June 25, 2024 • 35 mins
It’s time to investigate item two on Jesse and Holly’s airtight queer icon checklist: Underdog Status. They need to find in him experiences of struggle that would make him relatable to queer people, so they can root for him as an underdog.
Show notes:
Read a transcript of today’s episode
Live recording of The River where Bruce talks about his dad
If this is your first time thinking about The Boss as a queer icon, and you want to explore these new feelings you’re having, me and Holly have made a playlist: Queer Springsteen. Think of it as a Queer Bruce 101 - it’s a combination of Bruce songs that we think are queer anthems, and then covers of Bruce songs by legendary queer artists. Some of them are their friends, who made the covers to celebrate the release of the show!
Buy Jesse’s Gay Bruce Merch and support trans affirming surgeries and families evacuating Gaza xoxo
Credits:
Because the Boss Belongs to Us is a production of Molten Heart and iHeartPodcasts
Creator: Jesse Lawson
Hosts and Executive Producers: Jesse Lawson and Holly Casio
This episode features: Naomi Gordon-Loebl, Jazmine (JT) Green and Lex
Producer + Sound Designer: Jesse Lawson
Production Assistant: Tess Hazel
Mix Engineer: Michelle Macklem
Original music and theme: Talk Bazaar
Show Art: Holly Casio
Fact Checking: Serena Solin
Legal: Rowan Maron and Feil
Molten Heart Executive Producer: Jazmine (JT) Green
iHeartPodcasts Executive Producer: Lindsey Hoffman
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, it's Holly. Just a quick note before we start.
If you're enjoying Because the Buss Belongs to Us so far,
please tell people. It makes a huge difference to us
if you like, subscribe and review the show on your
listening platform, and if you literally just tell your friends
to listen. We are on a mission, after all, and
for the sake of science, we need as many people
as possible to go on this journey with us to
(00:22):
get Bruce recognized.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
As a queer icon.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
You can do your bit too, And a producer note
from me. This episode contains a discussion of homophobic verbal abuse.
Take care listening.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Is Bruce Camp?
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Yes he is.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
This is episode three of Because the Bus Belongs to Us,
a podcast where two nerds who are convinced that Bruce
Bristeen is a queer icon spend seven episodes on a
question to get everyone else on our sidetam I'm Jesse
and I'm.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Holly, and we are riding high of a huge win.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
That's right, folks, it's official, Bruce Springsteen is Camp.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
We have ticked off the first light on our airtight
queer icon checklist that we made up an episode one.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Now the checklist Item two.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
I'm in a mixed CD for a girlfriend I had
written in SHARPI you, Me and all the stuff We're
so scared of, which is the line from Tunnel of Love.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
This is writer and Bruce Mega fan Naomi Gordon Lebou.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
And I love that line. It's like the lights go
out and it's just the three of us, You, Me
and all the stuff We're so scared of.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Naomi wrote a really seminal article for The Nation back
in twenty nineteen called The Queerness of Bruce Springsteen. It
was one of the first pieces of queer Bruce content
that I read, aside from Holly scenes.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Naomi is a wordsmith, and that's why they're are experts.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
For this episode.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
We need someone who can dive deep into lyrics and
get their head around the myths and stories that Bruce tells.
We caught Nami up on where We've got to you
so far on our queer icons checklist.
Speaker 5 (02:14):
Honestly, it's going pretty well so far us so.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Our first tech point there was that queer icons have
to be camp and that is like an esthetic choice,
but it's also this like vibe, this truth telling, this
like way of being that queer people recognize. And we
have just woken to some camp experts and they agree
with us that Bruce is camp.
Speaker 5 (02:37):
I'm sure that you're ald degree to I do agree.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
And our next checkpoint item, which is what we wanted
to talk to you about, is we need to be
able to identify with them as an underdog, making them
relatable to the queer experience.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
Yeah, I think underdogs is a great word for it. Actually,
I really like that, and I also think it's a
great word for Bruce.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
And there you have it, Naomi, god and Marble says,
Bruce is an underdog.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Thank you for listening to episode three because the bust
alongst us.
Speaker 5 (03:06):
Okay, we're joking.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
We are professional queers in Stem. We're gonna need more
evidence than that to see if Bruce really can be
seen as an underdog.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
That's after the break, we're back.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Talking to Naomi Gordon leb about the second item on
our mate Bruce being seen a queer icon checklist? Can
he be seen as an underdog? Since Naomi was a kid,
they found themes in Bruce's music that felt relatable to
their struggles as a queer person.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
I think I was always drawn to his gender admired it,
related to it, like wanted to emulate it, and he
just like had the exact aesthetic that I wanted for
myself as a kid who was like a mask kid,
like a kid who always felt like a boy. Even
(04:03):
though we think of him, or I think of him,
and I think a lot of people think of him
as this kind of like icon of masculinity. Actually, so
much of his music is about having a pretty complicated
relationship to masculinity and struggling with it and feeling like
never enough or never the right kind of masculine, or
like feeling not right in some way. Have you guys
(04:28):
heard the live recording of The River that's like twelve
minutes long where he talks about his dad? Yes, yeah,
I haven't, Oh Jesse, you gotta listen to okay. And
there's like a twelve minute long or fourteen minute long whatever,
live recording of the River, And during it he does
the thing that he often does, which is he tells
(04:50):
this long story that sounds very off the cuff, but
I think it's actually probably pretty practiced, and it's a
story about his dad. He talks about how his dad
was always on his case and always giving him a
really hard time about his hair being long, or saying
to him, when the army gets you, they're going to
(05:10):
make a man out of you.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
These beautifully crafted, intimate reflections are a big part of
Bruce's live shows. I've seen him live so many times
at this point that stories like this are really familiar
to me. By my seventh show of The Wrecking Bottle,
I could almost talk along with him like I'd learned
these stories as lyrics. But it doesn't matter. The emotion
is always there. You feel like the luckiest person in
(05:39):
the world to hear about Bruce's internal life. The story
he tells in this particular live recording of the River
goes pretty deep into the struggles he had with his
dad's expectations of masculinity.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
It's about him being an underdog right, not being able
to live up to whatever the expectations are of him. Which,
really I think that really shows is that, of course
all of these things are constructed, and ultimately this like
myth in our culture that masculinity or femininity or any
(06:11):
like traditional gender rules or gender expressions are kind of
just like biological and endemic to who we are. His
music is in some ways about like what a falsehood
that is right, which is very queer.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Yeah, in some ways, you know, you've got like AT's
muscle Breece and you've got these like esthetics and things.
But then he sings a song like real Man. The
chorus of real Man is He's that you can be
on your chest, well any monkey can, but you make
me feel like a real man. He's like, my deep
romantic will love for you. It's whats my gender?
Speaker 5 (06:43):
And I find that really really comforting as someone who's
trying to navigate what are those things?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I think?
Speaker 4 (06:48):
Yeah, I think that Bruce. I mean, I'm not gonna
say he's like some kind of perfect feminist, and frankly,
I just don't really know what his feminist politics are like.
But I do think he's critical to some extent of
masculinity and I appreciate that, Like I appreciate the ways
that he talks about the taboo and kind of stigma
(07:08):
around mental health struggles for men, Like I appreciate how
honest and transparent he is about his mental health and
his book.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
If we're looking for a sense of struggle from Bruce, something.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
That we can look to and think he's been through
stuff like I've been through and he survived, so I
will too. His relationship to masculinity could be one of
those things.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
I want to believe that.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Bruce is aware of masculinity as a thing that's separate
from sexual gender and the complicated ways that plays out
in a world that has expectations for you based on
the gender you're assigned at birth. So that plus his
intentional vulnerability around his own emotions.
Speaker 5 (07:49):
Feels like the kind of struggle we could see ourselves in.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
One of the ways that I see him singing about
being an underdog in ways that we can kind of
rude for him is he's singing about working people in
the United States and like the great myths is the
American Dream.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
We were just talking about Bruce's speech in the live
version of the River, but the lyrics in the song
itself are a great example of Bruce's writing on class.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
First walled about his sister, really and it's about these
two people who get married and they're really in love
and then like all the difficulties of real life as
a working class person, kind of like seep in.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
The couple in the song grew up with big dreams
for their lives, which are quickly dashed when the girl
ends up pregnant while she's still at school. They marry young,
and the guy spends his life working hard physical jobs,
struggling to earn enough to support his family.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Romance becomes harder as like economic struggle becomes more real.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
The guy in the river keeps comparing the way he
imagined his life would go and the much more challenging
reality that he's ended up with. That's pretending to not
remember those dreams and his wife pretends not to care.
You can really imagine this couple sitting next to each
other on the sofa watching TV, silently holding their disappointments
(09:15):
with the circumstances life has dealt them.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
He sings, is a dream a lie that don't come true?
Or is it something worse? So many of Bruce's songs
are about imagining another better life as possible dreams are
running away and living a life of adventure and romance,
and this line really stands out apart from those other songs.
It's about grieving missed opportunities and the pain of even
(09:48):
letting yourself want something more.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
But the refrain of the song and the chorus is
all about sort of that there's still this element of
romance there.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
The refrain of the song is about the couple going
down to the river they used to swim in when
they were young and first in love. Even when they're
older and disillusioned, even when the river is dry, the
couple keep returning to this place where once they felt
free together.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
I think that that feeling of like kind of magic
between you and another person, finding ways to make it
possible even when things are really hard and are not
they don't match the script we've been given for what
romance looks like, that where everything's perfect and easy. I
think that's a really distinctly queer feeling too, and maybe
(10:37):
that's partly why I.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
Connected with that song.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
This comes up again and another of Naomi's favorite Bruce songs.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Tougher than the Rest, is infurious song about how Bruce
is not like all these other boyfriends that someone could have.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
The song because some girls they want a handsome damn
or some good looking jar on their arms. Some girls
like a sweet, talking room ya. Bruce is none of
those things, but he's tough. The song is not like
I'm tough, I'll protect you.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
He's saying I'm tough I'm here for the real shit,
Like I'm here to go through hard things with you.
Life is hard, Like there are hard things, and like
I'm someone who can walk beside you through them.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
I like that because it's not like a typical strength
of like I I'll protect you, like, don't worry about this,
It's gonna be fine. It's like a strength through vulnerability.
He's never he never shies away from vulnerability. He's like
very open to like this scares me. I'm faithful of this.
I don't know what's around the corner, but let's let's
go together.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
I love that, Holly.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
I love the way but that that's exactly right.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
He's not afraid to talk about being afraid and this
feeling of like I don't know what's around the corner,
but we've got each other. We're gonna look around the
corner together. I think of it as a really queer
thing too.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Naomi felt something similar to this. One night when they
were in college. They were sitting out in the porch
with their brand new girlfriend.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
Making out and just being super happy and like totally
oblivious to the world around us, just wrapped up in
each other.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
And then this Copp was a full of drunk men.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
And shine this like bright flashlight out of their window
so that we couldn't see them.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
They started shouting a bunch of grim threatening things at
Naomi and their partner.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
She needs a real man, like come over her and
I'm gonna show you what a real dick can do,
like that kind of thing. And it was horrible. Obviously,
it was like terrifying and upsetting, but it also had
this thing of like disrupting this moment of just like
blisp between us.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
This is still so often part of queer dating, especially
when you're also trans also POC. Part of your love
story is this low level threat of violence from the public.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
We know that there are people and places in the
world that are hostile to us, but we are together
in it. And I feel like that is a kind
of intimacy that is wrapped up in being a queer person.
I'm thinking of I'm on fire when he talks about
(13:34):
waking up, uh freight train running through the middle of
his head. Yeah, he's not singing about queerness, but I
think this feeling of like a freight train running through
the middle of your head, this feeling of like there's
something that's so achy and so insistent that it wakes
you up in the middle of the night a certain
(13:55):
kind of pain. It is like very real to me
and very queer.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Also, he's just so fucking emo, Like that imagery is
so like he can tell. It's almost like he's a thet,
a nerd or something, you know what I mean. It's
just like so over the top imagery.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
It's so true. He's so emo. I love that description
of Bruce. He's so emo. It's true, he really is.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Sometimes I do worry that loneliness is like the ultimate
queer feeling really paints into a corners, just like that's
how fait, We're just doomed to be lonely. But it's
a different type of loneliness. It's that disconnected like I
need my people, I need a future, I need hoop,
I need healthcare, or needs somebody.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Who gets what this is. Like, it's a.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Real physical like, oh, I feel like I'm torn away
from something.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
That is the other side of Bruce's music as I
feel like he expresses this fundamental yearning, but he also
there's always a sort of hint of like, but there's
something else out there for us, you know. It's very beautiful,
and I think classic underdoc I would say.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Okay, so in terms of our chatlist, we're looking pretty good.
Naomi definitely thinks there are struggles in Bruce's stories that
feel relatable to the queer experience.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
But and forgive me for saying this, who is Bruce
brings Seen which Bruce Bringsteen are we talking about here?
Some of Bruce's songs are about him, but sometimes he's
singing it from the perspective of a character he's made up.
We can definitely relate to lots of different struggles in
the lyrics of his songs. But what about Bruce the
man himself?
Speaker 1 (15:39):
That's next, Holly Jesse, because the boss belongs to us.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Before the Break, Naomi made a strong argument for a
bunch of themes in Bruce's song and the stories he
tells being relatable to the queer experience, and Holly made
the case that he's an emo, and both of those
things are important entry.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
But we're still not quite satisfied in our agenda point
underdog status right now, it's hard to separate the man
from the music. Is Bruce an underdog or is it
just the characters in his songs? Does that even matter
if we can take our own meanings from them.
Speaker 6 (16:27):
Early on, I knew I had a bad desire from
bailing my fists into my eyes and blasting thunder road.
In Bruce, I found a safer masculinity, a weight of
place to put that longing, a boyhood. You're not mad
enough for me to hate woman enough for kissing. This
yearning inspired a move across the sea to set free
that bad desire. I changed my clothes, my hair, my face,
(16:50):
and somewhere I met a similar heart who shared that
bad desire. And sometimes weel it with our four heads
pressed together.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
That's one of my friends, Lex reading a Bruce Springsteen
inspired love poem that they wrote for their partner Legs.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Sometimes we yell it with our four heads pressed together.
I feel that so much in my little heart.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Lex is another of my friends that I met through
being queers who love Bruce Springsteen. They actually live in
New Jersey in Asbury Park. Every day they walk around
on the same street that Bruce has walked on a
million times, And.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Since Bruce Springsteen is of course from New Jersey, we
needed a person on the ground who could take us
around Bruce's home to to understand where he came from.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Our exec producer, Jasmine JT. Green went to visit Lex
at their flat in Asbury Park.
Speaker 5 (17:53):
High Works.
Speaker 7 (17:54):
Good to see her too. It's beautiful, there's so much stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Lex moved to Asbury Park partly because they love Bruce
Springsteen so much. They were born in New York but
grew up in England. They'd visit New Jersey as a
teenager and always just vibed with the culture of it.
Speaker 6 (18:15):
Michael Maca, Romancebury, Springsteen, the Sopranos, Weird New Jersey, the magazine.
This state has everything to offer. You've got mountains, beach,
farmland city. If you want it, it's got it, and
it's got people that are incredibly honest. I just fell
in love with it. Weirdly, it just became a goal
(18:36):
to move here. So when the opportunity arose, I thought,
let's do it. That's what brought me to New Jersey,
almost like a fandom magic, Like I was just obsessed
with it. New Jersey, specifically Asbury Park, was the space
that I was able to start the medicalized side of
my transition.
Speaker 7 (18:57):
And then from being here for it will be my
fish year.
Speaker 6 (19:01):
You know, I've found myself and I've grown from being
this very scared human being, scared and shy human being
into I'm still shy, but I'm not scared anymore. Like
I'm living as myself, and I don't think I could
have achieved that in any other state.
Speaker 7 (19:17):
Alongside the culture that I get, it was with.
Speaker 6 (19:21):
Bruce's music that when I first arrived, I thought I'd
assimilate into straight culture, which is.
Speaker 7 (19:28):
Which is such a joke now considering.
Speaker 6 (19:32):
But it's also with Bruce how I strengthened a lot
of my queer relationships. He's one of us folx.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
The myth and folklore of Bruce Springsteen is totally bound
up with the myth and folklore of New Jersey itself.
New Jersey is an underdog in its own right.
Speaker 7 (19:51):
People are horrible about this state.
Speaker 6 (19:53):
They are negligent towards the art that comes out of it,
the people that come out of it.
Speaker 7 (19:58):
It's almost like a throwaway for some folks.
Speaker 6 (20:02):
And that's why Bruce, I think, is such an important
icon for this state. He's been able to shine a
light into a space that's usually ignored or just sort
of like thrown away.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Lexic Jasmine on a tour of some of their Bruce
Bits of New Jersey.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
They started at Convention Hall, a big exhibition center on
the boardwalk in Osbury Park.
Speaker 6 (20:27):
I love this building because it's old, and there's not
that many old buildings that have been kept quite like this.
It's looking a little bit worse for wear, but it's
still got a lot of character.
Speaker 7 (20:38):
I think, like for me, it feels like an old
train station, is what it looks like.
Speaker 6 (20:42):
It feels like it does emulate a train station, but
it is just it is just a space with bars
as a theater and then a hall as well.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Convention Hall hosted the premiere of Blinded by the Lights,
a film based on the memoir of journalist Sarfresmunzo, who
moved to England at three years old from Pakistan in
nineteen seventy four. As a teenager in a very white
neighborhood in the late eighties, sar Forrest found meaning in
Bruce Springsteen's music. On the day of the premiere, Lex
(21:15):
was working at a soap shot inside Convention Hall that evening.
Speaker 6 (21:20):
I was just doing my job and I started to
hear people yelling Bruce, like just yelling Bruce. And I
don't know if you've heard more than fifty people say
the same name.
Speaker 7 (21:30):
It's pretty jarring.
Speaker 6 (21:32):
So I ran outside the shop to see what was
going on, and it turned out that he had actually
turned up for this premiere. And I stood on a
box and I cried like old white men cry at
football whilst I looked at this man walk in to
see his film in the city that loves him so much.
And then after the screening he walked straight across and
(21:53):
did a small show in the hall opposite, and it
was a moment.
Speaker 7 (21:56):
Of just pure bliss.
Speaker 6 (21:59):
This person that I'd made up to be this like
myth this gender marker almost for me like this, like yeah,
everything that I wanted to be was just stood there,
casually walking and just soaking it all up, like really
humbly as well. And I think it's probably my casual
Bruce story. Everybody has one here, whether it's they've seen
(22:20):
him do a shot of tequila or they've just waved
at him on the beach, like every person that has them.
That day, I got my New Jersey points.
Speaker 7 (22:29):
I guess.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Bruce Ringsteen has such an interesting image in New Jersey.
He's at once a real man who everyone seems to
have a story about seeing in the flesh, and he's
the stuff of myth imagend. Every place Lex and Chasmine
walk past has a Bruce story attached to it.
Speaker 7 (22:51):
Maybe you can duck into the arning. Yeah, you think
they'll kick us out.
Speaker 6 (22:58):
So we are looking directly at the Stone Pony music
venue in Asbury Park.
Speaker 7 (23:04):
It's tiny inside.
Speaker 6 (23:05):
It looks ginormous, but the actual bar is minuscule. The
Stone Pony is actually in front of the in front
of Porter, which is the building in which Clarence Clements
and Bruce Springsteen met.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Clarence Clemens is such an important figure in New Jersey
and in Bruce Sprinkstein's life. He was Bruce Brinstein's best
friend and saxophonist. The building Lex and Jasmin are standing
outside Porter used to be called the Student Prince.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
As the myth goes on a dark and stormy night,
Clarence went to the Student Prince to see Bruce and
his band play.
Speaker 6 (23:52):
It's rumored that when Clarence Clemens went to open the door,
the wind took it down the streets. So it's kind
of it's a nice effect that it's so windy for
us today, because it's as windy probably as it.
Speaker 7 (24:05):
Was that very night, right.
Speaker 6 (24:07):
So the stone pony itself is monochromatic, So there's a
big black pony painted on the side of it, and
it's got giant letters as well, so you can't miss
it from whichever direction you're looking at. And that is
in contrast to Porter, which is a big blue rectangle building.
Speaker 7 (24:24):
I think, so you're fine, have a nice day, guys.
Where did I leave it distracting?
Speaker 2 (24:35):
No?
Speaker 7 (24:35):
No, I mean like people think you're like the the
unofficial person of the I wonder why.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
It's a couple of people color outside.
Speaker 7 (24:50):
Yeah, so just like he sorry, the rumbling wind. All right,
So we're heading back to the car.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Next on the tour Lextic Jasmine to Freehold, where Bruce
grew up.
Speaker 6 (25:10):
Yeah, I think you're on my liming visible and this
object is not a good I'm just gonna hold my hands.
So we are in Freehold looking at the building in
which is in place of the rugmill factory where Bruce's
dad used to work. I think it's important to note
(25:31):
that on our way here, driving here, there was a
sense of tension that filled the car. I think where
we saw a change in the flags. No longer were
they're Pride flags. It was instead a lot of cop flags,
a lot of American flags, which is a different kind
of standard to what I'm used to. I don't know,
(25:55):
things just feel a little bit more tight, like you
can't breathe, like there isn't space to do anything else.
Speaker 7 (26:02):
I don't know, how do you feel like?
Speaker 6 (26:06):
It was a sense of like there was like a
bit of a warmness that was in Asbury that coming
here is very much like the sense.
Speaker 7 (26:15):
That I usually feel whenever I go to any sort
of suburban space. And this is not me.
Speaker 6 (26:23):
I'm sure there are pockets of freehold that are beautiful
and really kind and welcoming, But where und stood right now,
I don't see that.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Lex and Jasmine are stood looking at an apartment block
where the factory once stood, where Bruce Springsteen's dad worked.
Factory is one of my all time favorite Springsteen songs,
and it reminds me so much of my dad.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Through the mansions of fear, through the mansions of pain,
I see my daddy walking through them factory gates in
the rain.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
My dad worked in the textile factory, very similar to
the environment Bruce's dad worked for about thirty five years
for my entire childhood. I watched him walk through the
gate to this huge, imposing, old stone warehouse. As a kid,
I was so so proud of my dad. He was
my hero, going off to this important, physically demanding job.
(27:16):
But that job ultimately wrecked his health and chipped away
at who he was.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Back toor he takes his hearing back to, he gives
him life, the work. We're working, just the working life.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
My dad's factory closed down years ago, but the building
is still there, he says, it's all been sold off
to random companies. Now there's a new apartment block standing
where Bruce's dad's factory used to be.
Speaker 7 (27:42):
It's just a hepo concrete. It doesn't have the same feel.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Over forty years after Bruce wrote the song Factory, there
are still people with few options but to work physically demanding,
low paid jobs that don't leave space for actually getting
to live your life. New Jersey might look very different
to how it did in the seventies, but when Springsteen
plays Factory live, even today, it still stands as a
(28:06):
contemporary anthem for working class hardship.
Speaker 6 (28:10):
So that escaping, that needing to get out, you know, that,
to me is the essence of an underdog. You've gotta go,
you got to go, and you'll do anything to make
sure you don't have to go back. Even though he
was not a factory worker, he's still writing about an
(28:31):
experience that is helpful and honest for a lot of people.
That's why his music is so good, because people can
put themselves in his shoes, right, and that's how he's
able to be so relatable. He still taps into that
underdog status for these people like that they think that
he's achieved all that there possibly is. He is still there,
(28:53):
Bruce Springsteen. I just think because every generation feels that
way at some point the life, out of touch, undesirable,
people who feel like they're on the bottom of the heap,
because that's a feeling that doesn't go away.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
You know.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
It's an amazing skill that Bruce Springsteen has. He's now
a multi millionaire, but he somehow manages to stay relevant,
stay loved by this city, and have people who were
demographically so different to him still find him relatable. But
how deep does that relatability actually go if it merely
comes from lyrics written before he made his millions? When's
(29:32):
the expiration date?
Speaker 6 (29:34):
It's really hard to see him as an underdog when
you know he has like so much money, you know,
like the wealth right there.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Right Until recently, Lex has felt frustrated by Bruce's lack
of investment in his hometown.
Speaker 6 (29:48):
You know, it was a little disheartening being here and
seeing spaces that were being dilapidate, that were becoming you know,
we're almost turning into to rubble and ruin when they
were meant to be so important to him.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
He has donated to a bunch of different things in
New Jersey over the years, But what does that even mean?
Can philanthropy be counted as solidarity? Especially if it's proportionately
such a small amount of your wealth When you've reached
that level of financial success, hundreds of millions of dollars,
multiple huge properties, no longer worrying.
Speaker 5 (30:21):
If you can make.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Rent, or afford healthcare or support your family financially, can
you still be an underdog?
Speaker 5 (30:27):
What a question? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Also, if Bruce's lyrics appeal to people who have felt
downtrodden in life in different ways, it makes sense.
Speaker 5 (30:41):
That he's got a very broad fan base.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Almost anyone can hear his lyrics and feel seen by
them in a.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
Way that's really beautiful.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
But it also means that he attracts groups of fans
who don't necessarily relate to each other.
Speaker 6 (30:55):
Like when I went to go see him, it was
a very interesting crowd, you know. It was a very
like why heteronormative from where I was.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Yeah. So I have been to see Bruce a lot
of times, and I'm always so conflicted by the experience.
So I always go early and a queue, and I
end up having so many conversations with strangers who I
perceive a straight guys, mostly who take one look at
me and think this person can't be a real Bruce fan,
and then kind of quiz me on Bruce trivia in
(31:25):
quite an aggressive way.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
A there is just a feeling that you get as
a queer person when you're confronted by a rowdy mass
of what looks like white, straight dudes, which is like
a run.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
It makes me feel like it is their space and
you're just in it.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
And we're both white in that sense, we are in
the majority at Bruce Giggs, So I imagine that this
feeling must be even more intense when you're one of
the few people of color in the audience.
Speaker 5 (31:52):
We talked to Naomi Gordon label about this too.
Speaker 7 (31:55):
Just real talk.
Speaker 4 (31:56):
When I went to his concert in New Jersey, I
was surrounded by white people and it's real and like
sometimes well, of course it's not the case that like
all his fans are white, but I think it's undeniable that,
like a lot of what he's singing about is a
certain specific experience that is largely about white working class
people in this country. I don't I don't want to
(32:16):
disconnect him from his whiteness.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Yeah, there's lots of elements of our relationships to Bruce
and what he represents that feel complicated. Is one thing.
Saying that queer people can find themes in Bruce's music relatable.
And yes, there are so many more queer fans and
POC fans of Bruce's music than you might expect.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
And it's not that you have to be the same
as someone to find meaning from their work. But what
does it mean when the majority of people in your
icons fandom probably don't share your identity, your life experiences,
or even your politics.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
Sometimes I feel a little icky about it. Like one
thing I would say about him is that, like, I
don't think he's ever been like really out there with
rat it left lyrics like, there are other straight whites's
man musicians who I think arguably have been much more
political than him. I think it's important to be able
(33:13):
to admire his work, appreciate his work, be fans of
his work, be moved by it, and also be realistic
about his limitations. I think it's important not to put
him on a pedestal. I wouldn't call Bruce a queer
hero like. Ultimately, these are stories that many queer folks
(33:38):
have connected to, and this is music that many queer
folks have connected to. But that doesn't mean that he's
infallible in any way. For me, it's important to be
a fan, but not to mythologize him and not to
give him that to cast him in that queer hero light.
Speaker 7 (34:05):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Yeah, this whole series is about getting Bruce recognized as
a queer icon, to cast him in that queer hero
light that Miomi just said they would never do.
Speaker 5 (34:19):
Maybe we shouldn't be doing this.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
That's next episode.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Because Because the Boss Belongs to Us is a production
of Martin Hart and I Heart Podcasts. We're hosted by
Jesse Lawson and Holly Cassio.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
The series is executive produced by Jesse and Holly and
created by Jesse Lawson.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
This episode was produced and sound designed by Jesse Lawson,
with production assistants from Mariah Dennis and Tess Hazel.
Speaker 5 (34:49):
Michelle Macklam is our mix engineer.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Our original music and theme is by Talk Bizarre at
Talk b A Z A R Underscore.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Our show was designed and illustrated by Holly Cassio at
Holly c A s I O.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Fact checking by Selina Serlin. Legal services provided by Rowan,
Moran and File.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Our executive producer from Malton Hart is Jasmine J. T.
Speaker 5 (35:11):
Green.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Our executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Lindsay Hoffman.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Don't forget to review the show on your podcast platform.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
And tell your friends so listen. It makes a huge difference.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Bye Bye
Hey, it's Holly. Just a quick note before we start.
If you're enjoying Because the Buss Belongs to Us so far,
please tell people. It makes a huge difference to us
if you like, subscribe and review the show on your
listening platform, and if you literally just tell your friends
to listen. We are on a mission, after all, and
for the sake of science, we need as many people
as possible to go on this journey with us to
(00:22):
get Bruce recognized.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
As a queer icon.
Speaker 3 (00:24):
You can do your bit too, And a producer note
from me. This episode contains a discussion of homophobic verbal abuse.
Take care listening.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Is Bruce Camp?
Speaker 3 (00:38):
Yes he is.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
This is episode three of Because the Bus Belongs to Us,
a podcast where two nerds who are convinced that Bruce
Bristeen is a queer icon spend seven episodes on a
question to get everyone else on our sidetam I'm Jesse
and I'm.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Holly, and we are riding high of a huge win.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
That's right, folks, it's official, Bruce Springsteen is Camp.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
We have ticked off the first light on our airtight
queer icon checklist that we made up an episode one.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Now the checklist Item two.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
I'm in a mixed CD for a girlfriend I had
written in SHARPI you, Me and all the stuff We're
so scared of, which is the line from Tunnel of Love.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
This is writer and Bruce Mega fan Naomi Gordon Lebou.
Speaker 4 (01:33):
And I love that line. It's like the lights go
out and it's just the three of us, You, Me
and all the stuff We're so scared of.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
Naomi wrote a really seminal article for The Nation back
in twenty nineteen called The Queerness of Bruce Springsteen. It
was one of the first pieces of queer Bruce content
that I read, aside from Holly scenes.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Naomi is a wordsmith, and that's why they're are experts.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
For this episode.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
We need someone who can dive deep into lyrics and
get their head around the myths and stories that Bruce tells.
We caught Nami up on where We've got to you
so far on our queer icons checklist.
Speaker 5 (02:14):
Honestly, it's going pretty well so far us so.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Our first tech point there was that queer icons have
to be camp and that is like an esthetic choice,
but it's also this like vibe, this truth telling, this
like way of being that queer people recognize. And we
have just woken to some camp experts and they agree
with us that Bruce is camp.
Speaker 5 (02:37):
I'm sure that you're ald degree to I do agree.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
And our next checkpoint item, which is what we wanted
to talk to you about, is we need to be
able to identify with them as an underdog, making them
relatable to the queer experience.
Speaker 4 (02:49):
Yeah, I think underdogs is a great word for it. Actually,
I really like that, and I also think it's a
great word for Bruce.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
And there you have it, Naomi, god and Marble says,
Bruce is an underdog.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Thank you for listening to episode three because the bust
alongst us.
Speaker 5 (03:06):
Okay, we're joking.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
We are professional queers in Stem. We're gonna need more
evidence than that to see if Bruce really can be
seen as an underdog.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
That's after the break, we're back.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
Talking to Naomi Gordon leb about the second item on
our mate Bruce being seen a queer icon checklist? Can
he be seen as an underdog? Since Naomi was a kid,
they found themes in Bruce's music that felt relatable to
their struggles as a queer person.
Speaker 4 (03:43):
I think I was always drawn to his gender admired it,
related to it, like wanted to emulate it, and he
just like had the exact aesthetic that I wanted for
myself as a kid who was like a mask kid,
like a kid who always felt like a boy. Even
(04:03):
though we think of him, or I think of him,
and I think a lot of people think of him
as this kind of like icon of masculinity. Actually, so
much of his music is about having a pretty complicated
relationship to masculinity and struggling with it and feeling like
never enough or never the right kind of masculine, or
like feeling not right in some way. Have you guys
(04:28):
heard the live recording of The River that's like twelve
minutes long where he talks about his dad? Yes, yeah,
I haven't, Oh Jesse, you gotta listen to okay. And
there's like a twelve minute long or fourteen minute long whatever,
live recording of the River, And during it he does
the thing that he often does, which is he tells
(04:50):
this long story that sounds very off the cuff, but
I think it's actually probably pretty practiced, and it's a
story about his dad. He talks about how his dad
was always on his case and always giving him a
really hard time about his hair being long, or saying
to him, when the army gets you, they're going to
(05:10):
make a man out of you.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
These beautifully crafted, intimate reflections are a big part of
Bruce's live shows. I've seen him live so many times
at this point that stories like this are really familiar
to me. By my seventh show of The Wrecking Bottle,
I could almost talk along with him like I'd learned
these stories as lyrics. But it doesn't matter. The emotion
is always there. You feel like the luckiest person in
(05:39):
the world to hear about Bruce's internal life. The story
he tells in this particular live recording of the River
goes pretty deep into the struggles he had with his
dad's expectations of masculinity.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
It's about him being an underdog right, not being able
to live up to whatever the expectations are of him. Which,
really I think that really shows is that, of course
all of these things are constructed, and ultimately this like
myth in our culture that masculinity or femininity or any
(06:11):
like traditional gender rules or gender expressions are kind of
just like biological and endemic to who we are. His
music is in some ways about like what a falsehood
that is right, which is very queer.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
Yeah, in some ways, you know, you've got like AT's
muscle Breece and you've got these like esthetics and things.
But then he sings a song like real Man. The
chorus of real Man is He's that you can be
on your chest, well any monkey can, but you make
me feel like a real man. He's like, my deep
romantic will love for you. It's whats my gender?
Speaker 5 (06:43):
And I find that really really comforting as someone who's
trying to navigate what are those things?
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I think?
Speaker 4 (06:48):
Yeah, I think that Bruce. I mean, I'm not gonna
say he's like some kind of perfect feminist, and frankly,
I just don't really know what his feminist politics are like.
But I do think he's critical to some extent of
masculinity and I appreciate that, Like I appreciate the ways
that he talks about the taboo and kind of stigma
(07:08):
around mental health struggles for men, Like I appreciate how
honest and transparent he is about his mental health and
his book.
Speaker 5 (07:18):
If we're looking for a sense of struggle from Bruce, something.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
That we can look to and think he's been through
stuff like I've been through and he survived, so I
will too. His relationship to masculinity could be one of
those things.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
I want to believe that.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Bruce is aware of masculinity as a thing that's separate
from sexual gender and the complicated ways that plays out
in a world that has expectations for you based on
the gender you're assigned at birth. So that plus his
intentional vulnerability around his own emotions.
Speaker 5 (07:49):
Feels like the kind of struggle we could see ourselves in.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
One of the ways that I see him singing about
being an underdog in ways that we can kind of
rude for him is he's singing about working people in
the United States and like the great myths is the
American Dream.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
We were just talking about Bruce's speech in the live
version of the River, but the lyrics in the song
itself are a great example of Bruce's writing on class.
Speaker 4 (08:18):
First walled about his sister, really and it's about these
two people who get married and they're really in love
and then like all the difficulties of real life as
a working class person, kind of like seep in.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
The couple in the song grew up with big dreams
for their lives, which are quickly dashed when the girl
ends up pregnant while she's still at school. They marry young,
and the guy spends his life working hard physical jobs,
struggling to earn enough to support his family.
Speaker 4 (08:47):
Romance becomes harder as like economic struggle becomes more real.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
The guy in the river keeps comparing the way he
imagined his life would go and the much more challenging
reality that he's ended up with. That's pretending to not
remember those dreams and his wife pretends not to care.
You can really imagine this couple sitting next to each
other on the sofa watching TV, silently holding their disappointments
(09:15):
with the circumstances life has dealt them.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
He sings, is a dream a lie that don't come true?
Or is it something worse? So many of Bruce's songs
are about imagining another better life as possible dreams are
running away and living a life of adventure and romance,
and this line really stands out apart from those other songs.
It's about grieving missed opportunities and the pain of even
(09:48):
letting yourself want something more.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
But the refrain of the song and the chorus is
all about sort of that there's still this element of
romance there.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
The refrain of the song is about the couple going
down to the river they used to swim in when
they were young and first in love. Even when they're
older and disillusioned, even when the river is dry, the
couple keep returning to this place where once they felt
free together.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
I think that that feeling of like kind of magic
between you and another person, finding ways to make it
possible even when things are really hard and are not
they don't match the script we've been given for what
romance looks like, that where everything's perfect and easy. I
think that's a really distinctly queer feeling too, and maybe
(10:37):
that's partly why I.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
Connected with that song.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
This comes up again and another of Naomi's favorite Bruce songs.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Tougher than the Rest, is infurious song about how Bruce
is not like all these other boyfriends that someone could have.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
The song because some girls they want a handsome damn
or some good looking jar on their arms. Some girls
like a sweet, talking room ya. Bruce is none of
those things, but he's tough. The song is not like
I'm tough, I'll protect you.
Speaker 4 (11:14):
He's saying I'm tough I'm here for the real shit,
Like I'm here to go through hard things with you.
Life is hard, Like there are hard things, and like
I'm someone who can walk beside you through them.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
I like that because it's not like a typical strength
of like I I'll protect you, like, don't worry about this,
It's gonna be fine. It's like a strength through vulnerability.
He's never he never shies away from vulnerability. He's like
very open to like this scares me. I'm faithful of this.
I don't know what's around the corner, but let's let's
go together.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
I love that, Holly.
Speaker 2 (11:54):
I love the way but that that's exactly right.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
He's not afraid to talk about being afraid and this
feeling of like I don't know what's around the corner,
but we've got each other. We're gonna look around the
corner together. I think of it as a really queer
thing too.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
Naomi felt something similar to this. One night when they
were in college. They were sitting out in the porch
with their brand new girlfriend.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
Making out and just being super happy and like totally
oblivious to the world around us, just wrapped up in
each other.
Speaker 3 (12:23):
And then this Copp was a full of drunk men.
Speaker 4 (12:29):
And shine this like bright flashlight out of their window
so that we couldn't see them.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
They started shouting a bunch of grim threatening things at
Naomi and their partner.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
She needs a real man, like come over her and
I'm gonna show you what a real dick can do,
like that kind of thing. And it was horrible. Obviously,
it was like terrifying and upsetting, but it also had
this thing of like disrupting this moment of just like
blisp between us.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
This is still so often part of queer dating, especially
when you're also trans also POC. Part of your love
story is this low level threat of violence from the public.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
We know that there are people and places in the
world that are hostile to us, but we are together
in it. And I feel like that is a kind
of intimacy that is wrapped up in being a queer person.
I'm thinking of I'm on fire when he talks about
(13:34):
waking up, uh freight train running through the middle of
his head. Yeah, he's not singing about queerness, but I
think this feeling of like a freight train running through
the middle of your head, this feeling of like there's
something that's so achy and so insistent that it wakes
you up in the middle of the night a certain
(13:55):
kind of pain. It is like very real to me
and very queer.
Speaker 1 (14:02):
Also, he's just so fucking emo, Like that imagery is
so like he can tell. It's almost like he's a thet,
a nerd or something, you know what I mean. It's
just like so over the top imagery.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
It's so true. He's so emo. I love that description
of Bruce. He's so emo. It's true, he really is.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Sometimes I do worry that loneliness is like the ultimate
queer feeling really paints into a corners, just like that's
how fait, We're just doomed to be lonely. But it's
a different type of loneliness. It's that disconnected like I
need my people, I need a future, I need hoop,
I need healthcare, or needs somebody.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Who gets what this is. Like, it's a.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Real physical like, oh, I feel like I'm torn away
from something.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
That is the other side of Bruce's music as I
feel like he expresses this fundamental yearning, but he also
there's always a sort of hint of like, but there's
something else out there for us, you know. It's very beautiful,
and I think classic underdoc I would say.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Okay, so in terms of our chatlist, we're looking pretty good.
Naomi definitely thinks there are struggles in Bruce's stories that
feel relatable to the queer experience.
Speaker 3 (15:17):
But and forgive me for saying this, who is Bruce
brings Seen which Bruce Bringsteen are we talking about here?
Some of Bruce's songs are about him, but sometimes he's
singing it from the perspective of a character he's made up.
We can definitely relate to lots of different struggles in
the lyrics of his songs. But what about Bruce the
man himself?
Speaker 1 (15:39):
That's next, Holly Jesse, because the boss belongs to us.
Speaker 3 (15:55):
Before the Break, Naomi made a strong argument for a
bunch of themes in Bruce's song and the stories he
tells being relatable to the queer experience, and Holly made
the case that he's an emo, and both of those
things are important entry.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
But we're still not quite satisfied in our agenda point
underdog status right now, it's hard to separate the man
from the music. Is Bruce an underdog or is it
just the characters in his songs? Does that even matter
if we can take our own meanings from them.
Speaker 6 (16:27):
Early on, I knew I had a bad desire from
bailing my fists into my eyes and blasting thunder road.
In Bruce, I found a safer masculinity, a weight of
place to put that longing, a boyhood. You're not mad
enough for me to hate woman enough for kissing. This
yearning inspired a move across the sea to set free
that bad desire. I changed my clothes, my hair, my face,
(16:50):
and somewhere I met a similar heart who shared that
bad desire. And sometimes weel it with our four heads
pressed together.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
That's one of my friends, Lex reading a Bruce Springsteen
inspired love poem that they wrote for their partner Legs.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
Sometimes we yell it with our four heads pressed together.
I feel that so much in my little heart.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Lex is another of my friends that I met through
being queers who love Bruce Springsteen. They actually live in
New Jersey in Asbury Park. Every day they walk around
on the same street that Bruce has walked on a
million times, And.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Since Bruce Springsteen is of course from New Jersey, we
needed a person on the ground who could take us
around Bruce's home to to understand where he came from.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
Our exec producer, Jasmine JT. Green went to visit Lex
at their flat in Asbury Park.
Speaker 5 (17:53):
High Works.
Speaker 7 (17:54):
Good to see her too. It's beautiful, there's so much stuff.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Lex moved to Asbury Park partly because they love Bruce
Springsteen so much. They were born in New York but
grew up in England. They'd visit New Jersey as a
teenager and always just vibed with the culture of it.
Speaker 6 (18:15):
Michael Maca, Romancebury, Springsteen, the Sopranos, Weird New Jersey, the magazine.
This state has everything to offer. You've got mountains, beach,
farmland city. If you want it, it's got it, and
it's got people that are incredibly honest. I just fell
in love with it. Weirdly, it just became a goal
(18:36):
to move here. So when the opportunity arose, I thought,
let's do it. That's what brought me to New Jersey,
almost like a fandom magic, Like I was just obsessed
with it. New Jersey, specifically Asbury Park, was the space
that I was able to start the medicalized side of
my transition.
Speaker 7 (18:57):
And then from being here for it will be my
fish year.
Speaker 6 (19:01):
You know, I've found myself and I've grown from being
this very scared human being, scared and shy human being
into I'm still shy, but I'm not scared anymore. Like
I'm living as myself, and I don't think I could
have achieved that in any other state.
Speaker 7 (19:17):
Alongside the culture that I get, it was with.
Speaker 6 (19:21):
Bruce's music that when I first arrived, I thought I'd
assimilate into straight culture, which is.
Speaker 7 (19:28):
Which is such a joke now considering.
Speaker 6 (19:32):
But it's also with Bruce how I strengthened a lot
of my queer relationships. He's one of us folx.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
The myth and folklore of Bruce Springsteen is totally bound
up with the myth and folklore of New Jersey itself.
New Jersey is an underdog in its own right.
Speaker 7 (19:51):
People are horrible about this state.
Speaker 6 (19:53):
They are negligent towards the art that comes out of it,
the people that come out of it.
Speaker 7 (19:58):
It's almost like a throwaway for some folks.
Speaker 6 (20:02):
And that's why Bruce, I think, is such an important
icon for this state. He's been able to shine a
light into a space that's usually ignored or just sort
of like thrown away.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
Lexic Jasmine on a tour of some of their Bruce
Bits of New Jersey.
Speaker 1 (20:20):
They started at Convention Hall, a big exhibition center on
the boardwalk in Osbury Park.
Speaker 6 (20:27):
I love this building because it's old, and there's not
that many old buildings that have been kept quite like this.
It's looking a little bit worse for wear, but it's
still got a lot of character.
Speaker 7 (20:38):
I think, like for me, it feels like an old
train station, is what it looks like.
Speaker 6 (20:42):
It feels like it does emulate a train station, but
it is just it is just a space with bars
as a theater and then a hall as well.
Speaker 3 (20:53):
Convention Hall hosted the premiere of Blinded by the Lights,
a film based on the memoir of journalist Sarfresmunzo, who
moved to England at three years old from Pakistan in
nineteen seventy four. As a teenager in a very white
neighborhood in the late eighties, sar Forrest found meaning in
Bruce Springsteen's music. On the day of the premiere, Lex
(21:15):
was working at a soap shot inside Convention Hall that evening.
Speaker 6 (21:20):
I was just doing my job and I started to
hear people yelling Bruce, like just yelling Bruce. And I
don't know if you've heard more than fifty people say
the same name.
Speaker 7 (21:30):
It's pretty jarring.
Speaker 6 (21:32):
So I ran outside the shop to see what was
going on, and it turned out that he had actually
turned up for this premiere. And I stood on a
box and I cried like old white men cry at
football whilst I looked at this man walk in to
see his film in the city that loves him so much.
And then after the screening he walked straight across and
(21:53):
did a small show in the hall opposite, and it
was a moment.
Speaker 7 (21:56):
Of just pure bliss.
Speaker 6 (21:59):
This person that I'd made up to be this like
myth this gender marker almost for me like this, like yeah,
everything that I wanted to be was just stood there,
casually walking and just soaking it all up, like really
humbly as well. And I think it's probably my casual
Bruce story. Everybody has one here, whether it's they've seen
(22:20):
him do a shot of tequila or they've just waved
at him on the beach, like every person that has them.
That day, I got my New Jersey points.
Speaker 7 (22:29):
I guess.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Bruce Ringsteen has such an interesting image in New Jersey.
He's at once a real man who everyone seems to
have a story about seeing in the flesh, and he's
the stuff of myth imagend. Every place Lex and Chasmine
walk past has a Bruce story attached to it.
Speaker 7 (22:51):
Maybe you can duck into the arning. Yeah, you think
they'll kick us out.
Speaker 6 (22:58):
So we are looking directly at the Stone Pony music
venue in Asbury Park.
Speaker 7 (23:04):
It's tiny inside.
Speaker 6 (23:05):
It looks ginormous, but the actual bar is minuscule. The
Stone Pony is actually in front of the in front
of Porter, which is the building in which Clarence Clements
and Bruce Springsteen met.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
Clarence Clemens is such an important figure in New Jersey
and in Bruce Sprinkstein's life. He was Bruce Brinstein's best
friend and saxophonist. The building Lex and Jasmin are standing
outside Porter used to be called the Student Prince.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
As the myth goes on a dark and stormy night,
Clarence went to the Student Prince to see Bruce and
his band play.
Speaker 6 (23:52):
It's rumored that when Clarence Clemens went to open the door,
the wind took it down the streets. So it's kind
of it's a nice effect that it's so windy for
us today, because it's as windy probably as it.
Speaker 7 (24:05):
Was that very night, right.
Speaker 6 (24:07):
So the stone pony itself is monochromatic, So there's a
big black pony painted on the side of it, and
it's got giant letters as well, so you can't miss
it from whichever direction you're looking at. And that is
in contrast to Porter, which is a big blue rectangle building.
Speaker 7 (24:24):
I think, so you're fine, have a nice day, guys.
Where did I leave it distracting?
Speaker 2 (24:35):
No?
Speaker 7 (24:35):
No, I mean like people think you're like the the
unofficial person of the I wonder why.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
It's a couple of people color outside.
Speaker 7 (24:50):
Yeah, so just like he sorry, the rumbling wind. All right,
So we're heading back to the car.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
Next on the tour Lextic Jasmine to Freehold, where Bruce
grew up.
Speaker 6 (25:10):
Yeah, I think you're on my liming visible and this
object is not a good I'm just gonna hold my hands.
So we are in Freehold looking at the building in
which is in place of the rugmill factory where Bruce's
dad used to work. I think it's important to note
(25:31):
that on our way here, driving here, there was a
sense of tension that filled the car. I think where
we saw a change in the flags. No longer were
they're Pride flags. It was instead a lot of cop flags,
a lot of American flags, which is a different kind
of standard to what I'm used to. I don't know,
(25:55):
things just feel a little bit more tight, like you
can't breathe, like there isn't space to do anything else.
Speaker 7 (26:02):
I don't know, how do you feel like?
Speaker 6 (26:06):
It was a sense of like there was like a
bit of a warmness that was in Asbury that coming
here is very much like the sense.
Speaker 7 (26:15):
That I usually feel whenever I go to any sort
of suburban space. And this is not me.
Speaker 6 (26:23):
I'm sure there are pockets of freehold that are beautiful
and really kind and welcoming, But where und stood right now,
I don't see that.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Lex and Jasmine are stood looking at an apartment block
where the factory once stood, where Bruce Springsteen's dad worked.
Factory is one of my all time favorite Springsteen songs,
and it reminds me so much of my dad.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Through the mansions of fear, through the mansions of pain,
I see my daddy walking through them factory gates in
the rain.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
My dad worked in the textile factory, very similar to
the environment Bruce's dad worked for about thirty five years
for my entire childhood. I watched him walk through the
gate to this huge, imposing, old stone warehouse. As a kid,
I was so so proud of my dad. He was
my hero, going off to this important, physically demanding job.
(27:16):
But that job ultimately wrecked his health and chipped away
at who he was.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Back toor he takes his hearing back to, he gives
him life, the work. We're working, just the working life.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
My dad's factory closed down years ago, but the building
is still there, he says, it's all been sold off
to random companies. Now there's a new apartment block standing
where Bruce's dad's factory used to be.
Speaker 7 (27:42):
It's just a hepo concrete. It doesn't have the same feel.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Over forty years after Bruce wrote the song Factory, there
are still people with few options but to work physically demanding,
low paid jobs that don't leave space for actually getting
to live your life. New Jersey might look very different
to how it did in the seventies, but when Springsteen
plays Factory live, even today, it still stands as a
(28:06):
contemporary anthem for working class hardship.
Speaker 6 (28:10):
So that escaping, that needing to get out, you know, that,
to me is the essence of an underdog. You've gotta go,
you got to go, and you'll do anything to make
sure you don't have to go back. Even though he
was not a factory worker, he's still writing about an
(28:31):
experience that is helpful and honest for a lot of people.
That's why his music is so good, because people can
put themselves in his shoes, right, and that's how he's
able to be so relatable. He still taps into that
underdog status for these people like that they think that
he's achieved all that there possibly is. He is still there,
(28:53):
Bruce Springsteen. I just think because every generation feels that
way at some point the life, out of touch, undesirable,
people who feel like they're on the bottom of the heap,
because that's a feeling that doesn't go away.
Speaker 4 (29:08):
You know.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
It's an amazing skill that Bruce Springsteen has. He's now
a multi millionaire, but he somehow manages to stay relevant,
stay loved by this city, and have people who were
demographically so different to him still find him relatable. But
how deep does that relatability actually go if it merely
comes from lyrics written before he made his millions? When's
(29:32):
the expiration date?
Speaker 6 (29:34):
It's really hard to see him as an underdog when
you know he has like so much money, you know,
like the wealth right there.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
Right Until recently, Lex has felt frustrated by Bruce's lack
of investment in his hometown.
Speaker 6 (29:48):
You know, it was a little disheartening being here and
seeing spaces that were being dilapidate, that were becoming you know,
we're almost turning into to rubble and ruin when they
were meant to be so important to him.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
He has donated to a bunch of different things in
New Jersey over the years, But what does that even mean?
Can philanthropy be counted as solidarity? Especially if it's proportionately
such a small amount of your wealth When you've reached
that level of financial success, hundreds of millions of dollars,
multiple huge properties, no longer worrying.
Speaker 5 (30:21):
If you can make.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
Rent, or afford healthcare or support your family financially, can
you still be an underdog?
Speaker 5 (30:27):
What a question? Yeah.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
Also, if Bruce's lyrics appeal to people who have felt
downtrodden in life in different ways, it makes sense.
Speaker 5 (30:41):
That he's got a very broad fan base.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Almost anyone can hear his lyrics and feel seen by
them in a.
Speaker 5 (30:48):
Way that's really beautiful.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
But it also means that he attracts groups of fans
who don't necessarily relate to each other.
Speaker 6 (30:55):
Like when I went to go see him, it was
a very interesting crowd, you know. It was a very
like why heteronormative from where I was.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Yeah. So I have been to see Bruce a lot
of times, and I'm always so conflicted by the experience.
So I always go early and a queue, and I
end up having so many conversations with strangers who I
perceive a straight guys, mostly who take one look at
me and think this person can't be a real Bruce fan,
and then kind of quiz me on Bruce trivia in
(31:25):
quite an aggressive way.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
A there is just a feeling that you get as
a queer person when you're confronted by a rowdy mass
of what looks like white, straight dudes, which is like
a run.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
It makes me feel like it is their space and
you're just in it.
Speaker 1 (31:41):
And we're both white in that sense, we are in
the majority at Bruce Giggs, So I imagine that this
feeling must be even more intense when you're one of
the few people of color in the audience.
Speaker 5 (31:52):
We talked to Naomi Gordon label about this too.
Speaker 7 (31:55):
Just real talk.
Speaker 4 (31:56):
When I went to his concert in New Jersey, I
was surrounded by white people and it's real and like
sometimes well, of course it's not the case that like
all his fans are white, but I think it's undeniable that,
like a lot of what he's singing about is a
certain specific experience that is largely about white working class
people in this country. I don't I don't want to
(32:16):
disconnect him from his whiteness.
Speaker 1 (32:19):
Yeah, there's lots of elements of our relationships to Bruce
and what he represents that feel complicated. Is one thing.
Saying that queer people can find themes in Bruce's music relatable.
And yes, there are so many more queer fans and
POC fans of Bruce's music than you might expect.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
And it's not that you have to be the same
as someone to find meaning from their work. But what
does it mean when the majority of people in your
icons fandom probably don't share your identity, your life experiences,
or even your politics.
Speaker 4 (32:52):
Sometimes I feel a little icky about it. Like one
thing I would say about him is that, like, I
don't think he's ever been like really out there with
rat it left lyrics like, there are other straight whites's
man musicians who I think arguably have been much more
political than him. I think it's important to be able
(33:13):
to admire his work, appreciate his work, be fans of
his work, be moved by it, and also be realistic
about his limitations. I think it's important not to put
him on a pedestal. I wouldn't call Bruce a queer
hero like. Ultimately, these are stories that many queer folks
(33:38):
have connected to, and this is music that many queer
folks have connected to. But that doesn't mean that he's
infallible in any way. For me, it's important to be
a fan, but not to mythologize him and not to
give him that to cast him in that queer hero light.
Speaker 7 (34:05):
Hmm.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
Yeah, this whole series is about getting Bruce recognized as
a queer icon, to cast him in that queer hero
light that Miomi just said they would never do.
Speaker 5 (34:19):
Maybe we shouldn't be doing this.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
That's next episode.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Because Because the Boss Belongs to Us is a production
of Martin Hart and I Heart Podcasts. We're hosted by
Jesse Lawson and Holly Cassio.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
The series is executive produced by Jesse and Holly and
created by Jesse Lawson.
Speaker 3 (34:43):
This episode was produced and sound designed by Jesse Lawson,
with production assistants from Mariah Dennis and Tess Hazel.
Speaker 5 (34:49):
Michelle Macklam is our mix engineer.
Speaker 1 (34:52):
Our original music and theme is by Talk Bizarre at
Talk b A Z A R Underscore.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
Our show was designed and illustrated by Holly Cassio at
Holly c A s I O.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Fact checking by Selina Serlin. Legal services provided by Rowan,
Moran and File.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
Our executive producer from Malton Hart is Jasmine J. T.
Speaker 5 (35:11):
Green.
Speaker 3 (35:11):
Our executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Lindsay Hoffman.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Don't forget to review the show on your podcast platform.
Speaker 3 (35:17):
And tell your friends so listen. It makes a huge difference.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Bye Bye
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!