August 5, 2025 • 43 mins
In this special bonus episode of Betrayal, go behind the scenes with the Betrayal team featuring host Andrea Gunning and the producers, editors, and story team who brought Season 4 to life. This conversation took place on Beyond Betrayal, the official Substack of the Betrayal Podcast and Host Andrea Gunning. If you want to hear more conversations like this, subscribe for FREE today at: https://substack.com/@beyondbetrayal1
In this candid roundtable discussion, you'll hear how a single corrupted audio file nearly derailed the entire season—and how persistence led to one of the most shocking pieces of tape the team had ever encountered. The team explores why they made the crucial decision to expand beyond one officer's misconduct to examine the institutional culture that enables systemic betrayal. They also get personal about the emotional toll of spending months immersed in other people's pain—and the boundaries they've built to stay grounded while telling these difficult stories.
From building trust with sources to navigating the complexities of reporting on law enforcement, this conversation offers an unprecedented look at how investigative podcasting really works and the lengths the team took to get to the heart of this story.
And don’t forget, a new season of Betrayal Weekly premieres in TWO DAYS, Thursday August 7th. If you aren’t already, please be sure to subscribe to Betrayal for the latest from the Betrayal team. There are a lot of exciting announcements coming this Fall!
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey everyone, Andrea here with something special for you today.
What you're about to hear as a conversation I had
with my Betrayal production team producer Carrie Hartman, story editor
Monique Laboard, audio editor Tanner Robbins, and associate producer Caitlin
Golden on how we went about making season four of Betrayal.
We sat down as a team and debriefed a post mortem,
(00:23):
if you will, only this time, we recorded it and
launched a video on our new community, Beyond Betrayal exclusively
on Substack. In this conversation, we get into the nitty
gritty details about how we conducted our reporting, the relationships
we've built with our sources, and how working on this
season impacted each of us personally. You'll hear about the
(00:43):
moments that shocked us, the challenges we faced, and why
we made some of the bigger storytelling.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Decisions we did.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
These are the kind of conversations we're having on Beyond Betrayal.
If you like this, please consider subscribing to Beyond Betrayal
exclusively on Substack.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
It is completely free.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
And you'll have access to conversations like these and a
lot more content from me, my team, and our subjects
from the Betrayal podcast. Here is my conversation about the
making of Betrayal season four. Okay, guys, we are here
today with a special video to commemorate the end of
(01:24):
season four of Betrayal, and I wanted to have everyone,
or mostly everyone that made the season happen, So if
you guys would all do me a favor to introduce yourselves,
We'll go around, starting with Carrie.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Hi. I'm Carrie Hartman and I'm the producer of Betrayal
season four.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
I'm Monique Leboard and I was the story editor on
Betrayal season four.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Hi.
Speaker 5 (01:51):
I'm Gitlin Golden and I'm the associate producer on season four.
Speaker 6 (01:56):
Hello. I'm Tanner Robbins.
Speaker 7 (01:58):
I was the audio editor for season four of Betrayal.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I'm really excited to sit and talk with you guys,
because we haven't really debriefed the season altogether, and I
have questions for all of you. But I want to
start with Tanner because I've been able to meet everybody
like week to week with Carrie, MO and Caitlin and
talk about episodes that we've produced, but I haven't sat
(02:25):
or talked with.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
You about the experience.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Tell me a little bit about what it's been like
for you to work on this season as an editor
and as a listener.
Speaker 7 (02:35):
Working on this season has been really fun, just because
there's been so much fascinating tape and things that I
would just get audio from.
Speaker 6 (02:49):
Carrie and Caitlin and realize, how did they how did
they get this? This is absolutely wild.
Speaker 7 (02:56):
So it's been a pleasure to year just such a
fully well rounded story told in in audio that I
feel like, it's so it's so hard to get. It's
so uncommon to have such a like deep access to
a group of people and to an investigation within a
(03:17):
police department, to have access to those files too, And
then just the random sort of people involved in this
story that, you know, nameless people who we can't name
because they you know, had were involved in the affairs
that Joel committed. Having audio from those people and their
interactions with Joel gives you a lot to work with.
(03:38):
And I actually told Carrie, don't tell me anything in advance.
Speaker 6 (03:43):
Every episode I get. I want it to be new.
Speaker 7 (03:45):
I want to experience the show as I'm putting it together,
you know, literally, you know, putting it together, hearing the
story for the first time, I thought that would make
it for, you know, a better experience for me. They
helped me give better feedback, but also just I get
to hear this story as if I'm a listener.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
I was going to mention that that was one of
your requests to not know anything about the story ahead
of time, and so you're really meeting the material fresh
with really limited understanding of where we're going. Can you
tell me a little bit about some of the moments
that you've found shocking or that were really memorable to you,
like hearing it for the first time.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I'm curious what those were for you.
Speaker 7 (04:29):
The one that stands out in my mind is when
Joel is confronted at his front door by the husband
of one of the women that he slept with, cheated
on his wife with, and finding that we hear this
guy recorded it on his phone or something recorded this interaction,
(04:54):
and then we have that.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
My wife home.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Do you know who I am?
Speaker 6 (05:02):
No, here's my wife, elf, the one that.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
You talk in your cruiser.
Speaker 8 (05:06):
What are you talking about?
Speaker 9 (05:08):
I'm not here to harass you, but I'm saying, Joel, Yeah,
i'mbout about you.
Speaker 6 (05:13):
Okay, my wife is there. I wouldn't want to know
if you know her, I know you're.
Speaker 7 (05:18):
Talking about I was like, this is amazing. We sort
of have talked about this moment, and now we're getting
to hear it and hear the lies coming from Joel directly,
hearing him being confronted with what he's done and trying
to deflect it, and I was just like, this is
(05:41):
this is incredible.
Speaker 6 (05:42):
That was surprising.
Speaker 7 (05:44):
The recording of the the renter also was surprising, because
I just love anytime we have in the field, in
the moment audio that.
Speaker 6 (05:56):
Can really take you to the actual events.
Speaker 7 (05:59):
Because a lot of time and shows like this, especially
true crime shows, you're looking back on what happened right
you're asking people.
Speaker 6 (06:09):
What did you do, what did they do? What did
you say? What did they say? How did this go down?
Speaker 7 (06:15):
And here we got audio where we're we get to
hear it, We get to hear exactly how it went down.
And because it's such natural tape, there's so much I
don't know, texture to it that you feel like you're there.
I could see it when I was hearing it same
and that stuff was exciting to me as an audio
(06:37):
editor because it really helps me to, you know, paint
the picture with the audio.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Those two moments are extremely intimate. It is like you're
kind of dropping in on a moment and thinking should
I be hearing this? And you're right, like we're asking
audiences to imagine because it is a lot of its
past tense, or they're talking about something that has happened.
You're asking the audience to imagine something that has happened,
(07:05):
or create a person or an image of a person
in their head. But you're really giving examples through this
intimate tape to really showcase exactly what the interaction with
this person is and was. It's really fascinating and incredible access.
So it's been a joy working with you on this season,
(07:26):
and I'm glad that you were hearing things as we
were producing, and I think that was a really great
way to work together and get feedback.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
So that was really cool.
Speaker 5 (07:37):
Could I pop in with just one quick story about
that audio, specifically about that Yeah, of course, we actually
almost didn't get that audio of the husband of the
person that Joel had an affair with coming to the
front door. So what happened when we initially got that
(07:58):
huge dump of records is there was one corrupted file
in it that I could not open, and at first
we were like, oh, this is probably just it had
a really vague name of just an address, so we
had no idea what that was.
Speaker 10 (08:14):
But I just had a feeling that it would.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
Somehow matter, and I went back and I poked the
police department and said, oh.
Speaker 10 (08:24):
I think there's a mistake here. Can we have this?
And then all of a sudden we get it back.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
And it's this insane in the moment tape. And I
just remember, you know, getting on the phone right after
we got that tape with Andrea and Carrie and Mo
and I really feel like that was a big moment
for us of this could be a season long story.
So yeah, it's cool to think about how that tape
(08:54):
is really integral to how we are where we are now.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Since we're popping in here, I just want to mention.
Tanner responded in real time. Yeah, okay. So as soon
as he listened to these things, we would get these
wild texts like, oh my god, are you kidding he did?
Speaker 8 (09:12):
What?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
So he really was like a listener, And it was
another way we kind of knew we were telling a
good story. Was because editors are sort of notoriously I
don't want to generalize, but I'm going to generalize, like
very steady, I have like a kind of a flat affect.
You know, they work with tape all day. He was
(09:35):
like so emotive about these things, so we kind of
knew from his response it was interesting and different.
Speaker 6 (09:45):
I was angry.
Speaker 7 (09:46):
I was like, this guy's a piece of shit, is
what I was thinking. And it's like every every new episode.
I was like, Wow, this guy is plumbing the depths
of human depravity every single episode.
Speaker 6 (10:01):
And I didn't mention.
Speaker 7 (10:02):
There's the tape of the two people who are well,
the guy who's accusing him and then the woman who's
sort of helping him cover up the renter who is
being forced to lie. Joel's making her lie right, And
later on we have the interviews, the internal affairs investigation
interviews with Joel.
Speaker 8 (10:24):
Can you describe that for us?
Speaker 9 (10:28):
Just met her through there and then we started talking
and then share common interests and became friends. But I
just know it's our first name. I don't know her
last name or anything like that.
Speaker 8 (10:42):
Well, you recognize the pictures, right, yeah?
Speaker 6 (10:44):
Now I do?
Speaker 8 (10:45):
Yep, Julie. You know how that's looking right?
Speaker 9 (10:51):
Is this the person making allegations.
Speaker 6 (10:54):
We'll get to.
Speaker 8 (10:55):
That, but I mean, if we're trying to establish credibility
and veracity, I'm showing you a picture. I'm giving you
a chance to take a look at it. You're telling
me to my face that you don't recognize him.
Speaker 7 (11:07):
Well, I.
Speaker 9 (11:10):
Was mistaken. I apologize for that. I recognize her because
I just met her at the prow functions.
Speaker 6 (11:18):
But that's it.
Speaker 7 (11:22):
Where you get to hear him lie through his teeth
to his colleagues about what's going on. All the while
we already know that he's lying, and we get to
hear him waffle back and forth they know he's lying also,
which was so exciting to hear the just the tension,
and I had a lot of fun building that moment
(11:43):
in audio with sound design, these questions that are like
leading questions, and it's very obvious that the police know
what's going on and Joel's just not picking up on it.
And it was so satisfying after all the what the
fuck moments before that.
Speaker 6 (12:01):
To get to the.
Speaker 7 (12:05):
I mean, it's hard to call it come up, and
but it's the closest to come up and that we
were getting at that moment, So that was really exciting too.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
I've gotten a lot of messages from you know, friends
and family members and listeners saying, you know, Joel's one
of the most complicated characters out of the all four
seasons for a lot of people. And I'm not saying
his crimes are the most egregious, because we know that
they aren't. But I think a lot of people are
(12:35):
struggling with Joel because you could know this guy and
not know meaning it feels so close. Yeah, And I
really appreciate that messaging because that's actually the point of
the show, which is like these everyday betrayals that really
(12:58):
root the you know, the pervasiveness of what's happening I
think often is overlooked. It's like we can't always have
these massive, extreme betrayals for.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
People to lean in and listen. It's these really every day.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Things that make people question, Okay, actually there's something that's
going on and this is actually close to home. Mo.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
My next question is for you.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
You story edited the season, but you also had the
privilege of interviewing doctor Jennifer Fried, who was featured in
the last episode, and you were a huge advocate for
getting doctor Fried on the show. Can you tell me
a little bit about why you felt like that was
important and walk me through you know the importance of
(13:45):
why we had her on the show.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Yeah, So with doctor Fried, I hadn't heard of her
before I started on this show, But after I started
working on Betrayal, I was interested in the psychological experience
of betrayal trauma and what it does to a person's brain,
a nervous system, mostly just so I could better understand
(14:08):
the subjects we were working with and better tell their stories.
And so when I was doing that research, doctor Frey
is the godparent, the godmother of betrayal, the godmother of
betrayal trauma. I mean, she pioneered the field, coined the
term betrayal trauma. And then the more I was watching
(14:29):
interviews with her, listening to interviews with her, and reading
about her work, I realized, especially betrayal blindness as a
concept was pretty mind blowing to me, and I think
really clicked made a lot of sense in what we
see in the subjects we work with. We get so
many comments from listeners saying, how could this person not
(14:53):
have known? And I think there is a lack of
understanding about how thetriyal blindness really functions and that psychological phenomena.
So I thought having her explain it would be incredible
for the show and really educational for our audience because
(15:13):
I had learned so much researching her. She is really
the academic, foremost expert on this topic. Without her, a
lot of the concepts we talk about, you know, we
wouldn't have this cultural understanding about betrayal trauma, We wouldn't
have these words without her work. So I was really
(15:34):
honored and grateful that she agreed to the interview with us.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
You had a really interesting job this season, Vall, Carrie,
Caitlin and the.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Editors were in the weeds of the every day You were.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
That larger perspective of keeping the train on the tracks,
and it's like, are we making it to our destination?
Tell me a little bit about what episode you found
the most challenging at the same time rewarding.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
So for me, I couldn't come in blind. Yeah, we've
talked about before on the Substack. I had worked with
Caroline potentially making her story for the weekly series, and
I had done the first interview with her that was
a pretty long interview, like five hours, and so I
knew already a lot of the details of the story,
(16:24):
but seeing it all come together with the tape we
were able to access from the police department and from
the current family's life that they gave us the people
around Caroline and her family, that was really incredible. And
I think one of the challenges that we hit was
when we decided to expand the story out to be
(16:46):
about more officers in the Colorado Springs Police Department that
were also breaking the code of conduct, And so we
talked a lot internally about is this the right thing
to do to zooml We're shifting focus from caroline story,
but there is a larger pattern here and Joel is
(17:10):
not a one off case. And I think a lot
of what we do, the work we do on Betrayal
is taking a story and then expanding out to a
larger pattern of behavior of wrongdoing and looking into how
that plays out in society and how people are able
(17:31):
to get justice or able to try to repair those wrongs.
So I think that was one of the biggest challenges,
but I'm really happy that we did that, so we
have a larger perspective and scope on the Calado Springs
Police Department outside of just Joel's employment there.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yeah, I want to turn my attention to Caitlin. You've
been on a few sub stacks, so people kind of
already know you as our associate producer. I want to
talk to you specifically about tracking down the artal and
certain people of access for this season.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
What were some of your roadblocks, what were some of
your breakthroughs.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
What was it like because you were kind of a
dog on a bone this season.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
One of the biggest challenges was, like Moe was talking about,
figuring out, how do we zoom this out without getting
too far away from that initial story and these issues
that were really asking people to think about of you know,
police officers who are betraying the badge, and Claudia Aldrich,
(18:36):
the whistleblower, was really at the core of all of that,
and I think gaining her trust and getting her to
see that we are people who would honor her story
and the story of so many other former cops and
employees at CSPD was really difficult.
Speaker 10 (18:58):
But you know, one of the things that doesn't get.
Speaker 5 (19:01):
Featured on the show is that we build real relationships
with these people, and you know, it's been really nice to, yeah,
feel like we now have a relationship with Claudia and
that we've been able to you know, she's connected us
to so many different sources that we had on the show,
(19:23):
like a former cop named John Right who really helped
us to understand the story of Glenn Thomas, and that
was a really big get for us.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I think the biggest challenge of this season was trying
to get former officers, current officers, current employees, former employees
of CSPD to participate. And when we were out in
Colorado Springs, we had people lined up.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
They fell through.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
But while we were on the ground, we had already
known about this whistleblower network, but it wasn't something that
we had really dug into yet to get access to.
And I remember Carrie and I just like looking through
all of the posts, sitting down with our attorney at
lunch and being like, look at what's out here, look
at what's online and being reported and figuring out a
(20:09):
way to make contact.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
And that was something that you took on.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
And really ran with and create a relationship with Claudia,
which was incredible. It went from this thing that felt
far away online to an interview in a matter of months,
which was amazing and I think had impact and I
think one of the biggest struggles, and I think you
guys can all probably like understand, is that there was
(20:35):
this balance of leaning into misconduct and culture, because I
do think the culture at CSPG is like the larger discussion, right,
because it breeds opportunity for misconduct. You know, we kept saying,
this isn't an example of the most egregious misconduct out there,
(20:56):
but we were really examining what does a culture do
and how does culture affect the behavior of people that
are trying to protect your community. And I think that
was the larger point of episode six and seven. I
don't know how that occurs for any of you guys
or how you feel about that.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
Yeah, I think it was important for us because in
our previous seasons, especially two and three, we've been able
to zoom out and talk about child sexual abuse materials
and how they're prosecuted or those crimes are not prosecuted often. Yeah,
and then with child sexual abuse in particular boys in
season three, we were able to zoom out and talk
(21:36):
to one at six with this one, you know, we
don't have the same kind of statistics and we can't
universalize it in the same way but there are people
like Joel in a lot of police departments, and for me,
it just comes down to the fact that if I
would call nine one one in a crisis, I don't
(21:57):
want someone like that showing up. It's a position of power,
it really is, and I think it's important to be
able to talk about those people. So I do think
that zooming out for episode six and seven, even though
it was a departure, added something to the larger story.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (22:18):
I also think it's in a lot of true crime media,
there's a really deep focus on the psychology of perpetrators,
and I think that's super interesting to find out, you know,
how does a person become a serial killer, for instance.
But I think the trap that a lot of true
(22:39):
crime media gets into with that is if it's just
about individual psychology, then it's just about these bad apples.
Speaker 10 (22:48):
And I think what we've been able to do with
this season is.
Speaker 11 (22:51):
Explore how is that psychology coupled with this broader culture
of misconduct creating these perfect storms and you know, making
it so that these people who maybe did have histories
of abuse or you know, maybe naturally were more inclined
(23:12):
towards lying, were then pushed even further right.
Speaker 7 (23:17):
I just wanted to add, you know, we were talking
about institutional betrayal in episode ten, and I feel like
these these.
Speaker 6 (23:28):
Episodes like episode six and seven, where.
Speaker 7 (23:30):
We're broadening out and talking about police misconduct, I feel
like that's also in the cultural context that we live
in right now. I think people are very aware, maybe
more aware than ever, that there are bad apples, but
they also spoil the whole bunch, as the expression goes,
(23:50):
and that it is a culture that we all experienced
and does have an impact on our lives. And so
hearing this, it's kind of like we're telling the audience
what they already in some ways, no, but we're giving
them this view of this very specific department and how
the sausage of this institutional betrayal is made, which I
(24:14):
thought was really valuable and also, if not shocking, at
least validating to the way that a lot of people
feel and think about their own police department.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Yeah, that's another reason I was so glad we were
able to interview doctor Fried because Caroline, having put twenty
years of her life into supporting her husband and believing
in the police department and his career in the police department,
bringing him food and making food for the other officers,
(24:50):
and just opening her home up to be a place
where they felt welcome. Like the experience of having the
officers who date employed their turn their backs on her
and not believe her was something that it's hard to
understand the magnitude of that betrayal. So having doctor Fried
(25:12):
be able to talk about institutional betrayal the metaphors she
used about the second concussion in like a brain injury,
the first hit on the head being the betrayal, and
then the second hit of the head being the lack
of being supported or lack of being believed by an
institution when you report or when you try to say
(25:34):
this is what happened. And I think doctor Fried being
able to contextualize institutional betrayal with real research was really
helpful to illustrating the point of the lost Caroline experienced totally.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
And it didn't dawn on me until this season. The
one main thing that will get you fired as a
police officer is not telling the truth, is lying. And
we all understand like misconduct and excessive force and things
like that, but the standard like that's there.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Is no you get caught lying, you're done.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
That was something that was a new concept for me,
and I really think that it was an important exploration
this season of why truth is important, why truth is
important in our justice system, and how that works, because
I don't think as a society is just citizens of
(26:38):
your community, you think about the importance of truthfulness when
it comes to law enforcement is so important something you
just kind of take for granted. You see someone in
a uniform, you assume that they're a respectful person, a
truthful person. But when you really pressure tests and second guess,
is that person capable of lying to me? And what
(26:58):
does that mean for my basic civil liberties? I think
that it just makes you sit with those questions that
I think are really important for our society today.
Speaker 6 (27:06):
I think it's worth.
Speaker 7 (27:07):
Noting that Joel got in trouble for lying to his
own department, to other police officers, not for lying to
anybody else.
Speaker 6 (27:16):
He didn't. I mean, he can lie to people out
in public. He can.
Speaker 7 (27:21):
Police officers notoriously are able to lie to the suspects
and the people they're interrogating.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yeah, it's a really good point, Tanner.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
I want to say with that too, the internal affairs tape,
like we've said before this is we know this is
not the most egregious example of Joel's case is not
the most egregious example of police misconduct, but having an
internal affairs proceeding with all this tape. One of the
reasons it's so valuable is because these things are often
(27:50):
happening extraditiously, even if someone could be charged with a crime. Instead,
what happens is the internal affairs process, and so it's
kind of it's almost like the military court systemily, so
like a military trial, like what is happening inside when
something goes wrong, and that is not something we see
(28:11):
because it's not often brought to court unless it's the
most egregious examples.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Carrie, We've unpacked a lot of this season, but I'm curious,
I don't know if we've talked about this yet. What
was it like for you to build a relationship with Caroline,
especially since she had gotten so comfortable with Mo was
something that this season we had never encountered before in
previous seasons.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
So I'm just curious, what was that like for you?
Speaker 3 (28:39):
A challenge? Yeah, I think one of the things that
helped was I kind of acknowledged it from the gate,
So when we were out in Colorado and she's like,
I love you, but you're not MO. I was like,
and I said no, no, And you know, she brings
(29:00):
a set to the table, but I'm like, I'm like
a fungus. I will grow on you. And that's what
I think happened, honestly, because you know, when you pour
your guts out to somebody, and sometimes I think it
really is easier with a total stranger. When somebody doesn't
(29:24):
know all the players, they don't know your family, you
can tell them everything. But she had just done that,
So me walking into the picture after that was like,
you know, having said that, she said it like in
a cheeky way, and I think we over time established
(29:46):
trust and I would get funny little tidbits or she'd
have a thought and text me, and that's when I
know we've kind of rounded that corner. One thing that
we do as a team we go out wherever they live, Utah, Colorado, wherever,
and we spend real time. We have meals together, we
(30:07):
meet family and friends, and I think that has a
lot to do with how we're able to build rapport
because you know, we're not in a thirty minute zoom
call we're together for hours, and people can get a
better idea of who you are, what your goals are,
and how you work. So I think that that helped,
(30:28):
but she did set a high bar for me to
jump over.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
I have to say, well, you know, when we first
did that, when I first did the interview with Caroline,
we didn't know that it would become season four. We
thought it would be for the weekly series. And so
once we've got this tape from the police department and
decided this is a bigger story and got season four
(30:51):
greenlet as Caroline story. It was also important for me
to really take a step back and hand do an
official pass off and says, going to be your producer now,
knowing that you were going to be there in person
with Andrea, meeting her in her home, and that that
relationship would grow over time and deepen in a way
that I would never had access to because you're there
(31:14):
in person in her life, and like, it was important
for me to officially kind of transition it off so
that there weren't two I wasn't a shadow producer where
she's calling me also and telling me about something, and
then I have to tell you she told me something.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
I was like, I've had that happen. I know exactly
what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, it could be. I
mean this is like really behind the curtains, like inside baseball,
but this is what happens. I mean, you have a
whole team working on a story and you develop like
real feelings for people. I still hear from some of
the women we worked with. These are continuing relationships, which
(31:53):
which is why one of the reasons I like being
here because we're we're a little bit more invested.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
And speak to that investment when you're dealing with working
on something so intense and heavy, that has real impact,
that can be hard to deal with day in and
day out for six months, eight months, nine months a year.
I'm curious for all of you, what boundaries or emotional
(32:21):
scaffolding do you guys have to help get through some
of the hard days when you're hearing stuff that are
really intense.
Speaker 10 (32:29):
I know, for me, I.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Work out, I do weightlifting, and that's a huge way
of me like kind of processing the day before. So
I'm curious for you guys, like, how do you man
because you feel the stress, you can feel that sadness,
and I can stay.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
With you I'm really good at compartmentalizing that stuff. There
have been a few occasions where I leave work. I mean,
when I leave work, it means like I leave this
room and go to another room. But I leave work
and it's still you know, I'm thinking about it and
thinking about it, I'm dreaming about it. But those those
(33:07):
instances are few and far between, so I'm able to
kind of like keep things in a place, and when
I can't, you know, break out the KIANTI not as
healthy as your solution, obviously, Tanner, how about you?
Speaker 7 (33:26):
For me, luckily, I have some distance from all of this.
I'm getting, you know, the pieces of the interview that
have already been like looked through by the producers. They've
already picked the best parts, and so I don't have
to hear maybe the worst elements as well. Shows where
(33:49):
you're talking about see Sam, or you're talking about gruesome crimes,
I would say, I don't think I handle it very
well in the sense that I'm like, everything's fine. But
you know, I worked on a true crime show where
I had to start some anxiety medication because I was
just like getting too paranoid about you know, like my
(34:12):
own safety. You hear stories sometimes and things happen to
people and you can't help but extrapolate that to like, well,
could somebody do that to me?
Speaker 3 (34:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
I had that on there and gone, yeah.
Speaker 7 (34:25):
It's terrifying, especially when there's so much mystery around, like
what happened to a personally? It really opens up the
floodgates of your mind to you know, catastrophize.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
I do bring some of my betrayal stuff home with me.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
I mean, Caroline was asking this about when we were
in Colorado Springs, when we were meeting with her and Suzanne.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
They because I had recently.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Got engaged, and they were like, does any of this
effect how you feel about marriage and relationships? And I
I'm not gonna lie, like there are moments where I'm
I'm really tough, and even it's any how I approach
finances and like really big decisions about bringing fully together
are is impacted by these stories that I've worked on
(35:13):
because I focus on people who are dealing with the
aftermath of relationship falling apart, and so I give a
lot of credit to my fiance. It's hard, so that
stuff I think I definitely I'm not necessarily conscious of,
but I'm definitely it comes out.
Speaker 5 (35:32):
It's also so interesting, you know, because we're always kind
of dealing with the big story on the limited run
and then dealing with many stories at once on Betrayal Weekly,
and you never really know what is going to really
hit for you. I mean, you know, we were working
on a Betrayal Weekly episode just a few weeks ago,
(35:56):
where you know, I think all of us had this
moment of Wow, this is something that's really physically violent
and is hitting us in really different ways. I feel
like I often get the question from friends of mine
of like, are you depressed all the time from all
this material? And I think one thing that's been really
helpful for me is just centering a deep sense of gratitude.
(36:22):
It is so remarkable that every single day, each of
us are talking to people who have been through some
of the hardest things that people can to ever go through,
and they are not only coming out on the other
side of it for themselves, but they are making the
choice to help other people. And to be a part
(36:45):
of helping those people help other people is a huge
honor and I think.
Speaker 11 (36:52):
Makes our work feel a.
Speaker 10 (36:55):
Lot less heavy to me.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
Yeah, Well, for me, there's really two different emotional experiences,
and the one that's the most difficult is the interview.
When I'm in an interview with someone, I really am
feeling their emotions with them, and sometimes I'm crying with them,
and you know that that's a really emotional experience that
I like have to recover from and like take care
of myself afterwards. But after that happens, you know, when
(37:21):
we say goodbye, almost always they're thanking me for listening,
and they're saying how it feels good to be able
to be heard and believed and to tell their story
in one sitting, and so that I leave ultimately feeling
positively about the interaction that we've had, even though they've
told me about some of the worst things they've ever experienced.
(37:43):
And then it's that gratitude that comes with the continued
interaction with them as they're with the storytellers, as they're
screening the episodes, as we're following up, that they're so
proud to have shared their story and happy to have
shared their story. I'm able to focus on that feeling
and not the feeling or the experience of the worst
(38:05):
part of their story. But yeah, the larger point is
that like the interview, I feel one way, and then
once I'm seeing it in a script, I feel a
little more clinical about it. It's a little bit it's removed.
It's like, Okay, this is an episode now, and I'm
able to separate, compartmentalize those two experiences out and think
about it from the listener's experience when making the episode
(38:28):
as opposed to the interpersonal experience I'm having in the interview.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
I have a question for you, Oh you do.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
I was going to ask you Drey about how this
because this season is different in a few ways from
the other seasons we've worked on. One of the biggest
differences is that the person who was doing the betraying
was never convicted of a crime. So I'm wondering about
your experience reporting this as well, and how do you
(38:58):
think about this one differently from previous seasons you've worked on.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Yeah, I mean, because he wasn't convicted of a crime,
we needed to see what was in the public domain
and what was out there, and so that's really what started.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
The hunt for the IA files.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
And so once we got all of that reporting and
understood we have all of these files and this is
really what's underneath it was kind of like any other
season because there was so much documentation, so much reporting,
like the investigation files were there, and this story I
feel like kind of met me at the right time,
(39:35):
because I think we all kind of are in a
place in time where like what is truth and what
does the truth mean to you? And I think that
this season really really explores that. Well, before we wrap up,
we have this is not the end of Betrial.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
We have a lot of news.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
So mo obviously you produce the always on that show's
coming back. You want to tell the audience when to
expect to hear the first episode.
Speaker 4 (40:07):
Yes, our first episode of season two of Betrayal Weekly
comes out Thursday, August seventh, so market calendars subscribe, and
we are going to be starting with some episodes, some
incredible episodes, some stories unlike anything.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
I've ever heard.
Speaker 4 (40:27):
Yeah, we really found some storytellers who are able to
reflect on what they've been through and have overcome things unimaginable.
So it's been a really rewarding season to start working on.
We're about six episodes in to our production, so we're
(40:48):
really excited to start sharing these episodes with y'all in.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
August, and season five is right around the corner, Caitlin,
you are producing the season, you want to give a
little bit of a teaser and when we should expect
that to launch, Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 5 (41:06):
So season five is coming out mid January, and it's
a story about what happens when the person who is
caring for you turns out to be the one causing
you to be suffering. And it's also a story about
(41:27):
what happens when the law isn't on your side. And
I think it's very relevant to a lot of global
stories that are going on right now, and it's coming
directly from many stories that we've been hearing from listeners
in our inbox.
Speaker 10 (41:45):
So I think it'll be a very special season.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Well, I have to say I'm really proud of everyone
and their work this season, and thanks for all of
your hard work. It's been kind of a race to
the finish line. So congrats to everyone, and congrats to
Matt who is another editor on the show who is
not here today, but thank you so much, and I've
loved every second of working on this season with you guys.
Speaker 10 (42:13):
Thank you for.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Listening to Betrayal season four.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal
Pod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Also, please be sure.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
To follow us at Glass Podcasts on Instagram for all
Betrayal content, news and updates. One way to support the
series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 10 (42:34):
Please rate and.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Review Betrayal five star reviews help us know you appreciate.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
What we do.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of
Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show
is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Betrayal
is hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and
produced by Kerrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our
associate producers are Kaitlyn Golden and Kristen Mercury. Our iHeart
(43:02):
team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Story editing by
Monique Laboard, Audio editing by mattel Vecchio and Tanner Robbins
and mixed by mattel Vecchio and special thanks to Caroline
and her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines.
Music library provided by mid Music and for more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
(43:25):
you get your podcasts.
Hey everyone, Andrea here with something special for you today.
What you're about to hear as a conversation I had
with my Betrayal production team producer Carrie Hartman, story editor
Monique Laboard, audio editor Tanner Robbins, and associate producer Caitlin
Golden on how we went about making season four of Betrayal.
We sat down as a team and debriefed a post mortem,
(00:23):
if you will, only this time, we recorded it and
launched a video on our new community, Beyond Betrayal exclusively
on Substack. In this conversation, we get into the nitty
gritty details about how we conducted our reporting, the relationships
we've built with our sources, and how working on this
season impacted each of us personally. You'll hear about the
(00:43):
moments that shocked us, the challenges we faced, and why
we made some of the bigger storytelling.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
Decisions we did.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
These are the kind of conversations we're having on Beyond Betrayal.
If you like this, please consider subscribing to Beyond Betrayal
exclusively on Substack.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
It is completely free.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
And you'll have access to conversations like these and a
lot more content from me, my team, and our subjects
from the Betrayal podcast. Here is my conversation about the
making of Betrayal season four. Okay, guys, we are here
today with a special video to commemorate the end of
(01:24):
season four of Betrayal, and I wanted to have everyone,
or mostly everyone that made the season happen, So if
you guys would all do me a favor to introduce yourselves,
We'll go around, starting with Carrie.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Hi. I'm Carrie Hartman and I'm the producer of Betrayal
season four.
Speaker 4 (01:45):
I'm Monique Leboard and I was the story editor on
Betrayal season four.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Hi.
Speaker 5 (01:51):
I'm Gitlin Golden and I'm the associate producer on season four.
Speaker 6 (01:56):
Hello. I'm Tanner Robbins.
Speaker 7 (01:58):
I was the audio editor for season four of Betrayal.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I'm really excited to sit and talk with you guys,
because we haven't really debriefed the season altogether, and I
have questions for all of you. But I want to
start with Tanner because I've been able to meet everybody
like week to week with Carrie, MO and Caitlin and
talk about episodes that we've produced, but I haven't sat
(02:25):
or talked with.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
You about the experience.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Tell me a little bit about what it's been like
for you to work on this season as an editor
and as a listener.
Speaker 7 (02:35):
Working on this season has been really fun, just because
there's been so much fascinating tape and things that I
would just get audio from.
Speaker 6 (02:49):
Carrie and Caitlin and realize, how did they how did
they get this? This is absolutely wild.
Speaker 7 (02:56):
So it's been a pleasure to year just such a
fully well rounded story told in in audio that I
feel like, it's so it's so hard to get. It's
so uncommon to have such a like deep access to
a group of people and to an investigation within a
(03:17):
police department, to have access to those files too, And
then just the random sort of people involved in this
story that, you know, nameless people who we can't name
because they you know, had were involved in the affairs
that Joel committed. Having audio from those people and their
interactions with Joel gives you a lot to work with.
(03:38):
And I actually told Carrie, don't tell me anything in advance.
Speaker 6 (03:43):
Every episode I get. I want it to be new.
Speaker 7 (03:45):
I want to experience the show as I'm putting it together,
you know, literally, you know, putting it together, hearing the
story for the first time, I thought that would make
it for, you know, a better experience for me. They
helped me give better feedback, but also just I get
to hear this story as if I'm a listener.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
I was going to mention that that was one of
your requests to not know anything about the story ahead
of time, and so you're really meeting the material fresh
with really limited understanding of where we're going. Can you
tell me a little bit about some of the moments
that you've found shocking or that were really memorable to you,
like hearing it for the first time.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
I'm curious what those were for you.
Speaker 7 (04:29):
The one that stands out in my mind is when
Joel is confronted at his front door by the husband
of one of the women that he slept with, cheated
on his wife with, and finding that we hear this
guy recorded it on his phone or something recorded this interaction,
(04:54):
and then we have that.
Speaker 3 (04:59):
My wife home.
Speaker 1 (05:01):
Do you know who I am?
Speaker 6 (05:02):
No, here's my wife, elf, the one that.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
You talk in your cruiser.
Speaker 8 (05:06):
What are you talking about?
Speaker 9 (05:08):
I'm not here to harass you, but I'm saying, Joel, Yeah,
i'mbout about you.
Speaker 6 (05:13):
Okay, my wife is there. I wouldn't want to know
if you know her, I know you're.
Speaker 7 (05:18):
Talking about I was like, this is amazing. We sort
of have talked about this moment, and now we're getting
to hear it and hear the lies coming from Joel directly,
hearing him being confronted with what he's done and trying
to deflect it, and I was just like, this is
(05:41):
this is incredible.
Speaker 6 (05:42):
That was surprising.
Speaker 7 (05:44):
The recording of the the renter also was surprising, because
I just love anytime we have in the field, in
the moment audio that.
Speaker 6 (05:56):
Can really take you to the actual events.
Speaker 7 (05:59):
Because a lot of time and shows like this, especially
true crime shows, you're looking back on what happened right
you're asking people.
Speaker 6 (06:09):
What did you do, what did they do? What did
you say? What did they say? How did this go down?
Speaker 7 (06:15):
And here we got audio where we're we get to
hear it, We get to hear exactly how it went down.
And because it's such natural tape, there's so much I
don't know, texture to it that you feel like you're there.
I could see it when I was hearing it same
and that stuff was exciting to me as an audio
(06:37):
editor because it really helps me to, you know, paint
the picture with the audio.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
Those two moments are extremely intimate. It is like you're
kind of dropping in on a moment and thinking should
I be hearing this? And you're right, like we're asking
audiences to imagine because it is a lot of its
past tense, or they're talking about something that has happened.
You're asking the audience to imagine something that has happened,
(07:05):
or create a person or an image of a person
in their head. But you're really giving examples through this
intimate tape to really showcase exactly what the interaction with
this person is and was. It's really fascinating and incredible access.
So it's been a joy working with you on this season,
(07:26):
and I'm glad that you were hearing things as we
were producing, and I think that was a really great
way to work together and get feedback.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
So that was really cool.
Speaker 5 (07:37):
Could I pop in with just one quick story about
that audio, specifically about that Yeah, of course, we actually
almost didn't get that audio of the husband of the
person that Joel had an affair with coming to the
front door. So what happened when we initially got that
(07:58):
huge dump of records is there was one corrupted file
in it that I could not open, and at first
we were like, oh, this is probably just it had
a really vague name of just an address, so we
had no idea what that was.
Speaker 10 (08:14):
But I just had a feeling that it would.
Speaker 5 (08:17):
Somehow matter, and I went back and I poked the
police department and said, oh.
Speaker 10 (08:24):
I think there's a mistake here. Can we have this?
And then all of a sudden we get it back.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
And it's this insane in the moment tape. And I
just remember, you know, getting on the phone right after
we got that tape with Andrea and Carrie and Mo
and I really feel like that was a big moment
for us of this could be a season long story.
So yeah, it's cool to think about how that tape
(08:54):
is really integral to how we are where we are now.
Speaker 3 (08:58):
Since we're popping in here, I just want to mention.
Tanner responded in real time. Yeah, okay. So as soon
as he listened to these things, we would get these
wild texts like, oh my god, are you kidding he did?
Speaker 8 (09:12):
What?
Speaker 3 (09:12):
So he really was like a listener, And it was
another way we kind of knew we were telling a
good story. Was because editors are sort of notoriously I
don't want to generalize, but I'm going to generalize, like
very steady, I have like a kind of a flat affect.
You know, they work with tape all day. He was
(09:35):
like so emotive about these things, so we kind of
knew from his response it was interesting and different.
Speaker 6 (09:45):
I was angry.
Speaker 7 (09:46):
I was like, this guy's a piece of shit, is
what I was thinking. And it's like every every new episode.
I was like, Wow, this guy is plumbing the depths
of human depravity every single episode.
Speaker 6 (10:01):
And I didn't mention.
Speaker 7 (10:02):
There's the tape of the two people who are well,
the guy who's accusing him and then the woman who's
sort of helping him cover up the renter who is
being forced to lie. Joel's making her lie right, And
later on we have the interviews, the internal affairs investigation
interviews with Joel.
Speaker 8 (10:24):
Can you describe that for us?
Speaker 9 (10:28):
Just met her through there and then we started talking
and then share common interests and became friends. But I
just know it's our first name. I don't know her
last name or anything like that.
Speaker 8 (10:42):
Well, you recognize the pictures, right, yeah?
Speaker 6 (10:44):
Now I do?
Speaker 8 (10:45):
Yep, Julie. You know how that's looking right?
Speaker 9 (10:51):
Is this the person making allegations.
Speaker 6 (10:54):
We'll get to.
Speaker 8 (10:55):
That, but I mean, if we're trying to establish credibility
and veracity, I'm showing you a picture. I'm giving you
a chance to take a look at it. You're telling
me to my face that you don't recognize him.
Speaker 7 (11:07):
Well, I.
Speaker 9 (11:10):
Was mistaken. I apologize for that. I recognize her because
I just met her at the prow functions.
Speaker 6 (11:18):
But that's it.
Speaker 7 (11:22):
Where you get to hear him lie through his teeth
to his colleagues about what's going on. All the while
we already know that he's lying, and we get to
hear him waffle back and forth they know he's lying also,
which was so exciting to hear the just the tension,
and I had a lot of fun building that moment
(11:43):
in audio with sound design, these questions that are like
leading questions, and it's very obvious that the police know
what's going on and Joel's just not picking up on it.
And it was so satisfying after all the what the
fuck moments before that.
Speaker 6 (12:01):
To get to the.
Speaker 7 (12:05):
I mean, it's hard to call it come up, and
but it's the closest to come up and that we
were getting at that moment, So that was really exciting too.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
I've gotten a lot of messages from you know, friends
and family members and listeners saying, you know, Joel's one
of the most complicated characters out of the all four
seasons for a lot of people. And I'm not saying
his crimes are the most egregious, because we know that
they aren't. But I think a lot of people are
(12:35):
struggling with Joel because you could know this guy and
not know meaning it feels so close. Yeah, And I
really appreciate that messaging because that's actually the point of
the show, which is like these everyday betrayals that really
(12:58):
root the you know, the pervasiveness of what's happening I
think often is overlooked. It's like we can't always have
these massive, extreme betrayals for.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
People to lean in and listen. It's these really every day.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Things that make people question, Okay, actually there's something that's
going on and this is actually close to home. Mo.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
My next question is for you.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
You story edited the season, but you also had the
privilege of interviewing doctor Jennifer Fried, who was featured in
the last episode, and you were a huge advocate for
getting doctor Fried on the show. Can you tell me
a little bit about why you felt like that was
important and walk me through you know the importance of
(13:45):
why we had her on the show.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
Yeah, So with doctor Fried, I hadn't heard of her
before I started on this show, But after I started
working on Betrayal, I was interested in the psychological experience
of betrayal trauma and what it does to a person's brain,
a nervous system, mostly just so I could better understand
(14:08):
the subjects we were working with and better tell their stories.
And so when I was doing that research, doctor Frey
is the godparent, the godmother of betrayal, the godmother of
betrayal trauma. I mean, she pioneered the field, coined the
term betrayal trauma. And then the more I was watching
(14:29):
interviews with her, listening to interviews with her, and reading
about her work, I realized, especially betrayal blindness as a
concept was pretty mind blowing to me, and I think
really clicked made a lot of sense in what we
see in the subjects we work with. We get so
many comments from listeners saying, how could this person not
(14:53):
have known? And I think there is a lack of
understanding about how thetriyal blindness really functions and that psychological phenomena.
So I thought having her explain it would be incredible
for the show and really educational for our audience because
(15:13):
I had learned so much researching her. She is really
the academic, foremost expert on this topic. Without her, a
lot of the concepts we talk about, you know, we
wouldn't have this cultural understanding about betrayal trauma, We wouldn't
have these words without her work. So I was really
(15:34):
honored and grateful that she agreed to the interview with us.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
You had a really interesting job this season, Vall, Carrie,
Caitlin and the.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Editors were in the weeds of the every day You were.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
That larger perspective of keeping the train on the tracks,
and it's like, are we making it to our destination?
Tell me a little bit about what episode you found
the most challenging at the same time rewarding.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
So for me, I couldn't come in blind. Yeah, we've
talked about before on the Substack. I had worked with
Caroline potentially making her story for the weekly series, and
I had done the first interview with her that was
a pretty long interview, like five hours, and so I
knew already a lot of the details of the story,
(16:24):
but seeing it all come together with the tape we
were able to access from the police department and from
the current family's life that they gave us the people
around Caroline and her family, that was really incredible. And
I think one of the challenges that we hit was
when we decided to expand the story out to be
(16:46):
about more officers in the Colorado Springs Police Department that
were also breaking the code of conduct, And so we
talked a lot internally about is this the right thing
to do to zooml We're shifting focus from caroline story,
but there is a larger pattern here and Joel is
(17:10):
not a one off case. And I think a lot
of what we do, the work we do on Betrayal
is taking a story and then expanding out to a
larger pattern of behavior of wrongdoing and looking into how
that plays out in society and how people are able
(17:31):
to get justice or able to try to repair those wrongs.
So I think that was one of the biggest challenges,
but I'm really happy that we did that, so we
have a larger perspective and scope on the Calado Springs
Police Department outside of just Joel's employment there.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Yeah, I want to turn my attention to Caitlin. You've
been on a few sub stacks, so people kind of
already know you as our associate producer. I want to
talk to you specifically about tracking down the artal and
certain people of access for this season.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
What were some of your roadblocks, what were some of
your breakthroughs.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
What was it like because you were kind of a
dog on a bone this season.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
One of the biggest challenges was, like Moe was talking about,
figuring out, how do we zoom this out without getting
too far away from that initial story and these issues
that were really asking people to think about of you know,
police officers who are betraying the badge, and Claudia Aldrich,
(18:36):
the whistleblower, was really at the core of all of that,
and I think gaining her trust and getting her to
see that we are people who would honor her story
and the story of so many other former cops and
employees at CSPD was really difficult.
Speaker 10 (18:58):
But you know, one of the things that doesn't get.
Speaker 5 (19:01):
Featured on the show is that we build real relationships
with these people, and you know, it's been really nice to, yeah,
feel like we now have a relationship with Claudia and
that we've been able to you know, she's connected us
to so many different sources that we had on the show,
(19:23):
like a former cop named John Right who really helped
us to understand the story of Glenn Thomas, and that
was a really big get for us.
Speaker 3 (19:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:32):
I think the biggest challenge of this season was trying
to get former officers, current officers, current employees, former employees
of CSPD to participate. And when we were out in
Colorado Springs, we had people lined up.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
They fell through.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
But while we were on the ground, we had already
known about this whistleblower network, but it wasn't something that
we had really dug into yet to get access to.
And I remember Carrie and I just like looking through
all of the posts, sitting down with our attorney at
lunch and being like, look at what's out here, look
at what's online and being reported and figuring out a
(20:09):
way to make contact.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
And that was something that you took on.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
And really ran with and create a relationship with Claudia,
which was incredible. It went from this thing that felt
far away online to an interview in a matter of months,
which was amazing and I think had impact and I
think one of the biggest struggles, and I think you
guys can all probably like understand, is that there was
(20:35):
this balance of leaning into misconduct and culture, because I
do think the culture at CSPG is like the larger discussion, right,
because it breeds opportunity for misconduct. You know, we kept saying,
this isn't an example of the most egregious misconduct out there,
(20:56):
but we were really examining what does a culture do
and how does culture affect the behavior of people that
are trying to protect your community. And I think that
was the larger point of episode six and seven. I
don't know how that occurs for any of you guys
or how you feel about that.
Speaker 4 (21:13):
Yeah, I think it was important for us because in
our previous seasons, especially two and three, we've been able
to zoom out and talk about child sexual abuse materials
and how they're prosecuted or those crimes are not prosecuted often. Yeah,
and then with child sexual abuse in particular boys in
season three, we were able to zoom out and talk
(21:36):
to one at six with this one, you know, we
don't have the same kind of statistics and we can't
universalize it in the same way but there are people
like Joel in a lot of police departments, and for me,
it just comes down to the fact that if I
would call nine one one in a crisis, I don't
(21:57):
want someone like that showing up. It's a position of power,
it really is, and I think it's important to be
able to talk about those people. So I do think
that zooming out for episode six and seven, even though
it was a departure, added something to the larger story.
Speaker 3 (22:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (22:18):
I also think it's in a lot of true crime media,
there's a really deep focus on the psychology of perpetrators,
and I think that's super interesting to find out, you know,
how does a person become a serial killer, for instance.
But I think the trap that a lot of true
(22:39):
crime media gets into with that is if it's just
about individual psychology, then it's just about these bad apples.
Speaker 10 (22:48):
And I think what we've been able to do with
this season is.
Speaker 11 (22:51):
Explore how is that psychology coupled with this broader culture
of misconduct creating these perfect storms and you know, making
it so that these people who maybe did have histories
of abuse or you know, maybe naturally were more inclined
(23:12):
towards lying, were then pushed even further right.
Speaker 7 (23:17):
I just wanted to add, you know, we were talking
about institutional betrayal in episode ten, and I feel like
these these.
Speaker 6 (23:28):
Episodes like episode six and seven, where.
Speaker 7 (23:30):
We're broadening out and talking about police misconduct, I feel
like that's also in the cultural context that we live
in right now. I think people are very aware, maybe
more aware than ever, that there are bad apples, but
they also spoil the whole bunch, as the expression goes,
(23:50):
and that it is a culture that we all experienced
and does have an impact on our lives. And so
hearing this, it's kind of like we're telling the audience
what they already in some ways, no, but we're giving
them this view of this very specific department and how
the sausage of this institutional betrayal is made, which I
(24:14):
thought was really valuable and also, if not shocking, at
least validating to the way that a lot of people
feel and think about their own police department.
Speaker 4 (24:29):
Yeah, that's another reason I was so glad we were
able to interview doctor Fried because Caroline, having put twenty
years of her life into supporting her husband and believing
in the police department and his career in the police department,
bringing him food and making food for the other officers,
(24:50):
and just opening her home up to be a place
where they felt welcome. Like the experience of having the
officers who date employed their turn their backs on her
and not believe her was something that it's hard to
understand the magnitude of that betrayal. So having doctor Fried
(25:12):
be able to talk about institutional betrayal the metaphors she
used about the second concussion in like a brain injury,
the first hit on the head being the betrayal, and
then the second hit of the head being the lack
of being supported or lack of being believed by an
institution when you report or when you try to say
(25:34):
this is what happened. And I think doctor Fried being
able to contextualize institutional betrayal with real research was really
helpful to illustrating the point of the lost Caroline experienced totally.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
And it didn't dawn on me until this season. The
one main thing that will get you fired as a
police officer is not telling the truth, is lying. And
we all understand like misconduct and excessive force and things
like that, but the standard like that's there.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
Is no you get caught lying, you're done.
Speaker 1 (26:16):
That was something that was a new concept for me,
and I really think that it was an important exploration
this season of why truth is important, why truth is
important in our justice system, and how that works, because
I don't think as a society is just citizens of
(26:38):
your community, you think about the importance of truthfulness when
it comes to law enforcement is so important something you
just kind of take for granted. You see someone in
a uniform, you assume that they're a respectful person, a
truthful person. But when you really pressure tests and second guess,
is that person capable of lying to me? And what
(26:58):
does that mean for my basic civil liberties? I think
that it just makes you sit with those questions that
I think are really important for our society today.
Speaker 6 (27:06):
I think it's worth.
Speaker 7 (27:07):
Noting that Joel got in trouble for lying to his
own department, to other police officers, not for lying to
anybody else.
Speaker 6 (27:16):
He didn't. I mean, he can lie to people out
in public. He can.
Speaker 7 (27:21):
Police officers notoriously are able to lie to the suspects
and the people they're interrogating.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yeah, it's a really good point, Tanner.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
I want to say with that too, the internal affairs tape,
like we've said before this is we know this is
not the most egregious example of Joel's case is not
the most egregious example of police misconduct, but having an
internal affairs proceeding with all this tape. One of the
reasons it's so valuable is because these things are often
(27:50):
happening extraditiously, even if someone could be charged with a crime. Instead,
what happens is the internal affairs process, and so it's
kind of it's almost like the military court systemily, so
like a military trial, like what is happening inside when
something goes wrong, and that is not something we see
(28:11):
because it's not often brought to court unless it's the
most egregious examples.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Carrie, We've unpacked a lot of this season, but I'm curious,
I don't know if we've talked about this yet. What
was it like for you to build a relationship with Caroline,
especially since she had gotten so comfortable with Mo was
something that this season we had never encountered before in
previous seasons.
Speaker 2 (28:35):
So I'm just curious, what was that like for you?
Speaker 3 (28:39):
A challenge? Yeah, I think one of the things that
helped was I kind of acknowledged it from the gate,
So when we were out in Colorado and she's like,
I love you, but you're not MO. I was like,
and I said no, no, And you know, she brings
(29:00):
a set to the table, but I'm like, I'm like
a fungus. I will grow on you. And that's what
I think happened, honestly, because you know, when you pour
your guts out to somebody, and sometimes I think it
really is easier with a total stranger. When somebody doesn't
(29:24):
know all the players, they don't know your family, you
can tell them everything. But she had just done that,
So me walking into the picture after that was like,
you know, having said that, she said it like in
a cheeky way, and I think we over time established
(29:46):
trust and I would get funny little tidbits or she'd
have a thought and text me, and that's when I
know we've kind of rounded that corner. One thing that
we do as a team we go out wherever they live, Utah, Colorado, wherever,
and we spend real time. We have meals together, we
(30:07):
meet family and friends, and I think that has a
lot to do with how we're able to build rapport
because you know, we're not in a thirty minute zoom
call we're together for hours, and people can get a
better idea of who you are, what your goals are,
and how you work. So I think that that helped,
(30:28):
but she did set a high bar for me to
jump over.
Speaker 4 (30:30):
I have to say, well, you know, when we first
did that, when I first did the interview with Caroline,
we didn't know that it would become season four. We
thought it would be for the weekly series. And so
once we've got this tape from the police department and
decided this is a bigger story and got season four
(30:51):
greenlet as Caroline story. It was also important for me
to really take a step back and hand do an
official pass off and says, going to be your producer now,
knowing that you were going to be there in person
with Andrea, meeting her in her home, and that that
relationship would grow over time and deepen in a way
that I would never had access to because you're there
(31:14):
in person in her life, and like, it was important
for me to officially kind of transition it off so
that there weren't two I wasn't a shadow producer where
she's calling me also and telling me about something, and
then I have to tell you she told me something.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
I was like, I've had that happen. I know exactly
what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, it could be. I
mean this is like really behind the curtains, like inside baseball,
but this is what happens. I mean, you have a
whole team working on a story and you develop like
real feelings for people. I still hear from some of
the women we worked with. These are continuing relationships, which
(31:53):
which is why one of the reasons I like being
here because we're we're a little bit more invested.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
And speak to that investment when you're dealing with working
on something so intense and heavy, that has real impact,
that can be hard to deal with day in and
day out for six months, eight months, nine months a year.
I'm curious for all of you, what boundaries or emotional
(32:21):
scaffolding do you guys have to help get through some
of the hard days when you're hearing stuff that are
really intense.
Speaker 10 (32:29):
I know, for me, I.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Work out, I do weightlifting, and that's a huge way
of me like kind of processing the day before. So
I'm curious for you guys, like, how do you man
because you feel the stress, you can feel that sadness,
and I can stay.
Speaker 3 (32:44):
With you I'm really good at compartmentalizing that stuff. There
have been a few occasions where I leave work. I mean,
when I leave work, it means like I leave this
room and go to another room. But I leave work
and it's still you know, I'm thinking about it and
thinking about it, I'm dreaming about it. But those those
(33:07):
instances are few and far between, so I'm able to
kind of like keep things in a place, and when
I can't, you know, break out the KIANTI not as
healthy as your solution, obviously, Tanner, how about you?
Speaker 7 (33:26):
For me, luckily, I have some distance from all of this.
I'm getting, you know, the pieces of the interview that
have already been like looked through by the producers. They've
already picked the best parts, and so I don't have
to hear maybe the worst elements as well. Shows where
(33:49):
you're talking about see Sam, or you're talking about gruesome crimes,
I would say, I don't think I handle it very
well in the sense that I'm like, everything's fine. But
you know, I worked on a true crime show where
I had to start some anxiety medication because I was
just like getting too paranoid about you know, like my
(34:12):
own safety. You hear stories sometimes and things happen to
people and you can't help but extrapolate that to like, well,
could somebody do that to me?
Speaker 3 (34:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (34:22):
I had that on there and gone, yeah.
Speaker 7 (34:25):
It's terrifying, especially when there's so much mystery around, like
what happened to a personally? It really opens up the
floodgates of your mind to you know, catastrophize.
Speaker 2 (34:39):
I do bring some of my betrayal stuff home with me.
Speaker 1 (34:42):
I mean, Caroline was asking this about when we were
in Colorado Springs, when we were meeting with her and Suzanne.
Speaker 2 (34:50):
They because I had recently.
Speaker 1 (34:51):
Got engaged, and they were like, does any of this
effect how you feel about marriage and relationships? And I
I'm not gonna lie, like there are moments where I'm
I'm really tough, and even it's any how I approach
finances and like really big decisions about bringing fully together
are is impacted by these stories that I've worked on
(35:13):
because I focus on people who are dealing with the
aftermath of relationship falling apart, and so I give a
lot of credit to my fiance. It's hard, so that
stuff I think I definitely I'm not necessarily conscious of,
but I'm definitely it comes out.
Speaker 5 (35:32):
It's also so interesting, you know, because we're always kind
of dealing with the big story on the limited run
and then dealing with many stories at once on Betrayal Weekly,
and you never really know what is going to really
hit for you. I mean, you know, we were working
on a Betrayal Weekly episode just a few weeks ago,
(35:56):
where you know, I think all of us had this
moment of Wow, this is something that's really physically violent
and is hitting us in really different ways. I feel
like I often get the question from friends of mine
of like, are you depressed all the time from all
this material? And I think one thing that's been really
helpful for me is just centering a deep sense of gratitude.
(36:22):
It is so remarkable that every single day, each of
us are talking to people who have been through some
of the hardest things that people can to ever go through,
and they are not only coming out on the other
side of it for themselves, but they are making the
choice to help other people. And to be a part
(36:45):
of helping those people help other people is a huge
honor and I think.
Speaker 11 (36:52):
Makes our work feel a.
Speaker 10 (36:55):
Lot less heavy to me.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
Yeah, Well, for me, there's really two different emotional experiences,
and the one that's the most difficult is the interview.
When I'm in an interview with someone, I really am
feeling their emotions with them, and sometimes I'm crying with them,
and you know that that's a really emotional experience that
I like have to recover from and like take care
of myself afterwards. But after that happens, you know, when
(37:21):
we say goodbye, almost always they're thanking me for listening,
and they're saying how it feels good to be able
to be heard and believed and to tell their story
in one sitting, and so that I leave ultimately feeling
positively about the interaction that we've had, even though they've
told me about some of the worst things they've ever experienced.
(37:43):
And then it's that gratitude that comes with the continued
interaction with them as they're with the storytellers, as they're
screening the episodes, as we're following up, that they're so
proud to have shared their story and happy to have
shared their story. I'm able to focus on that feeling
and not the feeling or the experience of the worst
(38:05):
part of their story. But yeah, the larger point is
that like the interview, I feel one way, and then
once I'm seeing it in a script, I feel a
little more clinical about it. It's a little bit it's removed.
It's like, Okay, this is an episode now, and I'm
able to separate, compartmentalize those two experiences out and think
about it from the listener's experience when making the episode
(38:28):
as opposed to the interpersonal experience I'm having in the interview.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
I have a question for you, Oh you do.
Speaker 4 (38:36):
I was going to ask you Drey about how this
because this season is different in a few ways from
the other seasons we've worked on. One of the biggest
differences is that the person who was doing the betraying
was never convicted of a crime. So I'm wondering about
your experience reporting this as well, and how do you
(38:58):
think about this one differently from previous seasons you've worked on.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Yeah, I mean, because he wasn't convicted of a crime,
we needed to see what was in the public domain
and what was out there, and so that's really what started.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
The hunt for the IA files.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
And so once we got all of that reporting and
understood we have all of these files and this is
really what's underneath it was kind of like any other
season because there was so much documentation, so much reporting,
like the investigation files were there, and this story I
feel like kind of met me at the right time,
(39:35):
because I think we all kind of are in a
place in time where like what is truth and what
does the truth mean to you? And I think that
this season really really explores that. Well, before we wrap up,
we have this is not the end of Betrial.
Speaker 2 (39:53):
We have a lot of news.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
So mo obviously you produce the always on that show's
coming back. You want to tell the audience when to
expect to hear the first episode.
Speaker 4 (40:07):
Yes, our first episode of season two of Betrayal Weekly
comes out Thursday, August seventh, so market calendars subscribe, and
we are going to be starting with some episodes, some
incredible episodes, some stories unlike anything.
Speaker 2 (40:26):
I've ever heard.
Speaker 4 (40:27):
Yeah, we really found some storytellers who are able to
reflect on what they've been through and have overcome things unimaginable.
So it's been a really rewarding season to start working on.
We're about six episodes in to our production, so we're
(40:48):
really excited to start sharing these episodes with y'all in.
Speaker 1 (40:51):
August, and season five is right around the corner, Caitlin,
you are producing the season, you want to give a
little bit of a teaser and when we should expect
that to launch, Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 5 (41:06):
So season five is coming out mid January, and it's
a story about what happens when the person who is
caring for you turns out to be the one causing
you to be suffering. And it's also a story about
(41:27):
what happens when the law isn't on your side. And
I think it's very relevant to a lot of global
stories that are going on right now, and it's coming
directly from many stories that we've been hearing from listeners
in our inbox.
Speaker 10 (41:45):
So I think it'll be a very special season.
Speaker 1 (41:47):
Well, I have to say I'm really proud of everyone
and their work this season, and thanks for all of
your hard work. It's been kind of a race to
the finish line. So congrats to everyone, and congrats to
Matt who is another editor on the show who is
not here today, but thank you so much, and I've
loved every second of working on this season with you guys.
Speaker 10 (42:13):
Thank you for.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Listening to Betrayal season four.
Speaker 1 (42:16):
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal
Pod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (42:24):
Also, please be sure.
Speaker 1 (42:24):
To follow us at Glass Podcasts on Instagram for all
Betrayal content, news and updates. One way to support the
series is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 10 (42:34):
Please rate and.
Speaker 1 (42:35):
Review Betrayal five star reviews help us know you appreciate.
Speaker 2 (42:38):
What we do.
Speaker 1 (42:39):
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of
Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show
is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Betrayal
is hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and
produced by Kerrie Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Our
associate producers are Kaitlyn Golden and Kristen Mercury. Our iHeart
(43:02):
team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Story editing by
Monique Laboard, Audio editing by mattel Vecchio and Tanner Robbins
and mixed by mattel Vecchio and special thanks to Caroline
and her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines.
Music library provided by mid Music and for more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
(43:25):
you get your podcasts.
Host
Andrea Gunning
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