March 8, 2023 • 33 mins
Leo shares a message for listeners of Bone Valley about the impact of the podcast on his life, and his hopes for freedom.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This is a prepaid call from an inmate at a
Florida Department of Corrections institution. To accept this call, press
zero to refuse this call, Hang up or press Thank
you for using Global Tellink. Hi, Leo, how are you?
I'm doing well, Gilbert, how are you? I'm going to
add Kelsey to the call, so just hang on a second. Hey, Hey,
(00:27):
I'm merging the calls. Okay, I think we're set. It's
been about four months since the release of Bone Valley's
final episode. But I shouldn't say final because this story
is far from over. The book I'm supposed to be writing, well,
I just keep putting it off instead. I'm still working
(00:50):
on this case. I'm constantly in touch with Leo's defense team,
which now officially includes the former judge Scott Cupp. I'm
speaking with journalists and podcast host as well as lawyers
and listeners who ask me how they can help support Leo.
I've even been corresponding with Jeremy Scott, who is still
in solitary confinement and still eager to share more of
(01:13):
his story with me. But more on that another time.
Because this episode is about Leo. Leo calls me a
few times a week. For months now, he's been sharing
stories about how his life has changed since the release
of Bone Valley. He still hasn't been able to listen
to the show in full, but he's heard bits and
pieces here and there. Chrissie and other members of his
(01:36):
family have played parts of episodes for him over the phone,
and he's seen partial transcripts of episodes. But for the
most part, Leo's understanding of Bone Valley has been through
the interactions he's had with corrections officers and prison contractors,
the family members of other inmates who approach him in
the visitation part, and the many many letters he's received
(01:57):
from listeners. And he wants to share some of these
stories and what it's meant to him with you. You know,
when this when this story was first being put together,
and when the podcast first aired, and everything I think
you even had had told me you were trying to
prestare me for the the response that I would get.
(02:22):
And it was really strange because the first couple of
months after the podcast was was was put out, I
didn't I didn't get a single email from anybody, and
so I thought, well, you know, maybe I'm too old.
Maybe you know, it's not that interesting to talk to me,
and and and just all of a sudden, I don't,
I don't. I think it was like one episode, the
final episode came out was it was nine, and I
(02:43):
think the ninth one really set people off. And then
all of a sudden, I was getting emails every single day,
thirty forty emails a day from all of not just
in the United States, but from Canada, Australia, from Argentina,
from Ireland, got a lot from Ireland, got a lot
(03:04):
from the UK. And these people were just responding to
this stuff. And I was not prepared for that at all.
I mean, and you know, I'm the kind of guy
that you I'm pretty sentimental, you know. I don't hope
I should say that publicly because you've got to be
a tough guy in here, right, But I'm not really
that tough and have a big heart, big soft heart.
(03:24):
And when when people write to me and they say
I love you, I respond, I love you too. What's
your name? You know, it's just really really really crazy,
and just it's it's very very exciting for me. I
can't even explain how encouraging it is to have people
believe in me after all these years and to know
(03:47):
the truth finally and to respond with the kind of
love that has been really lacking in my life and
in the life of my wife, my dad for so
many years. You know, we've been doing this thing until
you came along, pretty much on our own. And I
have this kind of love and support from so many
different parts of the world. Was absolutely overwhelming, and I
(04:11):
can't say enough for how grateful I am for that.
It's hard to respond to everybody, but if you spend
a note or something with it, I will respond to
that aboutter how smaller, whatever it is. I try to
respond to all of them, to say thank you. At least.
Leo's ability to respond to all of these messages is
(04:32):
complicated by the new communication system recently put in place
by the Department of Corrections. Inmates don't receive physical copies
of their mail anymore. Instead, letters pass through a processing
center in Tampa, where they're opened, digitally, scanned, and delivered
through tablets that the prison provides. That means Leo doesn't
(04:52):
have the chance to hold the physical, handwritten letters from
his loved ones and new supporters, and Leo's digital inbo
only holds two hundred letters at a time, anything beyond
the two hundred most recent items is deleted, and Leo
doesn't want to miss any Saying thank you seems to
be such an understatement. I mean, you just cannot imagine
(05:16):
how life changing this whole thing has been for me personally.
But I'd also like to say this, because I've actually
thought about this, if I could connect with them in
any kind of real way, and I'd want them to
know how much I connect with them as they connect
to me. At the point where we're all ordinary people,
(05:38):
and I would imagine that, you know, all of us
have something that we deal with on a daily basis.
You know, mine has been this prison experience, and there
are many things. I got a friend right now, it's
in the ICU. He's dealing with health issue and his family,
and we're all dealing with things. And I really want
them to see me as an ordinary person, you know,
(05:59):
just like themselves. And the reason why that's so important
is because if they can see me as an ordinary person,
then they may be able to see the God that
I believe in as being extraordinary. Because at the center
of this story for me is God, I sort of
and I give them all the credit for making this
whole thing come about bringing all these people together. And
(06:22):
that's a very important message for me, and it will
be the center of my message leaving out of here
if in one night I get the opportunity to go home.
I really do appreciate this love and support that I've
received from them and continued to receive from them, and
it has absolutely changed my life and has given me
(06:44):
such great strength to continue with despight. Leu has also
felt to shift in his interactions, not just with people
on the outside, but also within the prison walls. Listen,
officers spent their job is not to be our friend,
know um. And for the most part, most of these
very professional they they they you know, there's a democrated
(07:06):
line between you know, inmates and staff, and that's the
nature of prison. And you know some of them are
are overly not friendly, so they make sure that line
is very demarcated. And you know, I don't have any
issues at that. I'm not here to make friends either.
But there was one in particular, and um, he has
(07:30):
always been straight, narrow, and you know, very hard, and
he had he had heard the podcast and he had
approached me and said he was listening to it, and
his whole demeanor, his whole attitude of how he looked
at me, how he treated me, was totally different than
what it was prior to that. I mean, I have
(07:52):
yet to hear anybody that's been opposed to me, or
you know, even neutral, if they if they listened to
the Power podcast, that come away, you know, very convinced
and angry that the system is what it is. There's
an officer walked by me yesterday and I guess he's
new to the podcast. He said, Hey, I've been listening
to that podcast about you. And I said really, because
(08:14):
you know, I don't really know him really well, but
I said, what you think and he said, I think
you didn't do it. He just kept going yeah, And
you know, you get a lot of things like that,
you know, the sentiment is pretty strong. I think one
of the most moving ones for me was it's always
the moms that get me right. But there was this
one in particular. She didn't know me, and she asked
(08:36):
her son that she could meet me or say something
to me. You know, she's never spoken you before, so
she just came up. I was holding my youngest grandson,
who is you know, a serious chick magnet. You know,
he's a real cute little boy. And I figured she
was coming up to see him because they all do,
and and she was coming up with a smile on
her faith. And when she got up to me, she
(08:59):
didn't say anything. You know, it's kind of an awkward moment.
She was just paused, like she couldn't say and I
could see she was trying to gather her thoughts as
she put her on hand on my shoulder, and then
she said, I'm gonna cry. And then I realized she
was there to see me. And I gave my grandson
to him to his mother, and I said, come here,
and I gave her a big hug and she just
(09:19):
hugged me and she said I love you, And it
just choke me up as well. And she said, I
listened to the podcast and I should will thank you
for taking the time doing that. She said, I hope,
I so hope this ends well for you now. Of
course I thanked her, and that was that was just
one but the response from anybody who's listened to it,
(09:41):
it's been incredible. But there's another part of this experience
that's new to Leo News about Bone Valley has spread
throughout the prison population, and for the first time, everyone
who he's incarcerated with seems to know what he's in for.
It's a little bit of a challenge for me too,
by the way, because if you can imagine we don't
(10:03):
live our lives and here telling each other why we're here,
I mean, it wouldn't work out really well for some
of these guys who who you know, made some incredible
bad decisions in their lives and affective lives to others.
So if we don't walk around telling each other about
our cases and so it's a little bit unnerving. But
(10:24):
when they hear the whole sort, and when they hear everything,
what happens is they begin putting a lot of hopes
and my success because their hope is that, you know,
when I leave here, I will speak on their behalf
or people who are in similar situations. And there are
some there are a lot of good people in here.
A lot of these guys are just men who've made
(10:46):
bad mistakes and would never do it again. Now they're
paying for it with their lives. You know, I live
here with broken men. They're already broken. We're all broken.
And what we learned is that that's not that's not
a condition that's exclusive to prisoners. These people come from
the free world. We came in here broken. I'm not
(11:08):
an advocate of criminality, but I am an advocate for redemption,
for forgiveness, for restoration, and that being for the victims
as well. And so you know, it's a very naughty situation.
But you know, I'm carrying a great burden for these guys,
so it's not just about me with them too. Hi,
(11:40):
I'm Jason flam CEO and founder of Lava for Good podcasts,
home to Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War on Drugs,
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(12:03):
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Stand Together is a philanthropic community that partners with America's
boldest changemakers to tackle the root causes of our country's
(12:24):
biggest problems, including the failed war on drugs that has
criminalized addiction, fueled over incarceration, and shattered communities. At eleven
years old, Scott Strode drank his first beer. At fifteen,
Scott went to a mental health facility because of suicidal thoughts,
where he tried cocaine. Like many others who experience addiction,
(12:47):
Scott was using drugs and alcohol to numb the pain
he was trying to numb childhood trauma. In his early twenties,
Scott was invited into a boxing gym by a friend.
That's where he covered the healing power of sport and
community that helped propel him towards sobriety. In two thousand
and six, Scott founded The Phoenix, a free, sober active
(13:10):
community that uses the transformative power of sport to help
people treat and heal from addiction and imagine new possibilities
for their lives through fitness. The program restores compassion to
a system that has long relied on locking people up
to solve the addiction crisis. Scott Strode is one of
many entrepreneurs partnering with Stand Together to drive solutions in education, healthcare, poverty,
(13:37):
and criminal justice. To learn more about addiction and the
War on drugs, listen to the War on Drugs podcast
on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. As
the days, weeks, and months pass, there are certain dates
(13:59):
that reopen unhealed wounds. February twenty fourth was the anniversary
of Michelle's death, thirty six years since she was killed.
This anniversary is always a difficult day for Leo. I'm
just wondering what gets you through these dark times? You know,
is it faith? Is it music? What is it that
(14:20):
holds you together? You know, that's a really really good question,
and it's in a very important answer to The very
simple answer is that my faith and the God that
has got me this far is what gets me through
each and every one of those days. And it's not
just the February twenty fourth day to serve birthday on
December eight and our wedding day, but February is just
the worst because of what it represents. And this time
(14:42):
it was somehow more difficult. I was in a very
saddened state, it was. It was really tough. On the
day of the anniversary, Leo was sent a picture of
Michelle's grave. The headstone was a rich inscribed with her
married name, Michelle's Scofield, but after Leo was convicted of
(15:06):
her murder, the stone was replaced with one bearing her
maiden name, Michelle's Psalm. My sister had found a picture
somewhere and sent it to me, and I noticed that
my name was taken off of the headstone by her dad.
I totally understand his sentiment and this feeling, but I
didn't deserve that dishonor I don't want to, you know,
(15:27):
hurt him in any kind of way. It's just it
adds to the to the feeling of sadness that I
had on that day. These anniversaries are just part of
the stress that Leo was dealing with. On top of
the pressures of his life in prison. He was having
trouble sleeping, and all of this stress seemed to catch
up with him. A few days before we spoke, I
(15:50):
was at work, working with my boss and pushing a
tool cart, and I really didn't have any wanting. Apparently,
my blood pressure was high and somehow my heart got
out of rhythm and I felt when I felt it
come on, you know, it caused me to hitch my breathing,
so I asked my boss to give me a minute.
(16:11):
I put my head down. I was trying to catch
my breath and I couldn't get that rhythm right, and
I ended up falling on the ground, apparently. And the
only thing that I remember about being on the ground,
because I was laying there and looking up. I had
like tunnel vision, and I had this sound like it
(16:32):
was a jet plane in my ears. I was laying
there and I could see the sky and I couldn't
really see anything around me except the sky in front
of me, and it was just a position I was in.
It was a clear sky and clouds and and and
it was very very sublime for me because I was
(16:53):
seeing a fast expanse without looking through a fence or
raise or bars or steel doors or you know, you
take that for Brandon, because you know, we're always looking
horizontally here. You don't really look up a lot, and
so having that view was very surreal for me. It
was it was very um comforting. Leo told me that
(17:22):
as he was lying there looking up at the blue
sky and white clouds, there was a brief moment when
he didn't know where he was. He didn't know if
he was dead or alive, imprisoned or free. And wow,
that was pretty great for me. And that's the only
(17:43):
thing I remember about being on the ground. Have you
been able to listen to that final episode? Now? Unfortunately
I don't get too um. I mean, I've heard some
of it over the flong with Christy Sharonck with me,
(18:05):
and I heard Fox of it, and you know, I
know some of the things that it was about. We
told Leo some of what we learned from our interview
with Jeremy Scott, just bits and pieces. It's hard for
Leo to hear these details, but through family, Leo was
able to hear some more. And there was one part
that really stuck with him, Jeremy's insistence that he told
(18:28):
the prosecutor John Aguero all the way back in two
thousand and five that he was responsible for Michelle's murder.
This was a full decade before Jeremy confessed over the
phone to Leo's defense attorney. That is one segment of
it that I actually did get to hear that they
had played for me over the phone. And I'm going
(18:51):
to tell you my initial reaction at that moment, because
I didn't know that until then, I was very angry.
I was very angry because it became obvious to me
that my life, my wife's life, my wife today, Chrissie Ashley,
(19:14):
my family, Michelle, her family, none of that mattered to
that man. And had he done the right thing at
that point, I'd have been willing to stand there and
shake his hand and say, you know, we move on
from this, to just do the right thing, because anybody
can make a mistake. And I've never been vindictive about that.
(19:35):
I've never been bitter about it. I'm still not bitter
about it. But at that moment, I was extremely angry
because he didn't do the right thing. He covered it
up and I went years longer trying to fight this
case and lost at these appeals, and so it was
very It was very devastating for me. And ironically enough,
(19:55):
I was more angry with John Girl than I was
with Jeremy. Um. I think Jeremy was was more just
you know, at that point, than he was than Grew was.
I've sins by the way I've had I've had to
let that go through. John Aguarrow is dead. UM. If
I can just say this really quick about mister Gurow, Uh.
(20:17):
He was always like a name assist for me for
a little while. I think I probably was for him
as well. Leo told me about one time decades ago
at a post conviction hearing when he spotted John Aguero
in the courtroom and mister Gurow stood up and shook
my lawyer's hand and read him. He looked at me
and he asked me how I was doing, and he
(20:39):
was as sincereous you could be as asking that. I mean,
he was caudial for me, and I think I think
for me the years after that, he became somebody I
really wanted to prove this case too. You know, it
wasn't somebody I hated. I've never hated John and Guarl.
I believe that we need prosecutors. Unfortunately, we need the judiciary,
(21:01):
we need the DC. We need these systems in place
to protect people and to hold the other disaccountables who
violence crime. But for me, mister Gull represented somebody I
wanted to prove this case, or really wanted to prove
this case, and I felt like someday it would happen
and we would both be all right with it. And
(21:21):
then when I heard he died in Morocco, that was.
That was kind of sad for me because part of
the goal is not going to be able to be fulfilled.
But um, you know, now I have Victoria Avalon and
Brian Haws, and you know I want to prove it
to them too, but they don't have the history with
me that I had with mister Groll. And so for me,
(21:44):
it's never been about bitterness and never been about hatred
and proving somebody wrong. It was just about proving me innocent,
because that makes any sense. Leo's legal team is still
(22:09):
debating strategies to legally prove Leo's innocence, but in the meantime,
Leo has another opportunity for parole. We'll go into that
process in more depth and another follow up episode once
we have more details, but for now, what we do
know is that on March fifteenth, Leo will receive a
visit from an investigator with the Florida Commission on a
(22:32):
fender review. This person will show up at Hardy SI
and spend some time talking to Leo about his record
and his hopes for parole. The Commission will then promptly
set a date for Leo's hearing. Leo won't be able
to attend that hearing, but his attorneys will make their
case for his parole, and once again the panel of
(22:53):
three commissioners will publicly make their decision, and you know,
hopefully that we'll have people there to support and we'll
make our case. You get very very little time to
make your case, and historically the pro Commission has not
been very favorable to me. They could decide to grant
(23:17):
him parole so that he can eventually be home with
his family, but then again, he's never apologized for the
crime he was convicted of, which the state is pointed
to as the reason that Leo shouldn't be paroled. I
don't know how you can expect someone to apologize for
something that they did not do. And that's just a
(23:37):
fact that I have to deal with because pro Commission
does you know, I don't think they require it. I
think they expect it, and you know, and I guess
at some level they should. I try to understand their
perspective of it. The thing is, though, is that who
qualifies that I'm being Why is it that somebody can
go up before them and say I'm really sorry, and
(23:58):
somehow that makes them more amicable to making a decision
to parroll them. Then, someone who has stood on his
innocence for the entire time, from the trial all the
way through thirty five years. I gained nothing by standing
on a claim of innocence unless I actually possess it.
(24:19):
Because most of the inmates that I have to talk
to me today, because they come from the point of
view of being guilty, and they jump at a chance
to get out of prison. They think it's because of
my pride that I won't just say I'm sorry for
the pro you know, just say it. What do you care?
What do they you know, what does it matter? Just
(24:40):
say you're sorry and proll out. Well, you know, I
understand their perspective, I really do. But I'm not guilty,
and it's not just about me. It's about my wife,
and she deserves better justice than this. I know that
that's That's not a sentiment that's spelt across the board
and the people who have opposed me in the case,
(25:00):
but it is an actual fact. She deserves better than this.
She deserves justice. She deserves to have the truth come out.
She doesn't deserve to have her husband falsely accused, convicted
and thrown away and the real killer still free. She
doesn't deserve that, she was worthy of real justice, and
I have to stand on that. And you know, this
(25:21):
is not This is not you know, saying I'm sorry
if for stealing a candy bar, I didn't steal. This
is this is standing up for what's right. And I
simply cannot live with myself labeled as a murderer. I
just just cannot do it. No, I'm not going to
do it. So, you know, and you would think that
after all this time, you know, I've had the opportunity
(25:43):
to take deals to go home, and I could have
taken a deal before child even started that would have
sent me home thirty two years ago, Gilbert thirty two
years ago. Leo's talking about how, just before he went
to trial in nineteen eighty nine, the state offered him
the opportunity to plead guilty to a lesser charge of
(26:04):
second degree murder. If Leo had taken the deal, there
would have been no trial and no threat of the
death penalty. Think about that. So, despite what John Aguirrel
tells the jury about you know, how how vicious I
am and all of other stuff, they were willing to
let me go thirty two years ago without telling the
jury a single word, and that's a fact of the case.
(26:27):
It's public record. Can you just talk about that briefly, Leo,
and what that would have meant to you in terms
of sentencing? Okay, well, what that would have meant at
that time, I was under a guideline sentence, and it
would have been a twelve twelve to seventeen year guideline sentence.
And that sounds like a lot of time, but it's
really not because they wouldn't They wouldn't have been able
to give any more than twelve years because I didn't.
(26:47):
They wouldn't have had any reason to aggravate. I have
no prior felonies, and on twelve years I was. I
got a third off automatically, so that's four off of that.
That leaves eight. I got day for day of the
jail time. That's two hundred and sixty two days. It's
almost another year, so now you're down into seven and
then I'm getting twenty days a month gain time to
this day. That doesn't apply to a life sentence, so
(27:11):
you're cutting it more than in half. So I would
not have done more than three and a half years
on the twelve. But taking a deal of second degree
and instead of taking that, I faced the death penalty
because that's what I was facing. Now here's something else
in NATS will tell you there's nobody and hear nobody
in here that knows that they were caught guilty in
(27:33):
trial based on the death penalty. That will not take
three and a half years and try to beat the
death penalty on a case like this. No one would
have done that, no one, no one in their right mind.
And you could call me a lot of things back then.
You can call me a lot of things now, but
you cannot call me stupid, not stupid. I had told
(27:54):
my attorney and I don't care if they offer me
five minutes probation and they say that I can do
it on the way to the airport to go back
from Massachusetts. I am not taking any deals and I
was scared to death. I didn't say that with courage
or being brave. I said it out of simple fact
that I cannot. There's no choice in this for me. Still,
(28:18):
I could understand if Leo felt pressure to apologize, to
feign remorse so that he'd be granted parole. But for Leo,
this has never been an option to apologize for killing
his wife would mean he'd be lying, and that would
eliminate the possibility of real justice for Michelle, and that
(28:38):
he would never do not in nineteen eighty seven, and
not today, not even for the chance to be released tomorrow.
You know, this dangling tarret that's deformed me always, And
I want it. I want it really bad. I want
to go home. I want to take care of my
wife and kid. I want to I want to take
care of my life. I want to go out there
(28:58):
and be able to live a little bit, you know,
and make my mistakes and do my good deeds and
all of that stuff. And I want that really bad.
But I don't want it enough that I'm going to
sacrifice who I am as a person in the integrity
that I have. It's not because I'm a saint, it's
not because I'm some great guy. It's simply because I
(29:22):
did not do it. That's it. There's no other reason
behind refusing to do those things. I don't want to
make the Commission angry with me. I don't want to
fight against Bryan Hoss or Jerry Hill or Victoria Avant.
I don't want to drag them through any you know,
mud puddles or I have nothing to do with that.
(29:43):
I don't want anything to do with that. I just
cannot take the deal. I did not commit the crime.
I've seen you preach and I in your sermons, and
I've seen you talk about hope, and I'm just wondering,
do you have hope right now for this next parole hearing? Yeah,
I do. I have great hope. The narrative of my
(30:04):
life has been changed, and Michelle's truth is now very
widely known across the world, and knowing that they finally
know the truth is everything to me because that has
to be ninety percent of what my mission has always
been for thirty five years. Ninety percent of my fight
has been about getting justice for her. Really doesn't matter
(30:28):
who in the state acknowledges that or not. People are
acknowledging it, and that's justice for Michelle. Now now I
can rest with that. The other ten percent was hoping
that I could somehow get myself back home and take
care of the family that I'm in love with now
and you know, I'm still hopeful for that to happen.
But the main part of this goal that I have
(30:50):
is complete. People know, in the past I haven't had that,
so Yeah, I do have a lot of open I
don't know what the Commission knows. I really don't don't.
I don't know them. I not like I understand all that.
Victoria Avalon knows. She's been part of this case, and
so she knows my claim and she knows who I am,
(31:11):
and you know, I'm not sure what she thinks about it.
And even more cloudy is what the Commission thinks about it.
But they're all human beings, and so this is a
chance for all of them and all of them to
come out. We can all come out of this in
a really good place. We can all come out of
this as the head. And it will never come back
in their face. Victoria Avalon would never be embarrassed or
(31:35):
coming away saying this wasn't right. It'll never come back
to her because I didn't do it. I keep saying that.
It's just the fact. And I'm not after money, I'm
not after fame. I don't need an apology to me.
I'm not asking for any of that. All I'm asking
for is justice with Michelle and my freedom. And so, yeah,
I have a lot of hope because now the story
(31:56):
has been told, and it's been told in a very,
very big way, and it's been told very comprehensively. So
I have a lot of hope because I think I
think these people who have support me now are not
going to take no for an answer on this. And
if the answer becomes no, I think a lot of
people are gonna want to know why. If Leo's denied
(32:22):
parole in this his fourth attempt, so many of you
will want to know why. There's a level of scrutiny
now that the state cannot escape. I don't know if
there's really a way to make things right at this point.
In a few months, in June, it'll be thirty five
years since Leo's known a day of freedom. Many of
(32:43):
those years were spent in hopeless isolation, with Leo pleading
for someone, anyone to listen and believe that he's an
innocent man. Now there are people all around the world
who have heard his story and believe in his innocence,
people who are waiting and watching to see what happens next,
(33:06):
and that is what gives him hope. And please make
sure to thank all those supporters, because that means a lot.
I really I'm appreciative of the opportunity to tell them
thank you personally because that's everything for me. They totally
have changed my life. I cannot say enough. And hopefully
we come to a good end in the story and
(33:27):
what a celebration that will be. You know, it's time,
I mean, it just is. It's just time.
This is a prepaid call from an inmate at a
Florida Department of Corrections institution. To accept this call, press
zero to refuse this call, Hang up or press Thank
you for using Global Tellink. Hi, Leo, how are you?
I'm doing well, Gilbert, how are you? I'm going to
add Kelsey to the call, so just hang on a second. Hey, Hey,
(00:27):
I'm merging the calls. Okay, I think we're set. It's
been about four months since the release of Bone Valley's
final episode. But I shouldn't say final because this story
is far from over. The book I'm supposed to be writing, well,
I just keep putting it off instead. I'm still working
(00:50):
on this case. I'm constantly in touch with Leo's defense team,
which now officially includes the former judge Scott Cupp. I'm
speaking with journalists and podcast host as well as lawyers
and listeners who ask me how they can help support Leo.
I've even been corresponding with Jeremy Scott, who is still
in solitary confinement and still eager to share more of
(01:13):
his story with me. But more on that another time.
Because this episode is about Leo. Leo calls me a
few times a week. For months now, he's been sharing
stories about how his life has changed since the release
of Bone Valley. He still hasn't been able to listen
to the show in full, but he's heard bits and
pieces here and there. Chrissie and other members of his
(01:36):
family have played parts of episodes for him over the phone,
and he's seen partial transcripts of episodes. But for the
most part, Leo's understanding of Bone Valley has been through
the interactions he's had with corrections officers and prison contractors,
the family members of other inmates who approach him in
the visitation part, and the many many letters he's received
(01:57):
from listeners. And he wants to share some of these
stories and what it's meant to him with you. You know,
when this when this story was first being put together,
and when the podcast first aired, and everything I think
you even had had told me you were trying to
prestare me for the the response that I would get.
(02:22):
And it was really strange because the first couple of
months after the podcast was was was put out, I
didn't I didn't get a single email from anybody, and
so I thought, well, you know, maybe I'm too old.
Maybe you know, it's not that interesting to talk to me,
and and and just all of a sudden, I don't,
I don't. I think it was like one episode, the
final episode came out was it was nine, and I
(02:43):
think the ninth one really set people off. And then
all of a sudden, I was getting emails every single day,
thirty forty emails a day from all of not just
in the United States, but from Canada, Australia, from Argentina,
from Ireland, got a lot from Ireland, got a lot
(03:04):
from the UK. And these people were just responding to
this stuff. And I was not prepared for that at all.
I mean, and you know, I'm the kind of guy
that you I'm pretty sentimental, you know. I don't hope
I should say that publicly because you've got to be
a tough guy in here, right, But I'm not really
that tough and have a big heart, big soft heart.
(03:24):
And when when people write to me and they say
I love you, I respond, I love you too. What's
your name? You know, it's just really really really crazy,
and just it's it's very very exciting for me. I
can't even explain how encouraging it is to have people
believe in me after all these years and to know
(03:47):
the truth finally and to respond with the kind of
love that has been really lacking in my life and
in the life of my wife, my dad for so
many years. You know, we've been doing this thing until
you came along, pretty much on our own. And I
have this kind of love and support from so many
different parts of the world. Was absolutely overwhelming, and I
(04:11):
can't say enough for how grateful I am for that.
It's hard to respond to everybody, but if you spend
a note or something with it, I will respond to
that aboutter how smaller, whatever it is. I try to
respond to all of them, to say thank you. At least.
Leo's ability to respond to all of these messages is
(04:32):
complicated by the new communication system recently put in place
by the Department of Corrections. Inmates don't receive physical copies
of their mail anymore. Instead, letters pass through a processing
center in Tampa, where they're opened, digitally, scanned, and delivered
through tablets that the prison provides. That means Leo doesn't
(04:52):
have the chance to hold the physical, handwritten letters from
his loved ones and new supporters, and Leo's digital inbo
only holds two hundred letters at a time, anything beyond
the two hundred most recent items is deleted, and Leo
doesn't want to miss any Saying thank you seems to
be such an understatement. I mean, you just cannot imagine
(05:16):
how life changing this whole thing has been for me personally.
But I'd also like to say this, because I've actually
thought about this, if I could connect with them in
any kind of real way, and I'd want them to
know how much I connect with them as they connect
to me. At the point where we're all ordinary people,
(05:38):
and I would imagine that, you know, all of us
have something that we deal with on a daily basis.
You know, mine has been this prison experience, and there
are many things. I got a friend right now, it's
in the ICU. He's dealing with health issue and his family,
and we're all dealing with things. And I really want
them to see me as an ordinary person, you know,
(05:59):
just like themselves. And the reason why that's so important
is because if they can see me as an ordinary person,
then they may be able to see the God that
I believe in as being extraordinary. Because at the center
of this story for me is God, I sort of
and I give them all the credit for making this
whole thing come about bringing all these people together. And
(06:22):
that's a very important message for me, and it will
be the center of my message leaving out of here
if in one night I get the opportunity to go home.
I really do appreciate this love and support that I've
received from them and continued to receive from them, and
it has absolutely changed my life and has given me
(06:44):
such great strength to continue with despight. Leu has also
felt to shift in his interactions, not just with people
on the outside, but also within the prison walls. Listen,
officers spent their job is not to be our friend,
know um. And for the most part, most of these
very professional they they they you know, there's a democrated
(07:06):
line between you know, inmates and staff, and that's the
nature of prison. And you know some of them are
are overly not friendly, so they make sure that line
is very demarcated. And you know, I don't have any
issues at that. I'm not here to make friends either.
But there was one in particular, and um, he has
(07:30):
always been straight, narrow, and you know, very hard, and
he had he had heard the podcast and he had
approached me and said he was listening to it, and
his whole demeanor, his whole attitude of how he looked
at me, how he treated me, was totally different than
what it was prior to that. I mean, I have
(07:52):
yet to hear anybody that's been opposed to me, or
you know, even neutral, if they if they listened to
the Power podcast, that come away, you know, very convinced
and angry that the system is what it is. There's
an officer walked by me yesterday and I guess he's
new to the podcast. He said, Hey, I've been listening
to that podcast about you. And I said really, because
(08:14):
you know, I don't really know him really well, but
I said, what you think and he said, I think
you didn't do it. He just kept going yeah, And
you know, you get a lot of things like that,
you know, the sentiment is pretty strong. I think one
of the most moving ones for me was it's always
the moms that get me right. But there was this
one in particular. She didn't know me, and she asked
(08:36):
her son that she could meet me or say something
to me. You know, she's never spoken you before, so
she just came up. I was holding my youngest grandson,
who is you know, a serious chick magnet. You know,
he's a real cute little boy. And I figured she
was coming up to see him because they all do,
and and she was coming up with a smile on
her faith. And when she got up to me, she
(08:59):
didn't say anything. You know, it's kind of an awkward moment.
She was just paused, like she couldn't say and I
could see she was trying to gather her thoughts as
she put her on hand on my shoulder, and then
she said, I'm gonna cry. And then I realized she
was there to see me. And I gave my grandson
to him to his mother, and I said, come here,
and I gave her a big hug and she just
(09:19):
hugged me and she said I love you, And it
just choke me up as well. And she said, I
listened to the podcast and I should will thank you
for taking the time doing that. She said, I hope,
I so hope this ends well for you now. Of
course I thanked her, and that was that was just
one but the response from anybody who's listened to it,
(09:41):
it's been incredible. But there's another part of this experience
that's new to Leo News about Bone Valley has spread
throughout the prison population, and for the first time, everyone
who he's incarcerated with seems to know what he's in for.
It's a little bit of a challenge for me too,
by the way, because if you can imagine we don't
(10:03):
live our lives and here telling each other why we're here,
I mean, it wouldn't work out really well for some
of these guys who who you know, made some incredible
bad decisions in their lives and affective lives to others.
So if we don't walk around telling each other about
our cases and so it's a little bit unnerving. But
(10:24):
when they hear the whole sort, and when they hear everything,
what happens is they begin putting a lot of hopes
and my success because their hope is that, you know,
when I leave here, I will speak on their behalf
or people who are in similar situations. And there are
some there are a lot of good people in here.
A lot of these guys are just men who've made
(10:46):
bad mistakes and would never do it again. Now they're
paying for it with their lives. You know, I live
here with broken men. They're already broken. We're all broken.
And what we learned is that that's not that's not
a condition that's exclusive to prisoners. These people come from
the free world. We came in here broken. I'm not
(11:08):
an advocate of criminality, but I am an advocate for redemption,
for forgiveness, for restoration, and that being for the victims
as well. And so you know, it's a very naughty situation.
But you know, I'm carrying a great burden for these guys,
so it's not just about me with them too. Hi,
(11:40):
I'm Jason flam CEO and founder of Lava for Good podcasts,
home to Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War on Drugs,
and many other great podcasts. Today we're asking you, our listeners,
to take part in the survey. Your feedback is going
to help inform how we make podcasts in the future.
You're complete and candidate answers will help us continue to
bring you war, insightful and inspiring stories about important topics
(12:03):
that impact us all. So please go to Lava for
Good dot com slash survey and participate today. Thank you
for your support. Bone Valley is sponsored by Stand Together.
Stand Together is a philanthropic community that partners with America's
boldest changemakers to tackle the root causes of our country's
(12:24):
biggest problems, including the failed war on drugs that has
criminalized addiction, fueled over incarceration, and shattered communities. At eleven
years old, Scott Strode drank his first beer. At fifteen,
Scott went to a mental health facility because of suicidal thoughts,
where he tried cocaine. Like many others who experience addiction,
(12:47):
Scott was using drugs and alcohol to numb the pain
he was trying to numb childhood trauma. In his early twenties,
Scott was invited into a boxing gym by a friend.
That's where he covered the healing power of sport and
community that helped propel him towards sobriety. In two thousand
and six, Scott founded The Phoenix, a free, sober active
(13:10):
community that uses the transformative power of sport to help
people treat and heal from addiction and imagine new possibilities
for their lives through fitness. The program restores compassion to
a system that has long relied on locking people up
to solve the addiction crisis. Scott Strode is one of
many entrepreneurs partnering with Stand Together to drive solutions in education, healthcare, poverty,
(13:37):
and criminal justice. To learn more about addiction and the
War on drugs, listen to the War on Drugs podcast
on Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. As
the days, weeks, and months pass, there are certain dates
(13:59):
that reopen unhealed wounds. February twenty fourth was the anniversary
of Michelle's death, thirty six years since she was killed.
This anniversary is always a difficult day for Leo. I'm
just wondering what gets you through these dark times? You know,
is it faith? Is it music? What is it that
(14:20):
holds you together? You know, that's a really really good question,
and it's in a very important answer to The very
simple answer is that my faith and the God that
has got me this far is what gets me through
each and every one of those days. And it's not
just the February twenty fourth day to serve birthday on
December eight and our wedding day, but February is just
the worst because of what it represents. And this time
(14:42):
it was somehow more difficult. I was in a very
saddened state, it was. It was really tough. On the
day of the anniversary, Leo was sent a picture of
Michelle's grave. The headstone was a rich inscribed with her
married name, Michelle's Scofield, but after Leo was convicted of
(15:06):
her murder, the stone was replaced with one bearing her
maiden name, Michelle's Psalm. My sister had found a picture
somewhere and sent it to me, and I noticed that
my name was taken off of the headstone by her dad.
I totally understand his sentiment and this feeling, but I
didn't deserve that dishonor I don't want to, you know,
(15:27):
hurt him in any kind of way. It's just it
adds to the to the feeling of sadness that I
had on that day. These anniversaries are just part of
the stress that Leo was dealing with. On top of
the pressures of his life in prison. He was having
trouble sleeping, and all of this stress seemed to catch
up with him. A few days before we spoke, I
(15:50):
was at work, working with my boss and pushing a
tool cart, and I really didn't have any wanting. Apparently,
my blood pressure was high and somehow my heart got
out of rhythm and I felt when I felt it
come on, you know, it caused me to hitch my breathing,
so I asked my boss to give me a minute.
(16:11):
I put my head down. I was trying to catch
my breath and I couldn't get that rhythm right, and
I ended up falling on the ground, apparently. And the
only thing that I remember about being on the ground,
because I was laying there and looking up. I had
like tunnel vision, and I had this sound like it
(16:32):
was a jet plane in my ears. I was laying
there and I could see the sky and I couldn't
really see anything around me except the sky in front
of me, and it was just a position I was in.
It was a clear sky and clouds and and and
it was very very sublime for me because I was
(16:53):
seeing a fast expanse without looking through a fence or
raise or bars or steel doors or you know, you
take that for Brandon, because you know, we're always looking
horizontally here. You don't really look up a lot, and
so having that view was very surreal for me. It
was it was very um comforting. Leo told me that
(17:22):
as he was lying there looking up at the blue
sky and white clouds, there was a brief moment when
he didn't know where he was. He didn't know if
he was dead or alive, imprisoned or free. And wow,
that was pretty great for me. And that's the only
(17:43):
thing I remember about being on the ground. Have you
been able to listen to that final episode? Now? Unfortunately
I don't get too um. I mean, I've heard some
of it over the flong with Christy Sharonck with me,
(18:05):
and I heard Fox of it, and you know, I
know some of the things that it was about. We
told Leo some of what we learned from our interview
with Jeremy Scott, just bits and pieces. It's hard for
Leo to hear these details, but through family, Leo was
able to hear some more. And there was one part
that really stuck with him, Jeremy's insistence that he told
(18:28):
the prosecutor John Aguero all the way back in two
thousand and five that he was responsible for Michelle's murder.
This was a full decade before Jeremy confessed over the
phone to Leo's defense attorney. That is one segment of
it that I actually did get to hear that they
had played for me over the phone. And I'm going
(18:51):
to tell you my initial reaction at that moment, because
I didn't know that until then, I was very angry.
I was very angry because it became obvious to me
that my life, my wife's life, my wife today, Chrissie Ashley,
(19:14):
my family, Michelle, her family, none of that mattered to
that man. And had he done the right thing at
that point, I'd have been willing to stand there and
shake his hand and say, you know, we move on
from this, to just do the right thing, because anybody
can make a mistake. And I've never been vindictive about that.
(19:35):
I've never been bitter about it. I'm still not bitter
about it. But at that moment, I was extremely angry
because he didn't do the right thing. He covered it
up and I went years longer trying to fight this
case and lost at these appeals, and so it was
very It was very devastating for me. And ironically enough,
(19:55):
I was more angry with John Girl than I was
with Jeremy. Um. I think Jeremy was was more just
you know, at that point, than he was than Grew was.
I've sins by the way I've had I've had to
let that go through. John Aguarrow is dead. UM. If
I can just say this really quick about mister Gurow, Uh.
(20:17):
He was always like a name assist for me for
a little while. I think I probably was for him
as well. Leo told me about one time decades ago
at a post conviction hearing when he spotted John Aguero
in the courtroom and mister Gurow stood up and shook
my lawyer's hand and read him. He looked at me
and he asked me how I was doing, and he
(20:39):
was as sincereous you could be as asking that. I mean,
he was caudial for me, and I think I think
for me the years after that, he became somebody I
really wanted to prove this case too. You know, it
wasn't somebody I hated. I've never hated John and Guarl.
I believe that we need prosecutors. Unfortunately, we need the judiciary,
(21:01):
we need the DC. We need these systems in place
to protect people and to hold the other disaccountables who
violence crime. But for me, mister Gull represented somebody I
wanted to prove this case, or really wanted to prove
this case, and I felt like someday it would happen
and we would both be all right with it. And
(21:21):
then when I heard he died in Morocco, that was.
That was kind of sad for me because part of
the goal is not going to be able to be fulfilled.
But um, you know, now I have Victoria Avalon and
Brian Haws, and you know I want to prove it
to them too, but they don't have the history with
me that I had with mister Groll. And so for me,
(21:44):
it's never been about bitterness and never been about hatred
and proving somebody wrong. It was just about proving me innocent,
because that makes any sense. Leo's legal team is still
(22:09):
debating strategies to legally prove Leo's innocence, but in the meantime,
Leo has another opportunity for parole. We'll go into that
process in more depth and another follow up episode once
we have more details, but for now, what we do
know is that on March fifteenth, Leo will receive a
visit from an investigator with the Florida Commission on a
(22:32):
fender review. This person will show up at Hardy SI
and spend some time talking to Leo about his record
and his hopes for parole. The Commission will then promptly
set a date for Leo's hearing. Leo won't be able
to attend that hearing, but his attorneys will make their
case for his parole, and once again the panel of
(22:53):
three commissioners will publicly make their decision, and you know,
hopefully that we'll have people there to support and we'll
make our case. You get very very little time to
make your case, and historically the pro Commission has not
been very favorable to me. They could decide to grant
(23:17):
him parole so that he can eventually be home with
his family, but then again, he's never apologized for the
crime he was convicted of, which the state is pointed
to as the reason that Leo shouldn't be paroled. I
don't know how you can expect someone to apologize for
something that they did not do. And that's just a
(23:37):
fact that I have to deal with because pro Commission
does you know, I don't think they require it. I
think they expect it, and you know, and I guess
at some level they should. I try to understand their
perspective of it. The thing is, though, is that who
qualifies that I'm being Why is it that somebody can
go up before them and say I'm really sorry, and
(23:58):
somehow that makes them more amicable to making a decision
to parroll them. Then, someone who has stood on his
innocence for the entire time, from the trial all the
way through thirty five years. I gained nothing by standing
on a claim of innocence unless I actually possess it.
(24:19):
Because most of the inmates that I have to talk
to me today, because they come from the point of
view of being guilty, and they jump at a chance
to get out of prison. They think it's because of
my pride that I won't just say I'm sorry for
the pro you know, just say it. What do you care?
What do they you know, what does it matter? Just
(24:40):
say you're sorry and proll out. Well, you know, I
understand their perspective, I really do. But I'm not guilty,
and it's not just about me. It's about my wife,
and she deserves better justice than this. I know that
that's That's not a sentiment that's spelt across the board
and the people who have opposed me in the case,
(25:00):
but it is an actual fact. She deserves better than this.
She deserves justice. She deserves to have the truth come out.
She doesn't deserve to have her husband falsely accused, convicted
and thrown away and the real killer still free. She
doesn't deserve that, she was worthy of real justice, and
I have to stand on that. And you know, this
(25:21):
is not This is not you know, saying I'm sorry
if for stealing a candy bar, I didn't steal. This
is this is standing up for what's right. And I
simply cannot live with myself labeled as a murderer. I
just just cannot do it. No, I'm not going to
do it. So, you know, and you would think that
after all this time, you know, I've had the opportunity
(25:43):
to take deals to go home, and I could have
taken a deal before child even started that would have
sent me home thirty two years ago, Gilbert thirty two
years ago. Leo's talking about how, just before he went
to trial in nineteen eighty nine, the state offered him
the opportunity to plead guilty to a lesser charge of
(26:04):
second degree murder. If Leo had taken the deal, there
would have been no trial and no threat of the
death penalty. Think about that. So, despite what John Aguirrel
tells the jury about you know, how how vicious I
am and all of other stuff, they were willing to
let me go thirty two years ago without telling the
jury a single word, and that's a fact of the case.
(26:27):
It's public record. Can you just talk about that briefly, Leo,
and what that would have meant to you in terms
of sentencing? Okay, well, what that would have meant at
that time, I was under a guideline sentence, and it
would have been a twelve twelve to seventeen year guideline sentence.
And that sounds like a lot of time, but it's
really not because they wouldn't They wouldn't have been able
to give any more than twelve years because I didn't.
(26:47):
They wouldn't have had any reason to aggravate. I have
no prior felonies, and on twelve years I was. I
got a third off automatically, so that's four off of that.
That leaves eight. I got day for day of the
jail time. That's two hundred and sixty two days. It's
almost another year, so now you're down into seven and
then I'm getting twenty days a month gain time to
this day. That doesn't apply to a life sentence, so
(27:11):
you're cutting it more than in half. So I would
not have done more than three and a half years
on the twelve. But taking a deal of second degree
and instead of taking that, I faced the death penalty
because that's what I was facing. Now here's something else
in NATS will tell you there's nobody and hear nobody
in here that knows that they were caught guilty in
(27:33):
trial based on the death penalty. That will not take
three and a half years and try to beat the
death penalty on a case like this. No one would
have done that, no one, no one in their right mind.
And you could call me a lot of things back then.
You can call me a lot of things now, but
you cannot call me stupid, not stupid. I had told
(27:54):
my attorney and I don't care if they offer me
five minutes probation and they say that I can do
it on the way to the airport to go back
from Massachusetts. I am not taking any deals and I
was scared to death. I didn't say that with courage
or being brave. I said it out of simple fact
that I cannot. There's no choice in this for me. Still,
(28:18):
I could understand if Leo felt pressure to apologize, to
feign remorse so that he'd be granted parole. But for Leo,
this has never been an option to apologize for killing
his wife would mean he'd be lying, and that would
eliminate the possibility of real justice for Michelle, and that
(28:38):
he would never do not in nineteen eighty seven, and
not today, not even for the chance to be released tomorrow.
You know, this dangling tarret that's deformed me always, And
I want it. I want it really bad. I want
to go home. I want to take care of my
wife and kid. I want to I want to take
care of my life. I want to go out there
(28:58):
and be able to live a little bit, you know,
and make my mistakes and do my good deeds and
all of that stuff. And I want that really bad.
But I don't want it enough that I'm going to
sacrifice who I am as a person in the integrity
that I have. It's not because I'm a saint, it's
not because I'm some great guy. It's simply because I
(29:22):
did not do it. That's it. There's no other reason
behind refusing to do those things. I don't want to
make the Commission angry with me. I don't want to
fight against Bryan Hoss or Jerry Hill or Victoria Avant.
I don't want to drag them through any you know,
mud puddles or I have nothing to do with that.
(29:43):
I don't want anything to do with that. I just
cannot take the deal. I did not commit the crime.
I've seen you preach and I in your sermons, and
I've seen you talk about hope, and I'm just wondering,
do you have hope right now for this next parole hearing? Yeah,
I do. I have great hope. The narrative of my
(30:04):
life has been changed, and Michelle's truth is now very
widely known across the world, and knowing that they finally
know the truth is everything to me because that has
to be ninety percent of what my mission has always
been for thirty five years. Ninety percent of my fight
has been about getting justice for her. Really doesn't matter
(30:28):
who in the state acknowledges that or not. People are
acknowledging it, and that's justice for Michelle. Now now I
can rest with that. The other ten percent was hoping
that I could somehow get myself back home and take
care of the family that I'm in love with now
and you know, I'm still hopeful for that to happen.
But the main part of this goal that I have
(30:50):
is complete. People know, in the past I haven't had that,
so Yeah, I do have a lot of open I
don't know what the Commission knows. I really don't don't.
I don't know them. I not like I understand all that.
Victoria Avalon knows. She's been part of this case, and
so she knows my claim and she knows who I am,
(31:11):
and you know, I'm not sure what she thinks about it.
And even more cloudy is what the Commission thinks about it.
But they're all human beings, and so this is a
chance for all of them and all of them to
come out. We can all come out of this in
a really good place. We can all come out of
this as the head. And it will never come back
in their face. Victoria Avalon would never be embarrassed or
(31:35):
coming away saying this wasn't right. It'll never come back
to her because I didn't do it. I keep saying that.
It's just the fact. And I'm not after money, I'm
not after fame. I don't need an apology to me.
I'm not asking for any of that. All I'm asking
for is justice with Michelle and my freedom. And so, yeah,
I have a lot of hope because now the story
(31:56):
has been told, and it's been told in a very,
very big way, and it's been told very comprehensively. So
I have a lot of hope because I think I
think these people who have support me now are not
going to take no for an answer on this. And
if the answer becomes no, I think a lot of
people are gonna want to know why. If Leo's denied
(32:22):
parole in this his fourth attempt, so many of you
will want to know why. There's a level of scrutiny
now that the state cannot escape. I don't know if
there's really a way to make things right at this point.
In a few months, in June, it'll be thirty five
years since Leo's known a day of freedom. Many of
(32:43):
those years were spent in hopeless isolation, with Leo pleading
for someone, anyone to listen and believe that he's an
innocent man. Now there are people all around the world
who have heard his story and believe in his innocence,
people who are waiting and watching to see what happens next,
(33:06):
and that is what gives him hope. And please make
sure to thank all those supporters, because that means a lot.
I really I'm appreciative of the opportunity to tell them
thank you personally because that's everything for me. They totally
have changed my life. I cannot say enough. And hopefully
we come to a good end in the story and
(33:27):
what a celebration that will be. You know, it's time,
I mean, it just is. It's just time.
Host
Gilbert King
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