September 1, 2025 • 40 mins
When you hear words like mountain, canyon, or forest, what areas come to your mind first? I would be willing to bet your mind doesn't immediately go to a place below the surface of the water. Well get ready for a wild ride because we are about learn about one of the most commonly brought up, but severly understudied areas of the world, the gulf. Come with us as we hop aboard a research boat with marine biologist, Dr. Holley Muraco and learn more about this fascinating world that has so much left to be discovered.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Backwoods University, a place where we focus on wildlife,
wild places and the people who dedicate their lives to
conserving both. I'm your host, Lake Pickle. On this episode,
we're setting seal into uncharted waters. Literally, we're gonna learn
about one of the most recognizable but still unstudied areas,
(00:23):
the Gulf of Mexico, American.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Y'all know what I am.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Now, Before we dive into the brackish water of this episode,
I want to draw our attention back to part of
a previous conversation that I had with Steve Vanella when
we were just about to launch this podcast. It went
like this, talk about the podcast, what it's gonna be like,
So Backwood University very wildlife biology based, but also like
(01:00):
the influence of humans on these animals positive or negative?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Got it?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
But the influence is usually very strong one way or
the other. Sometimes it's great, sometimes it's not so great.
But no, that's what's kind of focusing in on.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Yeah, nothing has escaped us.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
No, nothing has escaped us. I mean truly, that seems
to be the case. And honestly, with many of the
subjects in previous episodes, I've had at least some knowledge
or hunch of what our specific human influence was going in.
But in this particular episode and the topic of the
Gulf and even more specifically the Mississippi Sound, I didn't
(01:37):
know how much the idea of nothing escaping us would
come into play. I mean, don't get me wrong. I
figured I would find something. I just I didn't think
it would be as shocking as this.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
When you travel to our beautiful Mississippi Gulf coast and
it is, it is beautiful, and I love it. As
you're traveling down Highway ninety and you're looking out at
this beautiful white beach, the first thing you have to
understand is that is they call it a man made beach. Okay,
it's real sand. But what happened was Mississippi did not
(02:11):
have this pristine, beautiful zen beach.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Back in the day. It was a marsh.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
It was a basically multi level estuary marsh land followed
by oyster reefs, and so it was not something you
could go walk on and have a beautiful beach day.
And so the idea was, let's let's have a beach
because it's going to beautiful. And it is and it
(02:37):
is very nice, But what are we going to do
with all that estuary drainage that was there. What they
did was they have storm water pipes. So as you're
driving down our Highway ninety and we're looking at our
beautiful beaches, you're going to see these big black pipes.
Ever so often those black pipes are storm drain runoff water.
(03:01):
It funnels into the sound and all it is. They
took what used to just trickle in and filtered into
a pipe scenario. And unfortunately, those pipes come from an
ever increasing urban area. Humans right, and so DEEQ, Missippi
(03:21):
Department Environmental Quality, DMR, Missippi Department Marine Resources, everyone is
working together to do water testing at those runoff pipes,
and unfortunately, those runoff pipes have occasional bouts of high
levels of ekali and contaminants. That is a problem that
(03:42):
is very well known. And then they make an announcement, Hey,
that beach is closed. No one wants to hear a
beach is closed. So now they just say, we don't
advise to swim and water if you're immune compromised right
now at this particular location. It's problematic on so many levels.
Problematic for tourism, it's problematic for the environment, and the
(04:03):
problem is not right there at the beach level. It's
somewhere up upstream, you know. And so when we can
sort of come up with a solution to help filter
that water before it just basically cap waters into the sound.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Which is what the estuaries were doing.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
What the estuaries were doing. And then imagine also that
all those oyster reefs and oysters are amazing filters. We
have created this environment which we love and it's beautiful,
but now we're going to have to think a little
bit about helping nature help us. So that is absolutely
(04:44):
something that is on the radar down here, and it
is a problem that we are aware of.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
In the nineteen fifties and efforts to generate tourism revenue
and create recreational opportunities, the state of Mississippi undertook construction
of what would be the largest man made beach in
the world in present day, that title has since been
taken over by some of the areas in Dubai, but
it still ranks pretty high up there on the list,
over twenty six miles of man made beach. The real
(05:12):
tragedy here is the marshes, wetlands and estuaries that were
there beforehand.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Those things act as.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Natural water filters, which is crucial because this particular area
is right where the Mississippi River as well as several
other rivers dumped directly into the Gulf, as well as
mainland runoff from ever growing urban areas. And I have
to make a confession here. I'm a Mississippi native. I
have lived here in this state virtually my whole life,
(05:40):
and up until today, I had no idea that those
beaches were constructed by the hand of man. And frankly,
I'm shocked and now my brain is reeling with so
many different questions.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
What are the effects of this?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Is this why beaches in Mississippi get such a stick
for having dirty water? How does this affect the fish?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Our health?
Speaker 1 (06:01):
And ultimately, if I didn't know a fact about my
own backyard that was as big as important as this,
what else do I not know? The voice that you
heard me talking to is doctor Holly Morocco, a marine biologist,
a passionate naturalist and conservationist, and a genuine savant on
the Gulf. Before we dive into this full fledged conversation
(06:24):
with doctor Morocco, I think it's important that we experience
the salty waters of the Gulf and Mississippi Sound for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
All I can think about now is what that would
have looked like.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
Mm hm, imagine giant oorsterifs. You know.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Yeah, well that's a real shame.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
It really is. Times. Yeah, it's a real shame.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
I'm now riding inside doctor Morocco's research boat. We just
left the marina out of Past Christian, Mississippi, and we're
headed to go search for dolphins. But as we shoot
across the top of the choppy water, my eyes are
constantly being drawn back to the white saint beaches. I've
seen these beaches my entire life, but now I just
can't look at them the same. It's really an odd feeling.
(07:09):
It's like a watered down version of finding out Santa
Claus isn't real. I don't really know what to do
with it, to be honest.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
The average stepth of the fountain is twelve feet o kid.
It very shallow area, and it's a wind based tide system,
so the winds are fishing things in and out.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
As Doctor Morocco gives me some quick facts about the
Mississippi Sound, all of us on the boat are constantly
scanning the water trying to catch the glimpse of a dolphin.
It wasn't too long before we saw a dorsal fin
break the surface of the water.
Speaker 5 (07:42):
Oh look, so you're right, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Gonna put it in neutral and we can just sort
of sit there. You go, another another nice little So
this is all.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Feeding behavior right now, when they're popping up and going.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
So we got a lot of good, good action right
in front of us.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
As we sit with the boat in neutral looking at
these dolphins come up for a breath, some of the
crew aboard begins taking pictures with a long lens camera.
My initial thought was they just wanted some good dolphin photos,
but doctor Morocco quickly explained to me that this is
a part of a very extensive project. The pictures are
specifically targeted at the animal's dorsal fin. Unbeknownst to me,
(08:32):
a dolphin can be identified by its dorsal fin, much
like humans can be identified by their fingerprints. Each one
is unique to the individual animal, so creating a catalog
of photos over the years, they're able to learn more
about population density, population health, certain skin diseases that can
be indicators for water quality. It's really fascinating stuff. So
(08:54):
do you do you think, like, so these you're causing
around cat Island and you probably see.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
It the same dolphins like multiple times.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Over absolutely and scientifically we'll be able to prove that
once we have these matching fins, you know, over time
and this can this is this is a little years
of work will help us establish these types of things.
But for now, I we absolutely know we seen the
same dolphins. Gotcha, and this is really prime dolphin nursery habitat.
Dolphins give birth out here.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
What time of here is that?
Speaker 3 (09:22):
And that's here we see most births in late February
and March, gotcha, but it is it could happen anytime
of year.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
Dolphins are able to give birth anytime.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
These will all be bottle thoseed dolphins.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Dolphins, And look at that bird.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
That is a really cool that's frigate birds and frigates.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Come in in the wind.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
But that's a they're really cool figger bird.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
After a few more dolphin viewings and quick lessons, we
turned the boat around and headed back towards the marina.
I learned very quickly that this is a subject that
requires a much more in depth conversation to even begin
to underst stand it all. But before that, I want
to share one more story from the boat ride that
doctor Verrocco refers to as one of her favorite facts
(10:08):
about Mississippi dolphins.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
So I will tell you my favorite dolphins story about
Mississippi dolphins, okay, and that is that we have hardhead
catfish yep, the catfish that live out here with saltwater
catfish yep.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
And they are nasty.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
They have these spines that are like bony spines that
will absolutely kill you.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, it will hurt if.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
You try to pick up a catfish. So in Florida,
dolphins have washed ashore dead with catfish stuck in their esophagus.
So they try to swallow a catfish their spines going
into the esophagus and they're dead. They literally death by
catfish that's trying and need a cap. And that is
not there's our dolphins right there.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Not uncommon.
Speaker 6 (10:55):
When you walk the beaches here in Mississippi, you're gonna
see a catfish head randomly strewn across the beaches. Our
dolphins have learned to pop the heads off with the
spines and eat the body of the cat No kidding.
It is a very specific feeding technique that's been passed
down from generation to generation of dolphins here, and so
(11:16):
whenever you're on the beach and you see a catfish head,
it's probably a twisted spine. That is a dolphin that
has figured out how to flee off the head and eat.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
So our dolphins know how to eat.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Catfish that slick. We got smart dogs.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
We got smart dolphins.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Take that, Florida. Our dolphins are smarter than yours. Anyways,
I want to learn more about this subject. I think
there's a much bigger story here than we realize, and
doctor Morocco is a perfect person to talk to about it.
Tell me about the Mississippi Sound. I know that's a
broad question.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
So the Mississippi Sound basically extends from the Louisiana Mississippi
line all the way over to the Alabama Mississippi line,
and it's bordered by the mainland in the north and
then in the south. We have these beautiful barrier islands
many people have heard of. Some folks may have been
(12:11):
able to visit. The Ship Island is one that people
are able to visit.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
And so these these.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Barrier islands in the northern mainland creates this amazing estuary habitat,
and that is the Mississippi Sound. And I think one
of the things that makes it really remarkable is the
sheer amount of river influence.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
That it has.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
A it's a brackish estuary. The salinity varies, but we
have a ton of river influences, including the Pascagoula River
of course, the Mississippi River borders. We have the Mobile
Delta on the other side, the Bay Saint Louis, the
Wolf River, the Jordan River, And so I think a
lot of times people don't realize just the sheer amount
(12:56):
of river influence that we have for the Sound.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Does all that river influence does it have any like
how much effect does that have on the different species
that we have in the Sound?
Speaker 4 (13:08):
Sure?
Speaker 3 (13:08):
Yeah, yeah. So it's a dynamic habitat. It's a it's
a changing habitat because of that salinity flux. If you
have a lot of rainfall or you know, extra river runoff,
you're gonna have a lot more fresh water entering. Or
if you have a huge storm pushing gulf water you know,
towards the mainland, you're gonna have more salinity. This is
the perfect habitat for oysters. Oysters need a nice balance
(13:32):
of salinity changing Shrimp do really well in this. It's
really good for sediment. Essentially, the Mississippi Sound is a
perfect nursery habitat for young fish for you know, all.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
The fish that we like to fish for as well.
There's a lot of food, a lot of.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Things to eat, and so it's a it's a it's
an incredibly dynamic habitat for for lots of things.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I found this significantly interesting. Within in fluence from multiple rivers,
the Mississippi Sound is what's referred to as brackish water,
which basically means it falls somewhere in between freshwater and saltwater,
and the ratio of saltwater to freshwater can fluctuate depending
on the river influence, which makes for an extremely dynamic
in constantly changing habitat. This results in a unique array
(14:20):
of wildlife diversity in the area. Redfish, speckled trout, flounder,
kobea shrimp, sharks, and dolphins. Just to hit a few
of the high notes. But let's be honest, that's something
a lot of folks know. Let's focus in on something
that not a lot of folks know. Including myself before
this interview. When we talk about managing game species on land,
(14:43):
like deer turkeys, a term that we here come up
all the time is habitat. We recognize it as being
a key part in why species are able to survive
in an area. But in terms of aquatic species, we
tend to know a lot less about what is below
the surface other than the fish themselves, because just like
land animals, aquatic wildlife requires different habitats. And when I
(15:05):
started asking doctor Morocco about the habitat features of the Gulf,
I really started to get my mind blown.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
As you make your way past the Barrier Islands, that's
when you actually enter the Gulf, and as you are
traveling south past the Barrier Islands, you're going to reach
a canyon drop off, the DeSoto Canyon, and it's this
incredibly amazing habitat where the Mississippi River has an influence.
(15:33):
The depth, you know, the massive drop in depth where
you know you're reaching thousands of feet, you know, from
thirty to sixty feet down to hundreds to thousands of feet,
and so it creates this incredible diversity of life in
that area.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
I think we can all agree that when we hear
the word canyon, most of us think about the ones
that we see on land, which goes back to the
point I was making earlier. Few of us think about
the entire world that lives just below the surface of
the salty water we call the ocean. The DeSoto Canyon,
only sixty miles offshore, cuts through the Gulf's soft sloping
(16:13):
continental shelf and forms a giant underwater canyon that is
over three thousand feet deep and forms an incredibly unique
habitat that supports crazy amounts of marine life like corals, fish,
and whales. Some scientists will tell you that we know
less about the floor of the ocean than the surface
of the moon. How crazy is that. I want to
(16:36):
hear doctor Morocco's take on some of the crazy marine
life that lives around this canyon that most of us
are completely unaware of. Tell me about giant squid.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
So I was just absolutely so excited, because of course
I pay attention to these science science things. Being a scientist,
I would be it would be.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Bad if I didn't pay attention.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
But I'm always excited when I hear about researchers from
around the world that come to Gulfport. Mississippi to climb
aboard the r V Point Sir, which is a research vessel. USM,
you know, acquired this vessel not too terribly long ago.
I think they've had it for maybe about ten years.
(17:20):
Don't quote me on that. They acquired this vessel from Monterey, California.
They brought it over and and this this this boat
went to work and it booked solid people that want
to study the golf come to Gulfport, Mississippi to hop
aboard this vessel. And so when I was familiar with
(17:41):
these giant squid researchers that had been working in Japan
and they had been able to develop a lure that
was attracting a giant squid, and I was like, that's cool.
And then this this researcher when they climbed aboard the
Point Sir, and then they put the lure, you know,
right at that Sodo Canyon right it, right right there,
(18:02):
and you know, off of Mississippi and Louisiana, don't you know,
Really quickly a huge giant squid comes up to their
lore and they got it on video, a living giant squid,
the first one ever in North American waters right there,
and and you know, when you think about needle and
a haystack, what are the chances this is clearly something
(18:23):
that is happening right there in our backyard.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Yeah you would.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
I mean you could presume right since if they were
able to pull that off relatively quickly, like hey, that
maybe means there's more of them down there, not just
the only one swimming around was like oh hey.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Right, oh hey just so happened to be there.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
No, absolutely, you know that statistically that means that we
are you know, there there is some incredible habitat for
giant squid and obviously these cephal pods like octopus and
squid and so very very exciting.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
It's something that.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
We could be very proud of collectively as coastal research
to say, you know that we can provide this and
it's something that we need to you know, I just
we can take ownership of these things. You know, we
can be very proud that our southern States have some
incredible marine biodiversity that we can take ownership of.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Allow me to blow Yell's mind for a second. Giant
squid a thought to be exceedingly rare marine animal. These
things have been known to grow up to forty three
feet in length and are rarely ever observed alive, and
the only one ever photographed in North American waters just
happened to take place sixty miles off the Mississippi Gulf
(19:36):
coast in the DeSoto Canyon. Are you kidding me right now?
And this is not even old news. This happened just
around five years ago, and I'm not even done yet.
Guess what else is swimming around in these waters?
Speaker 3 (19:49):
How crazy is it that you could technically potentially have
a well watching tour leave out of Mississippi to go
well watching, which is just absolutely sane. Okay, so it's
a little bit harder than that. But the truth is,
we have a resident population of sperm whales that live
off of our shores, and it ranges anywhere from you know,
(20:12):
fifty to eighty miles. They're living at that canyon drop
off area, that DeSoto Canyon where the Mississippi the Mouth
drains into the Gulf, and we know they're they're there,
they live there. Studies have been few and far between,
so we don't have a full understanding of exactly how
(20:33):
they utilize the habitat, but we do know that we
see moms and calves, we see you know them there
year round and so with you know, it's something that
we need to do a better job of studying and understanding,
especially as the Mississippi River dynamics are in constant flux
(20:54):
and change and the nutrients that are going in that
are potentially feeding the animals these sperm whales are living
off of. We need to understand all of that now,
you know, before something changes, are or if we look
at it now and realize that, you know, potentially we
(21:15):
are we are putting things into the water that don't
need to be there, that are not helping this this
particular population of sperm whales.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
How big are these things?
Speaker 3 (21:26):
So a sperm whale is the largest toothed well and
so you know, little little science, quick quick biology science lesson.
When you think of the big whales, most of the
time you're thinking of something that is a filter feeder.
They have the bayleen. Many people remember that from school,
where they filter these tiny little kreole or little microscopic creatures.
(21:50):
They filter it through those those plates and they feed
that way. So the big giant blue whales and on
back whales, but sperm whales actually have teeth. They are
toothed whales and they are the largest and they're you know,
as long as a school bus and just this absolutely,
you know, an incredible animal that was very important back
(22:13):
in the whaling days when people were you know, harvesting
whales for energy. Sperm whales are one of the most
important ones that they did. Another quick fun fact, we
had a whaling industry in the.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Golf really at wet sure did in the Gulf. In
the Gulf, people like going out of Mississippi, even going.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Out of Mississippi Louisiana and going down there and literally
harpooning sperm whales in the Gulf. I know, I've been
doing as much digging as I can, and not being
a historian, I haven't necessarily had the time but our energy,
but it's been I've done enough to know that How
crazy is it that that we had whaling here?
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Raise your hand if you knew there was a resident
population of sperm whales right off the Mississippi coast. Raise
your hand if you knew there was once a whaling
industry that operated out of Mississippi and Louisiana. I know
y'all can't see me right now, but rest assured my
hand is not raised I had no idea, and this
stuff is blowing my mind. Be on the lookout for
(23:14):
a future episode diving into that whaling industry, but for now,
I've got to learn more about this underwater world that
apparently I know nothing about.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
There are mountains and canyons and forests and different systems
that are living there, and everything is working together to survive.
One of my favorite interests that's fairly local is a
mountain called Mountain Top bank Reef literally Mountaintop bank Reef,
and it is located south of the Barrier Islands. It's
(23:50):
about eighty miles offshore of Mississippi before the canyon drop off.
We have a deep sea coral reef called Mountaintop bank Reef.
And was out doing some exploration, just bathymetry, looking at things,
and they accidentally stumbled upon this coral reef that we
have off of our you know, off of our mainland,
(24:11):
and it's incredible. It's a mountain that extends up it's
about two hundred feet below the water surface and it
goes down about four hundred feet, but it is a
literal mountain and we have coral growing on it, and
it's something that I'm very very inspired to want to
go take a closer look at.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
So you're saying usm figured out that was there, Yes,
when did that happen?
Speaker 3 (24:33):
And I think it was like twenty nineteen, it's really recent, Okay,
So that affirms what I was thinking is it's like
I hear prepping for this episode and like just kind
of getting curious about the ocean and marine.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
All that stuff, and all I heard from several different
resources and different individual researchers and biologists they're like, man,
there's just so much we don't know so much. So
you're talking about within our own you know, like like
basically in our backyard there.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Is an entire an entire coral reef.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
And mountain that we that we just found in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
That we just found. Yep.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Yeah, it's incredible. It's incredible.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
I'm gonna ask it might be a silly question, like
other than other than like the physical barrier of like
it's it's a lot easier for us to go find
a terrestrial mountain or you know, observe something on land,
Like is there any more outlying reasons why we don't
know as much about this kind of stuff or why
it's there's stuff like that still undiscovered.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
You know, I think we the Gulf has received a
lot of interests for what we can extract from it,
so from the you know, extracting oil, natural gas, things
like that, and so there's been quite a lot of
studies to understand the underlying my imagery of the golf
(26:02):
and the depths, and so we actually have a lot
of good baseline data, but it is just very much
it's this depth, it's this type of you know, of structure.
It's something that would be good you know, to drill
or not good to drill. Aside from that, these more
biology ecology things have not received the same attention. And
(26:25):
so this particular coral reef had gone unknown simply because
no one had ever actually looked. They had done this
on our scans, they had understood that this is something
that was there, but until USM went down with an
r o V. An r o V is a remote
operated vehicle, a super fancy term for basically a robot
(26:48):
that goes down with a camera. That's when they got
visual eyes on it. And so one of my grants,
my more recent grants, is I've actually applied to get
myself an ro O v that I can take out,
because sometimes you just need to put eyeballs on things. Yeah,
and that's exactly what it was. It was something as
simple as let's just go look at that, and they did,
(27:10):
and sure enough, Wow, we have this. It's an incredible
ecosystem right there. The few corals that they were able
to identify are more of the deep sea coral, which
is something that's even more unknown than when we think
of these tropical reefs. So there's there's new species that
will ultimately be discovered if someone goes in looks this
(27:32):
is you know, it's it's very pristine habitat. But at
the same time, they as they were traveling over in
some of the documentation that they shared on the with
the media, there was some some marine debris laying on
this this reef, and so of course, you know, we
can't we can't escape that.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
I don't believe.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
But this is why we need to study these things.
This is now is the time to go down there
and figure out you know, let let's understand its role.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
There's a researcher over.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
In Alabama who coined the mobile tint All Delta as
America's Amazon Mississippi Louisiana and Alabama.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
We have so much river influence.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
We are literally America's Amazon right here because we have
such incredible biodiversity, and it's something that that term. Coining
that term really helps people grasp the sheer amazingness that
this is. We are America's Amazon, and this is important.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
I want us to think back a few episodes when
we were talking with the black bear biologist Anthony Ballard
about some of the controversies surrounding the black bear recovery
in Mississippi. He said, in so many words, that we
as humans have a habit of looking at wildlife in
terms of what can.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
It do for me?
Speaker 1 (28:54):
And let me be clear, I'm not here at all
to try and demonize humans using natural resource. For one,
that would be super hypocritical of me. And two, we
need our natural resources for a long list of reasons.
I'm simply saying that we don't just do that with wildlife.
We do that with our land and our water as well.
(29:14):
And evidence would heavily suggest that we sometimes can think
about that way too acutely, too narrowly, so narrowly that
we sometimes don't think about the down the road consequences.
A perfect example of this would be the prior mentioned
man made beaches of Mississippi. The land wasn't serving us
the way that we wanted it to, so we physically
(29:36):
constructed a beach, and in doing so, we ripped out
the estuaries, and that decision affects the overall quality of
the Mississippi Sound and the Gulf to this very day.
And now doctor Morocco was telling us that much of
the reason that there is still so much unknown in
this area is that we haven't looked into it and
studied it much beyond reasons that would serve us. What
(29:59):
can we extract from it? And again, just to emphasize,
I am not proposing that we shouldn't extract things that
we need. I'm simply saying, maybe we should consider getting
more of a big picture view of this entire ecosystem,
how it operates, and the role it plays. Doing this
would allow us to make much more informed decisions and
(30:21):
how we can still get what natural resources we need
without ruining something vital in the process. Y'all know the
old saying, don't throw out the baby with the gulf
water or something like that.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Kudos to the occasional scientist who has tried to bring
attention to these things, and our federal partners, Noah the
Great Keith Mullen worked for Noah for many years and
he's been out there, you know, publishing papers and working
hard and trying to you know, explain these things. But
outside of that, we have not had the capacity in Louisiana, Misissippi,
(31:00):
Alabama to conduct these studies. And it's all mostly because
most people don't even know it's there. And so one
of the things that I'm trying to do here at
Mississippi State is say, these things are there, and we
need to take ownership of it, and we need to
build that capacity so that we can study it.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
We we have all this there, we have all these
we have all this diversity, we have all these different
marine mammals. We haven't even talked about dolphin. Yeah, why
why like why do we need to take ownership of it?
Speaker 4 (31:33):
You know?
Speaker 3 (31:34):
We we definitely place value, you know, in Mississippi own
on those things that we can hunt, our fish, which
is very important and I and I get it. And
outside of the things that you can hunt and fish,
sometimes they don't get as much attention. And that is
the question, Well, what is it going to do for me.
(31:55):
And so my program is called Coastal One Health and
what I am doing is utilizing these marine mammals as
the canary and the coal mine, and by studying them
and understanding their health and how well they're doing, they
are telling us how how well the environment is doing.
And by studying it, we can not only help ourselves
(32:18):
and the health of humans, but we can use that
to understand the health of our environment. And is there
something that we can do to improve? Are there, you know,
things that we can do to to help these animals
do better? So ultimately that will help us.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yeah, how I mean, what's the the state of the
the Gulf the Mississippi sound like?
Speaker 4 (32:42):
Are are we healthy?
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Are we do we need?
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Are we not healthy?
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Where are we at?
Speaker 4 (32:48):
Well?
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Unfortunately, there's not a simple answer for that.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
We are.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Facing numerous challenges. You know, the oil spill didn't do
us any favors.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
I wouldn't imagine, so.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
So, you know, as horrible as the oil spill was,
that really launched a effort for these southern states to
take a look at the biology and the health of
the environment. And I can honestly say before the oil spill,
there was not nearly as much opportunity to study these things.
(33:23):
And so since then we realize that we are dealing
with aftermath of oil spill, but we're also gaining a
better understanding of what all this river runoff is doing
into the gulf, and so a lot of this runoff
is going to have human, you know, negative human effects.
(33:44):
These are things that once we understand exactly what is
coming into our water, be it pollutants, agricultural runoff, antibiotics,
bacterial pathogens, then we can go to that source and say,
is there a way that we can reduce this amount
(34:07):
of runoff going into our golf? And I see us
right now in that position. We are in the still
data gathering position, still trying to understand the big picture
of what's happening. And so once we want, you know,
keep supporting these researchers, keep supporting these you know, the
folks that are down here working hard, and then we'll
(34:28):
be able to come up with some solutions. We can
all coexist. It's it's going to you know, we have
an amazing, amazing place down here for fishermen, be it
commercial or recreational. We have you know, incredible habitat. We
have all of these dolphins. We can all we can
all survive together, we can all do well together. And
(34:48):
so that's where I really appreciate the fishermen. And then
I also am very appreciative of our commercial shrimpers, particularly
that especially are you know, artisanal, These these local shrimpers
who are working so hard to make a living and
you know, shrimping for this fresh golf shrimp, you know,
(35:10):
highly supportive of them. But what's fascinating to me is
we have dolphins, our dolphins that live out in the sound.
Generation after generation have been have been chasing shrimp boats.
These these mama dolphins are not dumb. They they teach
their young how to safely chase the shrimp boat, so
(35:30):
to speak. And I'm very fascinated in that interaction that
these dolphins are benefiting from these shrimpers because of the
bycatch are you know, as they're stirring up the sediment
and fish or moving, these dolphins can take advantage of it.
And so I'm very excited to learn more knowledge about
that and study those interactions, but also show this is
(35:52):
a coexistence.
Speaker 4 (35:53):
Example.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Some people are like if humans just disappeared, everything would
be fine, okay.
Speaker 4 (35:58):
In nature, sure, you can't think like that. Though.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
You cannot think like that. And I don't like to
think like that. I I you know, we're here. We
we deserve a space and this planet as well. But
we can also take advantage and understand, especially the dolphin
fishing coexistence, to say, all right, what can we learn
about this coexistence?
Speaker 4 (36:22):
You know, situation.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
These dolphins have learned this, and and and these fishermen
know these dolphins. We need more research. It's a big place,
there's there's a room for for more research. And there's
no reason why we can't have our Mississippi kids and
students who have this dream of studying dolphins, Why they
cannot graduate from one of our universities and we can
(36:44):
put them to work studying dolphins in the Sound.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
And just there's just seemingly a lot for us to
figure out, like a whole lot.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
There's so so so much.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
If I were to say, you know, look into the future,
strip away all worry and just leave me with optimism. Sure,
what does this program look like? What does the Mississippi
Sound look like? What does the overall health of the
golf look like?
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Sure?
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yeah? No, what I what I would love to envision
is a little bit of a mindset change, and in
the terrestrial world it's a growing momentum. People are starting
to grasp the concept of native plants yep, and how
native plants serve the health of the environment better than
(37:34):
non native plants, something as simple as that. So you
have a home in a suburb, you have this lawn
that you you have to put pesticides on, you have
to put fertilize your own, you have to use water
on to create this sort of green stamp. You know
that that is considered beautiful still by most people. We
(37:56):
may have to change our mindset where maybe beautiful looks
a little different than what we think. And so where
I take that is with our Gulf coast. We see beautiful,
pristine zen white sand is beautiful, and it is, it
has its beauty, But we're probably going to have to
(38:16):
give nature back a few of those areas to be
able to do its filtering work for us. And when
we look at those areas, there's going to be marsh
grass and there's going to be you know, tidal surges
that are gonna.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
Not always look pretty.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Areas where we don't just grade it to have these
perfect zen lines where we allow the benthic invertebrates to
do their thing. And so my vision is as we
drive down ninety, we're going to have some of that
beautiful sand, but we're going to also have marsh back diversity,
some diversity, and we're going to have people understanding the.
Speaker 4 (38:54):
Beauty of that biodiversity. How cool is it to.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Be able to take a walk through a nature marsh,
you know, next to a beach, and see all of
all of the wildlife in it.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
With the understanding that it's supposed to be there.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
It's supposed to be there.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
I believe. I believe that we can. We can we
can utilize the resources humans and we can provide a
healthy environment for these these creatures to survive as well,
and we can all co exist.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
There's a balance to it.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Absolutely absolutely, It's not all doom and gloom. You know,
it's sometimes it's really difficult and you can go down
some crazy, scary rabbit holes. But I do believe I'm
approaching this from the standpoint of we're all in this together,
and we are smart, and we can all do this together.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Yeah, So you're going at a glass half full.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Absolutely, absolutely, Otherwise I think I would I'd probably not
be able to do this job.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
I want to thank all of you for listening to
Backwoods University as well as Bear Grease in this country life.
And I want to give a big shout out out
to Onyx Hunt for making this podcast possible. If you
liked this episode, share it with somebody that you bet
had no idea that we had giant squids swimming around
in North American waters, and stick around because if this
podcast was the Gulf, we've only gone three feet below
(40:15):
the surface. There's a whole lot more on the way.
Welcome to Backwoods University, a place where we focus on wildlife,
wild places and the people who dedicate their lives to
conserving both. I'm your host, Lake Pickle. On this episode,
we're setting seal into uncharted waters. Literally, we're gonna learn
about one of the most recognizable but still unstudied areas,
(00:23):
the Gulf of Mexico, American.
Speaker 2 (00:26):
Y'all know what I am.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Now, Before we dive into the brackish water of this episode,
I want to draw our attention back to part of
a previous conversation that I had with Steve Vanella when
we were just about to launch this podcast. It went
like this, talk about the podcast, what it's gonna be like,
So Backwood University very wildlife biology based, but also like
(01:00):
the influence of humans on these animals positive or negative?
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Got it?
Speaker 1 (01:04):
But the influence is usually very strong one way or
the other. Sometimes it's great, sometimes it's not so great.
But no, that's what's kind of focusing in on.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Yeah, nothing has escaped us.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
No, nothing has escaped us. I mean truly, that seems
to be the case. And honestly, with many of the
subjects in previous episodes, I've had at least some knowledge
or hunch of what our specific human influence was going in.
But in this particular episode and the topic of the
Gulf and even more specifically the Mississippi Sound, I didn't
(01:37):
know how much the idea of nothing escaping us would
come into play. I mean, don't get me wrong. I
figured I would find something. I just I didn't think
it would be as shocking as this.
Speaker 3 (01:49):
When you travel to our beautiful Mississippi Gulf coast and
it is, it is beautiful, and I love it. As
you're traveling down Highway ninety and you're looking out at
this beautiful white beach, the first thing you have to
understand is that is they call it a man made beach. Okay,
it's real sand. But what happened was Mississippi did not
(02:11):
have this pristine, beautiful zen beach.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Back in the day. It was a marsh.
Speaker 3 (02:17):
It was a basically multi level estuary marsh land followed
by oyster reefs, and so it was not something you
could go walk on and have a beautiful beach day.
And so the idea was, let's let's have a beach
because it's going to beautiful. And it is and it
(02:37):
is very nice, But what are we going to do
with all that estuary drainage that was there. What they
did was they have storm water pipes. So as you're
driving down our Highway ninety and we're looking at our
beautiful beaches, you're going to see these big black pipes.
Ever so often those black pipes are storm drain runoff water.
(03:01):
It funnels into the sound and all it is. They
took what used to just trickle in and filtered into
a pipe scenario. And unfortunately, those pipes come from an
ever increasing urban area. Humans right, and so DEEQ, Missippi
(03:21):
Department Environmental Quality, DMR, Missippi Department Marine Resources, everyone is
working together to do water testing at those runoff pipes,
and unfortunately, those runoff pipes have occasional bouts of high
levels of ekali and contaminants. That is a problem that
(03:42):
is very well known. And then they make an announcement, Hey,
that beach is closed. No one wants to hear a
beach is closed. So now they just say, we don't
advise to swim and water if you're immune compromised right
now at this particular location. It's problematic on so many levels.
Problematic for tourism, it's problematic for the environment, and the
(04:03):
problem is not right there at the beach level. It's
somewhere up upstream, you know. And so when we can
sort of come up with a solution to help filter
that water before it just basically cap waters into the sound.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Which is what the estuaries were doing.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
What the estuaries were doing. And then imagine also that
all those oyster reefs and oysters are amazing filters. We
have created this environment which we love and it's beautiful,
but now we're going to have to think a little
bit about helping nature help us. So that is absolutely
(04:44):
something that is on the radar down here, and it
is a problem that we are aware of.
Speaker 1 (04:49):
In the nineteen fifties and efforts to generate tourism revenue
and create recreational opportunities, the state of Mississippi undertook construction
of what would be the largest man made beach in
the world in present day, that title has since been
taken over by some of the areas in Dubai, but
it still ranks pretty high up there on the list,
over twenty six miles of man made beach. The real
(05:12):
tragedy here is the marshes, wetlands and estuaries that were
there beforehand.
Speaker 2 (05:17):
Those things act as.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Natural water filters, which is crucial because this particular area
is right where the Mississippi River as well as several
other rivers dumped directly into the Gulf, as well as
mainland runoff from ever growing urban areas. And I have
to make a confession here. I'm a Mississippi native. I
have lived here in this state virtually my whole life,
(05:40):
and up until today, I had no idea that those
beaches were constructed by the hand of man. And frankly,
I'm shocked and now my brain is reeling with so
many different questions.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
What are the effects of this?
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Is this why beaches in Mississippi get such a stick
for having dirty water? How does this affect the fish?
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Our health?
Speaker 1 (06:01):
And ultimately, if I didn't know a fact about my
own backyard that was as big as important as this,
what else do I not know? The voice that you
heard me talking to is doctor Holly Morocco, a marine biologist,
a passionate naturalist and conservationist, and a genuine savant on
the Gulf. Before we dive into this full fledged conversation
(06:24):
with doctor Morocco, I think it's important that we experience
the salty waters of the Gulf and Mississippi Sound for ourselves.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
All I can think about now is what that would
have looked like.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
Mm hm, imagine giant oorsterifs. You know.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
Yeah, well that's a real shame.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
It really is. Times. Yeah, it's a real shame.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
I'm now riding inside doctor Morocco's research boat. We just
left the marina out of Past Christian, Mississippi, and we're
headed to go search for dolphins. But as we shoot
across the top of the choppy water, my eyes are
constantly being drawn back to the white saint beaches. I've
seen these beaches my entire life, but now I just
can't look at them the same. It's really an odd feeling.
(07:09):
It's like a watered down version of finding out Santa
Claus isn't real. I don't really know what to do
with it, to be honest.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
The average stepth of the fountain is twelve feet o kid.
It very shallow area, and it's a wind based tide system,
so the winds are fishing things in and out.
Speaker 1 (07:30):
As Doctor Morocco gives me some quick facts about the
Mississippi Sound, all of us on the boat are constantly
scanning the water trying to catch the glimpse of a dolphin.
It wasn't too long before we saw a dorsal fin
break the surface of the water.
Speaker 5 (07:42):
Oh look, so you're right, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
Gonna put it in neutral and we can just sort
of sit there. You go, another another nice little So
this is all.
Speaker 4 (08:01):
Feeding behavior right now, when they're popping up and going.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
So we got a lot of good, good action right
in front of us.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
As we sit with the boat in neutral looking at
these dolphins come up for a breath, some of the
crew aboard begins taking pictures with a long lens camera.
My initial thought was they just wanted some good dolphin photos,
but doctor Morocco quickly explained to me that this is
a part of a very extensive project. The pictures are
specifically targeted at the animal's dorsal fin. Unbeknownst to me,
(08:32):
a dolphin can be identified by its dorsal fin, much
like humans can be identified by their fingerprints. Each one
is unique to the individual animal, so creating a catalog
of photos over the years, they're able to learn more
about population density, population health, certain skin diseases that can
be indicators for water quality. It's really fascinating stuff. So
(08:54):
do you do you think, like, so these you're causing
around cat Island and you probably see.
Speaker 2 (08:58):
It the same dolphins like multiple times.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
Over absolutely and scientifically we'll be able to prove that
once we have these matching fins, you know, over time
and this can this is this is a little years
of work will help us establish these types of things.
But for now, I we absolutely know we seen the
same dolphins. Gotcha, and this is really prime dolphin nursery habitat.
Dolphins give birth out here.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
What time of here is that?
Speaker 3 (09:22):
And that's here we see most births in late February
and March, gotcha, but it is it could happen anytime
of year.
Speaker 4 (09:30):
Dolphins are able to give birth anytime.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
These will all be bottle thoseed dolphins.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Dolphins, And look at that bird.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
That is a really cool that's frigate birds and frigates.
Speaker 4 (09:42):
Come in in the wind.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
But that's a they're really cool figger bird.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
After a few more dolphin viewings and quick lessons, we
turned the boat around and headed back towards the marina.
I learned very quickly that this is a subject that
requires a much more in depth conversation to even begin
to underst stand it all. But before that, I want
to share one more story from the boat ride that
doctor Verrocco refers to as one of her favorite facts
(10:08):
about Mississippi dolphins.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
So I will tell you my favorite dolphins story about
Mississippi dolphins, okay, and that is that we have hardhead
catfish yep, the catfish that live out here with saltwater
catfish yep.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
And they are nasty.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
They have these spines that are like bony spines that
will absolutely kill you.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, it will hurt if.
Speaker 3 (10:31):
You try to pick up a catfish. So in Florida,
dolphins have washed ashore dead with catfish stuck in their esophagus.
So they try to swallow a catfish their spines going
into the esophagus and they're dead. They literally death by
catfish that's trying and need a cap. And that is
not there's our dolphins right there.
Speaker 4 (10:52):
Not uncommon.
Speaker 6 (10:55):
When you walk the beaches here in Mississippi, you're gonna
see a catfish head randomly strewn across the beaches. Our
dolphins have learned to pop the heads off with the
spines and eat the body of the cat No kidding.
It is a very specific feeding technique that's been passed
down from generation to generation of dolphins here, and so
(11:16):
whenever you're on the beach and you see a catfish head,
it's probably a twisted spine. That is a dolphin that
has figured out how to flee off the head and eat.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
So our dolphins know how to eat.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
Catfish that slick. We got smart dogs.
Speaker 3 (11:29):
We got smart dolphins.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Take that, Florida. Our dolphins are smarter than yours. Anyways,
I want to learn more about this subject. I think
there's a much bigger story here than we realize, and
doctor Morocco is a perfect person to talk to about it.
Tell me about the Mississippi Sound. I know that's a
broad question.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
So the Mississippi Sound basically extends from the Louisiana Mississippi
line all the way over to the Alabama Mississippi line,
and it's bordered by the mainland in the north and
then in the south. We have these beautiful barrier islands
many people have heard of. Some folks may have been
(12:11):
able to visit. The Ship Island is one that people
are able to visit.
Speaker 4 (12:15):
And so these these.
Speaker 3 (12:16):
Barrier islands in the northern mainland creates this amazing estuary habitat,
and that is the Mississippi Sound. And I think one
of the things that makes it really remarkable is the
sheer amount of river influence.
Speaker 4 (12:32):
That it has.
Speaker 3 (12:33):
A it's a brackish estuary. The salinity varies, but we
have a ton of river influences, including the Pascagoula River
of course, the Mississippi River borders. We have the Mobile
Delta on the other side, the Bay Saint Louis, the
Wolf River, the Jordan River, And so I think a
lot of times people don't realize just the sheer amount
(12:56):
of river influence that we have for the Sound.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Does all that river influence does it have any like
how much effect does that have on the different species
that we have in the Sound?
Speaker 4 (13:08):
Sure?
Speaker 3 (13:08):
Yeah, yeah. So it's a dynamic habitat. It's a it's
a changing habitat because of that salinity flux. If you
have a lot of rainfall or you know, extra river runoff,
you're gonna have a lot more fresh water entering. Or
if you have a huge storm pushing gulf water you know,
towards the mainland, you're gonna have more salinity. This is
the perfect habitat for oysters. Oysters need a nice balance
(13:32):
of salinity changing Shrimp do really well in this. It's
really good for sediment. Essentially, the Mississippi Sound is a
perfect nursery habitat for young fish for you know, all.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
The fish that we like to fish for as well.
There's a lot of food, a lot of.
Speaker 3 (13:49):
Things to eat, and so it's a it's a it's
an incredibly dynamic habitat for for lots of things.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I found this significantly interesting. Within in fluence from multiple rivers,
the Mississippi Sound is what's referred to as brackish water,
which basically means it falls somewhere in between freshwater and saltwater,
and the ratio of saltwater to freshwater can fluctuate depending
on the river influence, which makes for an extremely dynamic
in constantly changing habitat. This results in a unique array
(14:20):
of wildlife diversity in the area. Redfish, speckled trout, flounder,
kobea shrimp, sharks, and dolphins. Just to hit a few
of the high notes. But let's be honest, that's something
a lot of folks know. Let's focus in on something
that not a lot of folks know. Including myself before
this interview. When we talk about managing game species on land,
(14:43):
like deer turkeys, a term that we here come up
all the time is habitat. We recognize it as being
a key part in why species are able to survive
in an area. But in terms of aquatic species, we
tend to know a lot less about what is below
the surface other than the fish themselves, because just like
land animals, aquatic wildlife requires different habitats. And when I
(15:05):
started asking doctor Morocco about the habitat features of the Gulf,
I really started to get my mind blown.
Speaker 3 (15:11):
As you make your way past the Barrier Islands, that's
when you actually enter the Gulf, and as you are
traveling south past the Barrier Islands, you're going to reach
a canyon drop off, the DeSoto Canyon, and it's this
incredibly amazing habitat where the Mississippi River has an influence.
(15:33):
The depth, you know, the massive drop in depth where
you know you're reaching thousands of feet, you know, from
thirty to sixty feet down to hundreds to thousands of feet,
and so it creates this incredible diversity of life in
that area.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
I think we can all agree that when we hear
the word canyon, most of us think about the ones
that we see on land, which goes back to the
point I was making earlier. Few of us think about
the entire world that lives just below the surface of
the salty water we call the ocean. The DeSoto Canyon,
only sixty miles offshore, cuts through the Gulf's soft sloping
(16:13):
continental shelf and forms a giant underwater canyon that is
over three thousand feet deep and forms an incredibly unique
habitat that supports crazy amounts of marine life like corals, fish,
and whales. Some scientists will tell you that we know
less about the floor of the ocean than the surface
of the moon. How crazy is that. I want to
(16:36):
hear doctor Morocco's take on some of the crazy marine
life that lives around this canyon that most of us
are completely unaware of. Tell me about giant squid.
Speaker 3 (16:46):
So I was just absolutely so excited, because of course
I pay attention to these science science things. Being a scientist,
I would be it would be.
Speaker 4 (16:58):
Bad if I didn't pay attention.
Speaker 3 (16:59):
But I'm always excited when I hear about researchers from
around the world that come to Gulfport. Mississippi to climb
aboard the r V Point Sir, which is a research vessel. USM,
you know, acquired this vessel not too terribly long ago.
I think they've had it for maybe about ten years.
(17:20):
Don't quote me on that. They acquired this vessel from Monterey, California.
They brought it over and and this this this boat
went to work and it booked solid people that want
to study the golf come to Gulfport, Mississippi to hop
aboard this vessel. And so when I was familiar with
(17:41):
these giant squid researchers that had been working in Japan
and they had been able to develop a lure that
was attracting a giant squid, and I was like, that's cool.
And then this this researcher when they climbed aboard the
Point Sir, and then they put the lure, you know,
right at that Sodo Canyon right it, right right there,
(18:02):
and you know, off of Mississippi and Louisiana, don't you know,
Really quickly a huge giant squid comes up to their
lore and they got it on video, a living giant squid,
the first one ever in North American waters right there,
and and you know, when you think about needle and
a haystack, what are the chances this is clearly something
(18:23):
that is happening right there in our backyard.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Yeah you would.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
I mean you could presume right since if they were
able to pull that off relatively quickly, like hey, that
maybe means there's more of them down there, not just
the only one swimming around was like oh hey.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Right, oh hey just so happened to be there.
Speaker 3 (18:41):
No, absolutely, you know that statistically that means that we
are you know, there there is some incredible habitat for
giant squid and obviously these cephal pods like octopus and
squid and so very very exciting.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
It's something that.
Speaker 3 (18:55):
We could be very proud of collectively as coastal research
to say, you know that we can provide this and
it's something that we need to you know, I just
we can take ownership of these things. You know, we
can be very proud that our southern States have some
incredible marine biodiversity that we can take ownership of.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Allow me to blow Yell's mind for a second. Giant
squid a thought to be exceedingly rare marine animal. These
things have been known to grow up to forty three
feet in length and are rarely ever observed alive, and
the only one ever photographed in North American waters just
happened to take place sixty miles off the Mississippi Gulf
(19:36):
coast in the DeSoto Canyon. Are you kidding me right now?
And this is not even old news. This happened just
around five years ago, and I'm not even done yet.
Guess what else is swimming around in these waters?
Speaker 3 (19:49):
How crazy is it that you could technically potentially have
a well watching tour leave out of Mississippi to go
well watching, which is just absolutely sane. Okay, so it's
a little bit harder than that. But the truth is,
we have a resident population of sperm whales that live
off of our shores, and it ranges anywhere from you know,
(20:12):
fifty to eighty miles. They're living at that canyon drop
off area, that DeSoto Canyon where the Mississippi the Mouth
drains into the Gulf, and we know they're they're there,
they live there. Studies have been few and far between,
so we don't have a full understanding of exactly how
(20:33):
they utilize the habitat, but we do know that we
see moms and calves, we see you know them there
year round and so with you know, it's something that
we need to do a better job of studying and understanding,
especially as the Mississippi River dynamics are in constant flux
(20:54):
and change and the nutrients that are going in that
are potentially feeding the animals these sperm whales are living
off of. We need to understand all of that now,
you know, before something changes, are or if we look
at it now and realize that, you know, potentially we
(21:15):
are we are putting things into the water that don't
need to be there, that are not helping this this
particular population of sperm whales.
Speaker 4 (21:24):
How big are these things?
Speaker 3 (21:26):
So a sperm whale is the largest toothed well and
so you know, little little science, quick quick biology science lesson.
When you think of the big whales, most of the
time you're thinking of something that is a filter feeder.
They have the bayleen. Many people remember that from school,
where they filter these tiny little kreole or little microscopic creatures.
(21:50):
They filter it through those those plates and they feed
that way. So the big giant blue whales and on
back whales, but sperm whales actually have teeth. They are
toothed whales and they are the largest and they're you know,
as long as a school bus and just this absolutely,
you know, an incredible animal that was very important back
(22:13):
in the whaling days when people were you know, harvesting
whales for energy. Sperm whales are one of the most
important ones that they did. Another quick fun fact, we
had a whaling industry in the.
Speaker 1 (22:24):
Golf really at wet sure did in the Gulf. In
the Gulf, people like going out of Mississippi, even going.
Speaker 3 (22:31):
Out of Mississippi Louisiana and going down there and literally
harpooning sperm whales in the Gulf. I know, I've been
doing as much digging as I can, and not being
a historian, I haven't necessarily had the time but our energy,
but it's been I've done enough to know that How
crazy is it that that we had whaling here?
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Raise your hand if you knew there was a resident
population of sperm whales right off the Mississippi coast. Raise
your hand if you knew there was once a whaling
industry that operated out of Mississippi and Louisiana. I know
y'all can't see me right now, but rest assured my
hand is not raised I had no idea, and this
stuff is blowing my mind. Be on the lookout for
(23:14):
a future episode diving into that whaling industry, but for now,
I've got to learn more about this underwater world that
apparently I know nothing about.
Speaker 3 (23:26):
There are mountains and canyons and forests and different systems
that are living there, and everything is working together to survive.
One of my favorite interests that's fairly local is a
mountain called Mountain Top bank Reef literally Mountaintop bank Reef,
and it is located south of the Barrier Islands. It's
(23:50):
about eighty miles offshore of Mississippi before the canyon drop off.
We have a deep sea coral reef called Mountaintop bank Reef.
And was out doing some exploration, just bathymetry, looking at things,
and they accidentally stumbled upon this coral reef that we
have off of our you know, off of our mainland,
(24:11):
and it's incredible. It's a mountain that extends up it's
about two hundred feet below the water surface and it
goes down about four hundred feet, but it is a
literal mountain and we have coral growing on it, and
it's something that I'm very very inspired to want to
go take a closer look at.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
So you're saying usm figured out that was there, Yes,
when did that happen?
Speaker 3 (24:33):
And I think it was like twenty nineteen, it's really recent, Okay,
So that affirms what I was thinking is it's like
I hear prepping for this episode and like just kind
of getting curious about the ocean and marine.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
All that stuff, and all I heard from several different
resources and different individual researchers and biologists they're like, man,
there's just so much we don't know so much. So
you're talking about within our own you know, like like
basically in our backyard there.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
Is an entire an entire coral reef.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
And mountain that we that we just found in twenty nineteen.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
That we just found. Yep.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Yeah, it's incredible. It's incredible.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
I'm gonna ask it might be a silly question, like
other than other than like the physical barrier of like
it's it's a lot easier for us to go find
a terrestrial mountain or you know, observe something on land,
Like is there any more outlying reasons why we don't
know as much about this kind of stuff or why
it's there's stuff like that still undiscovered.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
You know, I think we the Gulf has received a
lot of interests for what we can extract from it,
so from the you know, extracting oil, natural gas, things
like that, and so there's been quite a lot of
studies to understand the underlying my imagery of the golf
(26:02):
and the depths, and so we actually have a lot
of good baseline data, but it is just very much
it's this depth, it's this type of you know, of structure.
It's something that would be good you know, to drill
or not good to drill. Aside from that, these more
biology ecology things have not received the same attention. And
(26:25):
so this particular coral reef had gone unknown simply because
no one had ever actually looked. They had done this
on our scans, they had understood that this is something
that was there, but until USM went down with an
r o V. An r o V is a remote
operated vehicle, a super fancy term for basically a robot
(26:48):
that goes down with a camera. That's when they got
visual eyes on it. And so one of my grants,
my more recent grants, is I've actually applied to get
myself an ro O v that I can take out,
because sometimes you just need to put eyeballs on things. Yeah,
and that's exactly what it was. It was something as
simple as let's just go look at that, and they did,
(27:10):
and sure enough, Wow, we have this. It's an incredible
ecosystem right there. The few corals that they were able
to identify are more of the deep sea coral, which
is something that's even more unknown than when we think
of these tropical reefs. So there's there's new species that
will ultimately be discovered if someone goes in looks this
(27:32):
is you know, it's it's very pristine habitat. But at
the same time, they as they were traveling over in
some of the documentation that they shared on the with
the media, there was some some marine debris laying on
this this reef, and so of course, you know, we
can't we can't escape that.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
I don't believe.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
But this is why we need to study these things.
This is now is the time to go down there
and figure out you know, let let's understand its role.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
There's a researcher over.
Speaker 3 (28:04):
In Alabama who coined the mobile tint All Delta as
America's Amazon Mississippi Louisiana and Alabama.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
We have so much river influence.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
We are literally America's Amazon right here because we have
such incredible biodiversity, and it's something that that term. Coining
that term really helps people grasp the sheer amazingness that
this is. We are America's Amazon, and this is important.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
I want us to think back a few episodes when
we were talking with the black bear biologist Anthony Ballard
about some of the controversies surrounding the black bear recovery
in Mississippi. He said, in so many words, that we
as humans have a habit of looking at wildlife in
terms of what can.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
It do for me?
Speaker 1 (28:54):
And let me be clear, I'm not here at all
to try and demonize humans using natural resource. For one,
that would be super hypocritical of me. And two, we
need our natural resources for a long list of reasons.
I'm simply saying that we don't just do that with wildlife.
We do that with our land and our water as well.
(29:14):
And evidence would heavily suggest that we sometimes can think
about that way too acutely, too narrowly, so narrowly that
we sometimes don't think about the down the road consequences.
A perfect example of this would be the prior mentioned
man made beaches of Mississippi. The land wasn't serving us
the way that we wanted it to, so we physically
(29:36):
constructed a beach, and in doing so, we ripped out
the estuaries, and that decision affects the overall quality of
the Mississippi Sound and the Gulf to this very day.
And now doctor Morocco was telling us that much of
the reason that there is still so much unknown in
this area is that we haven't looked into it and
studied it much beyond reasons that would serve us. What
(29:59):
can we extract from it? And again, just to emphasize,
I am not proposing that we shouldn't extract things that
we need. I'm simply saying, maybe we should consider getting
more of a big picture view of this entire ecosystem,
how it operates, and the role it plays. Doing this
would allow us to make much more informed decisions and
(30:21):
how we can still get what natural resources we need
without ruining something vital in the process. Y'all know the
old saying, don't throw out the baby with the gulf
water or something like that.
Speaker 3 (30:36):
Kudos to the occasional scientist who has tried to bring
attention to these things, and our federal partners, Noah the
Great Keith Mullen worked for Noah for many years and
he's been out there, you know, publishing papers and working
hard and trying to you know, explain these things. But
outside of that, we have not had the capacity in Louisiana, Misissippi,
(31:00):
Alabama to conduct these studies. And it's all mostly because
most people don't even know it's there. And so one
of the things that I'm trying to do here at
Mississippi State is say, these things are there, and we
need to take ownership of it, and we need to
build that capacity so that we can study it.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
We we have all this there, we have all these
we have all this diversity, we have all these different
marine mammals. We haven't even talked about dolphin. Yeah, why
why like why do we need to take ownership of it?
Speaker 4 (31:33):
You know?
Speaker 3 (31:34):
We we definitely place value, you know, in Mississippi own
on those things that we can hunt, our fish, which
is very important and I and I get it. And
outside of the things that you can hunt and fish,
sometimes they don't get as much attention. And that is
the question, Well, what is it going to do for me.
(31:55):
And so my program is called Coastal One Health and
what I am doing is utilizing these marine mammals as
the canary and the coal mine, and by studying them
and understanding their health and how well they're doing, they
are telling us how how well the environment is doing.
And by studying it, we can not only help ourselves
(32:18):
and the health of humans, but we can use that
to understand the health of our environment. And is there
something that we can do to improve? Are there, you know,
things that we can do to to help these animals
do better? So ultimately that will help us.
Speaker 1 (32:34):
Yeah, how I mean, what's the the state of the
the Gulf the Mississippi sound like?
Speaker 4 (32:42):
Are are we healthy?
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Are we do we need?
Speaker 4 (32:45):
Are we not healthy?
Speaker 3 (32:47):
Where are we at?
Speaker 4 (32:48):
Well?
Speaker 3 (32:48):
Unfortunately, there's not a simple answer for that.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
We are.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
Facing numerous challenges. You know, the oil spill didn't do
us any favors.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
I wouldn't imagine, so.
Speaker 3 (33:03):
So, you know, as horrible as the oil spill was,
that really launched a effort for these southern states to
take a look at the biology and the health of
the environment. And I can honestly say before the oil spill,
there was not nearly as much opportunity to study these things.
(33:23):
And so since then we realize that we are dealing
with aftermath of oil spill, but we're also gaining a
better understanding of what all this river runoff is doing
into the gulf, and so a lot of this runoff
is going to have human, you know, negative human effects.
(33:44):
These are things that once we understand exactly what is
coming into our water, be it pollutants, agricultural runoff, antibiotics,
bacterial pathogens, then we can go to that source and say,
is there a way that we can reduce this amount
(34:07):
of runoff going into our golf? And I see us
right now in that position. We are in the still
data gathering position, still trying to understand the big picture
of what's happening. And so once we want, you know,
keep supporting these researchers, keep supporting these you know, the
folks that are down here working hard, and then we'll
(34:28):
be able to come up with some solutions. We can
all coexist. It's it's going to you know, we have
an amazing, amazing place down here for fishermen, be it
commercial or recreational. We have you know, incredible habitat. We
have all of these dolphins. We can all we can
all survive together, we can all do well together. And
(34:48):
so that's where I really appreciate the fishermen. And then
I also am very appreciative of our commercial shrimpers, particularly
that especially are you know, artisanal, These these local shrimpers
who are working so hard to make a living and
you know, shrimping for this fresh golf shrimp, you know,
(35:10):
highly supportive of them. But what's fascinating to me is
we have dolphins, our dolphins that live out in the sound.
Generation after generation have been have been chasing shrimp boats.
These these mama dolphins are not dumb. They they teach
their young how to safely chase the shrimp boat, so
(35:30):
to speak. And I'm very fascinated in that interaction that
these dolphins are benefiting from these shrimpers because of the
bycatch are you know, as they're stirring up the sediment
and fish or moving, these dolphins can take advantage of it.
And so I'm very excited to learn more knowledge about
that and study those interactions, but also show this is
(35:52):
a coexistence.
Speaker 4 (35:53):
Example.
Speaker 3 (35:54):
Some people are like if humans just disappeared, everything would
be fine, okay.
Speaker 4 (35:58):
In nature, sure, you can't think like that. Though.
Speaker 3 (36:00):
You cannot think like that. And I don't like to
think like that. I I you know, we're here. We
we deserve a space and this planet as well. But
we can also take advantage and understand, especially the dolphin
fishing coexistence, to say, all right, what can we learn
about this coexistence?
Speaker 4 (36:22):
You know, situation.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
These dolphins have learned this, and and and these fishermen
know these dolphins. We need more research. It's a big place,
there's there's a room for for more research. And there's
no reason why we can't have our Mississippi kids and
students who have this dream of studying dolphins, Why they
cannot graduate from one of our universities and we can
(36:44):
put them to work studying dolphins in the Sound.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
And just there's just seemingly a lot for us to
figure out, like a whole lot.
Speaker 4 (36:52):
There's so so so much.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
If I were to say, you know, look into the future,
strip away all worry and just leave me with optimism. Sure,
what does this program look like? What does the Mississippi
Sound look like? What does the overall health of the
golf look like?
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Sure?
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Yeah? No, what I what I would love to envision
is a little bit of a mindset change, and in
the terrestrial world it's a growing momentum. People are starting
to grasp the concept of native plants yep, and how
native plants serve the health of the environment better than
(37:34):
non native plants, something as simple as that. So you
have a home in a suburb, you have this lawn
that you you have to put pesticides on, you have
to put fertilize your own, you have to use water
on to create this sort of green stamp. You know
that that is considered beautiful still by most people. We
(37:56):
may have to change our mindset where maybe beautiful looks
a little different than what we think. And so where
I take that is with our Gulf coast. We see beautiful,
pristine zen white sand is beautiful, and it is, it
has its beauty, But we're probably going to have to
(38:16):
give nature back a few of those areas to be
able to do its filtering work for us. And when
we look at those areas, there's going to be marsh
grass and there's going to be you know, tidal surges
that are gonna.
Speaker 4 (38:30):
Not always look pretty.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
Areas where we don't just grade it to have these
perfect zen lines where we allow the benthic invertebrates to
do their thing. And so my vision is as we
drive down ninety, we're going to have some of that
beautiful sand, but we're going to also have marsh back diversity,
some diversity, and we're going to have people understanding the.
Speaker 4 (38:54):
Beauty of that biodiversity. How cool is it to.
Speaker 3 (38:57):
Be able to take a walk through a nature marsh,
you know, next to a beach, and see all of
all of the wildlife in it.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
With the understanding that it's supposed to be there.
Speaker 4 (39:08):
It's supposed to be there.
Speaker 3 (39:09):
I believe. I believe that we can. We can we
can utilize the resources humans and we can provide a
healthy environment for these these creatures to survive as well,
and we can all co exist.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
There's a balance to it.
Speaker 3 (39:22):
Absolutely absolutely, It's not all doom and gloom. You know,
it's sometimes it's really difficult and you can go down
some crazy, scary rabbit holes. But I do believe I'm
approaching this from the standpoint of we're all in this together,
and we are smart, and we can all do this together.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Yeah, So you're going at a glass half full.
Speaker 3 (39:39):
Absolutely, absolutely, Otherwise I think I would I'd probably not
be able to do this job.
Speaker 1 (39:53):
I want to thank all of you for listening to
Backwoods University as well as Bear Grease in this country life.
And I want to give a big shout out out
to Onyx Hunt for making this podcast possible. If you
liked this episode, share it with somebody that you bet
had no idea that we had giant squids swimming around
in North American waters, and stick around because if this
podcast was the Gulf, we've only gone three feet below
(40:15):
the surface. There's a whole lot more on the way.
Host
Clay Newcomb
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