October 1, 2025 • 39 mins
Welcome to the start of Boysober October! To kick off the anniversary of Hope's flirtation with celibacy and decentering men, comedian Annabel Meschke joins the pod and reveals why she stopped being Hope's "sponsor." Plus, we hear from the listeners and their own boysober journeys!
Do you have a boysober story to share? We'd love to hear from you! Email us a voice note at boysoberpodcast@gmail.com, or leave a voicemail at (518) 83-SOBER. Please say your name before leaving your message, and don’t forget to include your phone number in case we want to follow up. By leaving a voicemail, you are giving Boysober permission and license to use some or all of your message in our show. But if you want to be anonymous, please state that in your call.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
And a man.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
The other week, my friend Annabella and I got in
the studio to do something kind of silly for a
very special occasion, and I guess we.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Should put our gloves on. Well, we can't be showing
your hands.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
No, that's actually that's really I mean, the hands are
so sexy.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
What are you gonna do with them? Where are they
gonna go?
Speaker 4 (00:25):
Job?
Speaker 5 (00:27):
That's disgusting. I should have a job. I don't have
the devil's work.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
If you're wondering what's going on. Annabella and I are
dressed as nuns today, and that is to kick off
the two year anniversary of my flirtation with celibacy, decenteringmen
and taking time for myself an occasion I'm calling boys
over October. I'm hopewitdard and welcome to boys over a
(00:59):
space where we're learning and on learning all the myths
we're taught about love and relationships. So welcome listeners to
boys Sober October. We're full force and to fall, and
(01:21):
for me, that's a time of slowing down and reflection.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
At least.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
It was two years ago when I first publicly announced
that I was going boysober as y'all know by now
that journey has gone in a lot of different directions,
but I'm happy it's landed me here on this podcast,
exploring the different ways to reflect on sex, desire, relationships,
and the ways we can heal from what we were
taught about all of those things. This month, we have
(01:48):
a lot in store. I'm going to be doing some
reflecting on my voiceover journey, maybe even confronting some truths
about myself that are spooky, but we're also celebrating you,
the listener, and the community that has formed around this concept.
To kick it off, I brought in my friend and
comedian Annabel Meshki.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
How are you feeling? How's today going?
Speaker 5 (02:09):
Today's going good. The gloves are changing my personality. I'm
so excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Annabel played a big role in My Boy Sober Journey.
When it was first starting out, Annabell tried to be
my voiceover sponsor. But then after I had sex with
my first clown, she said.
Speaker 5 (02:25):
I know, I tapped out. I tapped out. I wanted
to be involved so bad. I did have to tap
out for my own mental healthiness, but in like a normal,
totally awesome way.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
When Annabell quit being my sponsor. I completely understood. I
was a little bit chaotic at the time, and it
might have been hard to watch from the sidelines.
Speaker 5 (02:47):
Watching you sort of embark upon my journey was so interesting,
and I think, to varying degrees of me trying to
like help, I was like, no, no, no, you have to
sort of let someone maybe fuck a clown, maybe maybe
maybe fuck a cup.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Every time I come to you and I tell you,
like who I've fallen off the wagon for the first time,
that no, the second time I told you the shame
that entered my body.
Speaker 5 (03:09):
It was very funny. I'm I apologize for any part
I play the same as we're bestht stressed as nuns
talking about shame. I'm just kidding. I'm I had healing
to do. Your voice sober journey made me go, wait
a minute, Annabelle, look at the mirror, queen.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
I didn't bring Annabelle on to put her through any
more of my chaos. I brought her on to reflect
on this anniversary because we're such opposites in our history
with boys, relationships, love, and because I knew she would
help me seriously recommit to being boy. Sober and also
dress up as a nun with me, just to point
out how ridiculous this can all be. We're dressed as
(03:43):
nuns because we're both committed to celibacy or not sort
of or I am making the commitment you are trying to.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
I don't know, man, I'm in an error right now
of being alone. I'm a scholar of being alone, my
sort of background, my qualifications of boy sopriety, or like,
I've never been in a relationship despite sort of existing
for so long, which is no shame in that game. Obviously,
I live it. I live it every day.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Tell me where you are right now with your love life,
dating life, sex life.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
I do have like an eternal sort of optimism. I
very much believe like what's meant for me will not
pass me. But at the same time, on like some
dating apps that make me want to simply walk into
the sea. I witness so many of my single friends
putting themselves out there and they have the emotional band
with to do so, and I envy that. I just
don't think I'm strong enough at this time to like
go on a date that's like bad and I would
(04:33):
come home and it would make me make assumptions about
the world that I don't particularly agree with even I
don't know. I don't want to make it passive and
make it seem like it's like the universe's fault. But
it's like what I was instinctually going to say is
like it's just nuts, and then it happens to me like
and it's like, well, sex, this is just something that happens.
It's like a choice that both people make, the you know,
idealing and all this. But it's like, sometimes to me
when I'm feeling it, like oh, why is it so
(04:55):
hard for me and so easy for everyone else? That's
obviously like a sort of mentally ill thing.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
What I'm about to talk about, I love is the
stories we tell ourselves.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
I'll say that.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
And for me, stepping into celibacy was like it was
so intentional, whereas a lot of people feel like it
happens to them, right, and when you feel like it
happens to you, the story you can tell yourself can
be so harmful. And I don't know, like I wanted
to ask you, do you think celibacy teaches you anything
about yourself? But you kind of let it teach you
(05:27):
something that's a nasty lie.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
Well yeah, okay, so let me sort of rewind and
clarify as well. I've had chapters of celibacy, Like anyway
that you could not fuck, I've done that, And so
it's like by accident on purpose. Every time it's begun,
it's sort of been like a it's like a circumstance
turned into a conscious choice. And then there are moments
of like no one wants to fuck, like stupid, stupid,
(05:49):
But then like most of the time, it's like I
am so glad I'm not getting fucked badly by a
psycho total, which is amazing, amazing thing to not be
having happened.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Right going into October, what do you what's October.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Going to be for you? Are you wanting to make
sweet love to a man or no.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
Perhaps I mean with when there's a chill in the air,
you know you want to cuddle up with some of
the big with a big with a big werewolf. I
don't know, I like, don't, I don't know. Cuffing season approaches.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Things, are you trying to get calm?
Speaker 5 (06:20):
I don't, you know. It's like I'm never trying to
do anything. I hope, honestly, I hope someday a penis
falls into me and falls in love with me. I'm
just kidding. That was a strange way to phrase it.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Do you want it to choose you or do you
want to.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
Choose it mutual? Mutual? Sort of like, yeah, I don't know.
I think it's nice to have a little autumn kiss,
So I think that could be a goal. But then
sometimes you know, when you set a goal and then
you don't meet it, you.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Go you have to just maybe accept that risk. Yes,
that's that's what I want you to do, is accept
the risk, except the risk, you know what I'm saying,
And like.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
I do not engage with the possibility of that at all, Right,
I need to.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
At least do it, to tell the story and don't
take that ship personally. Yeah, because you know these men
in New York, like you could be fucking whoever you
have in your mind as the person that that never
happens to.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
It happens to me exactly that person.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
You know, Beyonce got cheated on honey. It could happen
to anybody.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Hello, literally, So remember that and correct me if I'm wrong.
Maybe you like think about men and tell yourself stories
about them when you're like alone in your house, but
I'm like out in the wild, and I find so
much comfort in their attention, and I haven't quite found
the same comfort and attention from anything else.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
And so that's why.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
It's I'm trying to let go of it, and that's
why I'm like re entering because like the hope and
the journey of going voiceover in the beginning was to yeah,
like release that validation and like find validation in myself.
Like when I go to a party, I'm anxious. When
I go out, I'm anxious. When I hang out with people,
I'm anxious, unless it's a person i'm like sleeping with interesting,
(07:57):
you know, And so that is like.
Speaker 5 (08:00):
For me with someone I'm literally like.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Right, well, and again it like it does, so go
back to like those like when our brain's were forming,
like the adolescence of it all.
Speaker 5 (08:09):
Did you feel like the way that you lost your
virginity is like something that informs the way that you
approach sex as as a whole.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I think.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
So we had a sex therapist on who had like
a really great conversation with us about that, and she
talked about shame in a really important way where she
was like don't wrestle your shame, like accept it, talk
to it and be like, it makes sense that I'm
a shame And so I think it was like really
informing me with a lot of shame for a long time.
(08:35):
But I'm sort of like looking at it differently now
to be like, yeah, I was like thirteen and I
was just like finding safety and the only way I
knew how because like my family was falling apart, and
like my boyfriend became the world to replace that.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
And so that's why, like you have a.
Speaker 5 (08:49):
Real history with finding refuge.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
It in a man, which is so it's generational for Yeah, no,
that is.
Speaker 5 (08:56):
Real, real, real, right. But also I remembered recently detail
about when I lost my virginity that was like, oh, no,
wonder I like this. He literally jokingly but seriously threw
a blanket over me and was like cover yourself. And
I was like, oh, this isn't gonna affect me for
the rest of my entire life. And it's like and
here we are, fast forward. I'm like, here we are.
I've been like a snuggy in the corner of the
(09:16):
room after like fucking somewhere. I'm like, just like you
want to so anyway, Yeah, I know, strange and I'm
just reflecting on that. Whatever.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Overshare just another story. You have to stop telling yourself.
You're beating the shit out of yourself, I know, for
no reason.
Speaker 5 (09:31):
You know, Yeah, it's crazy style. I don't know crazy,
it's crazy style. It's very like just like, yeah, my
history with it all is very like. But we're doing
bad luck, you're reverse the luck is turning. I'm very
much trying to internalize that as well as like in
a sort of woo woo way.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Welcome back to our Boice Over October kickoff. As I
said earlier, as a part of this month's festivities, we
want to celebrate our voice sober community, and that means you,
the listeners. To do that, I invited one of our
producers to help with this next section.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Emily is on the mic today. Emily introducers.
Speaker 6 (10:29):
I am Emily, producer of Boys Over, one of the producers,
one of the lovely producers. Yeah, Hope wrangler, Hope Wrangler,
conversation steerer and emotionally y r amateur therapist.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Of course, can we listen to the voicemail?
Speaker 4 (10:46):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (10:47):
Yes, So.
Speaker 6 (10:50):
What we have here in celebration of boy Sober October
and your two year anniversary.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, and the recommitment.
Speaker 5 (10:57):
Yes, we have been comments.
Speaker 6 (11:00):
May have noticed at the end of episodes we throw
out the phone number, tell people to call in, tell
their voice sober stories. There's a mixture of stories, questions, advice,
and we just want you to listen and give your
honest reactions and show the girls some love. Here is
a call from Grace.
Speaker 5 (11:17):
Oh great, amen.
Speaker 8 (11:19):
Hi, My name's Grace, and my boy sober story is
that I'm just beginning literally as of a week and
a half ago.
Speaker 9 (11:30):
I have been through a tumultuous two years, well really
four years of relationships that just we're toxic. For some reason,
have always ended up with kind of very traditionally masculine men,
even though I myself as a bisexual woman and as
(11:52):
just a very left leaning person to be le am
not a traditional woman.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Pause it she sounds so sad.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Baby.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Oh my god, Grace, Grace, I want to give you
a hug. Yeah, me too, Grace, You're okay.
Speaker 9 (12:09):
This has been a long time something I definitely need
to be boysover. But now my question is how do
I stick to it? Because it's not that I'm tempted.
I'm not on any dating apps whatever, But how do
I pick what I'm investing in for myself and stick
to it. I'm really great at starting things. I'm great
(12:31):
at starting all these different activities. I bought a Lego set.
I'm forever. I'm working two jobs to try and distract myself.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Girl. Oh yeah.
Speaker 9 (12:46):
My question is like, how do I know what to
stick with to help myself with my own healing? And
how do I stick with it?
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Is a long run, Lord, I hope she's doing okay
right now wherever she is.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
Proud of you, queen, So proud of you, and.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Congratulations on the week and a half, because it's easy
to not celebrate that, and so however long you've been
or how ever long you made it, congratulations.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
In terms of like planning, I think don't put tons
of pressure on yourself. It's helpful to set out with intention,
of course, but if it's a source of stress where
you're like, I don't know what to focus on this,
and that trust that you will learn what you need
to through the process, Like you don't need to set
out with those specific like the rubric because then I
guess that gives you more opportunity to fail in more
(13:28):
specific ways. And I feel like from what it sounds like,
it sounds like the planning is a source of stress.
So I feel like it could be a nice exercise
to radically accept the lessons that are destined for you
will come just through dedication to the process. Like I
think in terms of every time I've gone voiceover for
like years at a time, it's kind of just setting
(13:50):
out the action alone just to be like I'm not
going to prioritize, like I'm not going to go out
with that possibility in my brain because then I'll come
home disappointed. For example, it's like we don't even know
how much how often we're like maybe tonight is right,
I fall in love, which is an amazing way to
like approach life with like an open hearted you know whatever.
But when you are someone with a history of relationships
(14:13):
that set you back, you're welcoming energy that it might
not be so good. Well, that makes it sound like
it's your fault. Maybe nothing's your fault.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
But it's just like nothing changes if nothing changes, So
it's like, what can you what steps can you take
that are different, Like when you.
Speaker 5 (14:28):
The action alone of choosing not to like engage and
sort of shutting off that part of your brain. It's
an exercise enough because obviously that's like hard to do
for a lot of people, and so like focusing on
just that and yeah, buying a Lego set, You're you're
an amazing start My love.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Love the Lego set.
Speaker 5 (14:45):
You love a jigsaw puzzle.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Get in, just like get into a show, you will.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
Find you know, hopefully you'll have a lot more emotional
bandwidth to pollinate more of your friendships on like a
wider scale and build a source of support for yourself,
like a support network for yourself. Yeah, you know, I
think that's a big part of what I'm grateful for
never having been in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Also, I think go absolutely one day at a time
where I messed up the most I think is being
like I'm going to do this for a year and
having that timeline a timeline to me messes everything up
because you're just like, like you said, you've got this
expectation on you where it's like much better.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Just like one day moves slow and be proud.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Of yourself every day that passes, and then.
Speaker 5 (15:26):
Suddenly you'll probably wake up and it'll be like, oh,
my god, it's been like a month, you know, or like, oh,
it's been.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
A couple months.
Speaker 5 (15:31):
I mean, one day at a time. Money, that's where
it is.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Okay, next one, Yes, Okay.
Speaker 6 (15:36):
This person is anonymous, but maybe we'll call her Mary Mary,
Mother Mary, Mother Mary.
Speaker 10 (15:44):
I've been single for about a year and a half,
and I was in a pretty roller coaster relationship for
about three years before that, and I have really since
then learned how to stand up for myself and I
feel really great about where I am in life, and
(16:04):
I make sure I put myself in situations where I
feel happy, and I don't put myself in situations for
it doesn't feel good. But the point is I have
a friend who is in a really different space than me.
Right now. I've just really decentered men, and my friend
is living her best single life, which is so fucking great.
(16:28):
I feel like I should have no problem with that,
but for some reason, it just is triggering me, I guess,
and I'm trying to figure out why. It's just when
she gets really excited over boys attention, and I think
it's all these things that I used to be and
(16:48):
she's really excited, and I don't know how to react
around it because those things don't make me excited. They
sound like red flags to me. And it's like the
friction between where I'm at and where my friend is
that which is a place that is very opposite to me,
and it's a place I don't want to go, I guess,
but I don't know why I feel a way about it,
(17:09):
Like what the fuck? You can just do whatever he wants.
It shouldn't really affect me. So that's what I'm been
working through, And I would love any ideas you have,
because this is a new kind of experience for me.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Have you ever.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
Experienced such a such a joy like in that way,
or like just like an unnamed discomfort at like someone
engaging in a behavior you're specifically avoiding, Like that's kind
of I do understand. I've felt those feelings before as well.
You know, don't let a lack of understanding translate to
a lack of empathy, I guess, or like a lack
of patience. I think it's also a translation of the
way that you care for your friends, like you don't
(17:42):
want them to be putting themselves in situations you wouldn't
put yourself in, and then watching them do that with
abandoned and even joy is like if you let it
go unchecked, it can definitely turn into like a thought spiral.
So I feel like, just like I don't know an
acceptance that everyone's got different approaches to this kind of
stuff and when they come to you for help, obviously
to be there for them, but I can't prevent people
from learning the lessons the hard way sometimes.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
So true, what can you do with this friend that
like waters the seeds of the things you love to do?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
So, like what can y'all do together?
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Where like this part of her life is just sort
of like put on the shelf for a second, Like
can y'all go on a hike together and like be
like hey? Because I think what can get tough about
friends who maybe haven't decentered men? What I will say
I don't support like kicking them to the curb completely
because I think what happens when you kick someone to
the curb who hasn't quite decentered a man? It's like
(18:31):
then the only thing they have to center is.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Is it the male?
Speaker 5 (18:34):
Like you know what I mean with the male?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
So but I think maybe the conversation of like just
being like hey, when I spend time with you.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
I just want to be.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Really clear that, like I would love to talk about
things outside of this, So let's talk about ourselves, let's
talk about Let's watch a movie and talk about that,
Let's go to a museum and talk about that. Like
I want to celebrate you and know that I am
celebrating you and this era of your life, but also
like our time together, I want it to be a
little bit sacred because even for me, like I can
have conversations with my sisters or my family members or
(19:04):
people I love, and they can spend fifteen.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Thirty forty five minutes, even depending on.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
The situation, hell at hour, yeah, talking about a man
or talking about a date or talking about a kiss
or whatever, and just being like, I love you so much.
I want to talk to you about something outside of this,
though I think it's okay to say that. And then
if your friend is like upset with you for that,
that's a whole other conversation.
Speaker 5 (19:26):
If it makes you nervous to announce that, you can
just start asking about other things, you know what I mean, Deer, deer,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 6 (19:33):
Maybe she could give her a lego set and that
would spark a conversation.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
For our last cab, for.
Speaker 7 (19:40):
Our last Yeah, lego.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Next, we've got a couple.
Speaker 6 (19:59):
Now, like more stories of people's experiences, bad relationships, how
they've healed.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
I has to get commentary on this.
Speaker 6 (20:06):
First one is one who has some religious trauma.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Let me turn this one up.
Speaker 11 (20:12):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I grew up in a very Catholic family, Catholic church,
and so sex was always something that was very shameful.
I never really discussed in length, but growing up I
felt a lot of shame around sex in general, especially
because I realized from a young age that I was
gay or at least bisexuals. What I thought for a
(20:34):
long time and they literally probably wasn't until I was
seventeen or eighteen that I could even like stay that
out loud without crying. In high school, I was seeing
a Christian therapist. So I feel like a lot of
work that I was doing internally was like always being undone.
I left the Catholic church and joined a like youth
(20:57):
ministry organization called Young Life.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Oh my god, pose it.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
My my dad brought Young Life to my hometown. They
would have meetings in my living room. Yes, and my
mom was like very anti and me and my siblings
were not in young Life.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
So it was like, are really your dad was just
being like, these are kids that are better.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, So like what is it? How was it different
than ministry?
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Young life is in high school, it's like maybe college
kids or like community leaders or whatever will like lead
these sort of like youth group meetings, right, so like
after football games it will be like, let's go to
this gymnasium and have like very clean Christian fun. Right,
Let's have this dance party that's like very clean Christian
fun whatever. And so yeah, like that is young life.
(21:44):
When you're in high school, you're participating, and then when
you're in college you can sort of be a part
of the group that's facilitating for kids that are younger.
And there's like a young Life camp that happens over
the summer that people go to.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
It's like a very I'm just realizing.
Speaker 6 (21:57):
I went to Catholic middle and high school and we
definitely we just called it life Team, but it's the
same thing. And my best friend who later came out
as gay, was also in it, so shout out shout
out to her and shot.
Speaker 5 (22:10):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
In college when I really realized that, like I definitely
gay or bisexual or whatever, but I was still very Christian,
so it's very difficult to live in like this full.
Speaker 10 (22:22):
Reality, of course.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
And then I was outed against my will and kicked
out of your life.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Oh my god. Yeah, and now I can say it
young life, Okay, to keep going.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
So after that religion was done for me, I was
nineteen and I was like, I'm ready to fuck like
I've been a good Catholic girl my whole life. I
was like, it's time, but got on the apps forward.
I'm in a three year relationship with a straight man
because growing up I was very very much fueled by
(22:56):
male attention.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
Of course, but I'm finally in a reliefationship with a man,
and I'm like, wow, this is great, right news splash
foreshadowing It was.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
News.
Speaker 5 (23:13):
I love your storytelling prom her, Okay, keep going.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
It was not. So I'm in this relationship with this
very straight guy. We saw a lot. He called me
a bitch.
Speaker 10 (23:24):
I left him good.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Yeah. I moved back in with my family in Ohio,
and after that I realized I had never had a
hope face pause.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Having a hope fase in Ohio is amazing.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Moving back in with her family and realizing I've never
had a hope face.
Speaker 5 (23:44):
Come on, you said, there was one thing my family
teaches me, you need to get no but for real, Like,
that's so I love that course of action me too, Okay,
So immediately when.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I get back to Ohio, I am back on the app.
And when I tell you, from Timber of twenty twenty
three to probably September twenty twenty four, so almost a
full calendar year, I'm hooking up with so many people.
My body account went from two to twenty two. At
(24:20):
the beginning. It was so fun and it felt so
good to like try new things sexually be with other people.
At the time, for the first few months of that,
I was really only hooking up with men still because
that was familiar.
Speaker 10 (24:35):
It's what was comfortable, of course.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
And then in the summer of twenty twenty four, I
slept with the girl for the first time, and that
really like opened my world for me and it was
very validating to be like, oh, like I loved that
I really am gay because I dealt with a lot
of imposter syndrome about being gay, Like I've never been
with a girl, I've never dated a girl.
Speaker 10 (24:59):
How at I be gay.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
But after that, I continued to hook up with men,
because while looking up with a girl was amazing, it
was still scary, and I think I still felt like
I needed to seek male attention for whatever reason, and
I couldn't understand why. And then Hope appears on my
(25:22):
Instagram talking about voiceover and decentering men, and I was like,
oh my gosh, like that's what I need in my life.
So very after listening to the first episode, I realized
very similar similarly to Hope, I tried being voiceover and failed.
It was like an addiction, like trying to kick an addiction,
(25:45):
like I would try for a bouts at the time
to delete the apps and block people and stop talking
to them, and I just kept going back. Then, in
early fall of twenty twenty four, I made a career change.
I was doing lots of work and reading about like
loving yourself as a woman and loving who you are
like without needing men to do that, And then I
(26:08):
went on a date with my now partner, who is
non binary in a trans woman.
Speaker 10 (26:16):
Right when I.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Met them, everything was so different from anyone that I'd
ever been with. It just felt right, And I am
realizing now that I am just fully a lesbian, I think,
and just fully gay because you know, this is the
love of my life together for a long time. But
(26:41):
for whatever reason, if not, I truly do not see
myself going back. I feel like I also relate to
a lot of women who have come out as lesbian
or whatever later in life, and who have dated men
and been with men then the idea of heteronormativity and
sing like you need to be with men and have
(27:04):
a prince charming and have a husband because you're a girl.
And I feel like I very much. I felt that
growing up the way that I did and a very
religious upbringing. And I'm very proud of myself and how
far I've come with realizing who I am and being
with someone that I love, and I feel like I
(27:25):
am more myself than I ever have been. But I
feel like I can now officially ye that I am
permanently boy sober.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I love her.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
Wait, I'm so glad that a happy end.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Totally.
Speaker 7 (27:42):
I wasn't.
Speaker 12 (27:43):
We were scared.
Speaker 10 (27:44):
I was scared.
Speaker 5 (27:44):
I love that also speaks obviously just we're like, well,
something must go horribly well. In fact, actually it went
incredibly right. That's such a common theme of like meaning
the person for you, like it's different from anyone else,
like I guess when you know you. Damn No, that's amazing.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
And I think the moment she met her person was
when she was specifically not looking but she.
Speaker 6 (28:05):
Was on like a self improvement journey.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
She was doing the internal works. She was reading books.
Speaker 6 (28:10):
Yeah, of like searching, searching for herself, doing some introspection.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yes, totally.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
So she was being intentional but wow, not particularly looking.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
For her person and then found them.
Speaker 6 (28:22):
Yeah, okay, next, okay, next we have Drea Drea.
Speaker 11 (28:27):
Reya Hi voiceover.
Speaker 10 (28:30):
This is Durea.
Speaker 11 (28:32):
So I'm forty nine years old, about ready to hit
my fiftyeth. I am single, but I have always had boyfriends,
Okay always since I was five years old. I chased
boys on the playground to try and get them to
kiss me. And I think I got victored to that
they're in the head of like winning, it's like winning
the guy over. I think what I've learned is chasing people.
(28:58):
Although it might work temporary where I would get somebody
to become my boyfriend, I think I would just overgive
and overchase in that relationship. And I think I was
just happy to have anybody with a nice smile and
a pulse. I'm still growing from that. But I was
in a relationship for about a year with a guy
(29:19):
from the Czech Republic. I met him in Prague when
I was traveling, and he was wonderful in all the
ways I can't even tell you. It was the best
romance and that worked out because of a long distance issue.
There's a little bit of an age difference to but
that guy had me raise my standards because after being
(29:40):
with him, he I think he healed a lot of
my attachment.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Styles because I was going to say disorganized, because.
Speaker 11 (29:47):
He always made me feel heard and you know, always
kind of dik my feelings into account and I had
never really fully had that before in a lot of
my relationship ships. So and he's adorable, by the way,
just cute, oh my god, good looking. Getting treated like
(30:08):
that raise my standards. I realized this is how I
need to feel in a relationship.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Amazing.
Speaker 11 (30:14):
And I was listening to the podcast and I remember
one of you guys talking about just dating people that
you don't like me and I have so many stories
about that.
Speaker 5 (30:24):
I mean, that is such dating people who don't like
so many people are doing that.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
It's crazy.
Speaker 5 (30:32):
And you say and you do this, and you say
you do this. I mean, yeah, I guess if I
were dating, I probably would perhaps as well.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
There's like I think it's like could obviously be so
many reasons. Yeah, number one, you'd rather be with someone
than be alone, regardless of if you like him or not.
Sex is awesome with someone, and when you don't like them,
you can like ignore the fact that you don't like
them if you're having.
Speaker 5 (30:54):
Having good sex. Yeah, I hear, I hear that stuff
rocks you.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Get you ignore everything else.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
I think that's what I had to take sex off
of the table in my life because I was like,
I keep ending up in these situationships that are bound
by sex, because having sex is like you're not alone
for like ten minutes, that's at the end of the day,
the awesome thing about it.
Speaker 5 (31:15):
Anywhere from two to ten to three to even four minutes.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
You don't have to look at your phone. You're not
thinking about how broke you are. You're just like both
of your hands are being used to I want to
know more about her, Okay, keep going.
Speaker 11 (31:29):
I mean I need a ups guy. Oh I need.
A guy who crushed me. I put him on such
a pedestal and it took me me two or three
years to get over that I had breast cancer. When
we were together, he wasn't very supportive, and when I
asked him, he just flatly said he could not prop
me up.
Speaker 5 (31:48):
Hello, I'll kill this man. No, actually, okay, also sorry,
Just like a thing, if you're going through something like
that and your partner is anything less than so supportive,
it's so hard, obviously, as the person who's suffering chiefly
in that situation, to also be in charge of letting
that person go out of your life, you know what
I mean, And so I know the instinct when you're
(32:10):
going through stuff like that, like wow, is to keep
that person close to you because that's but god, how
hard it is making it difficult, that is, when you're
when you're sick, when you're Oh God, that's terrible. I'm
so sorry that happened.
Speaker 10 (32:21):
My life.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Keep going.
Speaker 11 (32:22):
It's been a lot of worker myself in therapy and
beyond and books, and right now I'm just focusing on
being single for the most part. I'm back on the app.
I'm back on an eight app. But the brilliant thing
is I do not I don't know what's going on
with me. Let's talk about therapists about this. But I
don't have that urge, that urge to hunt. I am
(32:45):
so tired of chasing and trying to get someone to
like me, improve how awesome I am. I'm done with that,
you know, And I just really would rather be pursued
and treasured, appreciated. And at this point, I'm not going
to settle for anybody that was just a nice smile
and a pulse. And I'm learning how to be intentional
(33:09):
and hang out with my friends and like the last podcast,
find things that bring me joy. So in the past
thor year, I have been really getting involved in community
theater and meeting new people and just making new friends.
So on Tuesdays now I jam with the fellow artists
here in town. We play guitar brings me so much joy.
So those are some things that I've done. Anyways, just
(33:31):
wanted to share my story a little bit, and I'm
going to shut the hoop up.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Got here a girl, come on, I'm obsessed with her.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
I love that she's forty nine years old and she's
like sounds so aware of like what she does that
makes her kind of her own worst enemy, you know,
Like I feel like so many people get to be
fifty fifty five sixty and they're like, oh, I like
because I'm older means I don't need to change anything. Yeah,
(34:02):
Like age does not totally equal wisdom, Yeah, it can.
But she sounds so wise to me, just because she
sounds like someone who's okay to admit she might need
to go at something.
Speaker 5 (34:14):
Like really to be to have the expression of the
lack of desire, like the ceasing of the desire to
hunt quote unquote you know, like that is so congratulations, honestly,
Like because there there is that constant sort of anxiety
humming underneath when you're like I should be I should
be looking around the room, I should be sitting up straight,
I should be doing this, I should be Like you know,
(34:35):
any moment could be the moment you meet the one.
It's like, while that is true, you don't have to
let that govern your every single move and every single breath,
and like releasing yourself from that is so relaxing in
certain ways. And like the longer you do that, I
feel like in my experience, it's like you can really
settle into like yourself, like, because you know, we don't
really realize a lot of the time how we're doing
(34:57):
backflips and m and molding ourselves to the people that
around especially the closer we are to them and.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
More intimate the relationship, you know, the more you can bend.
Speaker 5 (35:05):
Yeah, So like it's good that she met someone that's
set a standard. And then now is just like I'm
doing community theater and rock.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
I'm a faster. You have to go to the Czech Republic.
Speaker 5 (35:15):
Maybe I guess, maybe I guess, But then we'll be
heartbroken because of the long distance.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
And that's okay because we'll have learned. We'll take something
with us.
Speaker 6 (35:22):
I want Yeah to end, though. I wanted to say,
we've been doing this podcast for a couple of months now,
Hope and our classic question, what have all these conversations helped.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
You unlearn about me personally?
Speaker 2 (35:37):
You personally? And then it's you Annabel already.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
So like it's October now, Like we've been really working
on this since January. Where I was in January feels
so far away from where I am now, to be
totally frank, For the first six months of this year,
I was like in a deep state of limericks about
someone who was like unavailable to me. But then I
finally sort of popped that balloon for myself, and right
(36:02):
now I'm on like a sober, sober journey whatever, because
I was just like, I have actually been avoiding so
much for a long time. I think since like the
beginning of twenty twenty four, I've been trying to get
out of my own brain and body and emotions, and
I'm like deeply in that feeling era. What's something I've
had to unlearn is to like not be embarrassed about
(36:23):
how long it takes, because I think I have felt
like so much embarrassment about like, holy shit, I'm still
talking about this. Holy shit, I'm still doing this, Like
oh my god, I still haven't figured out how to
exist in the world in a way where I don't
need like a man in my ear, you know what
I'm saying, and.
Speaker 5 (36:39):
In my in my bleep, in my bleep, any bleep.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
So that's something I've had to unlearn is like it
might literally I could be fifty years old relearning this lesson.
Speaker 6 (36:52):
Yeah, it's a really meta answer that you unlearned. How
long it will take to unlearn.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
Learning about it never stops.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
There is no finish line. Okay, you're turning out.
Speaker 5 (37:06):
Okay, what I'm learned about love, I think that something
I've learned is that that is that love looks like
well one thing, you know what I mean. Like, I
think a lot of people see not having romantic relationships
as like a deficit. I'm like, I learned so much
and I witness so much, and I have so many
amazing experiences with my friends, and I don't know, unless
(37:26):
it's blown me out of the water, I'm fine. I
feel like I've got lots, like enough love in my life.
I don't feel like I'm like lacking because I don't
have a boyfriend or anything like that. In fact, most
of the time, I'm like, I don't need a parasite
smoking my weed and pissing me off.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Annabel, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you
for leading me talking.
Speaker 5 (37:44):
To microphone and meeting new people. And have a good day.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Okay boys. Oprah October is officially launched. I loved having
Annabel on, And if you want to see us stressed
as nuns, go over to our Instagram at voiceover dot
pod and give.
Speaker 12 (38:02):
Us some love.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
We loved listening to your voicemails. Please keep them coming.
We always want more calls, so please keep ringing us
at five one eight eight three seven six' two three
seven to tell us how your voiceover journeys are. Going
what are you struggling with any recent? Triumphs are you
also doing something This october to recommit to a personal?
Goal let us know again that number is five one
(38:26):
eight eight three seven six' two. Three seven, as always
thank y'all so much, for listening and we'll be back
next week with another.
Speaker 12 (38:34):
Wild episode.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Voiceover is a Production Of iHeart Podcasts I'm, Your. Host
hopewordard our executive Producers Are christina Everett And. Julie pinero
our supervising Producer Is. Emily meronoff our assistant Producer Is.
Logan palau Engineering By bahid fraser and mixing and Mastering By.
Abu zafar if you liked, this episode please tell a
(39:11):
friend and don't forget, to, rate review and subscribe To
boy sober On the, iHeartRadio App, apple podcasts and wherever
you get your.
Speaker 12 (39:19):
Favorite shows
And a man.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
The other week, my friend Annabella and I got in
the studio to do something kind of silly for a
very special occasion, and I guess we.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
Should put our gloves on. Well, we can't be showing
your hands.
Speaker 3 (00:18):
No, that's actually that's really I mean, the hands are
so sexy.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
What are you gonna do with them? Where are they
gonna go?
Speaker 4 (00:25):
Job?
Speaker 5 (00:27):
That's disgusting. I should have a job. I don't have
the devil's work.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
If you're wondering what's going on. Annabella and I are
dressed as nuns today, and that is to kick off
the two year anniversary of my flirtation with celibacy, decenteringmen
and taking time for myself an occasion I'm calling boys
over October. I'm hopewitdard and welcome to boys over a
(00:59):
space where we're learning and on learning all the myths
we're taught about love and relationships. So welcome listeners to
boys Sober October. We're full force and to fall, and
(01:21):
for me, that's a time of slowing down and reflection.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
At least.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
It was two years ago when I first publicly announced
that I was going boysober as y'all know by now
that journey has gone in a lot of different directions,
but I'm happy it's landed me here on this podcast,
exploring the different ways to reflect on sex, desire, relationships,
and the ways we can heal from what we were
taught about all of those things. This month, we have
(01:48):
a lot in store. I'm going to be doing some
reflecting on my voiceover journey, maybe even confronting some truths
about myself that are spooky, but we're also celebrating you,
the listener, and the community that has formed around this concept.
To kick it off, I brought in my friend and
comedian Annabel Meshki.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
How are you feeling? How's today going?
Speaker 5 (02:09):
Today's going good. The gloves are changing my personality. I'm
so excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Annabel played a big role in My Boy Sober Journey.
When it was first starting out, Annabell tried to be
my voiceover sponsor. But then after I had sex with
my first clown, she said.
Speaker 5 (02:25):
I know, I tapped out. I tapped out. I wanted
to be involved so bad. I did have to tap
out for my own mental healthiness, but in like a normal,
totally awesome way.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
When Annabell quit being my sponsor. I completely understood. I
was a little bit chaotic at the time, and it
might have been hard to watch from the sidelines.
Speaker 5 (02:47):
Watching you sort of embark upon my journey was so interesting,
and I think, to varying degrees of me trying to
like help, I was like, no, no, no, you have to
sort of let someone maybe fuck a clown, maybe maybe
maybe fuck a cup.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Every time I come to you and I tell you,
like who I've fallen off the wagon for the first time,
that no, the second time I told you the shame
that entered my body.
Speaker 5 (03:09):
It was very funny. I'm I apologize for any part
I play the same as we're bestht stressed as nuns
talking about shame. I'm just kidding. I'm I had healing
to do. Your voice sober journey made me go, wait
a minute, Annabelle, look at the mirror, queen.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
I didn't bring Annabelle on to put her through any
more of my chaos. I brought her on to reflect
on this anniversary because we're such opposites in our history
with boys, relationships, love, and because I knew she would
help me seriously recommit to being boy. Sober and also
dress up as a nun with me, just to point
out how ridiculous this can all be. We're dressed as
(03:43):
nuns because we're both committed to celibacy or not sort
of or I am making the commitment you are trying to.
Speaker 5 (03:51):
I don't know, man, I'm in an error right now
of being alone. I'm a scholar of being alone, my
sort of background, my qualifications of boy sopriety, or like,
I've never been in a relationship despite sort of existing
for so long, which is no shame in that game. Obviously,
I live it. I live it every day.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
Tell me where you are right now with your love life,
dating life, sex life.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
I do have like an eternal sort of optimism. I
very much believe like what's meant for me will not
pass me. But at the same time, on like some
dating apps that make me want to simply walk into
the sea. I witness so many of my single friends
putting themselves out there and they have the emotional band
with to do so, and I envy that. I just
don't think I'm strong enough at this time to like
go on a date that's like bad and I would
(04:33):
come home and it would make me make assumptions about
the world that I don't particularly agree with even I
don't know. I don't want to make it passive and
make it seem like it's like the universe's fault. But
it's like what I was instinctually going to say is
like it's just nuts, and then it happens to me like
and it's like, well, sex, this is just something that happens.
It's like a choice that both people make, the you know,
idealing and all this. But it's like, sometimes to me
when I'm feeling it, like oh, why is it so
(04:55):
hard for me and so easy for everyone else? That's
obviously like a sort of mentally ill thing.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
What I'm about to talk about, I love is the
stories we tell ourselves.
Speaker 5 (05:04):
I'll say that.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
And for me, stepping into celibacy was like it was
so intentional, whereas a lot of people feel like it
happens to them, right, and when you feel like it
happens to you, the story you can tell yourself can
be so harmful. And I don't know, like I wanted
to ask you, do you think celibacy teaches you anything
about yourself? But you kind of let it teach you
(05:27):
something that's a nasty lie.
Speaker 5 (05:28):
Well yeah, okay, so let me sort of rewind and
clarify as well. I've had chapters of celibacy, Like anyway
that you could not fuck, I've done that, And so
it's like by accident on purpose. Every time it's begun,
it's sort of been like a it's like a circumstance
turned into a conscious choice. And then there are moments
of like no one wants to fuck, like stupid, stupid,
(05:49):
But then like most of the time, it's like I
am so glad I'm not getting fucked badly by a
psycho total, which is amazing, amazing thing to not be
having happened.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Right going into October, what do you what's October.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Going to be for you? Are you wanting to make
sweet love to a man or no.
Speaker 5 (06:06):
Perhaps I mean with when there's a chill in the air,
you know you want to cuddle up with some of
the big with a big with a big werewolf. I
don't know, I like, don't, I don't know. Cuffing season approaches.
Speaker 2 (06:18):
Things, are you trying to get calm?
Speaker 5 (06:20):
I don't, you know. It's like I'm never trying to
do anything. I hope, honestly, I hope someday a penis
falls into me and falls in love with me. I'm
just kidding. That was a strange way to phrase it.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
Do you want it to choose you or do you
want to.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
Choose it mutual? Mutual? Sort of like, yeah, I don't know.
I think it's nice to have a little autumn kiss,
So I think that could be a goal. But then
sometimes you know, when you set a goal and then
you don't meet it, you.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Go you have to just maybe accept that risk. Yes,
that's that's what I want you to do, is accept
the risk, except the risk, you know what I'm saying,
And like.
Speaker 5 (06:51):
I do not engage with the possibility of that at all, Right,
I need to.
Speaker 3 (06:55):
At least do it, to tell the story and don't
take that ship personally. Yeah, because you know these men
in New York, like you could be fucking whoever you
have in your mind as the person that that never
happens to.
Speaker 2 (07:07):
It happens to me exactly that person.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
You know, Beyonce got cheated on honey. It could happen
to anybody.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Hello, literally, So remember that and correct me if I'm wrong.
Maybe you like think about men and tell yourself stories
about them when you're like alone in your house, but
I'm like out in the wild, and I find so
much comfort in their attention, and I haven't quite found
the same comfort and attention from anything else.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
And so that's why.
Speaker 3 (07:35):
It's I'm trying to let go of it, and that's
why I'm like re entering because like the hope and
the journey of going voiceover in the beginning was to yeah,
like release that validation and like find validation in myself.
Like when I go to a party, I'm anxious. When
I go out, I'm anxious. When I hang out with people,
I'm anxious, unless it's a person i'm like sleeping with interesting,
(07:57):
you know, And so that is like.
Speaker 5 (08:00):
For me with someone I'm literally like.
Speaker 3 (08:02):
Right, well, and again it like it does, so go
back to like those like when our brain's were forming,
like the adolescence of it all.
Speaker 5 (08:09):
Did you feel like the way that you lost your
virginity is like something that informs the way that you
approach sex as as a whole.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I think.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
So we had a sex therapist on who had like
a really great conversation with us about that, and she
talked about shame in a really important way where she
was like don't wrestle your shame, like accept it, talk
to it and be like, it makes sense that I'm
a shame And so I think it was like really
informing me with a lot of shame for a long time.
(08:35):
But I'm sort of like looking at it differently now
to be like, yeah, I was like thirteen and I
was just like finding safety and the only way I
knew how because like my family was falling apart, and
like my boyfriend became the world to replace that.
Speaker 2 (08:48):
And so that's why, like you have a.
Speaker 5 (08:49):
Real history with finding refuge.
Speaker 3 (08:52):
It in a man, which is so it's generational for Yeah, no,
that is.
Speaker 5 (08:56):
Real, real, real, right. But also I remembered recently detail
about when I lost my virginity that was like, oh, no,
wonder I like this. He literally jokingly but seriously threw
a blanket over me and was like cover yourself. And
I was like, oh, this isn't gonna affect me for
the rest of my entire life. And it's like and
here we are, fast forward. I'm like, here we are.
I've been like a snuggy in the corner of the
(09:16):
room after like fucking somewhere. I'm like, just like you
want to so anyway, Yeah, I know, strange and I'm
just reflecting on that. Whatever.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Overshare just another story. You have to stop telling yourself.
You're beating the shit out of yourself, I know, for
no reason.
Speaker 5 (09:31):
You know, Yeah, it's crazy style. I don't know crazy,
it's crazy style. It's very like just like, yeah, my
history with it all is very like. But we're doing
bad luck, you're reverse the luck is turning. I'm very
much trying to internalize that as well as like in
a sort of woo woo way.
Speaker 3 (10:10):
Welcome back to our Boice Over October kickoff. As I
said earlier, as a part of this month's festivities, we
want to celebrate our voice sober community, and that means you,
the listeners. To do that, I invited one of our
producers to help with this next section.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
Emily is on the mic today. Emily introducers.
Speaker 6 (10:29):
I am Emily, producer of Boys Over, one of the producers,
one of the lovely producers. Yeah, Hope wrangler, Hope Wrangler,
conversation steerer and emotionally y r amateur therapist.
Speaker 2 (10:44):
Of course, can we listen to the voicemail?
Speaker 4 (10:46):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (10:47):
Yes, So.
Speaker 6 (10:50):
What we have here in celebration of boy Sober October
and your two year anniversary.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Yeah, and the recommitment.
Speaker 5 (10:57):
Yes, we have been comments.
Speaker 6 (11:00):
May have noticed at the end of episodes we throw
out the phone number, tell people to call in, tell
their voice sober stories. There's a mixture of stories, questions, advice,
and we just want you to listen and give your
honest reactions and show the girls some love. Here is
a call from Grace.
Speaker 5 (11:17):
Oh great, amen.
Speaker 8 (11:19):
Hi, My name's Grace, and my boy sober story is
that I'm just beginning literally as of a week and
a half ago.
Speaker 9 (11:30):
I have been through a tumultuous two years, well really
four years of relationships that just we're toxic. For some reason,
have always ended up with kind of very traditionally masculine men,
even though I myself as a bisexual woman and as
(11:52):
just a very left leaning person to be le am
not a traditional woman.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
Pause it she sounds so sad.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Baby.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Oh my god, Grace, Grace, I want to give you
a hug. Yeah, me too, Grace, You're okay.
Speaker 9 (12:09):
This has been a long time something I definitely need
to be boysover. But now my question is how do
I stick to it? Because it's not that I'm tempted.
I'm not on any dating apps whatever, But how do
I pick what I'm investing in for myself and stick
to it. I'm really great at starting things. I'm great
(12:31):
at starting all these different activities. I bought a Lego set.
I'm forever. I'm working two jobs to try and distract myself.
Speaker 1 (12:45):
Girl. Oh yeah.
Speaker 9 (12:46):
My question is like, how do I know what to
stick with to help myself with my own healing? And
how do I stick with it?
Speaker 3 (12:53):
Is a long run, Lord, I hope she's doing okay
right now wherever she is.
Speaker 5 (12:56):
Proud of you, queen, So proud of you, and.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
Congratulations on the week and a half, because it's easy
to not celebrate that, and so however long you've been
or how ever long you made it, congratulations.
Speaker 5 (13:07):
In terms of like planning, I think don't put tons
of pressure on yourself. It's helpful to set out with intention,
of course, but if it's a source of stress where
you're like, I don't know what to focus on this,
and that trust that you will learn what you need
to through the process, Like you don't need to set
out with those specific like the rubric because then I
guess that gives you more opportunity to fail in more
(13:28):
specific ways. And I feel like from what it sounds like,
it sounds like the planning is a source of stress.
So I feel like it could be a nice exercise
to radically accept the lessons that are destined for you
will come just through dedication to the process. Like I
think in terms of every time I've gone voiceover for
like years at a time, it's kind of just setting
(13:50):
out the action alone just to be like I'm not
going to prioritize, like I'm not going to go out
with that possibility in my brain because then I'll come
home disappointed. For example, it's like we don't even know
how much how often we're like maybe tonight is right,
I fall in love, which is an amazing way to
like approach life with like an open hearted you know whatever.
But when you are someone with a history of relationships
(14:13):
that set you back, you're welcoming energy that it might
not be so good. Well, that makes it sound like
it's your fault. Maybe nothing's your fault.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
But it's just like nothing changes if nothing changes, So
it's like, what can you what steps can you take
that are different, Like when you.
Speaker 5 (14:28):
The action alone of choosing not to like engage and
sort of shutting off that part of your brain. It's
an exercise enough because obviously that's like hard to do
for a lot of people, and so like focusing on
just that and yeah, buying a Lego set, You're you're
an amazing start My love.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
Love the Lego set.
Speaker 5 (14:45):
You love a jigsaw puzzle.
Speaker 2 (14:46):
Get in, just like get into a show, you will.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
Find you know, hopefully you'll have a lot more emotional
bandwidth to pollinate more of your friendships on like a
wider scale and build a source of support for yourself,
like a support network for yourself. Yeah, you know, I
think that's a big part of what I'm grateful for
never having been in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (15:04):
Also, I think go absolutely one day at a time
where I messed up the most I think is being
like I'm going to do this for a year and
having that timeline a timeline to me messes everything up
because you're just like, like you said, you've got this
expectation on you where it's like much better.
Speaker 2 (15:22):
Just like one day moves slow and be proud.
Speaker 3 (15:24):
Of yourself every day that passes, and then.
Speaker 5 (15:26):
Suddenly you'll probably wake up and it'll be like, oh,
my god, it's been like a month, you know, or like, oh,
it's been.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
A couple months.
Speaker 5 (15:31):
I mean, one day at a time. Money, that's where
it is.
Speaker 2 (15:34):
Okay, next one, Yes, Okay.
Speaker 6 (15:36):
This person is anonymous, but maybe we'll call her Mary Mary,
Mother Mary, Mother Mary.
Speaker 10 (15:44):
I've been single for about a year and a half,
and I was in a pretty roller coaster relationship for
about three years before that, and I have really since
then learned how to stand up for myself and I
feel really great about where I am in life, and
(16:04):
I make sure I put myself in situations where I
feel happy, and I don't put myself in situations for
it doesn't feel good. But the point is I have
a friend who is in a really different space than me.
Right now. I've just really decentered men, and my friend
is living her best single life, which is so fucking great.
(16:28):
I feel like I should have no problem with that,
but for some reason, it just is triggering me, I guess,
and I'm trying to figure out why. It's just when
she gets really excited over boys attention, and I think
it's all these things that I used to be and
(16:48):
she's really excited, and I don't know how to react
around it because those things don't make me excited. They
sound like red flags to me. And it's like the
friction between where I'm at and where my friend is
that which is a place that is very opposite to me,
and it's a place I don't want to go, I guess,
but I don't know why I feel a way about it,
(17:09):
Like what the fuck? You can just do whatever he wants.
It shouldn't really affect me. So that's what I'm been
working through, And I would love any ideas you have,
because this is a new kind of experience for me.
Speaker 2 (17:21):
Have you ever.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
Experienced such a such a joy like in that way,
or like just like an unnamed discomfort at like someone
engaging in a behavior you're specifically avoiding, Like that's kind
of I do understand. I've felt those feelings before as well.
You know, don't let a lack of understanding translate to
a lack of empathy, I guess, or like a lack
of patience. I think it's also a translation of the
way that you care for your friends, like you don't
(17:42):
want them to be putting themselves in situations you wouldn't
put yourself in, and then watching them do that with
abandoned and even joy is like if you let it
go unchecked, it can definitely turn into like a thought spiral.
So I feel like, just like I don't know an
acceptance that everyone's got different approaches to this kind of
stuff and when they come to you for help, obviously
to be there for them, but I can't prevent people
from learning the lessons the hard way sometimes.
Speaker 3 (18:02):
So true, what can you do with this friend that
like waters the seeds of the things you love to do?
Speaker 2 (18:09):
So, like what can y'all do together?
Speaker 3 (18:10):
Where like this part of her life is just sort
of like put on the shelf for a second, Like
can y'all go on a hike together and like be
like hey? Because I think what can get tough about
friends who maybe haven't decentered men? What I will say
I don't support like kicking them to the curb completely
because I think what happens when you kick someone to
the curb who hasn't quite decentered a man? It's like
(18:31):
then the only thing they have to center is.
Speaker 2 (18:33):
Is it the male?
Speaker 5 (18:34):
Like you know what I mean with the male?
Speaker 3 (18:36):
So but I think maybe the conversation of like just
being like hey, when I spend time with you.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
I just want to be.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Really clear that, like I would love to talk about
things outside of this, So let's talk about ourselves, let's
talk about Let's watch a movie and talk about that,
Let's go to a museum and talk about that. Like
I want to celebrate you and know that I am
celebrating you and this era of your life, but also
like our time together, I want it to be a
little bit sacred because even for me, like I can
have conversations with my sisters or my family members or
(19:04):
people I love, and they can spend fifteen.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
Thirty forty five minutes, even depending on.
Speaker 3 (19:09):
The situation, hell at hour, yeah, talking about a man
or talking about a date or talking about a kiss
or whatever, and just being like, I love you so much.
I want to talk to you about something outside of this,
though I think it's okay to say that. And then
if your friend is like upset with you for that,
that's a whole other conversation.
Speaker 5 (19:26):
If it makes you nervous to announce that, you can
just start asking about other things, you know what I mean, Deer, deer,
you know what I mean.
Speaker 6 (19:33):
Maybe she could give her a lego set and that
would spark a conversation.
Speaker 5 (19:38):
For our last cab, for.
Speaker 7 (19:40):
Our last Yeah, lego.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Next, we've got a couple.
Speaker 6 (19:59):
Now, like more stories of people's experiences, bad relationships, how
they've healed.
Speaker 3 (20:03):
I has to get commentary on this.
Speaker 6 (20:06):
First one is one who has some religious trauma.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Let me turn this one up.
Speaker 11 (20:12):
Hi.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
I grew up in a very Catholic family, Catholic church,
and so sex was always something that was very shameful.
I never really discussed in length, but growing up I
felt a lot of shame around sex in general, especially
because I realized from a young age that I was
gay or at least bisexuals. What I thought for a
(20:34):
long time and they literally probably wasn't until I was
seventeen or eighteen that I could even like stay that
out loud without crying. In high school, I was seeing
a Christian therapist. So I feel like a lot of
work that I was doing internally was like always being undone.
I left the Catholic church and joined a like youth
(20:57):
ministry organization called Young Life.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Oh my god, pose it.
Speaker 3 (21:02):
My my dad brought Young Life to my hometown. They
would have meetings in my living room. Yes, and my
mom was like very anti and me and my siblings
were not in young Life.
Speaker 5 (21:16):
So it was like, are really your dad was just
being like, these are kids that are better.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Yeah, So like what is it? How was it different
than ministry?
Speaker 3 (21:23):
Young life is in high school, it's like maybe college
kids or like community leaders or whatever will like lead
these sort of like youth group meetings, right, so like
after football games it will be like, let's go to
this gymnasium and have like very clean Christian fun. Right,
Let's have this dance party that's like very clean Christian
fun whatever. And so yeah, like that is young life.
(21:44):
When you're in high school, you're participating, and then when
you're in college you can sort of be a part
of the group that's facilitating for kids that are younger.
And there's like a young Life camp that happens over
the summer that people go to.
Speaker 2 (21:55):
It's like a very I'm just realizing.
Speaker 6 (21:57):
I went to Catholic middle and high school and we
definitely we just called it life Team, but it's the
same thing. And my best friend who later came out
as gay, was also in it, so shout out shout
out to her and shot.
Speaker 5 (22:10):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
In college when I really realized that, like I definitely
gay or bisexual or whatever, but I was still very Christian,
so it's very difficult to live in like this full.
Speaker 10 (22:22):
Reality, of course.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
And then I was outed against my will and kicked
out of your life.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Oh my god. Yeah, and now I can say it
young life, Okay, to keep going.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
So after that religion was done for me, I was
nineteen and I was like, I'm ready to fuck like
I've been a good Catholic girl my whole life. I
was like, it's time, but got on the apps forward.
I'm in a three year relationship with a straight man
because growing up I was very very much fueled by
(22:56):
male attention.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
Of course, but I'm finally in a reliefationship with a man,
and I'm like, wow, this is great, right news splash
foreshadowing It was.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
News.
Speaker 5 (23:13):
I love your storytelling prom her, Okay, keep going.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
It was not. So I'm in this relationship with this
very straight guy. We saw a lot. He called me
a bitch.
Speaker 10 (23:24):
I left him good.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
Yeah. I moved back in with my family in Ohio,
and after that I realized I had never had a
hope face pause.
Speaker 5 (23:37):
Having a hope fase in Ohio is amazing.
Speaker 3 (23:41):
Moving back in with her family and realizing I've never
had a hope face.
Speaker 5 (23:44):
Come on, you said, there was one thing my family
teaches me, you need to get no but for real, Like,
that's so I love that course of action me too, Okay,
So immediately when.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I get back to Ohio, I am back on the app.
And when I tell you, from Timber of twenty twenty
three to probably September twenty twenty four, so almost a
full calendar year, I'm hooking up with so many people.
My body account went from two to twenty two. At
(24:20):
the beginning. It was so fun and it felt so
good to like try new things sexually be with other people.
At the time, for the first few months of that,
I was really only hooking up with men still because
that was familiar.
Speaker 10 (24:35):
It's what was comfortable, of course.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
And then in the summer of twenty twenty four, I
slept with the girl for the first time, and that
really like opened my world for me and it was
very validating to be like, oh, like I loved that
I really am gay because I dealt with a lot
of imposter syndrome about being gay, Like I've never been
with a girl, I've never dated a girl.
Speaker 10 (24:59):
How at I be gay.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
But after that, I continued to hook up with men,
because while looking up with a girl was amazing, it
was still scary, and I think I still felt like
I needed to seek male attention for whatever reason, and
I couldn't understand why. And then Hope appears on my
(25:22):
Instagram talking about voiceover and decentering men, and I was like,
oh my gosh, like that's what I need in my life.
So very after listening to the first episode, I realized
very similar similarly to Hope, I tried being voiceover and failed.
It was like an addiction, like trying to kick an addiction,
(25:45):
like I would try for a bouts at the time
to delete the apps and block people and stop talking
to them, and I just kept going back. Then, in
early fall of twenty twenty four, I made a career change.
I was doing lots of work and reading about like
loving yourself as a woman and loving who you are
like without needing men to do that, And then I
(26:08):
went on a date with my now partner, who is
non binary in a trans woman.
Speaker 10 (26:16):
Right when I.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
Met them, everything was so different from anyone that I'd
ever been with. It just felt right, And I am
realizing now that I am just fully a lesbian, I think,
and just fully gay because you know, this is the
love of my life together for a long time. But
(26:41):
for whatever reason, if not, I truly do not see
myself going back. I feel like I also relate to
a lot of women who have come out as lesbian
or whatever later in life, and who have dated men
and been with men then the idea of heteronormativity and
sing like you need to be with men and have
(27:04):
a prince charming and have a husband because you're a girl.
And I feel like I very much. I felt that
growing up the way that I did and a very
religious upbringing. And I'm very proud of myself and how
far I've come with realizing who I am and being
with someone that I love, and I feel like I
(27:25):
am more myself than I ever have been. But I
feel like I can now officially ye that I am
permanently boy sober.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
I love her.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
Wait, I'm so glad that a happy end.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Totally.
Speaker 7 (27:42):
I wasn't.
Speaker 12 (27:43):
We were scared.
Speaker 10 (27:44):
I was scared.
Speaker 5 (27:44):
I love that also speaks obviously just we're like, well,
something must go horribly well. In fact, actually it went
incredibly right. That's such a common theme of like meaning
the person for you, like it's different from anyone else,
like I guess when you know you. Damn No, that's amazing.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
And I think the moment she met her person was
when she was specifically not looking but she.
Speaker 6 (28:05):
Was on like a self improvement journey.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
She was doing the internal works. She was reading books.
Speaker 6 (28:10):
Yeah, of like searching, searching for herself, doing some introspection.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Yes, totally.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
So she was being intentional but wow, not particularly looking.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
For her person and then found them.
Speaker 6 (28:22):
Yeah, okay, next, okay, next we have Drea Drea.
Speaker 11 (28:27):
Reya Hi voiceover.
Speaker 10 (28:30):
This is Durea.
Speaker 11 (28:32):
So I'm forty nine years old, about ready to hit
my fiftyeth. I am single, but I have always had boyfriends,
Okay always since I was five years old. I chased
boys on the playground to try and get them to
kiss me. And I think I got victored to that
they're in the head of like winning, it's like winning
the guy over. I think what I've learned is chasing people.
(28:58):
Although it might work temporary where I would get somebody
to become my boyfriend, I think I would just overgive
and overchase in that relationship. And I think I was
just happy to have anybody with a nice smile and
a pulse. I'm still growing from that. But I was
in a relationship for about a year with a guy
(29:19):
from the Czech Republic. I met him in Prague when
I was traveling, and he was wonderful in all the
ways I can't even tell you. It was the best
romance and that worked out because of a long distance issue.
There's a little bit of an age difference to but
that guy had me raise my standards because after being
(29:40):
with him, he I think he healed a lot of
my attachment.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Styles because I was going to say disorganized, because.
Speaker 11 (29:47):
He always made me feel heard and you know, always
kind of dik my feelings into account and I had
never really fully had that before in a lot of
my relationship ships. So and he's adorable, by the way,
just cute, oh my god, good looking. Getting treated like
(30:08):
that raise my standards. I realized this is how I
need to feel in a relationship.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
Amazing.
Speaker 11 (30:14):
And I was listening to the podcast and I remember
one of you guys talking about just dating people that
you don't like me and I have so many stories
about that.
Speaker 5 (30:24):
I mean, that is such dating people who don't like
so many people are doing that.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
It's crazy.
Speaker 5 (30:32):
And you say and you do this, and you say
you do this. I mean, yeah, I guess if I
were dating, I probably would perhaps as well.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
There's like I think it's like could obviously be so
many reasons. Yeah, number one, you'd rather be with someone
than be alone, regardless of if you like him or not.
Sex is awesome with someone, and when you don't like them,
you can like ignore the fact that you don't like
them if you're having.
Speaker 5 (30:54):
Having good sex. Yeah, I hear, I hear that stuff
rocks you.
Speaker 2 (30:57):
Get you ignore everything else.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
I think that's what I had to take sex off
of the table in my life because I was like,
I keep ending up in these situationships that are bound
by sex, because having sex is like you're not alone
for like ten minutes, that's at the end of the day,
the awesome thing about it.
Speaker 5 (31:15):
Anywhere from two to ten to three to even four minutes.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
You don't have to look at your phone. You're not
thinking about how broke you are. You're just like both
of your hands are being used to I want to
know more about her, Okay, keep going.
Speaker 11 (31:29):
I mean I need a ups guy. Oh I need.
A guy who crushed me. I put him on such
a pedestal and it took me me two or three
years to get over that I had breast cancer. When
we were together, he wasn't very supportive, and when I
asked him, he just flatly said he could not prop
me up.
Speaker 5 (31:48):
Hello, I'll kill this man. No, actually, okay, also sorry,
Just like a thing, if you're going through something like
that and your partner is anything less than so supportive,
it's so hard, obviously, as the person who's suffering chiefly
in that situation, to also be in charge of letting
that person go out of your life, you know what
I mean, And so I know the instinct when you're
(32:10):
going through stuff like that, like wow, is to keep
that person close to you because that's but god, how
hard it is making it difficult, that is, when you're
when you're sick, when you're Oh God, that's terrible. I'm
so sorry that happened.
Speaker 10 (32:21):
My life.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Keep going.
Speaker 11 (32:22):
It's been a lot of worker myself in therapy and
beyond and books, and right now I'm just focusing on
being single for the most part. I'm back on the app.
I'm back on an eight app. But the brilliant thing
is I do not I don't know what's going on
with me. Let's talk about therapists about this. But I
don't have that urge, that urge to hunt. I am
(32:45):
so tired of chasing and trying to get someone to
like me, improve how awesome I am. I'm done with that,
you know, And I just really would rather be pursued
and treasured, appreciated. And at this point, I'm not going
to settle for anybody that was just a nice smile
and a pulse. And I'm learning how to be intentional
(33:09):
and hang out with my friends and like the last podcast,
find things that bring me joy. So in the past
thor year, I have been really getting involved in community
theater and meeting new people and just making new friends.
So on Tuesdays now I jam with the fellow artists
here in town. We play guitar brings me so much joy.
So those are some things that I've done. Anyways, just
(33:31):
wanted to share my story a little bit, and I'm
going to shut the hoop up.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Got here a girl, come on, I'm obsessed with her.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
I love that she's forty nine years old and she's
like sounds so aware of like what she does that
makes her kind of her own worst enemy, you know,
Like I feel like so many people get to be
fifty fifty five sixty and they're like, oh, I like
because I'm older means I don't need to change anything. Yeah,
(34:02):
Like age does not totally equal wisdom, Yeah, it can.
But she sounds so wise to me, just because she
sounds like someone who's okay to admit she might need
to go at something.
Speaker 5 (34:14):
Like really to be to have the expression of the
lack of desire, like the ceasing of the desire to
hunt quote unquote you know, like that is so congratulations, honestly,
Like because there there is that constant sort of anxiety
humming underneath when you're like I should be I should
be looking around the room, I should be sitting up straight,
I should be doing this, I should be Like you know,
(34:35):
any moment could be the moment you meet the one.
It's like, while that is true, you don't have to
let that govern your every single move and every single breath,
and like releasing yourself from that is so relaxing in
certain ways. And like the longer you do that, I
feel like in my experience, it's like you can really
settle into like yourself, like, because you know, we don't
really realize a lot of the time how we're doing
(34:57):
backflips and m and molding ourselves to the people that
around especially the closer we are to them and.
Speaker 2 (35:02):
More intimate the relationship, you know, the more you can bend.
Speaker 5 (35:05):
Yeah, So like it's good that she met someone that's
set a standard. And then now is just like I'm
doing community theater and rock.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
I'm a faster. You have to go to the Czech Republic.
Speaker 5 (35:15):
Maybe I guess, maybe I guess, But then we'll be
heartbroken because of the long distance.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
And that's okay because we'll have learned. We'll take something
with us.
Speaker 6 (35:22):
I want Yeah to end, though. I wanted to say,
we've been doing this podcast for a couple of months now,
Hope and our classic question, what have all these conversations helped.
Speaker 3 (35:35):
You unlearn about me personally?
Speaker 2 (35:37):
You personally? And then it's you Annabel already.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
So like it's October now, Like we've been really working
on this since January. Where I was in January feels
so far away from where I am now, to be
totally frank, For the first six months of this year,
I was like in a deep state of limericks about
someone who was like unavailable to me. But then I
finally sort of popped that balloon for myself, and right
(36:02):
now I'm on like a sober, sober journey whatever, because
I was just like, I have actually been avoiding so
much for a long time. I think since like the
beginning of twenty twenty four, I've been trying to get
out of my own brain and body and emotions, and
I'm like deeply in that feeling era. What's something I've
had to unlearn is to like not be embarrassed about
(36:23):
how long it takes, because I think I have felt
like so much embarrassment about like, holy shit, I'm still
talking about this. Holy shit, I'm still doing this, Like
oh my god, I still haven't figured out how to
exist in the world in a way where I don't
need like a man in my ear, you know what
I'm saying, and.
Speaker 5 (36:39):
In my in my bleep, in my bleep, any bleep.
Speaker 3 (36:44):
So that's something I've had to unlearn is like it
might literally I could be fifty years old relearning this lesson.
Speaker 6 (36:52):
Yeah, it's a really meta answer that you unlearned. How
long it will take to unlearn.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
Learning about it never stops.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
There is no finish line. Okay, you're turning out.
Speaker 5 (37:06):
Okay, what I'm learned about love, I think that something
I've learned is that that is that love looks like
well one thing, you know what I mean. Like, I
think a lot of people see not having romantic relationships
as like a deficit. I'm like, I learned so much
and I witness so much, and I have so many
amazing experiences with my friends, and I don't know, unless
(37:26):
it's blown me out of the water, I'm fine. I
feel like I've got lots, like enough love in my life.
I don't feel like I'm like lacking because I don't
have a boyfriend or anything like that. In fact, most
of the time, I'm like, I don't need a parasite
smoking my weed and pissing me off.
Speaker 2 (37:41):
Annabel, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you
for leading me talking.
Speaker 5 (37:44):
To microphone and meeting new people. And have a good day.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Okay boys. Oprah October is officially launched. I loved having
Annabel on, And if you want to see us stressed
as nuns, go over to our Instagram at voiceover dot
pod and give.
Speaker 12 (38:02):
Us some love.
Speaker 3 (38:03):
We loved listening to your voicemails. Please keep them coming.
We always want more calls, so please keep ringing us
at five one eight eight three seven six' two three
seven to tell us how your voiceover journeys are. Going
what are you struggling with any recent? Triumphs are you
also doing something This october to recommit to a personal?
Goal let us know again that number is five one
(38:26):
eight eight three seven six' two. Three seven, as always
thank y'all so much, for listening and we'll be back
next week with another.
Speaker 12 (38:34):
Wild episode.
Speaker 3 (38:47):
Voiceover is a Production Of iHeart Podcasts I'm, Your. Host
hopewordard our executive Producers Are christina Everett And. Julie pinero
our supervising Producer Is. Emily meronoff our assistant Producer Is.
Logan palau Engineering By bahid fraser and mixing and Mastering By.
Abu zafar if you liked, this episode please tell a
(39:11):
friend and don't forget, to, rate review and subscribe To
boy sober On the, iHeartRadio App, apple podcasts and wherever
you get your.
Speaker 12 (39:19):
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