August 22, 2023 • 41 mins
Picking up on last episode’s theme of continuous learning, Marisa and Steven debate understanding Gen Z as this rising generation becomes increasingly important as consumers… and employees. Joining them for the conversation is a true Gen Z wunderkind: 24-year-old social entrepreneur Ziad Ahmed, Founder and CEO of JUV Consulting and an inaugural Obama USA Leader via the Obama Foundation. Stay to the end for “What’s on YOUR Minds,” where the hosts answer a listener’s question about how can you best pivot your career. (Hint: it’s not about the title).
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hi, Aaron. Welcome to Brand New from the iHeart Podcast
Network and Brand New Labs. I'm Marissa Thalberg and I'm.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Steven Wulf DNA and how are you, Marissa?
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I am very well. How are you? What's going on?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Well, other than a tropical storm coming to LA. I mean,
it's just a little bit of rain, but I think
will be okay, I hope.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
So we East Coasters are kind of used to it
New York are here in LA.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I always feel, you know, everyone is a little bit
overreacting to the weather, but they're not prepared for it usually,
so we'll take it over a brain of salt.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
So what happens, I know when there's bad weather in
the East Coast as everyone goes to the movies, or
at least they used to post COVID, and I think
it's happening again. Is that happening in La? Is everyone
of the movies this weekend?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yes, Barbie has. Certainly it's still running its course. Not
as many folks wearing pink to the movie theaters. But
we were blue yesterday because I took my family to
go see Blue Beetle. Are you familiar with Blue Beetle?
MERSA that's a pause.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I want to be cool, but I'm going to be honest.
I always choose honesty. No, Okay, I've heard of it,
but I don't know a lot about it, so tell me.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I'm a big comic book nerd judge me. It'll be
okay if you don't know Blue Beetle, because that is
kind of like a second or maybe even third tier
DC character. But it was actually a really big deal
because this is the first Latino led superhero movie with
this incredible big deal. It's a huge I mean, like
(01:35):
all like Latino you know, leading cast, and the star
of it is this guy Sholo Marty Duenia, who some
folks may have seen him in Cobra Kai, which was
a big hit you know, started on YouTube and is
now on Netflix. But Solo, you know, it's it's abolled
xol o. You know, he's twenty two years old. You know.
I was with him a couple of months ago at
(01:56):
the Red Bull F one tournament and he is just
going to blow up. I think. I think he's going
to be a huge, huge star. And the movie was
really entertaining and fun. George Lopez was in it and
he had a big role Susan Sarandon played the villain.
But it was very well done. The first time to
really see a Latino superhero in action.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
I mean that must have been pretty meaningful for your kids.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
It was huge.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Did they have a really big reaction to that?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
My kids loved. I mean, Siana's still five, so a
little bit under the radar in terms of really understanding
everything going on. But my son, he's eight, and he
is like smack in the middle of this. He loves
superhero movies and it was very meaningful to see a
Latino on the screen. You know, it's very well done,
culture authentic, a lot of great references. I mean they
were references to music and novelas and all this kind
(02:42):
of stuff. So it was a very proud moment. And
I know a lot of the folks that were involved
in either management, writing, directing, and so it's just an
incredible effort. So if you haven't seen it, please go
see Blue Beetle. It's a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
That sounds great. I mean, this is why we say
things like representation matters.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
It's not tride, absolutely matters.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Does matter?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
What about you? What's new with you?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
I'll tell you what we just did which is funny
when you reflect on the journey, the journey that we
have and our own identities. We don't call them brands
per se, but I mean if we had a brand
as a couple and as a family, we were a
brand New York, New York City. We're raising our kids.
I mean they were in public school on the Upper
West Side. The idea of the whole Friday night lights,
(03:23):
I mean that existed on TV, not in my reality.
And then our and then our girls went to art school.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
American football is in New York City.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I'm talking American football. I know you prefer the soccer
version of football. The rest of the world thinks of football. Yes,
And then we moved to California. Our girls are still
in performing art school. But now here we are in
Charlotte with our younger daughter, who, in the spirit of
talking back to school, is now back to school as
a high school senior. I could pinch me. I can't
believe it. It's so crazy, but we wound up going
(03:53):
to see her school play in this championship Wow football
game at Bank of America Stadium, which is where the
Panthers play the professional football team plays. Because they're there.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Oh, it's big.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
I mean, it's like really crazy to watch your high
school football team and I thought, wow, how our lives
have changed. I mean, it was amazing, it was fun.
They won, by the way, go Providence Day.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
But it makes you just think about how we as
people just like brands. And this is not a false parallel.
I think about this all the time. They evolve, you know,
they change. I never thought our identity as a family
would be anything other than that. And it's just interesting
how life has taken us down this different path and
(04:34):
in many ways broadened us and enriched us. And so yeah,
never expected that, never expected to be cheering our high
school football team in a professional football stadium. But that's
what makes it all interesting, I guess.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
But it's so interesting that you talk about yourself as
a brand and the things that brand you. You know,
I'm a born and raised New Yorker as well, and
I always thought that that would be raising my kids
in New York, right, And for me, it's you know,
still kind of hard to wrap my head around that
I live in LA. Both my kids were born in California,
and they're having this very different experience from the experience
(05:08):
I had growing up. It's so important for me for
the kids to get to New York, to ride the
subway to B Street, smart like all those kind of things.
I'm trying to figure out how they learn that. But
it kind of really comes back to this idea of
back to school that we had in our last pod,
and this idea of always lifelong learning. For sure, I
feel like this is almost going to be a little
bit of a back to school part two, and how
(05:30):
do we really stay on top of trends and things
that are going to be really important to learn, especially
around some of the things that either talking about Solo
and Blue Beetle or your daughter really around gen Z.
So I feel like that's kind of the hot topic
that we should get into for this pod.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I love it. Let's go there because I think the
thread from what we were just talking about too is
the idea that you learn when you're most outside of
your comfort zone too. And so for those of us
who aren't gen Z but understand the importance of getting
them on some fundamental levels as marketers, as people in media,
(06:05):
in tech and all the different fields we talk about,
or simply as employers, which is what we are now
to this rising generation. It's interesting because they you know,
each generation has some different qualities, and this generation is
coming out of COVID, out of all sorts of different challenges,
(06:25):
our climate situation, there's a lot of complexity, and of
course the true digitally native generation more than anything else.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Absolutely well, just to ground kind of our listeners. So
gen Z these are the folks that came after millennials,
kids that are born between nineteen ninety seven and twenty twelve,
And believe it or not, gen Z now makes up
one out of every five Americans and it's about plus
or minus you know, seventy million, So it's obviously a huge,
(06:55):
huge demographic and it's rising. And to your point, I
feel like they're really coming to their own coming out
of COVID and all these really traumatic experiences that they
have as their upbringing, and so I feel like they have,
you know, kind of these really different emotions. There's a
lot of anger, there's a lot of frustration. They questioned authority.
(07:16):
But you know, you certainly see it not just as
a mom, but also as an executive in the C suite.
So I mean, how are you kind of approaching learning
about gen Z and just really dealing with this very
different demographic.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Well, I feel a special connection and maybe responsibility this generation.
First of all, I am proudly the mother of gen
z Ers, and I hope not in the remote way
that previous generations had with their you know, their offspring,
but in a more connected way. It's really important to me.
But also as someone and we've talked about this before
(07:49):
that really ushered in the social media revolution to brands
and proselytized it and have always been a really enthusiastic adopter.
This is the first generation really reared on it. And
when we talk about where you learn from, whether it's
learning from LinkedIn or Instagram or certainly TikTok and the
connections I love, and I think this generation loves all
(08:11):
those qualities of social media. But we also now conclusively
know there's a real dark side in this generation's mental
health has been really impacted and how that now shapes
them coming into their adulthood, coming into positions of authority
and economic power. We don't really know. This is an
crazy social experiment we've unleashed on ourselves. And so I'm
(08:36):
not going to propose that I have the answers, except
to say that I think it is going to require
a certain amount of recognition that we've changed the game profoundly,
and how it plays out is something we're going to
have to figure out collectively in terms of different needs
a desire I think for different levels of trust, authenticity, confidence,
(08:56):
self confidence, what it means to be empowered in the workforce.
I think the rules have changed because of this, and
we're myopic if we think we could just superimpose all
the ways in which work and consumerism, all that has
applied in the past and just think, oh, it's just
going to be a few trends that change. I think
(09:17):
it's really different. And that's the reason why.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, I could not agree with you more. But let's,
you know, kind of debate a little bit of understanding
gen Z from a couple of different vectors, because there
is the way that gen Z wants to really represent
and kind of have their authentic voice, and they expect
a lot from leaders in the C suite today, And
(09:42):
at the same time, I feel like leaders in the
C suite when they try to connect in authentic ways
with gen Z, we're going to kind of get hit
from the other end, where people that are our peers
in the C suite other executives, They're going to be like,
what are you doing? Like why are you on TikTok?
Or why are you trying to look cool? Or why
are you you know, on video. It's It's very interesting
because I think executives are going to have to learn
(10:02):
how to navigate and have one foot in both worlds
because the demands are going to be different from a
CEO that you know, They're probably not going to understand
what you are doing as a marketer to connect with
this audience, and then the gen Z audience is really
going to demand that you show up with your authentic self.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
I don't really know the answer to that one, Stephen,
So we can debate it, but the reality is I
feel really personally conflicted about that too. I feel conflicted
about it well because I'm an executive that feels the
pressure of the decorum of traditional corporate America, which I
actually do have a tremendous amount of respect for. And
(10:38):
I also feel like I have really good personal instincts
about what it is to connect and to live my
life in a more publicly authentic way through social media,
and that is something that came to me with age.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
So you're a gen z er at heart.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Maybe maybe, but you know, it's very interesting because not
everyone has that philosophy. And then it's like, which way
am I going to be judged? Am I going to
be judged from the top, from the bottom, right, left? Negatively? Positively.
It's a lot of pressure, and the more visible your
professional role is, the more conflicted you feel about wanting
(11:12):
to make good choices and wanting to satisfy all constituents,
if you will, but at the same time having the
good instincts to trust yourself and I think to be
authentic is genuinely are generally a good decision.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
It's going to be really hard for traditional hierarchical companies, infrastructures,
organizations to truly understand how to connect with this audience
in an authentic way. I think it's something that we
really need to learn. I think there's so many different
dimensions to gen Z not just that they're digital natives,
not just that one in five Americans today and they
really have this entrepreneurial spirit. They are also almost fifty
(11:50):
percent diverse, and so I think you now have a
generation that grew up without seeing themselves and they want
to have a voice going to places where they can
actually express that voice. And they're also looking for leaders
that are going to listen to them, not talk down
to them or talk at them, but really talk with them.
And I feel like that's hard for a lot of
(12:11):
companies or a lot of brands.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Well, but I somewhat disagree with you on the fact
that they haven't seen themselves that you arguably this because
of digital and social media. This is the generation that's
had more accessibility to seeing themselves versus if you lived
in a small town that was really homogeneous, you truly
never had a chance to see people like yourself, if
you are different or unlike yourself, if everyone was the same.
(12:34):
So that again the good side and the bad side.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Right, Look, they're pockets, pockets and social media. But again
we just reopened the pod talk about Blue Beetle.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
This is the first which I didn't know about, so
very go.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
First ever superhero movie with a Latino leads. Yeah, and
Latinos are twenty percent of the US population today, going
to over a third in the next call it ten
to fifteen years, So we still have a lot of
work to do, and so there are a lot of
stereotypes and tropes and people are finding voice where they've
never really had it, and so I feel like that
(13:09):
is something where the need to kind of question authority,
question power, question the way things are done. Question back
to work, I mean just the remote work, just all
these things are being questioned. The spirit of questioning everything
and not seeing themselves. You also see this incredible rise
in entrepreneurships.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Well, maybe this is a nice segue to someone that
we wanted to bring on to give us a fresh
voice on this topic because he's not only very much
of Generation Z himself, but he's managed to make himself
a CEO at age twenty four, so he can speak
from all different perspectives. Definitely a fresh voice, and when
we're back, you're going to get to hear from him.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
And we're back, and it's time for our very special guest,
a brand new POV on the pod. Welcome, Zi David.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Thank you so much for having me. Steven. I'm so
thrilled to be here chat with both of you. I'm
such a fan of both of yours and your leadership,
and so grateful to call you both friends, and I'm
just excited to have this chat today.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
We're excited too.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
We're thrilled, and so Ziad you are a twenty four
year old social entrepreneur who co founded your own consulting firm,
jew Have Consulting. Yeah, and you have this interesting focus
on gen Z. I mean, Marssa, do people care about
gen Z these days?
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Not at all, end of interview, just kidding, of course
they do. And I think what's so interesting to think about.
I mean, as much as it's so hard to stereotype
a generation, none of us want to be stereotyped. There
are these really significant differences across the years, across the decades,
and you've got this whole group of emerging adults or
(14:48):
true bona fide adults who are coming out of school,
out of school and expressing their power as consumers but
also as employees. And I think that's a really interesting
way for us to think about this.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Or in my case as an employer, that's right.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
I guess you are and twenty four years old and
you've already been at this for a while. So I
think what's just interesting in the theme of our second
take back to school from a sense of always learning,
as we wanted to make this just a great learning
conversation about what is on the minds of gen z today.
And I know that sounds trite. We won't make it trite. Really,
(15:24):
what does it take for a marketer, a business person,
anyone who's starting to recognize this is a whole different
generation with a different set of beliefs, values, behaviors, and
you're living it as one but also as a true
leader of one every day. What should we know?
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Look, I obviously have a lot to say on this topic.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, and I'm.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Still wrestling with you calling you a bona fide adult.
I think the most important place to start this conversation
in terms of like lifelong learning right is to interrogate,
like when do we learn right and where do we
best learn right as marketers, as people, as students? And
what I ask my clients often and folks from other
(16:04):
generations that I talk to, is when is the last
time you talk to a gen Zer that wasn't your
kid or that wasn't your employee? And the answer is
very often not at all. Never. And so what that
means is that most people are actually never talking to
gen zers when they don't occupy all the position of power.
And how much can you actually learn when fundamentally you
(16:26):
hold all the power and the relationship. And I think
that what we're really trying to rethink as we think
about gen Z having this voice pushing on the future
of work, pushing on the future of business, pushing on
the future of social impact, whatever it might be, is
I want for folks to have conversations with gen Zers
as equals, right, because I think that's when we learn
when we have the full ability to challenge each other, right.
(16:47):
And Like, why I'm so grateful to like being in
conversation with you all and like, you know, have rubbing
shoulders with you and your friends at conferences is it
is very rare that someone my age is in those
rooms and spaces. And the fact that you guys have
embraced me as a friend right as a call league,
means a lot to me. But most of my peers
can't relate to that experience.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
But that might be a really just great insight to
start with. Because gen Z say that they want to
be treated as equals. That is a fundamental shift in
a power dynamic. Yeah, when I started my career, it
was very hierarchical. It's like the boss knows everything. You're
at the bottom. But I take it that is not
the mindset of gen Z consumers today.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
That's one hundred percent right. And look, it's something that
I see both sides of. On one hand, I am
like the fifteen year old who got up on stages
and so you're gonna listen to us now, INT's top
of the table. As I am a twenty four year
old CEO who's I'm the man now, right, and my
employees are asking me to be the change.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
You're the man, You're the man.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
I don't know about that, but no, I'm like the
man in like the preporative sense. I see that tension, right,
because sometimes I'm just like, please just listen to me.
And I have employees, and I understand where that tension
comes from. But I do think by and large, like,
of course marketers want to understand gen Z. However do
they want to understand their employees. It really should start
at home. It should always start at home. That's where
(18:01):
learning starts. And so there's this sense of like, oh,
of course I want to reach gen Z. I want
to understand gen Z. But then not even necessarily a
willingness to do that with the gen Z is right
in front of them, right, Because if you can't understand
the basic needs of your employees, how can you understand
the most complex needs of your consumer, who are abstract
and far away from you. And so what I always
say is that I think that like the most important
(18:21):
thing that we can do is treat every conversation as valid,
as righteous, right, whether or not we agree. I think
that oftentimes it is the position of the typical institutions
of power to dismiss, to be like gen Z doesn't
what they're talking about. It's naive, it doesn't matter. And
so I think creating space where you have the emotionally
laborious conversation, even if it annoys you, even if you disagree,
(18:43):
because you treated as righteous, you're treated as valid with
your employee and with your consumer, and you realize how
much you don't know right and hopefully find some sense
of common ground. But I think so often that conversation
is entirely glossed over because folks are avoiding the uncomfortable
and are operating based on archaic hierarchy that is no
longer indicative of where society is today and is increasingly
(19:05):
the reason why a lot of brands feel stagnant and archaic,
because that's how their companies are operating.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Do you think we're in a bit of an in
between land? And I suppose I'm leading the witness in
the way I'm framing the question because I kind of
do with regards to the traditional archetypes of leadership, very hierarchical,
like Steven said, But then this idea that it should
be I don't know, more democratized, where people with a
(19:32):
lot less experience are coming in and have an equal
point of view. Are we in this in between place?
And where do you see that going? Because there should
be some value in long term experience.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Experience matters, of course.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
But at the same time, I wonder if the message
hasn't really gotten all the way through to traditional boardrooms,
like talking the talk versus walking the walk, about what
it means to change a corporate culture, what it means
to really embrace this emerging generation is they want to
be And I mean, look at the whole thing about
back to work, that's not really about what listening to
your younger constituents.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
And I think absolutely weren't in between, right, I think
to the point I just made, I think most managers
did not sign up to be managers with the assumption
that they would have to perform as much emotional labor
as gen Z is now demanding of them m hm.
And so there is a lot of folks the top
were like, that's not my job, I'm not doing that,
And then you have a lot of folks under them
who are like doing all of that emotional labor but
haven't yet gotten to the real seat of power. So
(20:28):
I think there is an in between moment and sort
of that evolution of corporate culture and evolution of where
a society is. But I also think I was like
at Zicon Actually, one of the executives during this segment
where executives challenge gen Z's thinking, was like, but gegen
Z even want to learn anymore?
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (20:44):
I think that's sort of like a provocative question to
ask given the topic that we're talking about today, because
it feels like to them that gen Z thinks there
really know everything, like the gen Z even want to learn.
And the way that I sort of responded was, I
think absolutely gen Z wants to learn, but I think
we're very skeptical of a lot of things that we've
been taught, and a lot of the teachers that exist
(21:05):
currently are fundamentally gaslighting us, and so it's about having
the right teachers that we trust, that are candid with
us such that learning feels fruitful. And I think gen
Z is operating a lot of conversations with the very
righteous skepticism because historically, corporate America, historically a lot of
institutions of power have intentionally misled or mistreated diverse, marginalized communities.
(21:27):
And so a lot of gen zs are entering the
conversation with a sense of skepticism that I think is justified.
Are hungry to learn, but want to learn from people
that we believe are being honest with us.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
But you're hitting on semi which is so powerful, which
is you are questioning authority. You're starting from a place
where when someone opens their mouth, whether it's individual, whether
it's a leader at a company, whether it's a brand
marketing something, you're not just assuming that as truth correct.
And so the fact that you get to question everything
(21:59):
is probably incredible way disheartening for a lot of folks,
frustrating for many folks. And also it's like, why are
you guys questioning everything that's right? Does that factor into
just the way that you have grown up digital first?
You know the way you've been consuming media, would you
say that your peers, your generation are jaded one thousand?
Speaker 3 (22:20):
First, look, gen Z's not a monolith, and to the
point around stereotyping, right of course, but by and large, unquestionuly.
I mean there's a sense of nihilism, right like, the
world is already on fire, literally and metaphorically. Our lifetimes
have been bookmarked by tremendous your political conflict right in
every major institution lying to us and letting us down.
And so I think, of course there is a sense
(22:41):
of jadedness. But that what I always say is, you know,
the Harvard Institute of Politics, buying you a youth poll
finds that young people are more fearful about the future
than hopeful, right, And that's really sobering, satistic to sit with.
But at the same time, that doesn't mean that gen
Z has stopped dreaming, right Like, we are absolutely still
dreaming or dreaming that much louder because we know that
it isn't just a dream out of hope. It's a
(23:02):
dream out of it's a dream out of despair, out
of desperation. In a lot of cases, we have nothing
to do with that fear other than hopefully channel it
into action such that we understand that the stakes are
so high, and I think that there is a sense
of feeling really let down by those before us. That
means that we're skeptical of a lot of authority, But
(23:22):
there also really is a hunger to learn and to
collaborate and to be in conversation. But I think in
forums that don't make us feel like we're being talked
down too, in architectures that don't make us feel like
we're irrelevant and at the margin, there are ways to
honor experience while still creating space for young, diverse voices
to be heard, right, to be celebrated, to be honored.
(23:45):
And I think those that are getting that right are
seeing a lot of success right in terms of their
businesses and in terms of their culture. But it's easier
said than done, for sure.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I love that so interesting because as I'm listening to you,
I'm thinking about my own experiences when I was at
the early days of digital and I will always point
to that as being when the power dynamic really shifted
in corporate America because it was the first time where
using your word expertise wasn't so monolithic or hierarchical and
(24:17):
Suddenly you have young people in junior roles knowing more
about something than older people in senior roles. And you know,
I'm thinking that what you're doing and what you're also
proposing needs to happen is just a much more natural
and organic way of interacting versus some of the things
I saw in corporate America. Then we're going to set
(24:39):
up like a reverse mentor program. But now I was like,
I just felt I never knew what felt wrong, It
felt contrived. For half an hour, I'll listen to you,
and then I'll go back to being your boss.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Yeah, I think that's right. One thing that I've been
thinking about a lot these days, because I have a
lot of conversations with folks of all generations in my job,
is that I think for a long time, society operated
on this really bizarre paradigm that for twenty years you learn,
for fifty years maybe you lead, and then for ten
maybe years, if you're lucky, you get to live at
(25:09):
the end. Right, And I think increasingly folks are like,
that is a bad deal, Right, That is not something
any of us want to sign up or I think
majority of us want to live and lead and learn simultaneously.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Right, do you just look at everyone order than you're
You're just like, y'all just have screwed everything up like this,
I don't know all these bad decisions. The world's on fire,
this like crazy linear way to living life like, No,
it's kind of jacked up.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
No, Look, I think certainly, folks all, I think the
beauty of youth has always been of every generation to
look at things and say, just because things have been
this way doesn't mean they to stay this way. But
to Marissa's point, because of the digital access that we
have and the specific deal political moments that we have,
we've been able to make that disruption become mainstream much
more instantaneously, right, So we're talking about it at a
much larger scale. But I think, yeah, like every kid,
(25:55):
we're looking at our parents and being like, we love you,
we honor you, we thank you for all you've done,
but my god, we can do things better, right right,
and react to do things better. And I think that's
like every young generation has felt that way. And I
think on this question specifically, which I think really ladders
up into this idea of going back to school perpetually,
I think folks really like it is such a bizarre
paradigm that we're like, oh, like learn and that's all
(26:19):
you get to be. Lead, It's all you get to be.
And then maybe you can go on be a retiree
and live if you are privileged enough and lucky enough.
And now folks are embracing a soft life of like
I get to go on the vacation while I'm working
my ass off, also be in school while I'm doing that,
and to claim a multitude and to lean into a multitude.
And I think that fulfills And I think the pandemic
(26:40):
was really instrumental in so many of us genes or
not reconsidering how we want to spend our time.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Oh especially you. I mean you you graduated college during
the pandemic in twenty one, right, I do. So when
you have that as your backdrop, bring it to maybe
you know some of our listeners, You know the folks
that are kind of hearing this and either their your
contemporaries age, or maybe they're folks that are trying to
reach folks like you. I have really tried to figure
out how do you become a lifelong learner? And all
(27:06):
the folks that I chat with, they're actually learning on
places like TikTok or YouTube, and they're really kind of
curating their own digital university, if you will, right, they're
picking and choosing subject matter experts to learn from. Is
that the way you're approaching it or the way that
you're kind of working with brands and partners, What are
you telling them on how best to learn how to
(27:27):
reach this audience.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
That's a great question. And I certainly learn a lot
from your LinkedIn Stephen, and I think that's certainly curating
your feed to be representative of the thought leaders like
you too, is essential right in today's day and age. However,
a lot of my advice is like, don't like to
the point of my being contrived, Like don't try to
be something that you're not. If you have somebody in
front of you who knows it better than you do,
(27:48):
like let them leave the thing, right. I think it's
a weird thing that in society now it's like, oh,
like become an expert and everything, like you can't be
my job. And the way that our business model is
set up is I'm the wrong cource to talk to
one things, but I'm gonna find you the right gen
zer from that community to talk to, and I'm never
going to try to speak on behalf of a community
that is not my own, right, And I think for
(28:09):
historically in marketing and business, there was a lot of
talking for, right, rather than talking to or building with.
I think like that's really what we're trying to disrupt.
But look, I've stayed in school formally and worked full
time while staying in school full time, and spent a
lot of time on TikTok simultaneously, and didn't that speaks
to what I was just saying that, Yeah, it's about
creating your own digital university. But I wouldn't undermine the
(28:29):
importance of conventional education. I wouldn't undermine the importance of
learning from professional environments and for mentors within the spaces
that you want to exist within. And so I think
learning takes a lot of different shapes, And like right now,
I just I just embarked upon like I'm a USA
Obama leader for the next six months, and it's like
(28:50):
basically like a class it's a leadership program, right, and
that is me sort of like I've been missing school, right,
and now I can be in a sort of classroom
issh environment through different forum now because just being on
my email and zoom all day doesn't necessarily always feel
especially when I'm also am the person in power, right,
(29:12):
I make the decision right, Like being in a classroom
setting where I think what's really important aout custom settings
is you're all the same, You're at the same level, right, Like,
there's this at least an illusion of equality that I
think actually inspires a lot of discourse and I think
is really fruitful. People asking a lot about why I
stayed in school. It's because I had a lot left
to learn, and I still do.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
So what would you say, in the spirit of learning, teaching, learning,
the virtuous circle that we talked about last time, what's
been the most surprising thing about this generation? Again not
wanting to stereotype per se, but what's the most surprising
thing you find yourself having to provide insight on as
(29:51):
you talk to companies, marketers, employers, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
I think that marketers are really taking aback by gen
Z's anger, and I think are really confused by gen
Z's contradiction and juxtaphysician. Why are you saying this but
buying this? Like, why are you saying this but doing this? Right?
To a lot of our job is a little translate
between the contradiction that exists right within gen Z. But
when you started asking question, I actually though you're gonna
(30:17):
ask a different question, what is what surprises me about
the Outhlare generations? Addiction and juxtaphysician? Why are you saying
this but buying this? Like? Why are you saying this
but doing this? Right? And so a lot of our
job is a little translate between the contradiction that exists
right within gen Z. But when you started asking question,
actually thought you're gona ask a different question, what is
what surprises me about the Outhclare generation? On this point,
(30:40):
around that Stephen said around like your own digital university,
and on the earlier point, around the changing expectations of managers.
I've been pushing a lot of my clients to be
on social media. Right. It's a weird thing that a
lot of executives like would prefer to put a white
screen up with text on it as their pr statement,
then show up as their real selves. And a lot
(31:01):
of what gen Z's demanding is we want to believe you,
We want to create human relationships and believe you, and
you're giving me a you know, some statement that a
PR firm wrote for you that doesn't reflect anyone's actual voice.
And so we're gonna be skeptical because those PR firmed
answers have always been bullshit, frankly right, and like gen
Z knows that. And so oftentimes when a brand comes
to me is how do we approach this, I'm like,
get on the camera yourself, show your face. People want
(31:24):
to pull the curtain back, right, gen Z's asking to
cut the bs, to push through the noise. And it's
really interesting to me how many executives are like, no,
that's not my place, Like my place is to serve
the brand, right and like to put the brand forward,
not my own face forward. And I'm like, but you
are the brand.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
So if someone is not on video, Like if you
find folks that are not on TikTok or not doing
video and you actually don't see them, does that make
you more skeptical? Like does that make you feel like
they're hiding something?
Speaker 3 (31:52):
It's like, where's OZ, show me OZ, pull back the
curtain right, Like, I think it's a really weird paradigm
that we've so taken the human out of the business.
And I think a lot of GenZ that's for is like no,
Like I want to ask somebody a question and I
want to know who it is. I want to what
they look like, I want to know what they sound like.
And so many of these brands, as you guys know,
so many cmos are some of the most incredibly dynamic,
(32:13):
charismatic kind people, and they're paying influencers millions of dollars
a year to speak for them. And I'm like, Bessie,
I want to see more of you, right, I want
to see more of you.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Like you are exalidated by this point of view because
I kind of do put it out there instinctively, always have,
but you know, it wasn't always the corporately validated approach.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
But I think it's really important we have an incentive
structure internally to encourage our employees to post more on
social media. Well, I want my employees to be thought leaders.
I want them to show up.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
But yeah, you realize, and this is such an interesting
power dynamic because what you know, the younger generation is
asking for in terms of authenticity and credibility, it's actually
the opposite dynamic in the C suite because the more
CMO is actually posting and being visible and actually doing
tiktoks their CEO or their CFO or their other you know,
(33:07):
industry peers are like, why are they doing that? Yeah? Yeah,
And so it really is a conflict from a couple of.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Different vectors and pressure. But I'm not necessarily suggesting cmos
only post on their own channel, which is what historically
is happening. Right now, I'm saying, be the influencer on
the brand channel. Yeah, right, Like there is no better
brand ambassador than the people who are building the brand.
And you've seen that with a lot of startup disruptors.
It's the founder telling their story right right, crapping a narrative,
and I think we need to see that more in
(33:33):
a lot of corporate.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
That's a shift. That's that's that's such a shift. It's
so hard. But look, this is such an important point.
You know, we're wrapping up and so we're gonna do
something new at Brand New, which is we're going to
do our Lightning Round because I feel like we want
to hear from you. So in sixty seconds or less,
I'll ask the questions, will ask a question, and the
person that pops in your mind, my friend, Okay.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
So I will ask what is your favorite movie pitch Perfect?
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Favorite place to shop or places to shop.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Wasteland It's a thrift store on Melrose, right next to
two House La.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Okay, I'm a jet.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Favorite streamer, favorite streamer.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
Oh that's a really hard one. Okay, Well, I stand
with the strike, so I'm not gonna answer that one.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Okay, we're social media platform.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Well, I think I have to say Snaptat because they
were the title sponsor of econ quarters.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
All right, last one, favorite emerging brands.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
It's a really good question. I mean, I love what
comes to mind is based on the question that which
just asks poppy. I love the product, I love the
founder story. I think it's a great I think the
branding is so strong for those unfamiliar. It's a gut
health soda, low calorie, really like fruity flavor, is bright
imagery founder lad and I think it's a really really
smart company.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
This was so much fun. Thank you for coming and
chatting with us.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Thank you for having me. Thanks so much, man, so
grateful to be a community with you both doing great work.
Like Wise, like Wise, my friends.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Keep inspiring us with what first twenty year old twenty
one year old now twenty four year old CEO can
to change the world. I mean, that's why you're here,
and that's why we wanted to have you.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Thank you, thank you. And likewise, I learned so much
from YouTube.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Keep calling people out.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
I learned so much from YouTube and really grateful to
be a community with you. Bill, So thank you so
much for having me.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Well, thank you, and you know what. In that spirit,
we'll be right back with the segment we always like
to end with what's on your minds. We're back and
it's time for what's on your mind. We love hearing
from you, so don't forget to let us know what
you're wondering about. You can send a question to us
(35:36):
at our email ideas at Brandashnew dot com, or dm
us on any of our social channels. And Steven, what
do we got this week?
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Well, this week we have a question from Veronica and
I'll summarize the question. What are your thoughts suggestions for
someone that has over ten years of ad sales experience
at roles at different companies and is looking to get
into a different role, maybe in a different segment at
the market. I think it's really a career advice question
(36:04):
around love that Yeah, I've been in a certain type
of role for a period of time and I want
to shift roles. So you can take this in a
lot of different ways. But worse, how do you think
about this?
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Well?
Speaker 1 (36:15):
I think I want to read the question next time
so I can make you answer first. That's my first conclusion. Look,
I think this is a really really meaningful question, both
in its specific nature but also as you broaden it
up to how do you make a change when you're
going down a path? And I think it really comes
down to something that we marketers are especially good at,
which is positioning. But this time it's about positioning yourself.
(36:37):
When you think about specifically the experience you've garnered in
AD sales, you are someone who is understanding of product
and understanding an audience and figuring out how to convince.
To me, that's the definition of a good marketer. So
there's lots of different ways to segue, I'll tell you,
and here's the moment of honesty. The hardest part will
(37:00):
be not necessarily your ability to see the path, but
to get other employers to be imaginative, because I think
the hardest thing is when you get hiring managers who
are just so literal. And let me tell you something.
It happens at all levels in your career. It's happened
to me more recently than you'd think in terms of well,
you don't check this box because you don't have this experience.
I'm like, but don't you want someone who's accomplished all
(37:22):
this and knows how to think? So my advice is
you be imaginative and you connect the dots of how
you can be right for something and help people see it.
Don't expect them to be imaginative for you. And then
be resilient because our careers are really an exercise in resilience.
I have to remind myself of that all the time,
(37:44):
my teams of that all the time. And so don't
take a rejection or a series of rejections as a
sign that making this transition is impossible. It just takes perseverance, tenacity,
networking and being open to different ways that you might
think of where you could go next, and let the
tide carry you a little bit while you also make
(38:05):
sure that you're putting yourself in the right waves, so
to speak. To extend the metaphor, and I wish you
a ton of luck. What would you add to that.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
This is a hard question to answer because it's also
a very personal question. It stems from understanding where do
you want to be, and it comes back to your purpose.
I always want to ground any feedback that I give
to any listener, anyone that's early in their career or
trying to make a transition in their career. You need
to understand what you love, what does the world need,
(38:35):
what are you good at, and what you can get
paid for. And again, the intersection of those four vectors
is your purpose or your achy guy. And I would say,
if you are in ad sales, take away the label
right at the end of the day, the ad sales
function is comprised of work different things, different tasks, and
that absolutely involves selling, that involves marketing, that involves finance,
(38:57):
that involves you know, understanding product. So I would kind
of break down the skills and I would really say,
what is it that you really enjoy doing and then
repackage those skills into whatever the function is going to
be at a different company, because you almost need to
match those skills and figure out what is going to
be transferable and is it going to be on the
(39:18):
buy side or on the sales side. Is it going
to be you know, kind of in a service a
business like like an agency, or is it going to
be at a brand or somewhere else in the ecosystem
another media company, and understanding that ad sales, sales and
marketing is so incredibly important in every industry, but you
could apply in lots of different ways. So hopefully you
could really understand as a systems based thinker, you want
(39:42):
to map out the ecosystem, figure out where you want
to be in that ecosystem, identify the companies that you
think that you actually have a good value match, and
then try to figure out the skills into a job.
And the reality is it's going to be hard for
you to kind of go from an ad sales role
into something that's non ad sales. Your point, Marissa, it
requires resilience. It is possible. I've done it many times
(40:04):
in my career and it's not easy, but absolutely it's
how do you persevere and how do you let the
world know that you could do that role.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
It's skills versus title, So think about what your talents
are and that's how you're going to get yourself there.
So I hope that helps I hope it helps more
than just to you, Veronica, and that's it for this time.
If you like this content, please don't forget to follow
us at the Brand New Podcast wherever you listen to
your podcast so you never miss an episode. That follow
(40:31):
really helps us a lot. Don't forget to follow us
on the socials LinkedIn Instagram, Facebook, threads, wherever you prefer,
and we want to hear from you, so let us
know what you're wondering about. Send us questions like the
one we just answered again. Our email is ideas at
brandashnew dot com and.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Do as a favor, please leave us the rating that's
so important it feeds the algorithm. Comment on this Apple
podcast or wherever you listening to podcasts, tell us how
much you like the content and certainly help us understand
what is going to be important for next pod. Send
us your questions and with that, join us next time
for what's brand new.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
See you next time,
Hi, Aaron. Welcome to Brand New from the iHeart Podcast
Network and Brand New Labs. I'm Marissa Thalberg and I'm.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Steven Wulf DNA and how are you, Marissa?
Speaker 1 (00:16):
I am very well. How are you? What's going on?
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Well, other than a tropical storm coming to LA. I mean,
it's just a little bit of rain, but I think
will be okay, I hope.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
So we East Coasters are kind of used to it
New York are here in LA.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
I always feel, you know, everyone is a little bit
overreacting to the weather, but they're not prepared for it usually,
so we'll take it over a brain of salt.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
So what happens, I know when there's bad weather in
the East Coast as everyone goes to the movies, or
at least they used to post COVID, and I think
it's happening again. Is that happening in La? Is everyone
of the movies this weekend?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yes, Barbie has. Certainly it's still running its course. Not
as many folks wearing pink to the movie theaters. But
we were blue yesterday because I took my family to
go see Blue Beetle. Are you familiar with Blue Beetle?
MERSA that's a pause.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
I want to be cool, but I'm going to be honest.
I always choose honesty. No, Okay, I've heard of it,
but I don't know a lot about it, so tell me.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
I'm a big comic book nerd judge me. It'll be
okay if you don't know Blue Beetle, because that is
kind of like a second or maybe even third tier
DC character. But it was actually a really big deal
because this is the first Latino led superhero movie with
this incredible big deal. It's a huge I mean, like
(01:35):
all like Latino you know, leading cast, and the star
of it is this guy Sholo Marty Duenia, who some
folks may have seen him in Cobra Kai, which was
a big hit you know, started on YouTube and is
now on Netflix. But Solo, you know, it's it's abolled
xol o. You know, he's twenty two years old. You know.
I was with him a couple of months ago at
(01:56):
the Red Bull F one tournament and he is just
going to blow up. I think. I think he's going
to be a huge, huge star. And the movie was
really entertaining and fun. George Lopez was in it and
he had a big role Susan Sarandon played the villain.
But it was very well done. The first time to
really see a Latino superhero in action.
Speaker 1 (02:14):
I mean that must have been pretty meaningful for your kids.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
It was huge.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Did they have a really big reaction to that?
Speaker 2 (02:21):
My kids loved. I mean, Siana's still five, so a
little bit under the radar in terms of really understanding
everything going on. But my son, he's eight, and he
is like smack in the middle of this. He loves
superhero movies and it was very meaningful to see a
Latino on the screen. You know, it's very well done,
culture authentic, a lot of great references. I mean they
were references to music and novelas and all this kind
(02:42):
of stuff. So it was a very proud moment. And
I know a lot of the folks that were involved
in either management, writing, directing, and so it's just an
incredible effort. So if you haven't seen it, please go
see Blue Beetle. It's a lot of fun.
Speaker 1 (02:54):
That sounds great. I mean, this is why we say
things like representation matters.
Speaker 3 (02:58):
It's not tride, absolutely matters.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Does matter?
Speaker 2 (03:00):
What about you? What's new with you?
Speaker 1 (03:02):
I'll tell you what we just did which is funny
when you reflect on the journey, the journey that we
have and our own identities. We don't call them brands
per se, but I mean if we had a brand
as a couple and as a family, we were a
brand New York, New York City. We're raising our kids.
I mean they were in public school on the Upper
West Side. The idea of the whole Friday night lights,
(03:23):
I mean that existed on TV, not in my reality.
And then our and then our girls went to art school.
Speaker 2 (03:30):
American football is in New York City.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
I'm talking American football. I know you prefer the soccer
version of football. The rest of the world thinks of football. Yes,
And then we moved to California. Our girls are still
in performing art school. But now here we are in
Charlotte with our younger daughter, who, in the spirit of
talking back to school, is now back to school as
a high school senior. I could pinch me. I can't
believe it. It's so crazy, but we wound up going
(03:53):
to see her school play in this championship Wow football
game at Bank of America Stadium, which is where the
Panthers play the professional football team plays. Because they're there.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Oh, it's big.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
I mean, it's like really crazy to watch your high
school football team and I thought, wow, how our lives
have changed. I mean, it was amazing, it was fun.
They won, by the way, go Providence Day.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
But it makes you just think about how we as
people just like brands. And this is not a false parallel.
I think about this all the time. They evolve, you know,
they change. I never thought our identity as a family
would be anything other than that. And it's just interesting
how life has taken us down this different path and
(04:34):
in many ways broadened us and enriched us. And so yeah,
never expected that, never expected to be cheering our high
school football team in a professional football stadium. But that's
what makes it all interesting, I guess.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
But it's so interesting that you talk about yourself as
a brand and the things that brand you. You know,
I'm a born and raised New Yorker as well, and
I always thought that that would be raising my kids
in New York, right, And for me, it's you know,
still kind of hard to wrap my head around that
I live in LA. Both my kids were born in California,
and they're having this very different experience from the experience
(05:08):
I had growing up. It's so important for me for
the kids to get to New York, to ride the
subway to B Street, smart like all those kind of things.
I'm trying to figure out how they learn that. But
it kind of really comes back to this idea of
back to school that we had in our last pod,
and this idea of always lifelong learning. For sure, I
feel like this is almost going to be a little
bit of a back to school part two, and how
(05:30):
do we really stay on top of trends and things
that are going to be really important to learn, especially
around some of the things that either talking about Solo
and Blue Beetle or your daughter really around gen Z.
So I feel like that's kind of the hot topic
that we should get into for this pod.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I love it. Let's go there because I think the
thread from what we were just talking about too is
the idea that you learn when you're most outside of
your comfort zone too. And so for those of us
who aren't gen Z but understand the importance of getting
them on some fundamental levels as marketers, as people in media,
(06:05):
in tech and all the different fields we talk about,
or simply as employers, which is what we are now
to this rising generation. It's interesting because they you know,
each generation has some different qualities, and this generation is
coming out of COVID, out of all sorts of different challenges,
(06:25):
our climate situation, there's a lot of complexity, and of
course the true digitally native generation more than anything else.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
Absolutely well, just to ground kind of our listeners. So
gen Z these are the folks that came after millennials,
kids that are born between nineteen ninety seven and twenty twelve,
And believe it or not, gen Z now makes up
one out of every five Americans and it's about plus
or minus you know, seventy million, So it's obviously a huge,
(06:55):
huge demographic and it's rising. And to your point, I
feel like they're really coming to their own coming out
of COVID and all these really traumatic experiences that they
have as their upbringing, and so I feel like they have,
you know, kind of these really different emotions. There's a
lot of anger, there's a lot of frustration. They questioned authority.
(07:16):
But you know, you certainly see it not just as
a mom, but also as an executive in the C suite.
So I mean, how are you kind of approaching learning
about gen Z and just really dealing with this very
different demographic.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
Well, I feel a special connection and maybe responsibility this generation.
First of all, I am proudly the mother of gen
z Ers, and I hope not in the remote way
that previous generations had with their you know, their offspring,
but in a more connected way. It's really important to me.
But also as someone and we've talked about this before
(07:49):
that really ushered in the social media revolution to brands
and proselytized it and have always been a really enthusiastic adopter.
This is the first generation really reared on it. And
when we talk about where you learn from, whether it's
learning from LinkedIn or Instagram or certainly TikTok and the
connections I love, and I think this generation loves all
(08:11):
those qualities of social media. But we also now conclusively
know there's a real dark side in this generation's mental
health has been really impacted and how that now shapes
them coming into their adulthood, coming into positions of authority
and economic power. We don't really know. This is an
crazy social experiment we've unleashed on ourselves. And so I'm
(08:36):
not going to propose that I have the answers, except
to say that I think it is going to require
a certain amount of recognition that we've changed the game profoundly,
and how it plays out is something we're going to
have to figure out collectively in terms of different needs
a desire I think for different levels of trust, authenticity, confidence,
(08:56):
self confidence, what it means to be empowered in the workforce.
I think the rules have changed because of this, and
we're myopic if we think we could just superimpose all
the ways in which work and consumerism, all that has
applied in the past and just think, oh, it's just
going to be a few trends that change. I think
(09:17):
it's really different. And that's the reason why.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Yeah, I could not agree with you more. But let's,
you know, kind of debate a little bit of understanding
gen Z from a couple of different vectors, because there
is the way that gen Z wants to really represent
and kind of have their authentic voice, and they expect
a lot from leaders in the C suite today, And
(09:42):
at the same time, I feel like leaders in the
C suite when they try to connect in authentic ways
with gen Z, we're going to kind of get hit
from the other end, where people that are our peers
in the C suite other executives, They're going to be like,
what are you doing? Like why are you on TikTok?
Or why are you trying to look cool? Or why
are you you know, on video. It's It's very interesting
because I think executives are going to have to learn
(10:02):
how to navigate and have one foot in both worlds
because the demands are going to be different from a
CEO that you know, They're probably not going to understand
what you are doing as a marketer to connect with
this audience, and then the gen Z audience is really
going to demand that you show up with your authentic self.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
I don't really know the answer to that one, Stephen,
So we can debate it, but the reality is I
feel really personally conflicted about that too. I feel conflicted
about it well because I'm an executive that feels the
pressure of the decorum of traditional corporate America, which I
actually do have a tremendous amount of respect for. And
(10:38):
I also feel like I have really good personal instincts
about what it is to connect and to live my
life in a more publicly authentic way through social media,
and that is something that came to me with age.
Speaker 2 (10:50):
So you're a gen z er at heart.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Maybe maybe, but you know, it's very interesting because not
everyone has that philosophy. And then it's like, which way
am I going to be judged? Am I going to
be judged from the top, from the bottom, right, left? Negatively? Positively.
It's a lot of pressure, and the more visible your
professional role is, the more conflicted you feel about wanting
(11:12):
to make good choices and wanting to satisfy all constituents,
if you will, but at the same time having the
good instincts to trust yourself and I think to be
authentic is genuinely are generally a good decision.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
It's going to be really hard for traditional hierarchical companies, infrastructures,
organizations to truly understand how to connect with this audience
in an authentic way. I think it's something that we
really need to learn. I think there's so many different
dimensions to gen Z not just that they're digital natives,
not just that one in five Americans today and they
really have this entrepreneurial spirit. They are also almost fifty
(11:50):
percent diverse, and so I think you now have a
generation that grew up without seeing themselves and they want
to have a voice going to places where they can
actually express that voice. And they're also looking for leaders
that are going to listen to them, not talk down
to them or talk at them, but really talk with them.
And I feel like that's hard for a lot of
(12:11):
companies or a lot of brands.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Well, but I somewhat disagree with you on the fact
that they haven't seen themselves that you arguably this because
of digital and social media. This is the generation that's
had more accessibility to seeing themselves versus if you lived
in a small town that was really homogeneous, you truly
never had a chance to see people like yourself, if
you are different or unlike yourself, if everyone was the same.
(12:34):
So that again the good side and the bad side.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Right, Look, they're pockets, pockets and social media. But again
we just reopened the pod talk about Blue Beetle.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
This is the first which I didn't know about, so
very go.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
First ever superhero movie with a Latino leads. Yeah, and
Latinos are twenty percent of the US population today, going
to over a third in the next call it ten
to fifteen years, So we still have a lot of
work to do, and so there are a lot of
stereotypes and tropes and people are finding voice where they've
never really had it, and so I feel like that
(13:09):
is something where the need to kind of question authority,
question power, question the way things are done. Question back
to work, I mean just the remote work, just all
these things are being questioned. The spirit of questioning everything
and not seeing themselves. You also see this incredible rise
in entrepreneurships.
Speaker 1 (13:26):
Well, maybe this is a nice segue to someone that
we wanted to bring on to give us a fresh
voice on this topic because he's not only very much
of Generation Z himself, but he's managed to make himself
a CEO at age twenty four, so he can speak
from all different perspectives. Definitely a fresh voice, and when
we're back, you're going to get to hear from him.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
And we're back, and it's time for our very special guest,
a brand new POV on the pod. Welcome, Zi David.
Speaker 3 (14:00):
Thank you so much for having me. Steven. I'm so
thrilled to be here chat with both of you. I'm
such a fan of both of yours and your leadership,
and so grateful to call you both friends, and I'm
just excited to have this chat today.
Speaker 1 (14:10):
We're excited too.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
We're thrilled, and so Ziad you are a twenty four
year old social entrepreneur who co founded your own consulting firm,
jew Have Consulting. Yeah, and you have this interesting focus
on gen Z. I mean, Marssa, do people care about
gen Z these days?
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Not at all, end of interview, just kidding, of course
they do. And I think what's so interesting to think about.
I mean, as much as it's so hard to stereotype
a generation, none of us want to be stereotyped. There
are these really significant differences across the years, across the decades,
and you've got this whole group of emerging adults or
(14:48):
true bona fide adults who are coming out of school,
out of school and expressing their power as consumers but
also as employees. And I think that's a really interesting
way for us to think about this.
Speaker 3 (15:01):
Or in my case as an employer, that's right.
Speaker 1 (15:03):
I guess you are and twenty four years old and
you've already been at this for a while. So I
think what's just interesting in the theme of our second
take back to school from a sense of always learning,
as we wanted to make this just a great learning
conversation about what is on the minds of gen z today.
And I know that sounds trite. We won't make it trite. Really,
(15:24):
what does it take for a marketer, a business person,
anyone who's starting to recognize this is a whole different
generation with a different set of beliefs, values, behaviors, and
you're living it as one but also as a true
leader of one every day. What should we know?
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Look, I obviously have a lot to say on this topic.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, and I'm.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Still wrestling with you calling you a bona fide adult.
I think the most important place to start this conversation
in terms of like lifelong learning right is to interrogate,
like when do we learn right and where do we
best learn right as marketers, as people, as students? And
what I ask my clients often and folks from other
(16:04):
generations that I talk to, is when is the last
time you talk to a gen Zer that wasn't your
kid or that wasn't your employee? And the answer is
very often not at all. Never. And so what that
means is that most people are actually never talking to
gen zers when they don't occupy all the position of power.
And how much can you actually learn when fundamentally you
(16:26):
hold all the power and the relationship. And I think
that what we're really trying to rethink as we think
about gen Z having this voice pushing on the future
of work, pushing on the future of business, pushing on
the future of social impact, whatever it might be, is
I want for folks to have conversations with gen Zers
as equals, right, because I think that's when we learn
when we have the full ability to challenge each other, right.
(16:47):
And Like, why I'm so grateful to like being in
conversation with you all and like, you know, have rubbing
shoulders with you and your friends at conferences is it
is very rare that someone my age is in those
rooms and spaces. And the fact that you guys have
embraced me as a friend right as a call league,
means a lot to me. But most of my peers
can't relate to that experience.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
But that might be a really just great insight to
start with. Because gen Z say that they want to
be treated as equals. That is a fundamental shift in
a power dynamic. Yeah, when I started my career, it
was very hierarchical. It's like the boss knows everything. You're
at the bottom. But I take it that is not
the mindset of gen Z consumers today.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
That's one hundred percent right. And look, it's something that
I see both sides of. On one hand, I am
like the fifteen year old who got up on stages
and so you're gonna listen to us now, INT's top
of the table. As I am a twenty four year
old CEO who's I'm the man now, right, and my
employees are asking me to be the change.
Speaker 2 (17:38):
You're the man, You're the man.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
I don't know about that, but no, I'm like the
man in like the preporative sense. I see that tension, right,
because sometimes I'm just like, please just listen to me.
And I have employees, and I understand where that tension
comes from. But I do think by and large, like,
of course marketers want to understand gen Z. However do
they want to understand their employees. It really should start
at home. It should always start at home. That's where
(18:01):
learning starts. And so there's this sense of like, oh,
of course I want to reach gen Z. I want
to understand gen Z. But then not even necessarily a
willingness to do that with the gen Z is right
in front of them, right, Because if you can't understand
the basic needs of your employees, how can you understand
the most complex needs of your consumer, who are abstract
and far away from you. And so what I always
say is that I think that like the most important
(18:21):
thing that we can do is treat every conversation as valid,
as righteous, right, whether or not we agree. I think
that oftentimes it is the position of the typical institutions
of power to dismiss, to be like gen Z doesn't
what they're talking about. It's naive, it doesn't matter. And
so I think creating space where you have the emotionally
laborious conversation, even if it annoys you, even if you disagree,
(18:43):
because you treated as righteous, you're treated as valid with
your employee and with your consumer, and you realize how
much you don't know right and hopefully find some sense
of common ground. But I think so often that conversation
is entirely glossed over because folks are avoiding the uncomfortable
and are operating based on archaic hierarchy that is no
longer indicative of where society is today and is increasingly
(19:05):
the reason why a lot of brands feel stagnant and archaic,
because that's how their companies are operating.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Do you think we're in a bit of an in
between land? And I suppose I'm leading the witness in
the way I'm framing the question because I kind of
do with regards to the traditional archetypes of leadership, very hierarchical,
like Steven said, But then this idea that it should
be I don't know, more democratized, where people with a
(19:32):
lot less experience are coming in and have an equal
point of view. Are we in this in between place?
And where do you see that going? Because there should
be some value in long term experience.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
Experience matters, of course.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
But at the same time, I wonder if the message
hasn't really gotten all the way through to traditional boardrooms,
like talking the talk versus walking the walk, about what
it means to change a corporate culture, what it means
to really embrace this emerging generation is they want to
be And I mean, look at the whole thing about
back to work, that's not really about what listening to
your younger constituents.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
And I think absolutely weren't in between, right, I think
to the point I just made, I think most managers
did not sign up to be managers with the assumption
that they would have to perform as much emotional labor
as gen Z is now demanding of them m hm.
And so there is a lot of folks the top
were like, that's not my job, I'm not doing that,
And then you have a lot of folks under them
who are like doing all of that emotional labor but
haven't yet gotten to the real seat of power. So
(20:28):
I think there is an in between moment and sort
of that evolution of corporate culture and evolution of where
a society is. But I also think I was like
at Zicon Actually, one of the executives during this segment
where executives challenge gen Z's thinking, was like, but gegen
Z even want to learn anymore?
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (20:44):
I think that's sort of like a provocative question to
ask given the topic that we're talking about today, because
it feels like to them that gen Z thinks there
really know everything, like the gen Z even want to learn.
And the way that I sort of responded was, I
think absolutely gen Z wants to learn, but I think
we're very skeptical of a lot of things that we've
been taught, and a lot of the teachers that exist
(21:05):
currently are fundamentally gaslighting us, and so it's about having
the right teachers that we trust, that are candid with
us such that learning feels fruitful. And I think gen
Z is operating a lot of conversations with the very
righteous skepticism because historically, corporate America, historically a lot of
institutions of power have intentionally misled or mistreated diverse, marginalized communities.
(21:27):
And so a lot of gen zs are entering the
conversation with a sense of skepticism that I think is justified.
Are hungry to learn, but want to learn from people
that we believe are being honest with us.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
But you're hitting on semi which is so powerful, which
is you are questioning authority. You're starting from a place
where when someone opens their mouth, whether it's individual, whether
it's a leader at a company, whether it's a brand
marketing something, you're not just assuming that as truth correct.
And so the fact that you get to question everything
(21:59):
is probably incredible way disheartening for a lot of folks,
frustrating for many folks. And also it's like, why are
you guys questioning everything that's right? Does that factor into
just the way that you have grown up digital first?
You know the way you've been consuming media, would you
say that your peers, your generation are jaded one thousand?
Speaker 3 (22:20):
First, look, gen Z's not a monolith, and to the
point around stereotyping, right of course, but by and large, unquestionuly.
I mean there's a sense of nihilism, right like, the
world is already on fire, literally and metaphorically. Our lifetimes
have been bookmarked by tremendous your political conflict right in
every major institution lying to us and letting us down.
And so I think, of course there is a sense
(22:41):
of jadedness. But that what I always say is, you know,
the Harvard Institute of Politics, buying you a youth poll
finds that young people are more fearful about the future
than hopeful, right, And that's really sobering, satistic to sit with.
But at the same time, that doesn't mean that gen
Z has stopped dreaming, right Like, we are absolutely still
dreaming or dreaming that much louder because we know that
it isn't just a dream out of hope. It's a
(23:02):
dream out of it's a dream out of despair, out
of desperation. In a lot of cases, we have nothing
to do with that fear other than hopefully channel it
into action such that we understand that the stakes are
so high, and I think that there is a sense
of feeling really let down by those before us. That
means that we're skeptical of a lot of authority, But
(23:22):
there also really is a hunger to learn and to
collaborate and to be in conversation. But I think in
forums that don't make us feel like we're being talked
down too, in architectures that don't make us feel like
we're irrelevant and at the margin, there are ways to
honor experience while still creating space for young, diverse voices
to be heard, right, to be celebrated, to be honored.
(23:45):
And I think those that are getting that right are
seeing a lot of success right in terms of their
businesses and in terms of their culture. But it's easier
said than done, for sure.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
I love that so interesting because as I'm listening to you,
I'm thinking about my own experiences when I was at
the early days of digital and I will always point
to that as being when the power dynamic really shifted
in corporate America because it was the first time where
using your word expertise wasn't so monolithic or hierarchical and
(24:17):
Suddenly you have young people in junior roles knowing more
about something than older people in senior roles. And you know,
I'm thinking that what you're doing and what you're also
proposing needs to happen is just a much more natural
and organic way of interacting versus some of the things
I saw in corporate America. Then we're going to set
(24:39):
up like a reverse mentor program. But now I was like,
I just felt I never knew what felt wrong, It
felt contrived. For half an hour, I'll listen to you,
and then I'll go back to being your boss.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Yeah, I think that's right. One thing that I've been
thinking about a lot these days, because I have a
lot of conversations with folks of all generations in my job,
is that I think for a long time, society operated
on this really bizarre paradigm that for twenty years you learn,
for fifty years maybe you lead, and then for ten
maybe years, if you're lucky, you get to live at
(25:09):
the end. Right, And I think increasingly folks are like,
that is a bad deal, Right, That is not something
any of us want to sign up or I think
majority of us want to live and lead and learn simultaneously.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Right, do you just look at everyone order than you're
You're just like, y'all just have screwed everything up like this,
I don't know all these bad decisions. The world's on fire,
this like crazy linear way to living life like, No,
it's kind of jacked up.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
No, Look, I think certainly, folks all, I think the
beauty of youth has always been of every generation to
look at things and say, just because things have been
this way doesn't mean they to stay this way. But
to Marissa's point, because of the digital access that we
have and the specific deal political moments that we have,
we've been able to make that disruption become mainstream much
more instantaneously, right, So we're talking about it at a
much larger scale. But I think, yeah, like every kid,
(25:55):
we're looking at our parents and being like, we love you,
we honor you, we thank you for all you've done,
but my god, we can do things better, right right,
and react to do things better. And I think that's
like every young generation has felt that way. And I
think on this question specifically, which I think really ladders
up into this idea of going back to school perpetually,
I think folks really like it is such a bizarre
paradigm that we're like, oh, like learn and that's all
(26:19):
you get to be. Lead, It's all you get to be.
And then maybe you can go on be a retiree
and live if you are privileged enough and lucky enough.
And now folks are embracing a soft life of like
I get to go on the vacation while I'm working
my ass off, also be in school while I'm doing that,
and to claim a multitude and to lean into a multitude.
And I think that fulfills And I think the pandemic
(26:40):
was really instrumental in so many of us genes or
not reconsidering how we want to spend our time.
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Oh especially you. I mean you you graduated college during
the pandemic in twenty one, right, I do. So when
you have that as your backdrop, bring it to maybe
you know some of our listeners, You know the folks
that are kind of hearing this and either their your
contemporaries age, or maybe they're folks that are trying to
reach folks like you. I have really tried to figure
out how do you become a lifelong learner? And all
(27:06):
the folks that I chat with, they're actually learning on
places like TikTok or YouTube, and they're really kind of
curating their own digital university, if you will, right, they're
picking and choosing subject matter experts to learn from. Is
that the way you're approaching it or the way that
you're kind of working with brands and partners, What are
you telling them on how best to learn how to
(27:27):
reach this audience.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
That's a great question. And I certainly learn a lot
from your LinkedIn Stephen, and I think that's certainly curating
your feed to be representative of the thought leaders like
you too, is essential right in today's day and age. However,
a lot of my advice is like, don't like to
the point of my being contrived, Like don't try to
be something that you're not. If you have somebody in
front of you who knows it better than you do,
(27:48):
like let them leave the thing, right. I think it's
a weird thing that in society now it's like, oh,
like become an expert and everything, like you can't be
my job. And the way that our business model is
set up is I'm the wrong cource to talk to
one things, but I'm gonna find you the right gen
zer from that community to talk to, and I'm never
going to try to speak on behalf of a community
that is not my own, right, And I think for
(28:09):
historically in marketing and business, there was a lot of
talking for, right, rather than talking to or building with.
I think like that's really what we're trying to disrupt.
But look, I've stayed in school formally and worked full
time while staying in school full time, and spent a
lot of time on TikTok simultaneously, and didn't that speaks
to what I was just saying that, Yeah, it's about
creating your own digital university. But I wouldn't undermine the
(28:29):
importance of conventional education. I wouldn't undermine the importance of
learning from professional environments and for mentors within the spaces
that you want to exist within. And so I think
learning takes a lot of different shapes, And like right now,
I just I just embarked upon like I'm a USA
Obama leader for the next six months, and it's like
(28:50):
basically like a class it's a leadership program, right, and
that is me sort of like I've been missing school, right,
and now I can be in a sort of classroom
issh environment through different forum now because just being on
my email and zoom all day doesn't necessarily always feel
especially when I'm also am the person in power, right,
(29:12):
I make the decision right, Like being in a classroom
setting where I think what's really important aout custom settings
is you're all the same, You're at the same level, right, Like,
there's this at least an illusion of equality that I
think actually inspires a lot of discourse and I think
is really fruitful. People asking a lot about why I
stayed in school. It's because I had a lot left
to learn, and I still do.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
So what would you say, in the spirit of learning, teaching, learning,
the virtuous circle that we talked about last time, what's
been the most surprising thing about this generation? Again not
wanting to stereotype per se, but what's the most surprising
thing you find yourself having to provide insight on as
(29:51):
you talk to companies, marketers, employers, et cetera.
Speaker 3 (29:56):
I think that marketers are really taking aback by gen
Z's anger, and I think are really confused by gen
Z's contradiction and juxtaphysician. Why are you saying this but
buying this? Like, why are you saying this but doing this? Right?
To a lot of our job is a little translate
between the contradiction that exists right within gen Z. But
when you started asking question, I actually though you're gonna
(30:17):
ask a different question, what is what surprises me about
the Outhlare generations? Addiction and juxtaphysician? Why are you saying
this but buying this? Like? Why are you saying this
but doing this? Right? And so a lot of our
job is a little translate between the contradiction that exists
right within gen Z. But when you started asking question,
actually thought you're gona ask a different question, what is
what surprises me about the Outhclare generation? On this point,
(30:40):
around that Stephen said around like your own digital university,
and on the earlier point, around the changing expectations of managers.
I've been pushing a lot of my clients to be
on social media. Right. It's a weird thing that a
lot of executives like would prefer to put a white
screen up with text on it as their pr statement,
then show up as their real selves. And a lot
(31:01):
of what gen Z's demanding is we want to believe you,
We want to create human relationships and believe you, and
you're giving me a you know, some statement that a
PR firm wrote for you that doesn't reflect anyone's actual voice.
And so we're gonna be skeptical because those PR firmed
answers have always been bullshit, frankly right, and like gen
Z knows that. And so oftentimes when a brand comes
to me is how do we approach this, I'm like,
get on the camera yourself, show your face. People want
(31:24):
to pull the curtain back, right, gen Z's asking to
cut the bs, to push through the noise. And it's
really interesting to me how many executives are like, no,
that's not my place, Like my place is to serve
the brand, right and like to put the brand forward,
not my own face forward. And I'm like, but you
are the brand.
Speaker 2 (31:41):
So if someone is not on video, Like if you
find folks that are not on TikTok or not doing
video and you actually don't see them, does that make
you more skeptical? Like does that make you feel like
they're hiding something?
Speaker 3 (31:52):
It's like, where's OZ, show me OZ, pull back the
curtain right, Like, I think it's a really weird paradigm
that we've so taken the human out of the business.
And I think a lot of GenZ that's for is like no,
Like I want to ask somebody a question and I
want to know who it is. I want to what
they look like, I want to know what they sound like.
And so many of these brands, as you guys know,
so many cmos are some of the most incredibly dynamic,
(32:13):
charismatic kind people, and they're paying influencers millions of dollars
a year to speak for them. And I'm like, Bessie,
I want to see more of you, right, I want
to see more of you.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
Like you are exalidated by this point of view because
I kind of do put it out there instinctively, always have,
but you know, it wasn't always the corporately validated approach.
Speaker 3 (32:35):
But I think it's really important we have an incentive
structure internally to encourage our employees to post more on
social media. Well, I want my employees to be thought leaders.
I want them to show up.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
But yeah, you realize, and this is such an interesting
power dynamic because what you know, the younger generation is
asking for in terms of authenticity and credibility, it's actually
the opposite dynamic in the C suite because the more
CMO is actually posting and being visible and actually doing
tiktoks their CEO or their CFO or their other you know,
(33:07):
industry peers are like, why are they doing that? Yeah? Yeah,
And so it really is a conflict from a couple of.
Speaker 3 (33:12):
Different vectors and pressure. But I'm not necessarily suggesting cmos
only post on their own channel, which is what historically
is happening. Right now, I'm saying, be the influencer on
the brand channel. Yeah, right, Like there is no better
brand ambassador than the people who are building the brand.
And you've seen that with a lot of startup disruptors.
It's the founder telling their story right right, crapping a narrative,
and I think we need to see that more in
(33:33):
a lot of corporate.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
That's a shift. That's that's that's such a shift. It's
so hard. But look, this is such an important point.
You know, we're wrapping up and so we're gonna do
something new at Brand New, which is we're going to
do our Lightning Round because I feel like we want
to hear from you. So in sixty seconds or less,
I'll ask the questions, will ask a question, and the
person that pops in your mind, my friend, Okay.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
Let's do it.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
So I will ask what is your favorite movie pitch Perfect?
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Favorite place to shop or places to shop.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
Wasteland It's a thrift store on Melrose, right next to
two House La.
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Okay, I'm a jet.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Favorite streamer, favorite streamer.
Speaker 3 (34:09):
Oh that's a really hard one. Okay, Well, I stand
with the strike, so I'm not gonna answer that one.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
Okay, we're social media platform.
Speaker 3 (34:16):
Well, I think I have to say Snaptat because they
were the title sponsor of econ quarters.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
All right, last one, favorite emerging brands.
Speaker 3 (34:25):
It's a really good question. I mean, I love what
comes to mind is based on the question that which
just asks poppy. I love the product, I love the
founder story. I think it's a great I think the
branding is so strong for those unfamiliar. It's a gut
health soda, low calorie, really like fruity flavor, is bright
imagery founder lad and I think it's a really really
smart company.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
This was so much fun. Thank you for coming and
chatting with us.
Speaker 3 (34:48):
Thank you for having me. Thanks so much, man, so
grateful to be a community with you both doing great work.
Like Wise, like Wise, my friends.
Speaker 1 (34:54):
Keep inspiring us with what first twenty year old twenty
one year old now twenty four year old CEO can
to change the world. I mean, that's why you're here,
and that's why we wanted to have you.
Speaker 3 (35:04):
Thank you, thank you. And likewise, I learned so much
from YouTube.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
Keep calling people out.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
I learned so much from YouTube and really grateful to
be a community with you. Bill, So thank you so
much for having me.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
Well, thank you, and you know what. In that spirit,
we'll be right back with the segment we always like
to end with what's on your minds. We're back and
it's time for what's on your mind. We love hearing
from you, so don't forget to let us know what
you're wondering about. You can send a question to us
(35:36):
at our email ideas at Brandashnew dot com, or dm
us on any of our social channels. And Steven, what
do we got this week?
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Well, this week we have a question from Veronica and
I'll summarize the question. What are your thoughts suggestions for
someone that has over ten years of ad sales experience
at roles at different companies and is looking to get
into a different role, maybe in a different segment at
the market. I think it's really a career advice question
(36:04):
around love that Yeah, I've been in a certain type
of role for a period of time and I want
to shift roles. So you can take this in a
lot of different ways. But worse, how do you think
about this?
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Well?
Speaker 1 (36:15):
I think I want to read the question next time
so I can make you answer first. That's my first conclusion. Look,
I think this is a really really meaningful question, both
in its specific nature but also as you broaden it
up to how do you make a change when you're
going down a path? And I think it really comes
down to something that we marketers are especially good at,
which is positioning. But this time it's about positioning yourself.
(36:37):
When you think about specifically the experience you've garnered in
AD sales, you are someone who is understanding of product
and understanding an audience and figuring out how to convince.
To me, that's the definition of a good marketer. So
there's lots of different ways to segue, I'll tell you,
and here's the moment of honesty. The hardest part will
(37:00):
be not necessarily your ability to see the path, but
to get other employers to be imaginative, because I think
the hardest thing is when you get hiring managers who
are just so literal. And let me tell you something.
It happens at all levels in your career. It's happened
to me more recently than you'd think in terms of well,
you don't check this box because you don't have this experience.
I'm like, but don't you want someone who's accomplished all
(37:22):
this and knows how to think? So my advice is
you be imaginative and you connect the dots of how
you can be right for something and help people see it.
Don't expect them to be imaginative for you. And then
be resilient because our careers are really an exercise in resilience.
I have to remind myself of that all the time,
(37:44):
my teams of that all the time. And so don't
take a rejection or a series of rejections as a
sign that making this transition is impossible. It just takes perseverance, tenacity,
networking and being open to different ways that you might
think of where you could go next, and let the
tide carry you a little bit while you also make
(38:05):
sure that you're putting yourself in the right waves, so
to speak. To extend the metaphor, and I wish you
a ton of luck. What would you add to that.
Speaker 2 (38:14):
This is a hard question to answer because it's also
a very personal question. It stems from understanding where do
you want to be, and it comes back to your purpose.
I always want to ground any feedback that I give
to any listener, anyone that's early in their career or
trying to make a transition in their career. You need
to understand what you love, what does the world need,
(38:35):
what are you good at, and what you can get
paid for. And again, the intersection of those four vectors
is your purpose or your achy guy. And I would say,
if you are in ad sales, take away the label
right at the end of the day, the ad sales
function is comprised of work different things, different tasks, and
that absolutely involves selling, that involves marketing, that involves finance,
(38:57):
that involves you know, understanding product. So I would kind
of break down the skills and I would really say,
what is it that you really enjoy doing and then
repackage those skills into whatever the function is going to
be at a different company, because you almost need to
match those skills and figure out what is going to
be transferable and is it going to be on the
(39:18):
buy side or on the sales side. Is it going
to be you know, kind of in a service a
business like like an agency, or is it going to
be at a brand or somewhere else in the ecosystem
another media company, and understanding that ad sales, sales and
marketing is so incredibly important in every industry, but you
could apply in lots of different ways. So hopefully you
could really understand as a systems based thinker, you want
(39:42):
to map out the ecosystem, figure out where you want
to be in that ecosystem, identify the companies that you
think that you actually have a good value match, and
then try to figure out the skills into a job.
And the reality is it's going to be hard for
you to kind of go from an ad sales role
into something that's non ad sales. Your point, Marissa, it
requires resilience. It is possible. I've done it many times
(40:04):
in my career and it's not easy, but absolutely it's
how do you persevere and how do you let the
world know that you could do that role.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
It's skills versus title, So think about what your talents
are and that's how you're going to get yourself there.
So I hope that helps I hope it helps more
than just to you, Veronica, and that's it for this time.
If you like this content, please don't forget to follow
us at the Brand New Podcast wherever you listen to
your podcast so you never miss an episode. That follow
(40:31):
really helps us a lot. Don't forget to follow us
on the socials LinkedIn Instagram, Facebook, threads, wherever you prefer,
and we want to hear from you, so let us
know what you're wondering about. Send us questions like the
one we just answered again. Our email is ideas at
brandashnew dot com and.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
Do as a favor, please leave us the rating that's
so important it feeds the algorithm. Comment on this Apple
podcast or wherever you listening to podcasts, tell us how
much you like the content and certainly help us understand
what is going to be important for next pod. Send
us your questions and with that, join us next time
for what's brand new.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
See you next time,
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