March 8, 2023 • 33 mins
Leo shares a message for listeners of Bone Valley about the impact of the podcast on his life, and his hopes for freedom.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is a pre paid call from an inmate at
a Florida Department of Corrections institution. To accept this call,
press zero to refuse this call, Hang up or press.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Thank you for using Global Telling.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Hi, Leo, how are you.
Speaker 4 (00:17):
I'm doing well, Gilbert, how are you.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm going to add Kelsey to the call, so just
hang on a second. Hey, Hey, I'm merging the calls. Okay,
I think we're set. It's been about four months since
the release of Bone Valley's final episode.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
But I shouldn't say final because this story is far
from over.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
The book I'm supposed to be writing, well, I just
keep putting it off instead. I'm still working on this case.
I'm constantly in touch with Leo's defense team, which now
officially includes the former judge Scott Cupp. I'm speaking with
journalists and podcast hosts, as well as lawyers and listeners
who ask me how they can help support Leo. I've
(01:06):
even been corresponding with Jeremy Scott, who is still in
solitary confinement and still eager to share more of his
story with me.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
But more on that another time.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Because this episode is about Leo. Leo calls me a
few times a week. For months now, he's been sharing
stories about how his life has changed since the release
of Bone Valley. He still hasn't been able to listen
to the show in full, but he's heard bits and
pieces here and there. Chrissy and other members of his
family have played parts of episodes for him over the phone,
(01:39):
and he's seen partial transcripts of episodes. But for the
most part, Leo's understanding of Bone Valley has been through
the interactions he's had with corrections officers and prison contractors,
the family members of other inmates who approach him in
the visitation park, and the many, many letters he's received
from listeners. And he wants to share some of these
(02:01):
stories and what it's meant to him with you.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
You know, when this when this story was first being
put together, and when the podcast first aired, and everything
I think you even had had told me you were
trying to prepare me for the the response that I
would get. And it was really strange because the first
couple of months after the podcast was was was put out,
I didn't I didn't get a single email from anybody,
(02:29):
and so I thought, well, you know, maybe I'm too old,
Maybe you know it's not that interesting to talk to me,
and and and just all of a sudden, I don't
I don't think it was like an episode. The final
episode came out was it was nine, and I think
the ninth one really set people off. And then all
of a sudden, I was getting emails every single day,
(02:53):
thirty forty emails a day from all not just in
the United States, but from Canada, Australia, from Argentina, from Ireland,
got a lot from Ireland, got a lot from the UK.
And these people were just responding to this stuff. And
I was not.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Prepared for that at all.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
I mean, and you know, I'm the kind of guy
that you you I'm pretty sentimental, you know. I don't
know if I should say that publicly, because you've got
to be a tough guy in here, right, But I'm
not really that tough and have a big heart, big
soft heart. And when people write to me and they
say I love you, I respond, I love you too.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
What's your name? You know?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
And it's just really really really crazy, and just it's
it's very very exciting for me. I can't even explain
how encouraging it is to have people believe in me
after all these years and to know the truth finally,
and to respond with the kind of love that has
been really lacking in my life and in the life
(03:54):
of my wife, my daughter for so many years. You know,
we've been doing this thing until you came along, pretty
much on our own. And I have this kind of
love and support from so many different parts of the world.
This was absolutely overwhelming, and I can't say enough so
how grateful I am for that. It's hard to respond
(04:17):
to everybody, but if you send a note or something
with it, I will respond to that, no matter how smaller,
whatever it is. I try to respond to all of
them to say thank you at least.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Leo's ability to respond to all of these messages is
complicated by the new communication system recently put in place
by the Department of Corrections. Inmates don't receive physical copies
of their mail anymore. Instead, letters pass through a processing
center in Tampa, where they're opened, digitally, scanned, and delivered
through tablets that the prison provides. That means Leo doesn't
(04:52):
have the chance to hold the physical, handwritten letters from
his loved ones and new supporters, and Leo's digital inbox
only holds two hundred letters at a time anything beyond
the two hundred most recent items is deleted, and Leo
doesn't want to miss.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Any Saying thank you seems to be such an understatement.
I mean, you just cannot imagine how life changing this
whole thing has been for me personally. But I'd also
like to say this, because I've actually thought about this,
if I could connect with them in any kind of
real way, I want them to know how much I
(05:30):
connect with them as they connect to me. At the
point where we're all ordinary people, and I would imagine that,
you know, all of us have something that we deal
with on a daily basis. You know, mine has been
this prison experience, and there are many things. I got
a friend right now, it's in the NICEU. He's dealing with,
(05:50):
you know, a health issue and his family, and we're
all dealing with things. And I really want them to
see me as an ordinary person, you know, just like
thes And the reason why that's so important is because
if they can see me as an ordinary person, then
they may be able to see the God that I
believe in as being extraordinary. Because at the center of
(06:12):
this story for me is God I serve. And I
give them all the credit for making this whole thing
come about bringing all these people together. And that's a
very important message for me, and it will be the
center of my message leaving out of here if in
one night I get the opportunity to go home. I
(06:33):
really do appreciate this love and support that I've received
from them and continue to receive from them, and it
has absolutely changed my life and has given me such
great strength to continue with this fight.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Leo has also failed to shift in his interactions, not
just with people on the outside, but also within the
prison walls.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Listen, officers, their job is not to be our friends,
know and for the most part, most of these very
professional they they they you know, there's a demarcated line
between you know, inmates and staff, and that's the nature
of prison, and you know, and some of them are
are overally not friendly, so they make sure that line
(07:20):
is very demarcated.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
And you know, I don't have any issues with that.
I'm not here to make friends either.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
But there was one in particular, and he has always
been straight, narrow, and you know, very hard, and he
had he had heard the podcast and he had approached
me and said he was listening to it, and his
whole demeanor, his whole attitude of how he looked at me,
how he treated me, was totally different than what it
(07:49):
was prior to that. I mean, I have yet to
hear anybody that's been opposed to me, or you know,
even neutral, if they if they listened to the part
cast that come away, you know, very convinced and angry
that the system is what it is. There's an officer
walked by me yesterday and I guess he's new to
the podcast. He said, Hey, I've been listening to that
(08:12):
podcast about you. And I said really, because you know,
I don't really know him really well. But I said
what you think and he said, I think you didn't
do it. He just kept going yeah, and uh.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
You know, you get a lot of things like.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
That, you know, the sentiment is pretty strong. I think
one of the most moving ones for me was it's
always the moms to get me right. But there was
this one in particular.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
She didn't know me.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
She asked her son if she could meet me or
say something to me.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
You know, she's never spoken to you before, so she
just came up.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
I was holding my youngest grandson, who is you know,
a serious chick magnet. You know, he's a real cute
little boy, and I figured she was coming up to
see him because they all do, and and she was
coming up with a smile on her face. And when
she got up to me, she didn't say anything immediately. Know,
it's kind of an awkward moment. She would just pause
like she couldn't say and I could see she was
(09:04):
trying to.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
Gather her thoughts.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
She put her on hand on my shoulder and then
she said, I'm gonna cry. And then I realized she
was there to see me. And I gave my grandson
to him to his mother, and I said, come here,
and I gave her a big hug and she just
tugged me and she said, I love you, And it
just choked me up as well. And she said I
listened to the podcast, and I said, well, thank you
(09:28):
for taking the time doing that. She said, I hope,
I so hope this ends well for you now.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Of course I thanked her, and that.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Was just one but the response from anybody who's listened
to it been incredible.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
But there's another part of this experience that's new to LEO.
News about Bone Valley has spread throughout the prison population,
and for the first time, everyone who he's incarcerated with
seems to know what he's in for.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
It's a little bit of challenge me too, by the way,
because if you can imagine, we don't live our lives
and here telling each other why we're here, I mean,
it wouldn't work out really well for some of these
guys who you know, made some incredible bad decisions in
their in their lives and affective lives of others. So
we don't walk around telling each other about our cases,
(10:21):
and so it's a little bit unnerving. But when they
hear the whole sort of one, they hear everything. What
happens is they can put in a lot of hopes
in my success because their hope is is that you know,
when I leave here, I will speak on their behalf
for people who are in similar situations. And there are
(10:41):
some there is a lot of good people in here.
A lot of these guys are just men who've made
bad mistakes and would never do it again. Now they're
paying for it with their lives. You know, I live
here with broken men. They're already broken.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
We're all broken.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
And what we learn is that that's not that's it's
not a condition that's exclusive to prisoners. These people come
from the free world. We came in here broken. I'm
not an advocate for criminality, but i am an advocate
for redemption, for forgiveness, for restoration, and that being for
(11:18):
the victims as well. And so you know, it's a
very naughty situation. But you know, I'm carrying a great
burden for these guys, so it's not just about me
with them too.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
Hi, I'm Jason Flamm, CEO and founder of Lava for
Good podcasts, Home to Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War
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(12:02):
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Speaker 2 (12:14):
Bone Valley is sponsored by Stand Together. Stand Together is
a philanthropic community that partners with America's boldest change makers
to tackle the root causes of our country's biggest problems,
including the failed war on drugs that has criminalized addiction,
fueled over incarceration, and shattered communities.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
At eleven years old.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Scott Strode drank his first beer. At fifteen, Scott went
to a mental health facility because of suicidal thoughts, where
he tried cocaine. Like many others who experience addiction, Scott
was using drugs and alcohol to numb the pain he
was trying to numb childhood trauma. In his early twenties,
Scott was invited into a boxing gym by a friend.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
That's where he.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Discos, however, the healing power of sport and community that
helped propel him towards sobriety. In two thousand and six,
Scott founded The Phoenix, a free, sober active community that
uses the transformative power of sport to help people treat
and heal from addiction and imagine new possibilities for their
lives through fitness. The program restores compassion to a system
(13:23):
that has long relied on locking people up to solve
the addiction crisis. Scott Strode is one of many entrepreneurs
partnering with Stand Together to drive solutions in education, healthcare, poverty.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
And criminal justice.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
To learn more, about addiction and the War on Drugs.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Listen to the War.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
On Drugs podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get
your podcasts. As the days, weeks, and months pass, there
are certain dates that reopen unhealed wounds. February twenty fourth
(14:03):
was the anniversary of Michelle's death, thirty six years since
she was killed. This anniversary is always a difficult day
for Leo. I'm just wondering what gets you through these
dark times?
Speaker 3 (14:18):
You know, is it faith? Is it music? What is
it that holds you together?
Speaker 1 (14:22):
You know, that's a really really good question, and it's
a very important answer. The very simple answer is that
my faith in the God that has got me this
far is what gets me through each and.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
Every one of those days.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
And it's not just the February twenty fourth day. It's
her birthday on the summer eight and our wedding day.
But February's is the worst because of what it represents.
And this time it was somehow more difficult. I was
in a very saddened state.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
It was really tough.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
On the day of the anniversary, Leo has sent a
picture of Michelle's grave. The headstone was a ridge inscribed
with her married name Michelle Schofield, but after Leo was
convicted of her murder, the stone was replaced with one
bearing her maiden name, Michelle Salm.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
My sister had found a picture somewhere and sent it
to me, and I noticed that my name was taken
off of the headstrong by her dad. I totally understand
his sentiment and his feeling, but I didn't deserve that
dishonor I don't want to, you know, art him in
any kind of way. It's just it adds to the
to the feeling of sadness that I had on that day.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
These anniversaries are just part of the stress that Leo
is dealing with. On top of the pressures of his
life in prison. He was having trouble sleeping, and all
of the stress seemed to catch up with him.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
A few days before we spoke.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
I was at work, was working with my boss and
pushing a tool card and I really didn't have any wanning.
Apparently my blood pressure was high and somehow my heart
got out a rhythm and.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
When I felt it.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Come on, you know, it caused me to hitch my breathing,
and so I asked my boss to give me a minute.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
I put my head down.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I was trying to catch my breath and I couldn't
get that rhythm right, and I ended up falling on
the ground, apparently. And the only thing that I remember
about being on the ground, because I was laying there
and looking up, I had like tunnel vision, and I
had this sound like it was a jet plane in
(16:34):
my ears. I was laying there and I could see
the sky and I couldn't really see anything around me
except the sky in front of me, and it was
just a position I was in. It was the clear
sky and clouds, and it was very, very sublime for
me because I was seeing a fast expanse without looking
(16:56):
through a fence or a raisor fire or bars or
steel doors or you know, you take that from Brandon,
because you know, we're always looking horizontally here, right, and
you look up a lot, and so having that.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
View was very surreal for me.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
It was it was very comforting.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Leo told me that as he was lying there looking
up at the blue sky and white clouds, there was
a brief moment when he didn't know where he was.
He didn't know if he was dead or alive, imprisoned
or free, And.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Wow, that was pretty great for me, and that's the
only thing I remember about being on the Brown.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Have you been able to listen to that final episode?
Speaker 4 (17:58):
Now?
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Unfortunately I don't get too. I mean, I've heard some
of it over the phone with Christy Sharonck with me,
and I've heard thoughts of it, and you know, I
know some of the things that it was about.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
We told Leo some of what we learned from our
interview with Jeremy Scott, just bits and pieces. It's hard
for Leo to hear these details, but through family, Leo
was able to hear some more. And there was one
part that really stuck with him, Jeremy's insistence that he
told the prosecutor John Aguero all the way back in
(18:31):
two thousand and five that he was responsible for Michelle's murder.
This was a full decade before Jeremy confessed over the
phone to Leo's defense attorney.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
That is one segment of it that I actually did
get to hear that they had played for me over
the phone. And I'm going to tell you my initial
reaction at that moment, because I didn't know that until then.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
I was very angry.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I was very.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
Angry because it became obvious to me that.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
My life, my wife's life, my wife today, Chrissy Ashley,
my family, Michelle, her family, none of that.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Mattered to that man.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
And had he done the right thing at that point,
I'd have been willing to stand there and shake his
hand and say, you know, we move on from this.
Just just do the right thing, because anybody can make
a mistake. And I've never been vindictive about that. I've
never been bitter about it. I'm still not bitter about it.
But at that moment, I was extremely angry because he
(19:41):
didn't do the right thing. He covered it up, and
I went years longer trying to fight this case and
lost at these appeals, and so it was very It
was very devastating for me. And ironically enough, I was
more angry with John Girl than I was with Jeremy.
I think Jeremy was was more just at that point
(20:04):
than he was than Guirrel was. I've since, by the
way I've had I've had to let that go to
John Guerrero is dead. If I can just say this
really quick about mister gurrel Uh. He was always like
a nemesis for me for a little while. I think
I probably was for him as well.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Leo told me about one time decades ago at a
post conviction hearing when he spotted John Aguero in the courtroom.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
And mister Gurrel stood up and shook my lawyer's hand
and read it him. He looked at me and he
asked me how I was doing, and he was as
sincereous you could be as asking that. I mean, he
was cordial to me, and I think I think for
me the years after that, he became somebody I really
wanted to prove this case too. You know, it wasn't
(20:53):
somebody I hated. I've never hated John Guirrew.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
I believe that.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
We need UH prosecutors. Unfortunately, we need the judiciary, we
need the DC.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
We need these.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Systems in place to protect people and to hold the
other this accountable who commit violence crime. But for me,
mister Guirrel represented somebody I wanted to prove this case
or I really wanted to prove this case, and I felt
like someday it would happen and we would both be
all right with it. And then when I heard he
died in Morocco, that was that was kind of sad
(21:26):
for me because part of the goal is not going
to be able to be fulfilled. But you know, now
I have Victoria Avalon and Brian Haas, and you know
I want to prove to them too, but they don't
have the history with me that I had with mister Guirrel.
And so for me, it's never been about bitterness and
never been about hatred and proving somebody wrong. It was
(21:49):
just about proving me innocent, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Leo's legal team is still debating strategies to legally prove
Leo's innocence, but in the meantime, Leo has another opportunity
for parole. We'll go into that process in more depth
in another follow up episode once we have more details,
but for now, what we do know is that on
March fifteenth, Leo will receive a visit from an investigator
(22:30):
with the Florida Commission on a fender review. This person
will show up at Hardy CI and spend some time
talking to Leo about his record and his hopes for parole.
The Commission will then promptly set a date for Leo's hearing.
Leo won't be able to attend that hearing, but his
attorneys will make their case for his parole, and once
(22:51):
again the panel of three commissioners will publicly make their.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Decision, and.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
You know, hopefully that we'll have people there to support
and we'll make our case.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
You get very very.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Little time to make your case, and historically the pro
Commission has not been very favorable to me.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
They could decide to grant him parole so that he
can eventually be home with his family, but then again,
he's never apologized for the crime he was convicted of,
which the state is pointed to as the reason that
Leo shouldn't be paroled.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
I don't know how you can expect someone to apologize
for something that they did not do. And that's just
a fact that I have to deal with because pro
Commission does you know, I don't think they require it.
I think they expect it, and you know, and I
guess at some level they should. I try to understand
their perspective of it. The thing is, though, is that
(23:50):
who qualifies that? I mean, why is it that somebody
can go up before them and say I'm really sorry
and somehow that makes them more amicable to making a
decision to parole them than someone who has stood on
his innocence for the entire time from the trial, all
the way through thirty five years, I gained nothing by
(24:13):
standing on a claim of innocence unless I actually possess it.
Because most of the inmates that I have that talk
to me today, because they come from the point of
view of being guilty, and they jump at a chance
to get out of prison. They think it's because of
my pride that I won't just say I'm sorry for
(24:34):
the pro you know, just say it. What do you care?
What do they you know? What does it matter? Just
say you're sorry and proll out. Well, you know, I
understand their perspective, I really do. But I'm not guilty.
And it's not just about me. It's about my wife,
and she deserves better justice than this. I know that
(24:55):
that's not a sentiment that's felt across the board and
the people who have opposed me case, but it is
an actual fact. She deserves better than this. She deserves justice.
She deserves to have the truth come out. She doesn't
deserve to have her husband falsely accused, convicted and thrown
away and the real killer go free. She doesn't deserve that.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
She was worthy of real justice.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
And I have to stand on that. And you know
this is not this is not you know, saying I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
For stealing a candy bar. I didn't steal.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
This is this is standing up for what's right. And
I simply cannot live with myself labeled as a murderer.
I just cannot do it.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
I'm not going to do it.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
So, you know, and you would think that after all
this time, you know, I've had the opportunity to take
deals to go home. I could have taken a deal
before a trial even started that would have sent me
home thirty two years ago, Gilbert thirty two years ago.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Leo's talking about how, just before he went to trial
in nineteen eighty nine, the state offered him the opportunity
to plead guilty to a lesser charge of second degree murder.
If Leo had taken the deal, there would have been
no trial and no threat of the death penalty.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
Think about that. So, despite what John A.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Guirrell tells the jury about you know, how vicious I
am and all of other stuff, they were willing to
let me go thirty two years ago without telling the
jury a single word.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
And that's a fact of the case. It's public record.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Can you just talk about that briefly, Leo, and what
that would have meant to you in terms of sentencing.
Speaker 4 (26:34):
Okay, well what.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
That would have meant at that time I was under
a guideline sentence, and it would have been a twelve
to seventeen year guideline sentence, And that sounds like a
lot of time, but it's really not because they they
wouldn't have been able to give me more than twelve years,
because they wouldn't have had any reason to aggravate. I
have no prior felonies, and on twelve years, I got
(26:55):
a third off automatically, so that's four off of that.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
That leaves eight.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
I got day to day the jail time, that's two
hundred and sixty two days. It's almost another year, so
now you're down into seven and then I'm getting twenty
days a month gain time to this day. That doesn't
apply to a life sentence, so you're cutting it more
than in half. So I would not have done more
than three and a half years on the twelve but
taking a deal of a second degree, and instead of
(27:20):
taking that, I faced the death penalty because that's what
I was facing. Now here's something else in Nates will
tell you there's nobody and here, nobody in here that
knows that they were caught guilty in trial facing the
death penalty, that would not take three and a half years,
and try to beat the death penalty on a case
(27:41):
like this. No one would have done that, no one,
no one in their right mind. And you could call
me a lot of things back then. You can call
me a lot of things now, but you cannot call
me stupid, not stupid. I had told my attorney, and
I don't care if they offer me five minutes probation
and they say that I can do it on the
way to the airport to go back from Massachusetts, I
am not taking to any deals, and I was scared
(28:05):
to death. I didn't say.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
That with courage of being brave. I said it out.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Of simple fact that I cannot.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
There's no choice in this for me.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Still, I could understand if Leo felt pressure to apologize,
to feign remorse so that he'd be granted parole. But
for Leo this has never been an option. To apologize
for killing his wife would mean he'd be lying, and
that would eliminate the possibility of real justice for Michelle,
(28:37):
and that he would never do, not in nineteen eighty
seven and not today, not even for the chance to
be released tomorrow.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
You know.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
It's this dangling parrot that's before me always, and I
want it.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
I want it really bad.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
I want to go home. I want to take care
of my wife and kid. I want to I want
to take care of my life. I want to go
out there and be able to live a little bit,
you know, and make my mistakes and do my good
deeds and all that stuff.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
And I want that really bad.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
But I don't want it enough that I'm going to
sacrifice who I am as a person, in the integrity
that I have. And it's not because I'm a saint,
it's not because I'm some great guy. It's simply because
I did not do it. That's it. There's no other
reason behind refusing to do those things. I don't want
(29:30):
to make the Commission angry with me. I don't want
to fight against Bryan Haws or Jerry Hill or Victoria Avon.
I don't want to drag them through any you know,
mud puddles. I have nothing to do with that. I
don't want anything to do with that. I just cannot
take the deal. I did not commit the crime.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I've seen you preach in your sermons and I've seen
you talk about hope, and I'm just wondering, do you
have hope right now for this next parole hearing?
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Yeah, I do.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
I have great hope.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
The narrative of my life has been changed, and Michelle's
truth is now very widely known across the world, and
knowing that they finally know the truth is everything to
me because that has to be ninety percent of what
my mission has always been for thirty five years. Ninety
percent of my fight has been about getting justice for her.
(30:26):
Really doesn't matter who in the state acknowledges that or not.
People are acknowledging it, and that's justice for Michelle.
Speaker 4 (30:35):
Now.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Now I can rest with that now. The other ten
percent was hoping that I could somehow get myself back
home to take care of the family that I'm in
love with now, and you know, I'm still hopeful for
that to happen. But the main part of this goal
that I have is complete. People know in the past
I haven't had that. So yeah, I do have a.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Lot of hope.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
And I don't know what the Commission knows.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
I really don't. I don't know them.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
I know, like I understand all that Victoria Avalon knows
she's been part of this case, and so she knows
my claim and she knows who I am. And you know,
I'm not sure what she thinks about it, And even
more cloudy is what the Commission thinks about But they're
all human beings, and so this is a chance for
all of them, all of them to come out. We
(31:24):
can all come out of this in a really good place.
We can all come out of this ahead, and it
will never come back in their face. Victoria Avalon would
never be embarrassed for coming away saying this wasn't right.
It'll never come back to her because I.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
I keep saying that. It's just a fact. I'm not
after money, I'm not after fame. I don't need an
apology for me. I'm not asking for any of that.
All I'm asking for is justice with Michelle and my freedom.
And so, yeah, I have a lot of hope because
now the story has been told, and it's been told
in a very very big way, and it's been told
(32:01):
very comprehensively. So I have a lot of hope because
I think I think these people who will supporting me
now are not going to take no for an answer.
On this, and if the answer becomes no, I think
a lot of people are going to want to know why.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
If Leo's denied parole in this his fourth attempt, so
many of you will want to know why. There's a
level of scrutiny now that the state cannot escape. I
don't know if there's really a way to make things
right at this point. In a few months, in June,
it'll be thirty five years since Leo's known a day
(32:42):
of freedom. Many of those years were spent in hopeless isolation,
with Leo pleading for someone, anyone to listen and believe
that he's an innocent man. Now there are people all
around the world who have heard his story and believe
in his innocence, people who are waiting and watching to
(33:03):
see what happens next, and that is what gives him hope.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
And please make sure to thank all those supporters because
that means a lot. I really I'm appreciative of the
opportunity to tell them thank you personally, because that's everything
to me. They totally have changed my life. I cannot
say enough. And hopefully we come to a good end
in the story, and what a celebration that will be,
(33:30):
you know, it's time.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
I mean, it just is. It's just time.
This is a pre paid call from an inmate at
a Florida Department of Corrections institution. To accept this call,
press zero to refuse this call, Hang up or press.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Thank you for using Global Telling.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
Hi, Leo, how are you.
Speaker 4 (00:17):
I'm doing well, Gilbert, how are you.
Speaker 2 (00:19):
I'm going to add Kelsey to the call, so just
hang on a second. Hey, Hey, I'm merging the calls. Okay,
I think we're set. It's been about four months since
the release of Bone Valley's final episode.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
But I shouldn't say final because this story is far
from over.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
The book I'm supposed to be writing, well, I just
keep putting it off instead. I'm still working on this case.
I'm constantly in touch with Leo's defense team, which now
officially includes the former judge Scott Cupp. I'm speaking with
journalists and podcast hosts, as well as lawyers and listeners
who ask me how they can help support Leo. I've
(01:06):
even been corresponding with Jeremy Scott, who is still in
solitary confinement and still eager to share more of his
story with me.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
But more on that another time.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Because this episode is about Leo. Leo calls me a
few times a week. For months now, he's been sharing
stories about how his life has changed since the release
of Bone Valley. He still hasn't been able to listen
to the show in full, but he's heard bits and
pieces here and there. Chrissy and other members of his
family have played parts of episodes for him over the phone,
(01:39):
and he's seen partial transcripts of episodes. But for the
most part, Leo's understanding of Bone Valley has been through
the interactions he's had with corrections officers and prison contractors,
the family members of other inmates who approach him in
the visitation park, and the many, many letters he's received
from listeners. And he wants to share some of these
(02:01):
stories and what it's meant to him with you.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
You know, when this when this story was first being
put together, and when the podcast first aired, and everything
I think you even had had told me you were
trying to prepare me for the the response that I
would get. And it was really strange because the first
couple of months after the podcast was was was put out,
I didn't I didn't get a single email from anybody,
(02:29):
and so I thought, well, you know, maybe I'm too old,
Maybe you know it's not that interesting to talk to me,
and and and just all of a sudden, I don't
I don't think it was like an episode. The final
episode came out was it was nine, and I think
the ninth one really set people off. And then all
of a sudden, I was getting emails every single day,
(02:53):
thirty forty emails a day from all not just in
the United States, but from Canada, Australia, from Argentina, from Ireland,
got a lot from Ireland, got a lot from the UK.
And these people were just responding to this stuff. And
I was not.
Speaker 4 (03:09):
Prepared for that at all.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
I mean, and you know, I'm the kind of guy
that you you I'm pretty sentimental, you know. I don't
know if I should say that publicly, because you've got
to be a tough guy in here, right, But I'm
not really that tough and have a big heart, big
soft heart. And when people write to me and they
say I love you, I respond, I love you too.
Speaker 4 (03:31):
What's your name? You know?
Speaker 1 (03:32):
And it's just really really really crazy, and just it's
it's very very exciting for me. I can't even explain
how encouraging it is to have people believe in me
after all these years and to know the truth finally,
and to respond with the kind of love that has
been really lacking in my life and in the life
(03:54):
of my wife, my daughter for so many years. You know,
we've been doing this thing until you came along, pretty
much on our own. And I have this kind of
love and support from so many different parts of the world.
This was absolutely overwhelming, and I can't say enough so
how grateful I am for that. It's hard to respond
(04:17):
to everybody, but if you send a note or something
with it, I will respond to that, no matter how smaller,
whatever it is. I try to respond to all of
them to say thank you at least.
Speaker 2 (04:29):
Leo's ability to respond to all of these messages is
complicated by the new communication system recently put in place
by the Department of Corrections. Inmates don't receive physical copies
of their mail anymore. Instead, letters pass through a processing
center in Tampa, where they're opened, digitally, scanned, and delivered
through tablets that the prison provides. That means Leo doesn't
(04:52):
have the chance to hold the physical, handwritten letters from
his loved ones and new supporters, and Leo's digital inbox
only holds two hundred letters at a time anything beyond
the two hundred most recent items is deleted, and Leo
doesn't want to miss.
Speaker 1 (05:07):
Any Saying thank you seems to be such an understatement.
I mean, you just cannot imagine how life changing this
whole thing has been for me personally. But I'd also
like to say this, because I've actually thought about this,
if I could connect with them in any kind of
real way, I want them to know how much I
(05:30):
connect with them as they connect to me. At the
point where we're all ordinary people, and I would imagine that,
you know, all of us have something that we deal
with on a daily basis. You know, mine has been
this prison experience, and there are many things. I got
a friend right now, it's in the NICEU. He's dealing with,
(05:50):
you know, a health issue and his family, and we're
all dealing with things. And I really want them to
see me as an ordinary person, you know, just like
thes And the reason why that's so important is because
if they can see me as an ordinary person, then
they may be able to see the God that I
believe in as being extraordinary. Because at the center of
(06:12):
this story for me is God I serve. And I
give them all the credit for making this whole thing
come about bringing all these people together. And that's a
very important message for me, and it will be the
center of my message leaving out of here if in
one night I get the opportunity to go home. I
(06:33):
really do appreciate this love and support that I've received
from them and continue to receive from them, and it
has absolutely changed my life and has given me such
great strength to continue with this fight.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
Leo has also failed to shift in his interactions, not
just with people on the outside, but also within the
prison walls.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
Listen, officers, their job is not to be our friends,
know and for the most part, most of these very
professional they they they you know, there's a demarcated line
between you know, inmates and staff, and that's the nature
of prison, and you know, and some of them are
are overally not friendly, so they make sure that line
(07:20):
is very demarcated.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
And you know, I don't have any issues with that.
I'm not here to make friends either.
Speaker 1 (07:26):
But there was one in particular, and he has always
been straight, narrow, and you know, very hard, and he
had he had heard the podcast and he had approached
me and said he was listening to it, and his
whole demeanor, his whole attitude of how he looked at me,
how he treated me, was totally different than what it
(07:49):
was prior to that. I mean, I have yet to
hear anybody that's been opposed to me, or you know,
even neutral, if they if they listened to the part
cast that come away, you know, very convinced and angry
that the system is what it is. There's an officer
walked by me yesterday and I guess he's new to
the podcast. He said, Hey, I've been listening to that
(08:12):
podcast about you. And I said really, because you know,
I don't really know him really well. But I said
what you think and he said, I think you didn't
do it. He just kept going yeah, and uh.
Speaker 4 (08:23):
You know, you get a lot of things like.
Speaker 1 (08:25):
That, you know, the sentiment is pretty strong. I think
one of the most moving ones for me was it's
always the moms to get me right. But there was
this one in particular.
Speaker 4 (08:35):
She didn't know me.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
She asked her son if she could meet me or
say something to me.
Speaker 4 (08:40):
You know, she's never spoken to you before, so she
just came up.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
I was holding my youngest grandson, who is you know,
a serious chick magnet. You know, he's a real cute
little boy, and I figured she was coming up to
see him because they all do, and and she was
coming up with a smile on her face. And when
she got up to me, she didn't say anything immediately. Know,
it's kind of an awkward moment. She would just pause
like she couldn't say and I could see she was
(09:04):
trying to.
Speaker 4 (09:05):
Gather her thoughts.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
She put her on hand on my shoulder and then
she said, I'm gonna cry. And then I realized she
was there to see me. And I gave my grandson
to him to his mother, and I said, come here,
and I gave her a big hug and she just
tugged me and she said, I love you, And it
just choked me up as well. And she said I
listened to the podcast, and I said, well, thank you
(09:28):
for taking the time doing that. She said, I hope,
I so hope this ends well for you now.
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Of course I thanked her, and that.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
Was just one but the response from anybody who's listened
to it been incredible.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
But there's another part of this experience that's new to LEO.
News about Bone Valley has spread throughout the prison population,
and for the first time, everyone who he's incarcerated with
seems to know what he's in for.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
It's a little bit of challenge me too, by the way,
because if you can imagine, we don't live our lives
and here telling each other why we're here, I mean,
it wouldn't work out really well for some of these
guys who you know, made some incredible bad decisions in
their in their lives and affective lives of others. So
we don't walk around telling each other about our cases,
(10:21):
and so it's a little bit unnerving. But when they
hear the whole sort of one, they hear everything. What
happens is they can put in a lot of hopes
in my success because their hope is is that you know,
when I leave here, I will speak on their behalf
for people who are in similar situations. And there are
(10:41):
some there is a lot of good people in here.
A lot of these guys are just men who've made
bad mistakes and would never do it again. Now they're
paying for it with their lives. You know, I live
here with broken men. They're already broken.
Speaker 4 (10:56):
We're all broken.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
And what we learn is that that's not that's it's
not a condition that's exclusive to prisoners. These people come
from the free world. We came in here broken. I'm
not an advocate for criminality, but i am an advocate
for redemption, for forgiveness, for restoration, and that being for
(11:18):
the victims as well. And so you know, it's a
very naughty situation. But you know, I'm carrying a great
burden for these guys, so it's not just about me
with them too.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
Hi, I'm Jason Flamm, CEO and founder of Lava for
Good podcasts, Home to Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War
on Drugs, and many other great podcasts. Today we're asking you,
our listeners, to take part in the survey. Your feedback
is going to help inform how we make podcasts in
the future. Your complete and candid answers will help us
continue to bring you more insightful and inspiring stories about
(12:02):
important topics that impact us all. So please go to
lavafrogod dot com slash survey and participate today. Thank you
for your support.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
Bone Valley is sponsored by Stand Together. Stand Together is
a philanthropic community that partners with America's boldest change makers
to tackle the root causes of our country's biggest problems,
including the failed war on drugs that has criminalized addiction,
fueled over incarceration, and shattered communities.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
At eleven years old.
Speaker 2 (12:36):
Scott Strode drank his first beer. At fifteen, Scott went
to a mental health facility because of suicidal thoughts, where
he tried cocaine. Like many others who experience addiction, Scott
was using drugs and alcohol to numb the pain he
was trying to numb childhood trauma. In his early twenties,
Scott was invited into a boxing gym by a friend.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
That's where he.
Speaker 2 (12:59):
Discos, however, the healing power of sport and community that
helped propel him towards sobriety. In two thousand and six,
Scott founded The Phoenix, a free, sober active community that
uses the transformative power of sport to help people treat
and heal from addiction and imagine new possibilities for their
lives through fitness. The program restores compassion to a system
(13:23):
that has long relied on locking people up to solve
the addiction crisis. Scott Strode is one of many entrepreneurs
partnering with Stand Together to drive solutions in education, healthcare, poverty.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
And criminal justice.
Speaker 2 (13:39):
To learn more, about addiction and the War on Drugs.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
Listen to the War.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
On Drugs podcast on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get
your podcasts. As the days, weeks, and months pass, there
are certain dates that reopen unhealed wounds. February twenty fourth
(14:03):
was the anniversary of Michelle's death, thirty six years since
she was killed. This anniversary is always a difficult day
for Leo. I'm just wondering what gets you through these
dark times?
Speaker 3 (14:18):
You know, is it faith? Is it music? What is
it that holds you together?
Speaker 1 (14:22):
You know, that's a really really good question, and it's
a very important answer. The very simple answer is that
my faith in the God that has got me this
far is what gets me through each and.
Speaker 4 (14:32):
Every one of those days.
Speaker 1 (14:33):
And it's not just the February twenty fourth day. It's
her birthday on the summer eight and our wedding day.
But February's is the worst because of what it represents.
And this time it was somehow more difficult. I was
in a very saddened state.
Speaker 4 (14:51):
It was really tough.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
On the day of the anniversary, Leo has sent a
picture of Michelle's grave. The headstone was a ridge inscribed
with her married name Michelle Schofield, but after Leo was
convicted of her murder, the stone was replaced with one
bearing her maiden name, Michelle Salm.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
My sister had found a picture somewhere and sent it
to me, and I noticed that my name was taken
off of the headstrong by her dad. I totally understand
his sentiment and his feeling, but I didn't deserve that
dishonor I don't want to, you know, art him in
any kind of way. It's just it adds to the
to the feeling of sadness that I had on that day.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
These anniversaries are just part of the stress that Leo
is dealing with. On top of the pressures of his
life in prison. He was having trouble sleeping, and all
of the stress seemed to catch up with him.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
A few days before we spoke.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
I was at work, was working with my boss and
pushing a tool card and I really didn't have any wanning.
Apparently my blood pressure was high and somehow my heart
got out a rhythm and.
Speaker 4 (16:04):
When I felt it.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
Come on, you know, it caused me to hitch my breathing,
and so I asked my boss to give me a minute.
Speaker 4 (16:11):
I put my head down.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
I was trying to catch my breath and I couldn't
get that rhythm right, and I ended up falling on
the ground, apparently. And the only thing that I remember
about being on the ground, because I was laying there
and looking up, I had like tunnel vision, and I
had this sound like it was a jet plane in
(16:34):
my ears. I was laying there and I could see
the sky and I couldn't really see anything around me
except the sky in front of me, and it was
just a position I was in. It was the clear
sky and clouds, and it was very, very sublime for
me because I was seeing a fast expanse without looking
(16:56):
through a fence or a raisor fire or bars or
steel doors or you know, you take that from Brandon,
because you know, we're always looking horizontally here, right, and
you look up a lot, and so having that.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
View was very surreal for me.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
It was it was very comforting.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Leo told me that as he was lying there looking
up at the blue sky and white clouds, there was
a brief moment when he didn't know where he was.
He didn't know if he was dead or alive, imprisoned
or free, And.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Wow, that was pretty great for me, and that's the
only thing I remember about being on the Brown.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Have you been able to listen to that final episode?
Speaker 4 (17:58):
Now?
Speaker 1 (17:58):
Unfortunately I don't get too. I mean, I've heard some
of it over the phone with Christy Sharonck with me,
and I've heard thoughts of it, and you know, I
know some of the things that it was about.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
We told Leo some of what we learned from our
interview with Jeremy Scott, just bits and pieces. It's hard
for Leo to hear these details, but through family, Leo
was able to hear some more. And there was one
part that really stuck with him, Jeremy's insistence that he
told the prosecutor John Aguero all the way back in
(18:31):
two thousand and five that he was responsible for Michelle's murder.
This was a full decade before Jeremy confessed over the
phone to Leo's defense attorney.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
That is one segment of it that I actually did
get to hear that they had played for me over
the phone. And I'm going to tell you my initial
reaction at that moment, because I didn't know that until then.
Speaker 4 (18:58):
I was very angry.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
I was very.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
Angry because it became obvious to me that.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
My life, my wife's life, my wife today, Chrissy Ashley,
my family, Michelle, her family, none of that.
Speaker 4 (19:18):
Mattered to that man.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
And had he done the right thing at that point,
I'd have been willing to stand there and shake his
hand and say, you know, we move on from this.
Just just do the right thing, because anybody can make
a mistake. And I've never been vindictive about that. I've
never been bitter about it. I'm still not bitter about it.
But at that moment, I was extremely angry because he
(19:41):
didn't do the right thing. He covered it up, and
I went years longer trying to fight this case and
lost at these appeals, and so it was very It
was very devastating for me. And ironically enough, I was
more angry with John Girl than I was with Jeremy.
I think Jeremy was was more just at that point
(20:04):
than he was than Guirrel was. I've since, by the
way I've had I've had to let that go to
John Guerrero is dead. If I can just say this
really quick about mister gurrel Uh. He was always like
a nemesis for me for a little while. I think
I probably was for him as well.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Leo told me about one time decades ago at a
post conviction hearing when he spotted John Aguero in the courtroom.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
And mister Gurrel stood up and shook my lawyer's hand
and read it him. He looked at me and he
asked me how I was doing, and he was as
sincereous you could be as asking that. I mean, he
was cordial to me, and I think I think for
me the years after that, he became somebody I really
wanted to prove this case too. You know, it wasn't
(20:53):
somebody I hated. I've never hated John Guirrew.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
I believe that.
Speaker 1 (20:57):
We need UH prosecutors. Unfortunately, we need the judiciary, we
need the DC.
Speaker 4 (21:03):
We need these.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Systems in place to protect people and to hold the
other this accountable who commit violence crime. But for me,
mister Guirrel represented somebody I wanted to prove this case
or I really wanted to prove this case, and I felt
like someday it would happen and we would both be
all right with it. And then when I heard he
died in Morocco, that was that was kind of sad
(21:26):
for me because part of the goal is not going
to be able to be fulfilled. But you know, now
I have Victoria Avalon and Brian Haas, and you know
I want to prove to them too, but they don't
have the history with me that I had with mister Guirrel.
And so for me, it's never been about bitterness and
never been about hatred and proving somebody wrong. It was
(21:49):
just about proving me innocent, if that makes any sense.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Leo's legal team is still debating strategies to legally prove
Leo's innocence, but in the meantime, Leo has another opportunity
for parole. We'll go into that process in more depth
in another follow up episode once we have more details,
but for now, what we do know is that on
March fifteenth, Leo will receive a visit from an investigator
(22:30):
with the Florida Commission on a fender review. This person
will show up at Hardy CI and spend some time
talking to Leo about his record and his hopes for parole.
The Commission will then promptly set a date for Leo's hearing.
Leo won't be able to attend that hearing, but his
attorneys will make their case for his parole, and once
(22:51):
again the panel of three commissioners will publicly make their.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
Decision, and.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
You know, hopefully that we'll have people there to support
and we'll make our case.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
You get very very.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Little time to make your case, and historically the pro
Commission has not been very favorable to me.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
They could decide to grant him parole so that he
can eventually be home with his family, but then again,
he's never apologized for the crime he was convicted of,
which the state is pointed to as the reason that
Leo shouldn't be paroled.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
I don't know how you can expect someone to apologize
for something that they did not do. And that's just
a fact that I have to deal with because pro
Commission does you know, I don't think they require it.
I think they expect it, and you know, and I
guess at some level they should. I try to understand
their perspective of it. The thing is, though, is that
(23:50):
who qualifies that? I mean, why is it that somebody
can go up before them and say I'm really sorry
and somehow that makes them more amicable to making a
decision to parole them than someone who has stood on
his innocence for the entire time from the trial, all
the way through thirty five years, I gained nothing by
(24:13):
standing on a claim of innocence unless I actually possess it.
Because most of the inmates that I have that talk
to me today, because they come from the point of
view of being guilty, and they jump at a chance
to get out of prison. They think it's because of
my pride that I won't just say I'm sorry for
(24:34):
the pro you know, just say it. What do you care?
What do they you know? What does it matter? Just
say you're sorry and proll out. Well, you know, I
understand their perspective, I really do. But I'm not guilty.
And it's not just about me. It's about my wife,
and she deserves better justice than this. I know that
(24:55):
that's not a sentiment that's felt across the board and
the people who have opposed me case, but it is
an actual fact. She deserves better than this. She deserves justice.
She deserves to have the truth come out. She doesn't
deserve to have her husband falsely accused, convicted and thrown
away and the real killer go free. She doesn't deserve that.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
She was worthy of real justice.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
And I have to stand on that. And you know
this is not this is not you know, saying I'm sorry.
Speaker 4 (25:23):
For stealing a candy bar. I didn't steal.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
This is this is standing up for what's right. And
I simply cannot live with myself labeled as a murderer.
I just cannot do it.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
I'm not going to do it.
Speaker 1 (25:37):
So, you know, and you would think that after all
this time, you know, I've had the opportunity to take
deals to go home. I could have taken a deal
before a trial even started that would have sent me
home thirty two years ago, Gilbert thirty two years ago.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Leo's talking about how, just before he went to trial
in nineteen eighty nine, the state offered him the opportunity
to plead guilty to a lesser charge of second degree murder.
If Leo had taken the deal, there would have been
no trial and no threat of the death penalty.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
Think about that. So, despite what John A.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Guirrell tells the jury about you know, how vicious I
am and all of other stuff, they were willing to
let me go thirty two years ago without telling the
jury a single word.
Speaker 4 (26:25):
And that's a fact of the case. It's public record.
Speaker 2 (26:29):
Can you just talk about that briefly, Leo, and what
that would have meant to you in terms of sentencing.
Speaker 4 (26:34):
Okay, well what.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
That would have meant at that time I was under
a guideline sentence, and it would have been a twelve
to seventeen year guideline sentence, And that sounds like a
lot of time, but it's really not because they they
wouldn't have been able to give me more than twelve years,
because they wouldn't have had any reason to aggravate. I
have no prior felonies, and on twelve years, I got
(26:55):
a third off automatically, so that's four off of that.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
That leaves eight.
Speaker 1 (26:58):
I got day to day the jail time, that's two
hundred and sixty two days. It's almost another year, so
now you're down into seven and then I'm getting twenty
days a month gain time to this day. That doesn't
apply to a life sentence, so you're cutting it more
than in half. So I would not have done more
than three and a half years on the twelve but
taking a deal of a second degree, and instead of
(27:20):
taking that, I faced the death penalty because that's what
I was facing. Now here's something else in Nates will
tell you there's nobody and here, nobody in here that
knows that they were caught guilty in trial facing the
death penalty, that would not take three and a half years,
and try to beat the death penalty on a case
(27:41):
like this. No one would have done that, no one,
no one in their right mind. And you could call
me a lot of things back then. You can call
me a lot of things now, but you cannot call
me stupid, not stupid. I had told my attorney, and
I don't care if they offer me five minutes probation
and they say that I can do it on the
way to the airport to go back from Massachusetts, I
am not taking to any deals, and I was scared
(28:05):
to death. I didn't say.
Speaker 4 (28:06):
That with courage of being brave. I said it out.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
Of simple fact that I cannot.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
There's no choice in this for me.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Still, I could understand if Leo felt pressure to apologize,
to feign remorse so that he'd be granted parole. But
for Leo this has never been an option. To apologize
for killing his wife would mean he'd be lying, and
that would eliminate the possibility of real justice for Michelle,
(28:37):
and that he would never do, not in nineteen eighty
seven and not today, not even for the chance to
be released tomorrow.
Speaker 4 (28:46):
You know.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
It's this dangling parrot that's before me always, and I
want it.
Speaker 4 (28:51):
I want it really bad.
Speaker 1 (28:52):
I want to go home. I want to take care
of my wife and kid. I want to I want
to take care of my life. I want to go
out there and be able to live a little bit,
you know, and make my mistakes and do my good
deeds and all that stuff.
Speaker 4 (29:05):
And I want that really bad.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
But I don't want it enough that I'm going to
sacrifice who I am as a person, in the integrity
that I have. And it's not because I'm a saint,
it's not because I'm some great guy. It's simply because
I did not do it. That's it. There's no other
reason behind refusing to do those things. I don't want
(29:30):
to make the Commission angry with me. I don't want
to fight against Bryan Haws or Jerry Hill or Victoria Avon.
I don't want to drag them through any you know,
mud puddles. I have nothing to do with that. I
don't want anything to do with that. I just cannot
take the deal. I did not commit the crime.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
I've seen you preach in your sermons and I've seen
you talk about hope, and I'm just wondering, do you
have hope right now for this next parole hearing?
Speaker 1 (30:00):
Yeah, I do.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
I have great hope.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
The narrative of my life has been changed, and Michelle's
truth is now very widely known across the world, and
knowing that they finally know the truth is everything to
me because that has to be ninety percent of what
my mission has always been for thirty five years. Ninety
percent of my fight has been about getting justice for her.
(30:26):
Really doesn't matter who in the state acknowledges that or not.
People are acknowledging it, and that's justice for Michelle.
Speaker 4 (30:35):
Now.
Speaker 1 (30:35):
Now I can rest with that now. The other ten
percent was hoping that I could somehow get myself back
home to take care of the family that I'm in
love with now, and you know, I'm still hopeful for
that to happen. But the main part of this goal
that I have is complete. People know in the past
I haven't had that. So yeah, I do have a.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Lot of hope.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
And I don't know what the Commission knows.
Speaker 4 (31:01):
I really don't. I don't know them.
Speaker 1 (31:03):
I know, like I understand all that Victoria Avalon knows
she's been part of this case, and so she knows
my claim and she knows who I am. And you know,
I'm not sure what she thinks about it, And even
more cloudy is what the Commission thinks about But they're
all human beings, and so this is a chance for
all of them, all of them to come out. We
(31:24):
can all come out of this in a really good place.
We can all come out of this ahead, and it
will never come back in their face. Victoria Avalon would
never be embarrassed for coming away saying this wasn't right.
It'll never come back to her because I.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
Didn't do it.
Speaker 1 (31:40):
I keep saying that. It's just a fact. I'm not
after money, I'm not after fame. I don't need an
apology for me. I'm not asking for any of that.
All I'm asking for is justice with Michelle and my freedom.
And so, yeah, I have a lot of hope because
now the story has been told, and it's been told
in a very very big way, and it's been told
(32:01):
very comprehensively. So I have a lot of hope because
I think I think these people who will supporting me
now are not going to take no for an answer.
On this, and if the answer becomes no, I think
a lot of people are going to want to know why.
Speaker 2 (32:21):
If Leo's denied parole in this his fourth attempt, so
many of you will want to know why. There's a
level of scrutiny now that the state cannot escape. I
don't know if there's really a way to make things
right at this point. In a few months, in June,
it'll be thirty five years since Leo's known a day
(32:42):
of freedom. Many of those years were spent in hopeless isolation,
with Leo pleading for someone, anyone to listen and believe
that he's an innocent man. Now there are people all
around the world who have heard his story and believe
in his innocence, people who are waiting and watching to
(33:03):
see what happens next, and that is what gives him hope.
Speaker 1 (33:09):
And please make sure to thank all those supporters because
that means a lot. I really I'm appreciative of the
opportunity to tell them thank you personally, because that's everything
to me. They totally have changed my life. I cannot
say enough. And hopefully we come to a good end
in the story, and what a celebration that will be,
(33:30):
you know, it's time.
Speaker 4 (33:31):
I mean, it just is. It's just time.
Host
Gilbert King
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