7. The Verdict

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm the Owaishaw. You may know me as the
former host of Visibilia. Well, I'm back with a new
show called Proxy. It's about the niche emotional questions that
no one in your life can relate to. That's where
Proxy comes in. I'll connect you to researchers and strangers
with shared experience, and you'll get to ask all your questions.
We're kicking things off with a three part series on

(00:22):
the emotional and mental health toll of layoffs. Subscribe to
Proxy wherever you get your podcasts.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
This is episode seven of Because the Bus belongs to Us.
I'm Jesse, I'm Holly, and i am James.

Speaker 3 (00:45):
That's right. For this final episode, Jesse and Holly must
face a panel of queers who will decide once and
for all if Bruce Springsteen is a queer icon. Who
am I? You ask, well, I am an actual, legitimate
queer in stem I've spent the last decade working in
engineering in life science, building robots basically because seeing is

(01:10):
Jesse and Holly have spent the entire series saying that
they are on a serious scientific mission. They've drafted me
in to give them the cloud that they so desperately need.
As you'll remember, way back in episode one, Holly and
Jesse anointed themselves with queer scientist researcher status. I went
on a mission to get Bruce Springsteen recognized as a
queer icon. That mission is finally coming to a close.

(01:34):
They've discussed if Bruce's camp, if he can be rooted
for as an underdog, and if you can dance, cry,
and falk to Bruce Springstein's music. Now it's time for
the final point on their checklist. Our hosts must present
their evidence to a panel of queer experts who don't
already think that Bruce Springsteen is a queer icon. Does

(01:57):
Bruce have it? Okay, let's go in the hot seats.
We have our two self proclaimed queer scientists, Holly Cassio
and Jesse Lawson. Please introduce yourselves and explain why you
feel qualified to the store yourselves with this scientific investigation.
Let's start with Jesse.

Speaker 4 (02:17):
Hello, my name is Jesse. I U say then pronouns.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
I'm a tourist, I am an audio producer, youth worker
and perform drag as butcher Springsteen and I have been
a proper Bruce fan for the last ten years. He
helped to drag me out of the closet of my
own brain, and that is why I feel qualified for
this panel.

Speaker 3 (02:38):
Amazing and now, Holly.

Speaker 5 (02:40):
Hi, I'm Holly, my pronouns are there. She I'm a Leoh.
I'm also a zine maker and a comic artist. I'm
the author of the Me and Bruce zine series, and
I also made the Looking for Bruce graphic memoir. I've
been a proper Bruce fan for about twenty five years
and he was my first ever queer friend, and that's
why I'm qualified to be part of this investigation.

Speaker 3 (03:01):
Thanks, seeing as you've said multiple times over the series
that you're doing a proper scientific investigation into Bruce Springsteen's
queer icon status. This episode is taking the form of
an academic peer review. I have collected a panel of
leading experts in this field, queer icondom. They will be

(03:22):
presented with Holly and Jesse's research and be asked to
interrogate its aims, purpose, methodology, and the ethics and value
of this work. It is my pleasure to welcome that
panel today. Firstly, welcome Zakia Gibbons. Please introduce yourselves, explain
a little bit about why your best place to evaluate
this investigation, and for bonus points, I'd love to know your.

Speaker 6 (03:44):
Current relationship status with Bruce. Hello, thank you for having me.
I mean, y'all did your ZOOI X science. I guess
I'll give you mine. I'm a kind answer. I'm also
a chaotic bisexual living in gay Ass Brooklyn, and I'm
from gay ass Atlanta, and I am a journalist covering

(04:07):
gay ass shit and my current relationship status with the Boss.
I honestly know nothing about Bruce Bringsteen. I don't think
I've ever listened to a whole song from beginning to end.
I am kind of coming in pretty neutral awesome.

Speaker 3 (04:28):
Next, you have Hugh Lemmy. Please tell us about your
pedigree and explain your current relationship to the idea of
the Boss as a queer icon.

Speaker 1 (04:36):
Hi.

Speaker 7 (04:36):
My name is ce Lemmy. I'm a writer and co
host of the podcast Bad Gays, and as a fully
registered and accredited to practicing homosexual, I think it's my right,
if not my duty, in fact, to be as judgmental
as I please about straight guys. But I do think
as a fan of the Boss for two decades or
more in good standing, I think I'm yet to be
convinced to the queerness of his icon status.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
Oh things are heating up. And finally, Joelle Taylor, you
know what to do.

Speaker 8 (05:04):
Yeah, Man's Joel Taylor, a poet and author, and my
latest poetry collection is called Conto and Other Poems. And
then Alphabet, which is a novel both look in part
of subculture of the eighties and nineties and reveals it
to be part of a space of radical friendship and community.
If you've seen the Rebel Dykes film, that's the kind

(05:24):
of era I'm talking about. And as such, and as
somebody who's part of that whole scene, somebody thinks of
the kind of things we did to you know, as queer,
as how we squatted and how we come to And
I just can't entertain the idea. And Bruce Springsteen is
a queer icon. I think she's everything that queer icon
is not. I can't see how this straight white multi millionaire,

(05:49):
this kind of shimmering vision of masculinity entitlement a miracle
and is a legendary terrible hair and.

Speaker 9 (06:01):
Queer right on.

Speaker 3 (06:02):
Happily now, panel, this is not an interrogation. It's not
your job to work against Jesse and Holly, but it
is your job to uphold them to the standards you
see fit. It's also important to note, for the purposes
of this study, I'm not investigating if Jesse and Holly

(06:23):
can convince you all to love Bruce Bringsteen. I'm investigating
whether you can recognize that there is enough evidence from
the research that they've done that the Boss has enough weight, bun, gravitas,
and gumption to stand as a queer icon. At the
end of this conversation, I'll be asking you all if
you can accept this research and therefore Bruce with the
same queer icon credentials bestowed upon the likes of Whitney,

(06:46):
Madonna and countless others in our community. You may say
yes or no and share suggested revisions to their thesis
of any Are we all sitting comfortably, then let's begin.
First up, we're shining a spotlight on the reasons behind
the study, What were its aims and why the Jesse

(07:09):
and Holly and barrack on this mission.

Speaker 4 (07:11):
Jesse, Yes so, because the best belongs to us.

Speaker 2 (07:14):
Is a seven part investigation where me and Holly try
and prove with real science that Bruce Springsteen is a
queer icon and I guess like the reason that we
did it is because we met. We both queer people
who loved Bruce Bingstein, and that's how we met and bunded,
and then we kind of worked out there were more
of us. So this is our love letter to other

(07:35):
queer Bruce fans out there.

Speaker 5 (07:37):
I think even though at one time both me and
Jesse thought we were the only queers in the world
that loved Bruce Springsteen or the found meaning in his work,
it turns out there are so many of us out there.
And through Jesse doing their Butcher Springsteen drag and through
me making scenes that felt like it was a way
to open up conversations and meet other queer people that

(07:57):
also had this obsession with Bruce. And I think QUI
Springsteen fans have been overlooked long enough. There is actually
so many queer Bruce Sprigsteen fans that we met that
we couldn't fit them into all six episodes. So shout
out to Tennessee Jones and Natalie Adler for their amazing
writing on Bruce. And actually I have a small dossier
to present the panel. I'm going to play a recording

(08:19):
and these are two fans. This is Claire and Lee.

Speaker 4 (08:24):
So my name is Clybidels.

Speaker 10 (08:26):
I'm a writer and a.

Speaker 4 (08:28):
Team maker and I live in Glasgow.

Speaker 11 (08:31):
I'm a trans guy in my thirties who has been
a fan of Pretty since my late teens. I identified
as a CIS straight ish woman throughout my twenties, and
throughout those years he provided a very passionate channel to
my inner queer and was quite literally the only artist
I listened to. There wasn't the same trans mass representation
back then as I see now, So even though he
was cis and straight, that's not how I considered.

Speaker 10 (08:53):
Him, although I'd heard a lot of his more famous
songs just in the ethero when I was a child.
I think the first album that I dived into was
A Darkness on the Edge of Town and it was
kind of like a real love at first listen kind
of thing. Queerness to me is so much about kind
of existing in this in between space and in this

(09:17):
like unnamed unknoble space that could go somewhere you don't
know where it's going to go, and it's about the
getting there, and it's about the figuring out. Like I
find queerness itself to be a refusal of stability.

Speaker 12 (09:34):
Of and of knowing. It's like a state of unknowing,
and I find.

Speaker 4 (09:38):
That so much in Bruce's work.

Speaker 11 (09:40):
He sparked some deep feelings of me that I know
is entirely linked to my queer identity. His seventies twin era,
his hyper masculinity in the eighties, his gentle Cowboys, Sauce Wager,
as he got older, darkness on the edge of town, backstreets,
out in the street, these songs were playing my headphines
as I walked along, and I fantasized about having a life,
a physical image, and a type of love that didn't

(10:02):
feel accessible to me at all, and Bruce was right
there with me.

Speaker 12 (10:06):
A queer icon to me is someone who articulates something
that we can't articulate for ourselves. And like Rosalita, especially
the division that's on the Live nineteen seventy five to
nineteen eighty five album, it's this like super long, drawn
out like it feels like it's leading up to a

(10:28):
kind of climax so many times but doesn't quite get there.
But when it gets there, it's just like so cathartic,
and it's all about like asking a girl out.

Speaker 11 (10:39):
I don't listen to him as much anymore that he
still has a special place in my heart. I'm an
outgay trans man, so I guess he provided a comfort
that I don't need in quite the same way anymore,
But it'll always be a queer icon to me.

Speaker 3 (10:55):
I'll now open the floor for questions from the panel
on the aims of the study. Zakiah, what are your
questions on this?

Speaker 6 (11:02):
Okay, I'm wondering, do y'all have a secret heterosexual agenda
trying to flood a queer culture with street people?

Speaker 5 (11:12):
I mean, there's already enough straight people flooding queer culture
as icons. I don't feel that's that's our agenda necessarily,
but we are opening up what that could mean and
looking at different types of queer icons.

Speaker 13 (11:29):
Why not why not have a plan as Yeah?

Speaker 2 (11:33):
No, I think that's like such an important question and
something that we've really grappled with across the series. And
I guess, like, if we're talking about the aims of
the study, I guess the reason we started it is
because there are more and more out queer icons who
are queer. But there is something about Bruce Springsteen that
drew me and Holly in, even though he's like a
cis white, straight, rich man, and so we were like,

(11:55):
we want to get to the bottom of like why
we're projecting so much onto a man like that, And
it is a promise.

Speaker 4 (12:01):
It's not just us.

Speaker 5 (12:03):
It's definitely not just us.

Speaker 3 (12:06):
Thank you all. Through your thoughts, Hugh, you seem like
a guy who cares about purpose. One are the burning
questions on your lips? I appre hearing that.

Speaker 7 (12:14):
Well, you don't need to convince me of what Bruce
sprint to the table as an artist here, Like his
music and his lyrics a specially brought me the same
sort of joy and solace and also like a sort
of richer deeper understanding of my own emotional life over
the years. But I'm just wondering whether, in tryers to
find him as a queer icon, we're kind of actually
centering ourselves here, Like have you have you considered that

(12:34):
maybe what's at stake isn't about how he helps us
understand our queerness, but also oro maybe more how he
helps us understand ourselves in the context of like other
people's heterosexuality.

Speaker 4 (12:44):
Oh say more on that please.

Speaker 7 (12:47):
When I was in my late teens and signed to
already get into Bruce it was through all these straight
CIS white boys my age who I met in the
hardcore punk scene, and I come from this like very
sort of sort of matcho sporty or you know, football
rugby type background, and then suddenly I was surround by

(13:09):
all these boys who are like really sensitive and the
way that they access their sensitivities and like thinking about
their emotional in their life was through Bruce and that's
how I bodied with them. And I was like, well,
you feel this way about him. I feel this way
about him. He speaks to both of us, and actually
it was really useful for me to think, oh, maybe
actually this image of sort of heterosexuality that I've grown

(13:29):
up with is actually more complicated, and there's other heterosexual
boys who are also as fucked up by this sort
of system as I am.

Speaker 2 (13:37):
That's come up loads in the series as well, Like
that's I think that's true for me and Holly is
like a lot of the people we've bonded with have
also been people who aren't queer but.

Speaker 5 (13:45):
Have like found something to either felt that they needed
to aspire to Bruce's version of heterosexuality or masculinity, and
in some ways, depending on who we spoke to. Some
ways that was helpful for people, and in some ways
that was almost like a punishment, like, oh, I can't
live up to that, so I have failed gender somehow,

(14:06):
I've failed being myself somehow. So it throws up all
these really big questions. And definitely the thing we found
in this scientific study is that not one single person
feels the same way about Bruce. We're all getting something
slightly different from him. It's not the same version of
Bruce that we all have in our heads.

Speaker 2 (14:24):
And also, like, it's funny that you said, like, are
we at risk of like centering ourselves in this which
I would say one hundred percent, yes we are, But
like I think maybe that's like something.

Speaker 4 (14:34):
That's quite beautiful.

Speaker 2 (14:35):
Is like a lot of what we have been thinking
about is all of the different creative ways that people
find themselves through projecting what they need to on other
people with the resources that they have.

Speaker 3 (14:48):
Thank you all. Let's move on and discuss the methodology
of this investigation. Jesse, can you please briefly summarize the
four criteria you said out at the beginning.

Speaker 2 (15:02):
Yes, so we looked at a bunch of what we
were calling at the time queer icons. Maybe they're just
gay icons, which is like you know, Madonnatina Turner, Whitney Share,
Brittany people like that. We called them our control group
because we're scientists, and we looked at what links them
all together so we could try and make a kind
of checklist, and we came up with these four points
that Bruce would have to fulfill to be a queer icon.

(15:23):
The first one is that queer icons have to be
camp and that is an aesthetic thing, but it's also
a vibe, like a truth telling Queer icons to we
have to be able to root for them as an underdog,
and what we mean by that is we have to
be able to recognize a struggle in them that they
might have got through or succeeded past, so we can
look at them and be like, oh, they've been through
stuff like I've been through, and they're on the other

(15:45):
side of it.

Speaker 5 (15:45):
Now.

Speaker 2 (15:46):
If they're a musician, they have to have good music,
and that we define that by lots of queer people
get really good at association as closeted queer teenagers, and
so it has to be music that helps to drag
you out of years of dissociation. And then we sub
genred that by saying you have to be able to cry, dance,
and fuck to Bruce Springsteen's music. And then the last

(16:07):
one is, obviously, do they have it to other queer
people who don't already think they're an icon?

Speaker 4 (16:12):
Could they be convinced? And that's why we're here today.

Speaker 3 (16:16):
Thanks Jessie. So does the panel agree with these criterias
indicative of what a queer icon is? Let's start with Joelle.
Do you think you can reduce a queer icon to
a list of four check boxes?

Speaker 8 (16:28):
I mean, to be honest and it certainly no, absolutely not,
but having it explained it actually makes a lot of sense. Really,
so I am quite I'm persuaded, Yes you can, I
think so. We camp is obviously funds of mental to it,
the idea of the underdog as well. I mean, you say,

(16:49):
good music. I get you. Obviously he's got to be
good or he wouldn't be an extremely parous musician. But
just makes my skin all off my body, and I believed,
but you know, if it's I guess good music is
what unites people and brings people together. And there are
millions of bands out there, so yes, And do they

(17:10):
have eight I'm not sure it's they got it talking.
It sounds religious, it is this sort of is that
kind of quality.

Speaker 4 (17:19):
To Oh, that's such an interesting question.

Speaker 5 (17:22):
I mean, yeah, icon comes from that, doesn't it That
whole idea of having icons that have deeper spiritual meaning?

Speaker 3 (17:29):
Yeah, Zakiya. Can you name someone for us that you
see as a queer icon and do they fill these criteria?

Speaker 6 (17:37):
Yeah, I'm I'm thinking of two names. One is kind
of like a basic cliche, but it's just the truth.
Britney Spears. I just fucking love her, and I would
say shell those criteria. She is so canapy, from her
looks to just her vibe. I love that she is

(18:01):
an unapologetically chaotic high femme and her songs are fucking bangers.
It literally makes me feel transcended when I'm on the
dance floor. Maybe that's the Poppers, I don't know. Also,
I've cried to her songs and I think I think
I fucked her song at least once. If you seek
amy my favorite bisexual anthem and also underdog like Hello.

(18:26):
She's been through so much, so I would say Brittany
is kind of my go to queer icon, and the
other one I was gonna say SpongeBob is also another
one of my dear icons, like the old show with
Spungebob is camp He is so campy, the absurdism of
him in the show. He is always fucking with gender,

(18:50):
he's gay for Patrick, and also he has also had
some banyers. Literally, I remember in third grade there was
an episode where they played in their version of the
super Bowl. They had a song and I literally shed
a single tear as like a nine year old because
it touched my car. So yeah, Mike queer icons ready

(19:12):
is one?

Speaker 4 (19:12):
Rub I love that.

Speaker 5 (19:14):
I want to get Bruce up there next to those
two people.

Speaker 6 (19:18):
The triat.

Speaker 3 (19:22):
No Jesse and Holly. Can you convince the panel that
Springsteen is still the points in your checklist? Please? Can
you take us through your findings? Let's start with chat.

Speaker 5 (19:34):
Okay, So camp was the first item on our checklist,
and we decided that camp has really an ever changing meaning.
So we've gone a little bit further than Susan Suntag's
notes on Camp and we've joined that up with more
current theories of Butch Camp and Dyke Camp. So, using
that as our starting point, we said that Bruce's looks
were super camp. Whether it's his seventies twig clok or

(19:57):
it's all American look or even some of his more
contemporary looks, we said that they were camp. We also
said that there's an element of extravagance and generosity and
world building that's contained within Bruce's songs, his live shows,
and his performative aspect. We said they're extreme in a
camp way.

Speaker 2 (20:17):
We had a lesbian fashion historian analyzed some of Bruce's
looks and one of the things that she said was
it's very gender and I feel like that's a good documentary.

Speaker 3 (20:28):
Joelle, what are your thoughts on this?

Speaker 8 (20:31):
When you first start, you know that camp has a
changing meaning. Where I went up was really darling. I
don't think so. When you started to speak, I was thinking,
because we never really do look at camp from a
diet or but perspective, and I fact, yes, I think
you're right. You know you're writing the rules as it were,

(20:51):
so you're defining what camp is. Yeah, I agree with you.
I agree, And I don't know the lyrics though, and
the look itself just really puts me off. So it
fascinates me, like what draws you to that hypromasculinity or that,
like you said, all American, what draws you to?

Speaker 5 (21:11):
Originally we had one of our criteria was going to
be could you dress up as an icon at Halloween
party and somebody else would recognize what that was? But
that was kind of too shallow for what we were
going for because you could dress up as anybody. It
wasn't about something you could dress up as. It was
about is there extravagance mixed with authenticity as part of that?
And we thought Bruce really ticked that point.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
Also, like there are some lesser known Bruce Springsteen looks
that we find to be very camp because there's obviously
in the eighties, you know, he was like all muscles
or bandanas or type blue jeans, which for us also
we do kind of look at and be like, oh,
that's you know, looks like a lot of butch Kings.

Speaker 4 (21:50):
That we've seen in the club.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
But there's also you know, there's like in the seventies
he was all leather and as in there's a look
of his from like more recently that Holly calls his
stone bush blues look just beautiful.

Speaker 7 (22:05):
The comparison of Katie Lang was really striking. I looked
up the two album covers when you mentioned on the
podcast and the spitting image of each other.

Speaker 3 (22:14):
Yeah, moving on to checklists, point to underdog status, Jesse Go.

Speaker 2 (22:23):
One of the things that we've kind of related to
in Bruce is that he has this quite critical relationship
with the expectations and presumptions based around masculinity, which we
see ourselves reflected in because it feels not too far
away from the very queer idea of like gender as
a performance. And he speaks very beautifully about masculinity in
his book and in a lot of his songs.

Speaker 4 (22:44):
So that's something that we both felt.

Speaker 2 (22:47):
You know, there are struggles in there that are relatable
to struggles of some queer people.

Speaker 4 (22:51):
There's also just.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
Like so many of his songs are about people not
understanding you, being stuck in a context, like wishing that
you could be you know, there's a very famous line,
there's something happening somewhere, baby. I just know that there
is this like yearning, and all of those are emotions
that queer people I think can kind of get on
board with. I guess we started thinking about whether or

(23:14):
not the Bruce Springsteen and of lyrics and stories as
different to the Bruce Springsteen who like walks around breathing.

Speaker 4 (23:21):
Air in New Jersey.

Speaker 2 (23:23):
He is obviously a multi millionaire, and so it feels
it didn't sit totally right with us to call an
extremely rich man an underdog. And we aren't totally sure
where he stands on some aspects of politics that are
really important to me and Holly, and we've both had
experiences of being around other kind of straight male Bruce

(23:47):
fans who've made us feel unsafe for like unlike them.

Speaker 4 (23:53):
So that was we got a bit unsure at that point.

Speaker 5 (23:55):
Yeah, And I also want to just really really stress
that doubt and anxiety are absolutely key to this methodology.
We spent a lot of time asking ourselves if we
were the right people to be doing this, if there
was any point in what we were actually doing, if
anybody would get something from this. So just to say,
as part of this academic peer review, we believe if

(24:17):
you're replicating these results for yourself or replicating this investigation,
you need both a checklist and a depression bench. So
part of our investigation, I took Jesse to what I
call my depression bench, where we just poured over all
of the things we're feeling and doubts and anxiety about this,
So that would be the apparatus you would need for
this investigation if you're repeating this in future.

Speaker 2 (24:39):
And then like another point that potentially we thought maybe
we'd add on if we did this study again is
like we ended up having this day where we were
like fucking hell, like do.

Speaker 4 (24:49):
We even like Bruce Springsteen?

Speaker 2 (24:52):
You know, and like maybe it's like a specifically career
experience that the way that we show love sometimes is
by like totally tearing apart the people in things that
we love in like really over renalizing them and like
projecting our own personalities onto people that didn't necessarily ask
for that. So that was where we ended really on
them on Underdog status is a check point.

Speaker 3 (25:15):
Hugh, what are your thoughts on this?

Speaker 7 (25:17):
Well, it's funny because the episode Yeah, where you focus
on Bruce as an underdog was for me it seemed
like you it was one that you were most sort
of anxious and critical of both him and also like
your own status in his investigations. But to me, it
seemed like it was the place where it was the
most potential request because searching for this like perfect Bruce
and his perfect fans is like, as a perfect sort

(25:39):
of political subject is obviously going to fail. But what
is clearly there is that in his writings and his
music about being an underdog, which is what everyone there
has in common, Like, that's the commonality between like all
his fans. So although he's not the perfect person, when
he writes about those things, that's what we all sort
of identify with. You that the way he approaches his

(26:02):
hometown and the sort of feeling of both like sadness
and longing in his hometown or of wanting to escape
or Yeah, his approach to masculinity is something that can
be perhaps like a caring thing to do that. All
the other fans have some similar relationship to his music
and around those things, even if they don't fuably share
our political outwork. And it seems to me that that's

(26:23):
where all music, and especially his music is so powerful
that despite the differences, the fact that we react in
the same way to those lyrics means there's a starting
point for building alliances beyond our sort of sexuality and
gender differences.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
Yeah, totally. Yeah, Yeah, it was hard, wasn't it? Because
I think that is really beautiful. And then also we
were like, is that also a bit diluting in that
if anyone can relate to Prouce Springsteen's lyrics, does that
make him a queer iconogs that make him a good songwriter?

Speaker 7 (26:53):
That's why I think he's a queer Eyeicut.

Speaker 2 (26:57):
But I guess like one of our conclusions from that
was like, there is enough in his writing.

Speaker 4 (27:05):
That allows us to create the.

Speaker 2 (27:07):
Icon of our dreams in our little brains, and that
that is maybe the same thing that people do with
other celebrities too.

Speaker 5 (27:14):
Yeah, that this we view this as just one checklist
point as well, So viewing this in the context of
other things helped us kind of start through those very
complicated emotions on that very sad depression bench.

Speaker 3 (27:28):
Thanks for the additional adults, Everyone talk to you about
your third checklist point good music.

Speaker 5 (27:37):
Okay, so we've got a lot to say about music.
We wanted to see as an icon. Can his music
drag queers back from years of association? And we looked
at whether you could cry, dance, or fuck to his music.
So in terms of crying, I can cry right now
is if the panel would like me to cry enough,

(27:58):
But I can. I just want to say I can.
And also the most important thing. Straight men also cry
to to his music as well. We have a token
straight man on the show who talked about feelings of
crying at his shows. We've seen other men crying at
his shows. I think Bruce gives us a gift of
being able to release your emotions through his music and
through his performance. So then we moved on to dance,
and we spoke to two legendary queer icons themselves, a

(28:22):
DJ Legends Unskinny Pop, who talked about they have a
set of Bruce Springsteen songs which absolutely unite a queer
dance floor and this feeling of euphoria that queers have
when hearing Bruce Springsteen in queer clubs and queer spaces.
And then we looked at the checkpoint of fucking, and
we asked a very cool professional musician who said they'd
fucked to at least two Bruce Springsteen songs. And we

(28:44):
also had a listener right in Crystal who named another
good Bruce Springsteen fucking song, which is Candy's Room, which
we didn't get to talk about in that particular episode.
So I think those were our three areas, and I
think that wasn't of our funnest checkpoints.

Speaker 3 (28:59):
Agree, Zakia, what do you think about Bruce's music?

Speaker 6 (29:04):
I'm sure I've heard Bruce Springsteen's song, but I don't know,
but like I don't know well enough to be like, oh,
that's Bruce Springsteen, or maybe I like heard it in
the background at like CBS. I don't even mean to
be shady, that's for it's like, you know, convenience store
of music. So my question is as a Bruce Nube

(29:25):
who doesn't know his discography, like, if you were to
play a song right now, what song would give me
that feeling that would make me go, oh, now I
get it.

Speaker 5 (29:38):
It's a really tough question because he's got such a
big body of music. And the one thing I'll say
before we answer it is that most of the people
we speak to have kind of said that they don't
usually listen to the genre of Bruce Springsteen's music. It's
like Americana or whatever you want of Carey's not really
a genre that a lot of us subjects in the
investigation would listen to voluntarily usually, but there's some about

(30:00):
the lyrics that pulls them in. Yeah for me, And
this is a song I always recommend to people who
don't know Bruce at all is just and it's an
obvious banger, but it's dancing in the dark because it
was my queer awakening when I was thirteen. It sounds
really upbeat, but when you listen to the lyrics, it's
a song about deep, deep depression. And there's a lyric
in there which is I want to change my clothes,

(30:22):
my hair, my face. And the way in which he
like screens sings that in the song, it's like this frustration.
It feels really tangible, like he's looking at his reflection
and what he's looking at doesn't reflect what he's feeling inside.
And I think a lot of people we've spoken to
have cited that lyric has been something that has been
a mantra for them at some point.

Speaker 2 (30:44):
And I mean, I agree with everything Holly said. I
will add one other song that we didn't get to
talk about in the poocast, which is it's a.

Speaker 4 (30:52):
Song called I'm Going Down.

Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yes, he does things I'm going down a million times,
which obviously, if you want to, you can interpret that.

Speaker 6 (31:01):
Yeah, point taken, and I will Actually I just realized
one of my favorite songs I love the Chromatics cover of.

Speaker 4 (31:10):
What's the one I'm on fire.

Speaker 6 (31:12):
I'm on fire. I didn't realize that that was a
Bruce song. So now I'm already like feeling my attachment
to Bruce like grow Emily. Okay, very nice.

Speaker 3 (31:27):
And of course, your last checkpoint is being tested as
we speak, isn't that right? Jesse?

Speaker 4 (31:32):
Correct?

Speaker 2 (31:33):
Our last checkpoint is can we convince a panel of
queer people of his queer reckons say this?

Speaker 4 (31:39):
Thank you for being here? Only time will.

Speaker 3 (31:40):
Tell, Yes, only time will tell. I am so impressed
by the vigor I see in the Panels analysis so far,
you simply must put your brains on ice. After the break,
we're interrogating Jesse and Holly's moral compasses. We're talking ethics. Baby,
that's next.

Speaker 2 (32:07):
Hey, this is Jesse and Holly letting you know about
another show you might want to listen to.

Speaker 5 (32:12):
Did you know that Radiotopia has a reality dating podcast.

Speaker 2 (32:16):
It's called hang Up, and it's kind of like a
queer cross between the Bachelor and Lovers Blind.

Speaker 5 (32:21):
And seriously, it's a blast.

Speaker 4 (32:24):
I'm a long term listener. I've been there from day one.

Speaker 2 (32:27):
It has all of the drama and chaos of a
queer reality show without any of the bullshit of unethical
reality tropes.

Speaker 5 (32:33):
Hang Ups tagline is no Rings Attached. It's a refreshing
focus on dating and connection rather than marriage. Here's a
little clip about their current season.

Speaker 6 (32:43):
Our star TEAMO is forty one years old and recently divorced.

Speaker 4 (32:46):
I haven't been on a single date in eighteen months, but.

Speaker 6 (32:49):
Now they're looking for someone special and like really hot.

Speaker 4 (32:53):
Sex, really hard public sex.

Speaker 6 (32:56):
So we set them up with six callers to date
exclusively over the phone.

Speaker 3 (33:02):
I feel like I could talk to you for hours.

Speaker 4 (33:05):
On hang Up.

Speaker 5 (33:06):
You don't just get to eavesdrop on dates. There's also
a series of eliminations, and in the end there's a twist. Well,
the last caller standing choose the star and go on
an all expenses paid vacation together, or choose a cash
prize instead.

Speaker 4 (33:19):
Guys, it's high drama.

Speaker 5 (33:20):
Also, it's hosted by friend of the pod, Zakia Gibbons.
You might even hear a little something from her in
an upcoming episode.

Speaker 2 (33:28):
The Nie season has just finished, so it's perfect time
for binging. Ten out of ten would recommend to a
friend or love or give in queer community, Probably Boyce.

Speaker 5 (33:36):
Subscribe to Hang Up Today on your favorite podcast.

Speaker 3 (33:39):
Platform, and we're back. This is because the boss belongs
to us. I'm Jane's the only actual queer in stem

(33:59):
to be feature. You're in a seven episode scientific investigation.
So far, the panel has tested the studies, aims, purpose,
and criteria. Now we're talking epics, baby, Hugh, you can
take the lead on this one. What burning ethical questions

(34:20):
do you have for our researchers.

Speaker 7 (34:22):
I'm going to say what everyone's thinking. Are you really
independent minds when it comes to talking about Bruce Springsteen?
Are you really approaching this willing to find out at
the end that actually it's not a quare eye?

Speaker 4 (34:33):
No?

Speaker 5 (34:36):
No, I didn't go into this with open hearts and minds.
I went into this fully self centered, trying to prove
a point, but learning about science along the way.

Speaker 8 (34:48):
Well.

Speaker 7 (34:48):
Also, Holly, in episode four, you says like really clearly
that you that you didn't want to believe that the
album Working on a Dream actually exists. You just pretend
it doesn't exist, which is obviously a good example of that.
But why why put through that album?

Speaker 5 (35:01):
Oh wow, this is some gotcha journalism, isn't it Working
on a Dream? In my opinion, Working Our Dream is
one of Bruce Bringsty's worst albums. It came out, I
think it's two thousand and eight or two thousand and nine,
just as Obama was being elected. It's very liberal, wishy, washy,
vague songs about absolutely nothing. At a time when a

(35:21):
political album was needed, he released a very apolitical album
and the songs do not bang. They're just really boring.

Speaker 2 (35:31):
I don't think I went into this really willing to
say that Bruce is not a queer icon, but I
will say that maybe one of the things that we've
learned along the way is like I think that our
definition of queer icon is kind of like molded and
changed across the show potentially so it still fits with Bruce.
But yeah, I think like ultimately we were like it
is maybe good to cherry pick or ignore things because

(35:53):
we're creating our own version of Bruce.

Speaker 5 (35:55):
And I think also that comes from you know, amazine makers.
So a lot of the scenes that I make our
cut and pass collage of taken the best bits of
things that I like and then making something out of that.
And I've definitely taken that approach to this scientific investigation.

Speaker 3 (36:08):
Thank you. We're almost ready to sort of panelists to
deliver their verdicts. Before that, we have some listener questions.
First off, we have Kyle Hi's Kyle here. I'm loving
the show.

Speaker 14 (36:23):
Wouldn't really class myself as a Bruce fan, but I've
been really enjoying all of the interviews and research that
you've done. I have a question, do you think that
younger generations do this as much? Because you mentioned that
part of the reason why Quiz find heroes and straight
celebrities is left over from a time and we didn't
have many out celebrities. So I wonder now that younger

(36:45):
generations have more kind of queer and trans heroes and
representations and a cup to do you think they'll be
putting as much effort into queering straight celebrities.

Speaker 2 (37:01):
Yeah, so this is something that we were kind of
wondering about in the show. It is like because of
parts of queer history. So in the UK Section twenty eight,
which was a law that prevented the quote promotion of
homosexuality but local authority. So it meant that people didn't
receive sex education like queer sex education in schools, along
with a lot of other things.

Speaker 4 (37:19):
You know, it was real.

Speaker 2 (37:20):
It was a shameful thing to be to be out
as a queer person. And then other big things in
queer history, like the AIDS crisis, meant that for reasons
of people literally not being around because they died or
not being able to come out, there was a real
kind of lack of queer elders or community leaders in

(37:41):
the public eye. And so we were wondering whether there
is a kind of like legacy of queer people having
to do this work of like projecting onto straight people
or like finding do you know.

Speaker 4 (37:51):
What I mean?

Speaker 7 (37:51):
I think as part of like queer culture is to
look for these people and make them into icons. But
I think the difference generationally might be less to do
with our history and more specifically might be to do
with the way we consume media today in social media,
that it's much harder to have that sort of old
fashioned type of relationship with an icon. Why you can

(38:12):
project other stuff on them in a way that I
don't know in the say, in the fifties and sixties
you could have done with Judy Garland, that you could
there's still sort of little information that you could make
up the back story, so you identified strongly with her,
And it's much harder for artists and musicians today to
be able to maintain that distance from their fans enough
that they can become a blank slate for people to

(38:33):
project their emotions onto. And so you either have one way,
which is the sworn like Lona del Rey, where you
can still do that because she keeps so much hidden
and it's just a performance she's doing as particular personality,
or you go like the other way, which is like
like Azilah Banks, who's just like constantly saying stuff, and
then gay people, quiet people can sort of really hyper

(38:55):
ironically take this person who says like the most outrageously
like homophobic and transfer a bit things and be like yes, yeah,
you're you're our hero and like jump on the opposite
side of that. But it's hard for someone it's just
like quite middle of the road as an artist to
let them to become an icon these days because the
sort of way we form is parasocial relations is totally

(39:16):
changed by social media, and it's just the share quantity
of access that we get to famous people's lives.

Speaker 6 (39:22):
You know, something I've been thinking about in this highly
academic panel is it's kind of reminding me of the
discourse around baby girl, you know, which I feel like
is a gen Z term that you know, was birthed
out of TikTok and then gen Z's on there, you know,
calling street cysts celebrities baby girl. So just thinking about that,

(39:48):
I just feel like, yes, I do think that there
is a generational element where just like out of the
picking for slims, so you know, you choose, you choose
on You're like, Okay, I'm gonna make you gay, I'm
gonna make you queer, and then you kind of come
up with this whole backstory and you know, you kind
of project your own desires and needs to be and
wants to be seen. And now you know there's a

(40:11):
lot more out and queer celebrities and representation, and yet
you know, we're still seeing people queer people that aren't queer,
you know, as seen in this rise of like you know,
this baby girl discourse. I feel like that's just something
us queers love to do, you know what I mean,

(40:33):
Because it's both emotionally and mentally and spiritually important to
see ourselves and other people. But it's also fun to
feel like you're kind of just inviting someone to your party.

Speaker 4 (40:50):
You know, Yeah, totally I always say.

Speaker 2 (40:53):
There's something that we talk about in episode six, which
is like, if you like zoom out from picking specific
you know, specific straight people to make into queer icons.
There's something about like claiming mainstream culture as our own,
like putting a steak into mainstream culture that isn't necessarily
made for marginalized people, including queer people, and being like yeah,

(41:14):
like I guess you want to entertain straits, but we're
here too, and like we like this too, or like
we find our own meanings from this too, and I
think there's something maybe like powerful about that.

Speaker 15 (41:24):
Thanks everyone. Next up, we have a question from Kathleen
h Halle and Jesse. It's Kathleen here in Yorkshire.

Speaker 16 (41:36):
I am living the show so far and I've heard
what you have to say. I just don't know if
I see Booth as a queer icon. I feel like
we see the checkshire. We've all got daddy issues and
that's all we need discuss.

Speaker 3 (41:51):
Joelle, what do you think?

Speaker 9 (41:54):
Yeah, I mean I think possibly for me, I was
trying to figure out why am I not persuaded by
this because I think there is a there's a difference
in my head between the iconic queer icon and a
queer a hero you know, So an icon is it's product.

Speaker 8 (42:12):
So what's a religious product to our projections? You know,
this kind of prophecy you are, you have a distance
from them, so you're able to project, you know, with
absolute clarity and meaning everything you're looking for. Whereas a
queer as somebody's actually doing something positive for us, there's
actually a politically engaged has taken on great struggles at

(42:34):
some time. So I don't know, daddy issues we certainly
will do.

Speaker 5 (42:41):
Yeah, I think it's a good point. I think we
all do have daddy issues, and I think that should
be acknowledged as part of this investigation.

Speaker 2 (42:48):
But I think, like I would say that that's like
what what Cathleen said is potentially an argument for Bruce
being a queer icon in that I'm like, yeah, like
we have reasons why we need to make new daddies,
and like maybe that's okay, Like maybe maybe he's someone
who we can fill in those gaps for.

Speaker 8 (43:10):
Which is really really interesting this fiction between a gay
icon and a queer ypo. I thought like queer would
be more, it would queer things more, you know, So
it challenges these kind of heats of normative ideologies and
ideas and so me even the names or boss and
exemplifies all of those things. So what what do you

(43:31):
think the difference is between the two?

Speaker 2 (43:33):
What is the sort of Yeah, something we talked about
a bit in the show is like who is choosing
the queer icons, because like gay icons are traditionally worshiped
by like cisc men potentially.

Speaker 4 (43:50):
And tend to be straight women.

Speaker 2 (43:53):
We think that there is a longer history of queering
straight women than it is of queering straight men, and
that might be because of women or trans masculine people
or like people within that part of queer culture. They
might relate, for example, to Bruce's masculinity in a different
way that maybe a gay man might really relate to

(44:14):
Bruce's masculinity. So we're wondering whether this is like a
new thing that we are pioneering.

Speaker 4 (44:24):
The dyke for a nice Yeah.

Speaker 8 (44:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (44:30):
The fans that we spoke to and the experts that
we spoke to in the show kind of pointed towards
there being mostly dykes trans masque fans that were finding
something in Bruce. It wasn't the same thing, but it
was finding something in Bruce, and we thought that is
worth investigating.

Speaker 8 (44:47):
Yeah, it really is.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
So it might feel affronting to be like, WHOA A
cis straight white man. He doesn't deserve another pedestal. But
maybe this is like a new thing that we've discovered
and it's not about like glorifying him. It's about like
celebrating Dyke and like adjacent culture question mark.

Speaker 3 (45:07):
Lastly, we have a question from Alison.

Speaker 4 (45:11):
Hello, this is Alison here.

Speaker 17 (45:14):
So I'm wondering if trying to ask Bruce himself was
ever part of your plan or do you feel like
he doesn't get to weigh in on this even if
you could.

Speaker 5 (45:26):
Talk to him.

Speaker 17 (45:27):
And I'm also wondering, if you did have the chance
to talk to Bruce, you're.

Speaker 4 (45:32):
Hanging out in the same room, what would you ask him.

Speaker 5 (45:37):
I've said this quite a few times during the podcast
that I'm actually just really not interested in the real
Bruce Springsteen. I love you, Bruce, I really do, but
I do think that I don't need to know his
opinions or anything. I don't need to actually meet him
or speak to him, because the version I've got of
Bruce in my head is so much more interesting and
so much more important to me than the real Bruce

(45:58):
Springsteen ever.

Speaker 2 (45:59):
Could Yeah, I think I feel quite similarly. I think
we went into this project and we were just like
Brice doesn't care about us, Like we're just two queer
people making a little podcast. There are so many pot
us about him because he's such a famous musician. If
he did hear the show, I guess I would feel
disappointed if he used it to gain the Pink Pound, Like,

(46:22):
I don't want him to be like, oh sick, I've
got queer fans now, I'm gonna like release a line.

Speaker 4 (46:28):
Of T shirts that say love is Love, Love is
Love yet exactly.

Speaker 2 (46:32):
So, I think there's something nice about the fact that
he's like a slightly unobtainable figure in our lives in it. Yeah,
it's less about pleasing him or getting him on side
and more about us being like, yeah.

Speaker 5 (46:43):
Yeah, it's not about him, us the most important people.

Speaker 2 (46:46):
It's really about us, guys. That's what we're trying to
communicate to you.

Speaker 3 (46:52):
Jesse and Holly. This is your last chance to share
closing faults, feelings, or final bits of evidence with the pattern.

Speaker 5 (47:00):
So I have one last bit of evidence from our
dossier to play now for the panel.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
Our executive producer Jasmine J. T. Green interviewing Alex or
talk Bazar, who wrote the music for the series. So
it's a conversation between the two of them, and the
first voice you hear is Alex's voice.

Speaker 9 (47:16):
Right.

Speaker 18 (47:17):
I've been thinking a lot about this whole quest for
Bruce as queer icon. Bruce isn't my queer icon. That
doesn't mean that Bruce can't be a queer icon. There's
a lot of like white women in the halls of
queer iconography, and who's picking those icons?

Speaker 8 (47:37):
Right?

Speaker 18 (47:37):
It's been a lot of like the male.

Speaker 19 (47:39):
Gaze, See what you did there?

Speaker 18 (47:43):
So have Bruce right? Like, Bruce isn't for me, But
because Bruce brusted for this concept that I was running
from already that other people were running two. I was
living in this idea of macho that was kind of
like held on a pedestal, and Bruce was occupying a
space that was manly but not overly mocho, and it's

(48:06):
felt like kind of attainable. But I think also for
me growing up a boy in New Jersey, it was
sort of like dangerously alluring that you could just you
could just be like Bruce and you could just keep
guying out. As far as I understand, before this project,

(48:27):
Bruce Springsteen the Boss was not a part of your life.

Speaker 19 (48:33):
Absolutely not.

Speaker 18 (48:34):
Okay, So now fast forward to you're suddenly helping make
a podcast about Bruce, and you're presumably listening to a
lot of Bruce.

Speaker 19 (48:44):
Now, so it's funny, like now my streaming algorithm is
starting to recommend Bruce songs and I'm like, this a
little man, This a little man got some.

Speaker 4 (49:04):
I get it.

Speaker 19 (49:05):
I absolutely get it. I absolutely get it. I'm like,
I'm like crying thinking about it, like it's they're bops.
They're absolutely bops, I must say, and like they contain
like a different context to me.

Speaker 18 (49:16):
Now, so you just said, I guess that you you
kind of implicitly recognized Bruce as queer icon. Do you
do you think that Bruce is a queer icon?

Speaker 19 (49:27):
I am thoroughly convinced that he is, in fact a
queer icon. I think I feel in the same way
for you as in, like, he's not my queer icon,
but there are things that I can recognize.

Speaker 3 (49:43):
Does the panel accept these additional pieces of evidence?

Speaker 6 (49:46):
Yeah, I mean I do.

Speaker 8 (49:48):
I'm happy to accept this evidence. You know, it's the
last minute the court will enter the evidence.

Speaker 3 (49:57):
Perfect. The serious and legitimate peer review panel have heard
all of Jesse and Holly's evidence, and it is now
their time to share if they agree that Bruce Springsteen
is a queer icon. That's after the break, we are back.

(50:23):
I'm James Cunningham, and this is because the boss belongs
to us. Seeing if this isn't actually a scientific study,
I don't have to be a neutral adjudicator, so I'm
going to have my say too. I think that queerness
is a personal expression of oneself and as a bucket,
it's of your own filling and is intensely individual. And

(50:45):
so I think if you know, this kind of Americana
persona stands as an icon for people who are oppressed
and marginalized and you know, trying to piece their way
out of themselves to something greater than like where are
we to stop it? And I also think that anybody

(51:05):
who can look that good in an ecker chief, some
cut off down them jacket and some tight tight jeans,
you know, deserves definitely a point on the board too.

Speaker 2 (51:14):
I think it's interesting that you describe queenness is like
there is like a very kind of individual version to
everyone's definition of queerness. And there's a very individual listic
thing around like queer icons and putting people on these pedestals.
But something that Holly and I have learned, I guess
across the series is also like, ultimately, the best thing
that happened that from all of Bruce Springsteen is that

(51:35):
we found community through that, Like we've found people and
the things that we care about ultimately, like the things
that bring us together.

Speaker 3 (51:46):
And so it's time for our queer icon experts final
decision on whether Bruce Springsteen is a queer icon. So
the panel you may answer yes or no. You may
also answer yes, but with some suggest revisions to the
study Zekia Gibbons.

Speaker 6 (52:03):
So you know, like I said, I still have yet
to really listen to a Bruce song, so I feel
like I cannot claim him as my queer icon. But
you know, after you know, having listened to the show,
after listening to y'all's arguments, hearing you know, other people's

(52:25):
experiences and views on Bruce, I can't deny other people's feelings.
If he is a queer icon to them, then he is.
But I also just listen to it, I'm like, oh,
these arguments are landing for me like I see it.
But does he feel like a queer icon to me?
Not yet, because I need to listen to his music.

(52:46):
But like I said before, he is giving baby Girl,
so he he upgraded. He upgraded from me having zero
opinions on him to being like, oh my god, Bruce
is baby Girl, like I buck with them, and so
check in with me in a few months after I've
listened to some songs, and I'll probably be standing him
as a queer icon as well.

Speaker 3 (53:11):
You let me.

Speaker 7 (53:12):
It's funny because I came into this thinking, no, he's
not a queer icon, and I say that as a
queer fan. But then as I've listened to the evidence,
there's clearly everything's there. He is camp, but then people
who love his camp love it with an intensity and
a sincerity that goes far beyond, which I think is
like the main point that makes a queer icon. And
he does ruefully underdog even if he himself is a millionaire,

(53:35):
and he can dance to his music and talk to
his music. So I've checked on my minds. I think that
he is a queer icon, although he's still not my
queer icon. I'm just a queer fan. But I also
think that Joel was right Earlies. This isn't really a
subject to scientific study. This is a matter of theology.
You either believe in the Boss or you don't. No

(53:56):
amount of sort of persuasive argument can change you one
word the other. Feed it in your heart or you
don't fit it in your heart. We don't really need
a scientists or physicists for this. You lead up a priest.

Speaker 2 (54:06):
What I'm hearing from you, h is that we've successfully
managed to get us a gear into the cult.

Speaker 6 (54:12):
I would say I in terms of cult, I have
like one arm in the sleeve of the cult cloak.
I pad with some music. I will probably slip my
other arm in and I'll be fully darning the Bruce
Bringsen cult cloak.

Speaker 5 (54:31):
Next time we see you, you're going to be in
that denim cloak.

Speaker 6 (54:34):
Yes, then club, Now that I know it's Denham, maybe
I'll yeah, I'll wear it even sooner it would be Denham.

Speaker 7 (54:43):
Everyone wants to start somewhere.

Speaker 3 (54:46):
You can't start a fire.

Speaker 5 (54:47):
Oh amen to that.

Speaker 3 (54:54):
And finally, Joel Taylor, it really.

Speaker 13 (54:58):
Really really just agreeing with everything you were you were suggesting.
But h, Yes, the revision. I accept that.

Speaker 8 (55:11):
Is your queer. Yes, he's your queer, not mine.

Speaker 4 (55:19):
Thank you so so much, Bun.

Speaker 5 (55:22):
That was so amazing and not as scary as I
thought it was going to be.

Speaker 4 (55:36):
That was so good.

Speaker 5 (55:40):
Oh man, I think I'm still shaking. I was really scared.
I was really nervous. That felt that felt terrifying.

Speaker 3 (55:48):
Yeah, we I truly.

Speaker 2 (55:50):
I kept being like we did this to ourselves, like
we we chose to be tested in this world.

Speaker 5 (55:54):
But now I'm thinking maybe I should do a pH d.

Speaker 4 (55:58):
Maybe that's next. It will make a bean, I really thought.

Speaker 5 (56:04):
I mean Joelle, who knew at the last moment. Actually,
to be fair, I think all of them. Up until
about halfway through, I thought.

Speaker 4 (56:12):
There's no chance.

Speaker 5 (56:13):
Yeah, there are so many people that run from that
element of masculinity, like everything that Bruce represents. Why would
we want to them celebrate that?

Speaker 2 (56:22):
But I thought it was so beautiful what Alex said
about like that is a thing in that final bit
of evidence of being like this, like new and playful relationships.
Mascultee is something that some queer people run towards and
some people are running from, and that just shows like
simply whoops, you can't imaginize queer people.

Speaker 5 (56:39):
But Joelle, like very very early on, just like Hammered
does with you know, should we be doing this, like
why not members of our own queer community? What's difference
between queer icons and gacons? And we went through that
on the depression bench in episode four. We really interrogated
our feelings on that. But of course that was something
that Joel's going to question as all totally because it
needs to be asked. I think if anybody else did

(56:59):
this again, you have to ask those questions. And also
you have to feel pretty shit about it.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
You just have to.

Speaker 5 (57:06):
Feel really anxious and depressed about it.

Speaker 2 (57:15):
Okay, thank you everyone so much for listening to because
the bus belongs to us.

Speaker 4 (57:21):
You heard it here first.

Speaker 5 (57:22):
Bruce Brinstein is a queer icon because he's our queer icon. Yeah,
so anyway, to be honest, we just did this because
we love Bruce and we love to love things too much.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
This has allowed us to connect to so many queer
Bruce fans. There's so many of us out there slowly
infiltrating the queer community with our Bruce loving ways.

Speaker 5 (57:43):
And regardless of what evidence we have, Bruce just is
our queer icon, at least for now, because he's important
to us and.

Speaker 4 (57:51):
Now it's time to say goodbye. Holly.

Speaker 2 (57:57):
Climbing is a town full pleasers, and we're pulling out
of here.

Speaker 4 (58:01):
To win.

Speaker 5 (58:28):
Because the boss belongs to us. Is a production of
Malton Hart and iHeart Podcasts. We're hosted by Jesse Lawson
and Holly Cassio.

Speaker 2 (58:36):
The series is executive produced by Jesse and Holly and
created by Jesse Lawson.

Speaker 5 (58:41):
This episode was produced and sound designed by Jesse Lawson,
with production assistants by Tess Hazel. Michelle maclum is our
mix engineer.

Speaker 2 (58:49):
Our original music and theme is by Talk Bazaar at
Talk v A z A R Underscore. Our show art
was designed and illustrated by Holly Cassio at Holly c
A s i O.

Speaker 5 (59:00):
Executive producer from Malton Hart is Jasmine J. T.

Speaker 15 (59:02):
Green.

Speaker 5 (59:03):
Our executive producer from iHeart Podcast is Lindy Hoffman.

Speaker 2 (59:07):
A reminder that our friends have released six absolutely stunning
Bruce covers to celebrate the series, Fight Milk, The Sheridans,
coy O, Day, mus Ghost, Daskinsey four and Command Jasmine.
There's a link in our show notes for the Queer
Springsteen playlist listen there.

Speaker 5 (59:24):
Thank you so much for the special people who've supported
us while making the series. Lauren Passel, Arlie Ablinton, James Cunningham,
Fen Williams, Kyle Gibbons, Beth Elden, Kerr, Oriel Wiles, Alana
Cumbier for inspiring our name and bringing us.

Speaker 2 (59:37):
Together, Phil Roberts for buying me my first gay brucene.

Speaker 5 (59:40):
And all of our friends and family who have put
up with us obsessively talking about Bruce forever and listen
to so much springs in against their will. It's not
going to stop, guys, just because the podcast's.

Speaker 3 (59:50):
Over and when more.

Speaker 2 (59:52):
Little shout out to the val Halla Suite, which is
a free plugin for audio nerdes and has been used
so much throughout the series. On my website, I have
a list of resources for people interested in getting into audio.

Speaker 4 (01:00:03):
I'll link it in the show notes.

Speaker 5 (01:00:05):
For more Queer Bruce content from us, check out my
scenes at Colschmall dot com and follow Drag King Butch
Sprinksteen at Butch Sprinksteen Underscore Drag.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
I'm at Jesse lu Dawson and Holly is at Holly
Cassio on socials stay in touch.

Speaker 4 (01:00:18):
You've not heard the last from us. Bye bye bye

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}7. The Verdict