July 9, 2025 • 27 mins
How can we untangle the emotional and physical in our relationships? Can we ever find a happy medium between hook-up culture and celibacy? And what counts as “sex” anyway? This week, we’re tackling these questions - and more! - with sex therapist Casey Tanner.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I feel like whenever you ask me how do you
define sex? I have a kind of a frustrating answer
because my answer is to really think about, like, what
does creating a clear definition of sex do?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Who does that serve? Right?
Speaker 1 (00:13):
I think that when that line was drawn initially, initially,
you know, traditionally, like specially in purity culture, where it
was like, this is the point where you have your virginity,
this is the point where you lose your virginity. That
defines how likely you are to be able to get married,
et cetera, et cetera. Right, all of those things you're worth,
sometimes your literal financial worth as a woman.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
So I just try to challenge.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
The idea that we need to agree on that because
why And I will say, like, I just think that
everybody gets to decide what feels like sex to them.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
I'm hope, ordered and welcome to voiceover a space where
we're learning and unlearning all the myths we're taught about
love and relationships. Today we're talking about something I think
everyone will feel seen by. It's how to untangle the
(01:09):
physical and emotional and romantic relationships. And we have a
real certified sex therapist to help us Casey Danner is
the creator of Queer Sex Therapy on Instagram, founder of
the queer sex therapy practice, the Expansive Group, and most recently,
author of the book Feel It All, which is an
(01:30):
amazing book that feels both like a gut punch and
a warm hug. Casey grew up as an evangelical Christian,
and in college she realized she was queer, leading her
down a path of exploration and self discovery that required
her to unlearn everything she was taught about what relationships
should look like, how we should love, and especially how
(01:53):
we should approach sex. This is something I can definitely
relate to, and I think no matter the religion you
grew up and it's ingrained in our society. So sit
back and relax while Casey and I start to untangle
all these complicated feelings about how to approach sex in relationships.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Casey, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
So glad to be here and excited to talk about
this topic.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah. Yeah, doven into this topic for an extended amount
of time on a podcast yet, So this is exciting.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
I want to get into your book a little because
in it you wrote we're all living on the edge
of a sexual awakening, both individually and collectively, and I
want to know what that means to you.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
I think that a lot of us are taught that
in life you have one sexual awakening and that's puberty,
which which is such an unfortunate lie because how many
of us are having great sexual experiences during puberty?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
None of us. I mean, I don't know. I haven't
met anybody yet, so you tell me.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Though, it's like a very, very ward time.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
So I really encourage this idea because I see it
in my work with with couples, relationships individuals that like,
we're always going through some kind of wakening. Our bodies
are always changing, so we are always renegotiating our relationship
to things. Right, Like, you turn thirty, you turn forty,
suddenly you've got back pain. Now for the first time,
you need accommodations around sex, and that's a sort of awakening. Wow,
(03:16):
I don't have to push my body through pain to
have great sex. There's moments like that that we're always having.
So that's on the individual level, and then I think
on the collective level, we are constantly, you know, standing
on the shoulders of previous generations to better understand how
to teach and talk about sex. So even seeing the
ways that like parents are so much better equipped to
(03:39):
talk about consent from an early age, we are going
to continue to see. I'm going to use sex positivity,
even though I've complicated feelings about that word, but I
think we'll continue to just learn a lot from people
younger than us.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Frankly, what are your complications around the word sex positivity?
Speaker 1 (03:56):
You know, obviously sex negativity and purity culture have been
so detrimental, but I do think that there has been
a period of time we're still kind of in it
where we've her culture has swung a little bit too
far on the other side of the pendulum, where we're
in this space of what has now come to be
known as compulsory sexuality, which is this idea that sex
(04:18):
is so great, so amazing, so important that if you're
not having it, something is wrong with you, right, so
sort of the opposite of sex negativity. And so what
I try to encourage in my book and in my
work is where is that middle ground where actually there's
nothing that makes anyone good, bad, right, wrong, healthy, unhealthy,
that actually people get to custom tailor what works for them.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Something I think of when I'm thinking of learning from
the generations before us, and that pendulum swing is like
when I was sort of introduced to sex positivity, it
was twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen. I was in college, an
SCC school. Everyone was drinking, everyone was hooking up all
the time, Like hookup culture was so intense and so heightened.
(04:59):
And I do think that like hookup culture has really
scarred so many women and like and men, if I'm
being frank, like so many and it gave us this
toolbox that was just like so confusing. And I think
that is one of the reasons why we've seen this
pendulum swing back to like celibacy, because we were all
(05:22):
having as much sex as we wanted to, I guess,
and even like wanted to yeah, right right, but we
realized that it's not maybe the kind of sex we
want to have.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
I do think it is the pendulum trying to find
its way back to center.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
That's it, right, Because you know, I was in headlines
for a little while about being celibate, and I was like.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Whoa, whoa whoa whoa whoa, Like.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
I just never want anyone to feel like there's sort
of a one size fits all answer hookup culture and
or celibacy, like can the pendulum find the center?
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I don't know, And can our individual pendulums find our
own center?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Right?
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Like, it sounds like it was an incredible choice for you,
and it might.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Not be the best choice of everybody.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Yes, but I want to talk to you about sex
panic because I was reading about it and I was like, oh, oh, oh,
my god, that's actually me. But I would love to
hear in your own words, kind of like, how do
you describe sex panic?
Speaker 4 (06:23):
What are the signs of it? How could someone spot
it in themselves.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I work with a lot of couples in relationships that
come in and they say something along the lines of
we're doing really well, we're really happy, we're just not
having enough sex and that is creating conflict. And usually
by the time folks make their way into my office,
they're pretty panicked about that reality. They're like, the fact
that we're not having as much sex as our friends
(06:51):
who are in a relationship, or this couple in the
media makes us wonder if we should break up if
we're not right for each other. And there are, of
course cases where like that becomes important enough that it
might end a relationship. But I find that a lot
of my work is helping people sow down and be like, wait, wait, wait,
not enough by whose standards?
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Right?
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Like is it enough for each of you? Is it
enough for the two of you together? Does it matter
that it's not as much as so and so or
this whatever? And so it's really trying to help people
get back in touch. I compare this to like hunger
and fullness cues with eating get back in touch with
their own sexual desire cues so that they can make
(07:32):
decisions based off of their values and not based on
a comparison.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Is it comparison that usually is at the root of
the conflict usually totally.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
I think it's comparison.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Whether it's comparison to a previous relationship you've been in
a lot of times. Frankly, it's comparison to a fantasy.
It's comparison to this idea that like, this is what
I thought a marriage or a relationship should look like.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
And so they're not even comparing it to something real.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Because I will tell you, couples go through and ebb
and flow as it relates to sex, and it's a
very very normal experience to have times where a relationship
is prioritizing other parts of that relationship that aren't being
naked together.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
On an individual level, if you have a client who's
struggling with sex panic, who's not partnered, what does that
usually look and sound like?
Speaker 1 (08:21):
I think if somebody is coming in and they're experiencing
distress because they're not having in their eyes enough sex, ye,
I'm not going to write that feeling off and.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Just be like, by who's standard, You're.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Fine, right, Like totally there might be actual grief there.
If there's somebody that's like, I've been looking, I've been
on the apps, I've been going on dates, nothing's panning out.
My body is ready for that connection. I'm not going
to talk anybody out of that. Like we can grieve that, Yeah,
you're longing for one thing and that's not happening. And
if there are voices and components of that distress that
(08:55):
are like you're not a real man because of this, right,
or you're not really queen because you're not having queer sex,
I do even start to help them piece apart, like
what is actually you and what is oppressive messaging that's
made its way into your life.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
When you're working with someone who wants to like reconnect
to maybe their sexuality, their desire and maybe like get
these cobwebs out of like fantasy and comparison, and this
is the type of sexual person I'm supposed to be.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
Where do you start with them?
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Because that was one of the reasons why I sort
of went celibate and gave it all up for a
little while, because I realized, oh, my gosh, I'm having
so much sex that number one I don't even enjoy
number two. It leaves me feeling like so empty, and
I don't even know what my relationship to desire and
sex is without.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
A man in the picture.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
So how do you feel about sort of like the
celibacy approach.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
What's your advice to people? Like, what are your thoughts there?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, my gosh, I myself just had a window of
celibacy that was really intentional and got a lot out
of it. Like I am never going to to speak
generally against any kind of sexual decision, because I think
in the right context, at the right time, it can
absolutely make sense. There are ways that we get to
know ourselves potentially by having sex, and there are ways
(10:31):
that we get to know ourselves by not having sex. Yeah,
So if somebody's like, I feel like.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
I've gotten that one part of it down.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I know what it's like to be really engaged with culture,
but like, I don't actually know what parts of me
I might meet if I'm putting my energy elsewhere, right,
because it's I think celibacy. We just think about it
as like taking away to sex, But what we don't
often talk about is the energy that that opens up.
Because when what you're doing is like looking for partnership,
looking for sex, your energy is erected towards that goal.
(11:01):
So when celibacy is now on the table, it might
open your world up to maybe a new hobby, right,
or engaging in friendships in a different way, engaging with
your body in a different way, engaging with depending on
what hellabacity looks like for you, might look like, engaging
in self pleasure in a different way.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
So yeah, I believe.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
That that if not done out of a should, if
not done out of shame totally, it can really open
something up.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
I love that you clarified not done out of a
should or not done out of shame, because I don't
know what your experience is with this, and I wasn't
going to bring this up. I went to an SLAA meeting,
a Sex Love Attics anonymous meeting the other day, and
I did feel like shame was in the room with us,
you know what, Like I.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Was a lot.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
I've read this law manual to bag, I was like,
not question air, No.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
It's great. I mean I got a lot out of it, frankly.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Okay, So like, what's your take on that, what's your
experience with that?
Speaker 4 (11:55):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
I mean, I just I think whenever we talk about sex,
because of the way we were all raised, whether it
was religious or not, shame is going to be in
the room. Yeah, because we just we were taught that
even the word sex carry is shame. So it doesn't
surprise me, right, Like I do think, Yeah, I think
for folks that are considering busy, especially if they're feeling
(12:18):
like there's some compulsive behaviors happening, or if the sex
that they've been having has been a coping mechanism mm hmm,
I would just say, like whether it's a group, a therapist,
or even one person, if it's a sponsor or a friend,
just be checking the motivation with that person, right, Let's
just notice where it's coming from. I had the experience
of moving into the period of celibacy and then going
(12:39):
to therapy talking with my therapist and he was like, listen,
I support you on this, but I also just want
to say, like, I don't think this is the only
way for you to work on the things that you
want to work on. So I think whenever we get
into a rigid place of like this is the only
way somebody who struggles with X stop struggling, I think
(12:59):
we've probably.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
On a little too far.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
I agree, because my next question, and something I would
just love your thoughts on, is like, sometimes I do
have conversations with women who have been engaging with celibacy
for a while, and I want to reiterate how absolutely
healing I think it can be. But there have been
conversations I've had with people where I'm like, Okay, are
we healing or are we avoiding?
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah? Totally.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
When I hear people grappling with this question, I think
also the question of a sexuality comes up to like
am I healing?
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Am I avoiding?
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Or is it maybe who I am that actually not
having sex is what's right for me? In an ongoing way,
avoidance is for many people a symptom of trauma. Doesn't
matter what the trauma is. You know, our bodies will
move to protect us by avoiding situations that remind us
of where we got hurt. And so if sex is
an area of life where we got hurt, we may
be pulled to avoid sex. But I think avoidance there
(13:55):
is a little bit of a side of judgment. I
think to the word avoidance because it might also be
that you're taking a break from something that feels scary
while you develop the skills and internal resources to figure
out how to circle back to it in a way
that doesn't re traumatize you. That's not avoidance, right, But
what could be avoidance is I had a bad sexual experience.
(14:19):
I no longer want to get anywhere near sex, even
though sex is important to me, and I'm not even
having conversations about it in therapy or with my community
such that I'm like getting pretty stagnant around it, right, Like,
that might be avoidance.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
So what's your advice for someone who wants to have
sex but is coming from a place of fear.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, Well, there's a lot of sexual things that we
can do in between celibacy and hookup culture. And I'm
not even talking about having sex. I'm talking about what
would it be like to read a book where the
word sex is mentioned and just notice what happens your body?
What would be like to listen to a podcast where
(15:02):
sex is a topic, like can we slowly approach sexuality?
Noticing like, Okay, having sex right now doesn't feel safe?
What does feel safe? Just talking to my friends about
sex feel safe? We do for folks with sexual trauma, especially,
often the work looks like starting I'm going to use
the phrase very small, but those small things feel very,
(15:23):
very big to folks who have had these experiences.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
Totally starting small. Of course.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
One of the best parts about being celibate for me
for a little while because my goal was one year.
But I'm gonna be honest with you, Casey, I was
like six months.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
In and then I was like, that's just my truth,
that's my job.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, love that for you.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
But the best part of being celibate for me for
a little while was that I felt like I finally
got to understand my own desire, what I want and
what I needed, like without a man in the picture, specifically,
what is your advice for someone who's having a difficult
time connecting to desire, well, all of.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Us, no matter gender.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
We're raised to be cut off from our bodies, right,
And I use food as an example because I think
it's one we can really relate to where we're not
taught to go, Am I hungry?
Speaker 4 (16:09):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Then I'll eat?
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Am I full?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Then I'll stop.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
We're taught to go what does my body look like
compared to what it should look like? And how should
I moderate my food and take based off of that?
And we do the same thing with sex. What amount
of sex am I having versus the amount I've been
taught I should be having? And how do I move
myself in that direction? Which has nothing to do with desire?
And so I think it's learning to clue into any
(16:33):
of your body sensations can put you on a path
towards cluing into desire, because desire that's pretty abstract term.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
It's vague. What does it mean to feel desire?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
But what we can start to talk about is here
are some of the ways that your body might signal
to you desire or arousal is happening, right? Is it
I got goosebumps? Is it ooh, I feel warm? Or
my upper lip is starting to sweat. I'm staring and
I can't look away, right, like quantified, making concrete. What
(17:02):
do I do when I'm in a desirous state. I
get awkward, I get weird. Like, yeah, sometimes tuning into
desire means noticing when you get weird, right, So, like
I think learning how to get specific with yourself.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
Another one of the reasons why I decided to take
a step back from sex and dating and everything was
because I sort of like had this flashback to one
of my very first sexual experiences, because I started having
sex like very young. I was thirteen, and it was
in hiding with someone that loved me, but during a
very chaotic time in my family. So it was like
(17:56):
sort of a coping mechanism. Whatever, we don't need to
get into all of that, and I sort of felt like,
oh my gosh, like I have sort of been replaying
this script like my whole life. Yeah, So I wanted
to ask you, like, how impactful do you think our
earlier sexual experiences are, Like how do they shape our
relationships to sex and desire? And do you think they
(18:19):
kind of define our sex lives? And if so, how
do we untangle that? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I think I think they're tremendously impactful. I mean, it's
what research shows. But I wouldn't go as far as
to say as they define us. I would say they
set us on a path. But as we get older,
that path has some forks in the road, right, And
unless we're sort of like doing the work, we will
probably continue walking straight ahead. But if we're, if we
(18:46):
have the support that we need, if we get the
accurate information, the resources that we need, we develop the
skills to take the risk of veering off of that path, right,
trying sex in the light instead of and hiding, seeing
what it feels like, right, So I think it gives
you a sort of like etching. And then I think
that community, accurate information, understanding the impact of oppression, all
(19:07):
of those things starts to put you in choice.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
I'm thinking of so many of us who have had
like damaging early sexual experiences and how we've like stumbled
through so many like bad sort of sexual encounters, Like.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
How do you how do you get to be okay
again after that?
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Totally.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
I mean, when we're developing a relationship with anything, one
of the things I abody is taking in is the ratio
of positive experiences.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
We have with that thing.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Neutral experiences, negative experiences. So if you have had a
ton of negative, unsafe, whatever it is, experiences with sex,
it's going to take a number of positive experiences with
sex for your nervous system to start to trust this
is not just a scary thing.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
That's why I start so.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Small, because we totally have a positive conversation about sex
that can be impactful in starting to heal what has
gone wrong.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
And also, something that you've just made me think of
is like I think when we say the word sex,
people always think like full blown sex.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
Maybe they think straight sex.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
But I would love to know sort of how you
just generally define sex because to me, I'm like, obviously,
if you're holding someone's hand, that's not sex. But I'm
like starting small and these little like romantic gestures, physical gestures, like.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
I do think people really underestimate them.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
And you know, there might be people who holding hands
feels pretty sexual for them, right maybe maybe there's like
a handkink that they have and that feels extraordinarily horny
for them, Right Like.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Who am I to say that's not sex?
Speaker 1 (20:44):
I'm not gonna But to your point that being said,
teaching people how to value things outside of penetration is
a huge part of what I do.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
What is the biggest misconception when it comes to sexual desire.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
HM, that everyone experiences it spontaneously, that everyone who will
just out of nowhere experienced desire, when actually the vast
majority of people of filth is especially need to develop
it pretty intentionally, especially.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
In a long term relationship.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
Say more about that.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
So this is coming out of Emily Nagovski's research that
I highly recommend reading Come as you Are if you
haven't already, where she talks about the different types of desire.
So there are some people who lean towards ten, towards
more spontaneous desire, meaning they can get horny out of nowhere,
doesn't even need to be much of a queue, it
just happens, right, Yeah. And then there are folks that
(21:42):
have more responsive desire, meaning that the context they're in,
the person they're with, how it's going between the two
of them, the room that they're in, how their day went,
has a huge impact on the likelihood that they're going
to become aroused. And so we have a lot of
people out here having like super busy days, haven't gotten
(22:03):
a chance to take care of themselves. Their partner gets
home from work and they're expecting themselves to be turned on,
and that is just how most bodies operate.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
That's so funny because you say that's not how most
bodies operate, but it's like that's how we all feel
like we should be operating.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Oh of course people will start to think I'm not
attracted to my partner.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
And you know that could be the case, right, I'm
not gonna write that off.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
But there's a lot we can try to parse these
vari bills apart I do.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
I have so much worry about my married friends who
come with a lot of Christian shame, and I think
there are specifically a lot of people who do have
this experience with having sex in secret under the understanding
that it comes because you're breaking rules.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
Do you see what I mean?
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Like, I specifically have this one friend who is so
not interested in sex anymore because it's a available to her.
She's married now, and for the first time ever, she
has the choice, it's her actual choice to not have sex.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
It makes so much sense to me.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
It makes so much sense to me, And she doesn't
even want to go near her partner where does someone
like that begin because I feel like that is probably
so many women who their whole lives were told don't
like sex, don't engage with it, and then you get
married and you're supposed to immediately love it. I mean,
I don't know how do you unentangle that?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
No, that only are you supposed to immediately love it,
You're supposed to know what you're doing at it. The
hell knows what they're doing there for sex. But yes,
I feel so much empathy for this person and for
anyone struggling in this way. And I think part of
this is that we are attracted to what's familiar. What's
familiar feels safe, even if what's familiar isn't safe, right, Yeah,
(23:56):
so yeah it probably My guess would be a doesn't
really feel that safe to be like engaging in like
sex that's above board, it's untotally right. Like, I think
there's also something to be said to this layer of
like some of us are attracted to forbiddenness, Like forbiddenness.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Can be very erotic for people. But I do think that.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
For a lot of people want sex starts to feel
on the table, then yeah, there's an erotic component that
gets lost for them.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
As well. Totally.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
There was something about the entire sort of boys sober
thing that was in a way erotic because I was like,
I can't have it, but and it almost makes you
want it again. So taking it off the table I
think can be helpful.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yeah, And that's an approach and exercise that some sex
therapists will do with folks is to experiment with taking
it off the table and see what room that makes
for parts of them that might desire sex.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
What's one piece of advice you give to almost all
of your clients, and it comes to having a more
fulfilling sex life.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
I would say that as you're sort of becoming aware
of what might my next sexual awakening be, let go
of the idea that it happens like on a yoga
mad in a beautiful setting when you're feeling calmed, like
the turmoil that is being stirred up inside of you
right now. Maybe it's because of how you feel about
the world. Maybe it's because of how you feel with
a partner that is fodder for your sexual awakening. I
(25:25):
say in the book, sometimes the sound of a sexual
awakening is a scream, and I really do believe that
sometimes they are born from Rock Bottoms.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
Yes, I agree completely.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
I love that you say it probably won't be on
a yoga mat now. I do think people are really
waiting for everything to be perfect, for all elements to
be perfect, for the perfect person to run in.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
The magic is really in learning how to be with
how challenging life can be.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
On repeating like, that really is where the magic is.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
I think the first step towards awakening can be a
terrifying one.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Like if you're scared.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I don't mean like scared because you're traumatized, but if
you're a little bit scared, it might be a sign
that you're in the middle of one right now.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Watch out, your sexual awakening maybe coming, or maybe it's
happening to you right now. If so, I hope you're
embracing it and having fun getting to know yourself and
what you want. I want to give a big thank
you to Casey for talking to us. I'll be keeping
a lot of what she said in mind as I
move forward in this journey, and thank you all for listening.
(26:32):
Talk Next Week, Boys Sover is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
I'm your host, Hope Ordered. Our executive producers are Christina Everett,
and Julie Pinero. Our supervising producer is Emily Meronoff engineering
(26:53):
by Bahed Fraser and mixing and mastering by.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
A Boo Zafar.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
If you liked this episode, please tell a friend and
don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to boy Sober
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get
your favorite shows.
I feel like whenever you ask me how do you
define sex? I have a kind of a frustrating answer
because my answer is to really think about, like, what
does creating a clear definition of sex do?
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Who does that serve? Right?
Speaker 1 (00:13):
I think that when that line was drawn initially, initially,
you know, traditionally, like specially in purity culture, where it
was like, this is the point where you have your virginity,
this is the point where you lose your virginity. That
defines how likely you are to be able to get married,
et cetera, et cetera. Right, all of those things you're worth,
sometimes your literal financial worth as a woman.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
So I just try to challenge.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
The idea that we need to agree on that because
why And I will say, like, I just think that
everybody gets to decide what feels like sex to them.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
I'm hope, ordered and welcome to voiceover a space where
we're learning and unlearning all the myths we're taught about
love and relationships. Today we're talking about something I think
everyone will feel seen by. It's how to untangle the
(01:09):
physical and emotional and romantic relationships. And we have a
real certified sex therapist to help us Casey Danner is
the creator of Queer Sex Therapy on Instagram, founder of
the queer sex therapy practice, the Expansive Group, and most recently,
author of the book Feel It All, which is an
(01:30):
amazing book that feels both like a gut punch and
a warm hug. Casey grew up as an evangelical Christian,
and in college she realized she was queer, leading her
down a path of exploration and self discovery that required
her to unlearn everything she was taught about what relationships
should look like, how we should love, and especially how
(01:53):
we should approach sex. This is something I can definitely
relate to, and I think no matter the religion you
grew up and it's ingrained in our society. So sit
back and relax while Casey and I start to untangle
all these complicated feelings about how to approach sex in relationships.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Casey, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
So glad to be here and excited to talk about
this topic.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah. Yeah, doven into this topic for an extended amount
of time on a podcast yet, So this is exciting.
Speaker 3 (02:25):
I want to get into your book a little because
in it you wrote we're all living on the edge
of a sexual awakening, both individually and collectively, and I
want to know what that means to you.
Speaker 1 (02:38):
I think that a lot of us are taught that
in life you have one sexual awakening and that's puberty,
which which is such an unfortunate lie because how many
of us are having great sexual experiences during puberty?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
None of us. I mean, I don't know. I haven't
met anybody yet, so you tell me.
Speaker 4 (02:53):
Though, it's like a very, very ward time.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
So I really encourage this idea because I see it
in my work with with couples, relationships individuals that like,
we're always going through some kind of wakening. Our bodies
are always changing, so we are always renegotiating our relationship
to things. Right, Like, you turn thirty, you turn forty,
suddenly you've got back pain. Now for the first time,
you need accommodations around sex, and that's a sort of awakening. Wow,
(03:16):
I don't have to push my body through pain to
have great sex. There's moments like that that we're always having.
So that's on the individual level, and then I think
on the collective level, we are constantly, you know, standing
on the shoulders of previous generations to better understand how
to teach and talk about sex. So even seeing the
ways that like parents are so much better equipped to
(03:39):
talk about consent from an early age, we are going
to continue to see. I'm going to use sex positivity,
even though I've complicated feelings about that word, but I
think we'll continue to just learn a lot from people
younger than us.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Frankly, what are your complications around the word sex positivity?
Speaker 1 (03:56):
You know, obviously sex negativity and purity culture have been
so detrimental, but I do think that there has been
a period of time we're still kind of in it
where we've her culture has swung a little bit too
far on the other side of the pendulum, where we're
in this space of what has now come to be
known as compulsory sexuality, which is this idea that sex
(04:18):
is so great, so amazing, so important that if you're
not having it, something is wrong with you, right, so
sort of the opposite of sex negativity. And so what
I try to encourage in my book and in my
work is where is that middle ground where actually there's
nothing that makes anyone good, bad, right, wrong, healthy, unhealthy,
that actually people get to custom tailor what works for them.
Speaker 3 (04:38):
Something I think of when I'm thinking of learning from
the generations before us, and that pendulum swing is like
when I was sort of introduced to sex positivity, it
was twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen. I was in college, an
SCC school. Everyone was drinking, everyone was hooking up all
the time, Like hookup culture was so intense and so heightened.
(04:59):
And I do think that like hookup culture has really
scarred so many women and like and men, if I'm
being frank, like so many and it gave us this
toolbox that was just like so confusing. And I think
that is one of the reasons why we've seen this
pendulum swing back to like celibacy, because we were all
(05:22):
having as much sex as we wanted to, I guess,
and even like wanted to yeah, right right, but we
realized that it's not maybe the kind of sex we
want to have.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
I do think it is the pendulum trying to find
its way back to center.
Speaker 3 (05:40):
That's it, right, Because you know, I was in headlines
for a little while about being celibate, and I was like.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Whoa, whoa whoa whoa whoa, Like.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
I just never want anyone to feel like there's sort
of a one size fits all answer hookup culture and
or celibacy, like can the pendulum find the center?
Speaker 1 (05:59):
I don't know, And can our individual pendulums find our
own center?
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Right?
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Like, it sounds like it was an incredible choice for you,
and it might.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
Not be the best choice of everybody.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Yes, but I want to talk to you about sex
panic because I was reading about it and I was like, oh, oh, oh,
my god, that's actually me. But I would love to
hear in your own words, kind of like, how do
you describe sex panic?
Speaker 4 (06:23):
What are the signs of it? How could someone spot
it in themselves.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I work with a lot of couples in relationships that
come in and they say something along the lines of
we're doing really well, we're really happy, we're just not
having enough sex and that is creating conflict. And usually
by the time folks make their way into my office,
they're pretty panicked about that reality. They're like, the fact
that we're not having as much sex as our friends
(06:51):
who are in a relationship, or this couple in the
media makes us wonder if we should break up if
we're not right for each other. And there are, of
course cases where like that becomes important enough that it
might end a relationship. But I find that a lot
of my work is helping people sow down and be like, wait, wait, wait,
not enough by whose standards?
Speaker 3 (07:11):
Right?
Speaker 1 (07:11):
Like is it enough for each of you? Is it
enough for the two of you together? Does it matter
that it's not as much as so and so or
this whatever? And so it's really trying to help people
get back in touch. I compare this to like hunger
and fullness cues with eating get back in touch with
their own sexual desire cues so that they can make
(07:32):
decisions based off of their values and not based on
a comparison.
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Is it comparison that usually is at the root of
the conflict usually totally.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
I think it's comparison.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Whether it's comparison to a previous relationship you've been in
a lot of times. Frankly, it's comparison to a fantasy.
It's comparison to this idea that like, this is what
I thought a marriage or a relationship should look like.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
And so they're not even comparing it to something real.
Speaker 1 (07:59):
Because I will tell you, couples go through and ebb
and flow as it relates to sex, and it's a
very very normal experience to have times where a relationship
is prioritizing other parts of that relationship that aren't being
naked together.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
On an individual level, if you have a client who's
struggling with sex panic, who's not partnered, what does that
usually look and sound like?
Speaker 1 (08:21):
I think if somebody is coming in and they're experiencing
distress because they're not having in their eyes enough sex, ye,
I'm not going to write that feeling off and.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Just be like, by who's standard, You're.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Fine, right, Like totally there might be actual grief there.
If there's somebody that's like, I've been looking, I've been
on the apps, I've been going on dates, nothing's panning out.
My body is ready for that connection. I'm not going
to talk anybody out of that. Like we can grieve that, Yeah,
you're longing for one thing and that's not happening. And
if there are voices and components of that distress that
(08:55):
are like you're not a real man because of this, right,
or you're not really queen because you're not having queer sex,
I do even start to help them piece apart, like
what is actually you and what is oppressive messaging that's
made its way into your life.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
When you're working with someone who wants to like reconnect
to maybe their sexuality, their desire and maybe like get
these cobwebs out of like fantasy and comparison, and this
is the type of sexual person I'm supposed to be.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
Where do you start with them?
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Because that was one of the reasons why I sort
of went celibate and gave it all up for a
little while, because I realized, oh, my gosh, I'm having
so much sex that number one I don't even enjoy
number two. It leaves me feeling like so empty, and
I don't even know what my relationship to desire and
sex is without.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
A man in the picture.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
So how do you feel about sort of like the
celibacy approach.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
What's your advice to people? Like, what are your thoughts there?
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Yeah, my gosh, I myself just had a window of
celibacy that was really intentional and got a lot out
of it. Like I am never going to to speak
generally against any kind of sexual decision, because I think
in the right context, at the right time, it can
absolutely make sense. There are ways that we get to
know ourselves potentially by having sex, and there are ways
(10:31):
that we get to know ourselves by not having sex. Yeah,
So if somebody's like, I feel like.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
I've gotten that one part of it down.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I know what it's like to be really engaged with culture,
but like, I don't actually know what parts of me
I might meet if I'm putting my energy elsewhere, right,
because it's I think celibacy. We just think about it
as like taking away to sex, But what we don't
often talk about is the energy that that opens up.
Because when what you're doing is like looking for partnership,
looking for sex, your energy is erected towards that goal.
(11:01):
So when celibacy is now on the table, it might
open your world up to maybe a new hobby, right,
or engaging in friendships in a different way, engaging with
your body in a different way, engaging with depending on
what hellabacity looks like for you, might look like, engaging
in self pleasure in a different way.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
So yeah, I believe.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
That that if not done out of a should, if
not done out of shame totally, it can really open
something up.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
I love that you clarified not done out of a
should or not done out of shame, because I don't
know what your experience is with this, and I wasn't
going to bring this up. I went to an SLAA meeting,
a Sex Love Attics anonymous meeting the other day, and
I did feel like shame was in the room with us,
you know what, Like I.
Speaker 4 (11:43):
Was a lot.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
I've read this law manual to bag, I was like,
not question air, No.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
It's great. I mean I got a lot out of it, frankly.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Okay, So like, what's your take on that, what's your
experience with that?
Speaker 4 (11:55):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (11:56):
I mean, I just I think whenever we talk about sex,
because of the way we were all raised, whether it
was religious or not, shame is going to be in
the room. Yeah, because we just we were taught that
even the word sex carry is shame. So it doesn't
surprise me, right, Like I do think, Yeah, I think
for folks that are considering busy, especially if they're feeling
(12:18):
like there's some compulsive behaviors happening, or if the sex
that they've been having has been a coping mechanism mm hmm,
I would just say, like whether it's a group, a therapist,
or even one person, if it's a sponsor or a friend,
just be checking the motivation with that person, right, Let's
just notice where it's coming from. I had the experience
of moving into the period of celibacy and then going
(12:39):
to therapy talking with my therapist and he was like, listen,
I support you on this, but I also just want
to say, like, I don't think this is the only
way for you to work on the things that you
want to work on. So I think whenever we get
into a rigid place of like this is the only
way somebody who struggles with X stop struggling, I think
(12:59):
we've probably.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
On a little too far.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
I agree, because my next question, and something I would
just love your thoughts on, is like, sometimes I do
have conversations with women who have been engaging with celibacy
for a while, and I want to reiterate how absolutely
healing I think it can be. But there have been
conversations I've had with people where I'm like, Okay, are
we healing or are we avoiding?
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yeah? Totally.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
When I hear people grappling with this question, I think
also the question of a sexuality comes up to like
am I healing?
Speaker 2 (13:31):
Am I avoiding?
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Or is it maybe who I am that actually not
having sex is what's right for me? In an ongoing way,
avoidance is for many people a symptom of trauma. Doesn't
matter what the trauma is. You know, our bodies will
move to protect us by avoiding situations that remind us
of where we got hurt. And so if sex is
an area of life where we got hurt, we may
be pulled to avoid sex. But I think avoidance there
(13:55):
is a little bit of a side of judgment. I
think to the word avoidance because it might also be
that you're taking a break from something that feels scary
while you develop the skills and internal resources to figure
out how to circle back to it in a way
that doesn't re traumatize you. That's not avoidance, right, But
what could be avoidance is I had a bad sexual experience.
(14:19):
I no longer want to get anywhere near sex, even
though sex is important to me, and I'm not even
having conversations about it in therapy or with my community
such that I'm like getting pretty stagnant around it, right, Like,
that might be avoidance.
Speaker 3 (14:35):
So what's your advice for someone who wants to have
sex but is coming from a place of fear.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
Yeah, Well, there's a lot of sexual things that we
can do in between celibacy and hookup culture. And I'm
not even talking about having sex. I'm talking about what
would it be like to read a book where the
word sex is mentioned and just notice what happens your body?
What would be like to listen to a podcast where
(15:02):
sex is a topic, like can we slowly approach sexuality?
Noticing like, Okay, having sex right now doesn't feel safe?
What does feel safe? Just talking to my friends about
sex feel safe? We do for folks with sexual trauma, especially,
often the work looks like starting I'm going to use
the phrase very small, but those small things feel very,
(15:23):
very big to folks who have had these experiences.
Speaker 4 (15:25):
Totally starting small. Of course.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
One of the best parts about being celibate for me
for a little while because my goal was one year.
But I'm gonna be honest with you, Casey, I was
like six months.
Speaker 4 (15:38):
In and then I was like, that's just my truth,
that's my job.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, love that for you.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
But the best part of being celibate for me for
a little while was that I felt like I finally
got to understand my own desire, what I want and
what I needed, like without a man in the picture, specifically,
what is your advice for someone who's having a difficult
time connecting to desire, well, all of.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Us, no matter gender.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
We're raised to be cut off from our bodies, right,
And I use food as an example because I think
it's one we can really relate to where we're not
taught to go, Am I hungry?
Speaker 4 (16:09):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Then I'll eat?
Speaker 4 (16:10):
Am I full?
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Then I'll stop.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
We're taught to go what does my body look like
compared to what it should look like? And how should
I moderate my food and take based off of that?
And we do the same thing with sex. What amount
of sex am I having versus the amount I've been
taught I should be having? And how do I move
myself in that direction? Which has nothing to do with desire?
And so I think it's learning to clue into any
(16:33):
of your body sensations can put you on a path
towards cluing into desire, because desire that's pretty abstract term.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
It's vague. What does it mean to feel desire?
Speaker 1 (16:42):
But what we can start to talk about is here
are some of the ways that your body might signal
to you desire or arousal is happening, right? Is it
I got goosebumps? Is it ooh, I feel warm? Or
my upper lip is starting to sweat. I'm staring and
I can't look away, right, like quantified, making concrete. What
(17:02):
do I do when I'm in a desirous state. I
get awkward, I get weird. Like, yeah, sometimes tuning into
desire means noticing when you get weird, right, So, like
I think learning how to get specific with yourself.
Speaker 3 (17:34):
Another one of the reasons why I decided to take
a step back from sex and dating and everything was
because I sort of like had this flashback to one
of my very first sexual experiences, because I started having
sex like very young. I was thirteen, and it was
in hiding with someone that loved me, but during a
very chaotic time in my family. So it was like
(17:56):
sort of a coping mechanism. Whatever, we don't need to
get into all of that, and I sort of felt like,
oh my gosh, like I have sort of been replaying
this script like my whole life. Yeah, So I wanted
to ask you, like, how impactful do you think our
earlier sexual experiences are, Like how do they shape our
relationships to sex and desire? And do you think they
(18:19):
kind of define our sex lives? And if so, how
do we untangle that? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:24):
I think I think they're tremendously impactful. I mean, it's
what research shows. But I wouldn't go as far as
to say as they define us. I would say they
set us on a path. But as we get older,
that path has some forks in the road, right, And
unless we're sort of like doing the work, we will
probably continue walking straight ahead. But if we're, if we
(18:46):
have the support that we need, if we get the
accurate information, the resources that we need, we develop the
skills to take the risk of veering off of that path, right,
trying sex in the light instead of and hiding, seeing
what it feels like, right, So I think it gives
you a sort of like etching. And then I think
that community, accurate information, understanding the impact of oppression, all
(19:07):
of those things starts to put you in choice.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
I'm thinking of so many of us who have had
like damaging early sexual experiences and how we've like stumbled
through so many like bad sort of sexual encounters, Like.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
How do you how do you get to be okay
again after that?
Speaker 4 (19:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Totally.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
I mean, when we're developing a relationship with anything, one
of the things I abody is taking in is the ratio
of positive experiences.
Speaker 2 (19:38):
We have with that thing.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Neutral experiences, negative experiences. So if you have had a
ton of negative, unsafe, whatever it is, experiences with sex,
it's going to take a number of positive experiences with
sex for your nervous system to start to trust this
is not just a scary thing.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
That's why I start so.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Small, because we totally have a positive conversation about sex
that can be impactful in starting to heal what has
gone wrong.
Speaker 3 (20:04):
And also, something that you've just made me think of
is like I think when we say the word sex,
people always think like full blown sex.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
Maybe they think straight sex.
Speaker 3 (20:15):
But I would love to know sort of how you
just generally define sex because to me, I'm like, obviously,
if you're holding someone's hand, that's not sex. But I'm
like starting small and these little like romantic gestures, physical gestures, like.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
I do think people really underestimate them.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
And you know, there might be people who holding hands
feels pretty sexual for them, right maybe maybe there's like
a handkink that they have and that feels extraordinarily horny
for them, Right Like.
Speaker 2 (20:43):
Who am I to say that's not sex?
Speaker 1 (20:44):
I'm not gonna But to your point that being said,
teaching people how to value things outside of penetration is
a huge part of what I do.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
What is the biggest misconception when it comes to sexual desire.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
HM, that everyone experiences it spontaneously, that everyone who will
just out of nowhere experienced desire, when actually the vast
majority of people of filth is especially need to develop
it pretty intentionally, especially.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
In a long term relationship.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
Say more about that.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
So this is coming out of Emily Nagovski's research that
I highly recommend reading Come as you Are if you
haven't already, where she talks about the different types of desire.
So there are some people who lean towards ten, towards
more spontaneous desire, meaning they can get horny out of nowhere,
doesn't even need to be much of a queue, it
just happens, right, Yeah. And then there are folks that
(21:42):
have more responsive desire, meaning that the context they're in,
the person they're with, how it's going between the two
of them, the room that they're in, how their day went,
has a huge impact on the likelihood that they're going
to become aroused. And so we have a lot of
people out here having like super busy days, haven't gotten
(22:03):
a chance to take care of themselves. Their partner gets
home from work and they're expecting themselves to be turned on,
and that is just how most bodies operate.
Speaker 3 (22:12):
That's so funny because you say that's not how most
bodies operate, but it's like that's how we all feel
like we should be operating.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
Oh of course people will start to think I'm not
attracted to my partner.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
And you know that could be the case, right, I'm
not gonna write that off.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
But there's a lot we can try to parse these
vari bills apart I do.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
I have so much worry about my married friends who
come with a lot of Christian shame, and I think
there are specifically a lot of people who do have
this experience with having sex in secret under the understanding
that it comes because you're breaking rules.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
Do you see what I mean?
Speaker 3 (22:53):
Like, I specifically have this one friend who is so
not interested in sex anymore because it's a available to her.
She's married now, and for the first time ever, she
has the choice, it's her actual choice to not have sex.
Speaker 2 (23:10):
It makes so much sense to me.
Speaker 3 (23:11):
It makes so much sense to me, And she doesn't
even want to go near her partner where does someone
like that begin because I feel like that is probably
so many women who their whole lives were told don't
like sex, don't engage with it, and then you get
married and you're supposed to immediately love it. I mean,
I don't know how do you unentangle that?
Speaker 1 (23:33):
No, that only are you supposed to immediately love it,
You're supposed to know what you're doing at it. The
hell knows what they're doing there for sex. But yes,
I feel so much empathy for this person and for
anyone struggling in this way. And I think part of
this is that we are attracted to what's familiar. What's
familiar feels safe, even if what's familiar isn't safe, right, Yeah,
(23:56):
so yeah it probably My guess would be a doesn't
really feel that safe to be like engaging in like
sex that's above board, it's untotally right. Like, I think
there's also something to be said to this layer of
like some of us are attracted to forbiddenness, Like forbiddenness.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Can be very erotic for people. But I do think that.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
For a lot of people want sex starts to feel
on the table, then yeah, there's an erotic component that
gets lost for them.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
As well. Totally.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
There was something about the entire sort of boys sober
thing that was in a way erotic because I was like,
I can't have it, but and it almost makes you
want it again. So taking it off the table I
think can be helpful.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Yeah, And that's an approach and exercise that some sex
therapists will do with folks is to experiment with taking
it off the table and see what room that makes
for parts of them that might desire sex.
Speaker 3 (24:56):
What's one piece of advice you give to almost all
of your clients, and it comes to having a more
fulfilling sex life.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
I would say that as you're sort of becoming aware
of what might my next sexual awakening be, let go
of the idea that it happens like on a yoga
mad in a beautiful setting when you're feeling calmed, like
the turmoil that is being stirred up inside of you
right now. Maybe it's because of how you feel about
the world. Maybe it's because of how you feel with
a partner that is fodder for your sexual awakening. I
(25:25):
say in the book, sometimes the sound of a sexual
awakening is a scream, and I really do believe that
sometimes they are born from Rock Bottoms.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
Yes, I agree completely.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
I love that you say it probably won't be on
a yoga mat now. I do think people are really
waiting for everything to be perfect, for all elements to
be perfect, for the perfect person to run in.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
The magic is really in learning how to be with
how challenging life can be.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
On repeating like, that really is where the magic is.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
I think the first step towards awakening can be a
terrifying one.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Like if you're scared.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
I don't mean like scared because you're traumatized, but if
you're a little bit scared, it might be a sign
that you're in the middle of one right now.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Watch out, your sexual awakening maybe coming, or maybe it's
happening to you right now. If so, I hope you're
embracing it and having fun getting to know yourself and
what you want. I want to give a big thank
you to Casey for talking to us. I'll be keeping
a lot of what she said in mind as I
move forward in this journey, and thank you all for listening.
(26:32):
Talk Next Week, Boys Sover is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
I'm your host, Hope Ordered. Our executive producers are Christina Everett,
and Julie Pinero. Our supervising producer is Emily Meronoff engineering
(26:53):
by Bahed Fraser and mixing and mastering by.
Speaker 4 (26:57):
A Boo Zafar.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
If you liked this episode, please tell a friend and
don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to boy Sober
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get
your favorite shows.
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