November 29, 2023 • 37 mins
Journalist Ami Horowitz returns on today's episode to provide an update on the Israeli Hamas conflict . Part 1 of a 2 part episode.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
This is the Black Information Network Daily podcast, and I'm
your host Rams' job, and sometimes the amount of stories
that make their way to us means that we simply
can't cover everything that comes our way. But from time
to time, a story just stays with me and I
feel compelled to share it with you and give you
my thoughts. And now one more thing. About a month ago,
(00:34):
I waited into the headlines and the news clips that
were showing the Hamas attack on Israel, and I knew
that that was different. That was a heavy moment, and
(00:57):
I knew that that moment was eventually going to make
its way to me. I don't typically cover news outside
of the United States on this show or on Civic Cipher.
It is beyond the scope of what it is that
I am able to speak intelligently to, and it is
(01:18):
beyond the scope of what, at least I felt I
was able to make an impact on. But again, those
attacks on October seventh felt different. It was incredibly cruel,
and the human response to the attacks on the Israeli
(01:41):
people by Hamas it deserved the full attention that we
journalists were able to give it. Those who have been
listening to the show for some time. Know that after
about a week or so, a friend of mine reached out,
(02:02):
and after we forgive the expression kissed our hellos, we
decided that he knew a little bit more or a
lot more rather about that situation than I did, and
it might be important for us to have a conversation
for the benefit of the listeners of this show. And
(02:26):
he did me a kindness, and his mother did me
a kindness, and they came onto this show and helped
me make heads or tails of the situation in the
Middle East, which, as you know, goes back thousands of years.
We didn't cover that much, but he certainly did give
(02:50):
me a framework to begin consuming the bits of knowledge
that I needed to consume to figure out how to
best support the human beings on the ground. His name
is Amy Horwitz, and Amy, I say this all the time.
(03:15):
Amy is a person who he's a journalist. He is
a fellow journalist, and he's a Jewish man, and he's
been on my show Savi E.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Cipher before.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Of course, he's been on the show before, as I mentioned,
and initially and consistently, I believe that Amy and I
have committed to each other to be brothers. We are
going to love and support each other despite not agreeing
(03:46):
politically speaking on everything that is not and I'm learning
this daily that is not central to respecting someone's humanity,
and I believe that it's very easy. I'll speak for myself.
I would imagine it's true for most people, but it's
(04:07):
very easy for me to lose sight of that. And
I'm grateful for the reminder that Amy brings to our conversations. Now,
for those that missed the first show, Amy is a
globally renowned journalist. He produces edgy and powerful YouTube and
(04:30):
Facebook videos. He's garnered over half a billion views five
hundred million the exact, and the videos have gone beyond
just people watching them at home. They've impacted US trade policy,
US education policy. They've gone international. I know some of
(04:51):
his videos have impacted Swedish immigration policy.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
The list goes on.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
This is somebody special, not just to me, but as journalist,
his contributions matter, and I am grateful that he is
coming back today to the Black Information Network to give
us an update as he has just come back from
(05:18):
Israel and the Palestinian territories in Jordan, and since his
conversation with me initially about this subject. I've had a
conversation with Suzanne Oslam, the former Miss arab USA, who
is a Palestinian American, and she's been able to offer
some insight into the Israel Hamas war. And I believe
(05:45):
that since this first started the nature of the conflict
and the breadth of the coverage has changed a bit,
and it's important to have Ami back. And so while
I recognize that there may be an element, a component
(06:06):
of re experiencing some traumas here, I respect the fact
that you're a journalist, but I would never profess to
be inhuman. When I cover things, I feel things, and
so I would imagine the same may be true on
your end. For you to revisit some of these things today,
(06:27):
that really matters to me. And I don't take that lightly.
And I will say on behalf of myself, Chris Thompson
and our listeners at the Black Information Network, we appreciate
you coming back. Man. So you tell how are your
spirits on me.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
It's a pleasure to be back. It's always a good
time to spend with you, even when during dark times.
By the way, my mom talks about you a lot. Yeah,
absolutely loved our conversation. Yeah, she's become a big fan. Look, Spirits,
It's like I said, dark times for sure, but I
(07:04):
think that we've been through dark times before. We always
exit them into light. I think this is not going
to be an exception. I think things will get better
for sure. That doesn't discount the difficulties that everybody's experiencing
right now, and difficulties is underselling it. Obviously. Trauma for sure,
(07:25):
but look, let's uh, we're going to get past it.
I think everybody will get past it. We'll move into
the recesses of our memory. We'll never forget it. But
I think as humans we have to always look forward
because if we live in the past, we wouldn't be
able to move on as a species. So I do
think that we're going to move past this and get
(07:46):
better and things will normalize.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Sure, this is our this is our nature.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
So I appreciate you starting there, you know, with that
that optimism and that forward looking energy. I do want
to ask about you mentioned your cousin's kids are in Gaza,
and then you have another cousin who had two young
female friends that were taken hostage. I told you that
(08:14):
I would say a prayer and that I meant it,
and I want to let you know that I did
say a prayer for your family. I want to ask you, know,
how how's your family doing.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
They're you know, as well as one could expect. It's difficult,
particularly the ones who have kids who are in the army, Like,
you don't know where they are, what they're doing, They
take their phones away that you don't hear from them.
You're not you know, they don't. You don't know what's
going on with them, and of course they're they're all
very scared nervous for them as far as the hostages go.
(08:48):
I mean, I don't even want to go there what
they're thinking about and what they're experiencing. I bet another
friend from college who his son is there also, I
haven't had a chance to talk to, but he's been
pretty public about it. Uh yeah, I know that's those
are those are the those things I don't want to
try not to think about too much because it's what
(09:09):
they're going through is at this point unimaginable. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Sure, Well, before we start, you know, peeling back the
layers of this new conversation we're about to have it,
I feel it's important to start there and to remind
you that you are still in my prayers and the
prayers of lots of people, your people specifically, but you individually.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
So anyway, likewise, thank you, brother, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
So let's start this conversation where I believe most people
would want us to start the conversation. I mentioned that
the dynamic that's probably a better word of this war
has changed significantly since let's call it October fourteenth fish,
(10:03):
around the time we first spoke. At that time, I
was still being brought up to speed on the attacks
of October seventh and those atrocities that were committed by Hamas.
The Jewish people and the people of Israel were still
(10:24):
suffering and feeling the effects of that. Since then, Israel
has responded with overwhelming force. And one of the things
that I've parroted that I learned from you on various
(10:44):
platforms and in various conversations is that, at least at
that time, according to the data that I received from you,
that there was a human cost to rooting out Hamas,
but that human cost wasn't good or or remember you
said that, but the human cost was about one civilian
casualty her one Hamas soldier given the tactics that Hamas
(11:09):
was using, and that was something that Israel was proud of,
but not too proud of because ideas historically, historically historically Okay,
so the numbers are now.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
But they'll probably be similar, but because the same environment.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
But yeah, historically, okay, historically, So that's that might have
been something that I left out. But so you're saying
that right now that those numbers might might be the same.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Yeah, we look, we have no The problem is is
that through the fog of war, you don't have a
sense of what the of what the numbers really are
the problem with So right now there's there. And by
the way, everything I say going forward, we're talking about
civilian casualties, I want to make very clear that that
does not diminish from the pain and the suffering of
(11:55):
and that every single civilian casualty, right, That's.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
That's why you're here, and that's why you're on the show.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Sometimes when I talk data, it may seem like, well,
you might not you might you don't care about the
babies being killed, and that's not that's not the situation
at all. But sometimes when you talk about data, you
have to devoid yourself of emotion and talk and contextualize things,
and that does not diminish from any kind of pain
and suffering that somebody would would have felt from their
parents or their child being killed in these things. I
(12:25):
want to make that you know clear. But the problem
with the fog of war, particularly when you're when you are.
The only numbers we're getting are from Gazam and the
only numbers we're getting are from Hamas run agencies, so
it's hard to know what's real or not real. Although
let's let's assume going forward that the numbers we're hearing
from Gaza are all accurate. Ten eleven thousand civilians have
(12:48):
been killed thus far, which is a not a small number,
right at all, and that roughly the same numbers kind
of hold. Five thousand Hamas terrorists have been killed, five
thousand civilians have been killed, something like that. Look it's again,
I can't say this enough. Every single civil innocent civilian
(13:11):
life that's taken is a tragedy. And that israelies. And
I was just in Israel, right, and I spend time
with different types of people in Israel, people on the left,
people on the right, people in the center, eight political
people one thing that there's a number of things that
they have become unified on. Obviously, the trauma and the
tragedy of October seventh is something that has united Israel
(13:32):
in a way we haven't seen in a long time,
particularly because we were coming off a time of division
similar to what we're seeing here in the US. Israel
has become the last couple of years extremely divided on
a couple particular political issues, issues that I think, by
the way, I think both sides have overblown. I don't
think the division is as great as people make it out.
I think the same thing here. I think we tend
(13:54):
to go to our political prior sometimes go to our
political corners, and we think the division between us is
larger than it actually is. And I think that's the
case in Israel and here. But that's side the point.
The other thing that there was unanimity on was the
need to have, as you said, overwhelming force to show
(14:14):
because this is something that has repeated itself. This is
October seventh is not an outlier. It was only by
the numbers, but in terms of the attempts to snuff
out the state of Israel, this has been hard for
the course for since the inception of the State of Israel,
Israel has gotten better at stopping it. Prior to the
(14:35):
security fence that was put up between the West Bank
and Israel, the two or three years prior to that,
which is what precipitated putting up the wall in some
places security fence and others was it's hard to you
probably don't remember, but every single week, buses and cafes
(14:55):
were being blown a smither rains, hundreds of people were
being killed in the street, indiscriminate children, adults, whoever. It
was a campaign of terror for two years, which led
hundreds and hundreds I think certainly over a thousand civilians
over the course of that two years dead, and that's
what led to Israel putting up a security barrier, which
(15:18):
cut down terrorist attacks. Biden I think it was like
ninety eight percent. It was a significant and this was
criticized for that, saying how could you put up a
wall on a border, And Israe's response was this stopped
the wholesale slaughter going on in our cities and Jerusalem
and Tel avivon all over the country. So Israel has
gotten better at stopping the attacks, but the motivation and
(15:42):
the continuation of attempts to slaughter Jews in Israel has
never stopped October seven.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Yeah, sorry, go ahead, no no, So they would eat me
alive if I didn't ask this arbit for me to
compel you to answer on behalf of the state of
Israel or answer on behalf of all Jewish people. So
that is not what I'm asking here. I'm asking for
(16:08):
your personal opinion so that we can kind of understand
what it's like from a perspective such as yours, a
Jewish man who's a journalist who's been on the ground there,
who can give as fair and and balanced an answer
as he can. There are people that say that Hamas
(16:30):
exists so that Palestine can be free of the oversight,
the Israeli oversight of Palestine. Israel or sorry, Hamas was elected,
and then they were elected under certain terms and have
since become more radicalized since that election. And most people
(16:57):
that are alive on the ground. Indeed, more than half
of the people that paid the price or that attack
on October ninth, in terms of the Palestinian people were
not even old enough to vote for Hamas, and not
one percent of the population voted for them. That was
old enough. But there were people whould say that Hamas
(17:21):
is yet set on freedom by any means necessary, and
not that Hamas wants Israel to collapse. So what do
you say to that narrative, to that idea that Hamas
does not mind if Israel exists. They just want Palaestin
(17:44):
to be self determined, Palestine to be self determined.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Oh that's so wrong. I don't even know where to start.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
So help us.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Oh so okay. First of all, Hamas has not been
more radicalized since its election. Hamas, since its exception, its
only goal was to kill every single Jew in the
state of Israel. This is in their charter. This is
not This is not like something I'm coming up with it.
It's in there, literally written their charter. They were always
created as a terrorist group. And they've not become more radicalized.
(18:14):
They've they've always been this way since inception of Hamas. No,
there they have. And again this is all in their charter.
And this is all not just in their charter. This
is me speaking with Hamas leaders over time.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yet you know better than than we do.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Yeah, there there is zero intention, zero intention of sharing
the the land between the river and the sea with
the Jews.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
The only intention by Hamas is to wipe out every
single Jew in that area of land. Is all it
has been, always will be. There's no Hamas is not
into negotiations. Hamas isn't into it's the freedom of the
palasaying people in the in the land we've decided we've
defined as Palestine, the West Bank and Gaza. It's it's
(19:00):
not Ramala and Janine and Gaza City, it's Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haipha,
a lot, it's the entire kit kaboodle. That's they're simply
their only goal. They're not. There's not even speculation. It's
is they're saying it. Yeah, that's not. That's not. One
can argue that with with the palat the authority for sure,
(19:20):
but not with.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
So.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
So while we're here, so I came across a bit
of information. I want to just let you know where
where this comes from. Came across a bit of information
that that same bit that I told you that more
than half the population wasn't even alive, uh during the
last election. And you know, I will get to the
(19:45):
point where we're discussing who's paying the price, the physical
price in terms of loss of life on the ground
in Palestine. But there's a a common.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Rebuttal to.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Calls for a ceasefire or calls to like kind of
not be so od with the bombing in Palestine, which
is well, everyone is culpable in this war because they
elected Hamas. Right now, I know full well that Hamas
(20:23):
is a terrorist organization Hamas. There is no rewriting of
October seventh. To me, that's not a thing, nor would
that be a thing to anybody that I would share
a microphone with. That's not something that people would be
able to get off. But as I was learning this
information about how the age is skewed in Palestine, I
(20:47):
learned a little bit about Hamas, and I was able
to see some video clips from the eighties when around
the time when Hamas was first being founded, and some
of the talking points by the Hamas leadership suggested that
they were once less radical than they are now. Now
(21:12):
that might have been just for the purposes of propaganda
or for the purposes of winning an election or whatever.
As you mentioned, you know they're charter and you've spent
time with them. So I'm not trying to suggest that
anyone knows more than you, But certainly the way that
that was framed suggests that they have since become more radicalized,
and that they started off certainly more aggressive. That's perhaps
(21:38):
part of what got them elected. They were more aggressive
in their tactics in terms of gaining some self determination
for Palestine, and that's probably what the people were hoping for.
But they have since moved further I guess that would
be to the right and become more of a terrorist
organization since then. And so I just wanted to suggest
(21:59):
that that's where that came from. But while we're here,
what do you say to people who or what how
do you feel about that narrative that the people of
Palestine are as culpable in this war and they are
paying the price for electing Hamas.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
I don't think that's fair. I think that the Palacian people,
and we talking about the people and God, the Palasings
and Gaza obviously, yes, yeah, it's not it's not it's
not fair the Palestinians, Yes, they were elected. The rule
when it comes to democracy in the air world is
(22:40):
very simple. You get an election once that's it. You know,
you can go look, you can look at Algeria. Same
thing like the rare times you've had elections. In their world,
you get one election and then you're done. And this
has been the case with with Hamas, So they haven't.
It's not like they're coming back to you know, to
(23:00):
the electorate you know, every four or five years, right,
you know, it's been almost two decades. Having said that,
there is you know, when I was in the Pastian
territories and in the West Bank, I was asking Palestinians.
I said, you, guys, how do you how does it feel?
How do you feel now? Politically right in the West
Bank if there was an election today between Hamas and
(23:22):
the pasting Authority, who would you vote for? And overwhelmingly
anybody above fifty we're leaned toward the passing Authority and
everybody under fifty was vote Hamas today. Like it's it's
amazing to me that this, what they've seen happen in
the last month, that they've witnessed, has not erode to
(23:44):
the support of Kamas. In fact, if I would argue,
it has seemed to have strengthened Kamas support in the
West Bank, which is why a lot of people in
the West Bank are being arrested. Nobody would talk to
me on camera. Really had one guy talking on camera
because they said, if we show support for Caramas on camera,
the past authority will arrest us because there's a real
battle between an ideological battle for the soul of the
(24:05):
past is between these two hinonies. No, it's so look,
it's it's not fair in the sense that I don't
hold the past people culpable for what happened. Having said
that this is the way war works. Do I blame
every German for electing Hitler? Uh? Not really, but they
(24:25):
paid the price for it for sure, just the way
war is that when you're in war, this is what happens.
The price ultimately paid is the population.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
So I think that the part that has.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Really shifted is the images that are coming out of
Gaza right when you see the bodies of It's been
very difficult for me to articulate the horrors of what
I've seen, but I believe that as a journalist, you
(25:10):
know what I'm referring to. When you see shoes still
attached to a limb or little tiny body parts. Do
(25:33):
you feel that the response given the numbers, if you
do accept the numbers, is true, do you feel that
the response is still appropriate from Israel.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
So okay. First of all, I will the thing I
was gonna finished before by the unanimity of Israel on
certain topics, And one of the topics that are unified
on aside from prosecuting this war, is the general sadness
the country feels about the civilian casualties in Gaza, the
(26:11):
pain that they feel seeing these images. They see the
images like everybody else. Is palpable. Having said that, look,
the images are horrific. I told you before and again
when I move into the next phase of kind of
contextualizing the war, I don't want to diminish the pain,
the suffering, and the horrifying things that we've seen in Gaza.
(26:35):
But I guess, okay. The first argument I think is
important to talk about is you hear a lot from
people in the media that Israel is trying to kill civilians.
This is the first thing I wanted to spell. It's
targeting civilians, that it wants to have a high civilian
death count. It's so absurd on a number of levels,
(26:59):
and the most obvious one is if Israel wanted to
kill civilians, they'd all be dead tomorrow. Israel is the
capability to turn Gaza into glass. There wouldn't be a
single human breathing in Gaza tomorrow without nuclear weapons, I mean,
with conventional weapons, if it so choose choose right. A
(27:21):
couple things. First of all, the image you see of
like neighborhoods in rubble, which are real. I will say
that I've gone to Gaza after not dissimilar attacks before,
and what you tend to notice is, yes, there are
these streets that have been turned to rubble. But if
you look to the left and to the right, you
see vast tracks of buildings completely intact. Right, you're seeing
(27:44):
the narrow scope of this area, this several blocks area
which Israel deemed a terrorist haven needed to be leveled.
But really right around that you see tons of buildings
completely normal. Right, everything is is If you looked in
one direction, you will see nothing different. You turn around
behind you, you see devastation. Israel has dropped again. To
(28:09):
give context, Israel has dropped over twenty five thousand bombs
major twenty five thousand. Think about that, how many bombs
that is, you talk about two hundred five hundred pound bombs,
which enormous destructive power. When you think about the civilian
death count, let's say, the civilian death count five six
thousand with twenty five thousand, five hundred pound bombs, that
(28:32):
is not a mass carpet bombing of a city. That
is as surgical as one can possibly humanly be.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
So how do you make that argument on me because
you said twenty five thousand bombs and that means five thousand,
That means five bombs per every one Hamas soldier.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Right. Well, remember they're not trott They're actually not looking
to kill Evenhama soldiers. They're looking at to take out infrastructure.
That's what the bombing is for. The bombing isn't really
killing Kamas soldier is just okay, an added benefit, And
so they want to kill Kamas terrorists. But the bombing
is specific for specific tasks. There are mostly to take
(29:17):
out the terror tunnels and the infrastructure.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
So now what we have is a conversation. I want
to make sure that you and our listeners know the
people that I know in my life. I've told you
this before, but the human beings that I know in
my life are Jewish. I know one Palestinian woman that's
the only person I've ever met in my life. She
(29:41):
is a kind woman, she's a good woman. I believe
in her plight and the plight of her people, as
well as the people I actually know the Jewish people, right,
So this comes from a place of love. But I
have to ask, Yeah, is it the case? I remember,
I'm talking to you. You don't have to answer on behalf
of anybody except Ami Horowitz?
Speaker 2 (30:00):
But is it the case that the other side of this.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Coin, the loss of life of people that are not
culpable to any degree whatsoever, is worth infrastructure Because it's
the human beings that power the system, not the infrastructure.
A gun will not shoot itself if you shoot the
gun and it'll still be able to shoot, or you can
repair to whatever. But if you shoot the person wielding
the gun, then you've solved the problem. In other words,
(30:27):
is the human cost worth infrastructure? Like we're going to
bomb this area because it's a it's a it's a haven,
and we're just gonna take the good guys out with
the bad guys, or the non culpable individuals out with
the potentially culpable ones. Five bombs for everyone, So you
know that the numbers make it seem very very cruel,
(30:50):
and the philosophy that justifies this I completely understand and
respect right to exist, absolutely, right to feel safe. Absolutely
at a certain point, is there not a tipping point
where human beings, human beings on the ground in Israel
(31:11):
who have dissented from their political part of human beings
on the ground here, who can look at that, look
at those limbs and say, Okay, this is od, this
is and then to hear that the infrastructure is the
target and we're just going to forget the people. We're
(31:32):
gonna wipe the infrastructure out with a military that has
the intelligence and the capability to indeed be more surgical.
Does that not feel like we're kind of leapfrogging the
human element, like the emotional element, Like are we doing
more harm than good? Are these questions that you wrestle
with only thank you for that, man, because that's the
(31:54):
part where we just need a little air out of
the ball.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Man. It just I don't like the worth the thing.
But yes, the answer is yes, it is. You say infrastructure.
I know it sounds dry, but the infrastructure, but the
infant you have to get understand. The infrastructure is what
allows when I was in Israel fifteen twenty rockets every
(32:17):
single day. We're going to tell Aviv when I was there.
That's the infrastructure. The infrastructure is what allows Hamas terrorists
to slaughter Jews. Infrastructure. Without infrastructure, they don't that's their oxygen.
They don't exist. And that's I know, sounds weird. It's
the most humane way of actually dealing and prosecuting a
war like this, because otherwise otherwise it'd be random, right,
(32:41):
Otherwise you're just bombing randomly like we've been in World
War Two, and the civilian count would be in one
hundred of thousands, not ten thousands. But look, the problem
is is that Haamah. And this again, this is not me.
This is Hamas, not only in their charter, but Hammas
saying this out loud. They've said this over the years,
they said it. Just recently they have. They want to
have a high the high as high as civilian death
(33:03):
toll as possible. They want not Asraeli Palastidian death holl
because it allows them to look like martyrs. It allows
them to present themselves as victims to the world. And
they don't give two rays. They don't give two about
their own civilians. I promise you Israel cares more about
(33:24):
Palestini casualties than Hamas does. Hamas puts them in the
harm's way in order to gin up the civilian death counts.
There's a reason why Hamas puts their infrastructure inside hospitals
and schools and mosques. They don't do that by accident.
They don't do it because they got a better deal
on their lease. They do because they want Israel to
(33:46):
attack their civilian targets. I mean, that's that's the only
reason why. Absolutely. I know it sounds to somebody who
it sounds ridiculous. I know it sounds fantasy. Like fantasy,
it is absolute, god honest truth.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
I believe you.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I remember that part of our conversation, when we were
first articulating it and then looking at their position relative
to the might of the military of Israel, you realize
that that actually, as cruel as it is, it's probably
(34:27):
something that like if they can control the narrative that
they can't control anything else, then they might give them
a fighting chance. So they sacrifice their own people, as
awful as that is, and they put themselves set themselves
up in schools and hospitals so that you know, it
could it could get the largest emotional response from the
global community.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
Has worked brilliantly, has worked brilliantly.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
I don't want to give them credit, but you know
that that's that's the tactic. It seems from.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
A macabre perspective, they have done it very well.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
There you go from the macab let me again.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Yeah, go ahead, I want to say that again. It's
it's look, I've had this debate with a number of people,
and and the answer to when I say we break
down the numbers again, it's like, and this is and
our conversation was really before the the force really got
(35:21):
amped up. Response yet, right, but it still holds true.
I mean, the numbers that I'm showing you again, it's
it's they're not it's not deniable that to say that
if you're dropping twenty five thousand bombs and you have
five thousand civillions or six thousand billions that are killed,
it's it's it's undeniable that they're not targeting civilians, right
because and again it's again there's twenty one thousand bombs.
(35:41):
That's enough to wipe out pretty much all of guys.
But they're they're being used very surgically. I know when
you see the images, it doesn't seem like that. I
get it. The human response looks and says, this is random,
this is Carpon bombing. I can just promise you this
is not. And the numbers you can if you really
break the numbers down, you can see that doesn't It
isn't random carb bombing. When you look at how many
(36:03):
people are being killed relative to the force being used,
you get a sense that there is something beyond those numbers. Again,
it's not I know that. It's easy to say, but
kids are being killed, Like, I get it, But that's
not a real response to your war. When your war,
people are killed, civilians are killed. In every single word
(36:24):
we have.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
All right, now, this is the but the difference is
not okay.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
I'm sorry the last. But the difference is on one side,
the kids and the siblings are being are the specific targets,
and on one side they're not. That's that's ultimately the
moral difference.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
So I'm going to push back a little bit right here.
But first I have to insert a pause. In fact,
we might even take a break and finish this with
a part too, because I got something for that.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
I want it. I want it.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
This has been a production of the Black Information Network.
Today's show is produced by Chris Thompson.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Have some thoughts you'd like to share, use the red
microphone talkback feature on the iHeartRadio app. While you're there,
be sure to hit subscribe and download all of our episodes.
I am your host ramses Jah on all social media.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Join us tomorrow as we share our news with our
voice from our perspective right here on the Black Information
Network Daily Podcast
This is the Black Information Network Daily podcast, and I'm
your host Rams' job, and sometimes the amount of stories
that make their way to us means that we simply
can't cover everything that comes our way. But from time
to time, a story just stays with me and I
feel compelled to share it with you and give you
my thoughts. And now one more thing. About a month ago,
(00:34):
I waited into the headlines and the news clips that
were showing the Hamas attack on Israel, and I knew
that that was different. That was a heavy moment, and
(00:57):
I knew that that moment was eventually going to make
its way to me. I don't typically cover news outside
of the United States on this show or on Civic Cipher.
It is beyond the scope of what it is that
I am able to speak intelligently to, and it is
(01:18):
beyond the scope of what, at least I felt I
was able to make an impact on. But again, those
attacks on October seventh felt different. It was incredibly cruel,
and the human response to the attacks on the Israeli
(01:41):
people by Hamas it deserved the full attention that we
journalists were able to give it. Those who have been
listening to the show for some time. Know that after
about a week or so, a friend of mine reached out,
(02:02):
and after we forgive the expression kissed our hellos, we
decided that he knew a little bit more or a
lot more rather about that situation than I did, and
it might be important for us to have a conversation
for the benefit of the listeners of this show. And
(02:26):
he did me a kindness, and his mother did me
a kindness, and they came onto this show and helped
me make heads or tails of the situation in the
Middle East, which, as you know, goes back thousands of years.
We didn't cover that much, but he certainly did give
(02:50):
me a framework to begin consuming the bits of knowledge
that I needed to consume to figure out how to
best support the human beings on the ground. His name
is Amy Horwitz, and Amy, I say this all the time.
(03:15):
Amy is a person who he's a journalist. He is
a fellow journalist, and he's a Jewish man, and he's
been on my show Savi E.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Cipher before.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
Of course, he's been on the show before, as I mentioned,
and initially and consistently, I believe that Amy and I
have committed to each other to be brothers. We are
going to love and support each other despite not agreeing
(03:46):
politically speaking on everything that is not and I'm learning
this daily that is not central to respecting someone's humanity,
and I believe that it's very easy. I'll speak for myself.
I would imagine it's true for most people, but it's
(04:07):
very easy for me to lose sight of that. And
I'm grateful for the reminder that Amy brings to our conversations. Now,
for those that missed the first show, Amy is a
globally renowned journalist. He produces edgy and powerful YouTube and
(04:30):
Facebook videos. He's garnered over half a billion views five
hundred million the exact, and the videos have gone beyond
just people watching them at home. They've impacted US trade policy,
US education policy. They've gone international. I know some of
(04:51):
his videos have impacted Swedish immigration policy.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
The list goes on.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
This is somebody special, not just to me, but as journalist,
his contributions matter, and I am grateful that he is
coming back today to the Black Information Network to give
us an update as he has just come back from
(05:18):
Israel and the Palestinian territories in Jordan, and since his
conversation with me initially about this subject. I've had a
conversation with Suzanne Oslam, the former Miss arab USA, who
is a Palestinian American, and she's been able to offer
some insight into the Israel Hamas war. And I believe
(05:45):
that since this first started the nature of the conflict
and the breadth of the coverage has changed a bit,
and it's important to have Ami back. And so while
I recognize that there may be an element, a component
(06:06):
of re experiencing some traumas here, I respect the fact
that you're a journalist, but I would never profess to
be inhuman. When I cover things, I feel things, and
so I would imagine the same may be true on
your end. For you to revisit some of these things today,
(06:27):
that really matters to me. And I don't take that lightly.
And I will say on behalf of myself, Chris Thompson
and our listeners at the Black Information Network, we appreciate
you coming back. Man. So you tell how are your
spirits on me.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
It's a pleasure to be back. It's always a good
time to spend with you, even when during dark times.
By the way, my mom talks about you a lot. Yeah,
absolutely loved our conversation. Yeah, she's become a big fan. Look, Spirits,
It's like I said, dark times for sure, but I
(07:04):
think that we've been through dark times before. We always
exit them into light. I think this is not going
to be an exception. I think things will get better
for sure. That doesn't discount the difficulties that everybody's experiencing
right now, and difficulties is underselling it. Obviously. Trauma for sure,
(07:25):
but look, let's uh, we're going to get past it.
I think everybody will get past it. We'll move into
the recesses of our memory. We'll never forget it. But
I think as humans we have to always look forward
because if we live in the past, we wouldn't be
able to move on as a species. So I do
think that we're going to move past this and get
(07:46):
better and things will normalize.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Sure, this is our this is our nature.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
So I appreciate you starting there, you know, with that
that optimism and that forward looking energy. I do want
to ask about you mentioned your cousin's kids are in Gaza,
and then you have another cousin who had two young
female friends that were taken hostage. I told you that
(08:14):
I would say a prayer and that I meant it,
and I want to let you know that I did
say a prayer for your family. I want to ask you, know,
how how's your family doing.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
They're you know, as well as one could expect. It's difficult,
particularly the ones who have kids who are in the army, Like,
you don't know where they are, what they're doing, They
take their phones away that you don't hear from them.
You're not you know, they don't. You don't know what's
going on with them, and of course they're they're all
very scared nervous for them as far as the hostages go.
(08:48):
I mean, I don't even want to go there what
they're thinking about and what they're experiencing. I bet another
friend from college who his son is there also, I
haven't had a chance to talk to, but he's been
pretty public about it. Uh yeah, I know that's those
are those are the those things I don't want to
try not to think about too much because it's what
(09:09):
they're going through is at this point unimaginable. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Sure, Well, before we start, you know, peeling back the
layers of this new conversation we're about to have it,
I feel it's important to start there and to remind
you that you are still in my prayers and the
prayers of lots of people, your people specifically, but you individually.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
So anyway, likewise, thank you, brother, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
So let's start this conversation where I believe most people
would want us to start the conversation. I mentioned that
the dynamic that's probably a better word of this war
has changed significantly since let's call it October fourteenth fish,
(10:03):
around the time we first spoke. At that time, I
was still being brought up to speed on the attacks
of October seventh and those atrocities that were committed by Hamas.
The Jewish people and the people of Israel were still
(10:24):
suffering and feeling the effects of that. Since then, Israel
has responded with overwhelming force. And one of the things
that I've parroted that I learned from you on various
(10:44):
platforms and in various conversations is that, at least at
that time, according to the data that I received from you,
that there was a human cost to rooting out Hamas,
but that human cost wasn't good or or remember you
said that, but the human cost was about one civilian
casualty her one Hamas soldier given the tactics that Hamas
(11:09):
was using, and that was something that Israel was proud of,
but not too proud of because ideas historically, historically historically Okay,
so the numbers are now.
Speaker 3 (11:19):
But they'll probably be similar, but because the same environment.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
But yeah, historically, okay, historically, So that's that might have
been something that I left out. But so you're saying
that right now that those numbers might might be the same.
Speaker 3 (11:33):
Yeah, we look, we have no The problem is is
that through the fog of war, you don't have a
sense of what the of what the numbers really are
the problem with So right now there's there. And by
the way, everything I say going forward, we're talking about
civilian casualties, I want to make very clear that that
does not diminish from the pain and the suffering of
(11:55):
and that every single civilian casualty, right, That's.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
That's why you're here, and that's why you're on the show.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Sometimes when I talk data, it may seem like, well,
you might not you might you don't care about the
babies being killed, and that's not that's not the situation
at all. But sometimes when you talk about data, you
have to devoid yourself of emotion and talk and contextualize things,
and that does not diminish from any kind of pain
and suffering that somebody would would have felt from their
parents or their child being killed in these things. I
(12:25):
want to make that you know clear. But the problem
with the fog of war, particularly when you're when you are.
The only numbers we're getting are from Gazam and the
only numbers we're getting are from Hamas run agencies, so
it's hard to know what's real or not real. Although
let's let's assume going forward that the numbers we're hearing
from Gaza are all accurate. Ten eleven thousand civilians have
(12:48):
been killed thus far, which is a not a small number,
right at all, and that roughly the same numbers kind
of hold. Five thousand Hamas terrorists have been killed, five
thousand civilians have been killed, something like that. Look it's again,
I can't say this enough. Every single civil innocent civilian
(13:11):
life that's taken is a tragedy. And that israelies. And
I was just in Israel, right, and I spend time
with different types of people in Israel, people on the left,
people on the right, people in the center, eight political
people one thing that there's a number of things that
they have become unified on. Obviously, the trauma and the
tragedy of October seventh is something that has united Israel
(13:32):
in a way we haven't seen in a long time,
particularly because we were coming off a time of division
similar to what we're seeing here in the US. Israel
has become the last couple of years extremely divided on
a couple particular political issues, issues that I think, by
the way, I think both sides have overblown. I don't
think the division is as great as people make it out.
I think the same thing here. I think we tend
(13:54):
to go to our political prior sometimes go to our
political corners, and we think the division between us is
larger than it actually is. And I think that's the
case in Israel and here. But that's side the point.
The other thing that there was unanimity on was the
need to have, as you said, overwhelming force to show
(14:14):
because this is something that has repeated itself. This is
October seventh is not an outlier. It was only by
the numbers, but in terms of the attempts to snuff
out the state of Israel, this has been hard for
the course for since the inception of the State of Israel,
Israel has gotten better at stopping it. Prior to the
(14:35):
security fence that was put up between the West Bank
and Israel, the two or three years prior to that,
which is what precipitated putting up the wall in some
places security fence and others was it's hard to you
probably don't remember, but every single week, buses and cafes
(14:55):
were being blown a smither rains, hundreds of people were
being killed in the street, indiscriminate children, adults, whoever. It
was a campaign of terror for two years, which led
hundreds and hundreds I think certainly over a thousand civilians
over the course of that two years dead, and that's
what led to Israel putting up a security barrier, which
(15:18):
cut down terrorist attacks. Biden I think it was like
ninety eight percent. It was a significant and this was
criticized for that, saying how could you put up a
wall on a border, And Israe's response was this stopped
the wholesale slaughter going on in our cities and Jerusalem
and Tel avivon all over the country. So Israel has
gotten better at stopping the attacks, but the motivation and
(15:42):
the continuation of attempts to slaughter Jews in Israel has
never stopped October seven.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Yeah, sorry, go ahead, no no, So they would eat me
alive if I didn't ask this arbit for me to
compel you to answer on behalf of the state of
Israel or answer on behalf of all Jewish people. So
that is not what I'm asking here. I'm asking for
(16:08):
your personal opinion so that we can kind of understand
what it's like from a perspective such as yours, a
Jewish man who's a journalist who's been on the ground there,
who can give as fair and and balanced an answer
as he can. There are people that say that Hamas
(16:30):
exists so that Palestine can be free of the oversight,
the Israeli oversight of Palestine. Israel or sorry, Hamas was elected,
and then they were elected under certain terms and have
since become more radicalized since that election. And most people
(16:57):
that are alive on the ground. Indeed, more than half
of the people that paid the price or that attack
on October ninth, in terms of the Palestinian people were
not even old enough to vote for Hamas, and not
one percent of the population voted for them. That was
old enough. But there were people whould say that Hamas
(17:21):
is yet set on freedom by any means necessary, and
not that Hamas wants Israel to collapse. So what do
you say to that narrative, to that idea that Hamas
does not mind if Israel exists. They just want Palaestin
(17:44):
to be self determined, Palestine to be self determined.
Speaker 3 (17:46):
Oh that's so wrong. I don't even know where to start.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
So help us.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
Oh so okay. First of all, Hamas has not been
more radicalized since its election. Hamas, since its exception, its
only goal was to kill every single Jew in the
state of Israel. This is in their charter. This is
not This is not like something I'm coming up with it.
It's in there, literally written their charter. They were always
created as a terrorist group. And they've not become more radicalized.
(18:14):
They've they've always been this way since inception of Hamas. No,
there they have. And again this is all in their charter.
And this is all not just in their charter. This
is me speaking with Hamas leaders over time.
Speaker 1 (18:27):
Yet you know better than than we do.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
Yeah, there there is zero intention, zero intention of sharing
the the land between the river and the sea with
the Jews.
Speaker 1 (18:38):
Uh.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
The only intention by Hamas is to wipe out every
single Jew in that area of land. Is all it
has been, always will be. There's no Hamas is not
into negotiations. Hamas isn't into it's the freedom of the
palasaying people in the in the land we've decided we've
defined as Palestine, the West Bank and Gaza. It's it's
(19:00):
not Ramala and Janine and Gaza City, it's Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, Haipha,
a lot, it's the entire kit kaboodle. That's they're simply
their only goal. They're not. There's not even speculation. It's
is they're saying it. Yeah, that's not. That's not. One
can argue that with with the palat the authority for sure,
(19:20):
but not with.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
So.
Speaker 1 (19:23):
So while we're here, so I came across a bit
of information. I want to just let you know where
where this comes from. Came across a bit of information
that that same bit that I told you that more
than half the population wasn't even alive, uh during the
last election. And you know, I will get to the
(19:45):
point where we're discussing who's paying the price, the physical
price in terms of loss of life on the ground
in Palestine. But there's a a common.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Rebuttal to.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Calls for a ceasefire or calls to like kind of
not be so od with the bombing in Palestine, which
is well, everyone is culpable in this war because they
elected Hamas. Right now, I know full well that Hamas
(20:23):
is a terrorist organization Hamas. There is no rewriting of
October seventh. To me, that's not a thing, nor would
that be a thing to anybody that I would share
a microphone with. That's not something that people would be
able to get off. But as I was learning this
information about how the age is skewed in Palestine, I
(20:47):
learned a little bit about Hamas, and I was able
to see some video clips from the eighties when around
the time when Hamas was first being founded, and some
of the talking points by the Hamas leadership suggested that
they were once less radical than they are now. Now
(21:12):
that might have been just for the purposes of propaganda
or for the purposes of winning an election or whatever.
As you mentioned, you know they're charter and you've spent
time with them. So I'm not trying to suggest that
anyone knows more than you, But certainly the way that
that was framed suggests that they have since become more radicalized,
and that they started off certainly more aggressive. That's perhaps
(21:38):
part of what got them elected. They were more aggressive
in their tactics in terms of gaining some self determination
for Palestine, and that's probably what the people were hoping for.
But they have since moved further I guess that would
be to the right and become more of a terrorist
organization since then. And so I just wanted to suggest
(21:59):
that that's where that came from. But while we're here,
what do you say to people who or what how
do you feel about that narrative that the people of
Palestine are as culpable in this war and they are
paying the price for electing Hamas.
Speaker 3 (22:20):
I don't think that's fair. I think that the Palacian people,
and we talking about the people and God, the Palasings
and Gaza obviously, yes, yeah, it's not it's not it's
not fair the Palestinians, Yes, they were elected. The rule
when it comes to democracy in the air world is
(22:40):
very simple. You get an election once that's it. You know,
you can go look, you can look at Algeria. Same
thing like the rare times you've had elections. In their world,
you get one election and then you're done. And this
has been the case with with Hamas, So they haven't.
It's not like they're coming back to you know, to
(23:00):
the electorate you know, every four or five years, right,
you know, it's been almost two decades. Having said that,
there is you know, when I was in the Pastian
territories and in the West Bank, I was asking Palestinians.
I said, you, guys, how do you how does it feel?
How do you feel now? Politically right in the West
Bank if there was an election today between Hamas and
(23:22):
the pasting Authority, who would you vote for? And overwhelmingly
anybody above fifty we're leaned toward the passing Authority and
everybody under fifty was vote Hamas today. Like it's it's
amazing to me that this, what they've seen happen in
the last month, that they've witnessed, has not erode to
(23:44):
the support of Kamas. In fact, if I would argue,
it has seemed to have strengthened Kamas support in the
West Bank, which is why a lot of people in
the West Bank are being arrested. Nobody would talk to
me on camera. Really had one guy talking on camera
because they said, if we show support for Caramas on camera,
the past authority will arrest us because there's a real
battle between an ideological battle for the soul of the
(24:05):
past is between these two hinonies. No, it's so look,
it's it's not fair in the sense that I don't
hold the past people culpable for what happened. Having said
that this is the way war works. Do I blame
every German for electing Hitler? Uh? Not really, but they
(24:25):
paid the price for it for sure, just the way
war is that when you're in war, this is what happens.
The price ultimately paid is the population.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
So I think that the part that has.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Really shifted is the images that are coming out of
Gaza right when you see the bodies of It's been
very difficult for me to articulate the horrors of what
I've seen, but I believe that as a journalist, you
(25:10):
know what I'm referring to. When you see shoes still
attached to a limb or little tiny body parts. Do
(25:33):
you feel that the response given the numbers, if you
do accept the numbers, is true, do you feel that
the response is still appropriate from Israel.
Speaker 3 (25:50):
So okay. First of all, I will the thing I
was gonna finished before by the unanimity of Israel on
certain topics, And one of the topics that are unified
on aside from prosecuting this war, is the general sadness
the country feels about the civilian casualties in Gaza, the
(26:11):
pain that they feel seeing these images. They see the
images like everybody else. Is palpable. Having said that, look,
the images are horrific. I told you before and again
when I move into the next phase of kind of
contextualizing the war, I don't want to diminish the pain,
the suffering, and the horrifying things that we've seen in Gaza.
(26:35):
But I guess, okay. The first argument I think is
important to talk about is you hear a lot from
people in the media that Israel is trying to kill civilians.
This is the first thing I wanted to spell. It's
targeting civilians, that it wants to have a high civilian
death count. It's so absurd on a number of levels,
(26:59):
and the most obvious one is if Israel wanted to
kill civilians, they'd all be dead tomorrow. Israel is the
capability to turn Gaza into glass. There wouldn't be a
single human breathing in Gaza tomorrow without nuclear weapons, I mean,
with conventional weapons, if it so choose choose right. A
(27:21):
couple things. First of all, the image you see of
like neighborhoods in rubble, which are real. I will say
that I've gone to Gaza after not dissimilar attacks before,
and what you tend to notice is, yes, there are
these streets that have been turned to rubble. But if
you look to the left and to the right, you
see vast tracks of buildings completely intact. Right, you're seeing
(27:44):
the narrow scope of this area, this several blocks area
which Israel deemed a terrorist haven needed to be leveled.
But really right around that you see tons of buildings
completely normal. Right, everything is is If you looked in
one direction, you will see nothing different. You turn around
behind you, you see devastation. Israel has dropped again. To
(28:09):
give context, Israel has dropped over twenty five thousand bombs
major twenty five thousand. Think about that, how many bombs
that is, you talk about two hundred five hundred pound bombs,
which enormous destructive power. When you think about the civilian
death count, let's say, the civilian death count five six
thousand with twenty five thousand, five hundred pound bombs, that
(28:32):
is not a mass carpet bombing of a city. That
is as surgical as one can possibly humanly be.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
So how do you make that argument on me because
you said twenty five thousand bombs and that means five thousand,
That means five bombs per every one Hamas soldier.
Speaker 3 (28:55):
Right. Well, remember they're not trott They're actually not looking
to kill Evenhama soldiers. They're looking at to take out infrastructure.
That's what the bombing is for. The bombing isn't really
killing Kamas soldier is just okay, an added benefit, And
so they want to kill Kamas terrorists. But the bombing
is specific for specific tasks. There are mostly to take
(29:17):
out the terror tunnels and the infrastructure.
Speaker 1 (29:20):
So now what we have is a conversation. I want
to make sure that you and our listeners know the
people that I know in my life. I've told you
this before, but the human beings that I know in
my life are Jewish. I know one Palestinian woman that's
the only person I've ever met in my life. She
(29:41):
is a kind woman, she's a good woman. I believe
in her plight and the plight of her people, as
well as the people I actually know the Jewish people, right,
So this comes from a place of love. But I
have to ask, Yeah, is it the case? I remember,
I'm talking to you. You don't have to answer on behalf
of anybody except Ami Horowitz?
Speaker 2 (30:00):
But is it the case that the other side of this.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Coin, the loss of life of people that are not
culpable to any degree whatsoever, is worth infrastructure Because it's
the human beings that power the system, not the infrastructure.
A gun will not shoot itself if you shoot the
gun and it'll still be able to shoot, or you can
repair to whatever. But if you shoot the person wielding
the gun, then you've solved the problem. In other words,
(30:27):
is the human cost worth infrastructure? Like we're going to
bomb this area because it's a it's a it's a haven,
and we're just gonna take the good guys out with
the bad guys, or the non culpable individuals out with
the potentially culpable ones. Five bombs for everyone, So you
know that the numbers make it seem very very cruel,
(30:50):
and the philosophy that justifies this I completely understand and
respect right to exist, absolutely, right to feel safe. Absolutely
at a certain point, is there not a tipping point
where human beings, human beings on the ground in Israel
(31:11):
who have dissented from their political part of human beings
on the ground here, who can look at that, look
at those limbs and say, Okay, this is od, this
is and then to hear that the infrastructure is the
target and we're just going to forget the people. We're
(31:32):
gonna wipe the infrastructure out with a military that has
the intelligence and the capability to indeed be more surgical.
Does that not feel like we're kind of leapfrogging the
human element, like the emotional element, Like are we doing
more harm than good? Are these questions that you wrestle
with only thank you for that, man, because that's the
(31:54):
part where we just need a little air out of
the ball.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
Man. It just I don't like the worth the thing.
But yes, the answer is yes, it is. You say infrastructure.
I know it sounds dry, but the infrastructure, but the
infant you have to get understand. The infrastructure is what
allows when I was in Israel fifteen twenty rockets every
(32:17):
single day. We're going to tell Aviv when I was there.
That's the infrastructure. The infrastructure is what allows Hamas terrorists
to slaughter Jews. Infrastructure. Without infrastructure, they don't that's their oxygen.
They don't exist. And that's I know, sounds weird. It's
the most humane way of actually dealing and prosecuting a
war like this, because otherwise otherwise it'd be random, right,
(32:41):
Otherwise you're just bombing randomly like we've been in World
War Two, and the civilian count would be in one
hundred of thousands, not ten thousands. But look, the problem
is is that Haamah. And this again, this is not me.
This is Hamas, not only in their charter, but Hammas
saying this out loud. They've said this over the years,
they said it. Just recently they have. They want to
have a high the high as high as civilian death
(33:03):
toll as possible. They want not Asraeli Palastidian death holl
because it allows them to look like martyrs. It allows
them to present themselves as victims to the world. And
they don't give two rays. They don't give two about
their own civilians. I promise you Israel cares more about
(33:24):
Palestini casualties than Hamas does. Hamas puts them in the
harm's way in order to gin up the civilian death counts.
There's a reason why Hamas puts their infrastructure inside hospitals
and schools and mosques. They don't do that by accident.
They don't do it because they got a better deal
on their lease. They do because they want Israel to
(33:46):
attack their civilian targets. I mean, that's that's the only
reason why. Absolutely. I know it sounds to somebody who
it sounds ridiculous. I know it sounds fantasy. Like fantasy,
it is absolute, god honest truth.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
I believe you.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
I remember that part of our conversation, when we were
first articulating it and then looking at their position relative
to the might of the military of Israel, you realize
that that actually, as cruel as it is, it's probably
(34:27):
something that like if they can control the narrative that
they can't control anything else, then they might give them
a fighting chance. So they sacrifice their own people, as
awful as that is, and they put themselves set themselves
up in schools and hospitals so that you know, it
could it could get the largest emotional response from the
global community.
Speaker 3 (34:46):
Has worked brilliantly, has worked brilliantly.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
I don't want to give them credit, but you know
that that's that's the tactic. It seems from.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
A macabre perspective, they have done it very well.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
There you go from the macab let me again.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
Yeah, go ahead, I want to say that again. It's
it's look, I've had this debate with a number of people,
and and the answer to when I say we break
down the numbers again, it's like, and this is and
our conversation was really before the the force really got
(35:21):
amped up. Response yet, right, but it still holds true.
I mean, the numbers that I'm showing you again, it's
it's they're not it's not deniable that to say that
if you're dropping twenty five thousand bombs and you have
five thousand civillions or six thousand billions that are killed,
it's it's it's undeniable that they're not targeting civilians, right
because and again it's again there's twenty one thousand bombs.
(35:41):
That's enough to wipe out pretty much all of guys.
But they're they're being used very surgically. I know when
you see the images, it doesn't seem like that. I
get it. The human response looks and says, this is random,
this is Carpon bombing. I can just promise you this
is not. And the numbers you can if you really
break the numbers down, you can see that doesn't It
isn't random carb bombing. When you look at how many
(36:03):
people are being killed relative to the force being used,
you get a sense that there is something beyond those numbers. Again,
it's not I know that. It's easy to say, but
kids are being killed, Like, I get it, But that's
not a real response to your war. When your war,
people are killed, civilians are killed. In every single word
(36:24):
we have.
Speaker 1 (36:25):
All right, now, this is the but the difference is
not okay.
Speaker 3 (36:27):
I'm sorry the last. But the difference is on one side,
the kids and the siblings are being are the specific targets,
and on one side they're not. That's that's ultimately the
moral difference.
Speaker 1 (36:40):
So I'm going to push back a little bit right here.
But first I have to insert a pause. In fact,
we might even take a break and finish this with
a part too, because I got something for that.
Speaker 3 (37:01):
I want it. I want it.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
This has been a production of the Black Information Network.
Today's show is produced by Chris Thompson.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Have some thoughts you'd like to share, use the red
microphone talkback feature on the iHeartRadio app. While you're there,
be sure to hit subscribe and download all of our episodes.
I am your host ramses Jah on all social media.
Speaker 1 (37:21):
Join us tomorrow as we share our news with our
voice from our perspective right here on the Black Information
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