August 20, 2025 • 41 mins
If you’re familiar with Jensen McRae’s music, you know it’s filled with details of past loves: navy bedsheets, pilgrim ashtrays, trips out east. Her songs hit you to your core — but who were the loves that inspired them? The singer-songwriter tells Hope about some of her past relationships that inspired hit songs like "Massachusetts," why we should have realistic expectations in romantic relationships, and what it’s like now dating as a public figure.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, beautiful listeners. We're busy working on our next episodes,
and we have a question for you. What's a red
flag you love to ignore? Mine is when a guy
breadcrumbs me terrible. Send us your answers by leaving us
a voicemail at five one eight eight three seven six
(00:20):
two three seven, or email us a voice note at
boy Sober Podcast at gmail dot com. Okay, now on
with the episode.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I'm a big Taro girl.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I historically have sometimes used it when I'm like down bad,
but recently have been using it like for fun, like
just as like a way to connect with people and
be social.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I'm like, yeah, so, what is there anything? I mean,
I'm assuming we want to know. I'm assuming you want
to know about love?
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Yeah? Sure, tell me. That's not just any Tara reader.
That's singer, songwriter and my sweet friend Jensen McCrae. Last
week she came into the studio to chat about dating
and relationships and apparently tell me what's in the cards
for my love life. I love how you're shuffling, shuffling,
shuffling and then pulling.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Well you're supposed to kind of in theory, be shuffling
and wait for and there she is. Okay, we got
one out, so this is the love. We've got the
five of pentacles.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Okay, I'll say what I see. Okay, we've got one, two, three,
four stars. We've got a mother holding a child and
it's looking like they are either resting or mourning. Honestly,
can I say what I think right now? Yeah, I
don't think I'm ready for love right now. So if
that's what this is, that's a good thing.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I swear to God. This is what this says. It
may seem right now, you'll never find the love you
are searching for.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Walk off because I said today and last night I
said I do not believe in love at this point
in my life. And I know that's stupid to say
at twenty nine, but I'm like, I don't think I'm gonna.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Do it says unfortunately, this attitude can be a self
fulfilling prophecy.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Okay, chill, and it.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Says, this may be a difficult time, but it's more
important than ever to draw close together instead of pulling apart.
So I guess lean on your people, I would say.
And also like this is I think the cards are
saying this is not a permanent situation. That's the season
you're in right now.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah, And I understand that because I'm like, it's not
that I don't believe in love it anymore, but I'm
just like, it's not in the cards for me right now.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
That is fascinating. Wow. Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
In today's episode, Jensen and I invoke the spirits of
romance and get into it about our love lives. I'm
hopewordered and welcome to voiceover a space where we're learning
and un learning all the myths we're taught about love
(02:39):
and relationships. If you're familiar with Jensen McCrae's work, you
know it's filled with details of past loves, navy bed sheets,
pilgrim ash trays, trips out East. She's the kind of
(03:01):
writer that's not afraid to be specific and vulnerable, which
hits me right to my core. In fact, a lot
of people connect with her work, probably because it's all
about love and heartbreak, the things that we're all navigating.
Just this past April, Jensen put out her second album
I Don't Know How But They Found Me, and her
song Massachusetts was featured in Lena Dunham's new show Too Much.
(03:24):
On top of that, Spike Lee recently noticed her talent,
commissioning a song for his new film Highest to Lowest
and casting her in her acting debut alongside Denzel Washington.
Big things are happening for Jensen. Jensen and I have
been internet friends for a while now, connecting over dating
(03:44):
stories and what it's like to be public about your
love life online. I was so excited to finally get
to meet her in person to get deeper into our
experiences around dating and relationships. Jensen, welcome to boys over.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Oh thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
I feel so lucky that you're here.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Oh my, I'm so happy.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
No, seriously, thank you. I do want to know like
your career highlight up to this point.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I mean honestly, Well, as we're recording this. Last night,
I went to my first movie premiere for my first
movie role, and so filming Highest to Lowist with Denzel
Washington was insane. Talk about meeting heroes that was really wild.
I can't wait to see the movie. I hope yeah,
everyone goes. This is not a promo tour, but everyone
I'm like clapping in the theater. I just stopped. My mom.
(04:32):
She's like, my allowed to scream and you come on screen.
I was like, no, but she has to. We just
held hands. We held hands, were squeze.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Your mom was there with you last night. And how's
your relationship with your mom?
Speaker 2 (04:41):
We are so close? Okay, my best friend.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Oh that's inspiring. Yeah, I want to ask your parents
still together?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yes, very madly in love?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
In love?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah? Did they have a secret my mom would a
separate bathrooms and communication? Well yeah, I mean they I
think probably like she's never bored, like he makes her
laugh all the time, and he's just like very eccentric
and I think that helps. Yeah, and they really respect
each other. Like my mom was like, no matter what,
the person that you're with forever, like you both need
(05:10):
to respect each other. To do whatever your job is
in the home, whoever's staying home with the kids, if
someone's staying home with kids, whoever's going out and making money.
If there's one person doing that, whatever your domains are,
you have to really respect and trust that person that
they can handle it, and like not micromanaging them, not
talking down to them, like you have to really trust
that they can handle it.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah, that sounds about right. My parents did the opposite.
Did they complete opposite?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
In many such cases.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, in many cases. Yes, I wanted to ask your type.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Oh my type? Right, So unfortunately it is men from
New England. No, unfortunately, Massachusetts is not a lie, that's
that's just truth.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Describe them to me. I've never dated someone from New England.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Well, I mean the guys that I have liked, like
It's the reason I think I like men from New
England is like a quickness, even if they're not highly
educated or they didn't care about school, It's like there's
just a quickness, there's a wit. And also they tend
to talk fast than men from the West Coast. There's
a sleepiness about a men from the West Coast totally.
It's like a very sleepy kind of a relaxed slow vibe. Yes. Yeah,
(06:08):
and these the men from New England, they can be
very chill, but they're yappers and that's.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
What I need. So you like someone funny yes, okay?
And a little bit mean?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah? Well yes, well yes, I think it's it's like
a they're mean, they're not mean to me, and but
then eventually they of course turn and than they are.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Eventually there's something that we all love about, like dating
someone who's mean, but only nice to us.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Well, here's the crazy part is that like these men
for the most part, they are like the charmer and
the beloved of their like friend group. But there's like
a mean undercurrent. There's something there that's a little bit
like snarky with it. The sharpness. Yes, yeah, it's the way,
it's the sharpness. Yeah, I don't know what that is.
I'm trying to. Well, I watch Goodwell Hunting at sixteen,
and I do think that was part of it, and
that was it well because the boy that I was
obsessed with when I was sixteen was like, you remind
(06:50):
me of Skyler from Goodwell Hunting, and I'd never seen
the movie. So I went and watched it and I
was like, first of all, that's very good compliment, right,
mini drivers everything. And then second of all, I was like, Okay,
Matt Damon from Whunting is my husband's beautiful?
Speaker 1 (07:02):
So good at math, so good at math, but not
like a graduate degree.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yes, that's what I love. He's showing up the guy
in the bar with the master's.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
He's working class and he's brilliant, and that's what I think.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
That's what I'm looking for. I think that when Ethel
Kaine said, he looks like he works with his hands
and smells like Marlboro reds.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I was like, she got it.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
No, she always does tell me, like how it is
processing your love life through your music and your art.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
It's definitely it can be a crutch and it can
be dangerous because it's very easy to turn your life
and especially your love life into content and into art.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
I do know something about that, yes, yes, and so
it is.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
It is something that I've been trying to get better about.
It's like being more present in dating and life more generally.
But it is a problem, I think, especially with people
who are like really sensitive and want to romanticize their lives.
It's like we're kind of experiencing life as a story
as it's happening, like we're experiencing in retrospect in the present.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
And I also think so many men like do not
often feel perceived. So when you're on a date with
them and you're like noticing the way they're like moving
their body or they're like talking or whatever, and you're
calling them out on it, it's like the first time they're
aware of how someone sees them has been no exactly,
and there they don't often they're not often performing in
(08:14):
the way we are, you know what I mean? Like,
I feel like women dating men, like we're so often
like careful to present in the right way, and they
just are themselves, like they don't think about it as.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Much, and that's why we're so namored of them, because
they're not. There's so much that's not performance.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
You're so right, because I'm like, if I could just
be as apathetic as you to perception, where would I be? Yes,
you know, I feel like I would be could be anywhere.
Does being like a public facing person hurt or help
your love life?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
It? I feel like it mostly helps. I'm not gonna lie.
I feel like I'm mostly all I'm not gonna lie
to you.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Hey, I love that answer.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I think I mean it hurts in the sense that
like there are definitely well no, because like there's people
who don't want to be in the public eye. But
it's like that doesn't make them not want to be
with me. Oh maybe, and I just don't know about it.
You date your fans, like, do you know what I mean? Like,
if someone's a fan, are you like, ooh, it would well,
like another public figure who's a fan or like like
a private person who's a fan, because many of my
(09:12):
situationships have started with another public figure sliding in the
dance being like I love your music, and.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
You know what I wanted to know about your dms.
I would love to I would love to know what's happening.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
A while since I've had dms happening, like I don't.
I haven't done a DM that has not been my
dating bag recently, but there was definitely, like post my
big breakup, there was a couple of DM moments that
led to little situations and it was always flattering. I
mean the first time it happened, it was like a
guy who I considered kind of a celebrity crush, like
I watched his TV show during quarantine.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
How did you feel when because this has happened to me,
and I melted into a puddle and just absolutely loveful.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Well it was like we like kind of had mutual friends.
So it was like I wasn't I was surprised that
he followed me on Instagram. I was like very giddy,
and then I think he followed me and I did
this slide like he opened the door and I walked
through it, and it was a very short lived thing.
But it was like very to go on a date
with a man who had been like all through lockdown,
like staring at on TV. I was like, oh my god, there.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Is you had to tell me afterwards to it?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Okay, won't we won't.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
We won't air it now.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
If he listens to this keel, No, how was the date? Well,
we went to breakfast, which like girl what but like
it was he paid and she was He was really sweet,
Like he's very progressive. He was a little weird. But
like I think every if I've learned anything from dating
all the actors that I've dated, is like they're all
really weird.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Actors are freaks.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
They're all theater kids.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
No. Absolutely, every time I see a man on screen
and I'm like almost about to have a crush on him,
I'm like, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
You must remember that that's a theater kid. And in
between takes, by the way, he's doing a fake French
accent and pretending to play with the sword, like I
promise you because I've seen it.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
No, right, we need to stay clocked into reality.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
And it's so funny because like I like this makes
it seem like I'm just like dating celebrities all the time,
I'm not, but like I have a friend who I
have written some songs with, and she has dated a
lot more celebrities than me, And every time I like
casually mentioned like, oh yeah, this guy from this movie
is so cute, like either she dated him or her
friend dated him, and she's like and here's all the
ways he's a weirdo. And I'm like, Okay, I.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Feel like if you're actually really really beyond famous, like
you're a freak.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Or you don't even have to be that famous on right,
It's just I really do believe in the same way
that like me and my friends like we're all like, oh,
we're all weird because we're creative. It's like that extends
to actors as well, Like they're very creative people and
they're like very in touch with tapping into other personas.
And I think and that makes you, like, it kind
of makes you a little disembodied. I have to assume
like I've not dipped my toe into acting.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I don't think of myself as an actor.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
And to go back to what we were saying, like,
I think those men are very aware of being perceived.
Men who are who are acting on a camera screen.
They are very aware of being perceived, and they're definitely
very conscious of how they're they're moving their bodies.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
I want to know about the breakup, of course, of course,
tell me about the breakup before people started sliding into
your DNS. I mean, I just I asked before, is
it like the biggest breakup of your life? Yeah? Just
say absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
I mean I didn't start dating until I was twenty three, Like,
I mean, I was going on dates, but I didn't
get in my first relationship. So I was twenty three,
and so this was my second relationship, and I thought
that he was the love of my life, Like.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Your first relationship was at twenty three, your second relationship,
which was the biggest one of your life.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
I was twenty four when that started. Okay, yeah, they
were very The first one was almost a year and
then only a couple weeks went by and between the
first and second. That's why I was just crazy, after
being a person who had never had a boyfriend ever
to then do that. I was like, I love how
I was like I was making up for lost time.
I was like time to get all of the boyfriends
in a row. Yeah, I guess, but yeah, I thought
(12:45):
he was the love of my life, like the beginning
of it. I mean, the same way it's every it's
like the beginning. I was like, oh my god, it's perfect.
He's perfect, I'm perfect. Everything's perfect. I literally remember like
a week and two when we were dating. I was
touring and I was like walking through the airport and
I was like, the airport is beautiful.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Like of course, You're like, no, it actually is a
movie my life.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
But it was really I felt like my life was
a movie. And yeah, when we broke up, like it
was not my choice, it was all him. I was
completely devastated, like completely destroyed. I had just bought him
Christmas presents out of nowhere, like kind of there was
a there. He had been being weird for a couple
of weeks, but we've been dating for like nine months,
so I was like, oh, we're having like a little
rough patch, Like it's just we're having a little rough patch,
(13:25):
like I think would been different if we've been dating
for less time. But I was like, we've had this
really long run of it being amazing, and it was
really intense. Yes, it was extremely intense because we were
also long distance. A lot of the time, and so
it was like when we were together in the same place,
it was like we were just so locked on each other.
And so he was like, Oh, we're just having like
a little rough patch. Like that's no worries, it's only
been like two weeks of it being kind of weird.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
And then how did he do it? How did he
break up with you? Well?
Speaker 2 (13:48):
I remember, sorry, that's like, let's talk about it. He
came over to my house and I remember that he
didn't have his overnight bag and I was like, something
is a miss because he doesn't have his little backpack.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
On piss I'm pissed. What do you mean on your
tooth brush?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I was like, where's your little backpacking? And so, but
I didn't say anything, and then we went into my
apartment and like, I don't even know if there was
any small talk. To his credit, he did get right
to the point. He just said I have some things
to say, and it just then nothing. And then I
was like, you're breaking up with me? And then he
didn't respond, damn.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
It, and you're shocked and you're just like what I actually.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I was crying so much, and he was crying too,
but I was crying so much. I mean, I'm just
unfortunately I didn't like beg like I was. I wasn't
like don't do this, like don't change your mind like
I was, like, this is happening. I know it's happening.
I'm just devastated. And also I remember that when I
walked him back to his car and I walked back
to my apartment, I didn't look back, and I remember
thinking that that was like really powerful of me. Was
like I didn't look back. But it's like girl who cares?
Speaker 1 (14:40):
You got du no, but thank god he lets you go,
like he let you lose a caged bird.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
It was just, I mean, it was most it was
part of it was well, okay, the reason he broke
up with me is because he didn't love me anymore.
That's the reason why people don't. That's the reason why
people bring up with people.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
That's what you're saying, Like, I don't know if that's true.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
They had loved me. I think he stopped, but also.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
There are different types of love, Like if you just
stopped loving you in general, that feels incorrect.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I think he lost feelings. I think that's what happened.
I think his job was definitely a factor. But also
the distance we both traveled a lot for more totally,
and so that was But I think that if he
had thought that I was his forever, he would have
made we would have made it work because I thought
he was my forever. I Yeah, it was an No,
was a miracle I couldn't have I was actually thinking
about that recently, Like my second album, I don't know
what I like if we had been together, I'm like,
what the hell would I write? Totally those writing love
(15:25):
songs about him, and I was writing songs about the
challenges of being in our relationship as well, but like
those songs were just okay. Like I wrote the rearranger
about him, and that was like a beautiful, fun song.
But I wrote that, like I listened to that song
now and it's like really cute. It's like, oh, we
don't talk about the future, like we're just having fun.
And I'm like, that's a fun song to write about
a boy even nating for a month. That's a crazy
song that I wrote about a boy man ing for
eight months almost a year. Yeah, I wrote it like
(15:46):
towards the end of our relationship, and I'm like, girl,
why that's great? That was That was the red Flag.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
I love that You're like, I didn't expect the breakup
at all and writing.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
That, but like, I cause I was so you know,
you're so in denial when you're like that in love.
I thought he was perfect.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Why were you so in love with him? Girl?
Speaker 2 (16:02):
I thought, well, Okay, at the time, I thought he
was the most handsome man I'd ever seen in my life,
which I no longer believe, right, But I thought that,
and he was very good at mirroring me because I
look back now at a lot of the stuff, like
a lot of the moments that I felt like the
most connected to him, and it was a lot of
him kind of just like mirroring me. Yeah, And I
felt like I'd found someone who was really similar to me.
And I look back now and I look at kind
(16:23):
of how he's conducted himself after the breakup, and I'm like, no,
he's just kind of shape shifts, I think to who
he's with, which is not like it necessarily about many
people do that. Man, She was like, which is not
a bad things. Yeah, but I think that, like we
were much less compatible than I thought because I was like, oh,
he's just like me, and it's like, no, he was
not at all.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Did he reach out to you after the album came?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
I told my best friend. I was like, because she
was like, he's going to text you. Yeah, Like, I'll
give you one thousand dollars if he ever texted me
again in our lives way, he's never going to contact me.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
You're kidding.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I'm certain of it.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Because I'm someone who always goes back.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Well I know that I am. So the only guys
who have come back to me have been the ones
that I dumped very thinly. They'll like, hey, let's be
friends and get cough and I'm like, babe, you're not.
And I and I sometimes I'll play ball, but I
know that what's going on here. Yeah, but I mean
he we we talked after the breakup because I reached
out because I was sad, but it was I was
very mature about it. I was like, it was like
six months afterward. I was like, let's just get coffee
(17:15):
because we ran into each other at something and it
was totally fine and pleasant, and we texted a little
bit after that. But he has since stopped answering my
text which is fine. It's been like a year since
the last time I texted and I'm like it's whatever,
but yeah, he's I am certain he's never going to
contact me ever again.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
How long did it take you to get over it?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I would say it took like the first kind of heat,
the first heat of recovery. Honestly, like they took the
length of the relationship. I feel like it took like
nine months, damn, because he he was dating this other girl,
like right after we broke up, and they broke up
and got back together. And I remember when I found
out that they had gotten back together the first time.
That was when I I had like a big crash
(17:53):
out and I was like nine months after we broke up,
and it was like after that crash out, I was like,
I think I'm better. And so then after that period
of being stressed about like him getting back together with
this girl, I.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Would like, hell better. Yeah I was your reach out
to him or her to him. Yeah, no, no, I'm
not out of you.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I have a lot of pride. I was just like crazy,
like I'm privately, I'm being insane, and I mean I
was posting listen I say privately, I was posting a
lot of songs. I was writing a lot of songs
and put them on the Internet, and that was my
public grieving process, which I will never do again. Wait
why because even though I was like relatively coy, like,
(18:32):
surely he was seeing all of it. Like I don't
like I could tell myself that he wasn't because he
never like watched my stories or anything. But I'm like,
I feel like he probably had some idea of what
was going on, and like, I think it's just better
to process a little bit more privately. Like I think
it's being a person with a platform. It's like, of
course I'm going to talk about general themes, you know,
but I think it's better to come away from the
(18:53):
constant hamstery of posting process and then then share when
you've come to a conclusion of something kind we have
something to share. Like I wrote Massachusetts about a year
after we broke up, and then I put the song
out like six months after that. When I put the
song out, I made this substack post. It was like
breakup advice basically, and I was like, that was a
good thing to share because it was like, it's been
a year and a half since this breakup, I have
thoughts and feelings. I have fully figured out what this means.
(19:16):
For my story in my life, and that's really valuable.
And I think I'll continue to share about my life
when I can process it and take time away. But
it's the in real time, like I got dumped a
week ago and I'm writing a song about it and
I'm putting it on the internet. It's like it's not
as embarrassing as me like doing like a story time
about it. But it's like it is like that maybe
was something. I don't regret it because like I grew
my following that way, was literally documenting the songs I
(19:38):
was writing as going through that breakup. That's how I
grew my following. M But I don't think. I don't
think I need to do that again.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
You were twenty four, How old was He's a year older.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
He's okay, And at that point I was. I had
turned twenty five. He had turned twenty six at that point.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
And did you think y'all were gonna get married?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I fantasized about it all the time in.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Your one of your songs, and I can't remember which
one you talk about, like you talked about having my
kids or you talked about raising.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Okay, that was my first boyfriend and to father my children.
That was a threat.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Why would it be a threat?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
He was horrible. He was really horrib he was careful.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
First relationship was bad. Yes, yeah, do you want to
say why or no? I mean it was I would.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Say it was abusive. It was. It was not. I
was not saying and I didn't know that. It took
a long time for me to put that together. I mean,
that's what the that's what the second album is really about.
It's about these two relationships, which is why I try
to be really clear. I'm like, for the people who
know me and my exes, I'm like, I want to
be clear. Like, the songs about my second boyfriend and
my first boyfriend are very different. My second boyfriend was
not abusive. He was mostly a good guy. But yeah,
(20:35):
my first boyfriend definitely was. He but he was a
little bit older, and he was talking about marriage and
kids and stuff, and I was not like imminently but
like something that he wanted with me, and I was
every time he talked about it, I.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Was like, really, and who broke up with you? I
ended it okay good.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Which was crazy because because it was my first relationship,
the first relationship, you were younger. Yeah, I was twenty
three when it started, and he was twenty eight, which
is not like that much older, but like, because I
had no life experience, it felt like a bigger age guy. Yeah,
but I was so surprised that I ended it because
like I had always thought, like, if I ever get
a boyfriend, like, I don't know how I could possibly
break up with someone, because like I've wanted this for
so long, And.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah, I was gonna say, like, how did it feel
as someone like, you know, growing up up to like
twenty two, not having a boyfriend, how do you think?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Well, it's so I'm on TikTok all the time looking
at like late bloomer TikTok because I'm like, I know
what you girls. I know, ladies, I know, which is funny.
Also because I remember when I was dating that guy.
I made a TikTok talking about being a late bloomer
but us being together, and I got so many hate comments,
Like the video was kind of viral, and I got
all these hate comments from people who were much older
than me, who'd never had relationships. They're like, you think
(21:35):
twenty three is a late bloomer. It's like I thought
so because everyone made me feel so weird that I
didn't have a boyfriend in high school or college.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Well, it kind of colors the way you're processing something. Yeah,
Like how you said like, oh, I thought I was
a late bloomer and then this TikTok of yours got
to like late late bloomer TikTok you know, like, and
so that colors the way you are perceiving your experience. Yeah,
And I just think like, while you're processing something, sort
of leaving that at bay and making sure you are
(22:04):
where you are before you give it. Yes, I have
given before I have known.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
I feel like, how do you feel about it? Like
do you feel like you look back at old tiktoks
and things and are like, oh, I kind of wish
I had waited to talk about that.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
We talk about this, me and my producer sometimes, Like
there was an era of last year where I was
posting and I was just like I look back at
those videos and I'm like, who is she? Literally don't know.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
It takes so little time six months a year, I'm
like unrecognizable.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
I'm like, no idea, who she is? Why is she
talking like that? What voice is that?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Like?
Speaker 1 (22:34):
What is that cadence? Like is she okay, Like, so
definitely I learned in a really intense way not to
process in public and not to process with public opinion.
And I'm still figuring out when and how to put
my feelings out, even.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Because I don't think it's bad to do. Like I
think there's some people who are like it, she'll never
be shared, like you should just process in private, And
I'm like, well, I disagree, because I think as long
as we have the social Internet as a tool for
connection with other people, it's great to use it for
this purpose.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
It's definitely like a double edged sword.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah, do you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
It's just like you have to wield it carefully, like
the power of the Internet. Wait, so take me back
a little again. Breakup with Massachusetts Guy album comes out
a little bit after and then you're happily single, and
are you looking for love or you're looking to stay single?
How do you identify with like boyover in general? Well,
(23:31):
now I am not congratulations.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Well so I at the beginning of twenty twenty four,
when I was like recording the album, I was I
thought I was going to be boysover. I fully planned it,
like I went on a horrible first date.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
And how what happened?
Speaker 2 (23:46):
He was he picked me up at a bar, which
had never happened before in real life, Yes, in real
lirl in the wild, yes, which I've never had that
happen before or since.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Do you remember the line?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Well, he sent his friend up to me, like his
friend was a weird guy, and his friend like said
something kind of gross to me, and I was like what.
And then the guy came up and was like, oh,
sorry about my friend. And then we started talking and
he's like, I'm gonna be honest. I like sent my
friend over to start the conversation because I was nervous
to talk.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
What a terrible allue.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
He's like, my friend is gross. I'm less gross. Nice
to meet you, Yeah, kind of. I was like, I
was just so. He was really tall, and so I
was like, okay, you're tall and you came up to
me in a bar in real life, I'm charmed. And
so we went on a date and it was a
terrible date. As it turns out. I at the onheen
I met at the bar, he was drunk and when
I met him sober, not a fan and I and
I went home and I like, I was like, I'm
(24:32):
done with dating for the rest of the year. It
was so bad, I was not going to date the
rest of the year. And then a couple of weeks later,
a damn slide did occur and I did get into
a relationship for a.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Minute how much time?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Three months?
Speaker 1 (24:41):
I knew it because it's always three months. Yeah, okay,
I just want I just wanted to confirm my suspicions.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
And I and I again, I ended both of those. Like,
I didn't realize I was going to be the breaker up.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
I was an adult. Are you usually the person who
breaks up?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
I have been mostly other than the one time I
got like, spectacularly dumped I. Since I've been in relationships,
I've pretty much been the copper.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Spectacularly dumped is so funny.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
And then I broke up with him because he was
too clingy. Okay, proud of you, which does happen sometimes,
of course. And then I was like, I would assume
guys are obsessed with you. I would say most of
my most of my dynamics with men, it definitely starts
if it's gonna go anywhere, it starts with them being obsessed.
If they're not obsessed, it's not gonna go anywhere. Yes,
but then it just depends like how long is it
gonna take for that obsession to kind of taper.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Off for them to really know. I've had guys meet
me and they like saw me and decided something about
me online first, and then they meet me in person
and they're like, wait, you are actually crazy or there
or it's like but like I or you're not what
I whatever the thing is I made up in my head,
You're not that. And it's like maybe they figure that
on a date one, Maybe they figured it out on a
date twelve. Yeah, but it's like eventually they're like, wait,
I get an idea and you're not pulling my script.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Wait, yeah, I'm bringing.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Up with you because this is all I was going
to be like, Okay, so bad date. Thought you were
gonna go boysover for a.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Year a DM, last two weeks.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Well the DM, how you can do it?
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I mean it's so powerful, but yeah, we So we
did it for a couple of months. I broke up
with him and then I was like not going. I
was like I'm gonna be not gonna into a relationship,
like I want to have a little fun and like
get around. And then I asked a friend of mine
to set me up, and she did set me up
with her friend, and that was the situationship that a
few months and situationships.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Love him or leave them?
Speaker 2 (26:16):
You know, I'm gonna say love them. Oh, and I'm
gonna be a hot take about it, because, Okay, I
think if you're looking for a committed relationship, do not
get into a situation. Be very honest about your intentions.
But if you are looking to be chill vibes like,
it's granted. I did crash out about that.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Man.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, I ended our situationship, but I was crashing out
so bad.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
What made you crash out?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
He never texted me ever, sick.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
I'm pissed.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
He never texted me every and he would only see
me once a week.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
I'm insane. No, I'm like, if I'm in a situationship
with you, if we are doing this together, I need
you to be almost my roommate. Once a week would
make me sick in the hand.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Well, because he was recovering, for he had been in
a really long relationship before that.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
I love you like he was recovering from a long relationship.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
So I don't listen. I don't want to put this
man on. He's a very private person. I would not
put this man, but yeah, he had a very long
I think he had like a series of long relationships
kind of close together. And he was like, I need
to be single. I am never since he was also
a little older, He's like, I need to single, I'm
never single. And I kind of got the vibe that
I was like that. He didn't say this outright, but
I kind of got the vibe that, like his next
relationship was going to be like the one, you know,
So I was like, I don't want to rush into that,
(27:17):
like I'm ready to have fun and beat chill vibes.
So the first like month and a half, I was like, yeah,
this is rad, Like he's not all up in my space.
Like when we see each other, it's great, but it's
very chill. And then something started to turn around. It
would have been like date five or six, and I
was like, well, we're every time we hang out, we
hang out like all day totally and like we talked
like we're also talking.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
That I think is the marker of a situationship is
like playing house.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
One of our last dates, I was holding laundry with him,
No and you're in We're watching the Dodger game, holding
Lundrey his dog on the couch.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
No, no, no, no, no, Dodgers dog laundry.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
I'm sick. I was like, no label, yeah, no label
fully fully Oh yeah, that was bad?
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Could make sense?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
No, yeah, I know a question it for the right age,
It was no, it was crazy, and but yeah. I
eventually ended it because we there was a point where
I was like, I'm not going to text him first
and just see what happens to hear from him for
a week. And I went and I literally hit him up.
I was like, girl, if you can't text me for
a week, we should not be doing this. And he
was like, you're right, damn.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
And that was that. Can I ask you, how do
(28:38):
you crash out? I mean you said you go crazy
in private?
Speaker 2 (28:41):
I go so crazy. I mean I I love to
go in my I have a walk in closet. I
love to go in my closet, sit on floor, lights off,
headphones on, music so loud, crying so hard that my
neck is.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Wet, and who are you listening to? Well.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
During that period of time, the new Katie Gavin album
had just dropped, and so that was the soundtrack for
that Okay, when I went through my big breakup that
was one week before for Sos by Sissa, and so
that was my that was my breakup album for that.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Oh so good. Yeah, okay, situationship is over and again
You're happily single.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
That was after I recovered from that crash out. That
was when I was like, oh, I think I'm happy
to be alone right now. And so that was like
November December of last year, so kind of all of
twenty twenty five, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm happily single,
which was like amazing. It was the kind of the
first time in a really long time, if ever, that
I was like really single by choice, really happy. I
(29:30):
wasn't fully boys sober because I was still going on dates,
but it was very much I was like, very definitively
like I don't want these to lead to relationship.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
And let me also say, I think you can be
boys sober and go on dates as long as you're
not getting obsessed. That is like the true takeaway of
boys Sober.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Yeah, it's f Dee centering exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
So it's like if you're having fun, if you're going
on dates, if you're sleeping with people. That's fine, that's
amazing that do that. My issue is like I become obsessed.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Of course so quick, and that was what resonated with
me about your content was like I know, yeah, I
really know, oh that bag, and like I know how
it feels to like have your day consumed by waiting
for a text message and your day ruined.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Why not receiving I saw a crush of mine. I
was scrolling Instagram.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
By the way, how many crushes are we having right
now for you?
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Actually none. I had a crush that was so limerents
object heavy, like every waking moment, every Instagram story, every everything,
every everything for him. And then finally I asked him.
I was like, what do you want from me? And
he was like nothing. And since that rejection, I've actually
(30:34):
been so thankful for it, Like because since that rejection,
I've been like let off the hook. But I am like,
I know I have this like sick dog inside of me.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
So when he said that, you were immediately like not
interested anymore?
Speaker 1 (30:47):
No, But I I like stopped smoking weed, I stopped drinking,
I gave up like nicotine, Like I don't have any
crushes right now, Like I do still need to sleep
with someone every now and again. So that's that is
something I needed.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
You're like very clear headed.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
I'm trying to be. That's why I woke up so
angry this morning. It's too clear. I'm like getting really
comfortable with anger these days because I'm like, like yesterday,
I woke up so mad probably the world.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Because there's a lot going on that's like what we
have in this day and age as well. It's like
we have our personal problems and then we get on
our phone and we see like what's happening.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, there's the background chaos of like everything is horrible,
like democracy is burning everywhere, people are suffering, and then
it's like, oh and my situationship didn't text me. That's
my final.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Strong And I don't believe in romantic love right now.
I'm sick. Right, So anyways, do I have any crushes?
Honestly no, But enjoy.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
This because one's gonna come for you, and you're gonna
be like I was so young.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Well, because like you said, it's like you were finally
happily single. Yeah, you were going on dates, but you
were not desperate.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Not at all. And also I mean I was getting more.
I've been getting more selective.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Good for you. How quickly do you get the ick?
And what gives you the egg? Pretty quick, dude, pretty quick.
Everything's been giving me the itck recently.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Exclamation points, Oh yeah, okay, no, I want to I
want to hear more X. I love that.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Well, I'm just like this guy was texting me a
lot of exclamation points, and I'm like, calm.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Down, and that's well, that's Frankly. I made a joke
about this psychologist, like, you know you love someone if
you love them even when they get a bad haircut.
And I think this is before the term ick would
have even really entered the left totally. And that's kind
of the thing. Now. It's like if a man that
I was really quite infatuated with sey exclamation points, I'd
be honest. But a man, I'm like on the fence
about don't do that.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
No, And I actually, this is what I realized about
X the other day. So I was like, no, they
don't exist. You just don't like that person. Yeah, like
there is no giving me. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
I mean every married couple I know, it's like they're like, oh, yeah,
we've pooped on each other. We vomited on each other,
like we and we still love it. And I'm like, yeah,
because that Unfortunately, when you're like Madley in love, that
is the situation.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, that's how that's how we're rocket.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
I did get the ick. I was one of my
like dates that I went on earlier this year. I
thought that it was going fine, and then he walked
me to my car and he leaned in to kiss me,
and I grabbed his arm and went, no, your.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Body takes over. My body keeps the score.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
I had never in my before that I never knew
what people meant when they were like, oh, yeah, you know,
like when a guyland's in for a kiss and you're
not into it, and I was like no. I was like,
no man's ever tried to kiss me without me sending
such obvious signals that I wanted to happen and that
and then it did happen to me. I was like,
it happened to me. Ama, A man did lean over
to kiss me on a street corner and I.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Went, no, what did he say?
Speaker 2 (33:22):
I lied? I said I don't do that on the
first date.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Lie, big lie, and then perfect lie and kind of lie.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Sometimes lies are perfect and beautiful.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
I think so too. I just think it saves everybody.
It's like, no worries.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
I'm like, I like to think of myself as a
pretty honest person, but when it comes to being on
dates and trying to get out of them or things
on the dates, I'll say, oh, yes anything.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
My neighbor tried to say he wanted to sleep with
me yesterday and I was like, I don't shit where
I eat, I do, I have and I will again
I have. But I was like, that's a perfect thing
to say to him, because.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
It makes sense.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
I mean, it's also true. It's like you're my like
I'm not gonna sleep with you and then have to
see you on the.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Stoop like yeah, you know, no, it's and it's that's
about thing to say. But I have, like, ye have
a lot of tried and true excuses, but I get
think very easily.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
But tell me, yes about this new relationship and why
it works and why you didn't run and why are
in it and what happened and just tell me tell
me to well.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
I mean, he's very private and I definitely want to
keep it pretty private. But we met through friends we'd
met before, like years ago, like uh at something and
we were both dating other people at the time, so
I didn't think anything about it. And then yeah, just
like years past, I was always vaguely aware of him.
I didn't even follow on Instagram, like truly, like David,
no thought. And then what is it that.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
They say about like your anxiety and your heart and
your body and everything, Like the person you will love
is actually someone when you meet them, your body is calm. Yeah,
like we look for butterflies, we look for like excitement.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
But I mean I should say I'm definitely I have
butterflies for sure. I have butterflies for sure. But Okay,
we met in personnel. Okay, it was like a thing
that we were both at right and yeah, we just
started talking. And even when we were first speaking to
each other at this event, no part of me was like, oh, yeah,
like this is like I didn't. It was only after
we'd been talking for hours that I was like, I
think I texted my best friend. I was like, I
(35:10):
think remember that guy was like I think we're gonna kiss.
Oh my god, and he was like, go for a queen. Yah. Yeah,
it's very like extremely extremely new.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
I'm like, is it moving slow? Is it moving fast?
Are you saying I love you? What's going on?
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I love you? It's moving fast in the sense that
like we've like put a label on it, I guess already,
like my girlfriend, no, no. We were like, what.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
What do you mean? Because people are so scared of
labels now like people are so they are I think
men and women too. Like I feel like, because I'm
scared of labels, I have commitment issues. I run so
I do not think this is just a man thing.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
No, not at all. And I was feeling I was
talking to one of my best friends earlier in the year,
and like he and I talked about relationships a lot,
and we both were saying how much we both have
commitment issues and so I hate to be like when
you know you know, But it was just like it
didn't feel crazy like every time like with other people
that I've been and it fast felt rush like I
felt like we're going too fast, We're going too fast,
(36:03):
and this like it didn't feel like that. But yeah,
I mean he tryingly, he was like, what are we
the man? The man brought up the one oar we conversation.
I was like, perfectly. I at the time, I was
going into like when we were going to see each other.
I was like, oh, yeah, like we could because I'd
been away and we'd been like facetiming cute, and I
was like, oh, surely, like I we can just keep
doing this as is like it's I don't care.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
But I feel like the fact that y'all are face
timing is like that's such a green flag. I haven't
facetimed demand.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
No. Actually, I was worried that he wasn't going to
want to do it, but like we hung out like
two times before I left for a lot of travel stuff.
We were texting and I was like, yeah, like the
next time we talk on the phone or in person
or whatever, and they said, O, yeah, we should talk
on the phone. And then we did and I was
like it was so great, and like we ended up
facetiving like a lot, and that was I kind of
figured that like we were headed towards it becoming more serious,
but we hadn't. I was like, maybe he's still like
(36:52):
sleeping like falling.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
I don't know. Long phone call face time feels like
so serious.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
That's boys and girlfriend, I think, as I was thinking,
but I was like I don't want get ahead of and
I really was like, yeah, he's face sending me. But
I'm like, but he could be sleeping with any I'm
not in La, not in a week, I don't know. Yeah,
and you just really never know what these with these people.
But yeah, when I when we hung out, when I
got back, yeah, we were just talking and we were
we both said we weren't seeing other people. And then
I was like, just out of curiosity, what's the difference
(37:18):
between exclusive and boyfriend girlfriend? He was like, no difference,
and I was like, Okay, what a breath of fresh
And that's the thing that I think, and I hate.
I hate to be that girl that's like, you know,
than when you're not well.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
I was gonna was my next question is what's your
dating advice for someone for me?
Speaker 2 (37:34):
I mean, I think, like, I think you're allowed to
be looking for it. I absolutely think you're allowed to
be looking for it. Like I've been set up twice.
The mass Chooses Man was a set up, and then
my situationship Blash was set up. Both of those were awesome,
even though they ended, you know, not great.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
But I also feel like something I appreciate about, appreciate
about what you've been saying all day is I feel
like you're a little bit like ride the wave, like
maybe like your pro situationship I am, and me a
little bit too, because I'm like get close to the sun.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
You know, not first of all, if you get into
a relationship, it's like the implication is like we both
see this going somewhere. I don't know where, like not
necessarily like marriage, but it's like we see this going
at least for the next few months. I think of
it as like kind of like a lease, like getting
into relationship, Like I'm least in this car. I'm like,
we'll see if I re up right and I feel
good about it. I want to drive it for a
while totally see if I.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Ran here for a minute.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yeah, let's just say the situationship is like I don't
necessarily see this going anywhere totally, and it's like there
is no future. There's some kind of chemistry happening, and
I don't want to not hang out with you just
because I don't think it's forever, but like I do
want it. I want to see it through to something.
And I think if you're not looking for a relationship,
that's no reason to not have romance and no greed. Yeah,
but I think it's just really important to be clear
(38:40):
about what you want. And in my case with situationships,
is like, as soon as I realize I want a relationship,
I have to basically ask for it, and if they
don't want it, then it's like, okay, we're done. Like
I can't be I don't I'm not a fake chill girl.
Like as soon as I'm not, in fact a chill girl,
I'm like, hey, by the way, I'm not chill anymore.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
No.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Sorry, I was chill before, I'm not chill now. No,
and then we have to be done.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Yeah, And I love that. I feel like you have
to get that out.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
And like I've I've crashed out over a one week
situationship in my day.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
And so it's like I don't want to say like
I'm amazing at keeping control and keeping my cool. I'm
certainly not all the time. But the older I get,
the more selective I'm getting. And yeah, I just I
think the biggest thing is to be be really honest
with yourself and the people that you're dating about your
intentions and just stop trying to pretend that you want
stuff you don't want, and that goes both ways, Like,
don't tell people you want a relationship if you know
(39:23):
you don't, because you're just going to break up with
them in two months and they're going to freak out.
That's evil.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
What is like something you've had to unlearn about love?
Speaker 2 (39:33):
I think, I mean one of the biggest things is
just that, like, it doesn't solve anything other than the
problem of the lack of romantic love. The only thing
getting into a relationship does is it solves the problem
of you being single, which doesn't have to be a
problem if you don't want to be I know, historically
I have thought, like before I ever got into a
serious relationship, or when periods where I was feeling really lonely,
I was like, oh, if I just got a boyfriend,
(39:55):
then all of this other stuff I'd.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Be able to deal with. Everything else will disappear.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
And I will say that I'm very conscious in this
relationship of like, you don't have to be consumed, and
so like I've been very conscious of like still like
really making time to be by myself and really being
present on all the travel that I've been doing for work,
like I was playing with Hosier and like I was
going to this movie premiere, and like in the moments
when I'm doing that stuff, I'm like, he is not
on my mind. I Am one hundred percent locked in
(40:20):
on this thing that I'm doing because these are the memories.
I hope we stay together. Like I don't know what's
gonna come, but like when I'm an old lady, like
I'm going to be remembering like this stuff, like frankly,
like not to make like my life is about work,
but like this is like all my happiest memories of
my ODLD life or my work right, And it's like
I'm trying to remember, like to stay focused and like
really take mental screenshots of all of the tactile experiences
(40:41):
of being on those stages and being in those rooms,
because like that is what really fills me.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Ah well, Jensen, thank you so much for coming so
much fun we did it. Thank you so much to
Jensen for taking time out of your busy schedule to
talk with us. I can't wait to hear the album
that this new era of love inspires, and thank all
(41:06):
of you for listening. And as always, I'll talk to
y'all next week. Boy Sover is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
(41:26):
I'm your host, Hope Ordered. Our executive producers are Christina
Everett and Julie Pinero. Our supervising producer is Emily Meronoff
engineering by Bahid Fraser and mixing and mastering by Aboo Zafar.
If you liked this episode, please tell a friend and
don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to boy Sober
(41:47):
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, and wherever you get
your favorite shows.
Hello, beautiful listeners. We're busy working on our next episodes,
and we have a question for you. What's a red
flag you love to ignore? Mine is when a guy
breadcrumbs me terrible. Send us your answers by leaving us
a voicemail at five one eight eight three seven six
(00:20):
two three seven, or email us a voice note at
boy Sober Podcast at gmail dot com. Okay, now on
with the episode.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
I'm a big Taro girl.
Speaker 1 (00:35):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
I historically have sometimes used it when I'm like down bad,
but recently have been using it like for fun, like
just as like a way to connect with people and
be social.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
I'm like, yeah, so, what is there anything? I mean,
I'm assuming we want to know. I'm assuming you want
to know about love?
Speaker 1 (00:49):
Yeah? Sure, tell me. That's not just any Tara reader.
That's singer, songwriter and my sweet friend Jensen McCrae. Last
week she came into the studio to chat about dating
and relationships and apparently tell me what's in the cards
for my love life. I love how you're shuffling, shuffling,
shuffling and then pulling.
Speaker 2 (01:09):
Well you're supposed to kind of in theory, be shuffling
and wait for and there she is. Okay, we got
one out, so this is the love. We've got the
five of pentacles.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Okay, I'll say what I see. Okay, we've got one, two, three,
four stars. We've got a mother holding a child and
it's looking like they are either resting or mourning. Honestly,
can I say what I think right now? Yeah, I
don't think I'm ready for love right now. So if
that's what this is, that's a good thing.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I swear to God. This is what this says. It
may seem right now, you'll never find the love you
are searching for.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Walk off because I said today and last night I
said I do not believe in love at this point
in my life. And I know that's stupid to say
at twenty nine, but I'm like, I don't think I'm gonna.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Do it says unfortunately, this attitude can be a self
fulfilling prophecy.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Okay, chill, and it.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Says, this may be a difficult time, but it's more
important than ever to draw close together instead of pulling apart.
So I guess lean on your people, I would say.
And also like this is I think the cards are
saying this is not a permanent situation. That's the season
you're in right now.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah, And I understand that because I'm like, it's not
that I don't believe in love it anymore, but I'm
just like, it's not in the cards for me right now.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
That is fascinating. Wow. Okay.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
In today's episode, Jensen and I invoke the spirits of
romance and get into it about our love lives. I'm
hopewordered and welcome to voiceover a space where we're learning
and un learning all the myths we're taught about love
(02:39):
and relationships. If you're familiar with Jensen McCrae's work, you
know it's filled with details of past loves, navy bed sheets,
pilgrim ash trays, trips out East. She's the kind of
(03:01):
writer that's not afraid to be specific and vulnerable, which
hits me right to my core. In fact, a lot
of people connect with her work, probably because it's all
about love and heartbreak, the things that we're all navigating.
Just this past April, Jensen put out her second album
I Don't Know How But They Found Me, and her
song Massachusetts was featured in Lena Dunham's new show Too Much.
(03:24):
On top of that, Spike Lee recently noticed her talent,
commissioning a song for his new film Highest to Lowest
and casting her in her acting debut alongside Denzel Washington.
Big things are happening for Jensen. Jensen and I have
been internet friends for a while now, connecting over dating
(03:44):
stories and what it's like to be public about your
love life online. I was so excited to finally get
to meet her in person to get deeper into our
experiences around dating and relationships. Jensen, welcome to boys over.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Oh thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
I feel so lucky that you're here.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Oh my, I'm so happy.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
No, seriously, thank you. I do want to know like
your career highlight up to this point.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I mean honestly, Well, as we're recording this. Last night,
I went to my first movie premiere for my first
movie role, and so filming Highest to Lowist with Denzel
Washington was insane. Talk about meeting heroes that was really wild.
I can't wait to see the movie. I hope yeah,
everyone goes. This is not a promo tour, but everyone
I'm like clapping in the theater. I just stopped. My mom.
(04:32):
She's like, my allowed to scream and you come on screen.
I was like, no, but she has to. We just
held hands. We held hands, were squeze.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Your mom was there with you last night. And how's
your relationship with your mom?
Speaker 2 (04:41):
We are so close? Okay, my best friend.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Oh that's inspiring. Yeah, I want to ask your parents
still together?
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Yes, very madly in love?
Speaker 1 (04:48):
In love?
Speaker 2 (04:48):
Yeah? Did they have a secret my mom would a
separate bathrooms and communication? Well yeah, I mean they I
think probably like she's never bored, like he makes her
laugh all the time, and he's just like very eccentric
and I think that helps. Yeah, and they really respect
each other. Like my mom was like, no matter what,
the person that you're with forever, like you both need
(05:10):
to respect each other. To do whatever your job is
in the home, whoever's staying home with the kids, if
someone's staying home with kids, whoever's going out and making money.
If there's one person doing that, whatever your domains are,
you have to really respect and trust that person that
they can handle it, and like not micromanaging them, not
talking down to them, like you have to really trust
that they can handle it.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah, that sounds about right. My parents did the opposite.
Did they complete opposite?
Speaker 2 (05:31):
In many such cases.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
Yeah, in many cases. Yes, I wanted to ask your type.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Oh my type? Right, So unfortunately it is men from
New England. No, unfortunately, Massachusetts is not a lie, that's
that's just truth.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
Describe them to me. I've never dated someone from New England.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Well, I mean the guys that I have liked, like
It's the reason I think I like men from New
England is like a quickness, even if they're not highly
educated or they didn't care about school, It's like there's
just a quickness, there's a wit. And also they tend
to talk fast than men from the West Coast. There's
a sleepiness about a men from the West Coast totally.
It's like a very sleepy kind of a relaxed slow vibe. Yes. Yeah,
(06:08):
and these the men from New England, they can be
very chill, but they're yappers and that's.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
What I need. So you like someone funny yes, okay?
And a little bit mean?
Speaker 2 (06:17):
Yeah? Well yes, well yes, I think it's it's like
a they're mean, they're not mean to me, and but
then eventually they of course turn and than they are.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
Eventually there's something that we all love about, like dating
someone who's mean, but only nice to us.
Speaker 2 (06:30):
Well, here's the crazy part is that like these men
for the most part, they are like the charmer and
the beloved of their like friend group. But there's like
a mean undercurrent. There's something there that's a little bit
like snarky with it. The sharpness. Yes, yeah, it's the way,
it's the sharpness. Yeah, I don't know what that is.
I'm trying to. Well, I watch Goodwell Hunting at sixteen,
and I do think that was part of it, and
that was it well because the boy that I was
obsessed with when I was sixteen was like, you remind
(06:50):
me of Skyler from Goodwell Hunting, and I'd never seen
the movie. So I went and watched it and I
was like, first of all, that's very good compliment, right,
mini drivers everything. And then second of all, I was like, Okay,
Matt Damon from Whunting is my husband's beautiful?
Speaker 1 (07:02):
So good at math, so good at math, but not
like a graduate degree.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
Yes, that's what I love. He's showing up the guy
in the bar with the master's.
Speaker 1 (07:08):
He's working class and he's brilliant, and that's what I think.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
That's what I'm looking for. I think that when Ethel
Kaine said, he looks like he works with his hands
and smells like Marlboro reds.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
I was like, she got it.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
No, she always does tell me, like how it is
processing your love life through your music and your art.
Speaker 2 (07:24):
It's definitely it can be a crutch and it can
be dangerous because it's very easy to turn your life
and especially your love life into content and into art.
Speaker 1 (07:34):
I do know something about that, yes, yes, and so
it is.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
It is something that I've been trying to get better about.
It's like being more present in dating and life more generally.
But it is a problem, I think, especially with people
who are like really sensitive and want to romanticize their lives.
It's like we're kind of experiencing life as a story
as it's happening, like we're experiencing in retrospect in the present.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
And I also think so many men like do not
often feel perceived. So when you're on a date with
them and you're like noticing the way they're like moving
their body or they're like talking or whatever, and you're
calling them out on it, it's like the first time they're
aware of how someone sees them has been no exactly,
and there they don't often they're not often performing in
(08:14):
the way we are, you know what I mean? Like,
I feel like women dating men, like we're so often
like careful to present in the right way, and they
just are themselves, like they don't think about it as.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Much, and that's why we're so namored of them, because
they're not. There's so much that's not performance.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
You're so right, because I'm like, if I could just
be as apathetic as you to perception, where would I be? Yes,
you know, I feel like I would be could be anywhere.
Does being like a public facing person hurt or help
your love life?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
It? I feel like it mostly helps. I'm not gonna lie.
I feel like I'm mostly all I'm not gonna lie
to you.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
Hey, I love that answer.
Speaker 2 (08:49):
I think I mean it hurts in the sense that
like there are definitely well no, because like there's people
who don't want to be in the public eye. But
it's like that doesn't make them not want to be
with me. Oh maybe, and I just don't know about it.
You date your fans, like, do you know what I mean? Like,
if someone's a fan, are you like, ooh, it would well,
like another public figure who's a fan or like like
a private person who's a fan, because many of my
(09:12):
situationships have started with another public figure sliding in the
dance being like I love your music, and.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
You know what I wanted to know about your dms.
I would love to I would love to know what's happening.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
A while since I've had dms happening, like I don't.
I haven't done a DM that has not been my
dating bag recently, but there was definitely, like post my
big breakup, there was a couple of DM moments that
led to little situations and it was always flattering. I
mean the first time it happened, it was like a
guy who I considered kind of a celebrity crush, like
I watched his TV show during quarantine.
Speaker 1 (09:41):
How did you feel when because this has happened to me,
and I melted into a puddle and just absolutely loveful.
Speaker 2 (09:46):
Well it was like we like kind of had mutual friends.
So it was like I wasn't I was surprised that
he followed me on Instagram. I was like very giddy,
and then I think he followed me and I did
this slide like he opened the door and I walked
through it, and it was a very short lived thing.
But it was like very to go on a date
with a man who had been like all through lockdown,
like staring at on TV. I was like, oh my god, there.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Is you had to tell me afterwards to it?
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Okay, won't we won't.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
We won't air it now.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
If he listens to this keel, No, how was the date? Well,
we went to breakfast, which like girl what but like
it was he paid and she was He was really sweet,
Like he's very progressive. He was a little weird. But
like I think every if I've learned anything from dating
all the actors that I've dated, is like they're all
really weird.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Actors are freaks.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
They're all theater kids.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
No. Absolutely, every time I see a man on screen
and I'm like almost about to have a crush on him,
I'm like, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (10:37):
You must remember that that's a theater kid. And in
between takes, by the way, he's doing a fake French
accent and pretending to play with the sword, like I
promise you because I've seen it.
Speaker 1 (10:45):
No, right, we need to stay clocked into reality.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
And it's so funny because like I like this makes
it seem like I'm just like dating celebrities all the time,
I'm not, but like I have a friend who I
have written some songs with, and she has dated a
lot more celebrities than me, And every time I like
casually mentioned like, oh yeah, this guy from this movie
is so cute, like either she dated him or her
friend dated him, and she's like and here's all the
ways he's a weirdo. And I'm like, Okay, I.
Speaker 1 (11:04):
Feel like if you're actually really really beyond famous, like
you're a freak.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Or you don't even have to be that famous on right,
It's just I really do believe in the same way
that like me and my friends like we're all like, oh,
we're all weird because we're creative. It's like that extends
to actors as well, Like they're very creative people and
they're like very in touch with tapping into other personas.
And I think and that makes you, like, it kind
of makes you a little disembodied. I have to assume
like I've not dipped my toe into acting.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
I don't think of myself as an actor.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
And to go back to what we were saying, like,
I think those men are very aware of being perceived.
Men who are who are acting on a camera screen.
They are very aware of being perceived, and they're definitely
very conscious of how they're they're moving their bodies.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
I want to know about the breakup, of course, of course,
tell me about the breakup before people started sliding into
your DNS. I mean, I just I asked before, is
it like the biggest breakup of your life? Yeah? Just
say absolutely.
Speaker 2 (12:10):
I mean I didn't start dating until I was twenty three, Like,
I mean, I was going on dates, but I didn't
get in my first relationship. So I was twenty three,
and so this was my second relationship, and I thought
that he was the love of my life, Like.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Your first relationship was at twenty three, your second relationship,
which was the biggest one of your life.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
I was twenty four when that started. Okay, yeah, they
were very The first one was almost a year and
then only a couple weeks went by and between the
first and second. That's why I was just crazy, after
being a person who had never had a boyfriend ever
to then do that. I was like, I love how
I was like I was making up for lost time.
I was like time to get all of the boyfriends
in a row. Yeah, I guess, but yeah, I thought
(12:45):
he was the love of my life, like the beginning
of it. I mean, the same way it's every it's
like the beginning. I was like, oh my god, it's perfect.
He's perfect, I'm perfect. Everything's perfect. I literally remember like
a week and two when we were dating. I was
touring and I was like walking through the airport and
I was like, the airport is beautiful.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
Like of course, You're like, no, it actually is a
movie my life.
Speaker 2 (13:04):
But it was really I felt like my life was
a movie. And yeah, when we broke up, like it
was not my choice, it was all him. I was
completely devastated, like completely destroyed. I had just bought him
Christmas presents out of nowhere, like kind of there was
a there. He had been being weird for a couple
of weeks, but we've been dating for like nine months,
so I was like, oh, we're having like a little
rough patch, Like it's just we're having a little rough patch,
(13:25):
like I think would been different if we've been dating
for less time. But I was like, we've had this
really long run of it being amazing, and it was
really intense. Yes, it was extremely intense because we were
also long distance. A lot of the time, and so
it was like when we were together in the same place,
it was like we were just so locked on each other.
And so he was like, Oh, we're just having like
a little rough patch. Like that's no worries, it's only
been like two weeks of it being kind of weird.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
And then how did he do it? How did he
break up with you? Well?
Speaker 2 (13:48):
I remember, sorry, that's like, let's talk about it. He
came over to my house and I remember that he
didn't have his overnight bag and I was like, something
is a miss because he doesn't have his little backpack.
Speaker 1 (13:58):
On piss I'm pissed. What do you mean on your
tooth brush?
Speaker 2 (14:02):
I was like, where's your little backpacking? And so, but
I didn't say anything, and then we went into my
apartment and like, I don't even know if there was
any small talk. To his credit, he did get right
to the point. He just said I have some things
to say, and it just then nothing. And then I
was like, you're breaking up with me? And then he
didn't respond, damn.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
It, and you're shocked and you're just like what I actually.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
I was crying so much, and he was crying too,
but I was crying so much. I mean, I'm just
unfortunately I didn't like beg like I was. I wasn't
like don't do this, like don't change your mind like
I was, like, this is happening. I know it's happening.
I'm just devastated. And also I remember that when I
walked him back to his car and I walked back
to my apartment, I didn't look back, and I remember
thinking that that was like really powerful of me. Was
like I didn't look back. But it's like girl who cares?
Speaker 1 (14:40):
You got du no, but thank god he lets you go,
like he let you lose a caged bird.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
It was just, I mean, it was most it was
part of it was well, okay, the reason he broke
up with me is because he didn't love me anymore.
That's the reason why people don't. That's the reason why
people bring up with people.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
That's what you're saying, Like, I don't know if that's true.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
They had loved me. I think he stopped, but also.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
There are different types of love, Like if you just
stopped loving you in general, that feels incorrect.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I think he lost feelings. I think that's what happened.
I think his job was definitely a factor. But also
the distance we both traveled a lot for more totally,
and so that was But I think that if he
had thought that I was his forever, he would have
made we would have made it work because I thought
he was my forever. I Yeah, it was an No,
was a miracle I couldn't have I was actually thinking
about that recently, Like my second album, I don't know
what I like if we had been together, I'm like,
what the hell would I write? Totally those writing love
(15:25):
songs about him, and I was writing songs about the
challenges of being in our relationship as well, but like
those songs were just okay. Like I wrote the rearranger
about him, and that was like a beautiful, fun song.
But I wrote that, like I listened to that song
now and it's like really cute. It's like, oh, we
don't talk about the future, like we're just having fun.
And I'm like, that's a fun song to write about
a boy even nating for a month. That's a crazy
song that I wrote about a boy man ing for
eight months almost a year. Yeah, I wrote it like
(15:46):
towards the end of our relationship, and I'm like, girl,
why that's great? That was That was the red Flag.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
I love that You're like, I didn't expect the breakup
at all and writing.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
That, but like, I cause I was so you know,
you're so in denial when you're like that in love.
I thought he was perfect.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Why were you so in love with him? Girl?
Speaker 2 (16:02):
I thought, well, Okay, at the time, I thought he
was the most handsome man I'd ever seen in my life,
which I no longer believe, right, But I thought that,
and he was very good at mirroring me because I
look back now at a lot of the stuff, like
a lot of the moments that I felt like the
most connected to him, and it was a lot of
him kind of just like mirroring me. Yeah, And I
felt like I'd found someone who was really similar to me.
And I look back now and I look at kind
(16:23):
of how he's conducted himself after the breakup, and I'm like, no,
he's just kind of shape shifts, I think to who
he's with, which is not like it necessarily about many
people do that. Man, She was like, which is not
a bad things. Yeah, but I think that, like we
were much less compatible than I thought because I was like, oh,
he's just like me, and it's like, no, he was
not at all.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Did he reach out to you after the album came?
Speaker 2 (16:42):
I told my best friend. I was like, because she
was like, he's going to text you. Yeah, Like, I'll
give you one thousand dollars if he ever texted me
again in our lives way, he's never going to contact me.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
You're kidding.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I'm certain of it.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Because I'm someone who always goes back.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Well I know that I am. So the only guys
who have come back to me have been the ones
that I dumped very thinly. They'll like, hey, let's be
friends and get cough and I'm like, babe, you're not.
And I and I sometimes I'll play ball, but I
know that what's going on here. Yeah, but I mean
he we we talked after the breakup because I reached
out because I was sad, but it was I was
very mature about it. I was like, it was like
six months afterward. I was like, let's just get coffee
(17:15):
because we ran into each other at something and it
was totally fine and pleasant, and we texted a little
bit after that. But he has since stopped answering my
text which is fine. It's been like a year since
the last time I texted and I'm like it's whatever,
but yeah, he's I am certain he's never going to
contact me ever again.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
How long did it take you to get over it?
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I would say it took like the first kind of heat,
the first heat of recovery. Honestly, like they took the
length of the relationship. I feel like it took like
nine months, damn, because he he was dating this other girl,
like right after we broke up, and they broke up
and got back together. And I remember when I found
out that they had gotten back together the first time.
That was when I I had like a big crash
(17:53):
out and I was like nine months after we broke up,
and it was like after that crash out, I was like,
I think I'm better. And so then after that period
of being stressed about like him getting back together with
this girl, I.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Would like, hell better. Yeah I was your reach out
to him or her to him. Yeah, no, no, I'm
not out of you.
Speaker 2 (18:10):
I have a lot of pride. I was just like crazy,
like I'm privately, I'm being insane, and I mean I
was posting listen I say privately, I was posting a
lot of songs. I was writing a lot of songs
and put them on the Internet, and that was my
public grieving process, which I will never do again. Wait
why because even though I was like relatively coy, like,
(18:32):
surely he was seeing all of it. Like I don't
like I could tell myself that he wasn't because he
never like watched my stories or anything. But I'm like,
I feel like he probably had some idea of what
was going on, and like, I think it's just better
to process a little bit more privately. Like I think
it's being a person with a platform. It's like, of
course I'm going to talk about general themes, you know,
but I think it's better to come away from the
(18:53):
constant hamstery of posting process and then then share when
you've come to a conclusion of something kind we have
something to share. Like I wrote Massachusetts about a year
after we broke up, and then I put the song
out like six months after that. When I put the
song out, I made this substack post. It was like
breakup advice basically, and I was like, that was a
good thing to share because it was like, it's been
a year and a half since this breakup, I have
thoughts and feelings. I have fully figured out what this means.
(19:16):
For my story in my life, and that's really valuable.
And I think I'll continue to share about my life
when I can process it and take time away. But
it's the in real time, like I got dumped a
week ago and I'm writing a song about it and
I'm putting it on the internet. It's like it's not
as embarrassing as me like doing like a story time
about it. But it's like it is like that maybe
was something. I don't regret it because like I grew
my following that way, was literally documenting the songs I
(19:38):
was writing as going through that breakup. That's how I
grew my following. M But I don't think. I don't
think I need to do that again.
Speaker 1 (19:44):
You were twenty four, How old was He's a year older.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
He's okay, And at that point I was. I had
turned twenty five. He had turned twenty six at that point.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
And did you think y'all were gonna get married?
Speaker 2 (19:51):
I fantasized about it all the time in.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Your one of your songs, and I can't remember which
one you talk about, like you talked about having my
kids or you talked about raising.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
Okay, that was my first boyfriend and to father my children.
That was a threat.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Why would it be a threat?
Speaker 2 (20:04):
He was horrible. He was really horrib he was careful.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
First relationship was bad. Yes, yeah, do you want to
say why or no? I mean it was I would.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Say it was abusive. It was. It was not. I
was not saying and I didn't know that. It took
a long time for me to put that together. I mean,
that's what the that's what the second album is really about.
It's about these two relationships, which is why I try
to be really clear. I'm like, for the people who
know me and my exes, I'm like, I want to
be clear. Like, the songs about my second boyfriend and
my first boyfriend are very different. My second boyfriend was
not abusive. He was mostly a good guy. But yeah,
(20:35):
my first boyfriend definitely was. He but he was a
little bit older, and he was talking about marriage and
kids and stuff, and I was not like imminently but
like something that he wanted with me, and I was
every time he talked about it, I.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Was like, really, and who broke up with you? I
ended it okay good.
Speaker 2 (20:49):
Which was crazy because because it was my first relationship,
the first relationship, you were younger. Yeah, I was twenty
three when it started, and he was twenty eight, which
is not like that much older, but like, because I
had no life experience, it felt like a bigger age guy. Yeah,
but I was so surprised that I ended it because
like I had always thought, like, if I ever get
a boyfriend, like, I don't know how I could possibly
break up with someone, because like I've wanted this for
so long, And.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah, I was gonna say, like, how did it feel
as someone like, you know, growing up up to like
twenty two, not having a boyfriend, how do you think?
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Well, it's so I'm on TikTok all the time looking
at like late bloomer TikTok because I'm like, I know
what you girls. I know, ladies, I know, which is funny.
Also because I remember when I was dating that guy.
I made a TikTok talking about being a late bloomer
but us being together, and I got so many hate comments,
Like the video was kind of viral, and I got
all these hate comments from people who were much older
than me, who'd never had relationships. They're like, you think
(21:35):
twenty three is a late bloomer. It's like I thought
so because everyone made me feel so weird that I
didn't have a boyfriend in high school or college.
Speaker 1 (21:42):
Well, it kind of colors the way you're processing something. Yeah,
Like how you said like, oh, I thought I was
a late bloomer and then this TikTok of yours got
to like late late bloomer TikTok you know, like, and
so that colors the way you are perceiving your experience. Yeah,
And I just think like, while you're processing something, sort
of leaving that at bay and making sure you are
(22:04):
where you are before you give it. Yes, I have
given before I have known.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
I feel like, how do you feel about it? Like
do you feel like you look back at old tiktoks
and things and are like, oh, I kind of wish
I had waited to talk about that.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
We talk about this, me and my producer sometimes, Like
there was an era of last year where I was
posting and I was just like I look back at
those videos and I'm like, who is she? Literally don't know.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
It takes so little time six months a year, I'm
like unrecognizable.
Speaker 1 (22:30):
I'm like, no idea, who she is? Why is she
talking like that? What voice is that?
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Like?
Speaker 1 (22:34):
What is that cadence? Like is she okay, Like, so
definitely I learned in a really intense way not to
process in public and not to process with public opinion.
And I'm still figuring out when and how to put
my feelings out, even.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Because I don't think it's bad to do. Like I
think there's some people who are like it, she'll never
be shared, like you should just process in private, And
I'm like, well, I disagree, because I think as long
as we have the social Internet as a tool for
connection with other people, it's great to use it for
this purpose.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
It's definitely like a double edged sword.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Yeah, do you know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
It's just like you have to wield it carefully, like
the power of the Internet. Wait, so take me back
a little again. Breakup with Massachusetts Guy album comes out
a little bit after and then you're happily single, and
are you looking for love or you're looking to stay single?
How do you identify with like boyover in general? Well,
(23:31):
now I am not congratulations.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
Well so I at the beginning of twenty twenty four,
when I was like recording the album, I was I
thought I was going to be boysover. I fully planned it,
like I went on a horrible first date.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
And how what happened?
Speaker 2 (23:46):
He was he picked me up at a bar, which
had never happened before in real life, Yes, in real
lirl in the wild, yes, which I've never had that
happen before or since.
Speaker 1 (23:53):
Do you remember the line?
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Well, he sent his friend up to me, like his
friend was a weird guy, and his friend like said
something kind of gross to me, and I was like what.
And then the guy came up and was like, oh,
sorry about my friend. And then we started talking and
he's like, I'm gonna be honest. I like sent my
friend over to start the conversation because I was nervous
to talk.
Speaker 1 (24:08):
What a terrible allue.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
He's like, my friend is gross. I'm less gross. Nice
to meet you, Yeah, kind of. I was like, I
was just so. He was really tall, and so I
was like, okay, you're tall and you came up to
me in a bar in real life, I'm charmed. And
so we went on a date and it was a
terrible date. As it turns out. I at the onheen
I met at the bar, he was drunk and when
I met him sober, not a fan and I and
I went home and I like, I was like, I'm
(24:32):
done with dating for the rest of the year. It
was so bad, I was not going to date the
rest of the year. And then a couple of weeks later,
a damn slide did occur and I did get into
a relationship for a.
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Minute how much time?
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Three months?
Speaker 1 (24:41):
I knew it because it's always three months. Yeah, okay,
I just want I just wanted to confirm my suspicions.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
And I and I again, I ended both of those. Like,
I didn't realize I was going to be the breaker up.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
I was an adult. Are you usually the person who
breaks up?
Speaker 2 (24:53):
I have been mostly other than the one time I
got like, spectacularly dumped I. Since I've been in relationships,
I've pretty much been the copper.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Spectacularly dumped is so funny.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
And then I broke up with him because he was
too clingy. Okay, proud of you, which does happen sometimes,
of course. And then I was like, I would assume
guys are obsessed with you. I would say most of
my most of my dynamics with men, it definitely starts
if it's gonna go anywhere, it starts with them being obsessed.
If they're not obsessed, it's not gonna go anywhere. Yes,
but then it just depends like how long is it
gonna take for that obsession to kind of taper.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Off for them to really know. I've had guys meet
me and they like saw me and decided something about
me online first, and then they meet me in person
and they're like, wait, you are actually crazy or there
or it's like but like I or you're not what
I whatever the thing is I made up in my head,
You're not that. And it's like maybe they figure that
on a date one, Maybe they figured it out on a
date twelve. Yeah, but it's like eventually they're like, wait,
I get an idea and you're not pulling my script.
Speaker 2 (25:44):
Wait, yeah, I'm bringing.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Up with you because this is all I was going
to be like, Okay, so bad date. Thought you were
gonna go boysover for a.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Year a DM, last two weeks.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Well the DM, how you can do it?
Speaker 2 (25:54):
I mean it's so powerful, but yeah, we So we
did it for a couple of months. I broke up
with him and then I was like not going. I
was like I'm gonna be not gonna into a relationship,
like I want to have a little fun and like
get around. And then I asked a friend of mine
to set me up, and she did set me up
with her friend, and that was the situationship that a
few months and situationships.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Love him or leave them?
Speaker 2 (26:16):
You know, I'm gonna say love them. Oh, and I'm
gonna be a hot take about it, because, Okay, I
think if you're looking for a committed relationship, do not
get into a situation. Be very honest about your intentions.
But if you are looking to be chill vibes like,
it's granted. I did crash out about that.
Speaker 1 (26:30):
Man.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Yeah, I ended our situationship, but I was crashing out
so bad.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
What made you crash out?
Speaker 2 (26:35):
He never texted me ever, sick.
Speaker 1 (26:37):
I'm pissed.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
He never texted me every and he would only see
me once a week.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
I'm insane. No, I'm like, if I'm in a situationship
with you, if we are doing this together, I need
you to be almost my roommate. Once a week would
make me sick in the hand.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Well, because he was recovering, for he had been in
a really long relationship before that.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
I love you like he was recovering from a long relationship.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
So I don't listen. I don't want to put this
man on. He's a very private person. I would not
put this man, but yeah, he had a very long
I think he had like a series of long relationships
kind of close together. And he was like, I need
to be single. I am never since he was also
a little older, He's like, I need to single, I'm
never single. And I kind of got the vibe that
I was like that. He didn't say this outright, but
I kind of got the vibe that, like his next
relationship was going to be like the one, you know,
So I was like, I don't want to rush into that,
(27:17):
like I'm ready to have fun and beat chill vibes.
So the first like month and a half, I was like, yeah,
this is rad, Like he's not all up in my space.
Like when we see each other, it's great, but it's
very chill. And then something started to turn around. It
would have been like date five or six, and I
was like, well, we're every time we hang out, we
hang out like all day totally and like we talked
like we're also talking.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
That I think is the marker of a situationship is
like playing house.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
One of our last dates, I was holding laundry with him,
No and you're in We're watching the Dodger game, holding
Lundrey his dog on the couch.
Speaker 1 (27:48):
No, no, no, no, no, Dodgers dog laundry.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
I'm sick. I was like, no label, yeah, no label
fully fully Oh yeah, that was bad?
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Could make sense?
Speaker 2 (27:59):
No, yeah, I know a question it for the right age,
It was no, it was crazy, and but yeah. I
eventually ended it because we there was a point where
I was like, I'm not going to text him first
and just see what happens to hear from him for
a week. And I went and I literally hit him up.
I was like, girl, if you can't text me for
a week, we should not be doing this. And he
was like, you're right, damn.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
And that was that. Can I ask you, how do
(28:38):
you crash out? I mean you said you go crazy
in private?
Speaker 2 (28:41):
I go so crazy. I mean I I love to
go in my I have a walk in closet. I
love to go in my closet, sit on floor, lights off,
headphones on, music so loud, crying so hard that my
neck is.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Wet, and who are you listening to? Well.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
During that period of time, the new Katie Gavin album
had just dropped, and so that was the soundtrack for
that Okay, when I went through my big breakup that
was one week before for Sos by Sissa, and so
that was my that was my breakup album for that.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
Oh so good. Yeah, okay, situationship is over and again
You're happily single.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
That was after I recovered from that crash out. That
was when I was like, oh, I think I'm happy
to be alone right now. And so that was like
November December of last year, so kind of all of
twenty twenty five, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm happily single,
which was like amazing. It was the kind of the
first time in a really long time, if ever, that
I was like really single by choice, really happy. I
(29:30):
wasn't fully boys sober because I was still going on dates,
but it was very much I was like, very definitively
like I don't want these to lead to relationship.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
And let me also say, I think you can be
boys sober and go on dates as long as you're
not getting obsessed. That is like the true takeaway of
boys Sober.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Yeah, it's f Dee centering exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
So it's like if you're having fun, if you're going
on dates, if you're sleeping with people. That's fine, that's
amazing that do that. My issue is like I become obsessed.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Of course so quick, and that was what resonated with
me about your content was like I know, yeah, I
really know, oh that bag, and like I know how
it feels to like have your day consumed by waiting
for a text message and your day ruined.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Why not receiving I saw a crush of mine. I
was scrolling Instagram.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
By the way, how many crushes are we having right
now for you?
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Actually none. I had a crush that was so limerents
object heavy, like every waking moment, every Instagram story, every everything,
every everything for him. And then finally I asked him.
I was like, what do you want from me? And
he was like nothing. And since that rejection, I've actually
(30:34):
been so thankful for it, Like because since that rejection,
I've been like let off the hook. But I am like,
I know I have this like sick dog inside of me.
Speaker 2 (30:43):
So when he said that, you were immediately like not
interested anymore?
Speaker 1 (30:47):
No, But I I like stopped smoking weed, I stopped drinking,
I gave up like nicotine, Like I don't have any
crushes right now, Like I do still need to sleep
with someone every now and again. So that's that is
something I needed.
Speaker 2 (31:00):
You're like very clear headed.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
I'm trying to be. That's why I woke up so
angry this morning. It's too clear. I'm like getting really
comfortable with anger these days because I'm like, like yesterday,
I woke up so mad probably the world.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yeah, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (31:15):
Because there's a lot going on that's like what we
have in this day and age as well. It's like
we have our personal problems and then we get on
our phone and we see like what's happening.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Yeah, there's the background chaos of like everything is horrible,
like democracy is burning everywhere, people are suffering, and then
it's like, oh and my situationship didn't text me. That's
my final.
Speaker 1 (31:32):
Strong And I don't believe in romantic love right now.
I'm sick. Right, So anyways, do I have any crushes?
Honestly no, But enjoy.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
This because one's gonna come for you, and you're gonna
be like I was so young.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
Well, because like you said, it's like you were finally
happily single. Yeah, you were going on dates, but you
were not desperate.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Not at all. And also I mean I was getting more.
I've been getting more selective.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
Good for you. How quickly do you get the ick?
And what gives you the egg? Pretty quick, dude, pretty quick.
Everything's been giving me the itck recently.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
Exclamation points, Oh yeah, okay, no, I want to I
want to hear more X. I love that.
Speaker 1 (32:09):
Well, I'm just like this guy was texting me a
lot of exclamation points, and I'm like, calm.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Down, and that's well, that's Frankly. I made a joke
about this psychologist, like, you know you love someone if
you love them even when they get a bad haircut.
And I think this is before the term ick would
have even really entered the left totally. And that's kind
of the thing. Now. It's like if a man that
I was really quite infatuated with sey exclamation points, I'd
be honest. But a man, I'm like on the fence
about don't do that.
Speaker 1 (32:30):
No, And I actually, this is what I realized about
X the other day. So I was like, no, they
don't exist. You just don't like that person. Yeah, like
there is no giving me. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (32:37):
I mean every married couple I know, it's like they're like, oh, yeah,
we've pooped on each other. We vomited on each other,
like we and we still love it. And I'm like, yeah,
because that Unfortunately, when you're like Madley in love, that
is the situation.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
Yeah, that's how that's how we're rocket.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
I did get the ick. I was one of my
like dates that I went on earlier this year. I
thought that it was going fine, and then he walked
me to my car and he leaned in to kiss me,
and I grabbed his arm and went, no, your.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Body takes over. My body keeps the score.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
I had never in my before that I never knew
what people meant when they were like, oh, yeah, you know,
like when a guyland's in for a kiss and you're
not into it, and I was like no. I was like,
no man's ever tried to kiss me without me sending
such obvious signals that I wanted to happen and that
and then it did happen to me. I was like,
it happened to me. Ama, A man did lean over
to kiss me on a street corner and I.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
Went, no, what did he say?
Speaker 2 (33:22):
I lied? I said I don't do that on the
first date.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
Lie, big lie, and then perfect lie and kind of lie.
Speaker 2 (33:30):
Sometimes lies are perfect and beautiful.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
I think so too. I just think it saves everybody.
It's like, no worries.
Speaker 2 (33:35):
I'm like, I like to think of myself as a
pretty honest person, but when it comes to being on
dates and trying to get out of them or things
on the dates, I'll say, oh, yes anything.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
My neighbor tried to say he wanted to sleep with
me yesterday and I was like, I don't shit where
I eat, I do, I have and I will again
I have. But I was like, that's a perfect thing
to say to him, because.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
It makes sense.
Speaker 1 (33:57):
I mean, it's also true. It's like you're my like
I'm not gonna sleep with you and then have to
see you on the.
Speaker 2 (34:03):
Stoop like yeah, you know, no, it's and it's that's
about thing to say. But I have, like, ye have
a lot of tried and true excuses, but I get
think very easily.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
But tell me, yes about this new relationship and why
it works and why you didn't run and why are
in it and what happened and just tell me tell
me to well.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
I mean, he's very private and I definitely want to
keep it pretty private. But we met through friends we'd
met before, like years ago, like uh at something and
we were both dating other people at the time, so
I didn't think anything about it. And then yeah, just
like years past, I was always vaguely aware of him.
I didn't even follow on Instagram, like truly, like David,
no thought. And then what is it that.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
They say about like your anxiety and your heart and
your body and everything, Like the person you will love
is actually someone when you meet them, your body is calm. Yeah,
like we look for butterflies, we look for like excitement.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
But I mean I should say I'm definitely I have
butterflies for sure. I have butterflies for sure. But Okay,
we met in personnel. Okay, it was like a thing
that we were both at right and yeah, we just
started talking. And even when we were first speaking to
each other at this event, no part of me was like, oh, yeah,
like this is like I didn't. It was only after
we'd been talking for hours that I was like, I
think I texted my best friend. I was like, I
(35:10):
think remember that guy was like I think we're gonna kiss.
Oh my god, and he was like, go for a queen. Yah. Yeah,
it's very like extremely extremely new.
Speaker 1 (35:20):
I'm like, is it moving slow? Is it moving fast?
Are you saying I love you? What's going on?
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I love you? It's moving fast in the sense that
like we've like put a label on it, I guess already,
like my girlfriend, no, no. We were like, what.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
What do you mean? Because people are so scared of
labels now like people are so they are I think
men and women too. Like I feel like, because I'm
scared of labels, I have commitment issues. I run so
I do not think this is just a man thing.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
No, not at all. And I was feeling I was
talking to one of my best friends earlier in the year,
and like he and I talked about relationships a lot,
and we both were saying how much we both have
commitment issues and so I hate to be like when
you know you know, But it was just like it
didn't feel crazy like every time like with other people
that I've been and it fast felt rush like I
felt like we're going too fast, We're going too fast,
(36:03):
and this like it didn't feel like that. But yeah,
I mean he tryingly, he was like, what are we
the man? The man brought up the one oar we conversation.
I was like, perfectly. I at the time, I was
going into like when we were going to see each other.
I was like, oh, yeah, like we could because I'd
been away and we'd been like facetiming cute, and I
was like, oh, surely, like I we can just keep
doing this as is like it's I don't care.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
But I feel like the fact that y'all are face
timing is like that's such a green flag. I haven't
facetimed demand.
Speaker 2 (36:31):
No. Actually, I was worried that he wasn't going to
want to do it, but like we hung out like
two times before I left for a lot of travel stuff.
We were texting and I was like, yeah, like the
next time we talk on the phone or in person
or whatever, and they said, O, yeah, we should talk
on the phone. And then we did and I was
like it was so great, and like we ended up
facetiving like a lot, and that was I kind of
figured that like we were headed towards it becoming more serious,
but we hadn't. I was like, maybe he's still like
(36:52):
sleeping like falling.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
I don't know. Long phone call face time feels like
so serious.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
That's boys and girlfriend, I think, as I was thinking,
but I was like I don't want get ahead of and
I really was like, yeah, he's face sending me. But
I'm like, but he could be sleeping with any I'm
not in La, not in a week, I don't know. Yeah,
and you just really never know what these with these people.
But yeah, when I when we hung out, when I
got back, yeah, we were just talking and we were
we both said we weren't seeing other people. And then
I was like, just out of curiosity, what's the difference
(37:18):
between exclusive and boyfriend girlfriend? He was like, no difference,
and I was like, Okay, what a breath of fresh
And that's the thing that I think, and I hate.
I hate to be that girl that's like, you know,
than when you're not well.
Speaker 1 (37:29):
I was gonna was my next question is what's your
dating advice for someone for me?
Speaker 2 (37:34):
I mean, I think, like, I think you're allowed to
be looking for it. I absolutely think you're allowed to
be looking for it. Like I've been set up twice.
The mass Chooses Man was a set up, and then
my situationship Blash was set up. Both of those were awesome,
even though they ended, you know, not great.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
But I also feel like something I appreciate about, appreciate
about what you've been saying all day is I feel
like you're a little bit like ride the wave, like
maybe like your pro situationship I am, and me a
little bit too, because I'm like get close to the sun.
Speaker 2 (37:59):
You know, not first of all, if you get into
a relationship, it's like the implication is like we both
see this going somewhere. I don't know where, like not
necessarily like marriage, but it's like we see this going
at least for the next few months. I think of
it as like kind of like a lease, like getting
into relationship, Like I'm least in this car. I'm like,
we'll see if I re up right and I feel
good about it. I want to drive it for a
while totally see if I.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Ran here for a minute.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Yeah, let's just say the situationship is like I don't
necessarily see this going anywhere totally, and it's like there
is no future. There's some kind of chemistry happening, and
I don't want to not hang out with you just
because I don't think it's forever, but like I do
want it. I want to see it through to something.
And I think if you're not looking for a relationship,
that's no reason to not have romance and no greed. Yeah,
but I think it's just really important to be clear
(38:40):
about what you want. And in my case with situationships,
is like, as soon as I realize I want a relationship,
I have to basically ask for it, and if they
don't want it, then it's like, okay, we're done. Like
I can't be I don't I'm not a fake chill girl.
Like as soon as I'm not, in fact a chill girl,
I'm like, hey, by the way, I'm not chill anymore.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
No.
Speaker 2 (38:52):
Sorry, I was chill before, I'm not chill now. No,
and then we have to be done.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
Yeah, And I love that. I feel like you have
to get that out.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
And like I've I've crashed out over a one week
situationship in my day.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:03):
And so it's like I don't want to say like
I'm amazing at keeping control and keeping my cool. I'm
certainly not all the time. But the older I get,
the more selective I'm getting. And yeah, I just I
think the biggest thing is to be be really honest
with yourself and the people that you're dating about your
intentions and just stop trying to pretend that you want
stuff you don't want, and that goes both ways, Like,
don't tell people you want a relationship if you know
(39:23):
you don't, because you're just going to break up with
them in two months and they're going to freak out.
That's evil.
Speaker 1 (39:29):
What is like something you've had to unlearn about love?
Speaker 2 (39:33):
I think, I mean one of the biggest things is
just that, like, it doesn't solve anything other than the
problem of the lack of romantic love. The only thing
getting into a relationship does is it solves the problem
of you being single, which doesn't have to be a
problem if you don't want to be I know, historically
I have thought, like before I ever got into a
serious relationship, or when periods where I was feeling really lonely,
I was like, oh, if I just got a boyfriend,
(39:55):
then all of this other stuff I'd.
Speaker 1 (39:57):
Be able to deal with. Everything else will disappear.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
And I will say that I'm very conscious in this
relationship of like, you don't have to be consumed, and
so like I've been very conscious of like still like
really making time to be by myself and really being
present on all the travel that I've been doing for work,
like I was playing with Hosier and like I was
going to this movie premiere, and like in the moments
when I'm doing that stuff, I'm like, he is not
on my mind. I Am one hundred percent locked in
(40:20):
on this thing that I'm doing because these are the memories.
I hope we stay together. Like I don't know what's
gonna come, but like when I'm an old lady, like
I'm going to be remembering like this stuff, like frankly,
like not to make like my life is about work,
but like this is like all my happiest memories of
my ODLD life or my work right, And it's like
I'm trying to remember, like to stay focused and like
really take mental screenshots of all of the tactile experiences
(40:41):
of being on those stages and being in those rooms,
because like that is what really fills me.
Speaker 1 (40:45):
Ah well, Jensen, thank you so much for coming so
much fun we did it. Thank you so much to
Jensen for taking time out of your busy schedule to
talk with us. I can't wait to hear the album
that this new era of love inspires, and thank all
(41:06):
of you for listening. And as always, I'll talk to
y'all next week. Boy Sover is a production of iHeart Podcasts.
(41:26):
I'm your host, Hope Ordered. Our executive producers are Christina
Everett and Julie Pinero. Our supervising producer is Emily Meronoff
engineering by Bahid Fraser and mixing and mastering by Aboo Zafar.
If you liked this episode, please tell a friend and
don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to boy Sober
(41:47):
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, and wherever you get
your favorite shows.
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