I want to talk about it. Was he a villain
or was he a man of science? Because did you
not hear the contexts that I built around I thought
that thing by Theta Purdue, the modern paper that was like, hey,
this was the time period when all of a sudden,

(01:01:42):
for the first time in history, the world was interested
in the material culture of ancient civilizations. And what you
didn't see I just read a paragraph out of that
thing was that there was a big movement going on
with the Indian Removal Act of eighteen thirty that everybody
thought that Native Americans were going to be completely wiped

(01:02:04):
out from the earth, like gone, like never, and and
so they were trying to like some people were thinking, man,
we got to preserve this, you know, we got to
somehow hold on to this. As part of history because
that was when the bunch of stuff in Egypt and
all these things started popping up, and we never had

(01:02:27):
interest in that stuff before. So, Okay, here's what I think.
I think that maybe, like to an extent, it was
kind of justifiable in the name of science to cut
off his head. But I think a lot of times,
like in the same way that like, you know, some
like snake guys might be a little bit goofy, like

(01:02:51):
they're really good with snakes, but they're kind of like,
you know, parts of you know, some can be a
little bit just say what you're thinking. I don't know
what you're thinking. I think someone could be a little
bit crazy. I think this guy might have been a
really good scientist chopped off the head, did some good science,
but was also just a little bit crazy. I agree.

(01:03:14):
Putting it out on display in a grocery store or
whatever it was, Yeah, yeah, yeah, an apothecary.

Speaker 7 (01:03:21):
I think that's that was I'm going to jump off
of bear. I'm going to kind of cut in line
because this is the part that.

Speaker 6 (01:03:28):
I did. I disagreed with the context around it. I
think that it just speaks to their total.

Speaker 7 (01:03:38):
Disconcern with the native Americans to just and it.

Speaker 6 (01:03:43):
It made me so sad.

Speaker 7 (01:03:45):
I mean that that's the just how they how little
they thought of them, that they're burial rituals and there,
that they would just you give that to him. I mean,
if you had respect for Osciola, you give that to
his people. You let them, you let them follow their
rituals and mourning green appropriately.

Speaker 1 (01:04:01):
And now I'm not believe me. I'm on Ostiola in
the Seminoles side one hundred percent. That's why I told
the story. But they were prisoners of war. It yeah,
I mean, what did they do? What did they do
when they killed Osama bin Laden dumped his body in
the ocean? Did they not?

Speaker 2 (01:04:22):
I have I don't know. Did they think they did?
Because they didn't.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
They didn't want they didn't want it to be honored
in that culture. If they buried him somewhere, it would become.

Speaker 7 (01:04:34):
It's not you've kind of set it up where we
can't disagree with you or else. Really completely unpatriotic.

Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
No, no, no, I'm on your side. I'm on your side.

Speaker 7 (01:04:43):
I think I just they had enough respect for this
man to want his head so I mean, and to
be intrigued with it.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
I just who who did had enough respect for him
that he wanted his head. I have a different I
have a different opinion, but I don't I don't know
that it's I don't know that you can can classify
as hero or villain. I think he was an opportunist, Yeah,
I think, I mean by the things that he took
off of off of his body, you know, he kept

(01:05:13):
those gorgets, he kept the other things, and then he
kept his head because he was an opportunist. It was
it was I mean, and maybe this makes him a
villains what he was he was. He was an opportunist
and he saw it was a it was a novelty
to him.

Speaker 7 (01:05:29):
Sure, I think opportunist is a really nice way of
saying a greedy Yeah, a greedy jerk. And I think
that's what he was. I think that's what he was.
And to the point of yeah, it's just file Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:05:43):
I couldn't you could tell. When I was talking to
doctor wig Went, I was shocked that she didn't just
immediately go, he's a villain. And I appreciated her trying
to show me the other side of the story that
maybe he wasn't, because it just kind of that's the
thing about history is that you can just label somebody
just like bam, just like villain, and you know, maybe

(01:06:06):
he wasn't because I mean that was two hundred years ago.
Two hundred years ago. Just it doesn't make it right.
But society was way different. And I think it's hard
to get around the fact that these were at this
time as prisoners, powerless people without any rights, and he
knew he could take advantage of it and get away
with it. Like what if it had been a US president,

(01:06:27):
would he have been able to cut off the head
and keep it and nobody cared?

Speaker 8 (01:06:31):
No.

Speaker 1 (01:06:31):
I mean during that time, the Native Americans were absolutely marginalized.
I mean, this is like fifty years before the Civil.

Speaker 2 (01:06:40):
Rightsola was famous by them. He was keeping the head
of someone famous. It wasn't an Indian, it was a
famous leader. Yeah, Native American leader. So I think he
was I think he was looking for I mean, it
was an okwar. I mean I can just picture this guy,
you know that at some point being like, hey, you

(01:07:01):
want to see the head off the.

Speaker 6 (01:07:02):
Old I mean you put it in his grocery store.

Speaker 2 (01:07:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:07:07):
Well, I mean that's that's just what they did. What
I mean that I think I think during that time
and now I think it's also of note that during
that time was was with with well, especially when the
Civil War came. It's like medical science really went through

(01:07:27):
like the roof because they were they had bodies to
study and dissect and do a bunch of weird stuff
that we don't want to talk about. But that's actually
we ride on the shoulders of that knowledge today, you know.
I mean it's like it's like we don't know. Nobody
I know wants to be a mortician. I'm sure there's
some morticians out there listening to Bear.

Speaker 2 (01:07:48):
Greys, thank you for what you do.

Speaker 1 (01:07:50):
Yeah, but it's like somebody's got to do that, and
it and and somebody had to understand the anatomy of
the human body. And it's not a justification for taking
the head of a of of of Ostiola, but it
just kind of puts it into context. I think it
was nefarious, I absolutely do.

Speaker 3 (01:08:09):
I think I think here's there's many things I want
to say. This is actually my takeaway was this story.
If you're gonna villainize villainize something, it shouldn't be the person.
It should be the culture and the mentality that he
grew up in which, like you're saying, absolutely viewed Native
Americans other ethnicities as lesser human and there's plenty of

(01:08:29):
documentation for that, and there was even like a scientific
theory behind that. But I like that you're bringing in
the context because it was kind of a golden age
for science, and we really don't appreciate how much has
happened in the past couple hundred years with that. Even
simple things about people being organ donors, well, you know,

(01:08:50):
in the Middle Ages, that would not be allowed, Like
the Europe was so far behind medically because of this
dogma around corpses and organ and stuff like that. And
and so to bring back like that science discussion from earlier,
scientists have had to had to pioneer and suffer a
lot in the name of getting to find out things

(01:09:13):
that we now benefit from.

Speaker 1 (01:09:15):
Yeah, and.

Speaker 3 (01:09:17):
That's something just to consider, is like, yeah, they had
some jacked up stuff that mentalities, but these guys viewed
themselves as like the cutting edge pioneers. And when there's
a lot of progress, there's some messed up stuff that
happens in the process. But I do think and this
is I'm not a specialist in there in this area.

(01:09:39):
I think if you would have had one hundred guys
in a room just like him, in the same profession,
I think there probably would have been equal number of
guys that wouldn't have been opportunistic, and thought, well, let's
maybe think about this just for a moment, because it
was it is pretty pretty extreme in my opinion.

Speaker 1 (01:09:55):
Yeah, yeah, that's a good that's a good way to say.
You know. What was interesting to me I was surprised
to hear doctor Wickman say that she believed the head
was still around. And then when she began to describe
to me her search for Osiola's head and and and
basically opened up the door of like, oh, if you

(01:10:17):
understand medical the medical systems, and the museum systems and
the archives that some of these places have, you understand
how you could lose a head in a jar, and
how it would be very probable that that head is
somewhere right now and maybe it's unlabeled, or maybe it's
you know, all the different scenarios. And I was fast.

(01:10:38):
I had no idea that she had searched for Osciola's
head as extensively as she had, and uh, she's fully
convinced that it's somewhere and uh and and uh and
and Jake Tiger as I understood it, and I just
took a clip of what he said to what he
said was actually longer, but I mean he actually believes

(01:11:02):
it's in California at that Bohemian club.

Speaker 2 (01:11:05):
Yep.

Speaker 1 (01:11:06):
I mean that's what his somebody in his family had
told him, you know that it's there.

Speaker 2 (01:11:12):
But I think it's one of those things that could
have easily gotten lost in the archives.

Speaker 1 (01:11:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:11:19):
I think it could be sitting on a shelf in
a museum somewhere and people just just wouldn't know it.

Speaker 6 (01:11:23):
Yet or accidentally gotten thrown away.

Speaker 1 (01:11:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (01:11:27):
I think that's just as probable.

Speaker 1 (01:11:29):
Or I thought it was pretty a valid point that
what if you're Duke University and you know you have it,
and you know that if you come out with it
in twenty twenty four that you are going to be
just lambastard by the world. How did you get this?
Why have you not told this until now? And it's

(01:11:51):
like this will never be known that we had this,
you know some you know something like that.

Speaker 2 (01:11:57):
It's doctor Whedon all over again.

Speaker 1 (01:11:59):
Yeah, So if you have the whereabouts of this this
artifact called.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
The seminoles of Florida yep, and.

Speaker 3 (01:12:11):
The music to Unsolved Mystery.

Speaker 6 (01:12:16):
In my entire.

Speaker 1 (01:12:20):
Well, uh yeah, So Josh, what was your favorite part?

Speaker 2 (01:12:25):
I thought it was fascinating just the story of of
how they treated those Indians in Charleston. I mean, taking
them to a play. I mean, that's crazy. It's it's
weird to me. It's always a fascinating to me, the
dichotomy of how people treat some of these prisoners and
that that they're respected and and while at the same

(01:12:49):
time there they're criminals. I was I recently talked with
a I was talking with a with a judge and uh,
he was talking about he used the term and I
can't remember the exact term, but basically.

Speaker 1 (01:13:04):
Were you were you in court?

Speaker 2 (01:13:08):
I'm not allowed to say, but he talked about people
who who were good people who committed crimes, and then
you had people who were clearly just bad people who
committed crimes, and how the jury would often treat these
criminals had they done you know what, I mean, maybe

(01:13:29):
done the same thing, but been lenient with one and
hard on the other. And I think about, you know,
this guy who really I mean, he really just wanted
to protect his land and his people. It wasn't like
he was a terrorist and going and committing acts in
New York City, but he was wanting to and and
people could could sympathize with that. And so I think

(01:13:51):
that that produced this this you know definitely, you know,
being in a prison in in in Florida, lice and
measles and all this stuff, and then being moved to
better conditions than Charleston, and then you know, being taken
to place in town, and it's just it's interesting to
me to see that dichotomy of how how he was

(01:14:13):
treated and then and then you know, just dying from
an infection. You know, who's to say, Who's to say
had he lived, what would have happened to him?

Speaker 1 (01:14:22):
Yeah, you know, who knows. I think guys like that
have would have a hard time living after defeat.

Speaker 2 (01:14:31):
Yep, he probably would have slipped into oblivion somewhere like
Daniel Boone, you know what I mean. Daniel Boom was
famous at one time.

Speaker 1 (01:14:41):
But but I think a guy like Ostiola, and this
is why we're still talking about him, is he was
so he so didn't have a plan B right that
I think if they had took him to Florida, or
they had took n taken him to Oklahoma. I mean,
I don't just something would have happened like what I mean,
he just would have died there because.

Speaker 2 (01:15:02):
He Oh yeah, it would have taken the life out
of him.

Speaker 1 (01:15:06):
Well I'm saying he would have.

Speaker 2 (01:15:08):
Or you think there would have been an uprising?

Speaker 1 (01:15:10):
Yeah, I just I just think that just was like
where he was at. But Misty, what was your favorite part? Well?

Speaker 6 (01:15:19):
I thought, I'm so sorry.

Speaker 1 (01:15:22):
You thought we already talked.

Speaker 6 (01:15:23):
I did. I wasn't planning to say anything else that
sometimes I have to prepare. That's fine, I thought that
I did.

Speaker 7 (01:15:29):
I will just say I did think that what Patricia
did with the play was pretty incredible that she went
and wrote it all down and and then had them
come and read it.

Speaker 6 (01:15:39):
I was just like, this woman's very hard.

Speaker 1 (01:15:43):
I wish, I wish, I wish we could have Patricia.
It would be awful.

Speaker 2 (01:15:49):
Chain I actually got to talk to her on the
phone a little bit, and she is everything that you
hear on the on the podcast.

Speaker 6 (01:15:56):
She would have definitely want.

Speaker 3 (01:15:59):
School trivia.

Speaker 1 (01:16:01):
Wow.

Speaker 6 (01:16:01):
Yeah, yep.

Speaker 1 (01:16:03):
Well, hey, this has been great. This this has been
really great. And the good news is is that there's
a whole nother like full throttle Ossiole episode that and
already already foreshadowed. There's no shadow a full sunned the
what it's going to talk about because in nineteen sixty
seven they exhumed Ossiola's head. Brave body, maybe maybe maybe

(01:16:32):
his head was there.

Speaker 6 (01:16:33):
Say no more, Say no more.

Speaker 2 (01:16:35):
We don't want to full sun everybody.

Speaker 1 (01:16:38):
Well, I mean you got a podcast. No no, no,
I'm just building anticipation for it. I couldn't include it,
like it was just too much to put in this episode.
But like there's a whole nother story thing that happened that.
The plot just keeps getting thicker in like nineteen sixty seven,

(01:16:59):
since you know, since you were alive, they went and
dug up his grave a year after.

Speaker 2 (01:17:03):
I got out of high school.

Speaker 1 (01:17:06):
Is that right? I'll be done.

Speaker 2 (01:17:09):
Were you there?

Speaker 1 (01:17:10):
Well?

Speaker 2 (01:17:10):
No, okay, I missed.

Speaker 1 (01:17:12):
Hey in closing, Uh I killed this buck the other
day and I would have brought that. I've had a
it's been a while since I've had a decent year
bo hunting. U killed that buck and then I killed
another one.

Speaker 2 (01:17:27):
But let me let me guess. One thirty eight.

Speaker 1 (01:17:31):
Five eighths close. YEP, pumped about that, good buck.

Speaker 2 (01:17:38):
Congratulations, Yeah, that's great buck.

Speaker 1 (01:17:40):
Well, thanks guys,