October 13, 2025 • 45 mins
Are Grizzlies Endangered? Should they be delisted? Do they even belong here? Grizzly bears are without a doubt one of the most polarizing species we have in the United States, and since their placement on the endangered species list in 1975 they have been on the forefront of conversations concerning wildlife issues. In this episode of Backwoods University we approach the topic head on with two very different perspectives. The first perspective coming from Casey Anderson, a lifelong outdoorsman, naturalist, award-winning film maker and bear fanatic, and the second perspective coming from Jeremiah Smith, Danielle Oyler, and Kyle Orozco of Montana Fish, Wildlife, and Parks.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Backwoods University, a place where we focus on wildlife,
wild places and the people who dedicate their lives to
conserving both. Big shout out to Onyx Hunt for their
support of this podcast. I'm your host, Lake Pickle. On
this episode, we're going to approach one of the most
controversial subjects in American wildlife today, head on grizzly bears.
(00:23):
Are they endangered or not? And more importantly, how should
they fit into the modern landscape? Do we need them here?
Point in blank? Do grizzly bears deserve to be a
part of our ecosystem? Let's dive in. Last week we
(00:47):
heard a conversation with one of the most fascinating humans
I have ever met, Tom Parker's stories and insight Bear
Charge and All were not only fun to listen to,
but they also cue us up perfectly for a bigger
conversation for grizzlies as a whole. We know that grizzly
bears as a species were listed as endangered in nineteen
seventy five. We know that, at least in the Bob
(01:08):
Marshall Wilderness and Mission Mountain area, that both grizzly bears
and black bears faced an ecological shift by the loss
of high elevation white bark pine habitat. And we know
definitively that these days, when grizzly bears come up as
a topic in conversation, new publications, or virtually anywhere else,
it most often comes up with a lot of differing
(01:31):
and often strong and impassioned opinions, opinions such as grizzly
should be delisted from the endangered species list, grizzly should
remain on the endangered species list, grizzly should be managed
as a game animal with a hunting season, or under
no form or fashion should a grizzly bear ever be hunted.
Like I said, there are a lot of thoughts out there,
(01:53):
and to do this subject justice and to be able
to cover it thoroughly, we have quite the spread of
guests to hear from. But first I want to start
this whole thing off by giving you two grizzly encounter
stories from the same person. I think the contrast between
these two stories gives us a glimpse of how complex
this subject can be. And let me be clear here,
my goal is not to sway you one way or
(02:15):
the other or tell you how to think y'all don't
need my help with that. I'm here to present the facts.
Y'all make your decisions from there. Here's grizzly encounter number one.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I can remember the very first time I saw grizzly bear.
It was just that quintessential early September elk hunting. I
was with my dad. I couldn't hunt yet. I was
just falling along elk or Bugo, and it was foggy.
We're in thick logical timber on this north facing bench,
and we knew there was going to be bulls in there,
and we can hear him bugle when we come over
(02:46):
this little rise, and right on this big log was
the grizzly bear is tearing it up, beating hands right.
And I just remember the way my dad reacted was
a way that I'd never seen him react. And as
a father, now I understand completely. And now it's one
thing to walk around with encounter of a goodly bear
when you're with your little kid, you know there's a
little more at stake there.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
And he just went.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Silent and held really still, and so I just did
the same, just mimicked because when we sat there and
just watched this bear who had no idea.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Were there probably.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
For half an hour as it just went down and
ripping these logs up and eat nance. And I just
remember how beautiful it was and how it was so strong,
you know, just way was moving these logs and ripping
them apart, and there was just something about it, and
it just I remember that made a huge.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Imprint on me. It's this idea like even when you see.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Like a mountain lion or something like, wow, this thing's
out here with me, right, because he don't see him
officially back then, he didn't see him very often. Uh,
And it was just this you were just a at awe, right,
and at some level, I think barb the instinct you're
just like, don't squeak, don't run, you know.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
So it's still yeah, and it was just this awe thing.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
And it's just after you have a moment like that
and then you walk away with it, it's like those
great hunt it right, and you walk away, you tell
the story like forty thousand times and you just every's
so jacked up and like happy and high five and
and that story doesn't end for like four days. Yeah,
And that's how it was with my dad. So it
was it just imprinted in me so much, and it
was just like that animal created that that moment, and
(04:16):
so then I was just as a kid, I was
like I wanted.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
More of that.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
And here is grizzly encounter number two.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
And then there's one time. And again I think it's
important to tell the story because it's the truth of
a bear's capability. I had a bear look at me
in a way that I'd never been looked at before.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
And this was in Yellowstone, actually, yeah, it was this
time of year.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
So we were going out to the very beginning of
elk calving season. So elk start calvin. It's right now,
May what fifteenth, So they start calviing like the next.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Week or two.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Sure, and the bears love e elk calves.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
I mean, that's just it.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
And some of them are very good at it. You know,
some bear some grizzlies on the el caves at all.
But if you're an elk calf eater and you know
that food sources out there, they'll go look for them.
So we were going to an area where I knew
that there was gonna bears looking for all calves and
we're gonna film it. So we go out there and
it was just this big open stage brush and there
(05:13):
was a bunch of cows out feeding elk, and so
he knew there was calves stashed in the sagebrush. And
so what you look for is when a bear's in
a hunting mode and their behavior, their body language has changed.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
A little bit more.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
You know, bears kind of usually kind of wander and
they're kind of slow, but when they're looking for something
to eat, that's like in predator mode, they kind of
have a little bit more of a heightened step of
quickness to them, and they start to do this thing
like a bird dog when you take a bird dog out.
They just started to zig zagon, just trying to flush.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
That's what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
They're just trying to flush the calves. Because they can't
smell them, they just try to bump them and then
if they get up or they'd make noise or move, they.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Just nail them.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
So we're sitting there watching this bear coming in. I'm like, yes,
it's perfect, I know there's calves. Here's a bear coming in,
and all of a sudden it just stops and looks
towards us and starts walking on a straight line, but
with that same kind.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Of heightened behavior.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
And I'll never forget because I always paying attention to
the wind. The wind is blowing in my face, like
fifteen twenty miles an hour, so I'm like, this bear
can't smell us, so we're just gonna hold still. Well
this it keeps coming and coming. I just think it's
behavior is weird. It's kind of looking like it's looking
at us right. So I stand up and I'm like, okay,
I don't like the way this bears look.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
I'm gonna just let it know. I'm a person.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Sometimes I just don't know what you are if your
holding still right. So I just go up and I
just like wave my arm, like come over here, bear,
And as soon as I do that, it just starts
jogging like faster, and I'm like.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Oh, this ain't good. So then I want to thing
I happen to me.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
The bear spray and I have a thirty mile an
hour wind in my face or twenty mile an hour
wind in my face.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Now that this is not good.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
So I just I remember getting up on me, didn't
hear me?
Speaker 3 (06:49):
And I go bear, I'm ready here, bear, And.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
I'm waving my arms and kind of doing jumping jacks,
and he just starts scoring and ears are forward like
locked in like a cat chasing the mount, and it's
closing the gap. And I remember I was just with
one camera guy, and I just remember thinking, I'm gonna
reach down grab my backpack.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
I'm gonna throw the backpack at this.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Bear, and then if it hesitates from that backpacks in
front of it, I'm gonna try to like get off
to the side of it and like do some like
army roll and bear sprays. So when I picked up
my backpack over my head, it was probably ten yards
and it just as soon as I go like this,
it just locks, it breaks up, just screeches. So I
see this change of behavior, right, and I just hold
(07:33):
that backpack over my head and I just hold still,
and it sits there.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
And just.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Just growls and just this big deep guttural move moaning,
and it does these like little flinch like kind of
like flinches towards us to try to get.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Us to move. And I just didn't say anything.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I just literally held the backpack like this over my head,
and just as it started to kind of half circle
walk around, just kind of mirrored it like a like
a like a great dish, right, And I don't know
what happened, man, it did this pride for twenty seconds,
thirty seconds, but it felt like forever.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
And then it got to the side of us in
the wind.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I think it probably got a little bit of a
whiff of us, growled and moaned a us a bunch more,
and then it just walked away really slow. And when
I looked at this bear up close, emaciated hip bones
are sticking out.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I looked in its mouth.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
It was gap mouth, and it was all salivating, and
it was all foamy around its mouth. Its teeth were flat.
This is a big, old male, old desperate and I
know just the way that bear looked at us that
it considered us as food in that moment. I think
it's such a I mean, it's lightning striking twice kind
of odds, but desperation, man, any animal us even right, yeah,
(08:51):
probably would never have crossed that line. But it was
at that point in its life where it probably was
in the den all winter star went out there was
trying to catch all calves, couldn't catch any. And then
they just two two hundred pound dudes standing over there,
and thought, hmmm, they look like I got to eat right,
so I'll die, and it just it decided. But then
I don't know, maybe I became six foot five with
this weird hat on my head and didn't run, didn't
(09:14):
make any did anything wrong, and just sold my ground
And that was just enough to make it decide not
to cross the line that day. But I didn't sleep
for like three nights after that. It shook me so hard.
I mean again, at that point, even thousands of encounters,
but never one like that. And it's just one of
those things where you're like, this is the reality is
these bears are capable of doing this, no doubt, right,
(09:36):
And if you let your guard down and you act
like they're big, fuzzy, teddy bears, that's how you're gonna
get hurt. It's going out there understanding what they're capable of,
understanding what they really are, and and then being ready
for it.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
You know.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Yeah, It's just that's what you gotta do.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Two encounters with grizzlies with the same person, but two
very different experiences. The person you hurt tall talking there
was a man named Casey Anderson. Casey's a lifelong outdoorsman,
a naturalist, a hunter, and a person who has spent
his career explaining nature to the world, which included some
appearances on Oprah and Conan. By the way, some wild stuff.
(10:16):
We'll also be hearing from some representatives from Montana Department
of Fish, Wildlife and Parks.
Speaker 5 (10:21):
Danielle Euler, I'm the Wildlife Stewardship Outreach specialist at Montana Fish,
Wildlife and Parks. I work throughout the entire state.
Speaker 6 (10:29):
Kyle Roscoe, I'm with Montana Fishwife and Parks Bear Management.
I'm a technician with those guys out of Region three
here in Bozeman. Jeremiah Smith, I'm the grizzly bear specialist
FIR Region three in Southwest Montana, and I work for
Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Between all the different perspectives that we have represented here,
covering everything from experiences of a modern out doorsman, wildlife conflict,
and wildlife biology. I firmly believe that during this podcast
will be like a hungry bear flipping rocks over and
search for food and leave no stone unturned. Let's dive
in first by getting a basic grasp on grizzly bear
(11:04):
biology and ecology. This is important having a better understanding
of the animal in question will allow us to form
much more informed opinions.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
First kind of cool thing to think about grizzly bears
is like the landscape that shaped them, just like with
black bears. You know, grizzly bears are animals of open landscapes,
not exclusively so, but you know, prairies, tundra, meadows, places
where they can dig for food in a grass dominated
landscape with cover. Their utilizing all their habitat. So that's
(11:36):
a defining feature. And we think that part of why
they are reactive to encounters, why they act a little
bit different than black bears, is that being an animal
of open lands, when they're you know, encountering a threat,
their instinct is to stand their ground and protect themselves
or act aggressively. So I think that's the why grizzlies
have the reputation that they do. So it's a little
bit of their evolutionary history, right. And then as far
(12:01):
as they're yearly cycles, so they're coming out of hibernation
in March, April and May, they're awake all the way
into the fall. The beginning of the season is kind
of a slow progression of bears coming out of their den.
Then they're looking for food anywhere it's available, high up
in the mountains or down low. The biggest limiting factor
there being snow, so once our snowpack is melted off,
(12:22):
they could be high or they could be down low.
And then breeding season is Midsummer. Then later into the
fall they go into hyperphasia, so that's like late August
to the time they hibernate and they're eating as much
as they can to get ready for winter, and that's
when we see a spike in human bear conflicts because
bears that are getting ready for winter eating as much
(12:42):
as they can, they're not as aware of their surroundings,
so it's just pretty easy to surprise them. One study
showed that they consumed up to twenty thousand calories a
day at the peak of hyperphasia. So that's not the
entire time, but you can imagine a wild animal looking
for that amount of food. How easy that would be
because I like forging, hunting all that, and I like
(13:03):
knowing my plants, and I try to think about going
in the woods and like getting that much for calories
in a day, and it would be it might take
me a lot longer than a day to find that
much food, so it's easy to surprise them that way.
And then all of us here bowhunters in this group,
so I have no shade on bow hunting. But bow
hunting is risky in bear country because you're quiet, you're
(13:24):
sneaking around the time of year when they're easy to surprise,
and you put your in kind of the same areas
as the grizzly bears are, and then they're going into
the den end of November, beginning of December, so that's
a little bit of a rundown on their yearly cycles.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Gris habitat selection and yearly cycles essential info for forming
opinions and making decisions on a species. Now let's learn
about their size and what they eat.
Speaker 6 (13:48):
I'm glad you brought this up because it's a myth.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
That's a good point.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
Ye, it's the reason great topic.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah, because you'll hear like, oh, that bears stood fifteen
foot tall.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
That's eight hundred pounder for sure.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (14:00):
Yeah, no, everyone thinks we have these eight hundred thousand
pound bears. Jeremiah and I we handled two adult male
grizzlies this week. One was four hundred the other was
four to sixty. And that's a great average size. Granted
they're coming out of the den, but a lot of
our bears haven't lost a ton of weight, you know,
right when they come out of that den. So four
or five hundred, it's not an uncommon size for an
adult male. Grizz and his prime females are that two
(14:23):
to three hundred, I mean two fifty. That's a good
average sized female.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
And there's a fall weight, and there's there's a spring weight, right,
so they're going to gain calories as they go through.
Speaker 6 (14:32):
So yeah, I think the record of out of all
you know, over a thousand bears we've caught down here
in the gritty Yellowstone ecosystems, just over seven hundred pounds.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Really, I'll tell you what, which you'll hear at home, right.
I won't say here it all the time, but I
have heard it. I mean, like it does make sense. Right,
the further you get away from grizzlies, the higher of
the misunderstanding to get. But they're like they got a
thousand pound bears out there. I don't think they do.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Alaska, Yeah, not down here, but Alaska, we don't have
the cow down here.
Speaker 6 (15:00):
I mean, it's a tough place to make a living.
For these bears. They eat over two hundred and sixty
different things down here to make a living.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
You know, really, from the day they get up to
the day they go to bed, there's on average about
two hundred and sixty different species between plants, animals, you
name it, that they kind of move through. They're an
opportunistic omnivore and that's why they're still walking the planet.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Okay, we've heard bear encounter and charge stories from Casey.
We've heard grizzly ecology and biology from Danielle, Kyle and Jeremiah,
which leads me to believe that we're ready to dive
into more thought provoking questions such as how should we
manage grizzly bears today and how should we shape our
human attitude towards them.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I grew up in Montana, so since I could walk,
I've been in grizzly bear country. I mean almost every
day for thirty thirty five years, I've been out in
grizzly country, or some facet of that. I've spent I
mean an imaginable amount of time. I've had thousands, no exaggeration,
grizzly bear encounters. I've spent a good part of my
life sneaking up and trying to film grizzly bears doing
(16:03):
the opposite of what people should be doing. So I
fast tracked to trying to understand them. And then on
top of that, when I was twenty five, I.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Decided I was going to raise a grizzly bear. Yeah,
I saw that.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
So, you know, I've had this like crazy kind of
grizzly saturated kind of life, you know. So I've seen
all sides, you know, and I like to put it
in perspective. I mean, I've raised the grizzly bear. I've
wrestled with the grizzly bear. I've been charged by grizzly
bears in the wild, and I've carried a man's body
off the mountain.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
That's been killed by a grizzly bear.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
I've seen the whole spectrum. They're all a product of
their environment and how they've been raised, and how they
experienced the earth, and their time on Earth and their experiences,
and I mean, I know, you know, and it's a
big issue right now. When you're making management decisions based
on fear or emotion, they're not making good decisions. And
(16:57):
I worry about that with with grizzly bears a little bit,
and I think that you see, you can see the
result of that. I mean a lot of times it's
like and people are like, why do we need them around?
Speaker 3 (17:06):
You know, that's what you get that all the time.
It's like, why are we even worried about them?
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Why are we trying to keep them here?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:13):
And so my question was having the understanding and kind
of like the value system that I have from so
much time hunting. I want grizzlies around, But how do
you explain to somebody like, this is why we need
them here? How do you get that across?
Speaker 3 (17:26):
It's a tough one.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
I mean, it's a question I asked myself all the time.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
I mean, do we need them here?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
You tell me?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I mean I think that if we decide that we're
going to weed out everything that makes us uncomfortable in
the wild in the wilderness, we're going to kill exactly
what the wilderness is. And there's something to be said
about a grizzly bear being out there. When you walk
around here in Montana, in grizzlebear country, you feel it, right,
It's a feeling you don't feel probably in Mississippi it's
(17:54):
a feeling you don't feel a lot of other places,
and there's something about that. There's a value in that
that's you can't replace it. And you know, you know,
there's all the you know, you hear all the rhetoric
and things that people say about you know, they're a
keystone species. There a specie that indicates a healthy ecosystem.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
That's true, I think.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
At some level. But again it's like what does that mean?
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, it's a big it's a big broad term that
sounds nice, What does it mean?
Speaker 3 (18:20):
What does it mean?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
And I do think that you know, if a grizzly
bears living there, it does indicate that you're in a
place that is healthy. And I think ultimately, no matter
why you want that resource to remain intact, to have
that indication is a wonderful thing because a healthy ecosystem
is something that everybody, no matter how you use it,
is important. And if that requires it you have to
(18:41):
carry bear spray or a handgun, learn how to.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Use both your tools.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
That requires doing different things with your food sources. If
that requires us having that outdoor knowledge to keep these
places alive, I think it's a it's something worth having
and we're doing Casey gave us a lot.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
To think about there, And if you're and you did
hear him correctly when he said that he decided to
raise a grizzly bear when he was twenty five years old.
This action is one of the many things that landed
him on shows like Oprah. Like I mentioned earlier, this
guy has lived an interesting life to say the least.
But here's the main thing that I think we should
focus on from that last piece, and just say, y'all
(19:20):
can't say I didn't give you a fair warning. I'm
going to ask some hard and thought provoking questions. Here
you're ready, Here we go. Do we need grizzly bears?
I mean, really think about it. Do we need grizzly bears?
And allow me to challenge us further in saying, when
you think about your answer, don't think about it in
terms of addressing an audience of folks that already understand
(19:43):
hunting for the life of an outdoorsman, think about having
to answer that to a much broader audience because in
disclaimer this part, here's my opinion, but I feel like
we almost have to think that way, especially when you're
discussing an animal that finds its way into mainstream conversations
as much as grizzlies do. Why do we need grizzlies?
(20:03):
Why should grizzly bears be listed or delisted on an
endangered species list? Should grizzly bears be hunted or should
they not be hunted? There are folks out there that
never want to see grizzlies removed from the endangered species list.
There's folks out there that think grizzlies should be removed
and should be managed like a game animal with the
regular hunting season. There's folks that think we should be
(20:24):
able to shoot any bear that we see on site,
regardless of the situation. And there's folks that think grizzlies
are warm and fuzzy and would never harm you, so
we should never harm them. Like I said, there's a
wide spectrum of opinions out there. So do you have
an answer? Think about it. Let's focus in on the facts,
(20:49):
because in my experience, when honing in on topics of
high opinion, relying on facts is most important.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
The way our programs are designed is to try to
dispel a lot of the miss about grizzly bears and
concentrate on the facts. About grizzly bears. What we know
through science, biology, experience, our eyes, what we see, what
we do, how we deal with them, where we see them,
and how they interact on the landscape, whether it's on
public land, private land, in the wilderness or you know,
(21:17):
mixed up amongst you know, houses and stuff like Big
scy or even the outskirts of Bozeman. Right, So there's
a lot of angles there. But I think most people,
even if there is some misunderstanding of grizzly bears, if
they're interested, they'll go out and they'll try to learn that.
And I think this the best folks can do. Things
are changing, they're adapting to their landscape, just like we're
adapting to ours, and so just getting that information out
(21:39):
to folks, and we're an open book. I mean, you know,
folks call us and ask us all sorts of questions,
not just from a reactionary standpoint and due to conflicts,
but also proactive things that we can do moving forward.
And so you know, they're a wild animal. At the
end of the day, they're dangerous and unpredictable. There's no
denying that. And a grizzly bear and a black bear
(21:59):
can rear change anything anytime if it chose to do so. Fortunately,
most of the time we don't see that. But there
are encounters that happen. There are bad events that happen,
and those things are what I think make the news,
that's what you hear about all the time. And so
our job is to sort those instances out, but also
(22:19):
keep on analyzing why did this happen. On average, we
handle around one hundred to one hundred and fifty conflicts
a year. That's nowhere even close to probably what's actually happening. Right,
it's only if you call us and talk to us
that we can catalog these conflicts and try to figure
them out and work on them. So again, Kyle and
MAI's job essentially is conflict specialists when it comes to
(22:42):
grizzly bears and black bears, mainly grizzly bears, and so
in Montana, in the Yellowstone ecosystem, we have a high
density of grizzly bears that's recovered. It's a great growing population.
We've got a lot of folks that are here. That
population is increasing, and so the interaction between people and
bears is happening, and it'll probably happen a little more
(23:02):
often than it did twenty or thirty years ago. You know,
my predecessor, Kevin Frye, was a grizzly bear specialist here
for thirty years, and I worked with him for fifteen
of those years. And even in the fifteen years I
worked with him, I saw a significant change in southwest
Montana as far as not only the number of people
that live here and build here and move here, but
the number of bears that are here and their density
(23:25):
in one particular spot, and the expansion and increased distribution
of those bears. Right, it's a natural thing. And so
our jobs are not only reactively responding to conflicts between
people and bears, but also proactively getting out ahead of
that and trying to prevent conflicts from happening in the
(23:45):
first place. And and Danielle's role in that is massive
because back in the day, you know, me and Kevin,
I kind of did everything, and when before I worked
for him, he did it all by himself for the
most part, And as that bear popular grew and the
human population grew, he didn't have time or we didn't
have time to go run over and do all these
(24:06):
things we really wanted to do. As far as preventative
measures for bears because we're reacting to conflicts. And so
fast forward to now, and we've got this great education
program that's huge. We've got me and Kyle being able
to work with our warden staff and our biologists staff
to handle both black bears and grizzly bear conflicts and
(24:26):
turn it into kind of one large program that can
adapt not only locally, but regionally on the fly and
then in between regions. You know, Southwest Montana is an
interesting spot for grizzly bears because we back up against
Yellowstone National Park Idaho, Wyoming. We all work together because
bears don't know borders or boundaries, and so we all
(24:48):
know each other.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
We talk all the time.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
We've worked with each other over the years, and so
it's a very interactive group of people that are dealing
with and handling conflicts and trying to proactively prove vent
them long term with a growing population of bears and people.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Allow me to further contextualize some of what Jeremiah just
shared with us. In nineteen seventy five, the year that
grizzly bears were listed as endangered, the state of Montana
had a recorded human population of seven hundred and forty
eight thousand, two hundred and eight. Idaho had eight hundred
and thirty one thousand, nine hundred and eighty two, Wyoming
(25:26):
three hundred and eighty one thousand, six hundred and ninety five.
Fast forward to twenty twenty four, the recorded population of
Montana is now over one point one million, Idaho right
at two million, and Wyoming right over half a million.
That's a significant population increase of humans, which in turn
means more humans on the landscape, more housing, more humans
(25:49):
spreading into areas where they previously were not. Pair that
with the recovering and growing bear population, and you were
met with the unavoidable reality that humans and bears are
simply going to cross paths more often.
Speaker 6 (26:05):
No, there's definitely a lot of people that have figured out, like,
if we're going to be here, they're here, we're going
to have to tolerate each other. And a lot of
folks are great, you know, they understand that the bears
just trying to make a living, same as them, and
if you don't work side by side and kind of
have that tolerance for one another, it's not going to
work in the long run.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
Oh, I was just going to say, there was a
human dimension study, a social science study on people's attitudes
about grizzly bearries in Montana. I don't know four years
ago or so, and what the common thread was is
like most people, it was like over ninety six percent
I think valued grizzly bears as a part of Montana's
natural heritage. Where you started to see differences is like
(26:46):
what people's tolerance were for how where they lived and
how close they lived to their homes. So some folks
have a really high tolerance. They're fine with grizzly bears
fairly close, but pretty much nobody wants them in their backyard.
You know, whether you love grizzly bears are you're pretty
skeptical and you're not. You don't want them anywhere near you.
Nobody's really interested in having them really really close to
their home. But overall, Montanas appreciate that that grizzly bears
(27:11):
live here.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
I'll be completely honest with y'all. In the studies and
research I've done so far for this podcast, I have
yet to find an animal or even a topic that
brings about more nuance than a grizzly bear. Danielle said
it best by referencing the study that showed over ninety
six percent of people in Montana valuing grizzlies as part
of the Montana heritage. But where you start to see
(27:34):
variances is when you get into people's tolerances for them.
So in Layman's terms, people are thinking, so, where are
these bears exactly? And how close are they to my house?
So to speak? And as I stated earlier, the human
population in these grizzly areas only seems to be going up.
So at some point it's inevitable that we as humans
(27:55):
are going to have to make some decisions.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
And it's a funny time, especially over in this neck
the woods here in Yellowstone Country in Montana, Idaho Wyoming,
where we're on the cusp of what are we going
to do next with grizzly bears? Right, And a lot
of people would expect that I would be like anti
hunting grizzly bears, but I'm not.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
I mean, I'm a hunter.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I understand the importance of managing animals, and no matter
what they are on a landscape, we need to it's
the only way that they're going to be around for
a long term. But I also hear from a lot
of hunters that the reason why they shouldn't we should
be hunting grizzly bears is because I see them all
the time when I'm out hunting. They're everywhere. They're losing
their fear of people. Is that a reason to hunt them?
(28:37):
We did that with all the other animals. Is that
the reason to hunt them, or or should we hunt
them because their population is getting too high and for
this ecosystem and a bunch of biologists has actually come
up with the data to say that's the case. Maybe
that's that's the reason we should hunt them, not because
we're afraid of them.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
And it's okay if you can be afraid.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Of something to understand, then I think that that's the
part we have to understand them. And the thing is, man,
I'll tell you it's a lot of people aren listen
to this and think that this guy's crazy why we're
listening to him. But I'm here to tell you you know,
I'm not against hunting grizzly bears, not at all. Again,
And I think that's really important, and I think it's
really important for us to understand animals that were out
there in the woods with no matter what they are right.
(29:16):
And I think in that understanding we can make better
management decisions. Yeah, and I think that's just the bottom line, man.
We can't manage animals based on fear. We have to
base our animal management practices on facts.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Interesting take and insight from a man like Casey Anderson.
I appreciate both the thoroughness of his answer as well
as his willingness to share with us outright his thoughts
on such a controversial topic. And I want to hear
more from him on this, but first I want to
be sure to let the biologists from MFWP way in
on this subject as well.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
At the end of the day, for the most part,
grizzly bears required large chunks of dirt without people in it.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Right.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
So the original idea when they listed grizzly bears you
hear about all these recovery zones is that they sought
these areas like Yellowstone National Park and a surrounding area
they called a recovery zone, that we would recover bears
in these areas because there's large, contentious pieces of public
land that don't have people in it. Right. People visit,
(30:17):
people move through, but they actually have fairly untapped, untouched
forest or wilderness or different type of land use classifications
you want to have. And I don't think what anybody
thought backed in was that those bears would start to
expand so far out like they assumed.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
I think that the.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Idea of the recovery when it met the original recovery criteria,
that the bear would be delisted and they'd be managed
just like every other game species in Montana. And that
time frame has been pushed along over time. And so
that's a lot of arguments you hear in the news
and everything else about grizzly bears is delist them, don't
delist them. All that well, we stay underneath of that
(30:55):
because we our role in grizzly bear management doesn't matter
whether they're on or off the list.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Right, your job doesn't change.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
We're still dealing with conflicts no matter what.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
Now. As an agency and as bear specialist, I truly believe, Yeah,
I think grizzly bear should be delisted. Absolutely. The numbers
are there, they're recovered, they've done a great job. We've
got good secure habitat, we've got great rules and regulations,
regulatory mechanisms they are put in place, and yes, those
things could be changed here and there, for sure, there's
no arguing that. But to keep something on a list
(31:28):
for that long, I mean, it's a goofy fact. And
these guys probably get sick of me saying it, But
I was born in nineteen seventy five. These things have
been on the list as long as I've been alive.
Fifty years is a long time to keep something on
a list, you know. I mean the idea that in
the Endangered Species Act is to recover and move on
to something else, and I think that's what a lot
(31:50):
of people get frustrated with. I'm sure, I think they
really do. And you know, these areas where like you
and Kyle were talking about, Danielle, it's like you can
go into an area and have a mix of people
in Montana and their opinions and their ideas on grizzly bears.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
And that's great because I.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
Think that's the way it should be, because everybody's got
their own experience with them, They've got their own effect
that the bears have on them. You know, if you're
a cattle rancher and you've got a bear coming down
and eating you know, four or five calves every other day,
that's not good. I wouldn't be happy.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
About that either, you know.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
And so our jobs and wildlife services in those particular
instances is to get in there and try to remedy
that situation because there's a lot of bears out there
that aren't causing conflict. Sure, because we manage the population,
we don't manage the individual and that makes a big
difference because that's how wildlife management should be. Singling out
individual animals I think can cause a lot of problems
(32:44):
when it comes to the public's view of how wildlife
is managed.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Do you think there's any like possibility wise if they've
becoming delisted? I know that's an opinion question.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
No, it's a podcast, but my fingers are crossed now.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
I mean, it's it's politics and litigation, and so again
we that's above our level. We kind of stay out
of that. Sure, as far as recovery criteria goes for
the original recovery zones in Montana, they have they have
accomplished that.
Speaker 6 (33:12):
In fact, Yellowstone Day.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
For Yellowstone Cabinet Yack, the Yellowstone ecosystem has literally been
recovered since technically, as far as recovery criteria goes ninety
nine to two thousand and two.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Right in there, checked all the box, checked all the.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
Boxes, n CD.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
I don't think as.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
Far off, but yeah, yeah, and the Cria yaks has
not quite gotten there yet. But these two ecosystems make
up Idaho, Montana and Wyoming and most of Montana. The
cabinet yak is a pretty small component up there, but
just as important. But when you've got a massive recovery
population sitting next door, you know you're gonna have distribution
(33:50):
that's going in and out.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Sure. Like I said at the beginning of this episode,
my role here is not to tell you how to think.
I'm here to present you with facts and what I
learn doing this research in these interviews, and the facts
are that biologists and grizzly bear specialists believe that there's
enough data and evidence to support removing bears from the
endangered species list. I believe this to be a very
(34:14):
important factor. I also think it's important to highlight Jeremiah's
comment about the difference between managing populations rather than managing
individual animals. Virtually all of the successes that North America
has had in terms of wildlife management has come from
an angle of population management, not individual animal management. This
(34:35):
is an important factor that cannot be ignored, regardless of
what species we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
You use the word resource, right, Yeah, that all means
something different to other people. You know, to other people
like Okay, now you're looking at them like a commodity
and they're just an animal on the landscape, and you're
like no, no, egawn, you know, that's a broad word there.
In some level, there's a value there and it's like
a commodity. But sometimes you just got to look at
it some way and get mad about this the idea
(35:01):
that you've used that word, and it's one of those
things that's kind of ridiculous to me because I think ultimately,
if that resource is there, if the bears come back
in Montana and we have the ability to hunt them,
then they're healthy.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Yeah, so it's a good indicator.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, yeah, and that resource no matter what the value
of that resource is, where that means you're gonna go
with your son and opening day and kill one, or
if that means you're gonna go walk out there while
you're sniffing wildflowers and see one, it's a value. It's
a value that we all collectively want on the landscape.
And if we can figure out away from to make
that happen through management, that's what conservation is all about, right,
(35:40):
and everybody can be happy.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Here's some more facts for you autumb Ale over in
regards to wildlife in North America, animals that are hunted
sustainably with regulated and managed hunting seasons are some of
the healthiest wildlife populations throughout the entire country. And there's
a lot of reasons for that, some of which being
habitat protection, restoration, and also the cultural value that we
(36:02):
as humans assigned to them. That's a fact. I want
to ask Jeremiah Smith about his opinion on the future
of grizzly bears and what a potential hunting season could
look like if grizzlies were ever delisted.
Speaker 4 (36:15):
In regards to grizzly bears, I hope we're a delisted population.
I hope we have the state management, which we already do,
to be honest with you, management of grizzly bears since
the day they've been listed. The states are doing the
day to day management and are federal partners. You know Yellowstone,
Grand Teeton, they're managing bears in there as well. The
(36:36):
Fish and Wildlife services role is really where we check
in because it is a delist or a listed population.
In order for us to do a management action, so
to speak, we need to get permission to do that.
And they've always been pretty dang good about working with
us on that because we're on the ground dealing with it.
But moving forward that there's still a I think a
viable population of grizzlies on the landscape that low conflicts
(37:01):
with people. You know, everybody's kind of getting along. I
think what we've accomplished inside the recovery zones with successful recoveries,
but I think that's something to hang a hat on.
I think they've done a great job. Those bears are
going to continue to reproduce and be available out there
for the folks that want to go and check them out,
and you know, maintain a little bit of a buffer
(37:22):
between people and bears. And that means that conflict number
drops and everybody's okay with that.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
What about you know, the idea of grizzlies being delisted?
What about that changes? Like why you're like, man, that
would be great, fingers crossed that happens. What changes like,
what can y'all do with a delisted grizzly that y'all
can't do now.
Speaker 5 (37:43):
I want to hear from you guys too, But it
won't change, like, we will continue to do our jobs,
but it's important that we uphold our end of the
deal with how the Endangered Species Act works. So I
think that's why it's important, and I think it's important
for all the other species that are on the list
for that to continue to function properly.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Gotcha.
Speaker 6 (38:04):
Yeah, And I think it'd go a long way to
help build that tolerance back too. Some folks are just
you know, that have been dealing with a recovered population
for twenty years. Yeah, they're losing faith in the system. Jeremiah,
real quick, can you kind of speak to maybe what
a possible hunting season across the three states would look like,
because I know a ton of folks think that it's
just going to be open season potentially like black bears,
(38:27):
and within a year or two could hunt them back
down to you know, two hundred bears right. Well, I
mean I can't speak to you exactly how that'll look.
So a good example is the Montana is one of
the few states was asked to come up with hunting
regulations for grizzly bears. Okay, Okay, So we put together
a hunting regulation for grizzly bears, which really isn't much
different than our black bear hunting rags other than obviously
(38:49):
we don't have the numbers, and the population is shared
between Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming plus two National parks and
the Wind River Indian Reservation, right, and so the Montana
portion for hunting was literally designed inside the recovery zone
and what they call the demographic monitoring area. So imagine
there's Yellowstone, there's a cocentric circle outside of that, and
(39:09):
then there's another one outside of that. Inside of that
is where we count grizzly bears. Inside of that is
where mortalities count, births count, all of the count. So
everything you hear about the population of grizzly bears and
the Yellowstone ecosystem is inside of that ring.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Gotcha.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
It's not the rest of Montana, the rest of Wyoming,
or the rest of Idaho. It's literally there. So a
thousand bears may not seem like a lot of bears.
That's just inside of that ring. And that's an estimated population,
that's not we know exactly how many are in there
it's typically more than what we think. And so our
hunting program was basically designed as a draw tag, like
(39:46):
a limited and we have each one of these units,
we have mortality limits that we have to follow inside
of that ring, and so based on the population estimate,
based on the estimate, and so you know, let's say
the population estimate was eight hundred on twenty twenty four,
and from twenty twenty four to twenty twenty five, we
have a mortality limit set that X number of bears
(40:09):
can die before it triggers something. So if that mortality
limit isn't met, there's a number in between that mortality
limit and where we got to. Those are the numbers
of bears that would actually potentially have and hunters would
have a chance to potentially hunt, and that number would
be split up between Wyoming, Idaho and southwest Montana. So
(40:30):
the reality is is that if that hunt took place,
you're talking one bear, maybe two or three in Montana
southwest inside the recovery zone in the DMA. Now outside
of that might be a different story. That's where our
commissions come into play and start talking about or do
we have areas that we're starting to see a higher
density grizzly bears that maybe isn't going to work in
(40:52):
an agricultural or a ranch setting or a subdivision setting,
things like that, right. I mean, there's a lot of
aspects to gay Man. So is the hunting season itself,
at least for the Montana portion that we can speak to,
would have been a very it's a very limited hunt
starting out, and it's a quota system most likely in
the early stages. But you know, Montana's arm rule essentially
(41:14):
says we were not going to hunt grizzlies after the delisting,
and that might change our current one says we won't
hunt for five years until, which is kind of a
monitoring period to kind of see how things go right.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
So you wouldn't delist it, get a hunting season go
all right, general grizz tag everyone.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
That's one of those common misunderstandings, Right. So even if
we decided to do that, even if the you know,
the state of Montana said we're gonna hunt grizzlies back
because it was a listed population, there's triggers set in place.
So if Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho decided we're gonna go
out and we're gonna shoot every grizzly bear and bring
it back down. When that number gets down to a
(41:52):
specific spot, let's say it's eight hundred or five hundred,
the triggers kick in and you're right back on the list.
So there's no reason why anyone state would want to
hunt grizzly bears back to the extinction. It just doesn't
make any sense. There's checks and valid and there's lots
of people that would argue that, and that's that's their opinion,
and it's perfectly fine with them if they want to
(42:13):
argue that way.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
I totally understand that.
Speaker 4 (42:15):
But again a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation out there
about what a hunt actually looks like in a state
of Montana, or Wyoming or Idaho for that matter. But
I can only speak to Montana's portion of the Yellowstone ecosystem.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
This is why I find so much value in hearing
from folks like Jeremiah Kyle and Danielle. These folks are
out there every day conducting scientific actions, research and observations
and can give us thorough answers about what an actual
grizzly hunting season could look like. If that day ever comes,
I want to give Casey a chance to weigh on
(42:49):
the future of grizzlies as well.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Try to find the people who are asking questions and
are always trying to learn. They kind of ride the
fence in the middle there, and that's where I said
to you, man, and that's the one thing sitting here.
I might have thirty plus years of experience with grizzly bears,
but I'm learning every day. And as I go out
there and learn, I just like to try to answer
those questions the best I can, and I'm wrong sometimes,
(43:11):
and that's that's just the truth of it. That's kind
of the wonderfulness about being around unpredictable animals in the
in the wild, where it's just kind of an unpredictable
place and it's always changing in the day and age.
I think the future of grizzly bears in North America
is going to be a positive thing. I think some
of those old fearful mindsets are kind of going away
a little bit. I think new the newer generations are.
(43:31):
They're they're believing in science, they're leaning into those things,
and I see what's going to probably happen and what
I kind of hope is going to happen. You know, ultimately,
if the Endangered Species Act was successful and the pairs
recover and they get to a point where they are
an animal that can be hunted, then they could become
the value of them changes a little bit. I think
(43:52):
at some levels, what we want is that population to
get so big.
Speaker 7 (43:54):
That that we can do that that it's a healthy population,
that the resources, financial resources are going to continue to
help the bear expand into places that they can live,
and that the population the bears are going to just
get healthier and healthier.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
That would be the perfect world where everybody wins. Right,
you go out there and you still have grizzly bears
on the landscape. That's the goal. And I think they
were going that diriction. You know, but you knows everything.
The pendulum swings so hard back and forth.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
It's like a wrecking ball, man.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
You know, you gain here and you lose here, and
you gain here and you lose here. But I think
that ultimately it seems like it's going that way, and
I hope that's where it goes.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
So we have the desired outcomes from both Montana Fish
Wildlife and Parks as well as Casey Anderson. I wouldn't
say they're identical but they do share some strong similarities
lining up and delisting a regulated hunting season and wanting
a bright future for grizzlies by way of a healthy
population and minimal conflict with humans. So what do y'all
(44:59):
want for an out? What do you think or hope
the future of grizzly bears in the United States will be?
Have you come up with an answer for if we
need grizzly bears here? And why think about it? I
hope all of you enjoyed this episode of Backwoods University
as well as bear Grease in This Country Life. If
you liked this episode, share it with someone you know
(45:19):
that has strong opinions on grizzly bears, and be sure
to stick around because if this podcast was a bear,
we haven't even come out of the den yet. There's
a whole lot more on the way.
Welcome to Backwoods University, a place where we focus on wildlife,
wild places and the people who dedicate their lives to
conserving both. Big shout out to Onyx Hunt for their
support of this podcast. I'm your host, Lake Pickle. On
this episode, we're going to approach one of the most
controversial subjects in American wildlife today, head on grizzly bears.
(00:23):
Are they endangered or not? And more importantly, how should
they fit into the modern landscape? Do we need them here?
Point in blank? Do grizzly bears deserve to be a
part of our ecosystem? Let's dive in. Last week we
(00:47):
heard a conversation with one of the most fascinating humans
I have ever met, Tom Parker's stories and insight Bear
Charge and All were not only fun to listen to,
but they also cue us up perfectly for a bigger
conversation for grizzlies as a whole. We know that grizzly
bears as a species were listed as endangered in nineteen
seventy five. We know that, at least in the Bob
(01:08):
Marshall Wilderness and Mission Mountain area, that both grizzly bears
and black bears faced an ecological shift by the loss
of high elevation white bark pine habitat. And we know
definitively that these days, when grizzly bears come up as
a topic in conversation, new publications, or virtually anywhere else,
it most often comes up with a lot of differing
(01:31):
and often strong and impassioned opinions, opinions such as grizzly
should be delisted from the endangered species list, grizzly should
remain on the endangered species list, grizzly should be managed
as a game animal with a hunting season, or under
no form or fashion should a grizzly bear ever be hunted.
Like I said, there are a lot of thoughts out there,
(01:53):
and to do this subject justice and to be able
to cover it thoroughly, we have quite the spread of
guests to hear from. But first I want to start
this whole thing off by giving you two grizzly encounter
stories from the same person. I think the contrast between
these two stories gives us a glimpse of how complex
this subject can be. And let me be clear here,
my goal is not to sway you one way or
(02:15):
the other or tell you how to think y'all don't
need my help with that. I'm here to present the facts.
Y'all make your decisions from there. Here's grizzly encounter number one.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
I can remember the very first time I saw grizzly bear.
It was just that quintessential early September elk hunting. I
was with my dad. I couldn't hunt yet. I was
just falling along elk or Bugo, and it was foggy.
We're in thick logical timber on this north facing bench,
and we knew there was going to be bulls in there,
and we can hear him bugle when we come over
(02:46):
this little rise, and right on this big log was
the grizzly bear is tearing it up, beating hands right.
And I just remember the way my dad reacted was
a way that I'd never seen him react. And as
a father, now I understand completely. And now it's one
thing to walk around with encounter of a goodly bear
when you're with your little kid, you know there's a
little more at stake there.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
And he just went.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Silent and held really still, and so I just did
the same, just mimicked because when we sat there and
just watched this bear who had no idea.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Were there probably.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
For half an hour as it just went down and
ripping these logs up and eat nance. And I just
remember how beautiful it was and how it was so strong,
you know, just way was moving these logs and ripping
them apart, and there was just something about it, and
it just I remember that made a huge.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
Imprint on me. It's this idea like even when you see.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Like a mountain lion or something like, wow, this thing's
out here with me, right, because he don't see him
officially back then, he didn't see him very often. Uh,
And it was just this you were just a at awe, right,
and at some level, I think barb the instinct you're
just like, don't squeak, don't run, you know.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
So it's still yeah, and it was just this awe thing.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
And it's just after you have a moment like that
and then you walk away with it, it's like those
great hunt it right, and you walk away, you tell
the story like forty thousand times and you just every's
so jacked up and like happy and high five and
and that story doesn't end for like four days. Yeah,
And that's how it was with my dad. So it
was it just imprinted in me so much, and it
was just like that animal created that that moment, and
(04:16):
so then I was just as a kid, I was
like I wanted.
Speaker 3 (04:18):
More of that.
Speaker 1 (04:20):
And here is grizzly encounter number two.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
And then there's one time. And again I think it's
important to tell the story because it's the truth of
a bear's capability. I had a bear look at me
in a way that I'd never been looked at before.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
And this was in Yellowstone, actually, yeah, it was this
time of year.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
So we were going out to the very beginning of
elk calving season. So elk start calvin. It's right now,
May what fifteenth, So they start calviing like the next.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Week or two.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Sure, and the bears love e elk calves.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
I mean, that's just it.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
And some of them are very good at it. You know,
some bear some grizzlies on the el caves at all.
But if you're an elk calf eater and you know
that food sources out there, they'll go look for them.
So we were going to an area where I knew
that there was gonna bears looking for all calves and
we're gonna film it. So we go out there and
it was just this big open stage brush and there
(05:13):
was a bunch of cows out feeding elk, and so
he knew there was calves stashed in the sagebrush. And
so what you look for is when a bear's in
a hunting mode and their behavior, their body language has changed.
Speaker 3 (05:23):
A little bit more.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
You know, bears kind of usually kind of wander and
they're kind of slow, but when they're looking for something
to eat, that's like in predator mode, they kind of
have a little bit more of a heightened step of
quickness to them, and they start to do this thing
like a bird dog when you take a bird dog out.
They just started to zig zagon, just trying to flush.
Speaker 3 (05:42):
That's what they're doing.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
They're just trying to flush the calves. Because they can't
smell them, they just try to bump them and then
if they get up or they'd make noise or move, they.
Speaker 3 (05:50):
Just nail them.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
So we're sitting there watching this bear coming in. I'm like, yes,
it's perfect, I know there's calves. Here's a bear coming in,
and all of a sudden it just stops and looks
towards us and starts walking on a straight line, but
with that same kind.
Speaker 3 (06:03):
Of heightened behavior.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
And I'll never forget because I always paying attention to
the wind. The wind is blowing in my face, like
fifteen twenty miles an hour, so I'm like, this bear
can't smell us, so we're just gonna hold still. Well
this it keeps coming and coming. I just think it's
behavior is weird. It's kind of looking like it's looking
at us right. So I stand up and I'm like, okay,
I don't like the way this bears look.
Speaker 3 (06:26):
I'm gonna just let it know. I'm a person.
Speaker 2 (06:28):
Sometimes I just don't know what you are if your
holding still right. So I just go up and I
just like wave my arm, like come over here, bear,
And as soon as I do that, it just starts
jogging like faster, and I'm like.
Speaker 3 (06:38):
Oh, this ain't good. So then I want to thing
I happen to me.
Speaker 2 (06:40):
The bear spray and I have a thirty mile an
hour wind in my face or twenty mile an hour
wind in my face.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Now that this is not good.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
So I just I remember getting up on me, didn't
hear me?
Speaker 3 (06:49):
And I go bear, I'm ready here, bear, And.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
I'm waving my arms and kind of doing jumping jacks,
and he just starts scoring and ears are forward like
locked in like a cat chasing the mount, and it's
closing the gap. And I remember I was just with
one camera guy, and I just remember thinking, I'm gonna
reach down grab my backpack.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
I'm gonna throw the backpack at this.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Bear, and then if it hesitates from that backpacks in
front of it, I'm gonna try to like get off
to the side of it and like do some like
army roll and bear sprays. So when I picked up
my backpack over my head, it was probably ten yards
and it just as soon as I go like this,
it just locks, it breaks up, just screeches. So I
see this change of behavior, right, and I just hold
(07:33):
that backpack over my head and I just hold still,
and it sits there.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
And just.
Speaker 2 (07:40):
Just growls and just this big deep guttural move moaning,
and it does these like little flinch like kind of
like flinches towards us to try to get.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Us to move. And I just didn't say anything.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I just literally held the backpack like this over my head,
and just as it started to kind of half circle
walk around, just kind of mirrored it like a like
a like a great dish, right, And I don't know
what happened, man, it did this pride for twenty seconds,
thirty seconds, but it felt like forever.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
And then it got to the side of us in
the wind.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I think it probably got a little bit of a
whiff of us, growled and moaned a us a bunch more,
and then it just walked away really slow. And when
I looked at this bear up close, emaciated hip bones
are sticking out.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I looked in its mouth.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
It was gap mouth, and it was all salivating, and
it was all foamy around its mouth. Its teeth were flat.
This is a big, old male, old desperate and I
know just the way that bear looked at us that
it considered us as food in that moment. I think
it's such a I mean, it's lightning striking twice kind
of odds, but desperation, man, any animal us even right, yeah,
(08:51):
probably would never have crossed that line. But it was
at that point in its life where it probably was
in the den all winter star went out there was
trying to catch all calves, couldn't catch any. And then
they just two two hundred pound dudes standing over there,
and thought, hmmm, they look like I got to eat right,
so I'll die, and it just it decided. But then
I don't know, maybe I became six foot five with
this weird hat on my head and didn't run, didn't
(09:14):
make any did anything wrong, and just sold my ground
And that was just enough to make it decide not
to cross the line that day. But I didn't sleep
for like three nights after that. It shook me so hard.
I mean again, at that point, even thousands of encounters,
but never one like that. And it's just one of
those things where you're like, this is the reality is
these bears are capable of doing this, no doubt, right,
(09:36):
And if you let your guard down and you act
like they're big, fuzzy, teddy bears, that's how you're gonna
get hurt. It's going out there understanding what they're capable of,
understanding what they really are, and and then being ready
for it.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
You know.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Yeah, It's just that's what you gotta do.
Speaker 1 (09:53):
Two encounters with grizzlies with the same person, but two
very different experiences. The person you hurt tall talking there
was a man named Casey Anderson. Casey's a lifelong outdoorsman,
a naturalist, a hunter, and a person who has spent
his career explaining nature to the world, which included some
appearances on Oprah and Conan. By the way, some wild stuff.
(10:16):
We'll also be hearing from some representatives from Montana Department
of Fish, Wildlife and Parks.
Speaker 5 (10:21):
Danielle Euler, I'm the Wildlife Stewardship Outreach specialist at Montana Fish,
Wildlife and Parks. I work throughout the entire state.
Speaker 6 (10:29):
Kyle Roscoe, I'm with Montana Fishwife and Parks Bear Management.
I'm a technician with those guys out of Region three
here in Bozeman. Jeremiah Smith, I'm the grizzly bear specialist
FIR Region three in Southwest Montana, and I work for
Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Between all the different perspectives that we have represented here,
covering everything from experiences of a modern out doorsman, wildlife conflict,
and wildlife biology. I firmly believe that during this podcast
will be like a hungry bear flipping rocks over and
search for food and leave no stone unturned. Let's dive
in first by getting a basic grasp on grizzly bear
(11:04):
biology and ecology. This is important having a better understanding
of the animal in question will allow us to form
much more informed opinions.
Speaker 5 (11:14):
First kind of cool thing to think about grizzly bears
is like the landscape that shaped them, just like with
black bears. You know, grizzly bears are animals of open landscapes,
not exclusively so, but you know, prairies, tundra, meadows, places
where they can dig for food in a grass dominated
landscape with cover. Their utilizing all their habitat. So that's
(11:36):
a defining feature. And we think that part of why
they are reactive to encounters, why they act a little
bit different than black bears, is that being an animal
of open lands, when they're you know, encountering a threat,
their instinct is to stand their ground and protect themselves
or act aggressively. So I think that's the why grizzlies
have the reputation that they do. So it's a little
bit of their evolutionary history, right. And then as far
(12:01):
as they're yearly cycles, so they're coming out of hibernation
in March, April and May, they're awake all the way
into the fall. The beginning of the season is kind
of a slow progression of bears coming out of their den.
Then they're looking for food anywhere it's available, high up
in the mountains or down low. The biggest limiting factor
there being snow, so once our snowpack is melted off,
(12:22):
they could be high or they could be down low.
And then breeding season is Midsummer. Then later into the
fall they go into hyperphasia, so that's like late August
to the time they hibernate and they're eating as much
as they can to get ready for winter, and that's
when we see a spike in human bear conflicts because
bears that are getting ready for winter eating as much
(12:42):
as they can, they're not as aware of their surroundings,
so it's just pretty easy to surprise them. One study
showed that they consumed up to twenty thousand calories a
day at the peak of hyperphasia. So that's not the
entire time, but you can imagine a wild animal looking
for that amount of food. How easy that would be
because I like forging, hunting all that, and I like
(13:03):
knowing my plants, and I try to think about going
in the woods and like getting that much for calories
in a day, and it would be it might take
me a lot longer than a day to find that
much food, so it's easy to surprise them that way.
And then all of us here bowhunters in this group,
so I have no shade on bow hunting. But bow
hunting is risky in bear country because you're quiet, you're
(13:24):
sneaking around the time of year when they're easy to surprise,
and you put your in kind of the same areas
as the grizzly bears are, and then they're going into
the den end of November, beginning of December, so that's
a little bit of a rundown on their yearly cycles.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Gris habitat selection and yearly cycles essential info for forming
opinions and making decisions on a species. Now let's learn
about their size and what they eat.
Speaker 6 (13:48):
I'm glad you brought this up because it's a myth.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
That's a good point.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
Ye, it's the reason great topic.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah, because you'll hear like, oh, that bears stood fifteen
foot tall.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
That's eight hundred pounder for sure.
Speaker 1 (14:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 6 (14:00):
Yeah, no, everyone thinks we have these eight hundred thousand
pound bears. Jeremiah and I we handled two adult male
grizzlies this week. One was four hundred the other was
four to sixty. And that's a great average size. Granted
they're coming out of the den, but a lot of
our bears haven't lost a ton of weight, you know,
right when they come out of that den. So four
or five hundred, it's not an uncommon size for an
adult male. Grizz and his prime females are that two
(14:23):
to three hundred, I mean two fifty. That's a good
average sized female.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
And there's a fall weight, and there's there's a spring weight, right,
so they're going to gain calories as they go through.
Speaker 6 (14:32):
So yeah, I think the record of out of all
you know, over a thousand bears we've caught down here
in the gritty Yellowstone ecosystems, just over seven hundred pounds.
Speaker 1 (14:40):
Really, I'll tell you what, which you'll hear at home, right.
I won't say here it all the time, but I
have heard it. I mean, like it does make sense. Right,
the further you get away from grizzlies, the higher of
the misunderstanding to get. But they're like they got a
thousand pound bears out there. I don't think they do.
Speaker 4 (14:55):
Alaska, Yeah, not down here, but Alaska, we don't have
the cow down here.
Speaker 6 (15:00):
I mean, it's a tough place to make a living.
For these bears. They eat over two hundred and sixty
different things down here to make a living.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
You know, really, from the day they get up to
the day they go to bed, there's on average about
two hundred and sixty different species between plants, animals, you
name it, that they kind of move through. They're an
opportunistic omnivore and that's why they're still walking the planet.
Speaker 1 (15:22):
Okay, we've heard bear encounter and charge stories from Casey.
We've heard grizzly ecology and biology from Danielle, Kyle and Jeremiah,
which leads me to believe that we're ready to dive
into more thought provoking questions such as how should we
manage grizzly bears today and how should we shape our
human attitude towards them.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
I grew up in Montana, so since I could walk,
I've been in grizzly bear country. I mean almost every
day for thirty thirty five years, I've been out in
grizzly country, or some facet of that. I've spent I
mean an imaginable amount of time. I've had thousands, no exaggeration,
grizzly bear encounters. I've spent a good part of my
life sneaking up and trying to film grizzly bears doing
(16:03):
the opposite of what people should be doing. So I
fast tracked to trying to understand them. And then on
top of that, when I was twenty five, I.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
Decided I was going to raise a grizzly bear. Yeah,
I saw that.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
So, you know, I've had this like crazy kind of
grizzly saturated kind of life, you know. So I've seen
all sides, you know, and I like to put it
in perspective. I mean, I've raised the grizzly bear. I've
wrestled with the grizzly bear. I've been charged by grizzly
bears in the wild, and I've carried a man's body
off the mountain.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
That's been killed by a grizzly bear.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
I've seen the whole spectrum. They're all a product of
their environment and how they've been raised, and how they
experienced the earth, and their time on Earth and their experiences,
and I mean, I know, you know, and it's a
big issue right now. When you're making management decisions based
on fear or emotion, they're not making good decisions. And
(16:57):
I worry about that with with grizzly bears a little bit,
and I think that you see, you can see the
result of that. I mean a lot of times it's
like and people are like, why do we need them around?
Speaker 3 (17:06):
You know, that's what you get that all the time.
It's like, why are we even worried about them?
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Why are we trying to keep them here?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (17:13):
And so my question was having the understanding and kind
of like the value system that I have from so
much time hunting. I want grizzlies around, But how do
you explain to somebody like, this is why we need
them here? How do you get that across?
Speaker 3 (17:26):
It's a tough one.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
I mean, it's a question I asked myself all the time.
Speaker 3 (17:30):
I mean, do we need them here?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
You tell me?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I mean I think that if we decide that we're
going to weed out everything that makes us uncomfortable in
the wild in the wilderness, we're going to kill exactly
what the wilderness is. And there's something to be said
about a grizzly bear being out there. When you walk
around here in Montana, in grizzlebear country, you feel it, right,
It's a feeling you don't feel probably in Mississippi it's
(17:54):
a feeling you don't feel a lot of other places,
and there's something about that. There's a value in that
that's you can't replace it. And you know, you know,
there's all the you know, you hear all the rhetoric
and things that people say about you know, they're a
keystone species. There a specie that indicates a healthy ecosystem.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
That's true, I think.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
At some level. But again it's like what does that mean?
Speaker 1 (18:17):
Yeah, it's a big it's a big broad term that
sounds nice, What does it mean?
Speaker 3 (18:20):
What does it mean?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
And I do think that you know, if a grizzly
bears living there, it does indicate that you're in a
place that is healthy. And I think ultimately, no matter
why you want that resource to remain intact, to have
that indication is a wonderful thing because a healthy ecosystem
is something that everybody, no matter how you use it,
is important. And if that requires it you have to
(18:41):
carry bear spray or a handgun, learn how to.
Speaker 3 (18:44):
Use both your tools.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
That requires doing different things with your food sources. If
that requires us having that outdoor knowledge to keep these
places alive, I think it's a it's something worth having
and we're doing Casey gave us a lot.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
To think about there, And if you're and you did
hear him correctly when he said that he decided to
raise a grizzly bear when he was twenty five years old.
This action is one of the many things that landed
him on shows like Oprah. Like I mentioned earlier, this
guy has lived an interesting life to say the least.
But here's the main thing that I think we should
focus on from that last piece, and just say, y'all
(19:20):
can't say I didn't give you a fair warning. I'm
going to ask some hard and thought provoking questions. Here
you're ready, Here we go. Do we need grizzly bears?
I mean, really think about it. Do we need grizzly bears?
And allow me to challenge us further in saying, when
you think about your answer, don't think about it in
terms of addressing an audience of folks that already understand
(19:43):
hunting for the life of an outdoorsman, think about having
to answer that to a much broader audience because in
disclaimer this part, here's my opinion, but I feel like
we almost have to think that way, especially when you're
discussing an animal that finds its way into mainstream conversations
as much as grizzlies do. Why do we need grizzlies?
(20:03):
Why should grizzly bears be listed or delisted on an
endangered species list? Should grizzly bears be hunted or should
they not be hunted? There are folks out there that
never want to see grizzlies removed from the endangered species list.
There's folks out there that think grizzlies should be removed
and should be managed like a game animal with the
regular hunting season. There's folks that think we should be
(20:24):
able to shoot any bear that we see on site,
regardless of the situation. And there's folks that think grizzlies
are warm and fuzzy and would never harm you, so
we should never harm them. Like I said, there's a
wide spectrum of opinions out there. So do you have
an answer? Think about it. Let's focus in on the facts,
(20:49):
because in my experience, when honing in on topics of
high opinion, relying on facts is most important.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
The way our programs are designed is to try to
dispel a lot of the miss about grizzly bears and
concentrate on the facts. About grizzly bears. What we know
through science, biology, experience, our eyes, what we see, what
we do, how we deal with them, where we see them,
and how they interact on the landscape, whether it's on
public land, private land, in the wilderness or you know,
(21:17):
mixed up amongst you know, houses and stuff like Big
scy or even the outskirts of Bozeman. Right, So there's
a lot of angles there. But I think most people,
even if there is some misunderstanding of grizzly bears, if
they're interested, they'll go out and they'll try to learn that.
And I think this the best folks can do. Things
are changing, they're adapting to their landscape, just like we're
adapting to ours, and so just getting that information out
(21:39):
to folks, and we're an open book. I mean, you know,
folks call us and ask us all sorts of questions,
not just from a reactionary standpoint and due to conflicts,
but also proactive things that we can do moving forward.
And so you know, they're a wild animal. At the
end of the day, they're dangerous and unpredictable. There's no
denying that. And a grizzly bear and a black bear
(21:59):
can rear change anything anytime if it chose to do so. Fortunately,
most of the time we don't see that. But there
are encounters that happen. There are bad events that happen,
and those things are what I think make the news,
that's what you hear about all the time. And so
our job is to sort those instances out, but also
(22:19):
keep on analyzing why did this happen. On average, we
handle around one hundred to one hundred and fifty conflicts
a year. That's nowhere even close to probably what's actually happening. Right,
it's only if you call us and talk to us
that we can catalog these conflicts and try to figure
them out and work on them. So again, Kyle and
MAI's job essentially is conflict specialists when it comes to
(22:42):
grizzly bears and black bears, mainly grizzly bears, and so
in Montana, in the Yellowstone ecosystem, we have a high
density of grizzly bears that's recovered. It's a great growing population.
We've got a lot of folks that are here. That
population is increasing, and so the interaction between people and
bears is happening, and it'll probably happen a little more
(23:02):
often than it did twenty or thirty years ago. You know,
my predecessor, Kevin Frye, was a grizzly bear specialist here
for thirty years, and I worked with him for fifteen
of those years. And even in the fifteen years I
worked with him, I saw a significant change in southwest
Montana as far as not only the number of people
that live here and build here and move here, but
the number of bears that are here and their density
(23:25):
in one particular spot, and the expansion and increased distribution
of those bears. Right, it's a natural thing. And so
our jobs are not only reactively responding to conflicts between
people and bears, but also proactively getting out ahead of
that and trying to prevent conflicts from happening in the
(23:45):
first place. And and Danielle's role in that is massive
because back in the day, you know, me and Kevin,
I kind of did everything, and when before I worked
for him, he did it all by himself for the
most part, And as that bear popular grew and the
human population grew, he didn't have time or we didn't
have time to go run over and do all these
(24:06):
things we really wanted to do. As far as preventative
measures for bears because we're reacting to conflicts. And so
fast forward to now, and we've got this great education
program that's huge. We've got me and Kyle being able
to work with our warden staff and our biologists staff
to handle both black bears and grizzly bear conflicts and
(24:26):
turn it into kind of one large program that can
adapt not only locally, but regionally on the fly and
then in between regions. You know, Southwest Montana is an
interesting spot for grizzly bears because we back up against
Yellowstone National Park Idaho, Wyoming. We all work together because
bears don't know borders or boundaries, and so we all
(24:48):
know each other.
Speaker 3 (24:49):
We talk all the time.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
We've worked with each other over the years, and so
it's a very interactive group of people that are dealing
with and handling conflicts and trying to proactively prove vent
them long term with a growing population of bears and people.
Speaker 1 (25:05):
Allow me to further contextualize some of what Jeremiah just
shared with us. In nineteen seventy five, the year that
grizzly bears were listed as endangered, the state of Montana
had a recorded human population of seven hundred and forty
eight thousand, two hundred and eight. Idaho had eight hundred
and thirty one thousand, nine hundred and eighty two, Wyoming
(25:26):
three hundred and eighty one thousand, six hundred and ninety five.
Fast forward to twenty twenty four, the recorded population of
Montana is now over one point one million, Idaho right
at two million, and Wyoming right over half a million.
That's a significant population increase of humans, which in turn
means more humans on the landscape, more housing, more humans
(25:49):
spreading into areas where they previously were not. Pair that
with the recovering and growing bear population, and you were
met with the unavoidable reality that humans and bears are
simply going to cross paths more often.
Speaker 6 (26:05):
No, there's definitely a lot of people that have figured out, like,
if we're going to be here, they're here, we're going
to have to tolerate each other. And a lot of
folks are great, you know, they understand that the bears
just trying to make a living, same as them, and
if you don't work side by side and kind of
have that tolerance for one another, it's not going to
work in the long run.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
Oh, I was just going to say, there was a
human dimension study, a social science study on people's attitudes
about grizzly bearries in Montana. I don't know four years
ago or so, and what the common thread was is
like most people, it was like over ninety six percent
I think valued grizzly bears as a part of Montana's
natural heritage. Where you started to see differences is like
(26:46):
what people's tolerance were for how where they lived and
how close they lived to their homes. So some folks
have a really high tolerance. They're fine with grizzly bears
fairly close, but pretty much nobody wants them in their backyard.
You know, whether you love grizzly bears are you're pretty
skeptical and you're not. You don't want them anywhere near you.
Nobody's really interested in having them really really close to
their home. But overall, Montanas appreciate that that grizzly bears
(27:11):
live here.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
I'll be completely honest with y'all. In the studies and
research I've done so far for this podcast, I have
yet to find an animal or even a topic that
brings about more nuance than a grizzly bear. Danielle said
it best by referencing the study that showed over ninety
six percent of people in Montana valuing grizzlies as part
of the Montana heritage. But where you start to see
(27:34):
variances is when you get into people's tolerances for them.
So in Layman's terms, people are thinking, so, where are
these bears exactly? And how close are they to my house?
So to speak? And as I stated earlier, the human
population in these grizzly areas only seems to be going up.
So at some point it's inevitable that we as humans
(27:55):
are going to have to make some decisions.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
And it's a funny time, especially over in this neck
the woods here in Yellowstone Country in Montana, Idaho Wyoming,
where we're on the cusp of what are we going
to do next with grizzly bears? Right, And a lot
of people would expect that I would be like anti
hunting grizzly bears, but I'm not.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
I mean, I'm a hunter.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
I understand the importance of managing animals, and no matter
what they are on a landscape, we need to it's
the only way that they're going to be around for
a long term. But I also hear from a lot
of hunters that the reason why they shouldn't we should
be hunting grizzly bears is because I see them all
the time when I'm out hunting. They're everywhere. They're losing
their fear of people. Is that a reason to hunt them?
(28:37):
We did that with all the other animals. Is that
the reason to hunt them, or or should we hunt
them because their population is getting too high and for
this ecosystem and a bunch of biologists has actually come
up with the data to say that's the case. Maybe
that's that's the reason we should hunt them, not because
we're afraid of them.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
And it's okay if you can be afraid.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Of something to understand, then I think that that's the
part we have to understand them. And the thing is, man,
I'll tell you it's a lot of people aren listen
to this and think that this guy's crazy why we're
listening to him. But I'm here to tell you you know,
I'm not against hunting grizzly bears, not at all. Again,
And I think that's really important, and I think it's
really important for us to understand animals that were out
there in the woods with no matter what they are right.
(29:16):
And I think in that understanding we can make better
management decisions. Yeah, and I think that's just the bottom line, man.
We can't manage animals based on fear. We have to
base our animal management practices on facts.
Speaker 1 (29:29):
Interesting take and insight from a man like Casey Anderson.
I appreciate both the thoroughness of his answer as well
as his willingness to share with us outright his thoughts
on such a controversial topic. And I want to hear
more from him on this, but first I want to
be sure to let the biologists from MFWP way in
on this subject as well.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
At the end of the day, for the most part,
grizzly bears required large chunks of dirt without people in it.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
Right.
Speaker 4 (29:56):
So the original idea when they listed grizzly bears you
hear about all these recovery zones is that they sought
these areas like Yellowstone National Park and a surrounding area
they called a recovery zone, that we would recover bears
in these areas because there's large, contentious pieces of public
land that don't have people in it. Right. People visit,
(30:17):
people move through, but they actually have fairly untapped, untouched
forest or wilderness or different type of land use classifications
you want to have. And I don't think what anybody
thought backed in was that those bears would start to
expand so far out like they assumed.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
I think that the.
Speaker 4 (30:33):
Idea of the recovery when it met the original recovery criteria,
that the bear would be delisted and they'd be managed
just like every other game species in Montana. And that
time frame has been pushed along over time. And so
that's a lot of arguments you hear in the news
and everything else about grizzly bears is delist them, don't
delist them. All that well, we stay underneath of that
(30:55):
because we our role in grizzly bear management doesn't matter
whether they're on or off the list.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Right, your job doesn't change.
Speaker 3 (31:03):
We're still dealing with conflicts no matter what.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
Now. As an agency and as bear specialist, I truly believe, Yeah,
I think grizzly bear should be delisted. Absolutely. The numbers
are there, they're recovered, they've done a great job. We've
got good secure habitat, we've got great rules and regulations,
regulatory mechanisms they are put in place, and yes, those
things could be changed here and there, for sure, there's
no arguing that. But to keep something on a list
(31:28):
for that long, I mean, it's a goofy fact. And
these guys probably get sick of me saying it, But
I was born in nineteen seventy five. These things have
been on the list as long as I've been alive.
Fifty years is a long time to keep something on
a list, you know. I mean the idea that in
the Endangered Species Act is to recover and move on
to something else, and I think that's what a lot
(31:50):
of people get frustrated with. I'm sure, I think they
really do. And you know, these areas where like you
and Kyle were talking about, Danielle, it's like you can
go into an area and have a mix of people
in Montana and their opinions and their ideas on grizzly bears.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
And that's great because I.
Speaker 4 (32:05):
Think that's the way it should be, because everybody's got
their own experience with them, They've got their own effect
that the bears have on them. You know, if you're
a cattle rancher and you've got a bear coming down
and eating you know, four or five calves every other day,
that's not good. I wouldn't be happy.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
About that either, you know.
Speaker 4 (32:22):
And so our jobs and wildlife services in those particular
instances is to get in there and try to remedy
that situation because there's a lot of bears out there
that aren't causing conflict. Sure, because we manage the population,
we don't manage the individual and that makes a big
difference because that's how wildlife management should be. Singling out
individual animals I think can cause a lot of problems
(32:44):
when it comes to the public's view of how wildlife
is managed.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Do you think there's any like possibility wise if they've
becoming delisted? I know that's an opinion question.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
No, it's a podcast, but my fingers are crossed now.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
I mean, it's it's politics and litigation, and so again
we that's above our level. We kind of stay out
of that. Sure, as far as recovery criteria goes for
the original recovery zones in Montana, they have they have
accomplished that.
Speaker 6 (33:12):
In fact, Yellowstone Day.
Speaker 4 (33:14):
For Yellowstone Cabinet Yack, the Yellowstone ecosystem has literally been
recovered since technically, as far as recovery criteria goes ninety
nine to two thousand and two.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
Right in there, checked all the box, checked all the.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
Boxes, n CD.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
I don't think as.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
Far off, but yeah, yeah, and the Cria yaks has
not quite gotten there yet. But these two ecosystems make
up Idaho, Montana and Wyoming and most of Montana. The
cabinet yak is a pretty small component up there, but
just as important. But when you've got a massive recovery
population sitting next door, you know you're gonna have distribution
(33:50):
that's going in and out.
Speaker 1 (33:51):
Sure. Like I said at the beginning of this episode,
my role here is not to tell you how to think.
I'm here to present you with facts and what I
learn doing this research in these interviews, and the facts
are that biologists and grizzly bear specialists believe that there's
enough data and evidence to support removing bears from the
endangered species list. I believe this to be a very
(34:14):
important factor. I also think it's important to highlight Jeremiah's
comment about the difference between managing populations rather than managing
individual animals. Virtually all of the successes that North America
has had in terms of wildlife management has come from
an angle of population management, not individual animal management. This
(34:35):
is an important factor that cannot be ignored, regardless of
what species we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
You use the word resource, right, Yeah, that all means
something different to other people. You know, to other people
like Okay, now you're looking at them like a commodity
and they're just an animal on the landscape, and you're
like no, no, egawn, you know, that's a broad word there.
In some level, there's a value there and it's like
a commodity. But sometimes you just got to look at
it some way and get mad about this the idea
(35:01):
that you've used that word, and it's one of those
things that's kind of ridiculous to me because I think ultimately,
if that resource is there, if the bears come back
in Montana and we have the ability to hunt them,
then they're healthy.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Yeah, so it's a good indicator.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
Yeah, yeah, and that resource no matter what the value
of that resource is, where that means you're gonna go
with your son and opening day and kill one, or
if that means you're gonna go walk out there while
you're sniffing wildflowers and see one, it's a value. It's
a value that we all collectively want on the landscape.
And if we can figure out away from to make
that happen through management, that's what conservation is all about, right,
(35:40):
and everybody can be happy.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Here's some more facts for you autumb Ale over in
regards to wildlife in North America, animals that are hunted
sustainably with regulated and managed hunting seasons are some of
the healthiest wildlife populations throughout the entire country. And there's
a lot of reasons for that, some of which being
habitat protection, restoration, and also the cultural value that we
(36:02):
as humans assigned to them. That's a fact. I want
to ask Jeremiah Smith about his opinion on the future
of grizzly bears and what a potential hunting season could
look like if grizzlies were ever delisted.
Speaker 4 (36:15):
In regards to grizzly bears, I hope we're a delisted population.
I hope we have the state management, which we already do,
to be honest with you, management of grizzly bears since
the day they've been listed. The states are doing the
day to day management and are federal partners. You know Yellowstone,
Grand Teeton, they're managing bears in there as well. The
(36:36):
Fish and Wildlife services role is really where we check
in because it is a delist or a listed population.
In order for us to do a management action, so
to speak, we need to get permission to do that.
And they've always been pretty dang good about working with
us on that because we're on the ground dealing with it.
But moving forward that there's still a I think a
viable population of grizzlies on the landscape that low conflicts
(37:01):
with people. You know, everybody's kind of getting along. I
think what we've accomplished inside the recovery zones with successful recoveries,
but I think that's something to hang a hat on.
I think they've done a great job. Those bears are
going to continue to reproduce and be available out there
for the folks that want to go and check them out,
and you know, maintain a little bit of a buffer
(37:22):
between people and bears. And that means that conflict number
drops and everybody's okay with that.
Speaker 1 (37:28):
What about you know, the idea of grizzlies being delisted?
What about that changes? Like why you're like, man, that
would be great, fingers crossed that happens. What changes like,
what can y'all do with a delisted grizzly that y'all
can't do now.
Speaker 5 (37:43):
I want to hear from you guys too, But it
won't change, like, we will continue to do our jobs,
but it's important that we uphold our end of the
deal with how the Endangered Species Act works. So I
think that's why it's important, and I think it's important
for all the other species that are on the list
for that to continue to function properly.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Gotcha.
Speaker 6 (38:04):
Yeah, And I think it'd go a long way to
help build that tolerance back too. Some folks are just
you know, that have been dealing with a recovered population
for twenty years. Yeah, they're losing faith in the system. Jeremiah,
real quick, can you kind of speak to maybe what
a possible hunting season across the three states would look like,
because I know a ton of folks think that it's
just going to be open season potentially like black bears,
(38:27):
and within a year or two could hunt them back
down to you know, two hundred bears right. Well, I
mean I can't speak to you exactly how that'll look.
So a good example is the Montana is one of
the few states was asked to come up with hunting
regulations for grizzly bears. Okay, Okay, So we put together
a hunting regulation for grizzly bears, which really isn't much
different than our black bear hunting rags other than obviously
(38:49):
we don't have the numbers, and the population is shared
between Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming plus two National parks and
the Wind River Indian Reservation, right, and so the Montana
portion for hunting was literally designed inside the recovery zone
and what they call the demographic monitoring area. So imagine
there's Yellowstone, there's a cocentric circle outside of that, and
(39:09):
then there's another one outside of that. Inside of that
is where we count grizzly bears. Inside of that is
where mortalities count, births count, all of the count. So
everything you hear about the population of grizzly bears and
the Yellowstone ecosystem is inside of that ring.
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Gotcha.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
It's not the rest of Montana, the rest of Wyoming,
or the rest of Idaho. It's literally there. So a
thousand bears may not seem like a lot of bears.
That's just inside of that ring. And that's an estimated population,
that's not we know exactly how many are in there
it's typically more than what we think. And so our
hunting program was basically designed as a draw tag, like
(39:46):
a limited and we have each one of these units,
we have mortality limits that we have to follow inside
of that ring, and so based on the population estimate,
based on the estimate, and so you know, let's say
the population estimate was eight hundred on twenty twenty four,
and from twenty twenty four to twenty twenty five, we
have a mortality limit set that X number of bears
(40:09):
can die before it triggers something. So if that mortality
limit isn't met, there's a number in between that mortality
limit and where we got to. Those are the numbers
of bears that would actually potentially have and hunters would
have a chance to potentially hunt, and that number would
be split up between Wyoming, Idaho and southwest Montana. So
(40:30):
the reality is is that if that hunt took place,
you're talking one bear, maybe two or three in Montana
southwest inside the recovery zone in the DMA. Now outside
of that might be a different story. That's where our
commissions come into play and start talking about or do
we have areas that we're starting to see a higher
density grizzly bears that maybe isn't going to work in
(40:52):
an agricultural or a ranch setting or a subdivision setting,
things like that, right. I mean, there's a lot of
aspects to gay Man. So is the hunting season itself,
at least for the Montana portion that we can speak to,
would have been a very it's a very limited hunt
starting out, and it's a quota system most likely in
the early stages. But you know, Montana's arm rule essentially
(41:14):
says we were not going to hunt grizzlies after the delisting,
and that might change our current one says we won't
hunt for five years until, which is kind of a
monitoring period to kind of see how things go right.
Speaker 1 (41:27):
So you wouldn't delist it, get a hunting season go
all right, general grizz tag everyone.
Speaker 4 (41:32):
That's one of those common misunderstandings, Right. So even if
we decided to do that, even if the you know,
the state of Montana said we're gonna hunt grizzlies back
because it was a listed population, there's triggers set in place.
So if Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho decided we're gonna go
out and we're gonna shoot every grizzly bear and bring
it back down. When that number gets down to a
(41:52):
specific spot, let's say it's eight hundred or five hundred,
the triggers kick in and you're right back on the list.
So there's no reason why anyone state would want to
hunt grizzly bears back to the extinction. It just doesn't
make any sense. There's checks and valid and there's lots
of people that would argue that, and that's that's their opinion,
and it's perfectly fine with them if they want to
(42:13):
argue that way.
Speaker 3 (42:14):
I totally understand that.
Speaker 4 (42:15):
But again a lot of misunderstanding and misinformation out there
about what a hunt actually looks like in a state
of Montana, or Wyoming or Idaho for that matter. But
I can only speak to Montana's portion of the Yellowstone ecosystem.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
This is why I find so much value in hearing
from folks like Jeremiah Kyle and Danielle. These folks are
out there every day conducting scientific actions, research and observations
and can give us thorough answers about what an actual
grizzly hunting season could look like. If that day ever comes,
I want to give Casey a chance to weigh on
(42:49):
the future of grizzlies as well.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Try to find the people who are asking questions and
are always trying to learn. They kind of ride the
fence in the middle there, and that's where I said
to you, man, and that's the one thing sitting here.
I might have thirty plus years of experience with grizzly bears,
but I'm learning every day. And as I go out
there and learn, I just like to try to answer
those questions the best I can, and I'm wrong sometimes,
(43:11):
and that's that's just the truth of it. That's kind
of the wonderfulness about being around unpredictable animals in the
in the wild, where it's just kind of an unpredictable
place and it's always changing in the day and age.
I think the future of grizzly bears in North America
is going to be a positive thing. I think some
of those old fearful mindsets are kind of going away
a little bit. I think new the newer generations are.
(43:31):
They're they're believing in science, they're leaning into those things,
and I see what's going to probably happen and what
I kind of hope is going to happen. You know, ultimately,
if the Endangered Species Act was successful and the pairs
recover and they get to a point where they are
an animal that can be hunted, then they could become
the value of them changes a little bit. I think
(43:52):
at some levels, what we want is that population to
get so big.
Speaker 7 (43:54):
That that we can do that that it's a healthy population,
that the resources, financial resources are going to continue to
help the bear expand into places that they can live,
and that the population the bears are going to just
get healthier and healthier.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
That would be the perfect world where everybody wins. Right,
you go out there and you still have grizzly bears
on the landscape. That's the goal. And I think they
were going that diriction. You know, but you knows everything.
The pendulum swings so hard back and forth.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
It's like a wrecking ball, man.
Speaker 2 (44:22):
You know, you gain here and you lose here, and
you gain here and you lose here. But I think
that ultimately it seems like it's going that way, and
I hope that's where it goes.
Speaker 1 (44:38):
So we have the desired outcomes from both Montana Fish
Wildlife and Parks as well as Casey Anderson. I wouldn't
say they're identical but they do share some strong similarities
lining up and delisting a regulated hunting season and wanting
a bright future for grizzlies by way of a healthy
population and minimal conflict with humans. So what do y'all
(44:59):
want for an out? What do you think or hope
the future of grizzly bears in the United States will be?
Have you come up with an answer for if we
need grizzly bears here? And why think about it? I
hope all of you enjoyed this episode of Backwoods University
as well as bear Grease in This Country Life. If
you liked this episode, share it with someone you know
(45:19):
that has strong opinions on grizzly bears, and be sure
to stick around because if this podcast was a bear,
we haven't even come out of the den yet. There's
a whole lot more on the way.
Host
Clay Newcomb
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