Ep. 79: Chuck Sucks At Steelhead Fishing

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Greetings from the California Delta, where you would still suck
at fishing. And the guy just tossed in a selfie
of him giving Troy the finger and he says with
a chuckle, Harley doesn't own boots. And I was like, oh, no,
you're gonna freeze your ass off today. My name is
Hayden Samac and I admit it, I have a problem.

(00:26):
Rest assured. I've never met a captain who like just
thinks it's funny as ship when you and your boys
come out and get hammered you. Good morning to generate anglers,
and welcome to Ben the fishing podcast that still hasn't
figured out that Doc Martins don't really qualify as good
winter boots. I'm Joe Surmelli and I'm Hayden Santa. Can
please tell me like I would love to see you

(00:47):
just like plunking around, you know, but like one of
those big clowns shoot Doc Martins, like the ones with
a giant viber like soul and like the like the
red kind of tint on him, like like a straight
edge kid. A are is not who there for their
first right edge kids. No, they're not there for anybody
who wants to wear them. Um, you can't see that
anymore at least, Um, but that used to be me.

(01:09):
I'd say you Now, I just wear Velcrow sketchers. Um,
but I did wear docks for a very long time,
all through high school pretty much because while you know,
like my Navy polo shirt and Khaki said he's a
good Catholic schoolboy, my boots said, my mom got me
these Doc Martin's for Christmas because they're mad expensive. So um, yeah,
that was a long time ago. So so like it

(01:31):
was a little bit of a nod to uh to
a rebellious streak then, I mean, like you kind of
it was like kind of download rebellion, very subdued rebellion. Well,
shoes were the only thing you were allowed to select
for yourself in Catholic school, so you know, you do
what you gotta do. But it also it always made
me wonder, right, like Doc Martin's were they super cheap

(01:51):
at some point because like, while mine we're always like
shining and new, the guys and Rancid's were beat to
death and there by cool. But it's some point like
they just went to Hot Topic to buy a pair
to right, like they were new and shiny at some point, well,
well they were cheaper when before doc you know, completed
his PhD and he was still missed the Martin. But

(02:14):
have have you ever kind of noticed it's like like
almost the opposite and fishing like nowadays, I feel well
worn is not in Like everyone wants to have all
this the new ship on all the time, like they
want to look like they just kind of stepped out
of the catalog and onto the water. It's like a
flex you know. Yeah, no, I and I I agree
for the most part. Like I can give you a

(02:35):
prime example, like I have, Um, I have a pair
of SIMS waiters that look like they've been fed through
a garbage disposal and like they smell even worse, but
they do not leak their their comfy as shit. Uh,
and therefore they're my preferred pair, despite the fact that
I have five other pairs and they're they're so gross
that I've actually had buddies at SIMS. Be like, can

(02:55):
you please stop wearing that pair of waiters in public?
Which I don't get because it's like it's a testament
to the quality of the product. Um, but guess what, Sims,
you don't make that model anymore. Right, Like they don't
make that that particular pair waiters anymore. I could go
down the street and take it up with them, Well
I could, I could, Yeah, we can both take it
up with him. Dude. No, they've they've been like they've

(03:16):
given me new waiters. I'm like, thanks, but I still
like this old beat pair. But anyway, every single time
I post a photo in those waiters, someone is like,
dear God, get him some new waiters. And I'm like, why,
you know what I mean, It's like it's like they're
so comfy, they're so good. Well, I mean, like there
are some accessories when it comes to fishing that like

(03:38):
you just don't really need to upgrade unless there's something
catastrophically wrong with them. And I mean this bar is
like major jumps in like technological evolution. Like for instance,
everybody was wearing like, you know, the Neopreme waiters and
then you know the breathable you know, Gorgonet, and so
now everybody wears those, and that's like an obvious transition
you might make. I can relate to this in my

(04:00):
waiting boots, man, I was rocking like this pair of
ll Bean waiting boots. I think the ll bean I
had since high school. I mean the things were literally
coming apart, you know. They were like the vinyl was
flaking off, and it was revealing that kind of like
a sub floor like carpeting kind of texture that's under him.

(04:22):
And I wore those things for I ship you not
fifteen years and just recently I upgraded to a pair
of Sims waiting boots only because I was like, man,
these things are so much, so much lighter, right, yeah,
I mean like necessity is one thing that things do
get worn out to the point of no return, But
I mean I've also just seen it get get kind

(04:43):
of ridiculous, um, you know again, like with jackets and
waiters and such. Like. Another example, I have an Aqua
Skins dry top that I used to wear when I
surf fished a lot more, and uh, in the early
two thousand's, Aqua Skins was like the king dog of
sexual sexual Like leave it in, I'm gonna start that over.

(05:05):
Another example, I have an Aqua Skins dry top that
I used to wear when I surfished a lot more,
and in the early two thousand's Aqua Skins was like
the king dog of technical surfishing. Apparel um, and they
no longer are. In fact, I'm not even sure that
they're that that company is around anymore. Um. But it was.
This is like a really well made, expensive top and

(05:27):
it's still fully functional. But in the year two, if
I showed up in Montalk wearing it, I I'd feel
like I'd I'd be labeled an instant Google just because
I was still wearing that old dry top, you know
what I mean? Like I hate that ship because it's
not the latest and greatest whatever. Um, But something's good
and well made, I will use it to death. That

(05:47):
goes for rods and reels too, And I'd be willing
to bet tons of you listening right now own a
rod that you love that the company doesn't make anymore. Um.
There have been some for me over the years. I've
begged people at these are companies to bring back certain
series over the years. You know, yeah, you know what
you see It happen with bows a lot, sure, right.

(06:09):
I always wait like two years or so after like
a drastically new innovation has been made to buy like
that new model, because by then, you know, there's always
gonna be like some sort of like kink in it.
You know there's gonna be something that's like not exactly right,
so you want to give them that like year or
two until they mess it up. But if you have

(06:31):
a favorite old school rod that's been tried and true,
maybe like like an ORBS Superfine or something like that, Um,
you know, definitely get one of those in the fly
fishing realm. If they no longer make your favorite like
spin casting rod, I have an alternative suggestion for you,
something that I think might even be preferable. Yes, yes,
we'd point you towards our beloved sponsors thirteen Fishing and

(06:54):
tell you to check out their line of rods, which
has been with them since they're being getting so so
nine years. The omen has been around. It was their
flagship model, and I gotta say I'm genuinely a big fan.
I have a pile of them, and it's it's tough
to find like such a such a selection of models
within a series, um, and such a well made stick,

(07:14):
no lie for the you know, for in that dollar range.
So something to think about as we inch or crawl
towards open water. Angling spring is somewhere out there on
the horizon. I'd like to think, you know, yeah, well,
you know it is somewhere on the horizon, but I
don't think it's as close as you might think, Joe,
which is why we're staying firmly planned it on the

(07:36):
ice for this week's Smooth Move. I know we are
spring is uh yeah, it's still a ways out there. Yes,
we're staying on the ice and we're joined this week
by an old buddy of mine from New Hampshire, that
being Tim Moore. Now, Smooth Moves is our segment dedicated
to letting guides and Captain's bitch about dumb things clients
have done. And let's just say, well, Tim doesn't care
if you show up in a ripped Burton parka over

(07:57):
an Anthrax T shirt to hit the ice. He probably
would not be down with you showing up in Doc
Marton's why so joining us for Smooth Moves today, old
buddy man I haven't seen in a while. I'm seeing
him digitally now. It's been a few years. Tim more

(08:18):
of Tim Moore outdoors up in New Hampshire. What's going on, dude?
How you been I'm good man. It's good to see
your face. I think the last time we saw each
other was an IE cast. Yeah, yeah, you're right. And
the last time I saw you on the ice, we
didn't see anybody's faces because it was so insanely bitterly
cold today, Like we literally had our heads wrapped in
animal pelts. It was brutal. That was That was a

(08:39):
White Perch video shoot, and I remember that being extremely cold,
extremely cold. Yeah, that was a stressful one for me.
Why was that, I'm not priving to this conversation. Oh boy, yeah,
what was one of those? Like Tim was on it
and then we got there and like ship got all
screwed up with the water, which tends to happen to me. Um.

(09:00):
I also have recollections of like sort of sneaking through
backyards to access ice places because the places we wanted
to get home where no. Boy, Now, like there was
a lot of not frozen areas, as I recall, it was, yeah,
a fair amount of open water for February. Yeah. Yeah,
But for anybody who doesn't know, so Lake Winnipissauke, that's
the biggest lake in New Hampshire, right, the second largest

(09:20):
lake in New England. Ah see that there you go.
I don't even know all those fun facts, but we
got together for White Perch which is kind of like
a little bit of a maligned species throughout the rest
of the country, like they exist in a lot of places,
but Winnie is known for giants. I mean they're like
they're damn near stripers. So we remember, we struggled for
a few days, but then that that second day magic hour,

(09:42):
like right at dark, I've never seen a screen. The
screen was just solid colors and just for a half hour.
You couldn't get a jig down there fast enough and
they brawl. That was a lot of fun um. But
you do a lot of other stuff up there. I
know Hayden is excited to talk to you. He just
called his first bourbon or cuss as you would call
him out there, and he says, well, Tim, give me

(10:03):
all his cusk secrets. And I said, well, I don't
know how much cusk fishing Tim does, but here's your chance, Hayden.
What do you got? Well, it's more I guess what
Tim's got for me? Man, What do you got? Tim
just just starts spilling secrets. Man. That doesn't have to
be in any particular order. State record, new state record
fell up there not long ago, right two weeks ago.
Two weeks ago, I don't remember how many pounds it was,

(10:28):
but it was like fifteen or sixteen pounds. It's big five.
I've caught thirty inches and they're just like you lift
them up and they just keep coming, keep coming, keep coming.
I think those fish are just so darn cool. I mean,
for one, it looks like, I don't know how familiar
you are with first light, but it looks like they're
in that first light cipher camo pattern. And I think

(10:51):
they're like totally beautiful fish, and they're everything I like
about catfish without like everything I don't. I e like,
basically just like those crazy as spines that they have. Man,
they're super voracious, like they taste great. Man. To me,
that is just like a pinnacle game fish. I love
those things. Yeah, they're they're fun to catch. And the colors.

(11:12):
You can catch one that's like really drab and brown,
and then the next one will have this like the
brightest yellow spots all over it, like snakeheads, man, same deal.
Some are like super copper and some are just like
black snakeheads whatever, the bourbon whatever they I called him
a game fish a minute ago. I think it was

(11:33):
like Minnesota or Michigan. Somewhere just classified bourbon is like
game fish, you know, off the rough fish Minnesota. I
think Minnesota they have the International el Pout Festival. Actually,
I have so many friends that fish form out there
that I've started calling an eel pout without even realizing it.
And my name. Actual buddies are like their cusk, Dude.

(11:53):
I've been sleeping out for him on the ice man.
That is so fun. Tim just wants to go to
his home take a hot shower. Yeah, anyway, So remind me, man,
how many years now you've been guiding professionally and you
do do open water as well, so everybody knows that
year around full time. Um, next week will be sixteen years. Nice,
six years full time, so you know, you know you

(12:16):
listen to events, so you know what smooth moves is about. Um,
I don't know. If we're going hard water open water,
the floor is completely yours. Man, give us give us
the most memorable the one year still scratching your head
about over the years. That one is probably one that
every one of my clients since has heard. And it's
it's hard water. I mean, I probably have dozens of

(12:37):
of not so smooth moves that I've done, but I've
successfully managed to manipulate somebody else into taking the blame
for him, right, I don't even remember. Yeah, yeah, so
it was it was ice fishing. Actually I met these
guys at the same parking lot that I met you
the first day that we fished. He was side note

(12:58):
to that real quick, just so people can get a visual,
Like you had one snow machine and our our butt.
Jim Fee, who's been on this show a bunch, was
there and like you basically pulled him in a tiny
sled behind us, and it was bitterly cold, and I
just remember looking back and just seeing Jim bundled up
in like a like the little sled down For the

(13:19):
first day, it was just that was the problem was
that it rained so like we were literally walking in
ten inches of water on top of that ice all day.
It was just it was crazy. And then and then
that afternoon, as soon as the rain stopped, the wind
came and that water was skimming over before we could
get off of it. Oh dude, the tent was collapsed
in the shop was collapsing around us. It was something else.

(13:42):
So anyway, so that parking lot, let's go back to
that park, Yeah, so Jason and Harley. Jason was he's
as like three tattoo shops in the areas a tattoo.
He decided to bring his shop helper Harley. And so
I meet them, and I've known Jason for a long
time and he they get out of the car and
we say hello and do our you know, exchange pleasantries

(14:03):
and all that, and to look down and Harley, Harley's
wearing Converse all Stars low tops, and I with with
with every ounce of hope that you could ever imagine.
I said, Harley, don't forget your boots, praying to God
that they were in the car like he just Jason
locked it prematurely or something. And he says, with a chuckle,

(14:26):
Harley doesn't own boots. And I was like, oh no,
And I said, you're going to freeze your ass off today,
and he said, I'll be fine. This this is what
I wear all all winter walking around town. I'll be fine.
And I said, Harley, I guarantee you that fine, that
that is the very last time today you'll use that word.

(14:49):
Is fine? Is gonna be so far out of your
vocabulary that you're you're I said, but there is a
word that I'll use later on, and I'll let you
know when I when when I it's time for your
new nickname an our And I look over and he's
standing on one leg and I said, switching them up?
I said, hey, Flamingo, how many times did you switched?

(15:09):
Said four? And I said you got this was I
used to do eight hour trips. I do six now
I said, you don't have seven hours more to go?
Oh yeah, so what so did how? How did did
he did he make it? Did he made made it
till noon? And then did you guys have to bail
on the trip because he was wearing sneakers pretty much? Yeah,

(15:31):
I mean they were they weren't fishermen, so they were
like ready to go at noon anyway, But Hardy was hurting.
There's nothing that will knock out a fishing trip quicker
than like, uh, like a lack of proper footwear. I mean,
I've seen, like I I it's actually conformed to philosophy
that I have about pretty much any outdoor pursuit. Right,

(15:52):
It's like you can buy really expensive rise, you buy
really expensive you know, guns, flashers, this that and the
other thing. Ultimately, like what is going to contribute to
your success The most in pretty much any outdoor pursuit
is being properly like outfitted as far as your retire
goes to be able to like stay in the pocket

(16:15):
like for the entirety, however long you want to do it.
This is this is one of the reasons why, Um,
I get invited on a lot of open boats. You know,
Captain self will be like, hey, man, if you want
to get out, I got open boat. I have had
some similar experiences where a day has been cut short
because you don't know who the guys on the open
boat are and if one of them is somebody's buddies,

(16:35):
cousin or whoever. Um, it's a long story to tell
me about. Tell it sometime. But I got a chance
to fish with Captain Frank Mundus, who was the inspiration
for Captain Quinn, on his original boat, the Cricket. And
there was a gentleman on board who was wearing a
Hawaiian shirt and the shortest shorts I've ever seen. And
it was raining sideways in June and like fifty six

(16:57):
degrees and rough as shit, and we ultimately never got
to wet a line. I never actually got to put
a line in the water. With Frank because that dude
was so shot and sick and freezing that we had
to turn around. I could only imagine like Joe's murderous
rage in that moment. It's actually hanging out with it.
It's a great story. But I I sympathize with that.

(17:19):
So so I mean, I imagine, you know, um so
so note to self. Then you don't provide ice fishing
clothes for clients. You don't have extra stuff, So that's
on you. And there when they have to go to
the ice fishing page on my website to book their trip,
and there is a whole list of what to bring,
what should I bring? And and I couldn't stress like

(17:42):
I think. It says, good boots, good boots, good boots.
Your feet will get cold first and stay called the longest.
If you think wearing hiking boots is gonna be okay,
you're wrong. And they wear hiking boots all the time.
Hiking boots, hiking boots and under armour, under arms, great stuff.
It's not good to fishing if you're moving. Under arms
great stuff. If you're moving, it's not so good when

(18:03):
you're when you're sitting still out here, like you know,
everybody wears muck boots everybody for everything. Everybody always has
neo pre knee highs. But like out Eastern, like the Midwest,
I feel like that's like not the case man. I
feel like the muck boot is underappreciated. Yeah, there's a
bit of a following muck boot wears out here. But

(18:26):
you go on any like New Hampshire Facebook fishing group
and you'll see posts, you know, what are the best boots,
and there's five choices of people that insist that they
wear the best boots. But I mean, you gotta at
least have to try hiking boots. I don't even consider
that trying. No, So you're like laceless is like number one. Yeah, yeah,

(18:47):
well what's your boot of choice? Man? I mean, so
what matters most? Thickness of the soul. Like I've always
been told that like soul thickness is helpful on the ice,
right would agree? Some loft clam makes a really nice
It's probably the most comfortable rubber boot of every warren.
And it's warm, it's removable liners and there's a lot
of loft into them. So air dead air is probably
the best, you know, installation that you can have. If

(19:09):
you took nothing else away from this, you now have
a recommendation on what kinds of boots will get you
through a day with Tim Moore on Lake Winni Kasaki, Yep.
I had a lot of regular clients that wear those
sub zero X boots from Clam those guys, those sneaker guys.
Ever come back? No, no, Well maybe I will see
you this winner. Man. I would love to come up

(19:30):
there and catch a bigger cusk. Then Hayden's caught out
in Montana. They're gonna get there together. Who knows? You
guys are both experts. I'm an expert in a lot
of things, Joe, I'm an expert in no things. Joe,
tell you what low top Chucks might be a poor
choice on the ice. But the but the high top

(19:52):
ones in the in the classic off white color were
the original flats booties. Did you know that? In fact,
I know dudes that still wear them for that. It
makes a lot of sense. Man. Like I was when
I was a kid, I used to do a lot
of like you know, just mucking around and creeks and
stuff like that, and I those were my preferred shoe
with choice. I mean it happened that it coincided with

(20:15):
my EMO phase, so I did have a lot of
high top Chucks on hand. But you know, we're gonna
bring up your EMO phase again later by the way. Yeah, well, anyway,
they may make sense because those flat booties come up
high to protect you know, the backs or ankles from
sting rays and ship you know. Yeah, though ironically the
economics have kind of reversed. Like there was a time
I think when chucks were dirt cheap, and like early

(20:38):
early versions of flats booties were expensive. Now it's the
other way around, sadly, right, Like high top Chucks, because
I looked, are significantly more money than a pair of
near preen flats boots. So well, that's like kind of
the confluence of inflation and fashion trends, two topics you
might expect to be covered by legitimate news source, which
we are not. So who the all knows what we're

(21:00):
gonna talk about in this week's edition of fish News.
Fish News that escalated quickly. Before we jump in here,
I gotta give a quick shout out if I may
to listener Chad Mason for an email he sent. Now.
The subject line of Chad's email was simply, oh god, rule.

(21:21):
Now we've got to bring this up because this is
too funny, dude, come on and in it. Here's here's
what Chad suggests. He writes, how bad if we aim
to get the yeah man total down to know more
than two per podcast, that seems like an achievable goal.
It's a yeah man rate, like he did math, that
would annoy only the most annal retentive listeners, who shouldn't

(21:42):
be allowed to set the bar. But if Hayden get
there by April first, here's the rule. He has to
get assault Life tattoo in a highly visible look. There
is absolutely no way. But I love how he combines
the yeah man thing with you way back openly admit
that you you'd pretty much get any tattoo, which is

(22:02):
like a little cajol ng Yeah. I mean like when
when I said I'd pretty much get any tattoo, I
meant like, um, you know, like excluding like a I
you did say you'd be open to a brand. You

(22:22):
mentioned getting a first idea. I was joking. I was joking, man,
yeah man, Salt Life dude. You know now listen, I
would not know no, Chad, thank you. It is funny
I would never let you get us, I say, yeah man,
in that response, I think I might have. You might have.
Don't to play it back, Yeah man, salt life, dude,

(22:47):
time for tattoos? Are you sure it's life with like
a y like that? Why don't you shut up my job?
Um no, but I could not let you do that.
I would never I would never allow that. So uh,
funny idea. But no, that's not gonna wait, No, that
can't happen. Like no, I like you too much. Oh

(23:09):
thanks man, thank you. Well. Anyway, look, hey, I got
an idea. Whoever loses this week has to get a
yeah man tattoo on his upper RICKI no. Also, it's
hard for me. I don't look cool anyway. Remember, folks,
this is fishing news. This is a competition. Joe and
I do not know which news story the other guys

(23:31):
bringing to the table, and at the end of it,
our audio engineer Phil Taylor will decide who wins and
whether that yeah man tattoo has to have barbed wire
or tribal accents around Joe, it is your lead, man,
what do you I'd go? I go full barbed wire. Um. Yeah,
so let's see, this is one of those weeks that
produced a lot of great fishing stories, lots to pick from.

(23:53):
So I'm extremely glad that it is my my lead
this week, and I didn't have to grapple that much
because it's my lead, because I knew this afforded the
opportunity to cover what might be the greatest fish news
story we've ever had. Um A ton of you guys
sent this along, so finally now we can all get
together and talk about Troy. So Troy, Troy, whose last

(24:15):
name is is not known, but that's for the better.
That's fine. Troy is from Minnesota and uh he and
a group of his buddies frequently get together to fish
both open water and on the ice, same group of dudes.
Another member of that group, by the way, goes by Chappie,
which instantly tells me he's a good time. And then
there's group member David V. Now prayer the story about

(24:35):
this on in forum dot com. It's extremely common for
Troy to catch nothing when he goes fishing, but I
would like to point out that does, not, however, make
him a gooch. So we've talked a lot about the
beach on this show. A gooch. You remember the gooch.
I'm gonna explain. I'm gonna re explain the gooch here,

(24:56):
so it'll fill you in because we've talked about the
gooch on this show and see already you're going sexual
body parts and that's not what it is at all. Well, yeah,
you should have you were listening before you got here. Anyway, Anyway,
to be to be a goucher, as we've said, your
presence alone needs to ruin everybody's good time. You have

(25:16):
to be the bringer of wind and rain or your
aura by itself just has to stop everyone else from
catching fish. That's what a goucher is. So like you're
the guy that just brings the fishing down. Okay, but
that's not Troy. He's not the gooch because everyone else
on these trips is apparently successful. In fact, in this story,
David recalls a trip where Chappie had tied one on

(25:37):
pretty good the night before wound up sleeping in the
boat for most of the following day. Troy had caught
nothing that day, and suddenly, uh in the afternoon, Chappie
rouses for just a brief moment out of his his
hangover stupor, just in time to see his bober go
down and he catches a fish. Right, So I don't
even I don't even know these guys, but I love

(25:59):
these guys because group has their version of Troy, and
and Troy is necessary to keep ball busting levels up
to you know, too proper levels and banner constant um.
So he basically fills the role that I do here. Yes, correct,
that is right, bing um. But what seems to have
unfolded in this group is a is a game of

(26:20):
ball busting one upsmanship. So they always gave each other
a hard time, right as long as they've been fishing together.
But Troy leveled it up not long ago by hiring
Christopher McDonald, the actor who is obviously best known for
playing Shooter McGavin in Happy Gilmore on Cameo. He hired
him to record this video message, you guys really think

(26:44):
you're gonna beat Troy on your ice fishing trip this year?
That's Christopher McDonald of Happy Gilmore fame. Troy arranged this
personalized message. I just want to say that cameo is
one of the best inventions of like, oh it is
recent times. In fact, one time, my buddy dropped an
album that he had been working on for quite some time,

(27:07):
and I hired Chris Hanson of To Catch a Predator
to review his album Nice. My brother in law sent
a valentine, had iced Tea sent a Valentine to my
sister in law, freaking iced tea. I'm like, wow, I'm
gonna see if I can find that video review man

(27:35):
William Brown. Why does that name sounds so lyrically familiar?
William Chris Hanson Here Hanson versus petitors and to Catch
Repetitor William Gonna need you to have a seat right
over there. I've been going through some transcripts and I
see where you just released a single called Birthday Punches.
I took a listen pretty good. Good luck with that anyway.

(28:00):
Good luck with that. I'll be watching and listening. Please
know that head wishes you all the best as well.
Take care. I'll show you on the TVA cameo. I've
never used cameo, but it's kind of cool anyway. So

(28:21):
Troy had McDonald shoot that video and he just sent
it around to the group to bust balls, and David said, okay,
hold my beer and answered that by taking out ad
space on a massive led billboard up near Brainerd, Minnesota,
which is a super fishy town. Right. All the ad
featured and this is like a big highway billboard was

(28:44):
a giant photo of Troy and the words Troy sucks
at fishing. Now closer, man, I did see this, and
this is it wasn't your lead. You knew I was taking.
I thought I thought that it could have been the
olden crapy, but I I realized now that it could
only have been this. It could only have been you, Troy. Well,

(29:06):
there were there were better story and I don't know
what you grab, but they're like there were like there
were like some serious winds in Colorado stream access this
week and that's like a major thing in Colorado. Awesome,
And I'm so sorry, but like Troy sucks at fishing
billboard just like scroll, I'm sorry, I have to do this,
like this is like the greatest this is the greatest thing.
Um So anyway, David and company, they could have stopped

(29:28):
there with just that billboard that said Troy sucks at fishing,
but nay, they went the extra mile to have the
Troy sucks at fishing text change flash over to talk
smack to him at Troy sucks too. At gmail dot com.
And I mean that's just a straight bravo. I mean bravo,

(29:50):
But I had to know a little more. You know,
we're going to draft up an email as soon as
we get done this podcast, right, I already beat you
to it because I wanted answers to a few questions
not covered in the news reports. So I tracked David
down and reached out to him right now. First and foremost,
I was curious about the financials of this one upsmanship, right,

(30:12):
and I learned that to get Shooter McGavin to send
you a cameo video that will cost you two and
twenty dollars, which is pretty spendy. And props to Troy
because he made the first move there, like he made
the first move, but um an ad on the giant
led billboard. Well, surprisingly that only costs David two so

(30:33):
so so technically he won in terms of the spend,
but not by much. But I have to give it
the round to David, because while the Shooter McGavin video
like that's good, it's only shared among the group, whereas
David spent about the same amount of money for full
public humiliation. So like his round like that's David's round. Um. Now,
mind you, this only happened last week, right, but David

(30:57):
told me that the Troy Sucks Gmail has already sieved
over three messages from as far away as Costa Rica, Australia,
and Sweden. He's gotten loads from Canada and emails from
pretty much every state in the Union. Uh. Now he
forwarded me, at my request, a handful of these emails,
and and most are as you'd expect, pretty jovial and

(31:19):
just jokey um. As an example, one says your mate
has pumped you bad, looking forward to your reply. I
suck at fishing too, Regards from Ballina, Australia. Um. Another
another reads greetings from the California Delta, where you would
still suck at fishing. And the guy just tossed in
a selfie of him giving Troy the finger. Um, you know,

(31:39):
and he was. He was naturally inundated with memes. But
my favorite one, uh just had the subject line I'll
fish with you, but the message just read that guy,
so it was home gamut, whole whole gamut. Right. Uh so, Hey,
congratulations to all parts involved, Troy included, because this is

(32:01):
great and it leaves me wondering though, Troy, how are
you going to top that? Like people are now expecting
you to come back bigger and batter, and I got
to I gotta tell you, I wasn't necessarily planning on
watching the super Bowl, but now I'm going to just
in case there's like a halftime commercial about David v
sucking at fishing starring Troy. I mean, that is, in

(32:22):
my opinion, really the only honorable response. Now, listeners, if
I'm sure you know this, Joe and I live in
separate parts of the country. Yes, I am in Bozeman
and we are recording this podcast via video chat right now. Now, Joe,
you might have noticed that I was looking down on
my phone just then. Yes, uh, Listeners, on my Instagram story,

(32:46):
you are going to find a a a photo of
this billboard and it is going to have a poll beneath,
and the poll will be requesting comments that we can
send to Troy. I will be aggregating a group email.
If you feel like being on that email, respond to
the poll with your comment to Troy, and I will

(33:07):
make damn sure that it gets to him. Please enter
your password. You have one unheard message for the FOPS
facers so I'm going to pot fresh. I'm not sure

(33:29):
why I'm having so much trouble using stamps to purchase
fresh Poka. Please call Bob. End of message, delete press
seven save deleted. Alright, Joe, So this week on fish News,
we are we're gonna go back to the European coast

(33:50):
and talk about something way less fun than a billboard
ragging on your buddy or a group of Irish fishermen
out gaming war gaming Russians. Um uh So. I originally
saw this on Inside or So that's my original source there,
although I've I've picked up bits and pieces from other
online publications, some of which I've now bought subscriptions to.

(34:12):
So thank you meat Eater anyhow. Dude, quick thing about that,
if you if you just keep changing browsers like a
million times, eventually you'll get beyond the paywall. Sounds like
I owe you money again, Meat Eater anyhow, don't support journalism.
We wouldn't want to do that, all right. So look,
this past Thursday, it emerged that the second largest fishing

(34:34):
vessel in the world, the f V Margaris, lost or
dumped a massive catch of fish, depending on who you ask.
The fish in question were blue whiting uh, type of
cod most often used for fish sticks and other commercial
fish products like you know, like cod oil and fish meal.
Estimates put the number of lost fish somewhere in the

(34:55):
range of one hundred thousand fishes. It's a lot of
a lot of count now now I said, uh, lost
or dumped, because there are varying accounts of how all
these dead fish ended up floating off the coast of France.
So from my understanding of it, the first group of
folks to bring this to global attention was the controversial

(35:16):
conservation group Sea Shepherd If. Yeah, if you don't know uh,
if somehow you don't know about Sea Shepherd um, they're
widely considered a group of extremists, even by the standards
of like other conservationists. In fact, as reported by the BBC,
in two thousand and twelve, the Ninth Circuit of Appeals
issued an injunction forbidding vessels in the Sea Shepherd Fleet

(35:40):
from approaching within five hundred meters of any Japanese whaling vessels,
citing the Sea Shepherd fleets use of often violent tactics
UH in their anti whaling efforts. Japan has at least
at some point labeled the Sea Shepherd crew is eco terrorists,
and in that injunction I just mentioned the judge just
flat out called them pirates and told them to mind

(36:01):
their own damn business. Okay, so that's the Sea Shepherd folks.
All that said, The c Shepherd folks are the people
who first bought this to light. Uh. Now, Joe, do
you think they're on the lost it or dumped it side?
Mm hmm, I'll go with dumped at Alex you would
be correct. So the Sea Shepherd contends that the one

(36:21):
thousand blue whiting were actually by catch and dumped it
sea in order to save the f V Margaret's uh
the trouble of having to go to port and declare
by catch as required by the EU law. On the
flip side of this, we have the narrative as according
to the definitely not financially invested Pelagic Freezer Trawler Association,

(36:42):
who just happened to represent the Dutch company that owns
the mark gears uh and contend that the fish were
not dumped, but rather the net broke due to the
presence of abnormally large blue whiting overwhelming what they call
the cod end of the nets and What they mean
by that is like not like an unusually law large catch,
but like the individual sizes of these like specimens like

(37:05):
these were on an individual basis very large blue whiting. Anyhow,
So a real quick lesson on this type of fishing vessel.
The margaris is a a midwater pelagic trawler. When people
hear trawler, for whatever reason, they immediately think of something
like dragging up the bottom, and that's not what this is.
It's a pelagic trawler, so it targets fish above the

(37:28):
sea floor with these like giant ass nets. In the
case of this vessel, um these nets are nearly a
mile long. Um also a it's what it's what's called
a freezer trawler, which is basically a fishing vessel capable
of processing it's catch at sea. And we actually touched
on this a while back in uh in that cod
story I I did about the about the cod fisheries

(37:50):
off the coast of Maine. Um. Yeah, heart of the
decline of that fishery was related to the advent of
these ultra efficient fishing vessels, and there are a bill
need to fish harder and longer. Anyhow, the p f
A put out as the Freezer Trawler Association UH put
out a statement. I'm a member, put out a statement

(38:12):
saying that, yeah, that this event was due to an
unusually large catch, basically breaking the net. So which is it?
It would seem as if the c Shepherd folks make
a half decent argument in that going back to Port
to declare by cash would be a huge pain for
the Margearis and ultimately cost the vessel like just just

(38:32):
a ton of money. Sure now that I mean, yeah, exactly, Yeah,
I mean there's there's financials at play here. I'm sure
right now that line of thinking makes for a compelling argument,
except when you consider the blue whiting is a target species.
The p f A points out that the Marghearis has
a quota for blue whiting and that it makes no
sense to dump a valuable fish. I'll mention that in

(38:54):
everything I've read, there hasn't been a suggestion of, like,
what more desirable fish the fishing vessel may have dumped
their catch up blue whiting in order to make room
for you know, it's not like they were like, oh yeah,
I mean they ran into this school of ship with
like their of blue whiting with their net down. Well,
so they're a freezer trawler. So they lost that that net,

(39:15):
that's what they're saying. And then what was in the hold?
What what did they have? Goes to mention that It
doesn't mention that I or at least not in anything
that that that I saw. Um So look, the reason
I picked the story is it kind of you have
two factions of folks, right, You have like the Shepherd,

(39:36):
you know, inclined folks who are like everything that happens
is like an environmental disaster. And then you have the other,
uh you know, hard line stand which comes from like
the commercial fishing industry that goes, well, no, actually we
didn't do anything wrong, and this is like a huge
loss for us. It just kind of highlights the danger
of like picking one side and like digging your heels

(39:57):
and on it. You know what I mean. I do
know what you mean. I think you know you're talking
about a middle ground here in commercial fishing. I don't
because they're ever going to be peace, love and harmony here.
I don't because every recreational angler and uh you know,
environmental group like c Shepherd will always believe that the
commercial fleet is not on the up and up. I
mean there's pages of data, there's associations governing both sides

(40:20):
of this, But I mean, I don't think there's ever
gonna be a win there. You know, anytime something something
that that you want, you know you can't have. I'll
use flounder as an example. Well, it's very hard to
catch keeper flounder in Jersey now and the you know,
the limit is very small, and that really hurt the
recreational fishing community. Right, But if you ask any devoted

(40:42):
flounder fisherman, like, what's the problem, that's God's goddamned draggers.
That's right where you go. That's right where you go,
even though there's regulations on those guys that we assume
are being followed, and they'll tell you they are, and
everybody else will tell you they won't. So like, if
you're looking for like the shangri la where everybody's happy,
it's very clear that all the commercial operations are doing
exactly what they're supposed to do, and those things also

(41:06):
match what environmental and recreational groups want to see. I
don't know if that ever exists. Sucks, but I don't
I don't think that's ever going to exist. Right, Well,
this is basically like the latest installment of that fight.
And uh, you know, it's something that I thought was
worth bringing to folks attention. So anyway, that's basically what
happened to C. Shepherd is like, these guys are bad

(41:26):
fish dumpers and the Polagic Freezer Troller Association is now
paying their pr guide double and uh Frances, uh Frances
looking into the issue. Well France, they come from France.
They'll let us know what happens there. Um yeah, man,
it's tough deal. You hate to see any fish wasted.
But if who's right, who's wrong? No way to answer
that question. Their net may have broke. Ship happens. Ship

(41:47):
breaks all the time on boats. God knows, I know
it because I've had many boats and something is always broken. Anyway,
Uh Phil, commercial commercial fishing, travesties or Troy who sucks it?
Probably commercial fishing as well as recreational fishing. Uh let
us know. We're gonna hear from Phil. He's gonna judge us.
And then when we're done with that, we're gonna do

(42:07):
a fin clips, which we haven't done in a while.
Um on on, oh yeah, you're right, Phil did the
last finclips. It's gonna be It's gonna be on Hayden's
current favorite fish, so we'll we'll listen to that, and
then as soon as he catches something else he hasn't
caught before, we'll have another fin clips on his new
favorite fish. Joe, you do not suck at fish News.

(42:32):
You're the winner this week, I believe it or not.
I actually met Chris Hansen once. It was a little
awkward at first, but after he told me to put
down the ziema and to take a seat, you know,
he actually had a pretty eye opening conversation. He told
me I should have gone with a smear knof Ice
or Bartels and James, and you know, God damn it,
he was right. He was right. I've recently become obsessed

(42:56):
with a fish. I've been pouring over studies in why
everything from academic lectures to YouTube catch and cooks. I've
been fishing for them as much as my free time allows,
like camping on the ice the last three weekends in
a row, falling asleep with my flasher on and hoping
I'll wake to the sound of bells jingling on the
end of my dead stick. I've probably bought a thousand

(43:19):
dollars worth of gear between tip ups, jigs, shelters, a
negative degrees sleeping bag which really is in a negive
degree sleeping bag, um, a buddy heater, and I couldn't
even tell you what else. My name is Hayden Samac
and I admit it, I have a problem. My girlfriend
would agree. The object of my obsession is a fish

(43:39):
by many names h lawyer, eel, pout, cusk, and scientifically
load of load to, but you might know them best
as bourbon. A bourbon is the only fresh water gataform
meaning cod like fish, and it thrives in cold water
lakes and rivers. There are circumpolar species endemic around the
world above forty parallel. What makes them so interesting to

(44:03):
me is their uniqueness. These fish are singular when it
comes to many facets of their existence. Let's start with
their physicality. The bourbon truly looks unlike any other freshwater
species of fish. For starters, they have a singular barble
at the base of their chin, which is actually where
they get their common name of bourbon. You know, barble bourbon. Uh.

(44:24):
They're a long, cylindrical fish with no noticeable scales excepting
the largest specimens, and even then it's mostly around their head. Additionally,
many bourbon have this beautiful modeled pattern, and as you
heard me mentioned to Tim a little earlier, it reminds
me a lot of the first lighth cipher Camo pattern.
Bourbon are also some of the only fish that communicate

(44:47):
with sound, using muscles around their swim bladder to make
percussive noises. Bourbon are truly nocturnal and come up from
their deep water daytime haunts into the shallows to spawn
and feed at night. Speaking of spawning, bourbon are unique
in that they spawn in the dead of winter, mostly
under ice. Besides the timing, their method of spawning is
a little unique. As broadcast spawners, they congregate into balls

(45:11):
of writhing fish which some folks call mating balls, and
release milt and eggs into the water that hopefully fertilize
and land safely in the substrate, where they'll incubate and
hatch into larval bourbon. Aside from my admiration of the
fish itself, what I really like about bourbon is catching them. Uh.
In my own limited understanding of bourbon fishing, you know,

(45:31):
I'm still new at this. Most of it is done
through the ice. I like to set tip ups in
ten to twenty ft of water with a number six
trouble hook egg sinker and a short twenty pound floral
leader for bait I like chunk sucker um. I've also
had luck jigging for bourbon with a heavy one ounce
glowing jig with a glowing tube or grub and a

(45:51):
piece of sucker meat. Uh. Folks make bourbon specific jigs
known as pound pounders to catch them, which are which
are basically heavy glowing araddling jigging spoons, and a lot
of folks fishing into great effect should you catch them.
I found bourbon to be delicious. Their flesh, in my opinion,
is just about the best tasting of any freshwater species

(46:11):
I've ever had. Their livers, which comprise ten percent of
their body weight, are perfect for making patte. I made
one the other day, and Steve Rinella, the man himself,
told me it was among the best things he'd ever eat.
I'd have to agree, although I'm not sure it had
as much to do with my culinary prowess so much
as the deliciousness of the primary ingredient, the bourbon. So

(46:33):
there you have it. And Neophyte's description of a bourbon
and catching them. I'll be fishing for them, admiring them,
and eating them as often as possible going forward. And
while I was very pleased indeed to catch my first
walleye the other day, I think bourbons are sincerely my
new favorite fish. Post him if you got him. We'd
love to see photos of you with your personal best bourbon,

(46:53):
So make sure to throw those up on the old
Instagram and use the Degenerate Angler and Bent podcast hashtags,
and if you want to hear us sing the praises
of your favorite fish, right to Bent at the Meat
Eater dot com with your nomination. So first, I think
we can put bourbon to bed for a while now
it's getting almost as annoying as my snakeheads. But I

(47:15):
gotta bring something up. Right. You went out the other
night bourbon fishing with our colleague Sam Longgren, Right, yes,
okay at Sam posted a picture of you on a
ground pad in your sleeping bag, holding a nice bourbon.
And I didn't really think anything the shot like nothing,
nothing struck me really, um, but you you happen to
have some wicked hat hair in that photo that kind

(47:40):
of gave you like the swooping sideways Emo bangs, and
listener Chad Camp wrote in and said that you look
like someone whose dad took him to see the Black Parade,
and I was, and I was like, O MG, was
that of my chemical romance reference? Bravo, Chad. I not

(48:00):
have done better myself. It's so ironic, though, because I
think people think you're high, which you aren't, and now
they think you're an emo kid, which maybe you had
a phase, but I really like that's not really your
jam now, Like that's not what you're listening. I had
a straight up emo kid phase, man, and you did.
Oh yeah, man? It started. Uh. It started with me
coming from a like like it wasn't like a Catholic school,

(48:22):
but it was where you'd wear like uniforms and stuff.
And then I went right into like our public school
system after like that grade school kind of ended. It
ended at sixth grade, and I had a wicked crush
on this chicken Nicole and I just remember being like,
all right, I'm going to be emo now because it
seems like that's where this girl lay so okay, So

(48:44):
I committed. Man. I had like I had like a
little piece of my hair dyed red and ship oh
good for you. So you're you're, You're. My dad took
me to get it died. My dad took me to
get it died. So we didn't take me to the
Black Parade, but he took me to like the Red Salon.
I guess that's so okay, there's there's an age gap
between us. So then like who was your band during

(49:05):
that phase? Like, like who was the big deal in
the you not you not? It was my Chemical Romance
they used scared me? Okay, all right, well then before
you Helena is still a great song. Helene is a
pretty good song. I'll give him. I'll give him Helena.
Quick story though, right my high school band headlined a

(49:27):
show in Jersey that My Chemical Romance opened, and it
was ship no true story. It was their first show ever,
and we were like dorks. Look at these nerds, freaking
whiney chumps. They're singing about their feelings like not masturbation
and drinking mad dog like we do like the cool
kids do. Yeah, anyway, if y'all got any of that

(49:49):
Black Parade money's still kicking around, you know, you can
help out a fishing brother my Chemical Romance. But yeah, dude,
that's a that's true story. Uh, speaking which, how about
we help a They're out this week in our own
way with a new edition of the bent Helpline. What
do you laughing at, Martini? You're not an idiot, you're
not a gamblony hell boy, you're a fisherman. Best, what's

(50:15):
your emergency? So welcome to the bent Helpline, where we
read or I guess play if you're sending it in
an audio file, your listener questions and then Joe and
I do our best to answer them. Uh. This week
we got a question from Kinger eleven eighty six, whose
question is simply, why can't I get a goddamn steelhead

(50:38):
to bite? I'm going absolutely mad? Now, Hayden chose this question.
By the way, I want to preface it with that,
don't you preface before I preface. I heard you about
to say preface. Oh don't don't double preface me. I'm
going to preface it by by saying, if you're a
West Coast dude, I can't really help you based I think,

(51:00):
but you're coming up against in that fishery is a
declining at least if you're talking about wild fish. As
we touched on there like plenty of rivers that have
hatchery fish, but if you're fishing for wild steel head um,
the numbers are not good and swinging flies is hard. Bro.
You know, like like that. That's that's basically Can we

(51:21):
can we be totally open and honest with our listeners
about this question? Can we do that? Maybe? I don't know,
it depends. My first question when you suggested this question
was is he a West Coast guy or an East
Coast guy? Like an East Coast guy right? And I
was like, how do you know? And you were like,
because I feel it just looking at him, he's an
East Coast guy. So yeah, I mean, neither one of

(51:41):
us are experts in west side steel um. So if
that's if that's what you're trying to catch, uh, let
us know and we could point you to some experts
in that arena. But and if you're more interested in
East coast steel, let us know that and help me
prove my point to Joe that folks asking this question
are fishing the Great Lakes. You're probably right. I'm not.

(52:02):
I'm not on that because people know that that we
both love Great Lakes steel. I just think it's funny
because I'm like that's very open ended and we don't
know where he's from. Um, I'll tell you what the
real question here, Like, the real variable is if he's talking, uh,
fly or spin. Now, you have probably done more spin
fishing for steelhead than I have. And while I don't
think that I've done more fly fishing for steelhead than

(52:25):
you have, it is still something that I feel very
confident speaking towards. So why don't you take the lead
and give him some spin advice and then I'll follow
you up with my take on fly fishing for him.
Well that's fine, but I'm going to take a different
approach because I think because of the lack of information
we have here on on on how he's trying to
target these fish and where he's trying to target these fish.

(52:46):
Like anytime somebody's like I'm really having trouble catching this
or I want to catch bigger these, Um, the simplest
piece of advice is get out there and target them
as much as you possibly can, Like, no matter what
you are trying to fish for, if you are struggling,
because again, dude, it's it's hard without knowing, Like what

(53:08):
did you go once last year? Did you go fifteen
times like even if you don't really know what you're doing,
the more you go, the more you'll figure it out,
which will ultimately lead to catching more and bigger fish.
So um, you know in in in terms of spinning, Um,
well you're really quick. And you know something I want

(53:29):
to tack onto that is you gotta be careful of
like what kind of media you're consuming and what where
It originated when I was first getting into Steelhead. It
was actually a bus drive like my my like school
bus driver is the one who really fostered that interest.
Man that that dude was great. His name was Tony Spagnola.
He used to give me all sorts of fly tying
material that he wasn't using anymore, all sort of like

(53:52):
stacks of magazines from like the nineties that were just
like that dude was awesome. Thank you Tony publicly. Um.
But one thing that he also gave me was a
a VHS copy of um Ship. I forget what like
the movie was called. It was that Lonnie Waller, No,

(54:13):
Lonnie Waller is like a very famous you know, uh
West Coast steel header And he had this one video
I think it was on the babbying where he was
catching all sorts of steel and like throwing like waking
flies for him and picking them up off the surface,
and like that was my introduction. Is steelhead fishing that said,
not super applicable in uh in the Great Lakes fisheries.

(54:36):
So one thing that I would be very cognizant of
is where your steel head information is coming from. If
you're an East Coast dude and you're taking in a
bunch of like West Coast media, that's going to kind
of skew your perspective on steel head fishing, and it
might give you might be arming yourself with techniques that
aren't super applicable. Yeah, it also varies quite a bit

(54:57):
within the East Coast fishery. As an example, like, um,
the Grand River in Ohio, beautiful river. I've only ever
fished it once, and I fished it in the fall
during a road trip, you know, across the Great Lakes
to hit all these steel rivers in one shot, and
we struggled. We had one really nice fish, but we struggled,
and then come to find out later I've had a
lot of people tell me, well, actually the Grand fish

(55:20):
is better in spring than it does in fall in winter, right,
But yet thirty miles down the road on the Ashtabulah
or whatever. It's the it's the complete opposite. So it
really can vary, and and it's it's hard to break down. Um,
you know a lot of this into specifics. But what
I can tell you, whether it's fly or spinning, like

(55:43):
one thing I've always been taught. Um, you know, I've
always tend to steal head fish in the colder months.
And everybody wants to swing, right, even the Great Lakes
guys like, oh man, I want to swing one. I
want to swing one up, And that doesn't necessarily mean
a fly like I know people who target them with
inline spinners swinging been with Yeah, sure, exactly right. Um,

(56:05):
but that has a very as I've always been told,
a very small window, like once that water gets much
below like forty degrees, it becomes very hard to get
one a true swing. Now, backtrolling is a different story.
That's because that's not really swinging, but true swinging across

(56:27):
the run, aggressive fish charges over eats lower or fly.
There's a very small window. So like, no matter how
you're fishing, keep that in mind. It once that water
gets gets cold, everything now becomes slow and you bounce
that ship right off their face. It doesn't matter if
it's an egg sac or an egg fly or a nymph,
Like it becomes a slower presentation. Yeah, I'd also like

(56:51):
pay attention to when you were going after him, because
steel head, I've noticed or like a I mean this
is a widely held observation, steal it or like a
fickle fish man. If you've got like a front coming
in or you're in the middle of like a cold
snap or something like that, and like the only reason
the water isn't frozen is because it's moving. A lot
of times that can spell like you know, frustrating day

(57:14):
on the water. That said, if you're like trying to
pick your spot and you notice that you know the
what it's, you're gonna be in a warm spell right,
like one of those, Like my favorite steel head fishing
is like a mid February warm spell where the water
just bumps up two or three degrees and all of
a sudden it's on fire. I pay very close attention

(57:35):
to that. Now, that's like a conditions based thing, on
a technique based thing. Um, I think that you'd be
the first thing that I would look at is your
weight Uh, the steel I like relate to the bottom heavily,
particularly when it's cold, right, which is when most people
are fishing for him. Anyhow, a lot of times you're

(57:59):
going to run into problems if you are not using
enough weight. You really need to like get the fly
down there. Forget like the really pretty space cast, forget
your snap tea and ship. If you're just trying to
catch one man, I would chuck and duck man, I
would I would chuck and duck. I always figure if
I didn't lose at least ten flies in a session,
I wasn't doing it right. Yeah, Like it is super common,

(58:21):
at least on the Salmon River where I've done most
of my steel heading. That's where I've done most of money. Yeah, dude,
Like you know the drill. Then it's like if you
get if you get ten clean drifts and your ship
comes back and you didn't hang up and bust off,
you're like, wow, must be my birthday, Like like you
are constantly breaking off, Like that is all part of it. Yeah.

(58:42):
I would also suggest going for um. You know a
lot of times in these major Great Lake steelhead fisheries,
you'll see people fishing a lot of like super sparkly ship,
whether that's like the crystal meth fly or like giant
stas eggs. And I personally have never had particularly good
luck fishing that way. Most of what I've been fishing

(59:02):
is stuff from my trout box, you know, size, you know,
there's nothing wrong with fishing the four teen pheasant tail,
particularly with like a beadhead. Maybe you want a little
like hot spot or like a popa blue on it.
I think is like a real popular thing to do.
But I tend to like, uh like flies like that. Yeah,
I see, I I take a slightly different approach. I don't.

(59:25):
I feel like maybe I don't give the fish as
much credit as you do, especially in the winter when
you know their hold up. I just keep changing ship
and like it's like, oh they're on pink, Oh they're not.
Now I'll just go to yellow. Ope, got another one,
Like it's just something different. Um, And that's not necessarily
you know, doesn't necessarily happen that way all the time.

(59:47):
But um, I mean that's the other thing too. Without
knowing exactly which river he's fishing and what he's looking for,
I mean, come on, dude, especially on a weekend, all
winter long. You want to know if they're steel heading
in particular hole question one, is anybody else fishing it?
If yes, they're probably steelhead there. So once they get
concentrated in the winter, once they're in that winter pattern,

(01:00:08):
it's very common. How many times you have you gone
up there and it's like whack, wrack, whack. At first light,
it's like a whole and boom gone, just a little
sunlight comes up. They didn't go anywhere. They're still right there,
but like that was their feed window. So again, this
is all this all stuff you learned just by you know,
doing it for a long time and pounding a lot

(01:00:29):
of water. Yeah, yeah, And uh. The the other thing
that I would, you know, advise our listener to do
is don't think of them so much. Is I mean,
they are, but like, don't think of him so much
as giant rainbow trout and fish them in the same
way that you might fish rainbow trout. What I look
for is um a lot of like frog water, like
where you might expect to find a brown trout, perhaps

(01:00:52):
you know, on on the inside edges of those seams
where you have like you know, you have a run
coming down and it hits the bank real hard, and
you'd be like, Oh, they're gonna be in that like
deep cut in this seam on like the far side
of that bank. A lot of times that's not where
I find him. I find him on the inside of
that seam, where like it kind of like eddies out

(01:01:13):
a little bit. And it's a lot of times when
you hear as you hear people talking about a walking speed,
like if the water is moving at a walking speed,
that might be where steel head hangs out. And and
I've noticed that that is, uh, that's true. The other thing, um,
you know, as far as like reading the water, uh,
and like the actual like river condition goes, is what

(01:01:34):
time the year you're fishing for him? Where they One
of the most frustrating experiences I ever had was in
the beginning of the pandemic. I took I took a
girlfriend steelhead fishing, and I was just hammering the spots
where I'd catch them all winter long and nothing was happening, Like,
in fact, we we hooked a couple smell like we're

(01:01:54):
not smell um, what the do you call them? Baby fish?
Smolt host the fishing podcast Folks One Letter Off, And
I was like, what the hell is going on? And
I called my guide buddy and he was like, well, dude,
have you ever been up here in the spring? I
was like, you know what, I haven't. He was like, well,

(01:02:15):
go to like the gravel. Yeah, and so so I went.
I went over to the gravel and we started like
hooking a bunch of fishing. It was awesome. So you
gotta keep in mind what time of year you're fishing.
If you're fishing early in the fall, they're gonna be
in those runs behind salmon. If you're fishing in the winter,
they're gonna be in that frog water. And if you're
fishing in the spring and for dropbacks, they're gonna be

(01:02:36):
on those gravel bars where they're spawning or where they've
just spawned. And if that hasn't helped you, join us
next week for chapter two. Yeah. Alright, well, uh, king
are eleven eighty six. Thank you for sending that question
in and I hope that was helpful, although I'm sure
you are just more confused. Uh. If you want to

(01:03:01):
if you want to have your question answered on air,
or if you want to send a voice memo and
hear yourself on air, UH, you can get that to
us at Bent at the meat Eator dot com. Or
you can maybe slide into Joe or my d M
s on the old Instagram. So that's it for this
week kind of sort of. Maybe there's a little clue

(01:03:24):
for you. See how many people pick up on that. Anyway,
thanks again to Tim More for dropping by. Hopefully I'll
see him this winner and uh maybe stick a bigger
bourbon than you and talk about it for weeks on end. Yeah,
well you won't, man, you won't because uh, you know
I do a lot of night fishing. Oh there's another
tip for you. Um, I'm calling it out. I'm also

(01:03:46):
calling you guys to keep sending those sale bent items,
bar nominations, helpline questions, and awkward photos to Bent at
the meat Eator dot com. Yes, please keep doing that,
and keep using those degenerate angler and Bent podcast hashtags
which try to put eyes on every single one of those.
And finally, when you've worn out those docks on the
ice or those chucks on the flats, do the right thing.

(01:04:07):
Tie the laces together and throw them over a power line.
Hipster kids that don't fish need something to photograph. M hm. Alright, folks,

(01:05:02):
if you've if you stuck around this long, we have
a little something extra for you. Since we started the
bent Helpline. Uh, you know, we've got a ton of
great listener questions, so many in fact, that we can't
answer them all. So Joe and I decided that we'd
make like a little bonus track. Yeah, we've done this
before a while ago. We had a bonus sage Lee
Wisdom Hidden Track all a tool CD from the nineties,

(01:05:25):
and it seemed to work well. So this is a
good idea. Um, and yeah, every now and again, like
here and there, we're gonna drop this little segment that
we're calling night Fishing after the outro and extend the
party just a little longer. So crack a buckskin, sinking
to that lawn chair and watch your globe bobbers, because
it's time to go night fishing. So listener, Zack Mahollock,

(01:05:45):
that's uh at Zack Underscore maholic on the Instagram wants
to know this is a fun one. He says, solo
trips can be fun, but how do you get your
fishing buddy to stop canceling? Last minute? Boy? I can
speak to this one man like it's like the bane
of that was like the bane of my early fishing existence.

(01:06:06):
Because the guys I'm sure like you and a lot
of like folks listening can relate. We're just into it
more than apparently everybody else. Well that's that, and then
that is the truth. I gotta tell you, Um, finding
fishing buddies with the the full fire that you have
if you have said fire, it's not always as easy

(01:06:27):
as you think. Like the most hardcore fishing buddies that
I have, none of them live close to me, like
like they're scattered all over the country, and it's like
such a treat to get together. But and this is
not this is not certainly not shipping on anybody that
I fish with regularly. It's just a matter of like
you know, family life and stuff like. There's not a
lot of other dudes that have the schedule I have

(01:06:49):
where I can sneak out Wednesday morning if I wanted to,
you know, um, and I will push aside all obligations
on a weekend to go fish for something. Not everybody
can do that. It's just it just is what it is. Um.
But this, this, this question certainly resonates with me because
I also have some of those people that they are
notorious for that and what I what I've essentially used

(01:07:12):
them for. It's like, let's say I'm going somewhere and
I'm like, it'd be fun to drive up that morning
with somebody and shoot the ship in the car and
grab a sandwich and have some good conversation. So I'll
ask that person, but I've already made up my mind
that if they bail I'm also totally okay going on
the same trip doing the same thing by myself. So

(01:07:32):
it's like a little bonus. I'm like, I'll throw it
out to him. Chances are he's going to bail out
the night before, but it's not gonna stop me from
doing what I want to do. So like, that's not
the dude you ask when you want to float eight miles,
you know what I mean? Like that's like your battles. Yeah,
that's like you're dedicated, you know, mission buddy. I would

(01:07:52):
call them mission buddies, and then I would call them
like trip buddies exactly, Like the trip buddy is like
inclined to be like yeah, man, well you know I
was going to but um, you know, my my buddy,
they're going to have like this like party for whatever whatever,
and like I so I I don't think I can
make it anymore, and I'm always just left like how

(01:08:13):
could you man? Already? Yeah, I mean it is that,
but it's but it's also like, how could you like
to do anything more than this? There is no party
that I would attend over. I don't know, like, yeah,
you know, over the chance to do this Joe a
little bit of nice fish. There's no party. I have

(01:08:36):
missed funerals over the years. Um, there's no there's no
football game, there's no sports event on the planet zero zero.
Ship's going down during the super Bowl. I'm there. I
love I love fishing like during like big sporting events,
because you know that there's gonna be half as much pressure.
Hot tip exactly. Anyhow, I would just a just a

(01:08:58):
gun gun anyway. I I would get uh, I would
get a new fishing buddy for like missions, man, And
I would chalk it up to like, if you want
to take friends fishing sometimes, just realize that, like it's
going to fall through a lot, man. I don't think
there's too much that you can do about it except
find folks that are equally dedicated. And in that case,

(01:09:20):
I would invite them to stuff that you already have
very well planned. Right, there are two types. There's like
the impromptu thing, and then there's like the well planned thing.
And I would I would invest more energy into trips
further out with people you know are going to be
down then, like you know, hoping that your fishing buddy

(01:09:40):
shows up. Yeah, yeah, I would totally agree, find new
friends or just call that guy when it's a trip
that like he would enhance the trip slightly, but not
enough to make you cancel. If he can't go there,
you go. Okay, So, Zach Malac, thank you for that one. Um. Now,
friend of Bent, Nathan clump At Nathan does activities on

(01:10:04):
the old Instant Slam wants to know if we've ever
gone noodling. No, no, no, no, that's a that's negative.
People have been trying to get me to go noodling
for years now. I know people that noodle, um, but
that is a that is a hard note for me,
does not appeal to me at all. Yeah. No, nobody

(01:10:24):
has ever invited me noodling. Although when I was a kid,
I had a friend whose dad like mercilessly made fun
of me because I thought it was ca noodling catfish
and noodle that's a German dumpling, I believe. I think
it's uh. I think it's more of a cliquialism for
love making. But the god, I hate that guy. You know.

(01:10:48):
If that dude's listening, man, you know I hate you. Um.
But yeah, I guess short answer there is no and
I have no desire to Joe. It's yeah, yeah, and
it's a little bit twofold. Like honestly, I bow fish
every once in a while. I think that's fun. But
otherwise I've just never gotten eaten up with any methods

(01:11:12):
beyond rotten reel. Like I'm not into spear fishing. Get
nothing against it, It's just I'm not into that. So
on one level, it doesn't appeal to me because I
would just rather catch them on a rotten reel. And
even though I have some very good friends that are
hardcore noodlers that are like, look, man, I've been doing
this ship for twenty years. I've never had my hand
taken off by a beaver or a snapping turtle. Like
that's a myth. It doesn't happen. I'm like, I understand.

(01:11:34):
It's like the same odds as dying in a commercial
airline crash. But I have that kind of luck, dude,
Like if I will commit to it and the first
log I stick my hand in, I'll lose like my
pinky and my ring finger. It is almost guarantee easier
thing to do. Just not do that because I'm not
excited about it anyway. Um, but great question. So sorry

(01:11:55):
to all the people who are going to try and
convince this the noodle. Now you know that's coming. You
know what I mean? I might be you should do it. Yeah,
you should. I was gonna say you should do Just
just reach out to Hayden. Just don't even bother with me.
Moving on gauge Atwood, which is an awesome name. At
gauge Atwood, He asks, Am I a prick because I
hate bait fishing? I YEA great man. I don't get like,

(01:12:23):
I don't get it when people divide themselves into camps
like I am just as likely. You know, if somebody
hits me up and it's like yo, West branch of
the Delaware Drakes are coming off right now, get up here,
We're gonna get in the boat, down down, let's do it, man. Um.
But if somebody's like yo, let's go like chunk catfish.

(01:12:44):
I'm like, yes, I I do not understand it when
people divide themselves into these like weird camps. Well, and
that's that's really what Ben's been all about, right. We
invite anglers of all walks of life, all factions here.
I'm certainly everybody knows I'm the same way. I'll fish anything.
I I really don't care. And I could go into
a whole tirade about how people look down on bait

(01:13:07):
fishing and if I, if I had more time, I
could totally say some things that, by the end, I
promise would make everybody who thinks bait fishing is simple
and easy look at it completely differently. I don't really
think we have the time for that. But here's what
I'll say. Are you a prick because you hate bait fishing? No,
you're not a prick because at the end of the day,
you know, we always try and preach this message of

(01:13:30):
don't put yourself in a silo, you know what I mean.
But hey, dude, if you're a fly guy and that's
all you ever want to be, rock and roll man,
that's cool and no no love lost. If that's your deal.
So I don't know if you're a prick, but you
are incredibly closed minded, Like you are incredibly closed minded
because I don't know how many I can't say this enough,
Like people miss all the connective tissue routinely between every

(01:13:54):
kind of fishing. In other words, if you spend time
drifting meal worms and garden war for trout and you
get good at that, you not have a leg up
on nymphing and vice versa. There's things you can learn
from one that translate to another. Watching how a fish
attacks a big live shiner under a bobber will teach
you something about what to do with a swim bait. There's,

(01:14:16):
it's there's, it's all connected, and I don't understand why
so few people, I feel like often see that. But
it only makes you better at whatever. The main passion
you have is by being open minded and being willing
to fish a million different ways. That's my that's my opinion. Yeah,
I agree with your wholeheartedly. All right, Um, moving on

(01:14:37):
our buddy, uh Jordan's Derek at Derek the Fancy Caveman
wants to know how drunk is too drunk on a
guided trip? Oh you first? Um, okay, I happen to
know that Joe and I have very different opinions on this.
All that's okay, that's okay. These opinions are good, Yeah,

(01:15:00):
sure are. But um, Joe has kind of swayed me
to his argument, which we'll get to in a minute.
But my initial thoughts on it, and I guess, I
guess something I'd stand by is it really depends on
what you're doing. First off, I want I want to
preface this by saying, whatever you're doing, don't put yourself
in an unsafe situation. Even if you're on a a

(01:15:24):
a a thirty foot you know, party boat in calm seas,
getting blackout drunk around the water is always a bad idea.
It's never a good call, that said. Man. You know,
if you're say you're at a bachelor party and you
guys just want to go catch you know, a handful

(01:15:45):
of mahi mahi, there's nothing wrong with throwing back, you know,
a couple of coronas or something like that, you know,
but don't get don't get drunk to the point that
taking care of you or um part in the pun
like reeling you in becomes an activity for the captain,
the mate, the guide, whatever. I also want to say

(01:16:08):
that there are certain types of trips where I would
not suggest drinking at all. Uh. Those include walking wades, uh,
drift boat trips. I wouldn't get drunk on bone fish flats.
I wouldn't have anything to drink in a lot of scenarios. Man,
if it's contextually appropriate, dude, have like a couple of beers.
But like I would say, don't get drunk to the

(01:16:30):
point that you'd be like above the legal limit, Like
if you would get pulled over, you might be too
drunk to do what you're doing as far as fishing goes, Okay, yeah, man.
And and look, I'm not gonna say don't ever don't
ever have drink when you're fishing. Um because I do.
It's well, yeah, because because I do. But it's it's

(01:16:51):
certain scenarios, you know, a cold beer on a float
trip for small mouth or trout drinking, drinking a cold
beer on the on the on the seventy mile running
after tuna, fishing all day awesome. Otherwise And and some
people would say this is a very Unamerican opinion. Drinking
and fishing do not go together for me, like they
do not go hand in hand like they do for
so many people. I've always been of the opinion of, like,

(01:17:13):
if what I really want to do is drink and
get a load on, I'll go to the bar, or
I'll have a barbecue at my house. And I especially
have never been able to figure it out. I've never
been able to figure it out. Uh, people who get
hammered on charter trips. Now, you in most scenarios you
fish like shit, or you don't fish at all because

(01:17:34):
you end up passed out in a bean bag or whatever.
Some captain now has to deal with you. And you're
paying seven eight hundred, twelve hundred dollars to be there, Like,
what a freaking waste man. And and here's the thing.
I know, a lot of captains in all arenas fly offshore,

(01:17:54):
you name it. I've never heard one of them say,
you know, it was a really good time taking these
guys out yesterday, A and two of them got hammered
and we're thrown like that's why most captains, most captains
I know, it is like zero hard liquor, no flat,
You ain't bringing a bottle. You can bring beers, you
can bring some white claws, whatever you're into, but rest assured.

(01:18:15):
I've never met a captain who like just thinks it's
funny as ship when you and your boys come out
and get hammered. They might not give you a hard time.
They might have you back they need to make money.
But when you leave, no, yeah, nobody's like that, was
that was awesome? No, they want you to catch fish,
not get ship faced. Um. So you know, for me,

(01:18:35):
it's like a beer or two and in a laid
back summer scenario, I will go to the bar and
pound them with you after we fish ice fish. What
I don't give a ship I am. I am about
that man, some chicken wings and a couple of pictures
of beers after the fact. But for me, like with
my family, my dad, my grandfather, nobody that I ever

(01:18:56):
grew up fishing with, was it like a six pack
goes hand in hand with the cat and and and
I find, honestly, man, like I've been doing a bunch
of ice fishing lately. And you know, when you're ice fishing,
like you have a couple of beers. Typically I find
um that said, what I really find is myself opening

(01:19:16):
a couple of beers and then not drinking them because
I I get like so tuned into like the jigging
and stuff. I don't want to stop jigging to like
take like a sip of this beer. And then what
inevitably happens is I have like most of a beer
in a can. I ignore it for an hour and
a half. I come back to it, it is now frozen.
And then so I just pop open another beer and

(01:19:38):
the same thing happens. And now I'm picking up a
whole bunch of you know, two thirds full beers on
the ice when I pick up my stuff to like leave. Yeah, similarly, man,
I I same deal. It's never my beer ever that
gets drunk on a fishing trip because I don't ever
bring it. I'm not asking for it, but it is

(01:19:59):
always in in some downtime. So like, you know, you're
floating the river and dudes like, did its junk water
for the next mile? Just chill. By the way, I
got two beers in the cooler. You want one? Good? Yeah? Sure, yeah,
right on, But like I'm not sipping that between work
and a rising fisher streamer. You know that's all right? Well,
hey look let's let's let's move on, man, And I'm

(01:20:20):
going to spring this on you. We've made Jordan Derek.
We've made Jordan Derek feel bad enough. Um. Now, I
didn't put this one in the queue because I thought
it would elicit some feelings from you. And if you
don't want to do this, we can just cut it
here and I'll edit everything and make it or Phil

(01:20:40):
will edit everything and make it all smooth. John Maloney
one wants to know do you consider Great Lakes steel
head actually a true steel head? Do you want to
open this can of worms? I'll I've opened this can
of worms before I'll answer it. Um, I say yes, No,

(01:21:04):
I say no. Well, well I'm more right than you are, Joe,
and I'm sure. I'm sure we're gonna get a whole
bunch of Listener responds to it. I let's hear your
argument first. It all depends on your definition. Genetically speaking,
Are they genetically the same as a as a West
Coast salt running steelhead trout? Yes, they are same fish

(01:21:26):
on a genetic level. But if if you went back
in time to the dictionary or encyclopedia before all this
this ship started happening, with all these planner fish all over,
the definition of a steel head is a rainbow trout
that leaves fresh water, goes out, lives, eats, and breathe
salt water, and comes back. So if that, if you

(01:21:47):
are accepting that as the definition of a steelhead trout,
then by definition, Great Lakes steel head are not true
steel head. Does it mean they're not awesome? No? Does
it mean that they don't fight as hard as West steel? No?
I mean all that's happening here right is the lake
is the ocean and they run up the trip. So
it's the same They're doing the same thing. But by definition, no,

(01:22:09):
I do not think so. Well. By definition, the new
Oxford American Dictionary defines a steel head as a rainbow
trout of a large migratory variety. So, uh, you're wrong
the Oxford Dictionary. When was that updated? What years? That
is your Oxford Dictionary coming through? Is? I don't know, man,
Well see don't say that, and then it may be like, huh,

(01:22:31):
you're wrong. When was it? When was that? Yeah, it's
on the internet, the internet. What's the Oxford dictionaries anyhow? Like, okay,
so to me, man, you know, people defined it by
the salt. I define it as migratory tendencies. And it's like,
but we would agree that that o g original steel head.

(01:22:52):
Like in the time of Native Americans before any of this,
they ran the saltwater or nothing. That was what a
steel head was. There was no steel head that didn't
run the salt water. Yeah, that's fine, but like you know,
to that uh, you know, to that end, it's like,
do you consider like to me, that would be akin

(01:23:13):
to like considering Atlantics or like coconese not salmon. Well,
there's salmon. In terms of genetics, it's a salmon. It
it is a salmon. So okay, well, like so wouldn't
like a genetic steelhead be a steelhead by that logic,
I think you can go with either definition. Like I said,
genetically speaking that it is a steel head. But you're

(01:23:36):
you're asking. You asked me, and you said, true steel head.
What's a steel like? Aren't rainbow trout in general just
landlocked remnants of like steelhead? Isn't that? Actually? I actually don't.
I actually don't know that. I don't know. I thought
that that's why, um, finding wild rainbow trout only happened

(01:24:00):
west of the Continental Divide, And it was that is
I believe, And it was because rainbow trout were landlocked steelhead.
You know, so so so, but like by that like definition, man,
I I would consider any large rainbow trout that goes

(01:24:20):
out into a large body of water and then returns
to spawn a steelhead. And you know, I get why,
like people are are are drawing lines, and I think
a lot of it has to do with um hatchery sentiment,
like like they people don't want manufactured fishery. It's it's manufactured.

(01:24:43):
Ye's no way around that. But um, I don't know, man,
I think that this argument is do you consider the
Delaware River to be a large body of water? Yeah, well,
well because not not in the not in the same
way that I'm talking uh lakes. It's like a moving

(01:25:04):
body water. I think, like that's like I think that's
like the divider line. It's not like it's not I'm
not talking Yeah, that's not what I'm talking about, man.
I'm not talking about something living in a river and
then going up to a tributary. I'm talking about a a.
I know that the ocean is not a still body
of water, but like I'm I'm talking about like a

(01:25:27):
a you know, a a still tidal body of water.
I know that the Delawarever is titled okay, but get
so in the weeds here. But like I have to,
I have to throw this out there. You got a
reservoir out in North Dakota, I don't know where, full
of giant rainbow trout. When those fish go to spawn,
they're looking for a trip. They're gonna circle the edge.

(01:25:48):
Some reservoirs will have it, some lakes will have it,
some won't. But bye bye, they want to run a
trip to spawn. Well, then I was steel ahead. So
the question that I would ask you would be what
was like the um the breeding stock sourced from? Like

(01:26:10):
are those rainbows or are they like steel head or
or are they like of you know, for instance, like
the Eel River strain of steel head that was like
moved to this area to do this thing. Yeah, I
I I don't know. But also, if I'm not mistaken,
a true steel head does genetically vary from a landlocked

(01:26:32):
rainbow trout. Like, they are features about them that are different.
Their eyes are shaped differently, their eyes look in different directions.
You know what I think that this is. You know what?
I think this is pretty analogous to it's um. The
conversation around grizzly bears and brown bears. Like what separates
those two because like I think, genetically they're identical. The
differences that brown bears have um access to marine resources,

(01:26:57):
i e. Like salmon, And that's why brown rs are
they considered like a separate like subspecies, because they get
so much larger because of this marine resource. And I
think that steelhead it's very much the same thing. It's
like they have access to these you know, uh feed

(01:27:19):
resources that allow them to get bigger, Like you know,
it's not bugs, it's it's it's ale wives, you know,
ship like that. And I think when you couple that
with like the migrating migratory tendencies in this specific way
where they go, you know, it's I think it's different
than the rainbow trout circling the lake. You know. The

(01:27:41):
steelhead are out there and they're doing their thing in
like big open water and then they stage, they they
they they stage in these like groups and then they
make spawning runs. And I don't think rainbow trout do
exactly that same thing even in a lake. Okay, well
we have officially cleared it up, then great Legs steel
head are in fact steel head I don't ever need

(01:28:05):
to talk about this either. We did. We did work
here today. We did. We did, man, Joe, I think
it's like a really fun news segment. Um. I think
it's something our listeners are going to appreciate, and you
know it's it's it really is a nice way to
unwind after a long marathon podcast recording session with you
is just to hang out and shoot the ship a

(01:28:26):
little bit. Totally, totally. Nothing. Nothing helps me on wine
from recording podcasts all day, like recording more pots. So
if you have have questions that you might think are
a are appropriate for night fishing, or questions that you
want to hear on the Bent helpline that might end
up here, make sure you send those to me and Joe.
You can either do it via voice memo or a

(01:28:48):
you know, just a textual written format via our Instagram,
or you could send those into Bent at the meat
Eater dot com

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Ep. 79: Chuck Sucks At Steelhead Fishing

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