September 9, 2025 • 24 mins
Hey Betrayal listeners, Andrea here! To celebrate the release of Season 3 of the docu-series Betrayal: Under His Eye, we’re doing something a little different. In this bonus episode, I have an exclusive conversation with a few of the people at ABCNews Studios who helped Betrayal become a hit TV series on Hulu. Once you’ve listened, check out the series we all brought to life. Betrayal: Under His Eye is available to stream NOW only on Hulu and Hulu on Disney+. All three episodes are available to binge!
On this bonus episode, I’m joined by ABCNews Executive Producer Muriel Pearson, Head of ABCNews Studios Mike Kelley, and Glass Entertainment Group's Executive Producer Jon Hirsch to talk about how the Hulu docu-series came to be as well as some behind-the-scenes details of how the show is made. We also discuss how my guests decide if a podcast would work well for TV, the importance of bringing these stories to a broader audience, and how the true crime genre has evolved to let women tell their own stories — not just as victims, but as survivors.
To watch me have this conversation with my guests, as well as access more conversations with Ashley, Stacey, Karoline and the Betrayal team not on this feed, subscribed for FREE today to Beyond Betrayal, the official Substack community of Betrayal.
And if you have a story you’d like to share with us, email us at betrayalpod@gmail.com. And if you’re a paid Substack subscriber, join us in the chat!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, Betrayal fans, I have exciting news to share. Season
three of Betrayal is now a docu series on Hulu.
It's the gripping story of Stacy Tyler and the doctor
who betrayed them. See the voices you've come to know
in Betrayal Under His Eye, streaming now on Hulu. Now
here's a discussion with the people who made that happen.
(00:22):
Hey everyone, I'm back today with John Hirsch, the executive
producer and director of Betrayal, the docuseries.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hi, Dre, thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
It's great to be back here with your audience and
really excited about today's episode because we have two of
our amazing colleagues from ABC News Studio here with us,
Muriel Pearson and Mike Kelly. Hi, guys, but why don't
you go ahead and introduce yourselves to our audience and
also to the host of Betrayal, Andrea Gunning.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I know, it's so nice to meet you guys.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
Hey, Andrea, it's nice to see you. I'm Mike Kelly,
I leave the team here at ABC News.
Speaker 5 (00:59):
Studios, and Andrea, I'm Muriel Pearson. I'm the executive producer
in the ABC News Studios. I he's been working valiantly
with John on this this amazing series.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
So yeah, thank you for all you do. I hear
your names all the time. Obviously, I'm super involved in
the creative and like everything that goes in on the podcast,
but I'm mostly on set in doing like interviews for
the TV shows, so I don't get a lot of
the posts and like, so I don't really get to
see you guys. So it's really nice to spend this time,
and I really am appreciative. I have a ton of
(01:32):
questions because we've never really chatted before. If you guys
don't mind, I would love to just dive in.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Let's jump in.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So I'm so curious. I mean, I obviously love Betrayal.
I'm Betrayal all the way.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
But where did the.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Initial idea to turn the podcast into the docu series
come from? Like, how did that start?
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Well, we have we have a small team of people
focused on developing new ideas and they're like constantly scouring
the marketplace for IP that resonates with audience, and so
it didn't take a lot of investigating for them to
find Betrayal podcasts because it was so huge out of
the gate, right, big gigantic hit, and then you know
around that time that our team sort of found betrayal
(02:13):
as fans. I think the Glass team came and had
a general introduction with us, and we quickly decided there's
a real partnership that be had here, and so, you know,
after a bunch of conversations, decided to say, yeah, let's
adapt this into a television program.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
How do you guys know when a podcast has the
potential to be a successful TV series.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
I think if a podcast is successful in its own right,
it's obvious that there's interest in the story, but not
every podcast automatically lends itself to visual or television adaptation right.
To be successful on TV, just like a podcast, you
need an amazing story first and foremost, but you also
need characters that are visually compelling. You need an archive
(02:57):
to bring the history and the background of the story
to life, and if it's true crime, you need kind
of the police force, the investigative team to help bring
that side of the story to life too. You know,
sometimes people are only willing to participate in the audio
format and are not willing to appear on cameras, so
you have to have that piece too. So it's all
those different pieces have to come together to turn a
really successful audio story into great television. There's probably the
(03:20):
other things that Miel or John could add.
Speaker 5 (03:22):
Well, I'm gonna actually speak specifically to betrayal, Drea, because
there is no question that this topic we instantly recognized
would be have an incredible resonance with our audience. You know,
a lot of the people who are in our audience.
I mean, we look at the demos and it's a
predominantly female audience, and this idea of trust broken, of
(03:46):
double lives, of a betrayal of what there's the most
intimate thing that you could possibly imagine, is incredibly appealing
to that audience because you know, people look at these
stories and they try and see parallels with their own lives,
and I think particularly with betrayal, and you know this
(04:07):
because of the podcast, people have resonance with this because
this has happened to them and the many, many women
that you guys have profiled and the ones that we've
profiled here. I mean, the response that we get is
that emotional response to how do other people respond to
(04:28):
this thing that honestly, they sometimes think they're all alone
in that they alone have been betrayed and that there's
a kind of comfort in knowing that you're not alone
and to share that experience. So we knew that from
the beginning with Betrayal that it would be successful.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Yeah, that really speaks to the community that's developed over
the last several years as betrayals become bigger and bigger,
and that it speaks to the type of feedback that
we get both on the podcast side and on the
television side from you know, listeners, from viewers who they
see themselves in these people. They see the parallels, and
that relatability obviously goes a long way, but it's also
it's really refreshing, and it's it's this is one of
(05:08):
the reasons why we love you guys as partners is
the understanding and and acknowledgment of the challenges of taking
a podcast and turning it into a television show. That
willingness of participants, the archive that needs to be strong,
the investigative beats that true crime fans you know, kind
of want to latch into and uh, you know, having
all those ingredients and to come together in something that
(05:31):
someone will watch for three consecutive episodes. It's not an
easy task, and it's been it's been a lot of fun.
It's been a big challenge, but I think we've learned
a lot about you know, what are what all those
ingredients are, and how they need to mesh together for
these stories to really work.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
There aren't betrayals with strangers. This is a thing that's intimate,
that happens between people that you love and care about,
the people that are closest to you. And so when
we're looking at stories for the podcast, it's about the betrayal,
but it's equally about the love story.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
And what you guys do so well.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
With on the TV side, and it's something that I
often forget and is usually the most shocking part when
I'm watching it is seeing the love story unfold visually,
because it's one thing to hear it. But with the
archival and how you guys build, especially in season three,
with what Justin meant for Stacy and her life and
when she was able to provide her kids and that
(06:25):
she had made it, I mean, it was so well done.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
I mean, John and Matt have been real masters at
creating that feeling of intimacy. In the edit, I mean,
it all comes down to the beginning in the archive.
I mean, I just think John, you guys have done
an incredible job and just making the kind of fairy
tale that we all dream of, that you want that
(06:49):
happily ever after, that you want to find the perfect man.
And that's what makes the betrayal so terrible is to
see these women finding in very different ways, whether it's
or you know, I went through a few people, it
didn't work out, and here was the guy who changed
my life, who made me feel great about myself. And
(07:12):
you know, that's just that is the storyline that has
been so effective with this and powerful because you totally
buy into that, and it's a betrayal because it's the
thing that you wanted most and that you felt that
you were safe. Stacy felt she was safe for the
first time and she was never in more peril.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
One of the things we really focus on in everything
that we do at ABC News Studios, but betrayal is
so amblematic of that, is we want to find first
person narratives.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
Right.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
These are mostly women, in the case of betrayal, telling
their own story from their own perspective, right, And that's
what we strive in everything that we do. Like either
we have the victim or we have the perpetrator in
first person, and hopefully we have both right, so we
can tell a really nuanced, complex story. And every season
the betrayal, we've been able to do that, and I
think that's part of the reason why these have been
so successful.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Yeah, we always look at it as we want the
audience to, you know, be along for the ride, the good,
the good, the bad, the ugly, all those things. But
most importantly, we look at how we're gonna tease the turn,
and then when we get to the turn, we want
to make sure that the audience really is rooting for
our main character.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
And it's easy to root for Stacy when you when you.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Learn about her backstory and you understand all the things
that she went through with her first marriage, being a
single mom, you know, some of the struggles that she
went through, and then meeting this you know, this rising
you know, star in the medical field, in justin Rutherford
and and kind of you know, having that fairy tale.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
You know, it's not that we want to just pull
the rug.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Out from from from under the audience, but we really
want them to feel what Stacy felt, and in this
case also what her children, Tyler and michaela fell and
the way that their world had grown into something you know,
that they could be proud of, that they felt so
great about.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
And then it's it makes it all that much more.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Devastating when the truth starts to come out about what
Justin was doing. And then obviously in this story, there
are multiple multiple layers to the way those terrible truths
you roll out, because I mean, it's such a sinister story.
When when you step back and look at the whole thing,
it's it's really really devastating.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
There isn't a single woman on this earth that can't
listen to Stacy and when she's expressing an episode one,
how she feels about herself and her body that doesn't relate.
It doesn't matter who you are, where you're from, what.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
You look like.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
That is so relatable. And I remember seeing it for
the first time and just crying and you, guys, just
you immediately have the audience buy in in that moment.
It's like, that's the emotional access with the audience of
I feel that too, and I'm connecting to Stacy. So
that was incredible. Obviously, in season three, Stacy and Tyler's
(09:46):
story has difficult themes and you usually don't see them
addressed on TV. It could be taboo, some people shy
away from it. What made you guys feel comfortable at
ABC New Studios to go forward with Stacy and Tyler's story.
Were there any concerns goals that you guys had.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
You know, there always concerns when you pull, as you say,
out of the out of a place where you've been before.
I mean we've been we have the familiar terror A
territory is just love betrayed. But I think that but
by being presented with a new story, that brought it
so much deeper into a family's betrayal. Right, It's not
(10:30):
just between a man and a woman, It's between a
woman and her son, and a step son and her stepfather.
We just saw that the possibility of the depths, the
emotional depths of that and the exploration of what that
can do to a family and on the other side
of it, how a family survives. It was very interesting.
(10:52):
And you know, I mean John and I talked about
this a lot. I mean, it's story arc is one
thing about just what happened. Emotional story arc is something else,
and again I think that is something really unique. Drea
to your podcast. It gives you an opportunity to go
into an emotional storytelling story arc where you understand what
(11:16):
the high point was, how you get to the low point, right,
because it's not all at once, You can't really totally
believe right that this is happening to you, except that
it is, and how you emerge on the other side.
It's a real story of self redemption and family redemption
(11:36):
that we found so intriguing and so important again because
it is something that we think that our audience experiences universally.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
And we want to be sensitive and careful with victims
stories too, and how they want to tell their own story.
As I said before, in this case, Stacy is telling
from our own perspective, and Tyler is too, And I
think having those first person accounts in this circumstance, with
these difficult stories, it is really important.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
I remember, Andrea, a conversation that you and I had
before you even went into production on the podcast of
season three of just how to get into the very
difficult nature of this topic and so kind of when
and how to reveal certain aspects of it because you
have so many layers to it. As I mentioned, I
just remember feeling like, yes, these are challenges, but they're
(12:25):
also opportunities because you don't see these types of stories
on television very often. And when I started, when you
shared with me some of the facts and figures of
people who've been through what Tyler went through, and how
much more common it is than any of us would
ever think, I you know, it started to become a
little less scary and a little less daunting of how
(12:45):
we would do this. And then I think the growth
that Tyler has shown, even from you know, the early
days of production on.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
The podcast to where he is now.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
And I think for people who tune into the podcast
and then watch the show, they're going to see this kid,
you know, nineteen twenty years old now who is just
so incredibly strong and has shown so much resilience. And
it's a credit to his mom, it's a credit to
his entire family. But it's really unique to see someone
who's been through what he's been through and under the
stress and the pressure and the emotional turmoil that he's
(13:14):
been through, to come out and be as strong as
resilient as he is now. It almost like it flipped
in my mind from being like, oh man, this is scary.
This is going to be hard to tell to. You
know what, let's lean into our strengths here. We've got
an incredibly strong character here.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
I'm curious what you guys are seeing on your side
about the audience. Do you feel like the audience is changing?
Are they becoming more empathetic? Are they becoming more open
to discussing tougher topics?
Speaker 4 (13:43):
You know?
Speaker 1 (13:43):
You know, obviously this season involves a story that is
makes some people recoils. And as a producer, I leaned in.
You guys leaned in. You know, are you seeing a
change and you know the weather here with audience's appetite
for stories.
Speaker 5 (14:01):
Like these, we definitely see it. And in my other
life before I was with ABC News Studios, I was
with twenty twenty, so I was deeply into the true
crime world. And here's what's interesting, I would say, I mean,
you could only almost chart it to within the last
five years, maybe a little bit more. People really were
less interested in the straight storyline and more interested in
(14:27):
the emotional experience. They really did not like the way
that there was a much more old fashioned or however
you're going to term it, way of looking at the
victim as the victim, right, and that it was a
story about the perpetrator, that it was a story about
the how done it? Who done it? You know, how
was he caught? But that journey of the person you know,
(14:51):
who was who for home all these terrible things were perpetrated,
that was not something that was front and center until
somewhat more recently. I mean with stories like Gilgo Beach right,
and that kind of story has kind of risen in
popularity because it offers a different bandwidth than just crime.
(15:16):
It gives it more complexity because you are exploring again,
an emotional journey, and I think it's fascinating. I think
it's partially actually an age thing. I think younger viewers
have more interest in a different kind of storytelling, and
maybe it's made all of us better storytellers.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
I love the shift that we're in the middle of
right now because having a big a veteran of true crime,
it used to be investigative beats, investigative beats, investigative beats,
and that's if you didn't have enough of those, and
if they weren't deep enough, and if they didn't drive
the entire narrative, then there was sort of a shying
away from those types of stories.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
But I think, Mike, I think you hit the nail
on the head.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
It's about great first per storytelling, and we've talked about
the intimacy. We've talked about being along for that ride,
and I think, if you've got a great story, and
you've got a great storyteller, and you've got all these
other elements we've talked to, the investigative beats of how
the legal side of it unfolded, almost become way less important.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I mean, they do become way less important, and certainly.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
They have been in the first three seasons of Betrayal,
and as a producer it's been really fun and refreshing
to work that way and not be constantly thinking about, Okay,
do we have X number of investigative beats per act?
Like has been the directive for so long in true crime,
and it's frankly, I think it's a little tired. And
(16:41):
I think, yes, the audience is getting younger, but they're
also getting more open minded to being in these more
intimate spaces as opposed to just like, let's follow good
police work.
Speaker 5 (16:50):
I mean, in Betrayal, you know this better than Anyonerea,
because you have talked to them this. You talk about
the love story, but there's a love story going on
between Tyler and his mother. I mean, there's a totally
different aspect of it right where he makes choices that
he might not have made for her, and she feels
what she feels because of what where she's put him.
(17:13):
And how they work that out together because they love
each other is something kind of phenomenally amazing and human.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
He deeply loves his mother and he loves his family
as a family guy. And he would have I mean,
he says it himself, he would have gone to the
grave with this information because he didn't want her to lose.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
What she lost.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
That's how much. That's how much he loved her, you know.
And a huge part of our show is not just
showing these people's wounded parts the victim, right, It's about
showing them as fully formed human beings and the love
there that's in the family and they love that existed there.
I'm interested to ask you, guys. I mean, I think
(17:56):
I just I spoke to it a little while ago
about I have my answer, But how did the visual
aspect of TV open up this story for you guys
even more?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Wow?
Speaker 5 (18:07):
That is so complicated because I was actually going to
ask you another question, which is like, because some of
these stories have been on podcasts, you know, in your mind,
you start thinking, oh, this person must look like this.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
And I was just talking to my mom about that
this morning, like literally she was like blown away. Yeah,
but I may.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
I mean, I'm like curious because they have created this
physical ethos around these people which may be quite different.
They may not be brunette, they may not be you know,
whatever it is. But I think it's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
But I don't know.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
I mean, I I think that however they they look
and and sometimes I think that people lose a little
bit by seeing too much, right, But in this case,
the person, the people that they were, the personalities they
were kind of let all of that once you're introduced
to it fall by the wayside, right, And.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
I think there's a magic in like converting the audio
and as an audience member, it's just in your imagination,
right what these people look like. To then see them
for real. These are real people experiencing real emotions, and
like it's just a different kind of empathy. I think
that the audience has for these characters, and when something
works in both mediums. It's just an absolute home run,
(19:28):
I think to be able to get it right in
both on both platforms.
Speaker 5 (19:32):
You know, one note about the television part of it,
John and I, John, you really have been the most
amazing partner. I mean we have had many nerdy conversations
about you know, the technique, the technique of it, the
television technique of it, and you know, there are many
ways that you could approach this, but I think John
(19:53):
and I really came to a center of wanting the
recreation to be as real stick as possible, which meant
simple things like, you know, using natural light, letting the
cameras move more like the eye would take you rather
than you know, setting the cameras on pedestals, and having
(20:15):
this more stately lit feel. I mean, we really wanted
to match the rawness of the emotions with something that
would visually match with that, and we talked a lot
about it. We really did, and John was sending me,
you know, samples while he was in the field. I
just thought it was great. I mean, it was a
wonderful collaboration and developing that look for it. Well.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
I appreciate the sort of that little extra push that
you guys gave us. I think in the first two seasons,
we were with the Recreations a little bit more in
that dream like space where it felt it didn't felt
necessarily as raw or as real, and I think adding
in a lot more handheld camera movement and just sort
of making sure that we paid a lot of attention
(21:02):
to little things with our angles. But the audience would
be amazed, and maybe we'll show some some BTS photos
of how many lights it takes to make it look
like it's natural light, you know, because it's it's every
light and the track comes out to get that look.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
But it's fun and it's a it's a fun challenge
for the team and for me.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
I mean, my my Recreations team is amazing, and it's
it's a group of people that I've worked with a
lot on various different things, and we have we have
a lot of different techniques that we like.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
But it was nice to kind.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Of be like, Okay, well, here's what we did on
season two that we liked, here's what we think we
could do better, and take that feedback and apply it
to what we did in season three. And now it's like,
I can't wait to do this next batch of recrease
for what's coming next, you know, just keep making it
feel more raw and more real and more connected to
the audience.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
I have one final question. What do you guys want
audiences to take away from season three?
Speaker 5 (21:51):
Anybody you know, I'm just gonna go back to what
I said earlier. I mean, at the risk of repeat myself.
I want people to know that they're not alone, that
it is a universal experience, what they're what they're seeing.
And I also think that Tyler, the strength of what
(22:12):
Tyler brings to it, many many strengths, is not to
be afraid of that experience. You know. I think people
can be because they are so overcome by shame that
they go into themselves because they cannot bear, you know,
the fear of sharing that experience. And I and I
do hope that people see this and realize that they
(22:35):
should be a little less fearless, be courageous like Tyler,
and realize they're not alone.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, it's beautiful. I can't I know, I'm like, I
don't think I have a better takeaway. You just crush.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah, I agree with Maryel.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
I mean, I think there's a real opportunity here for
anybody who sees this who might be through something similar
to what Tyler has gone through and what the family's
been through to just you know, see that resilience, see
that strength, and see the fact that like by sharing
and by digging in and acknowledging what's happened to you
and the control that you can take of your life
and how much power you really do have when you're
(23:17):
feeling powerless.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Is I hope that it inspires people.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
And when I say that, I say it with in
the back of my mind knowing Anthony Edwards experience that
he shared on the podcast and he shares in the
show with us, having gone through something similar to what
Tyler went through and holding on to it for decades.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
And here's, you know, here's here's for all intents of persons.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
A kid, a nineteen year old kid who had the
strength to come forward, well sixteen, when he came forward.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
It's it's really remarkable, it's unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Well, I tackled everything I wanted to chat with you
guys about. I don't know if you guys have any
questions for me and John, but you guys are brilliant
and so well spoken, and I'm just great, thankful, for everything.
Truly grateful.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
It's been amazing working with this whole entire team, and
we have many big plans to come between ABC News
Studios and the Glass team, and so looking forward to
telling the audience more about that in the future too.
Speaker 5 (24:14):
Drey, you're an amazing host. I mean seeing you in
the field with the families, you brought out the best
in them.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
You really did.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
I mean, I really loved seeing you in the field
and I hope we'll see a lot more of it.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Thank you.
Hey, Betrayal fans, I have exciting news to share. Season
three of Betrayal is now a docu series on Hulu.
It's the gripping story of Stacy Tyler and the doctor
who betrayed them. See the voices you've come to know
in Betrayal Under His Eye, streaming now on Hulu. Now
here's a discussion with the people who made that happen.
(00:22):
Hey everyone, I'm back today with John Hirsch, the executive
producer and director of Betrayal, the docuseries.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hi, Dre, thanks so much.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
It's great to be back here with your audience and
really excited about today's episode because we have two of
our amazing colleagues from ABC News Studio here with us,
Muriel Pearson and Mike Kelly. Hi, guys, but why don't
you go ahead and introduce yourselves to our audience and
also to the host of Betrayal, Andrea Gunning.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I know, it's so nice to meet you guys.
Speaker 4 (00:55):
Hey, Andrea, it's nice to see you. I'm Mike Kelly,
I leave the team here at ABC News.
Speaker 5 (00:59):
Studios, and Andrea, I'm Muriel Pearson. I'm the executive producer
in the ABC News Studios. I he's been working valiantly
with John on this this amazing series.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
So yeah, thank you for all you do. I hear
your names all the time. Obviously, I'm super involved in
the creative and like everything that goes in on the podcast,
but I'm mostly on set in doing like interviews for
the TV shows, so I don't get a lot of
the posts and like, so I don't really get to
see you guys. So it's really nice to spend this time,
and I really am appreciative. I have a ton of
(01:32):
questions because we've never really chatted before. If you guys
don't mind, I would love to just dive in.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
Let's jump in.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
So I'm so curious. I mean, I obviously love Betrayal.
I'm Betrayal all the way.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
But where did the.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
Initial idea to turn the podcast into the docu series
come from? Like, how did that start?
Speaker 4 (01:52):
Well, we have we have a small team of people
focused on developing new ideas and they're like constantly scouring
the marketplace for IP that resonates with audience, and so
it didn't take a lot of investigating for them to
find Betrayal podcasts because it was so huge out of
the gate, right, big gigantic hit, and then you know
around that time that our team sort of found betrayal
(02:13):
as fans. I think the Glass team came and had
a general introduction with us, and we quickly decided there's
a real partnership that be had here, and so, you know,
after a bunch of conversations, decided to say, yeah, let's
adapt this into a television program.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
How do you guys know when a podcast has the
potential to be a successful TV series.
Speaker 4 (02:36):
I think if a podcast is successful in its own right,
it's obvious that there's interest in the story, but not
every podcast automatically lends itself to visual or television adaptation right.
To be successful on TV, just like a podcast, you
need an amazing story first and foremost, but you also
need characters that are visually compelling. You need an archive
(02:57):
to bring the history and the background of the story
to life, and if it's true crime, you need kind
of the police force, the investigative team to help bring
that side of the story to life too. You know,
sometimes people are only willing to participate in the audio
format and are not willing to appear on cameras, so
you have to have that piece too. So it's all
those different pieces have to come together to turn a
really successful audio story into great television. There's probably the
(03:20):
other things that Miel or John could add.
Speaker 5 (03:22):
Well, I'm gonna actually speak specifically to betrayal, Drea, because
there is no question that this topic we instantly recognized
would be have an incredible resonance with our audience. You know,
a lot of the people who are in our audience.
I mean, we look at the demos and it's a
predominantly female audience, and this idea of trust broken, of
(03:46):
double lives, of a betrayal of what there's the most
intimate thing that you could possibly imagine, is incredibly appealing
to that audience because you know, people look at these
stories and they try and see parallels with their own lives,
and I think particularly with betrayal, and you know this
(04:07):
because of the podcast, people have resonance with this because
this has happened to them and the many, many women
that you guys have profiled and the ones that we've
profiled here. I mean, the response that we get is
that emotional response to how do other people respond to
(04:28):
this thing that honestly, they sometimes think they're all alone
in that they alone have been betrayed and that there's
a kind of comfort in knowing that you're not alone
and to share that experience. So we knew that from
the beginning with Betrayal that it would be successful.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
Yeah, that really speaks to the community that's developed over
the last several years as betrayals become bigger and bigger,
and that it speaks to the type of feedback that
we get both on the podcast side and on the
television side from you know, listeners, from viewers who they
see themselves in these people. They see the parallels, and
that relatability obviously goes a long way, but it's also
it's really refreshing, and it's it's this is one of
(05:08):
the reasons why we love you guys as partners is
the understanding and and acknowledgment of the challenges of taking
a podcast and turning it into a television show. That
willingness of participants, the archive that needs to be strong,
the investigative beats that true crime fans you know, kind
of want to latch into and uh, you know, having
all those ingredients and to come together in something that
(05:31):
someone will watch for three consecutive episodes. It's not an
easy task, and it's been it's been a lot of fun.
It's been a big challenge, but I think we've learned
a lot about you know, what are what all those
ingredients are, and how they need to mesh together for
these stories to really work.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
There aren't betrayals with strangers. This is a thing that's intimate,
that happens between people that you love and care about,
the people that are closest to you. And so when
we're looking at stories for the podcast, it's about the betrayal,
but it's equally about the love story.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
And what you guys do so well.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
With on the TV side, and it's something that I
often forget and is usually the most shocking part when
I'm watching it is seeing the love story unfold visually,
because it's one thing to hear it. But with the
archival and how you guys build, especially in season three,
with what Justin meant for Stacy and her life and
when she was able to provide her kids and that
(06:25):
she had made it, I mean, it was so well done.
Speaker 5 (06:29):
I mean, John and Matt have been real masters at
creating that feeling of intimacy. In the edit, I mean,
it all comes down to the beginning in the archive.
I mean, I just think John, you guys have done
an incredible job and just making the kind of fairy
tale that we all dream of, that you want that
(06:49):
happily ever after, that you want to find the perfect man.
And that's what makes the betrayal so terrible is to
see these women finding in very different ways, whether it's
or you know, I went through a few people, it
didn't work out, and here was the guy who changed
my life, who made me feel great about myself. And
(07:12):
you know, that's just that is the storyline that has
been so effective with this and powerful because you totally
buy into that, and it's a betrayal because it's the
thing that you wanted most and that you felt that
you were safe. Stacy felt she was safe for the
first time and she was never in more peril.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
One of the things we really focus on in everything
that we do at ABC News Studios, but betrayal is
so amblematic of that, is we want to find first
person narratives.
Speaker 5 (07:39):
Right.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
These are mostly women, in the case of betrayal, telling
their own story from their own perspective, right, And that's
what we strive in everything that we do. Like either
we have the victim or we have the perpetrator in
first person, and hopefully we have both right, so we
can tell a really nuanced, complex story. And every season
the betrayal, we've been able to do that, and I
think that's part of the reason why these have been
so successful.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Yeah, we always look at it as we want the
audience to, you know, be along for the ride, the good,
the good, the bad, the ugly, all those things. But
most importantly, we look at how we're gonna tease the turn,
and then when we get to the turn, we want
to make sure that the audience really is rooting for
our main character.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
And it's easy to root for Stacy when you when you.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
Learn about her backstory and you understand all the things
that she went through with her first marriage, being a
single mom, you know, some of the struggles that she
went through, and then meeting this you know, this rising
you know, star in the medical field, in justin Rutherford
and and kind of you know, having that fairy tale.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
You know, it's not that we want to just pull
the rug.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Out from from from under the audience, but we really
want them to feel what Stacy felt, and in this
case also what her children, Tyler and michaela fell and
the way that their world had grown into something you know,
that they could be proud of, that they felt so
great about.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
And then it's it makes it all that much more.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Devastating when the truth starts to come out about what
Justin was doing. And then obviously in this story, there
are multiple multiple layers to the way those terrible truths
you roll out, because I mean, it's such a sinister story.
When when you step back and look at the whole thing,
it's it's really really devastating.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
There isn't a single woman on this earth that can't
listen to Stacy and when she's expressing an episode one,
how she feels about herself and her body that doesn't relate.
It doesn't matter who you are, where you're from, what.
Speaker 2 (09:24):
You look like.
Speaker 1 (09:25):
That is so relatable. And I remember seeing it for
the first time and just crying and you, guys, just
you immediately have the audience buy in in that moment.
It's like, that's the emotional access with the audience of
I feel that too, and I'm connecting to Stacy. So
that was incredible. Obviously, in season three, Stacy and Tyler's
(09:46):
story has difficult themes and you usually don't see them
addressed on TV. It could be taboo, some people shy
away from it. What made you guys feel comfortable at
ABC New Studios to go forward with Stacy and Tyler's story.
Were there any concerns goals that you guys had.
Speaker 5 (10:06):
You know, there always concerns when you pull, as you say,
out of the out of a place where you've been before.
I mean we've been we have the familiar terror A
territory is just love betrayed. But I think that but
by being presented with a new story, that brought it
so much deeper into a family's betrayal. Right, It's not
(10:30):
just between a man and a woman, It's between a
woman and her son, and a step son and her stepfather.
We just saw that the possibility of the depths, the
emotional depths of that and the exploration of what that
can do to a family and on the other side
of it, how a family survives. It was very interesting.
(10:52):
And you know, I mean John and I talked about
this a lot. I mean, it's story arc is one
thing about just what happened. Emotional story arc is something else,
and again I think that is something really unique. Drea
to your podcast. It gives you an opportunity to go
into an emotional storytelling story arc where you understand what
(11:16):
the high point was, how you get to the low point, right,
because it's not all at once, You can't really totally
believe right that this is happening to you, except that
it is, and how you emerge on the other side.
It's a real story of self redemption and family redemption
(11:36):
that we found so intriguing and so important again because
it is something that we think that our audience experiences universally.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
And we want to be sensitive and careful with victims
stories too, and how they want to tell their own story.
As I said before, in this case, Stacy is telling
from our own perspective, and Tyler is too, And I
think having those first person accounts in this circumstance, with
these difficult stories, it is really important.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (12:03):
I remember, Andrea, a conversation that you and I had
before you even went into production on the podcast of
season three of just how to get into the very
difficult nature of this topic and so kind of when
and how to reveal certain aspects of it because you
have so many layers to it. As I mentioned, I
just remember feeling like, yes, these are challenges, but they're
(12:25):
also opportunities because you don't see these types of stories
on television very often. And when I started, when you
shared with me some of the facts and figures of
people who've been through what Tyler went through, and how
much more common it is than any of us would
ever think, I you know, it started to become a
little less scary and a little less daunting of how
(12:45):
we would do this. And then I think the growth
that Tyler has shown, even from you know, the early
days of production on.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
The podcast to where he is now.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
And I think for people who tune into the podcast
and then watch the show, they're going to see this kid,
you know, nineteen twenty years old now who is just
so incredibly strong and has shown so much resilience. And
it's a credit to his mom, it's a credit to
his entire family. But it's really unique to see someone
who's been through what he's been through and under the
stress and the pressure and the emotional turmoil that he's
(13:14):
been through, to come out and be as strong as
resilient as he is now. It almost like it flipped
in my mind from being like, oh man, this is scary.
This is going to be hard to tell to. You
know what, let's lean into our strengths here. We've got
an incredibly strong character here.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
I'm curious what you guys are seeing on your side
about the audience. Do you feel like the audience is changing?
Are they becoming more empathetic? Are they becoming more open
to discussing tougher topics?
Speaker 4 (13:43):
You know?
Speaker 1 (13:43):
You know, obviously this season involves a story that is
makes some people recoils. And as a producer, I leaned in.
You guys leaned in. You know, are you seeing a
change and you know the weather here with audience's appetite
for stories.
Speaker 5 (14:01):
Like these, we definitely see it. And in my other
life before I was with ABC News Studios, I was
with twenty twenty, so I was deeply into the true
crime world. And here's what's interesting, I would say, I mean,
you could only almost chart it to within the last
five years, maybe a little bit more. People really were
less interested in the straight storyline and more interested in
(14:27):
the emotional experience. They really did not like the way
that there was a much more old fashioned or however
you're going to term it, way of looking at the
victim as the victim, right, and that it was a
story about the perpetrator, that it was a story about
the how done it? Who done it? You know, how
was he caught? But that journey of the person you know,
(14:51):
who was who for home all these terrible things were perpetrated,
that was not something that was front and center until
somewhat more recently. I mean with stories like Gilgo Beach right,
and that kind of story has kind of risen in
popularity because it offers a different bandwidth than just crime.
(15:16):
It gives it more complexity because you are exploring again,
an emotional journey, and I think it's fascinating. I think
it's partially actually an age thing. I think younger viewers
have more interest in a different kind of storytelling, and
maybe it's made all of us better storytellers.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
I love the shift that we're in the middle of
right now because having a big a veteran of true crime,
it used to be investigative beats, investigative beats, investigative beats,
and that's if you didn't have enough of those, and
if they weren't deep enough, and if they didn't drive
the entire narrative, then there was sort of a shying
away from those types of stories.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
But I think, Mike, I think you hit the nail
on the head.
Speaker 3 (15:58):
It's about great first per storytelling, and we've talked about
the intimacy. We've talked about being along for that ride,
and I think, if you've got a great story, and
you've got a great storyteller, and you've got all these
other elements we've talked to, the investigative beats of how
the legal side of it unfolded, almost become way less important.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
I mean, they do become way less important, and certainly.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
They have been in the first three seasons of Betrayal,
and as a producer it's been really fun and refreshing
to work that way and not be constantly thinking about, Okay,
do we have X number of investigative beats per act?
Like has been the directive for so long in true crime,
and it's frankly, I think it's a little tired. And
(16:41):
I think, yes, the audience is getting younger, but they're
also getting more open minded to being in these more
intimate spaces as opposed to just like, let's follow good
police work.
Speaker 5 (16:50):
I mean, in Betrayal, you know this better than Anyonerea,
because you have talked to them this. You talk about
the love story, but there's a love story going on
between Tyler and his mother. I mean, there's a totally
different aspect of it right where he makes choices that
he might not have made for her, and she feels
what she feels because of what where she's put him.
(17:13):
And how they work that out together because they love
each other is something kind of phenomenally amazing and human.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
He deeply loves his mother and he loves his family
as a family guy. And he would have I mean,
he says it himself, he would have gone to the
grave with this information because he didn't want her to lose.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
What she lost.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
That's how much. That's how much he loved her, you know.
And a huge part of our show is not just
showing these people's wounded parts the victim, right, It's about
showing them as fully formed human beings and the love
there that's in the family and they love that existed there.
I'm interested to ask you, guys. I mean, I think
(17:56):
I just I spoke to it a little while ago
about I have my answer, But how did the visual
aspect of TV open up this story for you guys
even more?
Speaker 2 (18:06):
Wow?
Speaker 5 (18:07):
That is so complicated because I was actually going to
ask you another question, which is like, because some of
these stories have been on podcasts, you know, in your mind,
you start thinking, oh, this person must look like this.
Speaker 1 (18:19):
And I was just talking to my mom about that
this morning, like literally she was like blown away. Yeah,
but I may.
Speaker 5 (18:26):
I mean, I'm like curious because they have created this
physical ethos around these people which may be quite different.
They may not be brunette, they may not be you know,
whatever it is. But I think it's fascinating.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
But I don't know.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
I mean, I I think that however they they look
and and sometimes I think that people lose a little
bit by seeing too much, right, But in this case,
the person, the people that they were, the personalities they
were kind of let all of that once you're introduced
to it fall by the wayside, right, And.
Speaker 4 (19:07):
I think there's a magic in like converting the audio
and as an audience member, it's just in your imagination,
right what these people look like. To then see them
for real. These are real people experiencing real emotions, and
like it's just a different kind of empathy. I think
that the audience has for these characters, and when something
works in both mediums. It's just an absolute home run,
(19:28):
I think to be able to get it right in
both on both platforms.
Speaker 5 (19:32):
You know, one note about the television part of it,
John and I, John, you really have been the most
amazing partner. I mean we have had many nerdy conversations
about you know, the technique, the technique of it, the
television technique of it, and you know, there are many
ways that you could approach this, but I think John
(19:53):
and I really came to a center of wanting the
recreation to be as real stick as possible, which meant
simple things like, you know, using natural light, letting the
cameras move more like the eye would take you rather
than you know, setting the cameras on pedestals, and having
(20:15):
this more stately lit feel. I mean, we really wanted
to match the rawness of the emotions with something that
would visually match with that, and we talked a lot
about it. We really did, and John was sending me,
you know, samples while he was in the field. I
just thought it was great. I mean, it was a
wonderful collaboration and developing that look for it. Well.
Speaker 3 (20:40):
I appreciate the sort of that little extra push that
you guys gave us. I think in the first two seasons,
we were with the Recreations a little bit more in
that dream like space where it felt it didn't felt
necessarily as raw or as real, and I think adding
in a lot more handheld camera movement and just sort
of making sure that we paid a lot of attention
(21:02):
to little things with our angles. But the audience would
be amazed, and maybe we'll show some some BTS photos
of how many lights it takes to make it look
like it's natural light, you know, because it's it's every
light and the track comes out to get that look.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
But it's fun and it's a it's a fun challenge
for the team and for me.
Speaker 3 (21:19):
I mean, my my Recreations team is amazing, and it's
it's a group of people that I've worked with a
lot on various different things, and we have we have
a lot of different techniques that we like.
Speaker 2 (21:28):
But it was nice to kind.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Of be like, Okay, well, here's what we did on
season two that we liked, here's what we think we
could do better, and take that feedback and apply it
to what we did in season three. And now it's like,
I can't wait to do this next batch of recrease
for what's coming next, you know, just keep making it
feel more raw and more real and more connected to
the audience.
Speaker 1 (21:46):
I have one final question. What do you guys want
audiences to take away from season three?
Speaker 5 (21:51):
Anybody you know, I'm just gonna go back to what
I said earlier. I mean, at the risk of repeat myself.
I want people to know that they're not alone, that
it is a universal experience, what they're what they're seeing.
And I also think that Tyler, the strength of what
(22:12):
Tyler brings to it, many many strengths, is not to
be afraid of that experience. You know. I think people
can be because they are so overcome by shame that
they go into themselves because they cannot bear, you know,
the fear of sharing that experience. And I and I
do hope that people see this and realize that they
(22:35):
should be a little less fearless, be courageous like Tyler,
and realize they're not alone.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Yeah, it's beautiful. I can't I know, I'm like, I
don't think I have a better takeaway. You just crush.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Yeah, I agree with Maryel.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
I mean, I think there's a real opportunity here for
anybody who sees this who might be through something similar
to what Tyler has gone through and what the family's
been through to just you know, see that resilience, see
that strength, and see the fact that like by sharing
and by digging in and acknowledging what's happened to you
and the control that you can take of your life
and how much power you really do have when you're
(23:17):
feeling powerless.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Is I hope that it inspires people.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
And when I say that, I say it with in
the back of my mind knowing Anthony Edwards experience that
he shared on the podcast and he shares in the
show with us, having gone through something similar to what
Tyler went through and holding on to it for decades.
Speaker 2 (23:37):
And here's, you know, here's here's for all intents of persons.
Speaker 3 (23:40):
A kid, a nineteen year old kid who had the
strength to come forward, well sixteen, when he came forward.
Speaker 2 (23:45):
It's it's really remarkable, it's unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (23:47):
Well, I tackled everything I wanted to chat with you
guys about. I don't know if you guys have any
questions for me and John, but you guys are brilliant
and so well spoken, and I'm just great, thankful, for everything.
Truly grateful.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
It's been amazing working with this whole entire team, and
we have many big plans to come between ABC News
Studios and the Glass team, and so looking forward to
telling the audience more about that in the future too.
Speaker 5 (24:14):
Drey, you're an amazing host. I mean seeing you in
the field with the families, you brought out the best
in them.
Speaker 2 (24:20):
You really did.
Speaker 5 (24:21):
I mean, I really loved seeing you in the field
and I hope we'll see a lot more of it.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
Thank you.
Host
Andrea Gunning
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