October 30, 2025 • 52 mins
Robin Lawrence was stabbed to death in her home on November 18, 1994.
She was stabbed 49 times and her body wasn't found for two days. Her 2-year-old daughter, Nicole, was not harmed, but for two days she went without food, water, or her necessary medication having had a liver transplant as an infant. Evidence was found, including DNA, but no arrest was made, and the case went cold.
Joseph Scott Morgan and Dave Mack talk about the background of the case and how a detective noticed a brown stain on a wash cloth that contained all the evidence needed to catch the killer....30 years after the murder.
Transcribe Highlights
00:00.48 Introduction - Serial Killer
02:28.94 Only killed once
05:26.03 1994 Cold Case Murder solved
10:06.28 2-year-old, alone with dead mom
15:01.19 Victim stabbed 49 times
20:13.30 Nicole used tissues to stop blood
25:34.21 Suspect attracted to victim
30:16.59 "Gaping" wound usually a slice
35:18.47 Blood and DNA talked about in news
40:29.10 Victim's father, 101, lived to see arrest
44:35.96 Cold Case Detectives reach out to Parabon Nano Labs
50:25.28 Conclusion
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Body doubts, but Joseph's gotten more. You know, the term
serial killer, it's not something that's been around for a
long long time. As a matter of fact, there's kind
of a famous television show that's based on an equally
famous book written by John Douglas, mind Hunter, and that
(00:26):
book and the television show kind of explore the idea
of the origins of that terminology. And it's kind of interesting.
In one of the episodes, I kind of, you know,
bat this back and forth. You know, what do you
call somebody that commits I don't know, sequential killing. They
(00:47):
landed though, back then in the seventies on this term
serial killer, and many people have tried to define it.
And there's a variety of different types of killers that
are out there. You have mass killers, you have spree killers.
And look, if we sat here long enough, we could
probably make up a few of our own. I'm certainly
(01:11):
positive that some academic somewhere is trying to construct some
new narrative that will place their name in the pantheon
of quote unquote researchers into this type of behavior. But never,
at any point in time in my career or in
(01:34):
my time covering cases Have I ever heard of a
serial killer that was responsible for just one death? Coin
of an oddity, isn't it. Today on Body Bags, we're
going to talk about a case from over thirty five
(01:56):
years ago, a case that involves a beautiful mama who
died left behind a two year old daughter, and a
guy that turns out to be the perpetrator that says
he was in fact a serial killer but only killed once.
(02:19):
Coming to you from the beautiful campus of Jacksonville State University,
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. I love
the word confounding, Dave. I don't have an opportunity to
use it a lot, but I got to tell you
(02:41):
when I began to kind of read the story of
Robin Lawrence and this journey that her case because she
can no longer take a journey. She's been dead now
since nineteen ninety four, but this journey of her case
kind of taken place. Of the things that was rather
confounding is that a person that is now associated with
(03:05):
her death claims that they are were a serial killer,
but they've only killed one person. A bit of a
head scratcher, right, I mean, that's where you know it
really trum confounding comes in here.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I started looking at it when you send it to
me because I thought this is remarkable. I mean another story,
another case, and I mean this in the nicest way.
And we apologize a lot for being flippant about some
of the ways we sometimes refer to cases being fascinating
or incredible or whatever. In this particular case, I think
(03:40):
about a two year old girl who grew up without
her mother. On November eighteenth, nineteen ninety four, a thirty
seven year old mother married was murdered in her home.
She was murdered rob and Lawrence was in a violent
(04:03):
and vicious way that she was stabbed forty nine times
and was not discovered for two days. Her husband was
overseas at the time, and he was trying to get
her on the phone, and he couldn't reach her, and
so he finally calls the next door neighbor and says, hey,
(04:24):
would you go check on Robin. I can't get her
on the phone, And so the neighbor goes over there
on November twentieth, nineteen ninety four, at noon twelve thirty,
and she gets to the back door and sees that
the screen has been ripped out and she opens it.
I can picture her calling out Robin, and little two
(04:47):
year old girl with a way loaded down diaper comes
to the door and greets her, and she says, well,
where's your mommy, where's your mommy? And she sees the
blood and she starts going through the house and finds
thirty seven year old Robin Lawrence dad. She immediately backs
(05:09):
out of the house, grabs the child, and goes to
a neighbor's and calls. Because she doesn't know how long
she doesn't know is the killer still in the house.
I mean, you wouldn't know. I mean, if you see
something like that for the first time, you don't know.
But that's what we're talking about today because that case,
from that moment on November twentieth, nineteen ninety four, until
(05:29):
recently was an unsolved murder. Nobody knew. And I think
about that two year old girl, yep, not knowing her
mother really other than what her friends and family told
her about her mom. Yeah, I've got children in that
age group. You have a son in that age group.
I mean, we've got kids in this that we can
(05:50):
identify with. And there were no answers for that.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Daughter, none whatsoever can you imagine and you know, I
think probably this is kind of embroidered with another level
of fear. Can you imagine going through life and you
know that your mama has been subjected to this level
of brutality and violence and maybe just maybe every night
(06:16):
when you close your eyes because you were actually there
when it happened. You don't have a memory of it,
but you were actually there when it happened. And I'm wondering,
you know, are you thinking that some horror awaits you
just around the corner, because that person could pop back
into your life at any moment time because they're never caught.
(06:39):
You know, this case actually reminds me, and you're going
to know exactly what I'm talking about here that you
think about this particular case. I'm going to mention going
back to twenty eighteen. I'm sorry, sixteen. I'm thinking about
(07:01):
the Pokedon Masker, you know, which you and I covered extensively,
and I've been on well a couple of things. I've
been on KT Studios. Big shout out to our friends
at KAT on their podcast The Piketon Masker. I think
we did three seasons of it, and you know, I
was also on the documentary on Oxygen that involved a
(07:25):
small child. I don't know if you remember this, when
the the ant came to the door at the home
of one of the victims and knocked on the door,
and a small child answered the door. And the child
(07:49):
looked at the grown woman standing at the door, and
the grown woman said, where's where's mommy and daddy because
she had gone to a previous house and they didn't
get an answer at the door. And the child looked
into the eyes of this adult and said, mommy and
(08:12):
daddy are playing zombie. And you know they there was
also a baby in the house there too, that had
been you know, lying in the blood, you know, in
between the two parents in the bed that had been executed,
shot multiple times, and both that child that was to
(08:36):
a certain degree was able to communicate as best they could.
I escapes me right now precisely the age of that baby,
but you know in their sibling who was you know,
a baby baby was removed from the home, and you know,
you think back to it, I don't. I don't remember
things from when I was two or three years old.
(08:57):
I think the earliest remembrance is I might have might
be when I'm four maybe, but this is something that's
going to hang on you for the rest of your life, Dave,
I mean forever and ever. This is going to be
with you because you're going to be associated with that.
You're going to be identified with that any kind of
Just imagine if there's any family members that are around,
(09:22):
every time they see you. They might not say it
to your face, but every time they see you, you're
going to be associated with that event. They might look
on you with pity. They might say, Wow, they were
very blessed or lucky, or how you want to frame it,
that they weren't you know that this child wasn't killed
as well, he or she is surviving all this time,
(09:43):
and what a legacy, man.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Joan, there's even more. Nicole the little two year old
when the neighbor, her name is Lori Lindbergh, Lori Lindbergh,
came and found Nicole the baby and she calls nine
one one, but she russia is Nicole to the hospital
because she didn't know. She knew she had been there
and had experienced something, but didn't know exactly what. She
(10:08):
knows that she's wearing a diaper that hasn't been changed.
In a long time. The child hasn't eaten or drank.
She was dehydrated, and they did take care of that.
But you know, the thing about Nicole is her Nicole
was very fragile. She had had a liver transplant right
after she was born, so she didn't have was not
(10:28):
in the best of health on a daily basis. And
this two year old went without any kind of help
for two days and so there was some serious concern there.
And thankfully the neighbor knew that and got her that,
you know, she got her to help right away. Or
we could be looking at multiple deaths here.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Well not only multiple deaths. But mind you, Dave, this
goes back to my old assertation about I always say
the poem. I'm not going to do the same thing here,
but the old poem about you know, for the want
of a name, she was lost and one of shoe
a horse was lost, message and so forth, so on.
If that child, just folks listening to me, if that
(11:09):
child had died as a result of this brother, that's
that's a double homicide there, you know, because that child's
death or that child's life, let's put it this way,
is directly dependent their life. Their existence is directly dependent
upon survival of the parent. The fact that that child survived,
(11:32):
particularly being in such fragile health. My lord, a liver
transplant in and of itself. And look, child's two years old, Dave,
you're not that far down range from this event that
has taken place. The child is still fragile, all right,
and probably was fragile, and just from a physical standpoint,
(11:53):
not to mention what has occurred in the wake, you know,
the absence of this loving mother, you know that.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Took care for Medicaid. When you get a transplant, you
have to take immuno suppressors. Is that what they're called.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Well, yeah, there's a whole battery of things that you
have to take just to make sure first off that
the transplant is going to be viable and then to
get your system back on the line. This is a
very It's the the event itself is so invasive, and
we are, you know, in a position. Uh. You know,
(12:27):
our liver literally, you know, it controls so many aspects
to our survivability. Uh, it's a rather resilient organ. But
the fact that you know, this liver was compromised, uh,
to the point where they felt the need that she
would you know, she required a transplant, such fragile health.
(12:48):
And also there there are circumstances down the road, you know,
throughout life. These children, anybody that has gone through a
liver or any kind of organ transplant, they have to
be monitor very, very carefully. This is not something like
you're going to run down to the dock in the box,
you know, the GP, you know where they're going to say, hey,
how are you doing, you know that sort of thing. No,
(13:10):
you're going to have to go to a clinic. You're
gonna have to go to a hepatic specialist that can
follow you and continue to pull labs and do all
this stuff and just kind of, you know, watch you
as you develop. And who does that? Who does that? Well,
it's Mama, always Mama, It always is. You know, dad's
dad is there. Dad provides, but Mama's caretaker. Mama's a lover,
(13:35):
you know, in the family. She's the one that makes
everybody feel secure, wraps your arms around. She's once you
go to you know, when you cry and you need
you need care and compassion and all those sorts of things.
She's also the one to make sure you make it
the doctor's point of right, because I can tell you,
as an old hand at being a daddy, I can't
remember that stuff. It's something that I was always working.
(13:56):
It's not something. Don't ask me to remember an appointment
I can't remember. I can't remember. You know, I've got
a graduate assistance, like I have to ask her all
the time. I was like, what am I teaching on today?
You know? So don't ask a dad to do it.
It's a mom that does it. And the fact that
this precious little angel was robbed bye, and I'll go
(14:20):
ahead and say it by an agent of Satan himself
that showed up in that house that night and drove
that knife into this mother's body over and over and
over again, and allowed that two year old to remain
(14:40):
in that house, not knowing what would become of her.
This is the definition of pure evil. Forty nine times day.
(15:05):
Forty nine times. You know, there's there's overkill, then there's overkill.
You know, you start to get you start to get above.
I think personally, you start to get above, you start
to get into double digit numbers, you're overkill at that
(15:25):
point in time. But forty nine times that this blade
was driven into this mother's body and then there are
no answers, and I can tell you the scene you know,
you mentioned, and we've talked about on bodybacks. We you know,
use the term finder, and they're an interesting group of people.
They really are. You know, when it comes down to
(15:46):
those those individuals, it's not cops. It's not cops. It's
certainly not me. It's civilians that are just minding their
own business, going through life, doing their thing. The population
of people. If there could be a study, and I
maybe there is a study out there, and any of
my academic friends that are listening, I urge, I urge
(16:08):
you to explore the segment of the population those individuals
that are the finders of dead bodies. Can you imagine
going into that house and you know, observing that horror?
You know, because I was just lecturing yesterday to my
(16:28):
intro forensics class and we're doing a roology DNA section
right now here in fall semester at jack State, and
I'm into the DNA, you know, kind of introducing the
students to this, but I start off with soerroology, which
is the study of blood, and that's where most DNA scientists,
you know, they come from a background of zerology, and
I was talking about you know, generally blood is considered
(16:51):
to be the most recognizable, I think, to the general public,
the most recognizable type of evidence that we think about
death investigation. And to be there in that environment, looking
at this trail of blood that winds up leading back,
leading back to this mother's remains, I think one of
(17:14):
the things. And this is rather gruesome, but I'm going
to go ahead and say it, because you know, we
have to talk about these things. I'm wondering if this
how many times this child went back and forth to
mama's remains, because the child knows where mama, Mama sleeps,
(17:34):
the child is And there's nothing more precious in the world,
is there that when you have a baby. And I
miss those days, I really do. I'm not saying I
miss the tears, but I miss I miss those little
arms reaching up to me, wanting me to comfort them. Okay,
and how much more so would a mother. But that
(17:55):
child wandering through that house with that dirty diaper, going
back to her remains every single time, the body getting
colder and colder, that blood getting tackier and tackier. To
really kind of lace this up, I'm wondering where their
(18:15):
bloody little footprints on the surface of that floor where
their contact, Traces of blood on the wall where the
child had touched mom smears, you know, down at child
level on the wall, the child crying, aimlessly, wanting to
be comfort, dirty diaper, nothing to drink, you know, there's
(18:37):
no bottle for the child, there's no water in a
sippy cup, there's no animal crackers, there's nothing. There's just silence,
silence in this house. It's you begin and many times
for us that go out on scenes like this, you
start to think about the only thing you can think about,
(18:59):
really become obsessed with it, is I want to hold
somebody responsible. I want to do everything that I can.
And you try not to treat cases differently day, but
when you walk into a horror show like this and
you see these things, it all of a sudden really
intensifies your ability to focus. I think there are cases,
(19:21):
and I'll admit to it, there are cases out there
that as a practitioner I was more focused on because
I don't know if it's that little flame of anger
that stirs up in your soul or whatever it is,
It's like I want to make sure somebody's hell responsible
for this so evidence in this case. I think, and
I'm sure that many of the investigators back then during
(19:43):
this period of time, back in ninety four, they wanted
to put somebody's feet to the fire in this but
the fact that this thing was cold for so long,
everything that they did back in ninety four turns on
what happened eventually in the future with this case.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
You know, Joe, you mentioned foot prints from two year old.
You know what they did find. The detective on the
scene that day that took all the photos and you know,
went into us again, not it was an active scene,
but there was an activity going on. You know, you
had the body of the deceased, and what they did
(20:27):
find they found tissues. They found little tissues around the
body that had blood on them. And the detective believes
that little Nicole, at two years old, she knew what
blood was because you know, moms used tissues and band
aids to clean up blood. And the detective things based
(20:47):
on where they found these tissues and how many they
saw that that little baby was trying to stop the blood.
But even more than that, you know, we mentioned that
you know, she was dehydrated, you know, she had no food,
no nothing, okay, But one thing they did find all
around Robin's body by empty baby bottles, and because of
(21:11):
where they were placed, the detective thinks that two year
old Nicole was trying to get food for her mother,
you know, trying to wake her up. That she was
trying to tend to the injuries and trying to get
her to that was all she could think to do,
you know. And I'm thinking, that's a two year old
that is just a superhero to do that. And that's what,
(21:33):
you know, was amazing about this incredible scene here. But
look the injuries. The detective says that he believes that
Robin was attacked in her bed and that she fought
her way out of that bed, that she fought hard.
(21:54):
He went on and said that there were a number
of things that stood out. The phone court had been cut,
and this is somebody who came in to do the
devil's work. You mentioned that at the very beginning, and
so cut the phone cord and then let the killing begin.
Apparently because forty nine wounds from a knife, Joe, that's
(22:22):
going to be I know that they mentioned one of
the cuts on the neck was a gaping wound. If
you're in a frenzied type of attack, and I'm sure
you've seen these. What does somebody look like when they've
gone through a fight. You know how exhausting it is
just to throw punches in a fight. If you've ever
been in a real fight that was emotional, and I
(22:45):
mean you're worn out after two minutes. For somebody to
be stabbed that many times, to put up that kind
of fight, I just cannot imagine what the detectives walked
into and what that two year old wanted to be.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
It would have been on the part of the perpetrator.
It would have been incredibly exhausting. The only thing I
could really think about. You know, when anytime I think
about a frenzied killing like this, I don't think about
somebody that is necessarily out of their mind in the
sense that they're having a psychotic break. I'm thinking about
(23:23):
somebody that is stimulated by something. Now, you can be
stimulated by multiple things, Okay, obviously, you know you can
take on some kind of substance, perhaps a mind altering substance.
But I think something that hardens you to the point
where you're pushed beyond your limits. I'm thinking coke meth
(23:44):
Those sorts of things. I'm not looking at this and
thinking heroin addict, all right, something that's going to kind
of drive you down. I'm thinking about somebody. And there's
also another way that you can be stimulated, and that's
a frenzied sex attack, and that's you know, it's you know,
it's the ultimate stimulant to a certain degree, particularly if
(24:06):
somebody is fixated on a victim. And I find it
interesting the fact that the trouble that would have that
an individual would have had to have gone to in
order to do something like cutting a phone line, that
goes to something you and I talk about, right, we
talk about premeditation and planning, I think, and again, knowing
(24:31):
that you know that you're not dealing with somebody that
is in a classic sense that are you know, has
lost their marbles, if you will, that are completely disoriented
to time and space and all those sorts of things.
You're thinking about somebody that's being I hate to use
this term, but they're thoughtful about it, but not thoughtful
(24:52):
in a compassionate way. They're thinking about it. They've worked
this out in their brain. You know, how can I
achieve this? And my end game is I'm not just
doing this to take her life. I'm doing this probably
from the perspective that I'm sexually motivated by it. Something
is attractive to this individual about the victim. And you know,
(25:19):
and also here's something else that's real. Key, who would
in fact have knowledge that she's a single mama, that
she's all alone because you had mentioned that this mama
was absent her husband, that daddy's gone, he's deployed, he's
(25:42):
deployed overseas right now. So who's going to have that
inside knowledge? Right who's going to be aware that she's
going to be there all by herself. Here's one other thing.
Sometimes I think that single mothers in particular, I don't
mean I'm not disrespecting their marriage. And when I say single,
I'm just saying a mother alone with a child. Some
(26:06):
people will say, I think that, you know, woe be
into the person that crosses a mother that has a child.
She's trying to defend them. However, I think that women
with children become a more vulnerable target because women with
children might be so inclined to give into the request
(26:28):
of some sadistic animal that shows up on their doorstep.
As long as you don't hurt my baby. And I
think that some of these predators understand that they kind
of plug into that and want to try to utilize
that as leverage to get what they want. But in
this case, you know, you've got a subject that's here
(26:48):
that's going to try to you know, not just fulfill
some kind of sick fantasy, but they're going to be
there to try to rip her to threads. What does
that say about the subject? You know this is doing
this because you know, yeah, one of the things that
we look for in a case like this from a
forensic standpoint is, first off, we want to understand the
weapon that is used. We want to understand is this
(27:09):
a weapon that is foreign to this domicile. It's not
part of the kitchen, like the kitchen array like with
the knife, Yeah, and we want to know that, and
does it marry up with anything else that might be
in the household. Well, if they show up with a
knife again, Dave preparation right, and then what areas of
(27:32):
the body are are insulted at this point? Is this
somebody that is doing disfigurement? You know, because that shows
for many they'll say that that shows some kind of
personal issue with a person. I've had folks that have
had knives inserted into eyes. I've had people that have
(27:53):
had you know, much like if you've ever you know,
you remember the Heath Ledger Heath Ledger Batman movie where
his cheeks, you know, the actor's cheeks have been cut
on both sides. I've had that happen. I've had lips
that have been removed, foreheads cut. I've had ears part
(28:14):
I've never had ears totally removed, but I've had ears
sliced off or partially sliced off. And then you got
these other other things that occur to where they're actually
attacking the sexual Uh, those those areas of the body
that are identified with sexuality, like with women, the breast,
I've had partial, partial, I don't know how to say it,
(28:39):
a visceration, if you will, of the female sexual organs
where the uterus is positive partially removed. I've had things
inserted into into victims, the buttocks attacked. There was one
case I was just talking about the other day where
a guy tortured a lady in a bathtub, and I
was showing these Crimescene images to my class where the
buttocks was attacked and she had been drowned homicide, drowned
(29:00):
in a bathtub. And the interesting thing about it, Dave,
is that she was her buttocks was stabbed multiple times.
And guess what those injuries on the buttocks were apps
in any kind of hemorrhage. That was all done postmortem.
And so yeah, you look at this, and the people
(29:21):
that do profiling and everything when we, you know, assess
these injuries, we you know, they'll take that data from
these assessments and they'll say, oh, okay, well this begins
to fit some kind of pattern, you know, some kind
of template that they have set out, you know when
we talk about serial perpetrators and sexually motivated things like that,
and they'll look for these little points of identification along
(29:43):
along the way. In Robin Lawrence's case, I'm fascinated by
the specific area of the injuries. You know, we're talking
about a gaping neck wound that we know of where
and generally when you gaping neck wound, yes, that can
be facilitated with a stab wound, but most of the
(30:05):
time gaping. Anytime you hear gaping associated with sharp force injury,
those are most often associated with incized wounds like slices
as opposed to stabs. Now, you can have stabs, and
this is really horrific, but you can have stabs where
they keep the knife in place and they will work
the knife back and forth in the wound. Okay, and
(30:27):
that does happen. But when you get a gaping event
and you have a slice, I don't, And forgive me,
I don't know if I've talked about this before. I
think I probably have, but it bears mentioning again. You'll
get these really irregular, nasty wounds when surgeons, for instance,
are doing surgery. Okay, did you know that our bodies
(30:51):
have contour lines? Our bodies do? They have contour lines?
And these are called lines of Langer. And so if anyone,
particularly old school people that have ever had have ever
had an appendix removed, there's the incision they do with laparoscopically. Now.
But the incision is called a McBurnie incision. If you
(31:12):
look at it, it runs, it kind of runs contrary
to where the appendix is positioned. You think, well, that's
kind of an odd scar house position because I know
anatomically where the appendix is the reason they make the
incision that way is that they're actually following the lines
of Langer. Look, don't believe me, Go and look this up.
(31:33):
You can do Google search. You'll see exactly what I'm
talking about. Just put in lines of Langer human body
and you'll see these contour lines. So most surgeries that
physicians do, you know, with surgical tools, you know, scalpels
and those sorts of things, they will follow the lines
of Langer. If they don't follow the lines of Langer,
you get these real grotesque injuries because you're literally going
(31:55):
against the grain of the body, so it pulls apart.
That's why when people have these disfiguring injuries and they
survived them. You know, if you're blunt force impact where
you get these nasty lacerations, the skin separates in an
odd way, it doesn't follow the contour line, or somebody
has been sliced against the lines of Langer. Again, these
(32:18):
these injuries are wide and gaping and really nasty looking.
They're very hard to close for emergency room positions, by
the way, or surgeons that have to attend to them.
So people don't think about that, you know, they don't.
A lot of people will say, well, they were just
cut to pieces, and you can go out and you
can see injuries on individuals that are sliced up at
(32:42):
a scene, and it just so happens that the perpetrator
kind of fell within the parameters of the lines of
Langer and the injuries will not look as grotesque. But
you can have somebody that is stabbed or cut maybe
one or two times, and it will be one of
the nastiest injuries you've ever seen because it goes completely
against the grain of the body. So you think about
this and with forty nine, trust me, you're not going
(33:06):
to be following the contours of the body. These things
are going to be grotesque. They're talking about this gaping
injury on the neck. It would not surprise me. But
here's the thing. Here's the thing. When you're involved in
this type of violence, I can almost guarantee, just like
old le Cart said many years ago, you are going
(33:31):
to leave a trace behind. My contention is is, if
you're going to perpetrate this kind of homicide that was
(33:55):
perpetrated on Robin, you got to know something about her.
I've gotten to a point in my life now where
I do not believe in coincidences. I no longer believe
that you know most of the time. I do not
believe that there are going to be some dark, unseen
forces that are going to appear out of nothing on
(34:17):
your doorstep. Most of the time, in most of these cases,
there's going to be some I don't know, for lack
of a better term, some knowing going on, if you
know what I mean, Dave.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
I thought it was fascinating this crime taking place in
nineteen ninety four. And if you remember back to that year,
that's the year of the Nicole Simpson Ron Goldman murders.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yes, it was always you know what, I always get
confused about that. I get confused for some reason because
it seems like so many stuff happened back then. Always
get confused about the date of that double homicide, in
the date of the trial, right, because both of them
were like a big deal, you know, so I get
the two things conflated, I think. So anyway, I'm sorry,
(35:09):
I didn't even interrupt you. No, No, it was.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
June ninety four, and you know, there was a lot
of blood unseen. And as the year went on and
they talked about evidence and things like that, it became
something you know, that was talked about. And as they
were talking about the trial, the upcoming trial of the century.
You know that blood evidence would play a big part,
and they've brought in I remember them bringing in these
(35:33):
DNA experts early on, and it was in the news.
And so as this crime takes place and they've got
forty nine wounds, knife wounds, and they're looking for evidence
they can use, I have to imagine that the detectives
on the scene had to be thinking along those lines
(35:53):
that we've got this. It was still very early on,
very early on in what we now learn of DNA,
but they did have it. It was in the news.
People did know about it, and I think they were
probably I'm hoping, schooling themselves as they were going and
looking for any piece of evidence. And in this case,
a detective is looking in the bathroom and something catches
(36:19):
his attention. A towel, O bath towel, and it's on
the rod that goes to the shower, you know. And
this is the difference between the detective and everybody else.
And I think of you as a detective, Joe, because
of how you have to work scenes as well. You
(36:40):
guys don't take anything for granted. It's like everything there
could lead to solving this case. And this detective saw
it appeared to be a washcloth with a little stain
on it, a small brownish stain that if you're looking
for a big red block of blood, that's not what
(37:01):
it looks like. It does tend to look different than
what one would expect. And that small brownish stain on
that washcloth was not discarded.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
No, hang on, let me tell you one more thing,
because we're doing with time here right, Think about if
you've ever seen okay, just imagine this, have you ever
seen like just in your own household? I certainly have
where I don't know for dudes, I guess it's one
you cut yourself shaving right, and when you cut yourself shaving,
(37:38):
you focus on the cut right, and maybe you get
a piece of tissue paper you put on your face
which you don't follow up on or remember is that
now blood has fallen away from your body and it's
landed on some kind of surface or perhaps just like
in this case, you've grabbed a cloth or you've grabbed
a tissue and you've placed it there and you pull
(37:59):
it away and you drop it into trash. Can dave
that blood is not going to appear two days later
like it did when it initially happened, and you're right,
it is brown. I've talked. That's why I always tell
my kids, the students. I was like, you never call
something blood. You can say, maybe it appears like it
(38:20):
might be blood, but I don't know, because Dave, I've
been fooled. I've actually seen melted chocolate, it seems, and
I thought that it was blood and it wasn't blood.
It was melted chocolate. And that does, in fact happen.
I've actually had. The worst are rust stains rust. If
you pay attention, there's certain shades of rust. There's certain
(38:40):
shades of rust out there. When you see it, you
have to do a double take because you're thinking, wait,
is that blood? You know? Now you need to sample it.
You need to have the technician come and take a
sample of it, because again, you don't know. You don't
know until it passes through the rigor of testing. All right,
But the fact that and I love the fact that
(39:01):
you brought it up about this detective again all these
years ago, nineteen ninety four. Brother, he spotted it.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Didn't he and he grabbed it. And that's why that's
the reason we actually are talking about this case today.
Is because that detective did his job and then some
everybody involved in this case. From what I've been ever
since you gave it to me, it kind of caught
me in such a way because it's such a remarkable
thing to me on multiple levels. But a cold case
(39:31):
that get solved, and you know, in this particular case,
the victim's mom and dad, you know, you know, she
was thirty seven when she was killed, when Robin was killed,
she was thirty seven, has a two year old daughter, Nicole,
it for us, is still alive. But you know her
dad is still alive. He's one hundred and one years old,
and he was able to see this get solved after
(39:57):
thirty seven years.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
He didn't after how many of these cases have you
and I covered that were cold and are now solved,
Where we have people say I just wish her mother
was here to see that this had been solved, or
I just wish the dad was still here to see
the solved. My lord, how old is this guy?
Speaker 2 (40:13):
One hundred and one years old and he lived to
see the day he lived to see the day that
this case was solved. And it's because the detective did
not take that for granted. But tell me, what happened
next after this brown stain on a hand towel. At
the time, you're not going to be able to do
that much with it. You can get DNA off of
at which they did. They did pull DNA, they got
(40:34):
a sample, and they ran it through the database. But
Joe in nineteen ninety four, what kind of database do
we have for DNA?
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Shallow at best? Shallow shallow, you know, and back then
it was more of a let's see if you're looking
at the utility of a DNA back then, you're not
necessarily going to go to a database because it was
again shallow. You're doing it more of a true comparison,
(41:05):
like a comparative analysis, right where you're trying to understand
who who the person might be if you get a
suspect that you can compare two as opposed to it
was almost like that's I think that's one of the
reasons that for years and years DNA was referred to
(41:26):
as DNA fingerprinting, because that's the way fingerprinting was used.
You know, you it's kind of the the science of
it is much more complex, but when you think about it,
comparing the two, you know, you think about, well, she is.
You know, it's it's a we have we have the DNA,
(41:47):
but where are we going to compare it to? There's
nothing out there. We don't really have an existent database,
you know, to plug in and you know, you think
about the code of system and forgive me because off
the top of my head, I can't remember when it
was initially established. But it's just because you have a
swimming pool dug in your backyard, it doesn't mean anything
if it doesn't have water in it. And so if
you think about the water with samplings, are the people
(42:09):
that are out there? The pool is very shallow, right,
and now not only is it full, but nowadays when
you think about the utility of IgG with you know,
investigative genetic genealogy, suddenly you know, to continue this metaphor,
you need to expand the parameters of your pool because
(42:30):
now it's washing over the side. Goodness, you know, because
we've now you know, you've unleashed this gulf of data
that's potentially out there that you can kind of you know,
plug into, which is kind of study.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
There was something incredible about this because it doesn't usually
happen like this, but Parabond Nano Labs is a DNA
technology company that actually is in that same geographic area
that this took place. But I actually saw as they
were breaking down, you know this uh the DNA and
they were trying to develop a lead, I mean still
(43:05):
working on it, and they actually were able to put
together what they believe this person would have looked like.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Yeah, it's called phenotyping.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Yeah all right, they did that, and I've seen the
pictures and oh my goodness, it looked like a photo.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
No. Phoenotyping is and you know, it gets phoenotyping gets
lost now, I mean they do it, but it's like
with I G G. That's the rage. You know, it's
I don't know what's what's the term, it's it's cachet.
So you know, with phoenotyping though, if you're if you're
a real nerd, you know kind of like and I'm
(43:44):
proudly count myself in that, in that in that host
of nerds out there, phenotyping is kind of kind of
cool because, uh, you go in and you begin to
pick up on you know, uh, predisposition relative to DNA
traits to pass down and it's not just passed down
from your family, but you know, they isolate. They isolate
(44:06):
these markers along strand that can do things like predict
eye color, skin tone, height, facial structure, you know, hair color,
you know, all of these sorts of things, and they
you know, and for years and years, you know, we're
kind of and listen, all due respect to all of
my friends out there that are composite composite sketch artists,
(44:28):
and they do fantastic work based on what they're told,
based on what they're told. You're right, But when you can,
when you can have phenotyping, you know, it's essentially God's
code if you will, all right, you have access to
this and you can plug this data in and suddenly,
you know, like you said, you were amazed by this.
(44:48):
I've seen several of these things and it just kind
of burst on the scene. Right, It's like, holy smokes.
And when you see the person that's actually compared to,
you know, to the template that was created from the
phenotyping is kind of striking man.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
And they actually the Cold Case detectives that took this over.
They started doing all the work we have seen happen before,
and they ended up in twenty nineteen. They began the
process of trying to find the killer and they were
able to, as I mentioned, Pairavon Nanilabs working with this
(45:28):
and building out the background to figure out the family,
the genetics and everything else that went into it and Joe,
they were actually able to find. And we're talking a
needle in a haystack because the one thing that you
said when you started the show a serial killer with
one victim. And when you have somebody a criminal, you
(45:55):
don't expect them to start off with a homicide that
is this grotesque, this frenzied attack. You would think there
would be other crimes leading up to it, and you
would have a pattern before this happened, and then it
wouldn't stop, it would go on. I don't know how
(46:17):
you go beyond what happened to Robin here, but you
know it's not it's but this ended up being a
needle in a haystack. It was a one off by
a person with no criminal record at all.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Yeah, and you're right, you've you've got this subject and
I'll go ahead and name him. And he was a
soldier at the time, just like oli Robin's husband. This
guy was a soldier. And remember I talked about connectivity,
and I talked about our awareness and being able to
target people and all these sorts of things, and when
(46:53):
you know, when you're and he was posted a place
called Fort Meyer, which is in the Arlington area, you know,
around you know, northern Virginia. Uh. Fort Myer is not
one of these massive bases you know that we have
if you you know, if you look at, uh, some
of these places that we have you know, around the
country where our troopers are a bilted it. He was
(47:19):
living in the barracks at the time. And I've you know,
and I've thought about this, at what point in time
did he cross paths with her? Did she go to
p X, you know, because if you're if you're on
active duty right here, and people that don't know, I'm
just going to tell you it's one of the upsides
of you know, being part of a military family as well,
(47:41):
they deserve it. You know. You can go to p
X and you get a lot better deals on things,
you know, like your groceries. You can get things, you know,
like you can get your gas, well you used to
get you used to get your gas really inexpensively, you know,
on post. It's not necessarily the same as it used
to be. And uh, you know, there's other things that
you have access to that you would not otherwise have
(48:02):
access to. So that community is kind of small. And
I'm really wondering, had this perpetrator, the Stephen Smirk, had
he been pushing a grocery cart in the PX at
some point time, did he look across aisle and his
eyes fell on a robin? Did he look at her
(48:25):
to see that precious little girl, you know, maybe in
the seat of a buggy, that's what we call him
down south, grocery buggies, right pushing along. Did he have
that kind of awareness, you know, to see her, to
watch her, to develop some kind of lust after her.
He left behind his DNA because Dave, and this has
(48:48):
happened in other cases as well, he cleaned up. He
cleaned up at the house. He admits to this because
he's rolled over on this. Now as a matter of fact,
he's been sentenced to seventy years in prison. He's caught.
He was what twenty two years old when this occurred.
(49:10):
He he rolled over on this and confessed to the police.
Now two, there's two things that are said. Initially, it
was said that he was a serial killer and he
killed one He told cops that if it wasn't Now
here's the thing that really makes me angry about this.
(49:30):
Stephen Smart actually makes a comment about his own family.
This guy says that if it hadn't been for my
wife and my children, I would have become a serial killer.
Guess what, Robin and Ollie had a child. She's never
(50:02):
going to see her mama again. This guy had the
option of living an entire life now because he's in
his fifties.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
He's fifty three.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
He has admitted to this, he has been convicted of it,
and he's been sentenced to seventy years in the penitentiary. Now,
if they do what they're say they're going to do
with this guy, and there's no possibility of parole, there's
a chance, there's a chance that he is going to
(50:37):
die in prison. However, there's somebody else serving a princident
sentence not of her own making, and that's Nicole. She's
going to have to bear this burden the rest of
her life because of decisions that this animal made to
(51:03):
rob the world of a mama who loved her kid,
robbed her of a relationship that she would have had
where she could have brought her babies to her mama
to be held and comforted when they cried. I hope
that she has no memory. I hope that she has
(51:23):
no memory of that night. I hope that it's something
that maybe, through the mercy of God, was spared. But
I do know this. He's off the street, and this
is one more thing I'm hoping for. I hope that
they have his DNA, which they obviously do, and I
(51:44):
hope that they stay on the case with this guy,
because anybody that would use the term serial killer, I'm wondering,
just wondering if there are any other cases out there.
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybucks
Body doubts, but Joseph's gotten more. You know, the term
serial killer, it's not something that's been around for a
long long time. As a matter of fact, there's kind
of a famous television show that's based on an equally
famous book written by John Douglas, mind Hunter, and that
(00:26):
book and the television show kind of explore the idea
of the origins of that terminology. And it's kind of interesting.
In one of the episodes, I kind of, you know,
bat this back and forth. You know, what do you
call somebody that commits I don't know, sequential killing. They
(00:47):
landed though, back then in the seventies on this term
serial killer, and many people have tried to define it.
And there's a variety of different types of killers that
are out there. You have mass killers, you have spree killers.
And look, if we sat here long enough, we could
probably make up a few of our own. I'm certainly
(01:11):
positive that some academic somewhere is trying to construct some
new narrative that will place their name in the pantheon
of quote unquote researchers into this type of behavior. But never,
at any point in time in my career or in
(01:34):
my time covering cases Have I ever heard of a
serial killer that was responsible for just one death? Coin
of an oddity, isn't it. Today on Body Bags, we're
going to talk about a case from over thirty five
(01:56):
years ago, a case that involves a beautiful mama who
died left behind a two year old daughter, and a
guy that turns out to be the perpetrator that says
he was in fact a serial killer but only killed once.
(02:19):
Coming to you from the beautiful campus of Jacksonville State University,
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks. I love
the word confounding, Dave. I don't have an opportunity to
use it a lot, but I got to tell you
(02:41):
when I began to kind of read the story of
Robin Lawrence and this journey that her case because she
can no longer take a journey. She's been dead now
since nineteen ninety four, but this journey of her case
kind of taken place. Of the things that was rather
confounding is that a person that is now associated with
(03:05):
her death claims that they are were a serial killer,
but they've only killed one person. A bit of a
head scratcher, right, I mean, that's where you know it
really trum confounding comes in here.
Speaker 2 (03:20):
I started looking at it when you send it to
me because I thought this is remarkable. I mean another story,
another case, and I mean this in the nicest way.
And we apologize a lot for being flippant about some
of the ways we sometimes refer to cases being fascinating
or incredible or whatever. In this particular case, I think
(03:40):
about a two year old girl who grew up without
her mother. On November eighteenth, nineteen ninety four, a thirty
seven year old mother married was murdered in her home.
She was murdered rob and Lawrence was in a violent
(04:03):
and vicious way that she was stabbed forty nine times
and was not discovered for two days. Her husband was
overseas at the time, and he was trying to get
her on the phone, and he couldn't reach her, and
so he finally calls the next door neighbor and says, hey,
(04:24):
would you go check on Robin. I can't get her
on the phone, And so the neighbor goes over there
on November twentieth, nineteen ninety four, at noon twelve thirty,
and she gets to the back door and sees that
the screen has been ripped out and she opens it.
I can picture her calling out Robin, and little two
(04:47):
year old girl with a way loaded down diaper comes
to the door and greets her, and she says, well,
where's your mommy, where's your mommy? And she sees the
blood and she starts going through the house and finds
thirty seven year old Robin Lawrence dad. She immediately backs
(05:09):
out of the house, grabs the child, and goes to
a neighbor's and calls. Because she doesn't know how long
she doesn't know is the killer still in the house.
I mean, you wouldn't know. I mean, if you see
something like that for the first time, you don't know.
But that's what we're talking about today because that case,
from that moment on November twentieth, nineteen ninety four, until
(05:29):
recently was an unsolved murder. Nobody knew. And I think
about that two year old girl, yep, not knowing her
mother really other than what her friends and family told
her about her mom. Yeah, I've got children in that
age group. You have a son in that age group.
I mean, we've got kids in this that we can
(05:50):
identify with. And there were no answers for that.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
Daughter, none whatsoever can you imagine and you know, I
think probably this is kind of embroidered with another level
of fear. Can you imagine going through life and you
know that your mama has been subjected to this level
of brutality and violence and maybe just maybe every night
(06:16):
when you close your eyes because you were actually there
when it happened. You don't have a memory of it,
but you were actually there when it happened. And I'm wondering,
you know, are you thinking that some horror awaits you
just around the corner, because that person could pop back
into your life at any moment time because they're never caught.
(06:39):
You know, this case actually reminds me, and you're going
to know exactly what I'm talking about here that you
think about this particular case. I'm going to mention going
back to twenty eighteen. I'm sorry, sixteen. I'm thinking about
(07:01):
the Pokedon Masker, you know, which you and I covered extensively,
and I've been on well a couple of things. I've
been on KT Studios. Big shout out to our friends
at KAT on their podcast The Piketon Masker. I think
we did three seasons of it, and you know, I
was also on the documentary on Oxygen that involved a
(07:25):
small child. I don't know if you remember this, when
the the ant came to the door at the home
of one of the victims and knocked on the door,
and a small child answered the door. And the child
(07:49):
looked at the grown woman standing at the door, and
the grown woman said, where's where's mommy and daddy because
she had gone to a previous house and they didn't
get an answer at the door. And the child looked
into the eyes of this adult and said, mommy and
(08:12):
daddy are playing zombie. And you know they there was
also a baby in the house there too, that had
been you know, lying in the blood, you know, in
between the two parents in the bed that had been executed,
shot multiple times, and both that child that was to
(08:36):
a certain degree was able to communicate as best they could.
I escapes me right now precisely the age of that baby,
but you know in their sibling who was you know,
a baby baby was removed from the home, and you know,
you think back to it, I don't. I don't remember
things from when I was two or three years old.
(08:57):
I think the earliest remembrance is I might have might
be when I'm four maybe, but this is something that's
going to hang on you for the rest of your life, Dave,
I mean forever and ever. This is going to be
with you because you're going to be associated with that.
You're going to be identified with that any kind of
Just imagine if there's any family members that are around,
(09:22):
every time they see you. They might not say it
to your face, but every time they see you, you're
going to be associated with that event. They might look
on you with pity. They might say, Wow, they were
very blessed or lucky, or how you want to frame it,
that they weren't you know that this child wasn't killed
as well, he or she is surviving all this time,
(09:43):
and what a legacy, man.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
Joan, there's even more. Nicole the little two year old
when the neighbor, her name is Lori Lindbergh, Lori Lindbergh,
came and found Nicole the baby and she calls nine
one one, but she russia is Nicole to the hospital
because she didn't know. She knew she had been there
and had experienced something, but didn't know exactly what. She
(10:08):
knows that she's wearing a diaper that hasn't been changed.
In a long time. The child hasn't eaten or drank.
She was dehydrated, and they did take care of that.
But you know, the thing about Nicole is her Nicole
was very fragile. She had had a liver transplant right
after she was born, so she didn't have was not
(10:28):
in the best of health on a daily basis. And
this two year old went without any kind of help
for two days and so there was some serious concern there.
And thankfully the neighbor knew that and got her that,
you know, she got her to help right away. Or
we could be looking at multiple deaths here.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
Well not only multiple deaths. But mind you, Dave, this
goes back to my old assertation about I always say
the poem. I'm not going to do the same thing here,
but the old poem about you know, for the want
of a name, she was lost and one of shoe
a horse was lost, message and so forth, so on.
If that child, just folks listening to me, if that
(11:09):
child had died as a result of this brother, that's
that's a double homicide there, you know, because that child's
death or that child's life, let's put it this way,
is directly dependent their life. Their existence is directly dependent
upon survival of the parent. The fact that that child survived,
(11:32):
particularly being in such fragile health. My lord, a liver
transplant in and of itself. And look, child's two years old, Dave,
you're not that far down range from this event that
has taken place. The child is still fragile, all right,
and probably was fragile, and just from a physical standpoint,
(11:53):
not to mention what has occurred in the wake, you know,
the absence of this loving mother, you know that.
Speaker 2 (11:58):
Took care for Medicaid. When you get a transplant, you
have to take immuno suppressors. Is that what they're called.
Speaker 1 (12:05):
Well, yeah, there's a whole battery of things that you
have to take just to make sure first off that
the transplant is going to be viable and then to
get your system back on the line. This is a
very It's the the event itself is so invasive, and
we are, you know, in a position. Uh. You know,
(12:27):
our liver literally, you know, it controls so many aspects
to our survivability. Uh, it's a rather resilient organ. But
the fact that you know, this liver was compromised, uh,
to the point where they felt the need that she
would you know, she required a transplant, such fragile health.
(12:48):
And also there there are circumstances down the road, you know,
throughout life. These children, anybody that has gone through a
liver or any kind of organ transplant, they have to
be monitor very, very carefully. This is not something like
you're going to run down to the dock in the box,
you know, the GP, you know where they're going to say, hey,
how are you doing, you know that sort of thing. No,
(13:10):
you're going to have to go to a clinic. You're
gonna have to go to a hepatic specialist that can
follow you and continue to pull labs and do all
this stuff and just kind of, you know, watch you
as you develop. And who does that? Who does that? Well,
it's Mama, always Mama, It always is. You know, dad's
dad is there. Dad provides, but Mama's caretaker. Mama's a lover,
(13:35):
you know, in the family. She's the one that makes
everybody feel secure, wraps your arms around. She's once you
go to you know, when you cry and you need
you need care and compassion and all those sorts of things.
She's also the one to make sure you make it
the doctor's point of right, because I can tell you,
as an old hand at being a daddy, I can't
remember that stuff. It's something that I was always working.
(13:56):
It's not something. Don't ask me to remember an appointment
I can't remember. I can't remember. You know, I've got
a graduate assistance, like I have to ask her all
the time. I was like, what am I teaching on today?
You know? So don't ask a dad to do it.
It's a mom that does it. And the fact that
this precious little angel was robbed bye, and I'll go
(14:20):
ahead and say it by an agent of Satan himself
that showed up in that house that night and drove
that knife into this mother's body over and over and
over again, and allowed that two year old to remain
(14:40):
in that house, not knowing what would become of her.
This is the definition of pure evil. Forty nine times day.
(15:05):
Forty nine times. You know, there's there's overkill, then there's overkill.
You know, you start to get you start to get above.
I think personally, you start to get above, you start
to get into double digit numbers, you're overkill at that
(15:25):
point in time. But forty nine times that this blade
was driven into this mother's body and then there are
no answers, and I can tell you the scene you know,
you mentioned, and we've talked about on bodybacks. We you know,
use the term finder, and they're an interesting group of people.
They really are. You know, when it comes down to
(15:46):
those those individuals, it's not cops. It's not cops. It's
certainly not me. It's civilians that are just minding their
own business, going through life, doing their thing. The population
of people. If there could be a study, and I
maybe there is a study out there, and any of
my academic friends that are listening, I urge, I urge
(16:08):
you to explore the segment of the population those individuals
that are the finders of dead bodies. Can you imagine
going into that house and you know, observing that horror?
You know, because I was just lecturing yesterday to my
(16:28):
intro forensics class and we're doing a roology DNA section
right now here in fall semester at jack State, and
I'm into the DNA, you know, kind of introducing the
students to this, but I start off with soerroology, which
is the study of blood, and that's where most DNA scientists,
you know, they come from a background of zerology, and
I was talking about you know, generally blood is considered
(16:51):
to be the most recognizable, I think, to the general public,
the most recognizable type of evidence that we think about
death investigation. And to be there in that environment, looking
at this trail of blood that winds up leading back,
leading back to this mother's remains, I think one of
(17:14):
the things. And this is rather gruesome, but I'm going
to go ahead and say it, because you know, we
have to talk about these things. I'm wondering if this
how many times this child went back and forth to
mama's remains, because the child knows where mama, Mama sleeps,
(17:34):
the child is And there's nothing more precious in the world,
is there that when you have a baby. And I
miss those days, I really do. I'm not saying I
miss the tears, but I miss I miss those little
arms reaching up to me, wanting me to comfort them. Okay,
and how much more so would a mother. But that
(17:55):
child wandering through that house with that dirty diaper, going
back to her remains every single time, the body getting
colder and colder, that blood getting tackier and tackier. To
really kind of lace this up, I'm wondering where their
(18:15):
bloody little footprints on the surface of that floor where
their contact, Traces of blood on the wall where the
child had touched mom smears, you know, down at child
level on the wall, the child crying, aimlessly, wanting to
be comfort, dirty diaper, nothing to drink, you know, there's
(18:37):
no bottle for the child, there's no water in a
sippy cup, there's no animal crackers, there's nothing. There's just silence,
silence in this house. It's you begin and many times
for us that go out on scenes like this, you
start to think about the only thing you can think about,
(18:59):
really become obsessed with it, is I want to hold
somebody responsible. I want to do everything that I can.
And you try not to treat cases differently day, but
when you walk into a horror show like this and
you see these things, it all of a sudden really
intensifies your ability to focus. I think there are cases,
(19:21):
and I'll admit to it, there are cases out there
that as a practitioner I was more focused on because
I don't know if it's that little flame of anger
that stirs up in your soul or whatever it is,
It's like I want to make sure somebody's hell responsible
for this so evidence in this case. I think, and
I'm sure that many of the investigators back then during
(19:43):
this period of time, back in ninety four, they wanted
to put somebody's feet to the fire in this but
the fact that this thing was cold for so long,
everything that they did back in ninety four turns on
what happened eventually in the future with this case.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
You know, Joe, you mentioned foot prints from two year old.
You know what they did find. The detective on the
scene that day that took all the photos and you know,
went into us again, not it was an active scene,
but there was an activity going on. You know, you
had the body of the deceased, and what they did
(20:27):
find they found tissues. They found little tissues around the
body that had blood on them. And the detective believes
that little Nicole, at two years old, she knew what
blood was because you know, moms used tissues and band
aids to clean up blood. And the detective things based
(20:47):
on where they found these tissues and how many they
saw that that little baby was trying to stop the blood.
But even more than that, you know, we mentioned that
you know, she was dehydrated, you know, she had no food,
no nothing, okay, But one thing they did find all
around Robin's body by empty baby bottles, and because of
(21:11):
where they were placed, the detective thinks that two year
old Nicole was trying to get food for her mother,
you know, trying to wake her up. That she was
trying to tend to the injuries and trying to get
her to that was all she could think to do,
you know. And I'm thinking, that's a two year old
that is just a superhero to do that. And that's what,
(21:33):
you know, was amazing about this incredible scene here. But
look the injuries. The detective says that he believes that
Robin was attacked in her bed and that she fought
her way out of that bed, that she fought hard.
(21:54):
He went on and said that there were a number
of things that stood out. The phone court had been cut,
and this is somebody who came in to do the
devil's work. You mentioned that at the very beginning, and
so cut the phone cord and then let the killing begin.
Apparently because forty nine wounds from a knife, Joe, that's
(22:22):
going to be I know that they mentioned one of
the cuts on the neck was a gaping wound. If
you're in a frenzied type of attack, and I'm sure
you've seen these. What does somebody look like when they've
gone through a fight. You know how exhausting it is
just to throw punches in a fight. If you've ever
been in a real fight that was emotional, and I
(22:45):
mean you're worn out after two minutes. For somebody to
be stabbed that many times, to put up that kind
of fight, I just cannot imagine what the detectives walked
into and what that two year old wanted to be.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
It would have been on the part of the perpetrator.
It would have been incredibly exhausting. The only thing I
could really think about. You know, when anytime I think
about a frenzied killing like this, I don't think about
somebody that is necessarily out of their mind in the
sense that they're having a psychotic break. I'm thinking about
(23:23):
somebody that is stimulated by something. Now, you can be
stimulated by multiple things, Okay, obviously, you know you can
take on some kind of substance, perhaps a mind altering substance.
But I think something that hardens you to the point
where you're pushed beyond your limits. I'm thinking coke meth
(23:44):
Those sorts of things. I'm not looking at this and
thinking heroin addict, all right, something that's going to kind
of drive you down. I'm thinking about somebody. And there's
also another way that you can be stimulated, and that's
a frenzied sex attack, and that's you know, it's you know,
it's the ultimate stimulant to a certain degree, particularly if
(24:06):
somebody is fixated on a victim. And I find it
interesting the fact that the trouble that would have that
an individual would have had to have gone to in
order to do something like cutting a phone line, that
goes to something you and I talk about, right, we
talk about premeditation and planning, I think, and again, knowing
(24:31):
that you know that you're not dealing with somebody that
is in a classic sense that are you know, has
lost their marbles, if you will, that are completely disoriented
to time and space and all those sorts of things.
You're thinking about somebody that's being I hate to use
this term, but they're thoughtful about it, but not thoughtful
(24:52):
in a compassionate way. They're thinking about it. They've worked
this out in their brain. You know, how can I
achieve this? And my end game is I'm not just
doing this to take her life. I'm doing this probably
from the perspective that I'm sexually motivated by it. Something
is attractive to this individual about the victim. And you know,
(25:19):
and also here's something else that's real. Key, who would
in fact have knowledge that she's a single mama, that
she's all alone because you had mentioned that this mama
was absent her husband, that daddy's gone, he's deployed, he's
(25:42):
deployed overseas right now. So who's going to have that
inside knowledge? Right who's going to be aware that she's
going to be there all by herself. Here's one other thing.
Sometimes I think that single mothers in particular, I don't
mean I'm not disrespecting their marriage. And when I say single,
I'm just saying a mother alone with a child. Some
(26:06):
people will say, I think that, you know, woe be
into the person that crosses a mother that has a child.
She's trying to defend them. However, I think that women
with children become a more vulnerable target because women with
children might be so inclined to give into the request
(26:28):
of some sadistic animal that shows up on their doorstep.
As long as you don't hurt my baby. And I
think that some of these predators understand that they kind
of plug into that and want to try to utilize
that as leverage to get what they want. But in
this case, you know, you've got a subject that's here
(26:48):
that's going to try to you know, not just fulfill
some kind of sick fantasy, but they're going to be
there to try to rip her to threads. What does
that say about the subject? You know this is doing
this because you know, yeah, one of the things that
we look for in a case like this from a
forensic standpoint is, first off, we want to understand the
weapon that is used. We want to understand is this
(27:09):
a weapon that is foreign to this domicile. It's not
part of the kitchen, like the kitchen array like with
the knife, Yeah, and we want to know that, and
does it marry up with anything else that might be
in the household. Well, if they show up with a
knife again, Dave preparation right, and then what areas of
(27:32):
the body are are insulted at this point? Is this
somebody that is doing disfigurement? You know, because that shows
for many they'll say that that shows some kind of
personal issue with a person. I've had folks that have
had knives inserted into eyes. I've had people that have
(27:53):
had you know, much like if you've ever you know,
you remember the Heath Ledger Heath Ledger Batman movie where
his cheeks, you know, the actor's cheeks have been cut
on both sides. I've had that happen. I've had lips
that have been removed, foreheads cut. I've had ears part
(28:14):
I've never had ears totally removed, but I've had ears
sliced off or partially sliced off. And then you got
these other other things that occur to where they're actually
attacking the sexual Uh, those those areas of the body
that are identified with sexuality, like with women, the breast,
I've had partial, partial, I don't know how to say it,
(28:39):
a visceration, if you will, of the female sexual organs
where the uterus is positive partially removed. I've had things
inserted into into victims, the buttocks attacked. There was one
case I was just talking about the other day where
a guy tortured a lady in a bathtub, and I
was showing these Crimescene images to my class where the
buttocks was attacked and she had been drowned homicide, drowned
(29:00):
in a bathtub. And the interesting thing about it, Dave,
is that she was her buttocks was stabbed multiple times.
And guess what those injuries on the buttocks were apps
in any kind of hemorrhage. That was all done postmortem.
And so yeah, you look at this, and the people
(29:21):
that do profiling and everything when we, you know, assess
these injuries, we you know, they'll take that data from
these assessments and they'll say, oh, okay, well this begins
to fit some kind of pattern, you know, some kind
of template that they have set out, you know when
we talk about serial perpetrators and sexually motivated things like that,
and they'll look for these little points of identification along
(29:43):
along the way. In Robin Lawrence's case, I'm fascinated by
the specific area of the injuries. You know, we're talking
about a gaping neck wound that we know of where
and generally when you gaping neck wound, yes, that can
be facilitated with a stab wound, but most of the
(30:05):
time gaping. Anytime you hear gaping associated with sharp force injury,
those are most often associated with incized wounds like slices
as opposed to stabs. Now, you can have stabs, and
this is really horrific, but you can have stabs where
they keep the knife in place and they will work
the knife back and forth in the wound. Okay, and
(30:27):
that does happen. But when you get a gaping event
and you have a slice, I don't, And forgive me,
I don't know if I've talked about this before. I
think I probably have, but it bears mentioning again. You'll
get these really irregular, nasty wounds when surgeons, for instance,
are doing surgery. Okay, did you know that our bodies
(30:51):
have contour lines? Our bodies do? They have contour lines?
And these are called lines of Langer. And so if anyone,
particularly old school people that have ever had have ever
had an appendix removed, there's the incision they do with laparoscopically. Now.
But the incision is called a McBurnie incision. If you
(31:12):
look at it, it runs, it kind of runs contrary
to where the appendix is positioned. You think, well, that's
kind of an odd scar house position because I know
anatomically where the appendix is the reason they make the
incision that way is that they're actually following the lines
of Langer. Look, don't believe me, Go and look this up.
(31:33):
You can do Google search. You'll see exactly what I'm
talking about. Just put in lines of Langer human body
and you'll see these contour lines. So most surgeries that
physicians do, you know, with surgical tools, you know, scalpels
and those sorts of things, they will follow the lines
of Langer. If they don't follow the lines of Langer,
you get these real grotesque injuries because you're literally going
(31:55):
against the grain of the body, so it pulls apart.
That's why when people have these disfiguring injuries and they
survived them. You know, if you're blunt force impact where
you get these nasty lacerations, the skin separates in an
odd way, it doesn't follow the contour line, or somebody
has been sliced against the lines of Langer. Again, these
(32:18):
these injuries are wide and gaping and really nasty looking.
They're very hard to close for emergency room positions, by
the way, or surgeons that have to attend to them.
So people don't think about that, you know, they don't.
A lot of people will say, well, they were just
cut to pieces, and you can go out and you
can see injuries on individuals that are sliced up at
(32:42):
a scene, and it just so happens that the perpetrator
kind of fell within the parameters of the lines of
Langer and the injuries will not look as grotesque. But
you can have somebody that is stabbed or cut maybe
one or two times, and it will be one of
the nastiest injuries you've ever seen because it goes completely
against the grain of the body. So you think about
this and with forty nine, trust me, you're not going
(33:06):
to be following the contours of the body. These things
are going to be grotesque. They're talking about this gaping
injury on the neck. It would not surprise me. But
here's the thing. Here's the thing. When you're involved in
this type of violence, I can almost guarantee, just like
old le Cart said many years ago, you are going
(33:31):
to leave a trace behind. My contention is is, if
you're going to perpetrate this kind of homicide that was
(33:55):
perpetrated on Robin, you got to know something about her.
I've gotten to a point in my life now where
I do not believe in coincidences. I no longer believe
that you know most of the time. I do not
believe that there are going to be some dark, unseen
forces that are going to appear out of nothing on
(34:17):
your doorstep. Most of the time, in most of these cases,
there's going to be some I don't know, for lack
of a better term, some knowing going on, if you
know what I mean, Dave.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
I thought it was fascinating this crime taking place in
nineteen ninety four. And if you remember back to that year,
that's the year of the Nicole Simpson Ron Goldman murders.
Speaker 1 (34:47):
Yes, it was always you know what, I always get
confused about that. I get confused for some reason because
it seems like so many stuff happened back then. Always
get confused about the date of that double homicide, in
the date of the trial, right, because both of them
were like a big deal, you know, so I get
the two things conflated, I think. So anyway, I'm sorry,
(35:09):
I didn't even interrupt you. No, No, it was.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
June ninety four, and you know, there was a lot
of blood unseen. And as the year went on and
they talked about evidence and things like that, it became
something you know, that was talked about. And as they
were talking about the trial, the upcoming trial of the century.
You know that blood evidence would play a big part,
and they've brought in I remember them bringing in these
(35:33):
DNA experts early on, and it was in the news.
And so as this crime takes place and they've got
forty nine wounds, knife wounds, and they're looking for evidence
they can use, I have to imagine that the detectives
on the scene had to be thinking along those lines
(35:53):
that we've got this. It was still very early on,
very early on in what we now learn of DNA,
but they did have it. It was in the news.
People did know about it, and I think they were
probably I'm hoping, schooling themselves as they were going and
looking for any piece of evidence. And in this case,
a detective is looking in the bathroom and something catches
(36:19):
his attention. A towel, O bath towel, and it's on
the rod that goes to the shower, you know. And
this is the difference between the detective and everybody else.
And I think of you as a detective, Joe, because
of how you have to work scenes as well. You
(36:40):
guys don't take anything for granted. It's like everything there
could lead to solving this case. And this detective saw
it appeared to be a washcloth with a little stain
on it, a small brownish stain that if you're looking
for a big red block of blood, that's not what
(37:01):
it looks like. It does tend to look different than
what one would expect. And that small brownish stain on
that washcloth was not discarded.
Speaker 1 (37:14):
No, hang on, let me tell you one more thing,
because we're doing with time here right, Think about if
you've ever seen okay, just imagine this, have you ever
seen like just in your own household? I certainly have
where I don't know for dudes, I guess it's one
you cut yourself shaving right, and when you cut yourself shaving,
(37:38):
you focus on the cut right, and maybe you get
a piece of tissue paper you put on your face
which you don't follow up on or remember is that
now blood has fallen away from your body and it's
landed on some kind of surface or perhaps just like
in this case, you've grabbed a cloth or you've grabbed
a tissue and you've placed it there and you pull
(37:59):
it away and you drop it into trash. Can dave
that blood is not going to appear two days later
like it did when it initially happened, and you're right,
it is brown. I've talked. That's why I always tell
my kids, the students. I was like, you never call
something blood. You can say, maybe it appears like it
(38:20):
might be blood, but I don't know, because Dave, I've
been fooled. I've actually seen melted chocolate, it seems, and
I thought that it was blood and it wasn't blood.
It was melted chocolate. And that does, in fact happen.
I've actually had. The worst are rust stains rust. If
you pay attention, there's certain shades of rust. There's certain
(38:40):
shades of rust out there. When you see it, you
have to do a double take because you're thinking, wait,
is that blood? You know? Now you need to sample it.
You need to have the technician come and take a
sample of it, because again, you don't know. You don't
know until it passes through the rigor of testing. All right,
But the fact that and I love the fact that
(39:01):
you brought it up about this detective again all these
years ago, nineteen ninety four. Brother, he spotted it.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
Didn't he and he grabbed it. And that's why that's
the reason we actually are talking about this case today.
Is because that detective did his job and then some
everybody involved in this case. From what I've been ever
since you gave it to me, it kind of caught
me in such a way because it's such a remarkable
thing to me on multiple levels. But a cold case
(39:31):
that get solved, and you know, in this particular case,
the victim's mom and dad, you know, you know, she
was thirty seven when she was killed, when Robin was killed,
she was thirty seven, has a two year old daughter, Nicole,
it for us, is still alive. But you know her
dad is still alive. He's one hundred and one years old,
and he was able to see this get solved after
(39:57):
thirty seven years.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
He didn't after how many of these cases have you
and I covered that were cold and are now solved,
Where we have people say I just wish her mother
was here to see that this had been solved, or
I just wish the dad was still here to see
the solved. My lord, how old is this guy?
Speaker 2 (40:13):
One hundred and one years old and he lived to
see the day he lived to see the day that
this case was solved. And it's because the detective did
not take that for granted. But tell me, what happened
next after this brown stain on a hand towel. At
the time, you're not going to be able to do
that much with it. You can get DNA off of
at which they did. They did pull DNA, they got
(40:34):
a sample, and they ran it through the database. But
Joe in nineteen ninety four, what kind of database do
we have for DNA?
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Shallow at best? Shallow shallow, you know, and back then
it was more of a let's see if you're looking
at the utility of a DNA back then, you're not
necessarily going to go to a database because it was
again shallow. You're doing it more of a true comparison,
(41:05):
like a comparative analysis, right where you're trying to understand
who who the person might be if you get a
suspect that you can compare two as opposed to it
was almost like that's I think that's one of the
reasons that for years and years DNA was referred to
(41:26):
as DNA fingerprinting, because that's the way fingerprinting was used.
You know, you it's kind of the the science of
it is much more complex, but when you think about it,
comparing the two, you know, you think about, well, she is.
You know, it's it's a we have we have the DNA,
(41:47):
but where are we going to compare it to? There's
nothing out there. We don't really have an existent database,
you know, to plug in and you know, you think
about the code of system and forgive me because off
the top of my head, I can't remember when it
was initially established. But it's just because you have a
swimming pool dug in your backyard, it doesn't mean anything
if it doesn't have water in it. And so if
you think about the water with samplings, are the people
(42:09):
that are out there? The pool is very shallow, right,
and now not only is it full, but nowadays when
you think about the utility of IgG with you know,
investigative genetic genealogy, suddenly you know, to continue this metaphor,
you need to expand the parameters of your pool because
(42:30):
now it's washing over the side. Goodness, you know, because
we've now you know, you've unleashed this gulf of data
that's potentially out there that you can kind of you know,
plug into, which is kind of study.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
There was something incredible about this because it doesn't usually
happen like this, but Parabond Nano Labs is a DNA
technology company that actually is in that same geographic area
that this took place. But I actually saw as they
were breaking down, you know this uh the DNA and
they were trying to develop a lead, I mean still
(43:05):
working on it, and they actually were able to put
together what they believe this person would have looked like.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Yeah, it's called phenotyping.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Yeah all right, they did that, and I've seen the
pictures and oh my goodness, it looked like a photo.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
No. Phoenotyping is and you know, it gets phoenotyping gets
lost now, I mean they do it, but it's like
with I G G. That's the rage. You know, it's
I don't know what's what's the term, it's it's cachet.
So you know, with phoenotyping though, if you're if you're
a real nerd, you know kind of like and I'm
(43:44):
proudly count myself in that, in that in that host
of nerds out there, phenotyping is kind of kind of
cool because, uh, you go in and you begin to
pick up on you know, uh, predisposition relative to DNA
traits to pass down and it's not just passed down
from your family, but you know, they isolate. They isolate
(44:06):
these markers along strand that can do things like predict
eye color, skin tone, height, facial structure, you know, hair color,
you know, all of these sorts of things, and they
you know, and for years and years, you know, we're
kind of and listen, all due respect to all of
my friends out there that are composite composite sketch artists,
(44:28):
and they do fantastic work based on what they're told,
based on what they're told. You're right, But when you can,
when you can have phenotyping, you know, it's essentially God's
code if you will, all right, you have access to
this and you can plug this data in and suddenly,
you know, like you said, you were amazed by this.
(44:48):
I've seen several of these things and it just kind
of burst on the scene. Right, It's like, holy smokes.
And when you see the person that's actually compared to,
you know, to the template that was created from the
phenotyping is kind of striking man.
Speaker 2 (45:06):
And they actually the Cold Case detectives that took this over.
They started doing all the work we have seen happen before,
and they ended up in twenty nineteen. They began the
process of trying to find the killer and they were
able to, as I mentioned, Pairavon Nanilabs working with this
(45:28):
and building out the background to figure out the family,
the genetics and everything else that went into it and Joe,
they were actually able to find. And we're talking a
needle in a haystack because the one thing that you
said when you started the show a serial killer with
one victim. And when you have somebody a criminal, you
(45:55):
don't expect them to start off with a homicide that
is this grotesque, this frenzied attack. You would think there
would be other crimes leading up to it, and you
would have a pattern before this happened, and then it
wouldn't stop, it would go on. I don't know how
(46:17):
you go beyond what happened to Robin here, but you
know it's not it's but this ended up being a
needle in a haystack. It was a one off by
a person with no criminal record at all.
Speaker 1 (46:30):
Yeah, and you're right, you've you've got this subject and
I'll go ahead and name him. And he was a
soldier at the time, just like oli Robin's husband. This
guy was a soldier. And remember I talked about connectivity,
and I talked about our awareness and being able to
target people and all these sorts of things, and when
(46:53):
you know, when you're and he was posted a place
called Fort Meyer, which is in the Arlington area, you know,
around you know, northern Virginia. Uh. Fort Myer is not
one of these massive bases you know that we have
if you you know, if you look at, uh, some
of these places that we have you know, around the
country where our troopers are a bilted it. He was
(47:19):
living in the barracks at the time. And I've you know,
and I've thought about this, at what point in time
did he cross paths with her? Did she go to
p X, you know, because if you're if you're on
active duty right here, and people that don't know, I'm
just going to tell you it's one of the upsides
of you know, being part of a military family as well,
(47:41):
they deserve it. You know. You can go to p
X and you get a lot better deals on things,
you know, like your groceries. You can get things, you know,
like you can get your gas, well you used to
get you used to get your gas really inexpensively, you know,
on post. It's not necessarily the same as it used
to be. And uh, you know, there's other things that
you have access to that you would not otherwise have
(48:02):
access to. So that community is kind of small. And
I'm really wondering, had this perpetrator, the Stephen Smirk, had
he been pushing a grocery cart in the PX at
some point time, did he look across aisle and his
eyes fell on a robin? Did he look at her
(48:25):
to see that precious little girl, you know, maybe in
the seat of a buggy, that's what we call him
down south, grocery buggies, right pushing along. Did he have
that kind of awareness, you know, to see her, to
watch her, to develop some kind of lust after her.
He left behind his DNA because Dave, and this has
(48:48):
happened in other cases as well, he cleaned up. He
cleaned up at the house. He admits to this because
he's rolled over on this. Now as a matter of fact,
he's been sentenced to seventy years in prison. He's caught.
He was what twenty two years old when this occurred.
(49:10):
He he rolled over on this and confessed to the police.
Now two, there's two things that are said. Initially, it
was said that he was a serial killer and he
killed one He told cops that if it wasn't Now
here's the thing that really makes me angry about this.
(49:30):
Stephen Smart actually makes a comment about his own family.
This guy says that if it hadn't been for my
wife and my children, I would have become a serial killer.
Guess what, Robin and Ollie had a child. She's never
(50:02):
going to see her mama again. This guy had the
option of living an entire life now because he's in
his fifties.
Speaker 2 (50:10):
He's fifty three.
Speaker 1 (50:12):
He has admitted to this, he has been convicted of it,
and he's been sentenced to seventy years in the penitentiary. Now,
if they do what they're say they're going to do
with this guy, and there's no possibility of parole, there's
a chance, there's a chance that he is going to
(50:37):
die in prison. However, there's somebody else serving a princident
sentence not of her own making, and that's Nicole. She's
going to have to bear this burden the rest of
her life because of decisions that this animal made to
(51:03):
rob the world of a mama who loved her kid,
robbed her of a relationship that she would have had
where she could have brought her babies to her mama
to be held and comforted when they cried. I hope
that she has no memory. I hope that she has
(51:23):
no memory of that night. I hope that it's something
that maybe, through the mercy of God, was spared. But
I do know this. He's off the street, and this
is one more thing I'm hoping for. I hope that
they have his DNA, which they obviously do, and I
(51:44):
hope that they stay on the case with this guy,
because anybody that would use the term serial killer, I'm wondering,
just wondering if there are any other cases out there.
I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybucks
Host
Joseph Scott Morgan
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