May 15, 2024 • 26 mins
Featuring:
Sean Darby, Managing Director at Mizuho Securities Asia, sharing his views on markets from our Hong Kong studio.
John Liu, Bloomberg News Executive Editor in Beijing, joins the program to discuss US tariff hikes on Chinese goods.
Vlad Savov, Bloomberg Tech Editor in Hong Kong, breaks down earnings from Chinese tech giants Alibaba and Tencent.
Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bloomberg-daybreak-asia/id1663863437
Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/0Ccfge70zthAgVfm0NVw1b
TuneIn: https://tunein.com/podcasts/Asian-Talk/Bloomberg-Daybreak-Asia-Edition-p247557/?lang=es-es
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
This is the Bloomberg Daybreak Asia podcast. I'm Brian Curtis
along with Doug Krisner. Join us each day for the
stories making news and moving markets in the Asia Pacific.
You can subscribe to the show anywhere you get your
podcasts and always on Bloomberg Radio, the Bloomberg Terminal, and
The Bloomberg Business app.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Earlier in the day, we heard from Fed shair J. Powell,
and he was saying that the Central Bank needs to
be patient as it weights some more evidence that high
interest rates are doing a job on curbing inflation. At
the same time, mister Powell seemed to double down on
the need to keep those borrowing cost higher for longer.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
I don't think that it's likely, based on the data
that we have, that the next move that we make
would be a rate hike. I think it's more likely
that we'll be at a place where we hold the
policy rate where it is.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Fedchhair Ja Powell, speaking earlier today at an event in Amsterdam,
he said that he expects inflation will move lower on
a monthly basis. However, price figures in the first quarter
have tempered that confidence.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Just a bit.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
He spoke right after the PPI data that we had
here in the US for the month of April. It
showed that inflation at the wholesale level rose last month,
more than forecast.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Let's get to Sean Darby, Managing director at Mizuho Securities Asia,
to talk a little bit more about the impact that
that report has and also how he sees markets moving
over the short term. Sewan, thank you very much for
being with us here in our studios on a holiday
but his birthday in Hong Kong, but nice to have
you join us here. So when we look at that
(01:42):
producer prise data, of course the headline data for month
on month was kind of hot, but then you had
these other mitigating factors on balance, neutral in your view
or what.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
Well, certainly the boommark it took it reason to be well,
so the curve actually dropped across all of the duration.
I think one of the interesting thing aspects of the
producer prices is actually corporates are attaining very very strong
pricing power, and that doesn't really mean that we're going
to be seeing a recession that soon. Companies are not
(02:14):
in a position at the moment to having to either
protect margins particularly or indeed feeling that they're going to
have to lower prices to either clear infantry or garner demand.
So all of this really, I think reinstates fairchairperson's power view,
which is that it's going to be higher for longer,
and we're not going to be really seeing rate cuts
(02:35):
potentially really until fourth quarter, and certainly the equity market
isn't going to get any relief from a very big
series of rate cuts and perhaps until twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
You don't seem to be too surprised by that notion.
Were you expecting the fair to be on hold for
the foreseeable future.
Speaker 5 (02:53):
I really feel that at the moment, if you look
at things like producer prices or credit spreads, credit spreads
are very very tight. For where we are on the cycle,
you have an inverted Yelk curve, credit spreads tight. They
have not really presaged a recession at all over the
last year. In fact, it's failed. I think the FED
recession model has been at sixty percent for nearly twelve
(03:15):
months now, and the reason for all that is that
as people enter the workforce, they actually produce goods that
economic output picks up and you get a sort of
an enduring profit cycles people as wages feedback into the economy.
So ironically, at the moment it's been more of a
labor problem in this cycle than anything else. And certainly,
(03:37):
certainly in that respect, you're not really going to see
economic activity fade until sometime in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, And that seems to be most important because the
earnings appear to be tied to economic growth and also
the efficiency of companies and such. And as long as
inflation doesn't get a lot worse, if it starts to
go to the other direction, then all bets are off,
I suppose, because higher interest rates on the FED would
definitely get markets jangled. But as long as we see growth,
(04:07):
sort of with the job growth of one hundred and
seventy five thousand, that's not bad news is good news,
that's like ok news is good news. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
I think the reality is that globally we've had a
enormous period of immigration, and the OECD wrote about this
and its outlooked I think two weeks ago that one
of the important factors that's allowed the economic recovery to
be extended was the fact that immigration has returned as
being a big swing factor for labor markets in places
(04:38):
like the US, UK and Australia, and that has been
perhaps the savior actually for these central banks in a
sense that they've not had to face recessionary problems. I
think the other thing to remember is that the two
cycles proceeding, so the cycle before the COVID was a
deflationary one. COVID itself was a defe inflationary experience, but
(05:02):
actually all the cycles preceding those have actually been inflationary,
and we're just sort of going back to learn what
it looks like or how things are during a period
where you are fighting inflation rather than fighting deflation. I
think that's also been part of the problem for the
bomb market. Nobody really has had the experience, including myself
as well.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Let's talk a little bit about geopolitics, because we have
these new tariffs now on certain Chinese goods being implemented
by the Bide administration. Not surprising that Beijing is going
to blow back just a little bit and vow measures
of its own. How do you kind of evaluate where
we are right now in terms of US China tensions.
Speaker 5 (05:40):
Well, I think the way to succinctly put it is
things are not getting better and they're getting worse. And
for me, I think we're still going to be in
a cycle even after the US elections, in which the
whole trade sanctions and restrictions are going to be an
ongoing theme. Actually, so I think the way to put
it is that we're going to have to live with
(06:01):
further restrictions, further tariffs, and particularly at the high end
on the technology end, I don't see any glimmer of
light in which the US is going to relax any
of those exports or restrictions on semiconductors. So again, I
think we're in a there's no sort of endgame in this.
(06:22):
This is going to be a theme that's going to
continue for the next three to four years.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
And US China rivalry on semiconductors brings Taiwan into the picture. Now.
Next week will be an important week. William Lai will
be inaugurated as Taiwan president. He supports the status quo
with China Sean, but he calls himself a pragmatic worker
for Taiwan independence, and the way that he gets at
(06:48):
that is that Taiwan has de facto independence now and
that's what the status quo means, But I'm curious whether
or not you think we might see a Taiwan discount
to be applied to the equity market there if he
gets plucky.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
I think the unusual thing at the moment is that,
for first of all, Taiwan and China's economies are inextricably linked.
So if you look at the pmis over a three
or four year period, they generally sort of follow each other.
There's a symbiotic relationship between the growth rates. The second
(07:22):
thing is that in many respects, the economy now is
in its own sort of inflationary boom, which is similar
to what Japan is, where you have a very undervalued currency,
you have a central bank that's pretty much quite far
behind the curve and raising rates in contrast to everyone else.
And thirdly, everywhere you look, whether it's from land prices
(07:45):
or producer prices or CPI core CPI, actually Taiwan's is
actually inflating still. So in that respect, the political or
geopolitics is actually being sort of surpassed by the fact
that's actually the economy is doing very well and on
a very different path to what everyone else is experiencing globally.
(08:08):
They've also got labor shortages and an extremely low unemployment rate.
So I think in the sense, geopolitics is actually being
pushed to one side because the economy is actually doing
pretty well in Taiwan.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
But I'm curious about the outlook. If we can agree
that there is just so much concentration of semiconductor of
production visa v TSMC, and if countries like the US
are a little uneasy about the level of concentration, and
other chip makers seek to diversify away from Taiwan, including TSMC,
which is actually helping to create facilities in the United States,
(08:42):
might the economy go into a lower gear as the
world becomes less dependent on chip manufacturing from TSMC. Or
is it simply too early to make that call.
Speaker 5 (08:54):
No, that's a fair point, I think at the moment,
as I said, you have this sort of inflationary bio
which is working through the economy, mainly be caused by
a very cheap exchange rate. But your point is well taken.
The irony is that the competitive part of Taiwan semiconductors
is to some extent being hollowed out through this sort
(09:15):
of off you know, sort of on shoring in the
developed world, and in that respect, you're not going to
get the same level of output growth that you would
have had in pre proceeding cycles, you know, sometime in
two or three years from now, so that you know,
in fairness that time one is going to sort of
see below trend growth from from twenty twenty five twenty
(09:37):
six purely because they don't have that same facilities in situ.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
But you are sounding like a Taiwan bull and you're
you're also quite bulled up on the hanksayg Tech Index,
it is up thirty four percent since February first. When
is enough enough? Well?
Speaker 5 (09:55):
I think the interesting thing about the Hansen Tech Index
is that it's a pure or look at everything that
is more on the exports side and nothing to do
with real estate or finance. So it's a very clean
way of getting to grips of how China's sort of
other part of the economy is doing. And in fairness,
(10:18):
the companies, I think we we calculated eighty percent of
them have cat net cash from the balance sheet free
cash flow yields on average seven percent. It was a
sort of outstanding bargain and in that respect, I think
there was a fair degree of catch up for the
HS tech compared to all the other global indices in
the past past two quarters.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
All right, Sean, thanks very much for joining us here
on a holiday in our studios in Hong Kong. Sean Darby,
Managing director at Mizuho Securities.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Earlier today in the States, President Biden unveiled sweeping tariffs
and an increase in terraffs on a range of Chinese imports.
We're going to take a closer look now with our
own John lu Bloomberg Executive editor, joining us from our
studios in Beijing. John, it's always a pleasure. I'm going
to go out on a limb and say that this
really didn't go down too well in Beijing. Is that
(11:15):
a fair statement.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I think that is a fair statement. This adds additional
pressure on a relationship that is already very tense, that
is already full of fractious disagreements, and so this is
not making things any easier in any way.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
John, Is it also fair to say the flip side
of it, that this may be a little bit more
political on both sides than it is a real teeth
in the action.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I think some of these tariffs were designed for maximum
political advantage, and maybe not so much for the impact
on the economy. For example, there are not really many
Chinese electric cars being exported to the United States from China,
and putting quadrupling the tariffs on those shipments is not
(12:05):
going to have that big of an impact on bilateral trade.
I think we saw something earlier when the Biden administration
talked about putting additional tariffs on Chinese steel and aluminum,
which the US buys very little of from China, and
so a lot of this is more show than it
is impact.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
But I'm wondering if the subtext here is what we
need to be talking about, which is the issue of overcapacity.
I mean, that's been right out in the open from
both sides, right, not just from Treasury Secretary Yellen, but
the German Chancellor all Off Schultz as well.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
That is a big issue because the concern is that
Chinese factories are making far more than can be consumed domestically,
and so the obvious answer for China when it comes
to what to do with all these goods being produced
is to export them. And if cutting the prices, exporting
those things at a cheaper price helps to get moved,
(12:59):
the move the product, and that is an obvious strategy,
and that is something that would of course concern the Germans,
the French, the Americans, lots of different markets around the world.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
And of course we started out with talking about China's response.
We haven't seen it yet. It may amount to something
quite material. It could be something directed at Tesla and
companies like Apple. Have you been sort of looking at
this and what are we thinking?
Speaker 1 (13:27):
So the Chinese have come out so far and said
that they will take action to protect their rights. I
think as they're trying to figure out what they should
do next, they are going to have to balance a
number of different factors. One, going after companies like Apple
or Tesla. That's not going to be good for China's
own economy because those companies are such large presences here
(13:50):
because they employ so many people. Discouraging foreign investment in
China is not going to help Hug get the economy
booming again. And so he's going to have to try
and find some action that is both going to appease
a domestic audience which thinks that the government needs to
stand up for China, but then also not shoot China
(14:11):
in its own foot.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Don't we need to also take a look at proportionality.
I mean the leverages that we're talking about here from
the US that covers around eighteen billion in goods for
an eighteen trillion dollar economy, So this is literally a
drop in the bucket.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Well, I think the Chinese will take that into consideration,
and I think there is a lot of mutual understanding
that ahead of this year's presidential election in the United
States that the rhetoric coming out of Washington is going
to be more heated than normal. And I think also
factoring into this is, of course the other candidate in
the race, former President Trump, and some of the more
(14:49):
aggressive tariffs that he's talked about taking or putting into
place if he were elected president. So there's a number
of things in play here.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
John. Obviously, trade is a big issue for China, but
Taiwan is probably the biggest issue. And we have William
Lai to be inaugurated next week as president. He supports
the status quo, but he's always kind of leaned a
little bit toward Taiwan independence. He calls himself a pragmatic
worker for Taiwan independence. Should we be concerned that Taiwan,
(15:20):
the economy, semiconductors, everything may get a little bit of
a downgrade going forward as a result of that tricky relationship.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
So I think Taiwan is definitely the most dangerous, dangerous
flashpoint in this relationship between the United States and China.
Whether William Laie's ascendence to the presidential office will be
the spark that sets off some sort of conflict, I
think that looks relatively unlikely at the moment. We are
expecting him to stick to the line from the previous
(15:52):
administration of Taiing I. He has said that publicly he
plans to be a continuity president of anything. I think
the speech that he will be giving his inauguration will
be tuned to try and both show him and his
party is defending Taiwan, but also not to cause any
upsetness in Beijing or Washington.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
John, it's always a pleasure. Thank you so much for
making time to chat with us. Covered a lot of
ground there with John Lou Bloomberg executive editor in Beijing.
We go to China next. And those big earnings reports
that we have been waiting for ten Cent Holdings, on
one hand, reported better than expected earnings, a sixty two
(16:36):
percent surge. Okay, so that's the good news. On the
other hand, Ali Baba with a plunge and profit. We're
talking about net income tumbling eighty six percent. That's after
an unexplained write down for losses in Baba's publicly traded holdings.
There was a little bit of commonality though, among these
two giants. Both ten Cent and Ali Baba reported better
(16:57):
than expected revenue growth, although it was in the single digits. However,
there was divergence when you look at the share prices
here in New York. The ADRs and ten Cent up
about four point seven percent, but the ADRs and Baba
were down six percent.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Brian Well joining us now to discuss this as Lad Savov,
Bloomberg Tech editor, who is looking very closely at the
ten Cent and Baba earnings and was on our blog,
really getting to all the comments as they came. Vlad,
nice to have you with us in our studios. Let's
start off with Ali Baba first, because one of the
things that we observed over the past many, many weeks
(17:34):
was that Ali Baba faces a lot more stiff competition
at the moment than ten Cent does, and so ten
cents earnings had to beat and we can talk about
that too. But Ali Bab a couple of things. Doug
mentioned one that basically there was some unexplained losses in
its holdings of public companies, and that's one thing, but
it also had to spend more to fight off the
(17:55):
competition and it was costly.
Speaker 6 (17:57):
Absolutely, Brian, and I think you got to exactly right.
Ali Baba's competitive landscape is so different from ten cents.
Speaker 7 (18:04):
In years past.
Speaker 6 (18:05):
It used to be that Ali Baba was the big
dog in e commerce and in the same way that
ten Cent is with games publishing, and ten Cent situation
is still the case. It's still the world's biggest games publisher.
He's the biggest by far in China. It one has
Netty's to compete with, whereas Alibaba. On the other hand,
you have by Dance coming in, you have PDD. Everyone
is getting into its turf. So one of the things
(18:27):
that stood out from Ali Baba's announcement was they mentioned,
with respect to Timo and Talbau price competitive. They mentioned
a couple of times in their announcements. So really what
they're saying is it costs us money to compete. These
guys are undercutting us, so we need to undercut them back.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
You know, sometimes the candy. I mean, at least these
days for the market has been any mention of artificial intelligence.
Where do Baba and Tencent come down? Visa VI you
know this move into AI, right.
Speaker 6 (18:56):
That's another commonality for both of them. They consider AI
a central pillar. Now the detail is where it becomes interesting,
and we don't have enough to EATA from either company.
I mean, one of the things that Ali Baba has
mentioned for a couple of quarters now is that they
will deploy generative AI to help make its e commerce
more appealing.
Speaker 7 (19:13):
I don't see how that's happening. I mean, these are
two very different things.
Speaker 6 (19:17):
Generaty of AI is something that's still very nascent, very early,
and nobody's really figured out exactly how to deploy it.
Whereas e commerce there are proven ways to entice people
to buy stuff. And actually at the moment, the thing
that's really doing it is short video is stuff like
TikTok and dowy in and that's the thing that Tencent
is leaning into with wechair and it's we chat video.
(19:37):
So one of the big figures that Tencent reported is
eighty percent growth. Can use the time spent in we
chat video accounts and what really that says we chat
vide account. You can equate that to ten cents TikTok.
The more people use in that service, the more that
ten Cent commnetize, the more it can introduce e commerce opportunities.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
So, in other words, we should not read that twenty
six percent rise in ad sales by ten Cent. We
probably shouldn't take that as a good barometer on the
Chinese economy. It's more like the algorithm. It's more like
what they're doing to attract and keep Wi Chat users
with those short form videos.
Speaker 7 (20:11):
That's right, Brian.
Speaker 6 (20:12):
If you want to flatter a Tencent for their execution,
you're free to do that.
Speaker 7 (20:15):
But I think you're right. I think you're correct.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Well, I was going to flatter you by saying you're
the big dog looking at these big tech companies.
Speaker 7 (20:24):
Well, here's the thing.
Speaker 6 (20:26):
Ali Baba's chairman, Joe Zie He said that the company
is seeing positive signs of the Chinese consumer being willing
to spend. Again, that was not the same sentiment coming
out of Tencent. Martin Laud, the president of Tencent. He
said that the Chinese economy is mixed, and therefore the
advertising landscape necessarily is also mixed. So ten Cent itself
(20:46):
is taking the credit for this as well. They're saying
that they're doing better, and they do give some credit
to AI helping them optimize ads on and other platforms.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
So when you're a company like Ali Baba Vlad and
you're struggling, is the remedy, at least in the short
term stock buyback? Is that enough to kind of get
the market a little enthused?
Speaker 6 (21:07):
Well, Brian said it. I mean, you said it yourself.
The stock market is not reacting positively. They did announce
a four billion.
Speaker 7 (21:13):
Dollar buyback, so everyone is quite serious.
Speaker 6 (21:16):
One of the really interesting things across the tech ecosystem,
no matter the geography, is that everyone's doing a buyback
right now. We're talking Sony in Japan, Ali Baba, Tense
has one in ongoing. Apple announced the world's biggest buyback
ever Google Meta. Everyone is doing it right now because
they have been sitting on these big cash piles and
at the same time as they investing heavily in AI.
Speaker 7 (21:37):
And this is true both for Tense and Ali Baba.
Speaker 6 (21:40):
One of the ways that they can, like you say,
you sustain the share price and give some satisfaction to
investors is to give some money back.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
We saw a little bit of caution in games for
Tencent to walk us through some of the details there.
Speaker 6 (21:55):
Well, I mean, this is the other really interesting thing
to hear Tencent talk about his business. It keeps about
high quality growth and how it's kind of shifting away
from games. But then to hear the analysts on the
analysts call and their priorities and questions, they keep focusing
on games.
Speaker 7 (22:08):
And here's the thing. Tencent is now.
Speaker 6 (22:10):
Talking more about grocery septs as well as revenue, which
kind of muddies the picture. So if you look at
domestic games, they were up three percent in grocery septs
but down two percent in revenue.
Speaker 7 (22:20):
So those are the growth figures.
Speaker 6 (22:21):
Much like e commas for Ali Baba, that everyone is
really paying attention to gaming is still the biggest thing,
and that growth rate is never rising above three four
percent each quarter.
Speaker 7 (22:32):
And it's tricky.
Speaker 6 (22:33):
It's tricky for Tencent to do anything about this because
they are relying on a lot of evergreen games and
they don't really have that games pipeline that's necessary to
fire up new growth.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
You know, when I think about Ali Baba and the
fact that we had put so much stock in the
possibility of some spinoffs here IPOs of different divisions. I
mean that seems to be really off the table right now.
I mean, is that kind of eventually occur. Do you
think is it in Baba's best interest to spinoffs of
these divisions.
Speaker 6 (23:02):
Well, never say never on that happening again. But let's
bear in mind that that was under the leadership of
Daniel Jiang who was the previous CEO, and the new CEO,
Eddie Wu, and even the earnings announcement last night very
much stressed the synergy. I mean, this is the funny
thing we talked about IPOs and spinning stuff off. Now
Alibaba is all about synergy. One of the ways that
they highlighted this was Kaine out the logistics unit. They
(23:24):
said several times it's doing a lot to help both
e commas domestically, but also the international arms things like
Ali Express. A lot of the growth for the logistics
unit is coming out of helping the international e commerce,
which is actually the one with the healthiest growth.
Speaker 7 (23:38):
That grew by forty five percent.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
I'll give you some numbers here, which I know you know,
but the audience may not. That's quite astounding. Ten cents.
Revenue was roughly twenty two billion ali Baba's thirty one billion,
yet ten cents market cap is double that of Ali Baba.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
That tells you a lot.
Speaker 6 (23:56):
Oh absolutely well, I mean as a gamer, I can
just say that it tells you a lot about the
value of games. But really the way that you should
think about this is games software. These are things with
a low cost base, Like the marginal cost of selling
another game is nothing basically versus Ali Baba having to
do all the logistics, having to do all this investment
in data centers and so on in order to provide
(24:19):
its AI.
Speaker 7 (24:19):
Services to people.
Speaker 6 (24:21):
And the really interesting thing with Tencent, and it's something
that they kind of picked up on in the call,
was the fact that they can entice people via we
chat via all these consumer services into it's broader ecosystem
of services that includes AI, generative AI and such other
subscriptions that they might be able to provide.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
So vilaib when you consider guidance, I mean, is this
something that was played up a lot? I mean, and
what do we know about the trajectory of growth that
these companies see right now in the current environment.
Speaker 6 (24:51):
Well, I don't know that we've got great visibility from
either company, I mean, Ali Baba's said that they will
keep investing in Taubau and team or the team, or
they will keep competing with the likes of PDD that
I mentioned.
Speaker 7 (25:04):
As with Tencent.
Speaker 6 (25:05):
They do anticipate things improving in the second half, they said.
And one of the interesting things, I mean, they mentioned
a number of games that they consider kind of flagship
games that are going to fire up growth in their estimation.
I'm not really sure about this because the blockbuster games
that we see on the global stage half the time,
they're kind of unpredictable. I mean, we had a game
like Powell that came out of nowhere. So the thing
(25:27):
again with the gaming ecosystem is you're not really sure
what is going to be an absolute runaway hit. So
we kind of have to play that as it goes.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
And just briefly, I know you're peripherally familiar with ant
group as well. Quarterly earnings down nineteen percent, struggling, struggling
to find new drivers of growth.
Speaker 6 (25:47):
And honestly, I kind of explained that one because being
based here in Hong Kong, anytime I get to a checkout,
I see Alipay as an option, not so much.
Speaker 7 (25:54):
We chat pay.
Speaker 6 (25:55):
So as far as Ali Baba announce, getting the distribution,
getting the reach, and getting the retailers to embrace their
payment system.
Speaker 7 (26:03):
Even here in Hong Kong, it's kind of.
Speaker 6 (26:06):
Ubiquitous and probably that is the strongest indicator to the
earlier point Brian about the Chinese consumer. So maybe Ali
Baba tells us is seeing signs of it recovering, but
the facts that telling us otherwise.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Yeah, all right, thanks Flad, Let's have off with us,
Bloomberg Tech editor talking Ali Bomba and ten Cent and
even a little there on.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
End.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
This has been the Bloomberg Daybreak Asia podcast, bringing you
the stories making news and moving markets in the Asia Pacific.
Visit the Bloomberg Podcast channel on YouTube to get more
episodes of this and other shows from Bloomberg. Subscribe to
the podcast on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere else you'll listen,
and always on Bloomberg Radio, the Bloomberg Terminal, and the
(26:48):
Bloomberg Business app.
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
This is the Bloomberg Daybreak Asia podcast. I'm Brian Curtis
along with Doug Krisner. Join us each day for the
stories making news and moving markets in the Asia Pacific.
You can subscribe to the show anywhere you get your
podcasts and always on Bloomberg Radio, the Bloomberg Terminal, and
The Bloomberg Business app.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Earlier in the day, we heard from Fed shair J. Powell,
and he was saying that the Central Bank needs to
be patient as it weights some more evidence that high
interest rates are doing a job on curbing inflation. At
the same time, mister Powell seemed to double down on
the need to keep those borrowing cost higher for longer.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
I don't think that it's likely, based on the data
that we have, that the next move that we make
would be a rate hike. I think it's more likely
that we'll be at a place where we hold the
policy rate where it is.
Speaker 3 (00:57):
Fedchhair Ja Powell, speaking earlier today at an event in Amsterdam,
he said that he expects inflation will move lower on
a monthly basis. However, price figures in the first quarter
have tempered that confidence.
Speaker 2 (01:10):
Just a bit.
Speaker 3 (01:11):
He spoke right after the PPI data that we had
here in the US for the month of April. It
showed that inflation at the wholesale level rose last month,
more than forecast.
Speaker 2 (01:21):
Let's get to Sean Darby, Managing director at Mizuho Securities Asia,
to talk a little bit more about the impact that
that report has and also how he sees markets moving
over the short term. Sewan, thank you very much for
being with us here in our studios on a holiday
but his birthday in Hong Kong, but nice to have
you join us here. So when we look at that
(01:42):
producer prise data, of course the headline data for month
on month was kind of hot, but then you had
these other mitigating factors on balance, neutral in your view
or what.
Speaker 5 (01:54):
Well, certainly the boommark it took it reason to be well,
so the curve actually dropped across all of the duration.
I think one of the interesting thing aspects of the
producer prices is actually corporates are attaining very very strong
pricing power, and that doesn't really mean that we're going
to be seeing a recession that soon. Companies are not
(02:14):
in a position at the moment to having to either
protect margins particularly or indeed feeling that they're going to
have to lower prices to either clear infantry or garner demand.
So all of this really, I think reinstates fairchairperson's power view,
which is that it's going to be higher for longer,
and we're not going to be really seeing rate cuts
(02:35):
potentially really until fourth quarter, and certainly the equity market
isn't going to get any relief from a very big
series of rate cuts and perhaps until twenty twenty five.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
You don't seem to be too surprised by that notion.
Were you expecting the fair to be on hold for
the foreseeable future.
Speaker 5 (02:53):
I really feel that at the moment, if you look
at things like producer prices or credit spreads, credit spreads
are very very tight. For where we are on the cycle,
you have an inverted Yelk curve, credit spreads tight. They
have not really presaged a recession at all over the
last year. In fact, it's failed. I think the FED
recession model has been at sixty percent for nearly twelve
(03:15):
months now, and the reason for all that is that
as people enter the workforce, they actually produce goods that
economic output picks up and you get a sort of
an enduring profit cycles people as wages feedback into the economy.
So ironically, at the moment it's been more of a
labor problem in this cycle than anything else. And certainly,
(03:37):
certainly in that respect, you're not really going to see
economic activity fade until sometime in twenty twenty five.
Speaker 2 (03:44):
Yeah, And that seems to be most important because the
earnings appear to be tied to economic growth and also
the efficiency of companies and such. And as long as
inflation doesn't get a lot worse, if it starts to
go to the other direction, then all bets are off,
I suppose, because higher interest rates on the FED would
definitely get markets jangled. But as long as we see growth,
(04:07):
sort of with the job growth of one hundred and
seventy five thousand, that's not bad news is good news,
that's like ok news is good news. Yeah.
Speaker 5 (04:15):
I think the reality is that globally we've had a
enormous period of immigration, and the OECD wrote about this
and its outlooked I think two weeks ago that one
of the important factors that's allowed the economic recovery to
be extended was the fact that immigration has returned as
being a big swing factor for labor markets in places
(04:38):
like the US, UK and Australia, and that has been
perhaps the savior actually for these central banks in a
sense that they've not had to face recessionary problems. I
think the other thing to remember is that the two
cycles proceeding, so the cycle before the COVID was a
deflationary one. COVID itself was a defe inflationary experience, but
(05:02):
actually all the cycles preceding those have actually been inflationary,
and we're just sort of going back to learn what
it looks like or how things are during a period
where you are fighting inflation rather than fighting deflation. I
think that's also been part of the problem for the
bomb market. Nobody really has had the experience, including myself
as well.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
Let's talk a little bit about geopolitics, because we have
these new tariffs now on certain Chinese goods being implemented
by the Bide administration. Not surprising that Beijing is going
to blow back just a little bit and vow measures
of its own. How do you kind of evaluate where
we are right now in terms of US China tensions.
Speaker 5 (05:40):
Well, I think the way to succinctly put it is
things are not getting better and they're getting worse. And
for me, I think we're still going to be in
a cycle even after the US elections, in which the
whole trade sanctions and restrictions are going to be an
ongoing theme. Actually, so I think the way to put
it is that we're going to have to live with
(06:01):
further restrictions, further tariffs, and particularly at the high end
on the technology end, I don't see any glimmer of
light in which the US is going to relax any
of those exports or restrictions on semiconductors. So again, I
think we're in a there's no sort of endgame in this.
(06:22):
This is going to be a theme that's going to
continue for the next three to four years.
Speaker 2 (06:26):
And US China rivalry on semiconductors brings Taiwan into the picture. Now.
Next week will be an important week. William Lai will
be inaugurated as Taiwan president. He supports the status quo
with China Sean, but he calls himself a pragmatic worker
for Taiwan independence, and the way that he gets at
(06:48):
that is that Taiwan has de facto independence now and
that's what the status quo means, But I'm curious whether
or not you think we might see a Taiwan discount
to be applied to the equity market there if he
gets plucky.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
I think the unusual thing at the moment is that,
for first of all, Taiwan and China's economies are inextricably linked.
So if you look at the pmis over a three
or four year period, they generally sort of follow each other.
There's a symbiotic relationship between the growth rates. The second
(07:22):
thing is that in many respects, the economy now is
in its own sort of inflationary boom, which is similar
to what Japan is, where you have a very undervalued currency,
you have a central bank that's pretty much quite far
behind the curve and raising rates in contrast to everyone else.
And thirdly, everywhere you look, whether it's from land prices
(07:45):
or producer prices or CPI core CPI, actually Taiwan's is
actually inflating still. So in that respect, the political or
geopolitics is actually being sort of surpassed by the fact
that's actually the economy is doing very well and on
a very different path to what everyone else is experiencing globally.
(08:08):
They've also got labor shortages and an extremely low unemployment rate.
So I think in the sense, geopolitics is actually being
pushed to one side because the economy is actually doing
pretty well in Taiwan.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
But I'm curious about the outlook. If we can agree
that there is just so much concentration of semiconductor of
production visa v TSMC, and if countries like the US
are a little uneasy about the level of concentration, and
other chip makers seek to diversify away from Taiwan, including TSMC,
which is actually helping to create facilities in the United States,
(08:42):
might the economy go into a lower gear as the
world becomes less dependent on chip manufacturing from TSMC. Or
is it simply too early to make that call.
Speaker 5 (08:54):
No, that's a fair point, I think at the moment,
as I said, you have this sort of inflationary bio
which is working through the economy, mainly be caused by
a very cheap exchange rate. But your point is well taken.
The irony is that the competitive part of Taiwan semiconductors
is to some extent being hollowed out through this sort
(09:15):
of off you know, sort of on shoring in the
developed world, and in that respect, you're not going to
get the same level of output growth that you would
have had in pre proceeding cycles, you know, sometime in
two or three years from now, so that you know,
in fairness that time one is going to sort of
see below trend growth from from twenty twenty five twenty
(09:37):
six purely because they don't have that same facilities in situ.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
But you are sounding like a Taiwan bull and you're
you're also quite bulled up on the hanksayg Tech Index,
it is up thirty four percent since February first. When
is enough enough? Well?
Speaker 5 (09:55):
I think the interesting thing about the Hansen Tech Index
is that it's a pure or look at everything that
is more on the exports side and nothing to do
with real estate or finance. So it's a very clean
way of getting to grips of how China's sort of
other part of the economy is doing. And in fairness,
(10:18):
the companies, I think we we calculated eighty percent of
them have cat net cash from the balance sheet free
cash flow yields on average seven percent. It was a
sort of outstanding bargain and in that respect, I think
there was a fair degree of catch up for the
HS tech compared to all the other global indices in
the past past two quarters.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
All right, Sean, thanks very much for joining us here
on a holiday in our studios in Hong Kong. Sean Darby,
Managing director at Mizuho Securities.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Earlier today in the States, President Biden unveiled sweeping tariffs
and an increase in terraffs on a range of Chinese imports.
We're going to take a closer look now with our
own John lu Bloomberg Executive editor, joining us from our
studios in Beijing. John, it's always a pleasure. I'm going
to go out on a limb and say that this
really didn't go down too well in Beijing. Is that
(11:15):
a fair statement.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I think that is a fair statement. This adds additional
pressure on a relationship that is already very tense, that
is already full of fractious disagreements, and so this is
not making things any easier in any way.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
John, Is it also fair to say the flip side
of it, that this may be a little bit more
political on both sides than it is a real teeth
in the action.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I think some of these tariffs were designed for maximum
political advantage, and maybe not so much for the impact
on the economy. For example, there are not really many
Chinese electric cars being exported to the United States from China,
and putting quadrupling the tariffs on those shipments is not
(12:05):
going to have that big of an impact on bilateral trade.
I think we saw something earlier when the Biden administration
talked about putting additional tariffs on Chinese steel and aluminum,
which the US buys very little of from China, and
so a lot of this is more show than it
is impact.
Speaker 3 (12:22):
But I'm wondering if the subtext here is what we
need to be talking about, which is the issue of overcapacity.
I mean, that's been right out in the open from
both sides, right, not just from Treasury Secretary Yellen, but
the German Chancellor all Off Schultz as well.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
That is a big issue because the concern is that
Chinese factories are making far more than can be consumed domestically,
and so the obvious answer for China when it comes
to what to do with all these goods being produced
is to export them. And if cutting the prices, exporting
those things at a cheaper price helps to get moved,
(12:59):
the move the product, and that is an obvious strategy,
and that is something that would of course concern the Germans,
the French, the Americans, lots of different markets around the world.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
And of course we started out with talking about China's response.
We haven't seen it yet. It may amount to something
quite material. It could be something directed at Tesla and
companies like Apple. Have you been sort of looking at
this and what are we thinking?
Speaker 1 (13:27):
So the Chinese have come out so far and said
that they will take action to protect their rights. I
think as they're trying to figure out what they should
do next, they are going to have to balance a
number of different factors. One, going after companies like Apple
or Tesla. That's not going to be good for China's
own economy because those companies are such large presences here
(13:50):
because they employ so many people. Discouraging foreign investment in
China is not going to help Hug get the economy
booming again. And so he's going to have to try
and find some action that is both going to appease
a domestic audience which thinks that the government needs to
stand up for China, but then also not shoot China
(14:11):
in its own foot.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
Don't we need to also take a look at proportionality.
I mean the leverages that we're talking about here from
the US that covers around eighteen billion in goods for
an eighteen trillion dollar economy, So this is literally a
drop in the bucket.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Well, I think the Chinese will take that into consideration,
and I think there is a lot of mutual understanding
that ahead of this year's presidential election in the United
States that the rhetoric coming out of Washington is going
to be more heated than normal. And I think also
factoring into this is, of course the other candidate in
the race, former President Trump, and some of the more
(14:49):
aggressive tariffs that he's talked about taking or putting into
place if he were elected president. So there's a number
of things in play here.
Speaker 2 (14:59):
John. Obviously, trade is a big issue for China, but
Taiwan is probably the biggest issue. And we have William
Lai to be inaugurated next week as president. He supports
the status quo, but he's always kind of leaned a
little bit toward Taiwan independence. He calls himself a pragmatic
worker for Taiwan independence. Should we be concerned that Taiwan,
(15:20):
the economy, semiconductors, everything may get a little bit of
a downgrade going forward as a result of that tricky relationship.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
So I think Taiwan is definitely the most dangerous, dangerous
flashpoint in this relationship between the United States and China.
Whether William Laie's ascendence to the presidential office will be
the spark that sets off some sort of conflict, I
think that looks relatively unlikely at the moment. We are
expecting him to stick to the line from the previous
(15:52):
administration of Taiing I. He has said that publicly he
plans to be a continuity president of anything. I think
the speech that he will be giving his inauguration will
be tuned to try and both show him and his
party is defending Taiwan, but also not to cause any
upsetness in Beijing or Washington.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
John, it's always a pleasure. Thank you so much for
making time to chat with us. Covered a lot of
ground there with John Lou Bloomberg executive editor in Beijing.
We go to China next. And those big earnings reports
that we have been waiting for ten Cent Holdings, on
one hand, reported better than expected earnings, a sixty two
(16:36):
percent surge. Okay, so that's the good news. On the
other hand, Ali Baba with a plunge and profit. We're
talking about net income tumbling eighty six percent. That's after
an unexplained write down for losses in Baba's publicly traded holdings.
There was a little bit of commonality though, among these
two giants. Both ten Cent and Ali Baba reported better
(16:57):
than expected revenue growth, although it was in the single digits. However,
there was divergence when you look at the share prices
here in New York. The ADRs and ten Cent up
about four point seven percent, but the ADRs and Baba
were down six percent.
Speaker 2 (17:12):
Brian Well joining us now to discuss this as Lad Savov,
Bloomberg Tech editor, who is looking very closely at the
ten Cent and Baba earnings and was on our blog,
really getting to all the comments as they came. Vlad,
nice to have you with us in our studios. Let's
start off with Ali Baba first, because one of the
things that we observed over the past many, many weeks
(17:34):
was that Ali Baba faces a lot more stiff competition
at the moment than ten Cent does, and so ten
cents earnings had to beat and we can talk about
that too. But Ali Bab a couple of things. Doug
mentioned one that basically there was some unexplained losses in
its holdings of public companies, and that's one thing, but
it also had to spend more to fight off the
(17:55):
competition and it was costly.
Speaker 6 (17:57):
Absolutely, Brian, and I think you got to exactly right.
Ali Baba's competitive landscape is so different from ten cents.
Speaker 7 (18:04):
In years past.
Speaker 6 (18:05):
It used to be that Ali Baba was the big
dog in e commerce and in the same way that
ten Cent is with games publishing, and ten Cent situation
is still the case. It's still the world's biggest games publisher.
He's the biggest by far in China. It one has
Netty's to compete with, whereas Alibaba. On the other hand,
you have by Dance coming in, you have PDD. Everyone
is getting into its turf. So one of the things
(18:27):
that stood out from Ali Baba's announcement was they mentioned,
with respect to Timo and Talbau price competitive. They mentioned
a couple of times in their announcements. So really what
they're saying is it costs us money to compete. These
guys are undercutting us, so we need to undercut them back.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
You know, sometimes the candy. I mean, at least these
days for the market has been any mention of artificial intelligence.
Where do Baba and Tencent come down? Visa VI you
know this move into AI, right.
Speaker 6 (18:56):
That's another commonality for both of them. They consider AI
a central pillar. Now the detail is where it becomes interesting,
and we don't have enough to EATA from either company.
I mean, one of the things that Ali Baba has
mentioned for a couple of quarters now is that they
will deploy generative AI to help make its e commerce
more appealing.
Speaker 7 (19:13):
I don't see how that's happening. I mean, these are
two very different things.
Speaker 6 (19:17):
Generaty of AI is something that's still very nascent, very early,
and nobody's really figured out exactly how to deploy it.
Whereas e commerce there are proven ways to entice people
to buy stuff. And actually at the moment, the thing
that's really doing it is short video is stuff like
TikTok and dowy in and that's the thing that Tencent
is leaning into with wechair and it's we chat video.
(19:37):
So one of the big figures that Tencent reported is
eighty percent growth. Can use the time spent in we
chat video accounts and what really that says we chat
vide account. You can equate that to ten cents TikTok.
The more people use in that service, the more that
ten Cent commnetize, the more it can introduce e commerce opportunities.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
So, in other words, we should not read that twenty
six percent rise in ad sales by ten Cent. We
probably shouldn't take that as a good barometer on the
Chinese economy. It's more like the algorithm. It's more like
what they're doing to attract and keep Wi Chat users
with those short form videos.
Speaker 7 (20:11):
That's right, Brian.
Speaker 6 (20:12):
If you want to flatter a Tencent for their execution,
you're free to do that.
Speaker 7 (20:15):
But I think you're right. I think you're correct.
Speaker 2 (20:18):
Well, I was going to flatter you by saying you're
the big dog looking at these big tech companies.
Speaker 7 (20:24):
Well, here's the thing.
Speaker 6 (20:26):
Ali Baba's chairman, Joe Zie He said that the company
is seeing positive signs of the Chinese consumer being willing
to spend. Again, that was not the same sentiment coming
out of Tencent. Martin Laud, the president of Tencent. He
said that the Chinese economy is mixed, and therefore the
advertising landscape necessarily is also mixed. So ten Cent itself
(20:46):
is taking the credit for this as well. They're saying
that they're doing better, and they do give some credit
to AI helping them optimize ads on and other platforms.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
So when you're a company like Ali Baba Vlad and
you're struggling, is the remedy, at least in the short
term stock buyback? Is that enough to kind of get
the market a little enthused?
Speaker 6 (21:07):
Well, Brian said it. I mean, you said it yourself.
The stock market is not reacting positively. They did announce
a four billion.
Speaker 7 (21:13):
Dollar buyback, so everyone is quite serious.
Speaker 6 (21:16):
One of the really interesting things across the tech ecosystem,
no matter the geography, is that everyone's doing a buyback
right now. We're talking Sony in Japan, Ali Baba, Tense
has one in ongoing. Apple announced the world's biggest buyback
ever Google Meta. Everyone is doing it right now because
they have been sitting on these big cash piles and
at the same time as they investing heavily in AI.
Speaker 7 (21:37):
And this is true both for Tense and Ali Baba.
Speaker 6 (21:40):
One of the ways that they can, like you say,
you sustain the share price and give some satisfaction to
investors is to give some money back.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
We saw a little bit of caution in games for
Tencent to walk us through some of the details there.
Speaker 6 (21:55):
Well, I mean, this is the other really interesting thing
to hear Tencent talk about his business. It keeps about
high quality growth and how it's kind of shifting away
from games. But then to hear the analysts on the
analysts call and their priorities and questions, they keep focusing
on games.
Speaker 7 (22:08):
And here's the thing. Tencent is now.
Speaker 6 (22:10):
Talking more about grocery septs as well as revenue, which
kind of muddies the picture. So if you look at
domestic games, they were up three percent in grocery septs
but down two percent in revenue.
Speaker 7 (22:20):
So those are the growth figures.
Speaker 6 (22:21):
Much like e commas for Ali Baba, that everyone is
really paying attention to gaming is still the biggest thing,
and that growth rate is never rising above three four
percent each quarter.
Speaker 7 (22:32):
And it's tricky.
Speaker 6 (22:33):
It's tricky for Tencent to do anything about this because
they are relying on a lot of evergreen games and
they don't really have that games pipeline that's necessary to
fire up new growth.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
You know, when I think about Ali Baba and the
fact that we had put so much stock in the
possibility of some spinoffs here IPOs of different divisions. I
mean that seems to be really off the table right now.
I mean, is that kind of eventually occur. Do you
think is it in Baba's best interest to spinoffs of
these divisions.
Speaker 6 (23:02):
Well, never say never on that happening again. But let's
bear in mind that that was under the leadership of
Daniel Jiang who was the previous CEO, and the new CEO,
Eddie Wu, and even the earnings announcement last night very
much stressed the synergy. I mean, this is the funny
thing we talked about IPOs and spinning stuff off. Now
Alibaba is all about synergy. One of the ways that
they highlighted this was Kaine out the logistics unit. They
(23:24):
said several times it's doing a lot to help both
e commas domestically, but also the international arms things like
Ali Express. A lot of the growth for the logistics
unit is coming out of helping the international e commerce,
which is actually the one with the healthiest growth.
Speaker 7 (23:38):
That grew by forty five percent.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
I'll give you some numbers here, which I know you know,
but the audience may not. That's quite astounding. Ten cents.
Revenue was roughly twenty two billion ali Baba's thirty one billion,
yet ten cents market cap is double that of Ali Baba.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
That tells you a lot.
Speaker 6 (23:56):
Oh absolutely well, I mean as a gamer, I can
just say that it tells you a lot about the
value of games. But really the way that you should
think about this is games software. These are things with
a low cost base, Like the marginal cost of selling
another game is nothing basically versus Ali Baba having to
do all the logistics, having to do all this investment
in data centers and so on in order to provide
(24:19):
its AI.
Speaker 7 (24:19):
Services to people.
Speaker 6 (24:21):
And the really interesting thing with Tencent, and it's something
that they kind of picked up on in the call,
was the fact that they can entice people via we
chat via all these consumer services into it's broader ecosystem
of services that includes AI, generative AI and such other
subscriptions that they might be able to provide.
Speaker 3 (24:40):
So vilaib when you consider guidance, I mean, is this
something that was played up a lot? I mean, and
what do we know about the trajectory of growth that
these companies see right now in the current environment.
Speaker 6 (24:51):
Well, I don't know that we've got great visibility from
either company, I mean, Ali Baba's said that they will
keep investing in Taubau and team or the team, or
they will keep competing with the likes of PDD that
I mentioned.
Speaker 7 (25:04):
As with Tencent.
Speaker 6 (25:05):
They do anticipate things improving in the second half, they said.
And one of the interesting things, I mean, they mentioned
a number of games that they consider kind of flagship
games that are going to fire up growth in their estimation.
I'm not really sure about this because the blockbuster games
that we see on the global stage half the time,
they're kind of unpredictable. I mean, we had a game
like Powell that came out of nowhere. So the thing
(25:27):
again with the gaming ecosystem is you're not really sure
what is going to be an absolute runaway hit. So
we kind of have to play that as it goes.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
And just briefly, I know you're peripherally familiar with ant
group as well. Quarterly earnings down nineteen percent, struggling, struggling
to find new drivers of growth.
Speaker 6 (25:47):
And honestly, I kind of explained that one because being
based here in Hong Kong, anytime I get to a checkout,
I see Alipay as an option, not so much.
Speaker 7 (25:54):
We chat pay.
Speaker 6 (25:55):
So as far as Ali Baba announce, getting the distribution,
getting the reach, and getting the retailers to embrace their
payment system.
Speaker 7 (26:03):
Even here in Hong Kong, it's kind of.
Speaker 6 (26:06):
Ubiquitous and probably that is the strongest indicator to the
earlier point Brian about the Chinese consumer. So maybe Ali
Baba tells us is seeing signs of it recovering, but
the facts that telling us otherwise.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
Yeah, all right, thanks Flad, Let's have off with us,
Bloomberg Tech editor talking Ali Bomba and ten Cent and
even a little there on.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
End.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
This has been the Bloomberg Daybreak Asia podcast, bringing you
the stories making news and moving markets in the Asia Pacific.
Visit the Bloomberg Podcast channel on YouTube to get more
episodes of this and other shows from Bloomberg. Subscribe to
the podcast on Apple, Spotify, or anywhere else you'll listen,
and always on Bloomberg Radio, the Bloomberg Terminal, and the
(26:48):
Bloomberg Business app.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Nikki Glaser Podcast
Every week comedian and infamous roaster Nikki Glaser provides a fun, fast-paced, and brutally honest look into current pop-culture and her own personal life.