Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
And now part two of our two part conversation with
the president of the National Civil Rights Museum, doctor Russ Wigginton,
right here on the Black Information Network Daily Podcast with
your hosts Rams's Job and Q Ward. Okay, so, I
think we've been talking around something that we need to
(00:27):
start talking about. Obviously, we live in a different world
in twenty twenty five than we did in twenty twenty four.
There was some things that we learned about this country.
There are some things that we are preparing ourselves for.
(00:48):
And I think that doctor King's birthday reminds us of
the fact that the narrative is important. The history, the
accurate history is important, and oftentimes around this time of year,
(01:10):
Doctor King's words and his legacy overall, what he stood for,
what he fought for, is co opted by political facets
in this country to provide a veneer of decency to
(01:30):
their overall political agenda, or to suggest that somehow Doctor
King would even be morally or politically aligned with them than.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
With the people. We'll say.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Add to that that in this most recent election cycle
there were some division.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
Among all of us.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
But but you know, this is the Black Information Networks,
So we're going to talk about black people, black men
in particular, there was this pervasive narrative that many black
people were leaving their historical you know, voting patterns to
you know, cast a vote for a person that you know,
(02:27):
for the most part, you know, we were not associated
with voting for that side. And you're in a position
to provide some clarity in terms of the extent to
which doctor King's legacy is being co opted or his
story is being whitewashed, or the extent to which you
(02:48):
know doctor King might have found himself politically aligned this
way or that way or the other way. So as
someone who knows more about doctor King than mostly everyone
described to us, where you see perhaps his political leanings
landing in today's political landscape. And we'll broach the subject that,
(03:09):
of course is going to have more layers, but this
is a good way to kind of start this conversation.
Speaker 3 (03:15):
Sure, and.
Speaker 4 (03:17):
One of dimensions that we are certainly lifting up in
this renovation.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
Project is.
Speaker 4 (03:28):
Because it is the building where the alleged shot was
fired from, we are we do have an entire on
a particular floor that's dedicated.
Speaker 3 (03:41):
To talking about.
Speaker 4 (03:45):
Not just that doctor King was assassinated and by potentially whom.
Speaker 3 (03:52):
But why was he killed?
Speaker 2 (03:55):
Yeah, that's important.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
And what we know is he had become a much more.
Speaker 4 (04:06):
Aggressive, had become much more aggressive in his tone around
fighting against the Vietnam War, He had become much more
aggressive around the economic injustice in this country. And we
(04:26):
remind people in that space that he was indeed on
his way to the Poor People's Campaign. And this poor
People's campaign was a unity around poverty and a fight
against poverty, and he was bringing together people across racial
lines in ways that they had historically been divided and saying,
(04:52):
you know, this commonality of poverty and economic injustice supersedes
any of these other points of division.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
That you have been led to believe. And he had
a whole lot of people who were galvanized by that.
And so we pick up.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
In that building literally with a comprehensive layout of all
the dimensions of the Poor People's Campaign. And so when
you are talking about Doctor King, it's okay to reference
back to the Doctor King of the mid nineteen fifties,
(05:31):
but it's only okay if you circle go full circle
to the Doctor King of the late nineteen sixties. Right,
you have to present this man in his entirety. Otherwise
it is to be nice. I would describe it as manipulative.
Speaker 2 (05:54):
And.
Speaker 4 (05:56):
That frankly all of us reserved the right for growth, maturity,
and deepening in our thoughts. People forget how young doctor
King was. I mean, when he shows up in Montgomery,
he's twenty six years old. I mean, people, if you,
(06:17):
if you, if you didn't know any better. The way
we talk about him, it's like he lived as he said,
he would have liked to have lived a long life,
but he never made it to forty.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
Right.
Speaker 4 (06:30):
So so this is somebody in a relatively short amount
of time, Uh, did did did did the work he
was called to do. And so we have to tell
the full, enrich and complicated story of him. And when
we do that, I would argue, it gives us all
(06:53):
a chance to find our place. We're all complicated, and
I say, contradictory individuals, ourselves. Uh, And so we have
to we have to show all of who he was
and all of what he stood for, and to pick
(07:14):
out I would just encourage people, if you want to
pick out some some some different dimensions of doctor King,
let me just make sure that you pick out his
letter from a Birmingham jail. When people ask me, if
there's one thing you would have everybody read, what would
that be? That's an easy response for me, not just
(07:35):
about doctor King, but but but we should all be
required to lead read a letter from a Birmingham jail,
and you should read it at different points in your
life because you're going to take different things from it.
But it would be it's it's it's manipulative to pull
out one off quotes about doctor King as if you
(07:56):
are capturing his essence, because I can pull out other
quotes from doctor King that would make some other those
same people quite uncomfortable. Exactly tell the full story. We all,
we all deserve to hear all of our respective full stories.
Speaker 3 (08:18):
None of us want to be judged on our worst moment, and.
Speaker 4 (08:22):
It's probably a little disingenuous to judge us on our
best moment.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
Same holds true for doctor King.
Speaker 5 (08:31):
That's that's powerful and and I think a lot of
us need to hear that, because they do try to
paint a very monochromatic picture of someone who lived a
very vibrant and full colored life, even if not a
full life. It's an interesting time in politics, state, local,
(08:54):
and federal legislators are attacking DEI, removing black history from
history books, removing books that make racist people uncomfortable from
libraries and schools and universities. At a time like this,
when the party that's doing all those things is now
(09:15):
come into power in a way that we I don't
think Ramses and I have seen in our lifetime, where
you know, flagrant racist, bigoted people control every lever of government.
And then the juxtaposition of having the inauguration on Mlkday,
what type of impact do you feel that will have
(09:37):
on the museum moving forward? What type of impact do
you think Trump's presidency will have on us continuing to
properly archive our history even as it's happening, Because, like
you pointed to, there's history that happened a long time ago,
there's history happening right now. Talk to us a little
(09:59):
bit about the impact that you think a Trump presidency
and just the state of our nation's politics would have
on an institution like the museum. And again, the inauguration
on Mlkday.
Speaker 4 (10:11):
Absolutely, and as you might imagine, we are thinking and
reflecting on and anticipating that moment or the forthcoming moments
very seriously so.
Speaker 3 (10:27):
With my historian hat on.
Speaker 4 (10:30):
I think about these issues and through the lenses of
trends and ebb and flow in respective eras. And one
thing that's really hard for us to do, perhaps harder
now than ever, in this very fast paced world that
(10:52):
we live in.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
It's hard to.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
Press palls for anything in our society today. I mean,
the fact of the matter is we want and demand
such instant communication and contact that we don't actually give
ourselves frankly, time to even catch our breath and even
clear and and and clear our minds into understanding.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
Where we land on particular issues.
Speaker 4 (11:18):
We've there's an urgency in which to respond to all
things right.
Speaker 3 (11:23):
And so when I look at it from a historical
lens in some form or fashion, we've been.
Speaker 4 (11:31):
Here before and and and what's what's important to think
about is the power and depth and.
Speaker 3 (11:43):
Sort of.
Speaker 4 (11:46):
Cemented dimension of African American.
Speaker 3 (11:49):
Culture to this country.
Speaker 4 (11:51):
It is so deep and so cemented that we cannot
disentangle African American culture for what has been what has
been determined to be American culture. It's happened too deeply
and it's too cemented. We cannot disconnect it. So even
in an effort to diffuse the importance and acknowledgment of it.
(12:17):
It is so intertwined and deeply connected that we actually
cannot We don't ever pause to think about that, but
we cannot.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
How can think about this?
Speaker 4 (12:31):
Approximately fifteen percent of the country when you look at
the demographic numbers, it's only quote unquote, only that amount.
If you just listen to rhetoric and how things get
talked about, you would think that black and brown people
are the majority already of this country, particularly black people.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
When in fact we are nowhere near it.
Speaker 4 (12:58):
But our impact is so deep and strong and rooted
and core.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
That we show we are.
Speaker 4 (13:12):
Uh, there's an effort, there's some potential efforts to diffuse it.
Speaker 3 (13:16):
Now.
Speaker 4 (13:17):
One of the things, there's some things that are true
around having that culture be so cemented and touched by
African American influence, and that is.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
When you the the.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
Facts and data are still there, they don't lie.
Speaker 3 (13:34):
And you can't wash them away.
Speaker 4 (13:36):
One of the things that that we are committed to doing, uh,
whether you call it DEI or not, we are committed
to speaking truth to power and backing it up through
the lenses of what doctor King said and did and
the data that comes with it and that will always
(14:00):
rule the day.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
And if people are.
Speaker 4 (14:07):
The fact think about this, I'm gonna turn what you
said on its head. The fact that the efforts are
so intense to diminish and push it away should make
people double down and recognize it must really be important
and valuable if these extraordinary efforts are being attempted to
(14:30):
push it away and diminish its importance, right, I mean,
you would only do that if you thought something was
indeed that powerful.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Why might this be happening.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
It might be happening because, as I mentioned before, the
core generation of the historic civil rights move those people
are leaving us rapidly. It's an eyesore on our country's history.
(15:09):
And so we want to maybe get over that hurdle.
But the reality of it is it's the foundation by
which we still operate under today. It is still very
much the foundation. I mean, we can I mean nineteen
(15:33):
sixty five is we're celebrating or should be celebrating this
year the anniversary of.
Speaker 3 (15:41):
The Voting Rights Act. How are we.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
Going to acknowledge the role of office and influence of
politics if we don't even acknowledge the Voting Rights Act?
Speaker 3 (16:02):
And how how those things happen. It's it's it's too
core to our fabric. And so.
Speaker 4 (16:10):
We are committed at the museum to what we've been
committed to since we've been founded, the legacy of doctor
King and his approach to civility, also his commitment to
speaking truth to.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Power, and and and and and.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
That facts and data have never lied, and that if
we're all going to reach our full potential, there has
to be there have to be reckonings around this stuff.
Speaker 1 (16:48):
We are here today with the president of the National
Civil Rights Museum, doctor Russ Wigginton, learning about one of Memphis,
Tennessee's most historic and important attractions, discussing the life and
legacy of doctor King. Well, what you're doing at the
museum is, you know, the way Q said it earlier
(17:10):
is the right way to say it. It's it's more
important now than ever, and it provides more comfort now
than it perhaps ever has in the past, because you know,
for a lot of a lot of us going into
this you know, next chapter political chapter in this country,
knowing that much of what we stood for, much of
(17:36):
what we fought for, much of what our parents and
grandparents and great grandparents fought for, UH will either be
rewritten or whitewashed entirely.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Again. It makes what happens at.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
The Museum UH more important than ever it can. It
can continue to be a beacon, a north star, or
a place of unbiased, you know, education where at least
we know we can again make that pilgrimage there and
(18:15):
get the unfiltered truth about where our roots in this
country and our story in this country. I think that
that is enough for many of our listeners to want.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
To be involved.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Not just right now around Doctor King's birthday, but you know,
throughout the year.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
So talk to us a bit about how those of
us who feel.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
This way can support the museum and keep up with
the museum as it continues to evolve. This includes website,
social media, all that stuff. We need, all this before
we let you go.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
So absolutely and so.
Speaker 4 (18:57):
Circling even back a little bit to what's before us
in twenty twenty.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
Five, we are coming. We are in March.
Speaker 4 (19:06):
March twenty eighth is the launch date for an amazing exhibit,
a collection that we're launching, and it's going to be
exhibited for the rest of twenty twenty five, from March
twenty eight through the rest of the calendar year.
Speaker 3 (19:21):
But we also own the collection.
Speaker 4 (19:23):
It's the buyer Rusting collection, And for folks who don't
know Rusting, his story has never really been fully told
in all.
Speaker 3 (19:33):
Of it's complexity and beauty.
Speaker 4 (19:36):
There's never been a collection of the magnitude that we
just purchased on display anywhere in the world. And the
fact that we now have this iconic civil rights leader's
collection is people will be inspired and think about the
power and I'm going to this is all connected the
(19:57):
power of somebody like Rusting. Because he was a pacifist
starting in the forties, he was leading and teaching.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
About non violence.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
He was doctor he was one of Doctor King's mentors,
he and Reverend Lawson around the philosophy of nonviolence. His
strategic vision and organizing skills, he planned the March on Washington,
his international connections and understanding around humanity. But because of
(20:30):
his sexuality, he was forced to stay on the on
the backburn, and so a lot of people don't know
by it Rustin in the way that they should. I mean,
certainly there's been some attempts to tell his story more fully,
but by having and owning this collection and centering it
(20:53):
in our work at the museum for twenty twenty five
and beyond. It's one of those, another another hook for
people to grab onto and say wait a minute, and frankly,
we want people to visit and be inspired by, but
also be a little bit irritated by the fact that.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
Why did I know by it Rustin's story? Why did
anybody ever.
Speaker 4 (21:17):
Teach me about this man who for forty years was
on the was a foot soldier and a and a
pioneering leader for the movement. That's all connected to back
(21:38):
to this boarding house, which under that theme that I
mentioned the last exhibit, I'm gonna give.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
Away a little bit for people to come visit.
Speaker 4 (21:48):
The last exhibit is called the Hope is a discipline.
Speaker 3 (21:55):
We have to train and teach people to be hopeful.
Speaker 4 (21:57):
We have to give them moments of his inspiration and
spaces in which they can be hopeful.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
We have to give them.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
Resources and the power as individuals to help be the change.
Speaker 3 (22:09):
They want to see.
Speaker 4 (22:10):
All of these things have to come together if we're
going to overcome and get over I'm just going to
say it this moment in time, because it too shall pass,
and we have to be ready and be working to
the best of our ability to prepare for make the
(22:31):
best of this moment and prepare for a brighter day
because it's around the corner and the National Civil Rights
Mugum is obligated and committed to doing that for people,
and so this summer the park will open for this
community space. King Day of twenty twenty six is what
(22:54):
we're hoping for to open the boarding house. But certainly
by by the time the weather's nice and it gets
to be spring break of twenty twenty.
Speaker 3 (23:03):
Six, this boarding house will open.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
But between this moment and that moment of when that opens,
the Lorraine Motel the core history, the comprehensive storytelling of
American history with the emphasis on the contributions and trials
and tribulations of African Americans. If you haven't seen it
(23:30):
and touched it, you owe it to yourself to do so.
You owe it to yourself to get grounded. What we
want for people to do, what I want people to
do experience is I want them to have a head
and heart collision. I want you to intellectually learn about
the history of this country with a focus on African
(23:53):
American history, but I also want you to feel it.
I want you to see some things that touch your
heart and make you want to learn more and make
you want to feel mad, sad, glad, whatever the emotion is.
And the intersection of those two things, that head and
(24:15):
heart collision is what we all need, regardless of race, gender, sexuality,
socio economic who, party lines, all of those things, people
need to have this experience. So at a minimum, even
(24:37):
if they land in a place that doesn't fully understand
the importance of African American history and contributions to this country,
they at least know and understand why they don't. They've
at least had to had to grapple with why have I.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Been led to think certain ways?
Speaker 4 (24:58):
And once people do that, we're quite certain they're going to,
as doctor King would say, find themselves with a strong
desire to land on the right side of history.
Speaker 2 (25:12):
I like that.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
Well, before we let you go, let's hit the website
one more time. Make sure people know how they can
check out the exhibit, make donations, anybody on social media,
all that sort of stuff.
Speaker 4 (25:25):
Absolutely Civil Rights Museum dot o RG. Please register for
Virtual King Day on that website. Please visit visit us
on all of the social media outlets.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
N c r M.
Speaker 4 (25:46):
Dot o RG or nation or Civil Rights Museum dot org,
and you can get us on at n c r
M National Civil Rights Museum at all the other social
media sites. Come visit virtually or in person. We promise
it'll be worth your worth your time, and we need you,
(26:09):
We need everybody to have this moment of reckoning as
we serve as the town square and the consciousness of
our country.
Speaker 3 (26:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
Well, I think that that's as good a way to
say it as any and I feel like you will
understand and appreciate it. On the heels of that statement,
when I say on behalf of myself and Q that
it is, it's more than an honor like it's it's
(26:45):
it's kind of a highlight among a career of highlights.
To be able to even talk to a person like you,
much less be remembered by a person like you, To
live in the time as a man like yourself who
is so committed to being again one of the beacons
(27:09):
of hope, to being one of the people that is
committed to preserving our history, giving us something to be
proud of, continuing to chronicle history for us and to
ensure that we have a hard reset available to us
if we need it. Your commitment to your people, our people,
(27:34):
my people is unmatched. And again to say it's an
honor wouldn't be saying enough. I can't thank you enough
for your time. And of course, you know, next year
please come back and tell us about the museum and
how it's expanded, and every year after that, and of
course you can. You're welcome to come back in the
(27:54):
in the end between as well, just to just to
hang out with us. And you know, we still owe
you a trip out Tomphis, so we'll make that happen
this year. And I guess we'll leave it right there,
so once again, today's guest is the president of the
National Civil Rights Museum, doctor Russ Wigginton. This has been
a production of the Black Information Network. Today's show was
(28:16):
produced by Chris Thompson. Have some thoughts you'd like to share,
use the red microphone talkback feature on the iHeartRadio app.
While you're there, be sure to hit subscribe and download
all of our episodes. I'm your host, Rams's Jah on
all social media.
Speaker 5 (28:30):
I am q Ward on all social media as well
Speaker 1 (28:32):
And join us tomorrow as we share our news with
our voice from our perspective right here on the Black
Information Network Daily podcast