May 7, 2024 • 41 mins
Today's episode features Kathryn Valentine specializes in Gendered Negotiation, or how to negotiate successfully as a woman. Sarah and Laura chat about their feelings around negotiation, and then Kathryn joins Laura to discuss ways to negotiate successfully --including some strategies specifically for women, who have been shown to face different challenges in negotiation.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
and speaker.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician,
writer and course creator. We are two working parents who
love our careers and our families.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
We want you to get the most out of life.
Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This
episode is airing in early May of twenty twenty four.
(00:47):
I am going to be interviewing Catherine Valentine, who is
a negotiation expert. So she has lots of great ideas
on how women in particular can negotiate the various things
in life. And you may be wondering why their gendered
advice for how people negotiate, And it turns out that
there's some research that when women use these sort of
exact same techniques that men do, they may sometimes be
(01:10):
judged in a way that they don't wish to be.
So Catherine has studied how women in particular can ask
for things in a way that preserves relationships but most
importantly helps you get what you want. So we're very
excited about this conversation. But in the meantime, Sarah, have
you negotiated anything lately or anything unusual in your life?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Well, I am just so validated already by your introduction here,
and I'm so excited to listen to this interview when
it comes out, because I hate negotiating, and I think
I subconsciously understood that that like generally when I try
to negotiate, it feels bad. I feel like I look bad,
it doesn't come off well. I'm not good at it,
and so my typical behavior is to honestly avoid it.
(01:57):
I don't love to do it. I will say I
did have one recent negotiation that I did. It was
very data driven, like I am getting X, this is
what is really happening. I should get wide why here
are the numbers? And I was able to do it.
So when it's something very clear and obvious, and it
can just be a calm conversation of more like explaining,
(02:18):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Mind it so much.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
But like things like buying a car or sort of
asking for something that's not on the menu at a
given venue, oh my gosh, I really like I can't
stand it. And it actually can be a little bit
of a sticking point between Josh and me where he'll
be like, why don't you just ask? You'll never know
if you don't ask it. I'm like, I don't want
to ask. And so, for example, this is like such
(02:40):
a small thing, but we were both unable to run
the Jacksonville Marathon last December because I had that unfortunate
incident with my car and then Josh got injured last minute,
and on the website it said something like no deferrals.
But he's like, I'm just going to email them anyway
and show them a picture of your injury and just
honestly explain what happened and ask if they could make
an exception and let us run the race next year.
(03:01):
And I'm like, I would never do that. I'm not
doing that. He's like, well, I'm just going to do it.
And the email back and we're like, here you go,
here's a code you can use this next year.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Thanks for letting us know.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
So I mean, I guess he's right, Yeah, it would
have been interesting to send that same email with my name,
Like maybe we wouldn't have gotten it.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
If Sarah Hartugar sent the email, I don't know, probably
we still would have gotten it. Yeah, I didn't want
to ask.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
And if they gave it that solely, like they didn't
ask for a physician report or anything like that, then
I think they probably would have to you as well.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
But You're probably right. It's a small race, and I
think they were just like, that's fine. So I'm very,
very very excited for this guest. Are you a good
negotiator or were you before you had this interview?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
I don't know if I am or not. I mean,
in my life I wind up negotiating a lot of
things just through the nature of running your own business.
On the professional front, I do have people who negotiate
certain things for me, Like I've always had a literary agent,
I've had a speaking agent.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
You know.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Those people actually have always been women, And I think
I think women are well known for negotiating on behalf
of other people, and we've always used like female real
estate agents, you know, anything like that, and I think
that that's a perfectly good choice. Like no one should
think like women are bad at negotiating, so I shouldn't
use professional negotiators who are female, because there's actually some
evidence that when women are negotiating for other people, they
(04:20):
negotiate very very well, which is something to think about.
You know, if you are negotiating, think of yourself as
negotiating for your team, negotiating for your family, and expanding
the pool that it's not just I want something, but
this is benefiting all these other people. Can sometimes be
a lot more motivational that I was thinking back to
(04:42):
a negotiating This is so long ago now, but it
came to mind when we were doing the notes for this.
Was buying my car in twenty eleven. It was a
straightforward sort of negotiating kind of thing. I got bids
from three different dealers around the kind of Philadelphia, New Jersey,
Delaware area, and then I took that number to the
(05:07):
dealer who's ten minutes from us, and I said, can
you match it? And they weren't really thrilled about it.
The word used was aggressive, but as long as I
chose a car from the lot, it was okay. So
I did, and it's been a perfectly fine car and
they've made it up. I've gone there for service for
(05:28):
thirteen years now, so I'm pretty sure that I'm a
loyal customer. Whatever they lost on the initial sale, they
have made it up in terms of oil changes and
the like.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
I'm dying to know if Michael wielding the same offer
would also come off as quote aggressive.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Maybe he sometimes is aggressive, you know, we deal with
that well. So anyway, we're delighted to talk with Catherine
Valentine about negotiation, and we hope that you will come
away from this episode with a few tips that you
can use for negotiations in your life. Well, Sarah and
I are delighted to welcome Catherine Valentine to the program. So, Catherine,
(06:10):
can you introduce yourself to our listeners.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Sure. So, my name is Katherin Valentine. I use research
to help companies advance women, and I have two little
ones as well. I have a four year old and
a six year old, and so I feel like when
I listen to your episodes, I just love how much
we talk about both of these things, whereas I feel
like so much of the other world we talk about
one or the other. And so I'm excited to have
(06:34):
this conversation.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Absolutely, And so the reason we have you on is
that you are a negotiation expert. So maybe you can
tell us how does one become a negotiation expert, or
in your case, how you particularly became a negotiation expert. Ah.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
I think you make all the mistakes in the book first,
and then you decide that you need to really figure
this out. So for me, in particular, I was doing
my MBA internship, which is like a three month job interview,
and a few weeks and I had finished the assign
that they'd given us for the summer, and I decided
that I was going to I wanted to negotiate to
(07:11):
be placed on another team so that I could learn more.
And I spent all weekend preparing for that negotiation. I like,
got the books from Barnes and Noble, and I highlighted
them and I underlined them and I wrote a script.
I tend to over prepare for the things. And so
on Monday morning I went in. Our meeting was at
ten am, and I asked to be assigned to another team.
(07:32):
And by ten oh six it was clear that I
had offended the coordinator in some way. I did not
intend to do that, and by ten ten I was
being told I wasn't a culture fit and therefore there
wouldn't be a future for me at that company, and
so in less time than it took to get a
latte that morning, I completely derailed my career. But I
(07:56):
had a year business school left, so I went back
and I studied what was at that point in time
emerging research on how to negotiate, specifically as a woman.
And what I learned from that year of research is
that one, negotiations gendered, which makes sense when you say it,
but we don't often talk about it as if it is.
We just give advice like the advice is right for everyone. Two.
(08:18):
To that point, most of the advice you would get
if you google, like how do I negotiate is actually
incorrect for women, but it doesn't come with that disclaimer.
And then the third part, which is my favorite part,
is that there is a research proven solution to how
to negotiate more successfully as a woman. It was pioneered
out of Harvard and Carnagie Mellon and then verified by
(08:40):
Georgetown at a bunch of other colleges. And so that
is what I get to do now is bring that
solution to women who can use it to negotiate whatever
it is they want. I think particular to your audience
that would help you achieve the best with both worlds.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, so there's a phrase that you don't get what
you deserve, you get what you negotiate, And it sounds
like when you're talking about negotiation here, particularly what happened
to you, there are some pretty big pitfalls here. So
maybe you could give a little commercial for negotiation in general,
because I think a lot of people do have feelings
(09:19):
that it sounds like a terrible thing that you know,
risks many bad things.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
As you mentioned well to your point, we are at
a higher risk of backlash in gender non congruent negotiations.
So what that means is when men are negotiating flexibility,
they're actually at a higher risk of backlash than women are.
But women are a significantly higher risk of backlash when
they're negotiating all the traditional things, promotions, resources, pay all
(09:45):
of that. The commercial, though, that's not the commercial.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
That's no, no, that was not the commercial. That doesn't
make you want to do it. Let's try the commercial now.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
The commercial though, is that there are significant benefits to negotiating.
I think the one that we're most familiar with usually
is the financial benefit. Right, So a million dollars over
your career, or if you want to think about it differently,
you can work for eight less eight fewer years if
you choose to negotiate the other one though, that I
(10:17):
think is really ignited the research community recently is early
evidence that moms who choose to negotiate workload that can
be a predictor of whether or not they remain in
paid employment. And that is one of those things where
it just starts to open the door for all the
things that we can negotiate, because if you think about it,
(10:37):
if the workplace was not built for us, and so
there isn't necessarily a well beaten path we can go down,
we probably are going to need to make a number
of individual negotiations as the workplace is changing. So when
you think about what group of people could benefit the
most from negotiation skills, it really is working moms. Now.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
I want to make a quick caveat here, though, because
it's not that women can't ask for money, and that
one also shouldn't shy away from people who negotiate professionally
who happen to be women. I wouldn't want people hearing
this to be like, well, I shouldn't hire a female
real estate agent, I shouldn't hire a female talent agent.
(11:22):
I shouldn't hire you know that there are you are
not at a disadvantage necessarily in the market because your
real estate agent is a woman.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
No, Actually, women have better negotiated outcomes when negotiated on
behalf of others than men. So you were at an
advantage if your real estate agent is a woman, or
if you're agent in any way as a woman. That
blush actually happens for women when we're negotiating on behalf
of ourselves. And that's one of the things that you know,
is kind of the problem with if you were to
(11:53):
google how do I negotiate for myself? And that's also
where you know kind of the solution comes in.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Well, let's talk about it a little bit then, because
you said that there is a solution, so maybe we
can get in now, what are some of the negotiation
techniques that maybe are more fruitful for women to pursue.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
So we're in a spot right now where for so
many years women weren't negotiating as frequently as men are.
A new research actually out of UCLA shows that women
now are negotiating as often, if not more often than
men in the workplace for themselves, but our results are
about half as good. And what that shows is that
we no longer have an asking gap. We now have
(12:37):
a skills gap. And the skills gap is really just education.
It's not that we're inherently not good negotiators. We're actually
inherently very good negotiators. So the research based solution has
three parts. The first part is to think holistically, the
second part is to ask relationally, and the third part
is to discuss collaboratively. Laura, tell me, do you want
me to go into each of those but that be helpful?
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Well, why don't we start with the first one and
then we'll see how we're going.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Great point, So with think holistically when we talk to
our audiences, eighty two percent of people when you say negotiation,
automatically assume base pay. And that is absolutely something that
we can and in many cases we'll want to negotiate.
But at this point in time, if we can open
up the aperture, there's so many other things that we
can negotiate. Right your performance pay, you're signing bonus, a
(13:27):
retention bonus. Then if we're going to want to go
outside of money, we can think about your location, your
work hours, how many resources you're given to do this,
if you get credit for this. All of those things
are negotiable. In fact, we have a list of seventy
five things that you can negotiate, And so when you
think about negotiating A, maybe it's pay, but b maybe
(13:49):
it's more resources so that you can get the full
impact that you're capable of done but without being absolutely exhausted.
Or maybe it's you're going to work these days, but
not this day, because this day is when you're going
to stack all of your kid's doctors' appointments. Right. Those
are the things that were not sort of historically common
(14:12):
negotiations until the past thirty fortyish years. They're absolutely things
that we can think about when we want to negotiate
for not only success, but well being awesome.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and
then we'll be back to learn about the other two
things that we need to negotiate for.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Well, we are.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Back, and we are talking with Catherine Valentine about how
to negotiate, and particularly how one might negotiate as a woman.
That there are certain techniques that might be more fruitful
in negotiation. From that perspective. So we talked about thinking
holistically and you know, Catherine has her list of seventy
five different things one can go, not just pay. So
(15:01):
then the second part was to think relationally right or
ask relationally. Maybe you can talk a little bit about
what that means.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Yeah, so ask relationally is coming. This is research done
by Hannah Riley Bowles and a few others which shows
that when women negotiate, if they demonstrate that what they're
asking for is both legitimate and beneficial, then you have
significantly higher outcomes and you virtually eliminate the risk of backlash.
That sounds really great, but also sounds a little bit complicated,
(15:30):
And so what we've done is sort of boiled it
down into a formula. And the formula is your past
performance plus the future vision and then you're ask and
then stop talking. We added recently because in an attempt
to make the negotiation partner feel comfortable, women would start
negotiating against themselves. So what that looks like, Let's say
you're negotiating for you know, we worked with one woman
(15:52):
who was negotiating for fertility benefits. So let's say you're
doing that. What that would look like is as you know,
I've been able to accomplish XY. In her case, it
was a new job offer she was negotiating. I would
love to be able to come here and apply all
of those skills to you. I think that we can
reach ex growth target within the first twelve months. In
(16:12):
order to do that, though, I need to make sure
that I'm not leaving important benefits on the table. Specifically,
my former company was offering fertility benefits and that's really
important to me, and so I wanted to talk about
whether or not we could make that a possibility here,
to which they immediately agreed because they wanted her and
the growth they were going to achieve through her so much.
That's what that would look like. Do you want to
(16:32):
talk about the third step?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Well, can we back up here and say why is
that relationally? What defines that as a relational ask as
opposed to just an ask based on evidence? And here
we go, what is the relational part there?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
So I actually think it is just an ask based
on evidence as opposed to the There was one Wall
Street Journal article where the expert quote unquote recommended that
you go in and you say, I deserve to be
paid more. That's a real hard thing to recommend that
women do, because we know that women are a high
risk of backlash when they say something like that. However,
(17:07):
if you can lead into here's what I've accomplished, here's
what we can do, and here's what I would need,
that's a much easier ask, a so much more likely
be successful, but be also worst case scenario on that
one is you get to know. It's not that all
of a sudden you're sidetracked or like me, you're told
that you would have no future at that company. So
(17:28):
the relational part is really just thinking about how to
set yourself up for success, not just go in and
make the ask. Now, I will say this is best
practice negotiation for all genders. It just has the added
benefit for women being able to eliminate that risk that
unfortunately we carry. And then what was the third one? Again?
The third one is to discuss collaboratively, and so this
(17:51):
goes back to sort of like getting to yes and
a win win mindset on negotiations. The difference here is
instead of thinking it's you versus me, it's us versus
the problem, and the problem is anything that keeps you
from delivering the full impact you're capable of at the
lowest stress level. It's wrong for you, that's a problem
for your employer. And so framing it up that way,
(18:12):
now we can trade what more might work. And so
I worked with one woman who wanted to be offline
after six pm because that's when all the family things happened.
And her negotiation was, Hey, i'd be able to deliver X.
We're on track for why I want to talk to
you about being able to work the hours in which
I'm most impactful. So I'd like to talk about being
(18:32):
offline after six pm every night? Do you think that
would work? And what she learned back from her manager was, well, actually,
the big report that we do is do on Friday morning.
The whole company reads it. We always work on that late.
So what if you're offline at six pm the other
days but not on Thursday, because that's when it really matters,
And like, that's a huge win for both parties. Without
(18:55):
that collaborative discussion, she probably would just have gotten a
flat out no, and she wouldn't have gained Monday, Tuesday
and Wednesday and for a good Friday.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
That Yeah. Now this is interesting though, because I mean
a lot of these examples that you're giving. Are women
asking for more traditional women things though, right, like the
flexibility and all that. We probably have a lot of
listeners like listen, I would like to be paid more,
you know, and let's do it. And I wonder if
(19:24):
it's I mean, men may be more sort of socialized
to ask for that, because I think a lot of
men are judged fairly or well unfairly really on how
much they make, and it's just as unfair as judging
women on their looks or something like that, but it
is traditionally seen as like this status marker. And so
(19:47):
I think a lot of young men in particular grow
up think, well, I need to negotiate for my whole family,
Like whatever my family's going to want, that could be
on me, and so that it creates this pressure to
get it. And I think a lot of women have
grown to help with that, but maybe they've come to
see that like I would like to be responsible for
my family's financial health as well, or it is just me,
(20:11):
you know, that happens as well too. So let's talk
about getting more money. How do we do that in
a way that doesn't risk backlash?
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I love this question. So I was raised by a
single mom, and as you were hinting at, like our
entire financial well being was on her shoulders. And what
we found, frankly when she retired is that she was
pretty dramatically underpaid and that money over the course of
thirty years could have made a really big difference. And
so this is one that when I originally did the research,
(20:39):
was very much top of mind for me. And so
let's say that you want to ask for more money,
what I would recommend doing is again that past performance.
As you know, last year I was able to increase
sales by five percent. I'm just trying to use a
common example here. Looking forward, based on X, Y, and Z,
I think that we can increase it by why percent
this quarter? Why percent this year? In order to do that,
(21:01):
I want to talk to you about making sure that
I'm paid at the market rate, and frankly, given that
I'm a top performer a little bit higher than that,
I think that number is around X. What do you
think now, Giving a number is a little bit tricky.
What we know from that is that you want to
anchor people and give the number first if you understand
the bargaining zone. So if you know about what is
a fair range. You want to give the number first
(21:23):
because you want them to be anchored high. If you
don't actually know what a fair range is despite having tried,
then you don't want to give the number first. So
that's kind that's always a point of debate. Do I
say the number? Do I not say the number? Depends
on how much information you have, and then I would
go into what do you think about that? Now? When
you're doing a pay negotiation, a lot of times the
most common know we get is like, well, unfortunately budgets
(21:45):
are locked this year, etc. In that case, what I
would recommend doing is saying, you know, I appreciate information.
Can you tell me what I would need to demonstrate
so that when we have this conversation again in six months,
this is an easy yes for you. And what we're
trying to do is eliminate bias by making those check
marks really clear. So when you leave the meeting, you'll
(22:07):
write the note, thank you so much for your time,
here's what I heard from you, And every time you
check one those boxes, you'll send another notes we have
a payper trail, right However, the other way to respond
to well, we can't right now because budgets are locked,
is to access one of the other pots of money.
I understand that budgets are locked on base pay right now,
what about performance pay? What about a retention bonus, what
(22:28):
about a training bonus, what about a relocation bonus assigned?
But like there's one hundred different pots of money out there,
base pay tends to be the most regulated, like there
actually are certain times that you can do it. The
other buckets tend to come more from like a slush
fund type situation, and so they're easier for managers to
access if you need to close some gaps.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah, no, it's interesting. There's always something that's said or
you know, ask for all those other things. I guess
the vacation, the extra weeks of vacation. Even if a
budget is locked, they can let you take more time
off for instance. That might be something to ask for
as well.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
And what I want to pull in here is so
Claudia Golden won the Nobel Prize recently for her work
on women, and what she was able to pull from
the data, which I think is so fascinating, is that
if you want to maximize your financial gain over the
course of your career, you would actually negotiate for promotion,
not a base pay raise, right, because if you get
(23:25):
a base pay raise, you have the averages three percent.
But if you can get a promotion, we're talking about
ten twenty thirty percent pay bumps, and then it puts
you in a new range. And so what I always
think is interesting is you can come straight at pay
if you want to. That's perfectly fine, and I think
we've talked about how to do that, but the research
would actually say that if you wanted to maximize finances,
you would go straight at promotion, which is been able
(23:48):
to do. X think I can do by wanted to
talk to you about being promoted by the end of
the year. Can you tell me what I would need
to demonstrate for that to be an easy yes for you.
The other thing that we know is that because men
tend to be promoted based on potential but women on performance,
that the right time to have that conversation is now.
It's in your midpoint review and lay out like the
(24:09):
breadcrumbs that you would need to do so that your
annual review is predecided.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Basically, I love these phrases that you're using, like what
do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Right?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
That's a good one because you know, it's not just
yes or no, it's like, what do you think? So
that's a have a conversation about it. What would I
need to do to make this an easy yes? That's
another phrase I think people can can learn from that one.
So you know, those are a lot of good ones
to keep in mind. And then being quiet. You mentioned
earlier the idea of just being quiet for a while.
(24:43):
Maybe you can talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Women tend to negotiate against themselves, and this really came
into focus for me when we were working on negotiation
a couple of years ago and the woman wanted to
work remotely, and when we talked, she wanted to work
retly four days a week. That was her goal. And
then when I talked to her after the conversation, she said,
I'd like to work four days a week. You know what,
I bet I could do at end three, But if
(25:07):
two's all that works for you, I'll do. I said, well,
what was your manager saying in between those? She said, oh, nothing,
I just kept talking. And so that's what we want
to sort of guard against. The Other point that you
made about the questions is we've set those up, we're
calling them conversational volleys, but we set them up so
(25:28):
if you can make it, at the end of the
relational ask, it becomes very clear that it's the other
person's turn to talk, not yours, So it makes the
silence just a little bit easier to sit into. Excellent.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
We're going to take one more quick ad break and
then we'll be back with more unnegotiating with Catherine Valentine.
All right, so I am back with Catherine Valentine talk
(26:00):
all things negotiation. You mentioned that you were over prepared,
perhaps with the Birds and Noble book highlighting of your
own negotiation, but obviously we want to go in with
particularly if you are going to be listing past successes,
you need to have a good list of this, so
(26:21):
maybe you can talk about sort of proactively what people
should be doing to set themselves up for good negotiations
in the future.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
So I think the idea of having a win list
or a win file is always a good one. The
other thing that I recommend is sending an end of
week email every week to your manager of like, here's
what we said I was going to work on this week,
Here's what I was able to accomplish. Here's what I'll
work on next week. Number one. That ensures that you're
using your time efficiently. The number two that means that
(26:50):
you're basically highlighting your winds every single week, and so
when that person goes to fill out your review or
anything like that, they just search your name end of
week and it's all right there. The other thing, if
you need to brainstorm what they might be, sort of retroactively,
is to look at your job description, because that tells
you exactly what's important to the company, and you can
lay out you said that I needed to build a
(27:12):
new onboarding program. Not only did I build it, but
we're onboarding people thirty percent faster than you were before.
Because those are the kind of things that you can
lay out there.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
And you want to use numbers, I think that there's
something to be said for turning just about anything into
a number if it possibly can. And yet I think
a lot of people don't really think about that.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Agreed, And I think it doesn't have to be perfect.
Sometimes there are estimations you're going to triangulate what that
number is, But as long as you can reasonably defend it, yes.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
All right, So we're going to come up with a
win list the wind list is going to have numbers
on it. You mentioned that you were practicing with people before.
Should you practice your negotiation.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
I'm so glad that you brought that up. That is
the number one most underutilized way to change what your
outcome is going to be is practicing it with somebody else. Now,
no one likes to do this because it's a little uncomfortable,
but it is the thing that we know will make
a big difference. The other one is and I love
this sort of psychological trick, but you are more likely
(28:13):
to have good outcomes when you go in and you're
primed with happiness. And so what we've seen people do
is plan a reward immediately after the conversation, not because
of the outcome of the conversation, but simply for being
brave enough to have it and knowing that that reward
is coming will actually make you more successful in the conversation.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
I would imagine that also, not putting too much stake
on any one negotiation in your life might be helpful too.
I know that many people have had some of the
best negotiations of their life when they were totally willing
to walk away from whatever it was because the stakes
(28:54):
just don't feel so framped.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Well, and Laura, I love having this conversation with you
because you're so knowledgeable about the topic. So the average
negotiation takes twenty eight days, and I think a lot
of times we've build it up in our mind is
like this one conversation and in an hour I'll have
an answer. And that's actually not the way it usually goes.
And that's to our benefit because as the conversation's evolving
(29:17):
and you get new information, it gives you time to
think about it. So, wow, we've done a lot today.
Here's what we talked about. Here are the things we're
still thinking about. Why don't we come back together in
a few days and finish it up. That's all perfectly.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Sounds good, sounds like some ways we can all come
out ahead. So, Catherine, you mentioned you have this list
of seventy five things you can negotiate other than your salary.
Maybe you can tell our listeners a little bit about
where they can find that and where can they can
learn more about you.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Sure, so for any listeners that are interested in learning
more the list of seventy five things you can negotiate,
which has taken us at this point in time about
eleven years to make. You can access on our website
which is worthmore strategies dot com, WORTA m R and
Strategies dot com. Secondly, if you're part of a women's organization,
(30:07):
these consider are recommending me as a speaker to help
us get these resources to more women.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Yeah, and I mean there's some fascinating ones in there,
like asking I think you put in notes to me
somebody asked for December off. I mean just as an
add because I mean that's when you're not getting much
done anyway, and that is when a lot of stuff
is happening, so it might be something you could you
could ask for.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Well, and Laura's I was writing that email to you,
I realized that there are so many things that you
have probably seen working moms negotiate, right, So from Mayen,
some of the ones I've seen our location, fertility benefits, sabbaticals,
flexible hours, health, more resources out exactly when the work happens.
But even listening to what you and Sarah have done,
(30:50):
like there's so many other creative ways to do this.
Are there any that you've seen in the past that
have really stood out to you?
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Hmm, Well, I'm always. You know, I enjoy watching what
Sarah has negotia over the years as she has i mean,
completely crafted her career to look like what she wants
it to do. I mean that she obviously loves practicing medicine,
but she has so many other things she wants to
do in her life, and she's figured out a way
to arrange her schedule to have both be possible. So
(31:17):
I think that's really cool that she did that. But yeah,
I mean I think, you know, we've seen some cool
ones an episode. I keep hoping to do it at
some point. We had to hold it for a couple
of reasons. But about living somewhere else for a while,
you know, a family going and living somewhere else for
a bit because of both partners negotiated to be able
(31:39):
to work remotely for a bit. So that's a really
cool one. People have taken extended leaves. Sometimes it's not
so awesome why they did. I mean, it's that there's
like a burnout factor going on. But when you've got that,
you're like, look, I could walk out the door tomorrow,
or you could give me a two month leave. You know,
(32:02):
people get their heads around it, and that is heartening.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
To see the woman that I spoke to who had
negotiated Decembers off, and she started negotiating this like twenty
years ago because her kids are in college now. Her
whole insight was, when I take a step back, the
majority of my children's memories and my memories with my
children were happening in this one month. And also I
was getting nothing done at work, to your point, and
(32:27):
so I do think that there is you know, not
everything's possible, but in terms of what is possible, the
ability to be creative with it is something that I
think is a little bit underutilized because we're all going
so fast down this one way of doing things.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Absolutely well, Catherine, you know we always end with a
love of the week. I can go first, just because
to give you time to think about it, although I
think you probably already know what yours is. So this episode,
unless something happens, is airing shortly before Mother's Day, and
one of our listeners at some point shared the strategy
(33:08):
with us, which is, in a twown way, a little negotiation.
But on Mother's Day there's often a certain way that
your family wants to spend their time, which may or
may not be how you wish to spend your time, right,
Either it's that you are going to do something with
the kids, or you may even need to be part
of extended family gatherings that are celebrating the various you know,
(33:30):
matriarchs in your family. And that's awesome, right, but it
again may not be the RESTful celebration of yourself that
you were going for. So she started doing what she
called Mother's Day observed right observed in the parentheses. Like
the post Office, if a major holiday falls on a Sunday,
(33:51):
they then get the Monday off afterwards because it's whatever observed.
And so that's what she does. She take Mother's Day
observe someday, either before or after the Sunday that is
Mother's Day. She would take a day off work, do
whatever she wanted to at that time, and celebrate Mother's
(34:12):
Day in the way that she wished to do. So
my love of the week Mother's Day Observed.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
I love this so much because on Tuesday I was
walking with a couple of my mom friends and they
were all talking about how they were planning their mother
in law's Mother's Day.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Oh my goodness, she.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Wants to do brunch here and she wants to do
it with all of these people, and she wants my
children to wear matching things so that we can take
a picture and blah blah blah blah blah. And so
this is just brilliant.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Well there you go. Maybe more people can put this
into practice this year. So what's your love of the week.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
So mine is in December. I read your book Tranquility
by Tuesday. This is my ideal schedule that I'm showing
holding it up.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yess awesome.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
And in December, because you talk about the course that
you're in in December, I was like, on Wednesdays, I
would love to go to dance class. And we are
now almost in May, and I went to dance class
for the first stop last week and it was so
much fun.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Oh good.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Yeah. I hope that it fits in my ideal week
more often.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
I think it should.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
But that was just I wouldn't have done it if
I hadn't read the book. It was really really awesome.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Well that's wonderful. Well, I'm glad you did, and I'm
even more glad that you made it to dance class
and hope that becomes a Wednesday night staple for your
night off.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Yeah, it only took me four months.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, Catherine, thank you so much for
joining us real quick, could you say your website again
so people have that.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Sure it's worth more strategies, which is wo rt moo
r strategies dot com.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Thank you, Well, we are back.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
That was very informative. We all picked up a lot
of good tips on how to ask for and get
the things that we want in life for ourselves, our teams,
our families. So great to talk with Catherine about that.
Today's question is also about negotiating, of maybe a different
variety than people often think of negotiating, but certainly negotiating.
(36:15):
So this listener writes in how do you handle kid
chores once your kids are older and busy with extracurriculars?
She says, between my partner and I, we have three children,
ages sixteen, fourteen, and almost thirteen. I want them to
help with household chores occasionally, of course, but they're after
(36:35):
school and weekend schedules vary, and I don't want to
get frustrated waiting for the dishwasher to be unloaded. So, Sarah,
how are you guys dealing with negotiating to get kid
chores done despite busy schedules.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
Yeah, I think if a kid is physically not there
to do something, I'm just not really gonna worry about it.
Think about it now, that might be my kids are
a little bit younger, so it is possible that I
just haven't gotten really used to necessarily relying on them
for all that much. Even though I do ask for
their help in certain situations. I don't need it per se,
(37:12):
but I do feel like if they're around and I
ask for help, I expect them to say yes. And
I have had a kid kind of claim the, oh,
I have homework defense, but it's like, okay, that homework
will be there in eight minutes after you've finished unloading
the dishwasher, because we know that's how long it takes.
So I'll call them out if they kind of claim
an excuse that is clearly not actually urgent. But I'm
(37:34):
not going to leave something undone and wait for a
kid to get home if I want it to be done.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
If that makes sense, Yeah, I mean, especially something like
emptying the dishwasher, because when it doesn't get done at
the time it's supposed to be done, then the whole
kitchen schedule is off and people are loading. They're just
putting their dirty dishes in the sink or on the
counter because there's nowhere to put them, and that's like
the additional chaos that then ensues is not worth it.
(37:58):
That said, I do think that, I mean, chores have
been such a struggle for us lately in general. And
some chunk of this is the sheer reality of having
five kids, and particularly having four who are old enough
to do something, Because when I ask somebody to do something,
some chunk of the time, the answer is not okay,
it's why didn't you ask this person? Or they haven't
(38:23):
done anything over the last three days, why didn't you
ask them? Or I did it last time, this person
hasn't done it in two weeks, Go ask them. And
I'm it may be true, it may not. I'm not
keeping an exact tally, Like if I'm sitting there in
the kitchen and we've got a pile of dirty dishes,
I might just ask whoever's there to help me. But
we tried to get something more of a chor schedule,
(38:44):
and again it got complicated of people being gone at
certain times, like if somebody's supposed to do the after
dinner dishes, and they have a seven o'clock thing and
we finished eating at six forty five. They can't do it,
but then somebody else is going to be like, well,
he didn't do it last night, so why do I
have to do it tonight. All this is to say
I haven't come up with a great solution, but it
(39:05):
does matter. I mean, like I was thinking about this
the night before we recorded this. Michael wasn't around. He
and the older boys usually take out the trash, and
this is not just like I don't want to take
out the trash, which may be true, but it also
really hurts my back to carry these cans down a
long driveway. And the two boys were also gone. They
(39:28):
were at a state technology competition on Wednesday night. I'm like,
oh my gosh, what am I even gonna do here?
I mean, so Ruth pulled some of them down. I mean,
she's big enough to do that with some of them.
Alex pulled one down, although again it was harder for
him because it's pretty heavy. And then I pulled two
of them down and it was not a pretty situation.
So I think we may have to come up with
(39:51):
like if you can't do it on your night, you
do it the night before and it just sits there.
I think that's going to have.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
To be how we approach that one in the future.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
Yeah, because that's a good exam of a task that's
not like super like it does it's not like the dishes.
It doesn't have to be done within a very narrow window.
So like you could just assign someone to own it
make it work.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah, nop. So we'll see. Uh, I don't know, we'll
have to is this a question where we don't have
a good answer. But I think if it is something
like taking the trash out and a kid has basketball
practice from six thirty to seven thirty, you might just
wait for the trash to go out after practice and
(40:29):
they can still do it, even if it's not at
the exact time that you would have wanted. Well, this
has been best of both worlds. We have been talking
with Catherine Valentine about negotiation. We will be back next
week with more on making work and life fit together.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the
shoebox dot com or at the Underscore shoe Box on Instagram,
and you.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
has been the best of both world's podcast. Please join
us next time for more on making work and life
work together.
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
and speaker.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician,
writer and course creator. We are two working parents who
love our careers and our families.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
We want you to get the most out of life.
Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This
episode is airing in early May of twenty twenty four.
(00:47):
I am going to be interviewing Catherine Valentine, who is
a negotiation expert. So she has lots of great ideas
on how women in particular can negotiate the various things
in life. And you may be wondering why their gendered
advice for how people negotiate, And it turns out that
there's some research that when women use these sort of
exact same techniques that men do, they may sometimes be
(01:10):
judged in a way that they don't wish to be.
So Catherine has studied how women in particular can ask
for things in a way that preserves relationships but most
importantly helps you get what you want. So we're very
excited about this conversation. But in the meantime, Sarah, have
you negotiated anything lately or anything unusual in your life?
Speaker 3 (01:34):
Well, I am just so validated already by your introduction here,
and I'm so excited to listen to this interview when
it comes out, because I hate negotiating, and I think
I subconsciously understood that that like generally when I try
to negotiate, it feels bad. I feel like I look bad,
it doesn't come off well. I'm not good at it,
and so my typical behavior is to honestly avoid it.
(01:57):
I don't love to do it. I will say I
did have one recent negotiation that I did. It was
very data driven, like I am getting X, this is
what is really happening. I should get wide why here
are the numbers? And I was able to do it.
So when it's something very clear and obvious, and it
can just be a calm conversation of more like explaining,
(02:18):
I don't.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Mind it so much.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
But like things like buying a car or sort of
asking for something that's not on the menu at a
given venue, oh my gosh, I really like I can't
stand it. And it actually can be a little bit
of a sticking point between Josh and me where he'll
be like, why don't you just ask? You'll never know
if you don't ask it. I'm like, I don't want
to ask. And so, for example, this is like such
(02:40):
a small thing, but we were both unable to run
the Jacksonville Marathon last December because I had that unfortunate
incident with my car and then Josh got injured last minute,
and on the website it said something like no deferrals.
But he's like, I'm just going to email them anyway
and show them a picture of your injury and just
honestly explain what happened and ask if they could make
an exception and let us run the race next year.
(03:01):
And I'm like, I would never do that. I'm not
doing that. He's like, well, I'm just going to do it.
And the email back and we're like, here you go,
here's a code you can use this next year.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
Thanks for letting us know.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
So I mean, I guess he's right, Yeah, it would
have been interesting to send that same email with my name,
Like maybe we wouldn't have gotten it.
Speaker 2 (03:17):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (03:18):
If Sarah Hartugar sent the email, I don't know, probably
we still would have gotten it. Yeah, I didn't want
to ask.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
And if they gave it that solely, like they didn't
ask for a physician report or anything like that, then
I think they probably would have to you as well.
Speaker 3 (03:31):
But You're probably right. It's a small race, and I
think they were just like, that's fine. So I'm very,
very very excited for this guest. Are you a good
negotiator or were you before you had this interview?
Speaker 2 (03:41):
I don't know if I am or not. I mean,
in my life I wind up negotiating a lot of
things just through the nature of running your own business.
On the professional front, I do have people who negotiate
certain things for me, Like I've always had a literary agent,
I've had a speaking agent.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
You know.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Those people actually have always been women, And I think
I think women are well known for negotiating on behalf
of other people, and we've always used like female real
estate agents, you know, anything like that, and I think
that that's a perfectly good choice. Like no one should
think like women are bad at negotiating, so I shouldn't
use professional negotiators who are female, because there's actually some
evidence that when women are negotiating for other people, they
(04:20):
negotiate very very well, which is something to think about.
You know, if you are negotiating, think of yourself as
negotiating for your team, negotiating for your family, and expanding
the pool that it's not just I want something, but
this is benefiting all these other people. Can sometimes be
a lot more motivational that I was thinking back to
(04:42):
a negotiating This is so long ago now, but it
came to mind when we were doing the notes for this.
Was buying my car in twenty eleven. It was a
straightforward sort of negotiating kind of thing. I got bids
from three different dealers around the kind of Philadelphia, New Jersey,
Delaware area, and then I took that number to the
(05:07):
dealer who's ten minutes from us, and I said, can
you match it? And they weren't really thrilled about it.
The word used was aggressive, but as long as I
chose a car from the lot, it was okay. So
I did, and it's been a perfectly fine car and
they've made it up. I've gone there for service for
(05:28):
thirteen years now, so I'm pretty sure that I'm a
loyal customer. Whatever they lost on the initial sale, they
have made it up in terms of oil changes and
the like.
Speaker 3 (05:39):
I'm dying to know if Michael wielding the same offer
would also come off as quote aggressive.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Maybe he sometimes is aggressive, you know, we deal with
that well. So anyway, we're delighted to talk with Catherine
Valentine about negotiation, and we hope that you will come
away from this episode with a few tips that you
can use for negotiations in your life. Well, Sarah and
I are delighted to welcome Catherine Valentine to the program. So, Catherine,
(06:10):
can you introduce yourself to our listeners.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Sure. So, my name is Katherin Valentine. I use research
to help companies advance women, and I have two little
ones as well. I have a four year old and
a six year old, and so I feel like when
I listen to your episodes, I just love how much
we talk about both of these things, whereas I feel
like so much of the other world we talk about
one or the other. And so I'm excited to have
(06:34):
this conversation.
Speaker 2 (06:35):
Absolutely, And so the reason we have you on is
that you are a negotiation expert. So maybe you can
tell us how does one become a negotiation expert, or
in your case, how you particularly became a negotiation expert. Ah.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
I think you make all the mistakes in the book first,
and then you decide that you need to really figure
this out. So for me, in particular, I was doing
my MBA internship, which is like a three month job interview,
and a few weeks and I had finished the assign
that they'd given us for the summer, and I decided
that I was going to I wanted to negotiate to
(07:11):
be placed on another team so that I could learn more.
And I spent all weekend preparing for that negotiation. I like,
got the books from Barnes and Noble, and I highlighted
them and I underlined them and I wrote a script.
I tend to over prepare for the things. And so
on Monday morning I went in. Our meeting was at
ten am, and I asked to be assigned to another team.
(07:32):
And by ten oh six it was clear that I
had offended the coordinator in some way. I did not
intend to do that, and by ten ten I was
being told I wasn't a culture fit and therefore there
wouldn't be a future for me at that company, and
so in less time than it took to get a
latte that morning, I completely derailed my career. But I
(07:56):
had a year business school left, so I went back
and I studied what was at that point in time
emerging research on how to negotiate, specifically as a woman.
And what I learned from that year of research is
that one, negotiations gendered, which makes sense when you say it,
but we don't often talk about it as if it is.
We just give advice like the advice is right for everyone. Two.
(08:18):
To that point, most of the advice you would get
if you google, like how do I negotiate is actually
incorrect for women, but it doesn't come with that disclaimer.
And then the third part, which is my favorite part,
is that there is a research proven solution to how
to negotiate more successfully as a woman. It was pioneered
out of Harvard and Carnagie Mellon and then verified by
(08:40):
Georgetown at a bunch of other colleges. And so that
is what I get to do now is bring that
solution to women who can use it to negotiate whatever
it is they want. I think particular to your audience
that would help you achieve the best with both worlds.
Speaker 2 (08:55):
Yeah, so there's a phrase that you don't get what
you deserve, you get what you negotiate, And it sounds
like when you're talking about negotiation here, particularly what happened
to you, there are some pretty big pitfalls here. So
maybe you could give a little commercial for negotiation in general,
because I think a lot of people do have feelings
(09:19):
that it sounds like a terrible thing that you know,
risks many bad things.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
As you mentioned well to your point, we are at
a higher risk of backlash in gender non congruent negotiations.
So what that means is when men are negotiating flexibility,
they're actually at a higher risk of backlash than women are.
But women are a significantly higher risk of backlash when
they're negotiating all the traditional things, promotions, resources, pay all
(09:45):
of that. The commercial, though, that's not the commercial.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
That's no, no, that was not the commercial. That doesn't
make you want to do it. Let's try the commercial now.
Speaker 1 (09:54):
The commercial though, is that there are significant benefits to negotiating.
I think the one that we're most familiar with usually
is the financial benefit. Right, So a million dollars over
your career, or if you want to think about it differently,
you can work for eight less eight fewer years if
you choose to negotiate the other one though, that I
(10:17):
think is really ignited the research community recently is early
evidence that moms who choose to negotiate workload that can
be a predictor of whether or not they remain in
paid employment. And that is one of those things where
it just starts to open the door for all the
things that we can negotiate, because if you think about it,
(10:37):
if the workplace was not built for us, and so
there isn't necessarily a well beaten path we can go down,
we probably are going to need to make a number
of individual negotiations as the workplace is changing. So when
you think about what group of people could benefit the
most from negotiation skills, it really is working moms. Now.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
I want to make a quick caveat here, though, because
it's not that women can't ask for money, and that
one also shouldn't shy away from people who negotiate professionally
who happen to be women. I wouldn't want people hearing
this to be like, well, I shouldn't hire a female
real estate agent, I shouldn't hire a female talent agent.
(11:22):
I shouldn't hire you know that there are you are
not at a disadvantage necessarily in the market because your
real estate agent is a woman.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
No, Actually, women have better negotiated outcomes when negotiated on
behalf of others than men. So you were at an
advantage if your real estate agent is a woman, or
if you're agent in any way as a woman. That
blush actually happens for women when we're negotiating on behalf
of ourselves. And that's one of the things that you know,
is kind of the problem with if you were to
(11:53):
google how do I negotiate for myself? And that's also
where you know kind of the solution comes in.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Well, let's talk about it a little bit then, because
you said that there is a solution, so maybe we
can get in now, what are some of the negotiation
techniques that maybe are more fruitful for women to pursue.
Speaker 1 (12:17):
So we're in a spot right now where for so
many years women weren't negotiating as frequently as men are.
A new research actually out of UCLA shows that women
now are negotiating as often, if not more often than
men in the workplace for themselves, but our results are
about half as good. And what that shows is that
we no longer have an asking gap. We now have
(12:37):
a skills gap. And the skills gap is really just education.
It's not that we're inherently not good negotiators. We're actually
inherently very good negotiators. So the research based solution has
three parts. The first part is to think holistically, the
second part is to ask relationally, and the third part
is to discuss collaboratively. Laura, tell me, do you want
me to go into each of those but that be helpful?
Speaker 2 (13:00):
Well, why don't we start with the first one and
then we'll see how we're going.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Great point, So with think holistically when we talk to
our audiences, eighty two percent of people when you say negotiation,
automatically assume base pay. And that is absolutely something that
we can and in many cases we'll want to negotiate.
But at this point in time, if we can open
up the aperture, there's so many other things that we
can negotiate. Right your performance pay, you're signing bonus, a
(13:27):
retention bonus. Then if we're going to want to go
outside of money, we can think about your location, your
work hours, how many resources you're given to do this,
if you get credit for this. All of those things
are negotiable. In fact, we have a list of seventy
five things that you can negotiate, And so when you
think about negotiating A, maybe it's pay, but b maybe
(13:49):
it's more resources so that you can get the full
impact that you're capable of done but without being absolutely exhausted.
Or maybe it's you're going to work these days, but
not this day, because this day is when you're going
to stack all of your kid's doctors' appointments. Right. Those
are the things that were not sort of historically common
(14:12):
negotiations until the past thirty fortyish years. They're absolutely things
that we can think about when we want to negotiate
for not only success, but well being awesome.
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Well, we're going to take a quick ad break and
then we'll be back to learn about the other two
things that we need to negotiate for.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Well, we are.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
Back, and we are talking with Catherine Valentine about how
to negotiate, and particularly how one might negotiate as a woman.
That there are certain techniques that might be more fruitful
in negotiation. From that perspective. So we talked about thinking
holistically and you know, Catherine has her list of seventy
five different things one can go, not just pay. So
(15:01):
then the second part was to think relationally right or
ask relationally. Maybe you can talk a little bit about
what that means.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
Yeah, so ask relationally is coming. This is research done
by Hannah Riley Bowles and a few others which shows
that when women negotiate, if they demonstrate that what they're
asking for is both legitimate and beneficial, then you have
significantly higher outcomes and you virtually eliminate the risk of backlash.
That sounds really great, but also sounds a little bit complicated,
(15:30):
And so what we've done is sort of boiled it
down into a formula. And the formula is your past
performance plus the future vision and then you're ask and
then stop talking. We added recently because in an attempt
to make the negotiation partner feel comfortable, women would start
negotiating against themselves. So what that looks like, Let's say
you're negotiating for you know, we worked with one woman
(15:52):
who was negotiating for fertility benefits. So let's say you're
doing that. What that would look like is as you know,
I've been able to accomplish XY. In her case, it
was a new job offer she was negotiating. I would
love to be able to come here and apply all
of those skills to you. I think that we can
reach ex growth target within the first twelve months. In
(16:12):
order to do that, though, I need to make sure
that I'm not leaving important benefits on the table. Specifically,
my former company was offering fertility benefits and that's really
important to me, and so I wanted to talk about
whether or not we could make that a possibility here,
to which they immediately agreed because they wanted her and
the growth they were going to achieve through her so much.
That's what that would look like. Do you want to
(16:32):
talk about the third step?
Speaker 2 (16:33):
Well, can we back up here and say why is
that relationally? What defines that as a relational ask as
opposed to just an ask based on evidence? And here
we go, what is the relational part there?
Speaker 1 (16:46):
So I actually think it is just an ask based
on evidence as opposed to the There was one Wall
Street Journal article where the expert quote unquote recommended that
you go in and you say, I deserve to be
paid more. That's a real hard thing to recommend that
women do, because we know that women are a high
risk of backlash when they say something like that. However,
(17:07):
if you can lead into here's what I've accomplished, here's
what we can do, and here's what I would need,
that's a much easier ask, a so much more likely
be successful, but be also worst case scenario on that
one is you get to know. It's not that all
of a sudden you're sidetracked or like me, you're told
that you would have no future at that company. So
(17:28):
the relational part is really just thinking about how to
set yourself up for success, not just go in and
make the ask. Now, I will say this is best
practice negotiation for all genders. It just has the added
benefit for women being able to eliminate that risk that
unfortunately we carry. And then what was the third one? Again?
The third one is to discuss collaboratively, and so this
(17:51):
goes back to sort of like getting to yes and
a win win mindset on negotiations. The difference here is
instead of thinking it's you versus me, it's us versus
the problem, and the problem is anything that keeps you
from delivering the full impact you're capable of at the
lowest stress level. It's wrong for you, that's a problem
for your employer. And so framing it up that way,
(18:12):
now we can trade what more might work. And so
I worked with one woman who wanted to be offline
after six pm because that's when all the family things happened.
And her negotiation was, Hey, i'd be able to deliver X.
We're on track for why I want to talk to
you about being able to work the hours in which
I'm most impactful. So I'd like to talk about being
(18:32):
offline after six pm every night? Do you think that
would work? And what she learned back from her manager was, well, actually,
the big report that we do is do on Friday morning.
The whole company reads it. We always work on that late.
So what if you're offline at six pm the other
days but not on Thursday, because that's when it really matters,
And like, that's a huge win for both parties. Without
(18:55):
that collaborative discussion, she probably would just have gotten a
flat out no, and she wouldn't have gained Monday, Tuesday
and Wednesday and for a good Friday.
Speaker 2 (19:02):
That Yeah. Now this is interesting though, because I mean
a lot of these examples that you're giving. Are women
asking for more traditional women things though, right, like the
flexibility and all that. We probably have a lot of
listeners like listen, I would like to be paid more,
you know, and let's do it. And I wonder if
(19:24):
it's I mean, men may be more sort of socialized
to ask for that, because I think a lot of
men are judged fairly or well unfairly really on how
much they make, and it's just as unfair as judging
women on their looks or something like that, but it
is traditionally seen as like this status marker. And so
(19:47):
I think a lot of young men in particular grow
up think, well, I need to negotiate for my whole family,
Like whatever my family's going to want, that could be
on me, and so that it creates this pressure to
get it. And I think a lot of women have
grown to help with that, but maybe they've come to
see that like I would like to be responsible for
my family's financial health as well, or it is just me,
(20:11):
you know, that happens as well too. So let's talk
about getting more money. How do we do that in
a way that doesn't risk backlash?
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I love this question. So I was raised by a
single mom, and as you were hinting at, like our
entire financial well being was on her shoulders. And what
we found, frankly when she retired is that she was
pretty dramatically underpaid and that money over the course of
thirty years could have made a really big difference. And
so this is one that when I originally did the research,
(20:39):
was very much top of mind for me. And so
let's say that you want to ask for more money,
what I would recommend doing is again that past performance.
As you know, last year I was able to increase
sales by five percent. I'm just trying to use a
common example here. Looking forward, based on X, Y, and Z,
I think that we can increase it by why percent
this quarter? Why percent this year? In order to do that,
(21:01):
I want to talk to you about making sure that
I'm paid at the market rate, and frankly, given that
I'm a top performer a little bit higher than that,
I think that number is around X. What do you
think now, Giving a number is a little bit tricky.
What we know from that is that you want to
anchor people and give the number first if you understand
the bargaining zone. So if you know about what is
a fair range. You want to give the number first
(21:23):
because you want them to be anchored high. If you
don't actually know what a fair range is despite having tried,
then you don't want to give the number first. So
that's kind that's always a point of debate. Do I
say the number? Do I not say the number? Depends
on how much information you have, and then I would
go into what do you think about that? Now? When
you're doing a pay negotiation, a lot of times the
most common know we get is like, well, unfortunately budgets
(21:45):
are locked this year, etc. In that case, what I
would recommend doing is saying, you know, I appreciate information.
Can you tell me what I would need to demonstrate
so that when we have this conversation again in six months,
this is an easy yes for you. And what we're
trying to do is eliminate bias by making those check
marks really clear. So when you leave the meeting, you'll
(22:07):
write the note, thank you so much for your time,
here's what I heard from you, And every time you
check one those boxes, you'll send another notes we have
a payper trail, right However, the other way to respond
to well, we can't right now because budgets are locked,
is to access one of the other pots of money.
I understand that budgets are locked on base pay right now,
what about performance pay? What about a retention bonus, what
(22:28):
about a training bonus, what about a relocation bonus assigned?
But like there's one hundred different pots of money out there,
base pay tends to be the most regulated, like there
actually are certain times that you can do it. The
other buckets tend to come more from like a slush
fund type situation, and so they're easier for managers to
access if you need to close some gaps.
Speaker 2 (22:47):
Yeah, no, it's interesting. There's always something that's said or
you know, ask for all those other things. I guess
the vacation, the extra weeks of vacation. Even if a
budget is locked, they can let you take more time
off for instance. That might be something to ask for
as well.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
And what I want to pull in here is so
Claudia Golden won the Nobel Prize recently for her work
on women, and what she was able to pull from
the data, which I think is so fascinating, is that
if you want to maximize your financial gain over the
course of your career, you would actually negotiate for promotion,
not a base pay raise, right, because if you get
(23:25):
a base pay raise, you have the averages three percent.
But if you can get a promotion, we're talking about
ten twenty thirty percent pay bumps, and then it puts
you in a new range. And so what I always
think is interesting is you can come straight at pay
if you want to. That's perfectly fine, and I think
we've talked about how to do that, but the research
would actually say that if you wanted to maximize finances,
you would go straight at promotion, which is been able
(23:48):
to do. X think I can do by wanted to
talk to you about being promoted by the end of
the year. Can you tell me what I would need
to demonstrate for that to be an easy yes for you.
The other thing that we know is that because men
tend to be promoted based on potential but women on performance,
that the right time to have that conversation is now.
It's in your midpoint review and lay out like the
(24:09):
breadcrumbs that you would need to do so that your
annual review is predecided.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Basically, I love these phrases that you're using, like what
do you think about that?
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Right?
Speaker 2 (24:21):
That's a good one because you know, it's not just
yes or no, it's like, what do you think? So
that's a have a conversation about it. What would I
need to do to make this an easy yes? That's
another phrase I think people can can learn from that one.
So you know, those are a lot of good ones
to keep in mind. And then being quiet. You mentioned
earlier the idea of just being quiet for a while.
(24:43):
Maybe you can talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Women tend to negotiate against themselves, and this really came
into focus for me when we were working on negotiation
a couple of years ago and the woman wanted to
work remotely, and when we talked, she wanted to work
retly four days a week. That was her goal. And
then when I talked to her after the conversation, she said,
I'd like to work four days a week. You know what,
I bet I could do at end three, But if
(25:07):
two's all that works for you, I'll do. I said, well,
what was your manager saying in between those? She said, oh, nothing,
I just kept talking. And so that's what we want
to sort of guard against. The Other point that you
made about the questions is we've set those up, we're
calling them conversational volleys, but we set them up so
(25:28):
if you can make it, at the end of the
relational ask, it becomes very clear that it's the other
person's turn to talk, not yours, So it makes the
silence just a little bit easier to sit into. Excellent.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
We're going to take one more quick ad break and
then we'll be back with more unnegotiating with Catherine Valentine.
All right, so I am back with Catherine Valentine talk
(26:00):
all things negotiation. You mentioned that you were over prepared,
perhaps with the Birds and Noble book highlighting of your
own negotiation, but obviously we want to go in with
particularly if you are going to be listing past successes,
you need to have a good list of this, so
(26:21):
maybe you can talk about sort of proactively what people
should be doing to set themselves up for good negotiations
in the future.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
So I think the idea of having a win list
or a win file is always a good one. The
other thing that I recommend is sending an end of
week email every week to your manager of like, here's
what we said I was going to work on this week,
Here's what I was able to accomplish. Here's what I'll
work on next week. Number one. That ensures that you're
using your time efficiently. The number two that means that
(26:50):
you're basically highlighting your winds every single week, and so
when that person goes to fill out your review or
anything like that, they just search your name end of
week and it's all right there. The other thing, if
you need to brainstorm what they might be, sort of retroactively,
is to look at your job description, because that tells
you exactly what's important to the company, and you can
lay out you said that I needed to build a
(27:12):
new onboarding program. Not only did I build it, but
we're onboarding people thirty percent faster than you were before.
Because those are the kind of things that you can
lay out there.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
And you want to use numbers, I think that there's
something to be said for turning just about anything into
a number if it possibly can. And yet I think
a lot of people don't really think about that.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
Agreed, And I think it doesn't have to be perfect.
Sometimes there are estimations you're going to triangulate what that
number is, But as long as you can reasonably defend it, yes.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
All right, So we're going to come up with a
win list the wind list is going to have numbers
on it. You mentioned that you were practicing with people before.
Should you practice your negotiation.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
I'm so glad that you brought that up. That is
the number one most underutilized way to change what your
outcome is going to be is practicing it with somebody else. Now,
no one likes to do this because it's a little uncomfortable,
but it is the thing that we know will make
a big difference. The other one is and I love
this sort of psychological trick, but you are more likely
(28:13):
to have good outcomes when you go in and you're
primed with happiness. And so what we've seen people do
is plan a reward immediately after the conversation, not because
of the outcome of the conversation, but simply for being
brave enough to have it and knowing that that reward
is coming will actually make you more successful in the conversation.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
I would imagine that also, not putting too much stake
on any one negotiation in your life might be helpful too.
I know that many people have had some of the
best negotiations of their life when they were totally willing
to walk away from whatever it was because the stakes
(28:54):
just don't feel so framped.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Well, and Laura, I love having this conversation with you
because you're so knowledgeable about the topic. So the average
negotiation takes twenty eight days, and I think a lot
of times we've build it up in our mind is
like this one conversation and in an hour I'll have
an answer. And that's actually not the way it usually goes.
And that's to our benefit because as the conversation's evolving
(29:17):
and you get new information, it gives you time to
think about it. So, wow, we've done a lot today.
Here's what we talked about. Here are the things we're
still thinking about. Why don't we come back together in
a few days and finish it up. That's all perfectly.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
Sounds good, sounds like some ways we can all come
out ahead. So, Catherine, you mentioned you have this list
of seventy five things you can negotiate other than your salary.
Maybe you can tell our listeners a little bit about
where they can find that and where can they can
learn more about you.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Sure, so for any listeners that are interested in learning
more the list of seventy five things you can negotiate,
which has taken us at this point in time about
eleven years to make. You can access on our website
which is worthmore strategies dot com, WORTA m R and
Strategies dot com. Secondly, if you're part of a women's organization,
(30:07):
these consider are recommending me as a speaker to help
us get these resources to more women.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Yeah, and I mean there's some fascinating ones in there,
like asking I think you put in notes to me
somebody asked for December off. I mean just as an
add because I mean that's when you're not getting much
done anyway, and that is when a lot of stuff
is happening, so it might be something you could you
could ask for.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Well, and Laura's I was writing that email to you,
I realized that there are so many things that you
have probably seen working moms negotiate, right, So from Mayen,
some of the ones I've seen our location, fertility benefits, sabbaticals,
flexible hours, health, more resources out exactly when the work happens.
But even listening to what you and Sarah have done,
(30:50):
like there's so many other creative ways to do this.
Are there any that you've seen in the past that
have really stood out to you?
Speaker 2 (30:56):
Hmm, Well, I'm always. You know, I enjoy watching what
Sarah has negotia over the years as she has i mean,
completely crafted her career to look like what she wants
it to do. I mean that she obviously loves practicing medicine,
but she has so many other things she wants to
do in her life, and she's figured out a way
to arrange her schedule to have both be possible. So
(31:17):
I think that's really cool that she did that. But yeah,
I mean I think, you know, we've seen some cool
ones an episode. I keep hoping to do it at
some point. We had to hold it for a couple
of reasons. But about living somewhere else for a while,
you know, a family going and living somewhere else for
a bit because of both partners negotiated to be able
(31:39):
to work remotely for a bit. So that's a really
cool one. People have taken extended leaves. Sometimes it's not
so awesome why they did. I mean, it's that there's
like a burnout factor going on. But when you've got that,
you're like, look, I could walk out the door tomorrow,
or you could give me a two month leave. You know,
(32:02):
people get their heads around it, and that is heartening.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
To see the woman that I spoke to who had
negotiated Decembers off, and she started negotiating this like twenty
years ago because her kids are in college now. Her
whole insight was, when I take a step back, the
majority of my children's memories and my memories with my
children were happening in this one month. And also I
was getting nothing done at work, to your point, and
(32:27):
so I do think that there is you know, not
everything's possible, but in terms of what is possible, the
ability to be creative with it is something that I
think is a little bit underutilized because we're all going
so fast down this one way of doing things.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
Absolutely well, Catherine, you know we always end with a
love of the week. I can go first, just because
to give you time to think about it, although I
think you probably already know what yours is. So this episode,
unless something happens, is airing shortly before Mother's Day, and
one of our listeners at some point shared the strategy
(33:08):
with us, which is, in a twown way, a little negotiation.
But on Mother's Day there's often a certain way that
your family wants to spend their time, which may or
may not be how you wish to spend your time, right,
Either it's that you are going to do something with
the kids, or you may even need to be part
of extended family gatherings that are celebrating the various you know,
(33:30):
matriarchs in your family. And that's awesome, right, but it
again may not be the RESTful celebration of yourself that
you were going for. So she started doing what she
called Mother's Day observed right observed in the parentheses. Like
the post Office, if a major holiday falls on a Sunday,
(33:51):
they then get the Monday off afterwards because it's whatever observed.
And so that's what she does. She take Mother's Day
observe someday, either before or after the Sunday that is
Mother's Day. She would take a day off work, do
whatever she wanted to at that time, and celebrate Mother's
(34:12):
Day in the way that she wished to do. So
my love of the week Mother's Day Observed.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
I love this so much because on Tuesday I was
walking with a couple of my mom friends and they
were all talking about how they were planning their mother
in law's Mother's Day.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Oh my goodness, she.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Wants to do brunch here and she wants to do
it with all of these people, and she wants my
children to wear matching things so that we can take
a picture and blah blah blah blah blah. And so
this is just brilliant.
Speaker 2 (34:40):
Well there you go. Maybe more people can put this
into practice this year. So what's your love of the week.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
So mine is in December. I read your book Tranquility
by Tuesday. This is my ideal schedule that I'm showing
holding it up.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yess awesome.
Speaker 1 (34:56):
And in December, because you talk about the course that
you're in in December, I was like, on Wednesdays, I
would love to go to dance class. And we are
now almost in May, and I went to dance class
for the first stop last week and it was so
much fun.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
Oh good.
Speaker 1 (35:12):
Yeah. I hope that it fits in my ideal week
more often.
Speaker 2 (35:16):
I think it should.
Speaker 1 (35:16):
But that was just I wouldn't have done it if
I hadn't read the book. It was really really awesome.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Well that's wonderful. Well, I'm glad you did, and I'm
even more glad that you made it to dance class
and hope that becomes a Wednesday night staple for your
night off.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Yeah, it only took me four months.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. Well, Catherine, thank you so much for
joining us real quick, could you say your website again
so people have that.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Sure it's worth more strategies, which is wo rt moo
r strategies dot com.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1 (35:51):
Thank you, Well, we are back.
Speaker 2 (35:53):
That was very informative. We all picked up a lot
of good tips on how to ask for and get
the things that we want in life for ourselves, our teams,
our families. So great to talk with Catherine about that.
Today's question is also about negotiating, of maybe a different
variety than people often think of negotiating, but certainly negotiating.
(36:15):
So this listener writes in how do you handle kid
chores once your kids are older and busy with extracurriculars?
She says, between my partner and I, we have three children,
ages sixteen, fourteen, and almost thirteen. I want them to
help with household chores occasionally, of course, but they're after
(36:35):
school and weekend schedules vary, and I don't want to
get frustrated waiting for the dishwasher to be unloaded. So, Sarah,
how are you guys dealing with negotiating to get kid
chores done despite busy schedules.
Speaker 3 (36:50):
Yeah, I think if a kid is physically not there
to do something, I'm just not really gonna worry about it.
Think about it now, that might be my kids are
a little bit younger, so it is possible that I
just haven't gotten really used to necessarily relying on them
for all that much. Even though I do ask for
their help in certain situations. I don't need it per se,
(37:12):
but I do feel like if they're around and I
ask for help, I expect them to say yes. And
I have had a kid kind of claim the, oh,
I have homework defense, but it's like, okay, that homework
will be there in eight minutes after you've finished unloading
the dishwasher, because we know that's how long it takes.
So I'll call them out if they kind of claim
an excuse that is clearly not actually urgent. But I'm
(37:34):
not going to leave something undone and wait for a
kid to get home if I want it to be done.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
If that makes sense, Yeah, I mean, especially something like
emptying the dishwasher, because when it doesn't get done at
the time it's supposed to be done, then the whole
kitchen schedule is off and people are loading. They're just
putting their dirty dishes in the sink or on the
counter because there's nowhere to put them, and that's like
the additional chaos that then ensues is not worth it.
(37:58):
That said, I do think that, I mean, chores have
been such a struggle for us lately in general. And
some chunk of this is the sheer reality of having
five kids, and particularly having four who are old enough
to do something, Because when I ask somebody to do something,
some chunk of the time, the answer is not okay,
it's why didn't you ask this person? Or they haven't
(38:23):
done anything over the last three days, why didn't you
ask them? Or I did it last time, this person
hasn't done it in two weeks, Go ask them. And
I'm it may be true, it may not. I'm not
keeping an exact tally, Like if I'm sitting there in
the kitchen and we've got a pile of dirty dishes,
I might just ask whoever's there to help me. But
we tried to get something more of a chor schedule,
(38:44):
and again it got complicated of people being gone at
certain times, like if somebody's supposed to do the after
dinner dishes, and they have a seven o'clock thing and
we finished eating at six forty five. They can't do it,
but then somebody else is going to be like, well,
he didn't do it last night, so why do I
have to do it tonight. All this is to say
I haven't come up with a great solution, but it
(39:05):
does matter. I mean, like I was thinking about this
the night before we recorded this. Michael wasn't around. He
and the older boys usually take out the trash, and
this is not just like I don't want to take
out the trash, which may be true, but it also
really hurts my back to carry these cans down a
long driveway. And the two boys were also gone. They
(39:28):
were at a state technology competition on Wednesday night. I'm like,
oh my gosh, what am I even gonna do here?
I mean, so Ruth pulled some of them down. I mean,
she's big enough to do that with some of them.
Alex pulled one down, although again it was harder for
him because it's pretty heavy. And then I pulled two
of them down and it was not a pretty situation.
So I think we may have to come up with
(39:51):
like if you can't do it on your night, you
do it the night before and it just sits there.
I think that's going to have.
Speaker 1 (39:56):
To be how we approach that one in the future.
Speaker 3 (39:59):
Yeah, because that's a good exam of a task that's
not like super like it does it's not like the dishes.
It doesn't have to be done within a very narrow window.
So like you could just assign someone to own it
make it work.
Speaker 2 (40:09):
Yeah, nop. So we'll see. Uh, I don't know, we'll
have to is this a question where we don't have
a good answer. But I think if it is something
like taking the trash out and a kid has basketball
practice from six thirty to seven thirty, you might just
wait for the trash to go out after practice and
(40:29):
they can still do it, even if it's not at
the exact time that you would have wanted. Well, this
has been best of both worlds. We have been talking
with Catherine Valentine about negotiation. We will be back next
week with more on making work and life fit together.
Speaker 3 (40:46):
Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the
shoebox dot com or at the Underscore shoe Box on Instagram,
and you.
Speaker 2 (40:54):
Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
has been the best of both world's podcast. Please join
us next time for more on making work and life
work together.
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