August 27, 2025 • 37 mins
What is “good sex,” and how do we have it? You don’t have to figure it out all on your own. This week, we have someone who can help: Dr. Candice Nicole Hargons, author of “Good Sex: Stories, Science and Strategies for Sexual Liberation.”
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Thanks for talking to me about this. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I know it's vulnerable, it is, but it's I feel
very comfortable. I'm on a mission to make sure everyone's
having good sex, and that starts by talking about it.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
I had all these feelings and stuff, but I'd never
talked about them or anything, so I didn't really know.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
What to do with basically sex in general.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And I especially love talking about it with the friends
I grew up with who had similar religious experiences as me.
Some of them are married now, and even years into
their marriages, they're still unpacking all of their shame around sex.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Growing up, it wasn't an open conversation, so you're just
like supposed to figure it out on your own.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
And a lot of that is anything.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
In the world where you're just supposed to figure it
out on your own, like it's never going to end well.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I feel like that's.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Why sex is so so much gray area, so much
us understood, it's so whatever, because it's like a language
where you're never taught.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
You're doing all these things wrong or right, and you
have no idea, and so you don't know what's good,
what's bad, what's anything.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
You don't have to figure out sex all on your own,
because this week we have someone who can help. I'm
Hopewitdard and welcome to Boysover, a space where we're learning
(01:32):
and unlearning all the myths we're taught about love and relationships.
What is good sex and how do we have it?
I'm sure that's a question everyone is dying to know.
(01:54):
The truth is there's not just one answer. Hot, fun,
and pleasurable sex is different depending on who you are,
and it takes time and exploration to figure out what
all those things mean to you. Enter doctor Candace Nicole
Hargin's author of the book Good Sex Stories, Science and
(02:14):
Strategies for Sexual Liberation. That term sexual liberation is what
most interested me about her work, because I'm desperate to
be freed of all the lies I've been taught about sex,
like that it's dangerous and it should be secretive or shameful.
If you were brought up believing these things too, this
conversation is for you, or even if you didn't, I'm
(02:37):
sure there's still a lot to learn and unlearn on
the road to having great sex. Hi, doctor Candace, how
are you today?
Speaker 4 (02:49):
I'm doing alrighty. How are you?
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I'm good?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
I'm excited about this for like personal reasons, you know,
for the show, but also just because like my relationship
to sex is always like I'm actively working on it.
You know, your book is called Good Sex. Can you
just walk everyone through sort of the origin story of
like how you got introduced to this world of research
and kind of your why behind it all?
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Okay, so the origin story of the framing of good
sex was too bold one. Most of the sex research
out there is about STIs HIV and I'CYM, and I
was like, these aren't even the reasons people are for
real having sex, Like, what is it that we keep
focusing on this now? Of course, later in my career
I learned that, you know, federal funders are like, we
(03:36):
want to focus on diseases, and so we'll give you
money to study diseases as opposed to the pleasurable aspects
of sex or the positive aspects of sex. And so
when I decided to focus on good sex or a
sex positive frame, wanted. I wanted to know about desire
and arousal and orgasm and pleasure and all of these
(03:56):
things that my research team and I asked people about.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
You talk about how a lot of sex research gets
the perspective from mostly like white research participants, but in
your research you focus mainly on black research participants. Can
you talk about your why of that and just what
that was like.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
It's a delight, Yeah, that's what it's like. I'll start
with what it's like. I don't know if you've ever
heard black people tell a story about set I have.
It's the best. It's the best, so it's fun to do.
I'll start with just the joyful reasons why. But also,
black people have historically been used as the sex negative benchmark.
(04:40):
So when I talked about like the sti's, HIV and
unfriended pregnancy, most of the studies are like, black people
are at a deficit in all of these areas. But
when it comes to good sex, there's so many beautiful
things in our culture that we haven't amplified enough. So
I use that as my frame because I feel like
there's a lot to be learned from the margin. So
(05:01):
not just black people, but queer people, people with disabilities,
people around age, you know, ages that are not like
in that norm. All of that is where I find
some of the best information about good sex.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
What do you think was like your most surprising takeaway
from your research.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
The thing that I think piques my curiosity right now
is people's worst sexual experiences. You learn a lot about
good sex based on how people describe their worst sex
and hearing how people overcame that experience, hearing how they
talked back to that experience, how they narrated the levity
(05:39):
they find and talking about the experience. Like, for me,
that's been the fun part, the delightful part.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Something I come across with so many women is like
they've had a negative sexual experience and they don't really
know how to move forward, how to not let it
sort of like seep into every other experience, and that
process of healing is like something I'm still trying to
(06:06):
figure out.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Right, So after a negative experience, whop are like, I'm
never doing that again because walls go up, defenses go up,
and then sometimes you need a little bit of waldof
time to figure out like what you like and what
you don't like, and then you make your boundaries more
perm where it's like I can and want to let
(06:31):
people in again, figure sex out again on my own terms,
and I feel certain enough about who I am, what
I want, what I want to offer, what I want
to give that I can speak to that without it
feeling like threatening totally.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
I want to talk about sexual liberation. In your book,
you talk about intimate justice and erotic equity. Can you
break down those terms for me?
Speaker 4 (07:00):
Yeah, so I'll start with sexual liberation. And at the
core of it, it is authentic sexual self making in
a world that tries to constrict you from becoming an
authentic human in any way. So it's like, I know
a lot of the people that I work with and
self included, have done a lot in the realm of
(07:22):
social justice, only to come home to the injustice to
a partner who doesn't see you as worthy, who doesn't
have reverence for pleasure, enjoy, and generosity sexually in your
own life. And intimate justice is like, this is a space.
Sex is a space where liberation needs to be a
(07:45):
focus to. It's one of the places where you have
the most power to have immediate change.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
I want to talk to you about masturbation. There's so
much to like uncover there and untangle that, and you
let us study of one thousand people who had volvas right,
So this is like your terminology. So I'm assuming it's
people of all different sort of gender expression gender identity,
(08:12):
which again creates for a more well rounded perspective. What
does a study on self pleasure look like? And what
was another sort of surprising takeaway for you?
Speaker 4 (08:24):
Okay, so this was the Magic Wand and Wellness Study.
So me and sex edw with dB and my graduate assistant,
Casey V. Hill, got together with the people from Magic wand.
Everybody got a magic wand everybody was invited to abstain
(08:44):
for a week and then use the magic Wand for
a week and then have sex as usual for a week.
What we learned is that having sex solo sex or
partnered with the magic wand was when people felt closest
to who they were partnered with, like, so that partner
connection increased during that time. And I think it dispels
(09:09):
this myth that like solo sex or masturbation or using
a sex toy, even when you're having partnered sex, is
in competition with your partner. So a lot of people
have a rank order of like partnered sex way up here,
Solo sex is what you settle for when you don't
have a partner, and it's like, no, solo sex is great.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
So I sometimes worry about how much better solo sex
is for me.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Do you know what I mean? You are not alone?
I know, not alone?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Okay, tell me more about or like, tell us the listeners.
What did you uncover in that study where you were like,
oh shit, you.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (09:50):
No, I think that it wasn't even in that study.
I knew that just based on other research that most people,
most women, and most people with bulbas and in particular,
have more orgasmic sex when they're alone. It's easier for
them to, you know, figure out how to come, come
when they want to come. There are less things going
(10:12):
on in your brain sometimes where you're with yourself, and
you know, it's an opportunity to learn, like what you
like and what you don't like. So no, I think
that that wasn't. That wouldn't at all be surprising to
me when a person enjoys solo sex more, especially since
a lot of people are still figuring out their sexual
skill level.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I have a very good friend, she's been married for
a couple of years now, and she had never used
a vibrator.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I was like, you got to do this.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
You know, And I sent her a link for one,
and it was like a small not intimidating one. And
I was telling a friend of mine about this story,
and it was a man, and he immediately got defensive,
being like, well, if she enjoys the vibe vibrator too much,
she won't want to have sex.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
With her husband. That was such a surprising take to me.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
Is that surprising to you at all? No, it's common.
It's unfortunate because when men see themselves as the only
possible vehicle for a woman's pleasure one, that's a lot
of pressure on them for them to live up to two.
Putting in competition a toy, an inanimate object that is
(11:32):
designed exclusively for her pleasure with a whole human being
who is designed for so many other things that are
valuable and amazing, Like the vibrator is your mate, y'all
are about to do this thing together, right, They're seeing
it as a competitor. It's going to be hard on you.
It's going to be hard on you as the partner
(11:55):
because it's you're not exclusively designed for her pleasure.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Okay, doctor Candice, we have something a little different for
you now. We ask listeners to send in questions they
had about their sex lives, and we want you to
give them some advice.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Here's the first question.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
Hi Hope, Hi boy sober. I am calling in with
a question about intimacy. So I've noticed that sex by
myself has always felt better than when I'm having sex
with my partner. I'm too scared to tell them because
I don't want to make them insecure, and honestly, I'm
just really annoyed with having to tell them what I
(12:50):
want all the time, having to explain myself. What would
be your advice?
Speaker 4 (12:54):
Pretty coming for there to be three levels of threat
or fear people experience when it comes to sexual communication.
So there's a self threat, which is like you don't
want to seem incompetent or inexperience. There's the partner threat,
which is like I don't want to hurt my partner's feelings.
I know their ego is tied up in this. Or
(13:15):
there's relationship threat, which is like I shouldn't have to
tell a person things like the relationship isn't probably good
if I have to say this, And so it sounds
like that person is experiencing partner level threat. It makes
sense to have that fear if you've experienced telling the
truth and being sanctioned for it before you are worthy
(13:36):
of an honest conversation, and you don't have to say
it mean just because you need to say what you mean, right,
I think it's okay to have a normal, honest conversation
about it. And this is the part people hate, But
I'm a whole ass psychologist. The amount of times it
takes people to hear something before they change their behavior
is extensive. So it does take time and you will
(13:59):
have to repeat your self. And it's not that they're
being childish. It really does take human beings a long
time to change their behavior. Damn. I love that.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
It's like, give people a little bit of grace.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
Now, if you don't like them, let them go. But
if you like them, if.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
The juice like the squeeze, you know, release it. But
if yeah, please, Okay, I'm gonna go to the next one.
Speaker 6 (14:24):
So my partner masturbates so all the time, and honestly,
it makes me pretty angry. I feel like it's cheating
in a way, especially when he's watching porn. I don't
personally master debate or watch porn, so I just don't
understand why he's doing it so.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Much all the time. So I'm wondering am.
Speaker 6 (14:50):
I wrong to feel that way or is there just
something that I'm not seeing?
Speaker 4 (14:56):
So they do need to have a conversation about what
cheating means to both of them. And we can't hold
our standard or our preference for how we treat our
solo sex life for someone else, even if we're in
relationship with them. So it may be that you're not
getting the sexual attention you want. That is a necessary conversation, like, hey,
(15:16):
I feel like your masturbation is getting in the way
of us having sex. That is fair game, but for
them to enjoy a solo sex practice, it is not
necessarily a bad thing. And maybe having a conversation about
it where you share, like where those feelings come from
for you, whether you're shaming your partner, whether you have
(15:38):
some ideas about solo sex that are based innth. You
should have those conversations, but be reflective about yourself because
it sounds a little bit judging and a little bit shamey,
and we don't want to yet that easier Now, maybe
you can try to like some of the things that
they like. Maybe you like audio erotica instead of visual porn.
(16:01):
Explore some of those options, just for yourself to see
what might pique your interest if that's something that you
would like to try before you kind of like try
to stop somebody else's sexual behavior that's consensual and not
harmful to them.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
I love just the language solo sexual practice because that
gives the whole idea and the whole world of it
so much legitimacy, where I feel like so many especially
women like don't feel like that is a necessary practice
for them. I don't see it as like a practice.
(16:37):
I know for me that my time being celibate and
sort of practicing abstinence, like it was a time where
like exploring a solo sexual practice taught me so much
about what I want.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
It really helped me like uncover how to have good sex.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
If that makes sense, Yeah, it absolutely does.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Okay, Hey, our next one, Hi voice sober hope.
Speaker 7 (17:03):
I feel like this might be one that you relate
to because I'm having an issue lately, Like I consider
myself a feminist and someone who's like very sexually liberated.
I'm like, you know, we should all be having as
much sex as we want, don't have to put too
much meeting behind it, whatever, We're all having fun. But lately,
the sex that I'm having even when I try not
(17:24):
to attach too much emotion onto it leaves me like
really emotionally drained, or I realize I'm like having sex
that I don't actually want to have. So I guess
what I'm asking is how do I have sex that
I know won't leave me feeling like confused or honestly
just give me an emotional hangover.
Speaker 4 (17:45):
That goes back to the question, like the topic we were
talking about earlier, where a person is like loud and
proud with their values outside and then they get to
a sexual space and they're not getting what they're worthy of.
I think one of the first steps in that, because
it's a long process, the first steps is to stop
(18:06):
when you don't want to do something anymore, to say, hey,
I need a pause or give me a second that
can give you a moment to breathe, and then process
like I'm not just going to power through this because
I want this guy to get an orgasm and then
be done. Do not get it over with and give
yourself a moment to decide, Okay, is this painful? Is
this emotionally justsregulating? Is this, you know, just uncomfortable for
(18:29):
any number of reasons Before you go back into it.
Maybe you just need to shift positions. It could be
something as simple as that, maybe you don't even like
that person. You're feeling inadequate and you're hoping that they
can make you feel desired. There's so many layers, but
if you give yourself a chance to pause, then you can,
you know, reevaluate why you're there and what you want
(18:52):
from that moment. The second part is have your homegirls
help you. So letting your homegirls know what type of
sex you want and who you want it with, and
being like, y'all hold me accountable. Like if I say
I'm going to see so and so, and you know
so and so isn't about anything that I want, be like,
hey girl, can you come over here instead and help me,
(19:13):
like do this other thing? Because don't go over there.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Right, don't walk into a situation that you know is
going to leave you feel in some kind of way.
And I do think one of the things like that
I'm even curious about personally, it's just like that sort
of like morning after. I don't know if it's shame,
I don't know if it's loneliness, regret. Yeah, what's your
(19:38):
advice for people who sort of like have sex. Maybe
it wasn't that, it wasn't that bad. I guess it
was just fine, But the next day leaves them feeling
like disregulated or something like so maybe disconnected. Like what's
your advice to people for sort of that day after.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
When you decide what the experience is that can inform
what you do next. So you wake up the next
morning beside this person, or you go home and you
wake up and you're like, I need to cuddle with
this person.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
What the fuck?
Speaker 4 (20:08):
You know?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Right right?
Speaker 4 (20:10):
I wanted to cuddle and I get a cuddle. Yeah
I am, I'm not getting what I want in this experience.
To say, was there an opportunity where I could have
asked for what I wanted and I didn't, where I
betrayed myself? And if so, just journal a little a
little bit about where that came from. When was the
(20:31):
moment or moments where you realized, oh, I can ask
for something different and I didn't, and what stopped me
from doing that? Whatever it is, take stock of it,
Just write it down and don't necessarily change your behavior immediately,
because sometimes you just need to reflect and kind of
sit with what it was and not immediately go to
(20:53):
the next thing.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
You talk about pleasure in your book and you say
it is important to explore pleasure separate from orgasms.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Can you speak to that a little like.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
For me, orgasm isn't even in my top five of
best sexual experiences. They were pleasurable. The pleasure is in
the feeling of physical and enjoyment and arousal, and the
orgasm for me, even as a multi orgasmic person, kind
of concludes that thing that I want to extend. And
(21:51):
so ongoing pleasure is one of those ways that I
help people think about how orgasm and pleasure are different.
So orgasms can be pleasurable, but they can also be
corese They can also be like abrupt, they can also
be painful, depending on how your body contracts during the
orgasm had experience. Pleasure is delightful in your body. It
(22:13):
feels really good. Some people it's the physical pleasure, but
some people it's the connection pleasure. Some people it's the
complidence pleasure. It's like I was really good at that,
and that is rewarding. And I think that exploring what
those types of pleasure are for you can make a
big difference in how you differentiate orgasm, which is like
(22:36):
a momentary thing. Maybe it last its sixty seconds at most, but.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I guess where my head is going.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Because I mostly have sex with straight cys men, I
feel like so often their motivation is just the orgasm.
And I wish that, like more straight cysts heterosexual men
understood this idea of pleasure because one thing me and
my girlfriends kind of laugh about is so often when
(23:03):
I go home with a guy, I'll be like, we're
not going to have sex, because if I tell them
we're not going to have sex, that means I get
to do all the fun.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Stuff, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
I'm like, we get to extend all of that and
they have to like work for it.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
What are your just your thoughts on it?
Speaker 4 (23:20):
This is one of those things where studying black sexuality
really gives me in a different insight. Are the people
that you're talking about mostly white men? Yeah, there's something
to be said about. There's an orgasm gap paper that
came out. I want to say it's Grace Wetzel who
(23:43):
wrote this paper, but basically, the orgasm gap between black
women and black men is the smallest amazing. I did
focus groups with black men that was my dissertation research
and then some earlier research I did with younger black
men college age black men was like I felt best
when I did an orgasm because I knew I was
(24:04):
giving her pleasure and I don't want her to walk
away from this experience with me feeling like she wasted
her time. That is important to me. So the best
experience that they talk about was where they didn't even
come because they were lasting a long time. They were
in the gate, like that was important to them. I
don't know if that's the case for white men. I
would have to ask them, and I haven't done any
(24:26):
studies where I asked them, but I do know that
the orgasm gets larger.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
In my experience. It is not that it is not
their thought process.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
I'm like I could attest.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
They don't think that way, which makes sense. I think again,
if we go back to those systems, it's just like
they are rewarded for not putting anyone else's experience before
their own, and the way the world they think is
structured for them holds them back in that way. Just
(25:03):
thinking about this orgasm gap between like black men and
black women and how black men prioritize pleasure for women.
It reminded me of the movie Centers, because I feel
like in the movie Sinners there was more eating box
propaganda than.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
I have seen in my life.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
And I was like, wow, like in that movie they
really sort of like I don't know, it sort of
lines up for me, like this research and this like
amazing black film about like it prioritizes women's pleasures.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
So it all checks out for me.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
Bryan, I literally you a me too.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
That was like such an amazing movie in so many ways.
What do you think is the most important thing for
us all to unlearn when it comes to sex?
Speaker 4 (25:54):
Okay, So me and my husband had a year of celibacy,
and it was after we had already had sexual experiences
with each other, and he was like, you know, really
deep into his Christian walk, and I was like, well, look,
if you want me to join you in that, we're
gonna have to go all the way. I would not
(26:17):
do that again.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
And I'll tell you you did it for a year.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
A year.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
I had a mis interpretation of what Christianity was inviting
me to do. What I thought it was going to
do was broker me access to the love I wanted,
the type of relationship structure I wanted, and I thought
that access and having those things would make me a
(26:46):
better person. So just investing in this idea of elitism
in general was what I had to learn. Like being
married is better than being single, being able to commit
to abstinence is better than busted wide, you know, like.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Yeah, that's so funny, that true.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
None of it was true. Like together, we've been together
for a decade and we both looked back on that time,
like what were we thinking? Because we have learned so
much together.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
That's so funny.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Did that year get you all closer? Like by the
end of it, Like do you feel like you grew
together in that time? Or was it just kind of
a time of like like did you walk away from
it just kind of being like what was that?
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Like what do we do?
Speaker 4 (27:34):
Like I guess what I'm saying is I think we
would have grown together either way, and maybe there would
have been different ways we grew in different ways that
you know, we would still have to learn today.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
And can I also ask you celibacy It's like such
a vague word, right, It's like sometimes celibacy is like
only no penetration. Sometimes it's like truly everything top to bottom.
Can I ask what y'all were practicing in that way?
Speaker 4 (28:05):
Mm hmm, Like we were kissing and making out and
that was for a year. There was no worl no fingers,
no licking, like none of the goodies.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
That Wow, I need you to actually like write a
book about this year for.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Me, because there's this like idea, this script, and of
course it comes from purity culture. It comes from like
Christian ideals. And I don't think those things are necessarily wrong.
I just think they were not right for me. And
I bought into it because I thought it would make
me better or make my relationship and it did not.
(28:45):
So if I wrote a book about that, that would
be very no.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
I mean, well, you're like preaching to the choir a
little bit because this entire Boys Soover journey was inspired
to give up sex for a year and I could
not do it, and I thought it was and I
thought it was gonna fix me too, you know what
I mean, Like like like I said, I was, like
I realized, I was like, oh, I started having sex
too young, like and I kept it like a really
(29:10):
big secret for so long and when I sort of
like realized, oh my god, I was so young when
this happened, and I like fully went into like secrecy
shame mode for the past like fifteen years. I like
not untangled that yet, you know. I just that's when
I decided to like take a step back, and I
(29:31):
started googling, like what's a normal age to start having sex?
Because I was just wondering, like, is thirteen? Is it
so not? Like I still kind of as a young adult,
had like so much shame around it, and I was
wondering if you could speak to like why that is
why having sex at a young age is so stigmatized
(29:52):
and how you see it now.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
I think it's stigmatized because we don't treat kids as
if they have decision making power. We want to protect
them from possible negative consequences of sex before your prefrontal
core tex has developed. We feel, as adults shame about sex,
(30:16):
and so we like to just sprinkle other people with it.
But there's also like an agist capitalist underlying piece of that,
where it's like you don't have money to take care
of sexual responsibilities, so you certainly shouldn't be having no sex,
And we see those ideas get translated to poor people
who are grown disading people, And so I think there's
(30:40):
a lot that goes into that instead of preparing kids
and teens in particular with all the knowledge they need
to have and being a source of information and not
shame for them. So one thing I end up asking
kids is how will you know when the time is
right for you? What are the things you're looking for?
At least it gives them permission to be sexually curious
(31:03):
with an adult that can be trusted.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah, and to just be honest about those feelings, because
I think the honest truth about like middle school and
adolescence and like that age is like you're thinking about it,
And if you're thinking about it and you're not talking
to anybody about it, that's just not helpful, Like you
know what I mean, Like you got to have somebody
(31:26):
to like seek some counsel with. How do you think
somebody can walk away from a moment like that where
they feel like some deep shame about a sexual experience
and like metabolize it into a way that gives them
kind of more confidence.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
I think the way we talk to ourselves verbally and
nonverbally makes a big difference in shame. I don't usually
expect people to come out of shame just because they
want to, because it's one of those deeply rooted emotions.
But I do invite people to talk back to the
shame m So it's like, Okay, the emotion of shame
(32:05):
comes up when you think about this thing, what's something
that you can say to yourself to affirm your inherent worthiness,
your curiosity at the time. So I had my sexual
debut at fourteen. I don't have any shame about it,
but at a time season when I did, it could
be Hey, I was really curious, and I was thoughtful
(32:26):
about when I had it and who I had it with,
And so I love that experience for myself. So even
if I'm holding the emotion of shame, I'm also holding
some really positive messaging and framing around it until the
emotion of shame starts to dissipate. So not to just
exactly like take somebody out of shame, I think that
just takes time. But how do you speak to how
(32:48):
do you affirm and have compassion for and love for
the self you were then and the grown person you
are now so that you don't replicate the shame. Because
a lot of people get into like shaming other people
because they feel like they were shamed.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Or they have like yeah, no capacity to talk down
their own shame, and so how could they have a
capacity to like give someone else that same or like
any kind of like grace or understanding.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
This is huge for me. I'm like, I'm gonna start
to like the idea.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Of speaking to your shame and like really wrestling with it.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Don't wrestle with it though, That's what I'm saying. Don't
even wrestle have compassion for it, because wrestling with it
is a lot of us try to do like I
shouldn't be feeling that. Get out of here. And it's like,
it makes perfect sense that you would feel shame if
you grew up in purity culture. So I get why
that's still with you.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
My last question, how do we unlearn our sexual scripts?
What can someone do to really sort of detach from
what they've been taught about sex?
Speaker 4 (33:59):
You need to first identify what you do want and
how you want it. So giving yourself room and like
a lot of people have never been asked, and a
lot of people don't make room for themselves too. Just
write out here are all the things that I want.
Here are the activities that I want to do and try.
Here are the things I don't want, so a gues no,
maybe so is the easiest way to do that? And
(34:21):
then how you want it? Like do you want your
sex to be passionate? Do you want your sex to
be safe? Do you want your sex to be loving?
Do you want it to be nasty?
Speaker 7 (34:31):
Like?
Speaker 4 (34:32):
Figure out how you want it to be. That's your
first step, So go for yourself. Then if your partner
to hear that with someone else, so then that means
you have to choose courage in having the audacity to
communicate what you want right. Once you do it, then
you gotta practice. Do you got to try? Fuck it up?
Try mess up, try and keep going in the practice
(34:56):
of it. And I think that is how we get there.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
I'm gonna call that girlfriend of mine after this and
check in on her and see.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
How that vibrator has been helping.
Speaker 4 (35:12):
So it's been totally good to have it.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Have you been helpful? Yeah? Yeah, it's been totally helpful.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
And I think I did have a lot of nerves
around sex in general because it never was.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
So good, so it was like such a chore.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
Yeah, And so it's been like really really nice. Like
whenever he's like, do you want to have sex, I'm like, actually, yeah,
because this will be really easy. And so we used
it a lot at first because we just like were
getting used to it and like getting used to me
like not feeling stressed about telling him what to do
and how to do it, but just like it was
(35:47):
just like an automatic.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
It's gonna work so easy.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
Yeah, like easy, easy, easy, easy.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
I don't desire to use it by myself. I want
to want to have sex with him always. Yeah, And
so like I think it's appropriate if we were out
of town or like a part but if we're together, like,
I don't feel like there's any reason why I should
be like you know what, I'm not going to invite
you into this moment.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Yes, totally.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
We use it intermittently now because I feel like it's
opened up the door to be able to say, like
I like this, and so I want you to do
this like this language.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Wow, I'm really so happy for you. Yeah, me too.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
It's been so good.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I really hope that man who told me my friend
shouldn't get a vibrator is listening. Being more open and
in touch with what you want leads to better sex
for everyone. That's what I'm taking away from my conversation
with doctor Candice today, and I hope you got a
lot out of it too. Join me next week for
more conversations where we can unlearn and heal together. Talk
(36:48):
to y'all next week. Boy Sover is a production of
iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host, Hopewordard. Our executive producers are
Christina Everett and Julie Pinero. Our supervising producer is Emily
(37:12):
Meronoff engineering by Bahid Fraser and mixing and mastering.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
By Aboo Zafar.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
If you liked this episode, please tell a friend and
don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to Boy Sober
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get
your favorite shows.
Thanks for talking to me about this. Yeah, totally.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I know it's vulnerable, it is, but it's I feel
very comfortable. I'm on a mission to make sure everyone's
having good sex, and that starts by talking about it.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
I had all these feelings and stuff, but I'd never
talked about them or anything, so I didn't really know.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
What to do with basically sex in general.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
And I especially love talking about it with the friends
I grew up with who had similar religious experiences as me.
Some of them are married now, and even years into
their marriages, they're still unpacking all of their shame around sex.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Growing up, it wasn't an open conversation, so you're just
like supposed to figure it out on your own.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
And a lot of that is anything.
Speaker 3 (00:50):
In the world where you're just supposed to figure it
out on your own, like it's never going to end well.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
I feel like that's.
Speaker 3 (00:55):
Why sex is so so much gray area, so much
us understood, it's so whatever, because it's like a language
where you're never taught.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
You're doing all these things wrong or right, and you
have no idea, and so you don't know what's good,
what's bad, what's anything.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
You don't have to figure out sex all on your own,
because this week we have someone who can help. I'm
Hopewitdard and welcome to Boysover, a space where we're learning
(01:32):
and unlearning all the myths we're taught about love and relationships.
What is good sex and how do we have it?
I'm sure that's a question everyone is dying to know.
(01:54):
The truth is there's not just one answer. Hot, fun,
and pleasurable sex is different depending on who you are,
and it takes time and exploration to figure out what
all those things mean to you. Enter doctor Candace Nicole
Hargin's author of the book Good Sex Stories, Science and
(02:14):
Strategies for Sexual Liberation. That term sexual liberation is what
most interested me about her work, because I'm desperate to
be freed of all the lies I've been taught about sex,
like that it's dangerous and it should be secretive or shameful.
If you were brought up believing these things too, this
conversation is for you, or even if you didn't, I'm
(02:37):
sure there's still a lot to learn and unlearn on
the road to having great sex. Hi, doctor Candace, how
are you today?
Speaker 4 (02:49):
I'm doing alrighty. How are you?
Speaker 1 (02:50):
I'm good?
Speaker 2 (02:51):
I'm excited about this for like personal reasons, you know,
for the show, but also just because like my relationship
to sex is always like I'm actively working on it.
You know, your book is called Good Sex. Can you
just walk everyone through sort of the origin story of
like how you got introduced to this world of research
and kind of your why behind it all?
Speaker 4 (03:13):
Okay, so the origin story of the framing of good
sex was too bold one. Most of the sex research
out there is about STIs HIV and I'CYM, and I
was like, these aren't even the reasons people are for
real having sex, Like, what is it that we keep
focusing on this now? Of course, later in my career
I learned that, you know, federal funders are like, we
(03:36):
want to focus on diseases, and so we'll give you
money to study diseases as opposed to the pleasurable aspects
of sex or the positive aspects of sex. And so
when I decided to focus on good sex or a
sex positive frame, wanted. I wanted to know about desire
and arousal and orgasm and pleasure and all of these
(03:56):
things that my research team and I asked people about.
Speaker 2 (04:00):
You talk about how a lot of sex research gets
the perspective from mostly like white research participants, but in
your research you focus mainly on black research participants. Can
you talk about your why of that and just what
that was like.
Speaker 4 (04:17):
It's a delight, Yeah, that's what it's like. I'll start
with what it's like. I don't know if you've ever
heard black people tell a story about set I have.
It's the best. It's the best, so it's fun to do.
I'll start with just the joyful reasons why. But also,
black people have historically been used as the sex negative benchmark.
(04:40):
So when I talked about like the sti's, HIV and
unfriended pregnancy, most of the studies are like, black people
are at a deficit in all of these areas. But
when it comes to good sex, there's so many beautiful
things in our culture that we haven't amplified enough. So
I use that as my frame because I feel like
there's a lot to be learned from the margin. So
(05:01):
not just black people, but queer people, people with disabilities,
people around age, you know, ages that are not like
in that norm. All of that is where I find
some of the best information about good sex.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
What do you think was like your most surprising takeaway
from your research.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
The thing that I think piques my curiosity right now
is people's worst sexual experiences. You learn a lot about
good sex based on how people describe their worst sex
and hearing how people overcame that experience, hearing how they
talked back to that experience, how they narrated the levity
(05:39):
they find and talking about the experience. Like, for me,
that's been the fun part, the delightful part.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Something I come across with so many women is like
they've had a negative sexual experience and they don't really
know how to move forward, how to not let it
sort of like seep into every other experience, and that
process of healing is like something I'm still trying to
(06:06):
figure out.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
Right, So after a negative experience, whop are like, I'm
never doing that again because walls go up, defenses go up,
and then sometimes you need a little bit of waldof
time to figure out like what you like and what
you don't like, and then you make your boundaries more
perm where it's like I can and want to let
(06:31):
people in again, figure sex out again on my own terms,
and I feel certain enough about who I am, what
I want, what I want to offer, what I want
to give that I can speak to that without it
feeling like threatening totally.
Speaker 2 (06:50):
I want to talk about sexual liberation. In your book,
you talk about intimate justice and erotic equity. Can you
break down those terms for me?
Speaker 4 (07:00):
Yeah, so I'll start with sexual liberation. And at the
core of it, it is authentic sexual self making in
a world that tries to constrict you from becoming an
authentic human in any way. So it's like, I know
a lot of the people that I work with and
self included, have done a lot in the realm of
(07:22):
social justice, only to come home to the injustice to
a partner who doesn't see you as worthy, who doesn't
have reverence for pleasure, enjoy, and generosity sexually in your
own life. And intimate justice is like, this is a space.
Sex is a space where liberation needs to be a
(07:45):
focus to. It's one of the places where you have
the most power to have immediate change.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
I want to talk to you about masturbation. There's so
much to like uncover there and untangle that, and you
let us study of one thousand people who had volvas right,
So this is like your terminology. So I'm assuming it's
people of all different sort of gender expression gender identity,
(08:12):
which again creates for a more well rounded perspective. What
does a study on self pleasure look like? And what
was another sort of surprising takeaway for you?
Speaker 4 (08:24):
Okay, so this was the Magic Wand and Wellness Study.
So me and sex edw with dB and my graduate assistant,
Casey V. Hill, got together with the people from Magic wand.
Everybody got a magic wand everybody was invited to abstain
(08:44):
for a week and then use the magic Wand for
a week and then have sex as usual for a week.
What we learned is that having sex solo sex or
partnered with the magic wand was when people felt closest
to who they were partnered with, like, so that partner
connection increased during that time. And I think it dispels
(09:09):
this myth that like solo sex or masturbation or using
a sex toy, even when you're having partnered sex, is
in competition with your partner. So a lot of people
have a rank order of like partnered sex way up here,
Solo sex is what you settle for when you don't
have a partner, and it's like, no, solo sex is great.
Speaker 2 (09:31):
So I sometimes worry about how much better solo sex
is for me.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Do you know what I mean? You are not alone?
I know, not alone?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
Okay, tell me more about or like, tell us the listeners.
What did you uncover in that study where you were like,
oh shit, you.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Know what I mean?
Speaker 4 (09:50):
No, I think that it wasn't even in that study.
I knew that just based on other research that most people,
most women, and most people with bulbas and in particular,
have more orgasmic sex when they're alone. It's easier for
them to, you know, figure out how to come, come
when they want to come. There are less things going
(10:12):
on in your brain sometimes where you're with yourself, and
you know, it's an opportunity to learn, like what you
like and what you don't like. So no, I think
that that wasn't. That wouldn't at all be surprising to
me when a person enjoys solo sex more, especially since
a lot of people are still figuring out their sexual
skill level.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
I have a very good friend, she's been married for
a couple of years now, and she had never used
a vibrator.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I was like, you got to do this.
Speaker 2 (10:42):
You know, And I sent her a link for one,
and it was like a small not intimidating one. And
I was telling a friend of mine about this story,
and it was a man, and he immediately got defensive,
being like, well, if she enjoys the vibe vibrator too much,
she won't want to have sex.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
With her husband. That was such a surprising take to me.
Speaker 4 (11:07):
Is that surprising to you at all? No, it's common.
It's unfortunate because when men see themselves as the only
possible vehicle for a woman's pleasure one, that's a lot
of pressure on them for them to live up to two.
Putting in competition a toy, an inanimate object that is
(11:32):
designed exclusively for her pleasure with a whole human being
who is designed for so many other things that are
valuable and amazing, Like the vibrator is your mate, y'all
are about to do this thing together, right, They're seeing
it as a competitor. It's going to be hard on you.
It's going to be hard on you as the partner
(11:55):
because it's you're not exclusively designed for her pleasure.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Okay, doctor Candice, we have something a little different for
you now. We ask listeners to send in questions they
had about their sex lives, and we want you to
give them some advice.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
Here's the first question.
Speaker 5 (12:27):
Hi Hope, Hi boy sober. I am calling in with
a question about intimacy. So I've noticed that sex by
myself has always felt better than when I'm having sex
with my partner. I'm too scared to tell them because
I don't want to make them insecure, and honestly, I'm
just really annoyed with having to tell them what I
(12:50):
want all the time, having to explain myself. What would
be your advice?
Speaker 4 (12:54):
Pretty coming for there to be three levels of threat
or fear people experience when it comes to sexual communication.
So there's a self threat, which is like you don't
want to seem incompetent or inexperience. There's the partner threat,
which is like I don't want to hurt my partner's feelings.
I know their ego is tied up in this. Or
(13:15):
there's relationship threat, which is like I shouldn't have to
tell a person things like the relationship isn't probably good
if I have to say this, And so it sounds
like that person is experiencing partner level threat. It makes
sense to have that fear if you've experienced telling the
truth and being sanctioned for it before you are worthy
(13:36):
of an honest conversation, and you don't have to say
it mean just because you need to say what you mean, right,
I think it's okay to have a normal, honest conversation
about it. And this is the part people hate, But
I'm a whole ass psychologist. The amount of times it
takes people to hear something before they change their behavior
is extensive. So it does take time and you will
(13:59):
have to repeat your self. And it's not that they're
being childish. It really does take human beings a long
time to change their behavior. Damn. I love that.
Speaker 2 (14:07):
It's like, give people a little bit of grace.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
Now, if you don't like them, let them go. But
if you like them, if.
Speaker 2 (14:16):
The juice like the squeeze, you know, release it. But
if yeah, please, Okay, I'm gonna go to the next one.
Speaker 6 (14:24):
So my partner masturbates so all the time, and honestly,
it makes me pretty angry. I feel like it's cheating
in a way, especially when he's watching porn. I don't
personally master debate or watch porn, so I just don't
understand why he's doing it so.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
Much all the time. So I'm wondering am.
Speaker 6 (14:50):
I wrong to feel that way or is there just
something that I'm not seeing?
Speaker 4 (14:56):
So they do need to have a conversation about what
cheating means to both of them. And we can't hold
our standard or our preference for how we treat our
solo sex life for someone else, even if we're in
relationship with them. So it may be that you're not
getting the sexual attention you want. That is a necessary conversation, like, hey,
(15:16):
I feel like your masturbation is getting in the way
of us having sex. That is fair game, but for
them to enjoy a solo sex practice, it is not
necessarily a bad thing. And maybe having a conversation about
it where you share, like where those feelings come from
for you, whether you're shaming your partner, whether you have
(15:38):
some ideas about solo sex that are based innth. You
should have those conversations, but be reflective about yourself because
it sounds a little bit judging and a little bit shamey,
and we don't want to yet that easier Now, maybe
you can try to like some of the things that
they like. Maybe you like audio erotica instead of visual porn.
(16:01):
Explore some of those options, just for yourself to see
what might pique your interest if that's something that you
would like to try before you kind of like try
to stop somebody else's sexual behavior that's consensual and not
harmful to them.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
I love just the language solo sexual practice because that
gives the whole idea and the whole world of it
so much legitimacy, where I feel like so many especially
women like don't feel like that is a necessary practice
for them. I don't see it as like a practice.
(16:37):
I know for me that my time being celibate and
sort of practicing abstinence, like it was a time where
like exploring a solo sexual practice taught me so much
about what I want.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
It really helped me like uncover how to have good sex.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
If that makes sense, Yeah, it absolutely does.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Okay, Hey, our next one, Hi voice sober hope.
Speaker 7 (17:03):
I feel like this might be one that you relate
to because I'm having an issue lately, Like I consider
myself a feminist and someone who's like very sexually liberated.
I'm like, you know, we should all be having as
much sex as we want, don't have to put too
much meeting behind it, whatever, We're all having fun. But lately,
the sex that I'm having even when I try not
(17:24):
to attach too much emotion onto it leaves me like
really emotionally drained, or I realize I'm like having sex
that I don't actually want to have. So I guess
what I'm asking is how do I have sex that
I know won't leave me feeling like confused or honestly
just give me an emotional hangover.
Speaker 4 (17:45):
That goes back to the question, like the topic we were
talking about earlier, where a person is like loud and
proud with their values outside and then they get to
a sexual space and they're not getting what they're worthy of.
I think one of the first steps in that, because
it's a long process, the first steps is to stop
(18:06):
when you don't want to do something anymore, to say, hey,
I need a pause or give me a second that
can give you a moment to breathe, and then process
like I'm not just going to power through this because
I want this guy to get an orgasm and then
be done. Do not get it over with and give
yourself a moment to decide, Okay, is this painful? Is
this emotionally justsregulating? Is this, you know, just uncomfortable for
(18:29):
any number of reasons Before you go back into it.
Maybe you just need to shift positions. It could be
something as simple as that, maybe you don't even like
that person. You're feeling inadequate and you're hoping that they
can make you feel desired. There's so many layers, but
if you give yourself a chance to pause, then you can,
you know, reevaluate why you're there and what you want
(18:52):
from that moment. The second part is have your homegirls
help you. So letting your homegirls know what type of
sex you want and who you want it with, and
being like, y'all hold me accountable. Like if I say
I'm going to see so and so, and you know
so and so isn't about anything that I want, be like,
hey girl, can you come over here instead and help me,
(19:13):
like do this other thing? Because don't go over there.
Speaker 2 (19:17):
Right, don't walk into a situation that you know is
going to leave you feel in some kind of way.
And I do think one of the things like that
I'm even curious about personally, it's just like that sort
of like morning after. I don't know if it's shame,
I don't know if it's loneliness, regret. Yeah, what's your
(19:38):
advice for people who sort of like have sex. Maybe
it wasn't that, it wasn't that bad. I guess it
was just fine, But the next day leaves them feeling
like disregulated or something like so maybe disconnected. Like what's
your advice to people for sort of that day after.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
When you decide what the experience is that can inform
what you do next. So you wake up the next
morning beside this person, or you go home and you
wake up and you're like, I need to cuddle with
this person.
Speaker 1 (20:08):
What the fuck?
Speaker 4 (20:08):
You know?
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Right right?
Speaker 4 (20:10):
I wanted to cuddle and I get a cuddle. Yeah
I am, I'm not getting what I want in this experience.
To say, was there an opportunity where I could have
asked for what I wanted and I didn't, where I
betrayed myself? And if so, just journal a little a
little bit about where that came from. When was the
(20:31):
moment or moments where you realized, oh, I can ask
for something different and I didn't, and what stopped me
from doing that? Whatever it is, take stock of it,
Just write it down and don't necessarily change your behavior immediately,
because sometimes you just need to reflect and kind of
sit with what it was and not immediately go to
(20:53):
the next thing.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
You talk about pleasure in your book and you say
it is important to explore pleasure separate from orgasms.
Speaker 1 (21:26):
Can you speak to that a little like.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
For me, orgasm isn't even in my top five of
best sexual experiences. They were pleasurable. The pleasure is in
the feeling of physical and enjoyment and arousal, and the
orgasm for me, even as a multi orgasmic person, kind
of concludes that thing that I want to extend. And
(21:51):
so ongoing pleasure is one of those ways that I
help people think about how orgasm and pleasure are different.
So orgasms can be pleasurable, but they can also be
corese They can also be like abrupt, they can also
be painful, depending on how your body contracts during the
orgasm had experience. Pleasure is delightful in your body. It
(22:13):
feels really good. Some people it's the physical pleasure, but
some people it's the connection pleasure. Some people it's the
complidence pleasure. It's like I was really good at that,
and that is rewarding. And I think that exploring what
those types of pleasure are for you can make a
big difference in how you differentiate orgasm, which is like
(22:36):
a momentary thing. Maybe it last its sixty seconds at most, but.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
I guess where my head is going.
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Because I mostly have sex with straight cys men, I
feel like so often their motivation is just the orgasm.
And I wish that, like more straight cysts heterosexual men
understood this idea of pleasure because one thing me and
my girlfriends kind of laugh about is so often when
(23:03):
I go home with a guy, I'll be like, we're
not going to have sex, because if I tell them
we're not going to have sex, that means I get
to do all the fun.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Stuff, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
I'm like, we get to extend all of that and
they have to like work for it.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
What are your just your thoughts on it?
Speaker 4 (23:20):
This is one of those things where studying black sexuality
really gives me in a different insight. Are the people
that you're talking about mostly white men? Yeah, there's something
to be said about. There's an orgasm gap paper that
came out. I want to say it's Grace Wetzel who
(23:43):
wrote this paper, but basically, the orgasm gap between black
women and black men is the smallest amazing. I did
focus groups with black men that was my dissertation research
and then some earlier research I did with younger black
men college age black men was like I felt best
when I did an orgasm because I knew I was
(24:04):
giving her pleasure and I don't want her to walk
away from this experience with me feeling like she wasted
her time. That is important to me. So the best
experience that they talk about was where they didn't even
come because they were lasting a long time. They were
in the gate, like that was important to them. I
don't know if that's the case for white men. I
would have to ask them, and I haven't done any
(24:26):
studies where I asked them, but I do know that
the orgasm gets larger.
Speaker 1 (24:30):
In my experience. It is not that it is not
their thought process.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
I'm like I could attest.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
They don't think that way, which makes sense. I think again,
if we go back to those systems, it's just like
they are rewarded for not putting anyone else's experience before
their own, and the way the world they think is
structured for them holds them back in that way. Just
(25:03):
thinking about this orgasm gap between like black men and
black women and how black men prioritize pleasure for women.
It reminded me of the movie Centers, because I feel
like in the movie Sinners there was more eating box
propaganda than.
Speaker 4 (25:19):
I have seen in my life.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
And I was like, wow, like in that movie they
really sort of like I don't know, it sort of
lines up for me, like this research and this like
amazing black film about like it prioritizes women's pleasures.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
So it all checks out for me.
Speaker 4 (25:39):
Bryan, I literally you a me too.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
That was like such an amazing movie in so many ways.
What do you think is the most important thing for
us all to unlearn when it comes to sex?
Speaker 4 (25:54):
Okay, So me and my husband had a year of celibacy,
and it was after we had already had sexual experiences
with each other, and he was like, you know, really
deep into his Christian walk, and I was like, well, look,
if you want me to join you in that, we're
gonna have to go all the way. I would not
(26:17):
do that again.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
And I'll tell you you did it for a year.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
A year.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:24):
I had a mis interpretation of what Christianity was inviting
me to do. What I thought it was going to
do was broker me access to the love I wanted,
the type of relationship structure I wanted, and I thought
that access and having those things would make me a
(26:46):
better person. So just investing in this idea of elitism
in general was what I had to learn. Like being
married is better than being single, being able to commit
to abstinence is better than busted wide, you know, like.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Yeah, that's so funny, that true.
Speaker 4 (27:09):
None of it was true. Like together, we've been together
for a decade and we both looked back on that time,
like what were we thinking? Because we have learned so
much together.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
That's so funny.
Speaker 2 (27:20):
Did that year get you all closer? Like by the
end of it, Like do you feel like you grew
together in that time? Or was it just kind of
a time of like like did you walk away from
it just kind of being like what was that?
Speaker 1 (27:33):
Like what do we do?
Speaker 4 (27:34):
Like I guess what I'm saying is I think we
would have grown together either way, and maybe there would
have been different ways we grew in different ways that
you know, we would still have to learn today.
Speaker 2 (27:49):
And can I also ask you celibacy It's like such
a vague word, right, It's like sometimes celibacy is like
only no penetration. Sometimes it's like truly everything top to bottom.
Can I ask what y'all were practicing in that way?
Speaker 4 (28:05):
Mm hmm, Like we were kissing and making out and
that was for a year. There was no worl no fingers,
no licking, like none of the goodies.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
That Wow, I need you to actually like write a
book about this year for.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Me, because there's this like idea, this script, and of
course it comes from purity culture. It comes from like
Christian ideals. And I don't think those things are necessarily wrong.
I just think they were not right for me. And
I bought into it because I thought it would make
me better or make my relationship and it did not.
(28:45):
So if I wrote a book about that, that would
be very no.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
I mean, well, you're like preaching to the choir a
little bit because this entire Boys Soover journey was inspired
to give up sex for a year and I could
not do it, and I thought it was and I
thought it was gonna fix me too, you know what
I mean, Like like like I said, I was, like
I realized, I was like, oh, I started having sex
too young, like and I kept it like a really
(29:10):
big secret for so long and when I sort of
like realized, oh my god, I was so young when
this happened, and I like fully went into like secrecy
shame mode for the past like fifteen years. I like
not untangled that yet, you know. I just that's when
I decided to like take a step back, and I
(29:31):
started googling, like what's a normal age to start having sex?
Because I was just wondering, like, is thirteen? Is it
so not? Like I still kind of as a young adult,
had like so much shame around it, and I was
wondering if you could speak to like why that is
why having sex at a young age is so stigmatized
(29:52):
and how you see it now.
Speaker 4 (29:55):
I think it's stigmatized because we don't treat kids as
if they have decision making power. We want to protect
them from possible negative consequences of sex before your prefrontal
core tex has developed. We feel, as adults shame about sex,
(30:16):
and so we like to just sprinkle other people with it.
But there's also like an agist capitalist underlying piece of that,
where it's like you don't have money to take care
of sexual responsibilities, so you certainly shouldn't be having no sex,
And we see those ideas get translated to poor people
who are grown disading people, And so I think there's
(30:40):
a lot that goes into that instead of preparing kids
and teens in particular with all the knowledge they need
to have and being a source of information and not
shame for them. So one thing I end up asking
kids is how will you know when the time is
right for you? What are the things you're looking for?
At least it gives them permission to be sexually curious
(31:03):
with an adult that can be trusted.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
Yeah, and to just be honest about those feelings, because
I think the honest truth about like middle school and
adolescence and like that age is like you're thinking about it,
And if you're thinking about it and you're not talking
to anybody about it, that's just not helpful, Like you
know what I mean, Like you got to have somebody
(31:26):
to like seek some counsel with. How do you think
somebody can walk away from a moment like that where
they feel like some deep shame about a sexual experience
and like metabolize it into a way that gives them
kind of more confidence.
Speaker 4 (31:44):
I think the way we talk to ourselves verbally and
nonverbally makes a big difference in shame. I don't usually
expect people to come out of shame just because they
want to, because it's one of those deeply rooted emotions.
But I do invite people to talk back to the
shame m So it's like, Okay, the emotion of shame
(32:05):
comes up when you think about this thing, what's something
that you can say to yourself to affirm your inherent worthiness,
your curiosity at the time. So I had my sexual
debut at fourteen. I don't have any shame about it,
but at a time season when I did, it could
be Hey, I was really curious, and I was thoughtful
(32:26):
about when I had it and who I had it with,
And so I love that experience for myself. So even
if I'm holding the emotion of shame, I'm also holding
some really positive messaging and framing around it until the
emotion of shame starts to dissipate. So not to just
exactly like take somebody out of shame, I think that
just takes time. But how do you speak to how
(32:48):
do you affirm and have compassion for and love for
the self you were then and the grown person you
are now so that you don't replicate the shame. Because
a lot of people get into like shaming other people
because they feel like they were shamed.
Speaker 2 (33:02):
Or they have like yeah, no capacity to talk down
their own shame, and so how could they have a
capacity to like give someone else that same or like
any kind of like grace or understanding.
Speaker 4 (33:19):
This is huge for me. I'm like, I'm gonna start
to like the idea.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Of speaking to your shame and like really wrestling with it.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
Don't wrestle with it though, That's what I'm saying. Don't
even wrestle have compassion for it, because wrestling with it
is a lot of us try to do like I
shouldn't be feeling that. Get out of here. And it's like,
it makes perfect sense that you would feel shame if
you grew up in purity culture. So I get why
that's still with you.
Speaker 2 (33:47):
My last question, how do we unlearn our sexual scripts?
What can someone do to really sort of detach from
what they've been taught about sex?
Speaker 4 (33:59):
You need to first identify what you do want and
how you want it. So giving yourself room and like
a lot of people have never been asked, and a
lot of people don't make room for themselves too. Just
write out here are all the things that I want.
Here are the activities that I want to do and try.
Here are the things I don't want, so a gues no,
maybe so is the easiest way to do that? And
(34:21):
then how you want it? Like do you want your
sex to be passionate? Do you want your sex to
be safe? Do you want your sex to be loving?
Do you want it to be nasty?
Speaker 7 (34:31):
Like?
Speaker 4 (34:32):
Figure out how you want it to be. That's your
first step, So go for yourself. Then if your partner
to hear that with someone else, so then that means
you have to choose courage in having the audacity to
communicate what you want right. Once you do it, then
you gotta practice. Do you got to try? Fuck it up?
Try mess up, try and keep going in the practice
(34:56):
of it. And I think that is how we get there.
Speaker 2 (35:00):
I'm gonna call that girlfriend of mine after this and
check in on her and see.
Speaker 1 (35:04):
How that vibrator has been helping.
Speaker 4 (35:12):
So it's been totally good to have it.
Speaker 1 (35:15):
Have you been helpful? Yeah? Yeah, it's been totally helpful.
Speaker 3 (35:19):
And I think I did have a lot of nerves
around sex in general because it never was.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
So good, so it was like such a chore.
Speaker 3 (35:26):
Yeah, And so it's been like really really nice. Like
whenever he's like, do you want to have sex, I'm like, actually, yeah,
because this will be really easy. And so we used
it a lot at first because we just like were
getting used to it and like getting used to me
like not feeling stressed about telling him what to do
and how to do it, but just like it was
(35:47):
just like an automatic.
Speaker 1 (35:49):
It's gonna work so easy.
Speaker 4 (35:51):
Yeah, like easy, easy, easy, easy.
Speaker 3 (35:53):
I don't desire to use it by myself. I want
to want to have sex with him always. Yeah, And
so like I think it's appropriate if we were out
of town or like a part but if we're together, like,
I don't feel like there's any reason why I should
be like you know what, I'm not going to invite
you into this moment.
Speaker 1 (36:09):
Yes, totally.
Speaker 3 (36:11):
We use it intermittently now because I feel like it's
opened up the door to be able to say, like
I like this, and so I want you to do
this like this language.
Speaker 1 (36:19):
Wow, I'm really so happy for you. Yeah, me too.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
It's been so good.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I really hope that man who told me my friend
shouldn't get a vibrator is listening. Being more open and
in touch with what you want leads to better sex
for everyone. That's what I'm taking away from my conversation
with doctor Candice today, and I hope you got a
lot out of it too. Join me next week for
more conversations where we can unlearn and heal together. Talk
(36:48):
to y'all next week. Boy Sover is a production of
iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host, Hopewordard. Our executive producers are
Christina Everett and Julie Pinero. Our supervising producer is Emily
(37:12):
Meronoff engineering by Bahid Fraser and mixing and mastering.
Speaker 1 (37:17):
By Aboo Zafar.
Speaker 2 (37:19):
If you liked this episode, please tell a friend and
don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to Boy Sober
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and wherever you get
your favorite shows.
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