April 16, 2025 • 45 mins
After talking entrepreneurship in the last episode, Steven and Marisa are at it again with one of the most iconic and successful husband and wife entrepreneur teams: Kass and Mike Lazerow. From founding golf.com to going on to create Buddy Media, the leading social media marketing platform that sold to Salesforce for $745 million, this power pair has accrued a lifetime of stories from building their own businesses to helping others as prolific investors and advisors. How do you know when an idea is good enough to greenlight? What are some of the biggest mistakes entrepreneurs make… and what are lessons that everyone can take away? As investors, do you bet on the jockey, or the horse? Many of these lessons will be found in their forthcoming book Shoveling $h!t: A Love Story… But get a jump before its launch in June, by listening in now.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, and thanks for joining us on brand new from
the iHeart Podcast Network and brand new Labs.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm Marissa Thalberg.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
And I'm Steven wolf Patta and finally back home in
La after a week of travel. But everyone is coming
to La Marisa because it is Coachella. Have you ever been?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I have never been.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
And I've been to a lot of really great festivals
and things like iHeart Festival, but no, I have not
been to that.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
However, my daughter Hada is there right now, so.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
She has all the Coachella outfits all right, So she's
the cool ready to go. She's cool, and I just
hope she is safe and has fun, have fun, be safe,
looking like a mother.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
And to some selfies speaking about things kicking off, I
think you just kicked off something pretty big this week
as well.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
This was a big work week for me in the
sense that our team at Long Last gotcha, but not
even long Last, we actually did it so fast. I
only joined this company about six months ago, and just
the strategy, the vision for what to do with JC Penny,
which you know is now just one of a portfolio
of our brands, but the most seminal one. Yeah, so
(01:18):
we just launched a big new platform to try to
open more hearts and minds to j C.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Penny.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
And what is that platform, Marisa, what do you wear it?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Well, it's just simply yes j C Penny, which I love.
But all the creative is so good. I hope you
guys will check it out, certainly on JC Penny's social accounts,
my social accounts, go shopping. And we've just got like
a bunch of very very different, convention breaking ways of
telling the brand story and also telling a big promotional story.
(01:49):
We simultaneously launched our spring really big deals with a
first ever integration on Jimmy Kimmel Live.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
So that's a lot of fun that just happened. It's
a lot all at once, but you were cranking.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
It's exciting.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
This is the part of the job that I live for, really,
when the thinking and the creativity come together and then
you sit and nervously hope that you have at least
a moment to let it play out and start to work,
because not everything is instantaneous return. It takes time to
kind of get a legacy brand back into the center
(02:23):
of the action. But I'm optimistic about this and I'm
really proud of it. So if anyone on the team
is listening, thank you and kudos, because it really is
about the teamwork, and it always.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Is for me.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
You deserve obviously tons of kudas for launching that in
record time. But speaking of investors and you know returns,
I spent a week also in New York.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
I know we were both in New York, but didn't
see each other, which is that, well.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
We couldn't see each other. Yeah, but I was there
celebrating at the annual SEO gala, which does not stand
for a search engine optimization as a lot of people think.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
That's what I thought.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Would you told me that's where you were? I mean,
that's what SEO means to people like us.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
SEO has been absolutely transformational in my life because Sponsors
for Educational Opportunity was started in nineteen sixty three, wow,
by a gentleman named Michael Aushwitz when he was like
in his mid twenties at Goldman Sachs, and he basically
started the largest source of diverse talent onto Wall Street.
(03:26):
And in nineteen ninety four I did this summer internship
at this little firm called the Blackstone Group.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
Oh little, and it.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Is just an incredible experience that does transformed my whole
professional career. And so that's where I learned about finance
and got exposed to Wall Street and Jonathan Gray, who's
now the president of Blackstone, he was like in a
cube like next to me. He was an associate at
the time.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
Like, it's just.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Unbelievable, and you know, it was all alumni driven. I
was on the board for a decade and now the
chairman of the board is actually Henry Cravis, who is
co founder KKR. So everyone in finance comes out for
this evening. It was wonderful and it was very poignant
because we were actually honoring the founder of SEO who
actually passed a few weeks ago, Michael Ashwitz. So wherever
(04:12):
Michael is in heaven, because he was absolutely a saint.
Thank you for creating this incredible program and launching my
career as well as so many others. Because that is
about legacy, That is about giving back, and you talk
about entrepreneurship as we will in this episode, like that
is something where you really had to impact on people.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
That's really lovely, Gosh, isn't it really about the people
and the impact that they have on you and the
impact that you hope to have.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
And I think about the types.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Of guests that we always bring on, and so much
of it is drawing from our amazing networks because we're
lucky to have met or gotten to know, or even
become friends with just some truly amazing people who have
incredible stories to tell them. You know, we had so
much fun talking to Gail Becker in the last episode.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
She was awesome by the way, loved her.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
I'm so glad you loved her.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I knew you would, and honestly giving a lens that
we haven't given as much attention to in spite of,
of course, the fact that you yourself are such an entrepreneur.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So we thought it was so great to talk.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Entrepreneurialism that we should do it again this time, and
this time bring on the most iconic husband and wife
entrepreneurs that we know.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Cast and Mike Lazrow.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Cast and Mike are truly incredible entrepreneurs and investors. They
were the co founders of golf dot com and later
they founded a company called Buddy Media, which was the
leading social media marketing platform that was you know, very
early and was eventually acquired by Salesforce for almost eight
hundred million dollars, which is crazy. They've built businesses. You know,
(05:44):
they actually started their own venture firm. They really have
been doing just incredible work for so long in this space.
You know, they've now actually invested in it and over
one hundred early stage founders and startups. They served as
angel investors, you know, for companies like scope Ly, which
got by Savvy Games for five billion dollars and twenty
two they were angel investors in liquid death. I'm sure
(06:05):
everyone here knows liquid death because you can't avoid it
again water in a can. But I'm sure many investors
looked at that and they're like, what, But they were
angel investors. They've seen, you know, kind of what it
takes to be successful. And Michael's actually named to New
York's Ernst and Young Entrepreneur of the Year award, and
together they've been you know, ranked number one on Business
Insiders Silicon Alley one hundred. I mean, they just have
(06:25):
all the accolades. They're incredible people and we're really excited
to chat with them.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
And one more thing before we forget, they are now
soon to be best selling authors with a new book
that really reflects all of the hard earned lessons they've
won themselves in being entrepreneurs, and because it is so
a reflection of who they are, it is a.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
No holds barred title.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Shoveling Shit, A Love Story about the Entrepreneur's messy Path
to Success, to be released.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
On June third this summer.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
When we come back, we'll be with Cast of Mind.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Welcome Cass and Mike to brand new We're thrilled to
have you guys here.
Speaker 6 (07:12):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
Excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
This is a long time coming, and there's so much
to get into, so let's get into it. You guys
are coming out with a book. What is this book called?
Speaker 7 (07:22):
Again, It's called Shoveling Shit, A love Story about the
entrepreneur's messy path to success.
Speaker 6 (07:30):
How do you like that?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I mean, we did say it in the intro, but
I think.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Steve, because you say it so welcome. But honestly, I
mean we just got to start with that title. Why
that title?
Speaker 7 (07:42):
For every entrepreneur out there that's doing it right now,
I think they realize that it's just a constant shit storm.
You are shoveling every single day, and if you feel
like something's really going well, you better be ready because
something's about to drop. So we just wanted this book
to be super real, realistic, super relatable to entrepreneurs, and
(08:03):
really to educate anyone who's about to be an entrepreneur
so they can kind of not step in it and
do things much better than we did.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I'm sending you hearts, just virtual hearts as an entrepreneur,
a serial entrepreneur, just like you. Guys, Like that is
real talk, and I don't think people really talk about
how much shit you actually step in as an entrepreneur exactly.
Speaker 6 (08:23):
It's unreal.
Speaker 7 (08:24):
Like people are like, oh my god, it's so great.
You get to like do whatever you want and work
your own hours, and you know, you can take vacation whenever.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
It's like no, no, it never stopped.
Speaker 6 (08:34):
It doesn't happen that way. It never stops. That's the difference.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Well, let's go.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Back to a little bit of the Ardent, because what
I love is that I remember your biggest first social
media come out of here first, but the one that
I associate with is Buddy Media because I was a client.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
I mean, just an unbelievable exit from that.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
But you've done so many other things, as we've described
in the beginning too, so you know what it's like
not just to start things and have it be successful
once you've done it few times. And I know in
the book you're going to be talking about different questions
to ask that can help entrepreneurs decide whether to even
green lighten idea in the first place. Right because we
all lie stand in the shower, lie in bed, have ideas.
(09:13):
We all think we've got the next big thing. How
do you actually know when you've got one that is
worth truly going for?
Speaker 6 (09:21):
Mike, you go for it.
Speaker 5 (09:23):
Yeah. So, over thirty years of making mistakes both with
our own businesses and they haven't all worked out. We
write about some of those failures in the book and
then investing in over one hundred others, which, let me
just tell you they all haven't worked out. We've put
together basically a list that we call the go Gauge,
which for those of us who are not business school people,
(09:45):
it's a very simple way to look at an idea,
and frankly it comes from our world. You know what
you've done your whole career. Moris is basically look at
kind of markets and product market fit communications. So the
six very quickly is product what are you selling? Why
is it better that existing options? Is number two? So
(10:07):
what we call differentiation three is really a customer. But
we look at it not from total size of market.
It's a much simpler question who is going to buy
it and how many of those who's are there? Right? So,
if you're in the golf industry, it's an eighty billion
dollar industry. If you don't have a golf course, you're
not getting tea time revenue, right, So it's basically how
(10:31):
many customers are there for that? And then for something
that we've always hung our hat on, as you know,
sales and marketing, how will customers find out about your product?
And I think the world is shifting from engineers to
sales and marketing. It's much easier to build an app.
I think it's much harder to get the word out.
And then it just comes down to operations, so we
(10:54):
call delivery channel. How will you get it to the customers?
And then finally it's does the financial model past the
smell test? You know, we don't ask entrepreneurs to do
you know, thirty page PowerPoint and spreadsheet with all of
the numbers, but we say, hey, if you sell it
for a dollar.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Oh, tell me where your projections are in five years. Yeah,
it's just a really good, really bulletproof financial model in
five years exactly.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
So that's I mean, it's basically has saved us a
lot of money on the investment side. I didn't take
this advice in launching one company, but it at least
helps you realize is this something I want to start?
Because if you can't convince yourself, you're not going to
convince anyone else. And if you answer these questions, good
chance that you have something to least it's worthwhile.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
It sounds like you took the classic you know, from
a marketing lens, right Marit's so you took the four
p's and you added maybe a few other dimensions to it,
maybe just to kind of make it a little bit
more practical or substantive. But is this real at the
end of the day, really looking at the four classic
piece when you are an investor, because investors love to
(12:06):
hate on marketers, But at the end of the day,
those four p's have been around forever for a reason.
Speaker 5 (12:11):
Cas could take that out. She's an incredible marketer.
Speaker 7 (12:14):
What do you think, Yes, I think you hit it
on the head like We're not trying to recreate the
wheel here, right, but we are trying to give a
very quick and concise lens through which anyone. It doesn't
matter if you're thinking about starting a venture backed tech
company like we did, or if you're trying to open
a pizza shop or a retailer, like, does this make sense?
(12:37):
Have I thought through the most important questions? So I
think to us it was like pretty easy, like it's
a go or it's a no go if you can
get through these questions.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Okay, So take it out of paradigm mode and into
story mode, because that's what everyone wants to hear is
you've been through so much and you've.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
Had such wild successes.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
So give us like one of each, something you did
early on that was like god, that really made a
difference in our success, and maybe something that you look
back and like, oh, that was a mistake.
Speaker 7 (13:07):
I can take one that I think was a huge
pivoting and pivotal moment for Buddy Media, which was when
we shifted from our previous three models, which sucked, but
we were doing custom apps, which is, as you know,
not a scalable business at all, and we pivoted to
a SaaS company because we actually listened to customer feedback,
(13:30):
which I think is a big thing for entrepreneurs to
learn is to listen to and to get those kind
of brand advocates on board early, even if they're not
paying you, even if they're not paying you enough, because
they really help you shape what is it that the
market needs from me? Right, and so you can actually
deliver a product that gets sold. So I think that
(13:52):
was huge. And when we pivoted, it was less than
three years till we hit fifty million in annual recurring revenue.
So that was like a great thing, Mike, do you
want to talk about stuff that didn't work?
Speaker 5 (14:03):
Yeah. So the biggest one and the biggest kind of
egg I have on my face a company called shape Matrix,
which I launched with a friend that is a visual
language based on the eight basic shapes that populate the world.
And it came out of my friend Jonathan Kramer's art
And there were applications in cybersecurity and supply chain, veracity,
(14:26):
so tag and track, and we never really looked at
like who's the customer who's going to buy it? Right?
We had all these like ideas that were like smoke,
but we didn't really get down to like, who's going
to buy it, how many customers, how are we going
to distribute it right? How are we going to get
it into the market. And you know, we raised twelve
million dollars and as of now we've generated zero revenue.
(14:50):
So I take responsibility for it. I was the serial entrepreneur.
This was after you know, we sold to Salesforce. I
got very excited, as I do about a lot of ideas,
and so part of the go gage is how do
we help other entrepreneurs save their time because at the
end of the day, time is more valuable than anything else,
whether you have money or not. If you don't have money,
(15:12):
all you've got is time, right, So that's very valuable,
but even more so if you're successful.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
What I love in the vulnerability that story is it
wasn't like, well, we made these mistakes and then we
got it right and then it was just smooth sailing
from there. Because there's something very I think relatable for
most people to say, Hey, even someone who's had unbelievable
success can still fall into a trap, can still believe
(15:40):
their own enthusiasm and not validate and we all do it.
I think no matter how experienced we are, I know
I fall.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
In love with the ideas.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Sometimes it's my greatest strength, but maybe also my weakness.
So how do you value make sure you have other
people validating it. And I just think it's great that
that example is part of your story and it wasn't
at the beginning of your journey.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
Cass is the weird perfect compliments. I am very optimistic.
I love everything, I get very excited. She's a radical realist.
She's not a pessimist. She's not a pessimist, but she
will basically stop and say, okay, let's unpack this. And
(16:22):
all entrepreneurs need that, whether they're your co founder, your wife,
your husband, doesn't matter who that person is. You have
to have that person. And frankly, the more successful you get,
the more people just want to say yes to you.
So Cass is my let's just say, without Cass, i'd
probably be like homeless or definitely broke, maybe in jail.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Mike, I'm right there with you because you and I
are definitely come from the same cloth. And Cass, you
know my wife, Naria, I feel like she's very similar
to you, and we also founded a company to get there.
I effectually call her.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
Doctor no.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Absolutely love, but you know she definitely is the realist.
I think that is the right way. But you know,
I'm curious when you zoom out, because not only have
you guys been entrepreneurs and you've gone from zero to one,
you also are investors. You know, I started my career
in investing, and so there's always the classic do you
bet on the jockey or do you bet on the horse?
(17:21):
And the rational part of me could certainly understand why
you always bet on the jockey for all the reasons
that we know, but there is something where I do
feel understanding how to go to zero. For one, you
do need to have a force of nature. You do
need to have this belief and you know the reality
distortion field, you know what Steve Jobs was always known for.
(17:45):
The jockey versus the horse really is an interesting debate.
I'm curious where you guys come out now that you've
done so many investments and you've seen so many entrepreneurs.
Speaker 7 (17:54):
If I took a stab at this, I would say,
Mike bet on the horse when it came to Buddy media,
But he also knew that with the both of us
as the jockeys. It was going to be a pretty
good fit because social media was just starting, right. This
was two thousand and late two thousand and seven. The
iPhone just came out, if you remember that, and it
(18:17):
was crazy, right, and he bet on this powerful movement
that friends wanted to connect. So I think in some
ways we're seeing the same thing with AI, and we're
also seeing everybody's in AI. Right, And how do you
differentiate what's a good idea?
Speaker 3 (18:35):
I e.
Speaker 7 (18:36):
The horse versus great jockeys that are trying to figure
out their idea. So that's where I come from. Mike,
what do you have to say?
Speaker 5 (18:44):
I think that there's something missing from this question, which
we ask a lot and we talk about a lot,
which is, you know, there is no betting on either
the horse or the jockey unless you understand what race
you're running.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Oh, you just got deep, Mike.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
Yeah, well, thank you. It doesn't happen often, but yeah.
A big part of what we do is investors is
looking at do we want to be in this race?
Do we want to be in this market? Is this
the type of market that can support the type of
company that we envision here? Right? If you want to
win a million bucks in a race. You're not going
to enter tiny races. You're going to go get a
(19:21):
race horse and enter like Kentucky Derby, or at least
try to win your way in, right, And so I
don't think you could ignore the horse. You definitely can't
ignore the jockey. That's table stakes. You're not going to
send someone into the Kentucky Derby who can't drive that horse. Right.
But where a lot of entrepreneurs, and frankly, where we've
(19:41):
gotten it wrong on the investment front is really picking
markets that are just too small to build big businesses.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Yeah, it's such a powerful insight man, because that at
the end of the day, that's what most vcs don't
tell you. They'll just you know, smile, do the grin
fog and just not give you that feedback, which is,
you know what, this is too tiny because I need
to make a ten x return. They don't understand the
economics of their business.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
Yeah, they'll go to I've never seen a big business
grown in a tiny market. Now, the market may be
tiny today, but you have to have some vision that,
oh it's not going to be tiny, right, every market
starts small. Semiconductor, social media, clothing, right, go back ten
thousand years. It wasn't a huge market. But we're like,
we like people clothes more than.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Naked visionaries had vision.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
But does it have to be always, you know, the
multi billion dollar market. I mean, not every business needs
to be multi billion dollars, right.
Speaker 5 (20:36):
It's all about matching the horse, jockey and market. Right.
What we don't talk about as much is we have
a private equity business that's buying cash flow businesses, and
we purchased a healthcare staffing firm and you know some
other companies. And that's a company. It's been around for
twenty five years, it's been profitable, and the founders are
incredible at what he does. He's done it for twenty
(20:57):
five years, and it's not going to be a billion
dollar business. So that jockey and that horse, they're awesome.
And the market is staffing, executive recruiting in the healthcare world,
which is big enough to grow this company for the
rest of our lives. Right. So it's just a matter
of like, if you're a venture investor, you have to
look at stuff that's going to drive venture returns. I
(21:19):
would argue that many of your listeners are better off
being kind of an entrepreneur through acquisition, right, this whole
ETA world where you know, you have very smart listeners.
They've done a lot of stuff. I know a lot
of them, right, because we come from the same world.
And how do they apply those skills if they want
to be an entrepreneur through companies that don't force them
(21:40):
to go from zero to one, but they can just run.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
With you know, Merza like where you sit and you know,
obviously you took a very early, you know, kind of
shot at this you know, startup company called Buddy Media.
I mean, I just love to get you know, kind
of turning the tables on my partner here, like what
made you comfortable taking a bet on this tiny startup
because that's going to also be squared?
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Well, they weren't so tiny by the time I got there.
Speaker 5 (22:07):
I don't think we were tiny. You were one of
our first supporters, so it was.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Early, which is awesome, and I was and now I
look at him like, gosh, I should not on that
side of the table. My corporate slog making a salary.
But two thousand and seven kind of an auspicious year.
You started it the iPhone, But for me professionally, that
was a year I took on this big corporate role
doing something that no one had done in this company before,
(22:32):
which was to lead this thing called digital marketing and
social media and all that no one even knew what
it was yet I always joke it wasn't even called
social media. It was still called web two point zero,
So really no one even knew what it was at
that point, right, That's how I timestamp it in my head.
I know, I want to say, of course in this case,
I was picking the jockeys, right, I mean, look at
the jockeys who were behind it.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
But it was just the capabilities too. And I don't know,
I don't even remember how to answer that question. It's
all the factors that influence you today. Maybe it was
peer referral, maybe it was relationships. Maybe it was like,
oh no, this is exactly what we need. It's a
combination of believing in the horse and believing in the jockeys,
believing the products, believing in the people.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
But still there's always choices. So it's funny that you
flipped that on me, because I wasn't thinking that way.
I was just thinking, wow, how can I apply everything
that casts a micer saying to my life? In corporate
which I also think is the interesting thing with shoveling
shit right, is as much as it feels like an
entrepreneurial mindset, I think a lot of people who are
(23:37):
in a larger corporate context still have so many lessons
to draw from it.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
What do you think?
Speaker 7 (23:44):
I agree because you know, I was in the corporate
world for I don't know, let's just call it seven
or eight years. And I look at all my friends
and you know, we always say, and if we ever
have to counsel them or they ask this advice, it's like,
how can you be an entrepreneur yourself? Like you are
the entrepreneur right, no matter where you work, no matter
(24:06):
whom you work for, So how can you think about
it and you know, succeed and move your career forward?
So I agree with you, Mersa. That's always been something
in my mind because learning all these things. I learned
a lot of lessons from being in the corporate world.
It wasn't just because oh, like I was born an entrepreneur.
It's it's kind of what I learned from being in there.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
But it's interesting they always say we want people with
that entrepreneurial mindset, right, And I'm sure. You know, Mike,
you know you and I could sure we trade lots
of war stories, like I think it's kind of a
lot of shit because they don't want change.
Speaker 6 (24:42):
I mean corporation saying that.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yes, big companies always say it. They don't want that change.
Speaker 6 (24:46):
You know, it depends on how big, right.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
It depends on what pieces of it you're taking too.
I was in a meeting earlier today, so I'll make
this very timely. And look, I'm a senior executive, so
it's different. I get that. Different in good ways, maybe
different in bad ways. But this has been a recurring
theme in my career and having to do new things
for companies is whenever you're doing something new, and that is,
(25:10):
to me, the commonality of someone in a corporate context
versus an entrepreneur. If you're someone that's driving change, you're
doing something new, which means it's an unproven and there
isn't a process for it, and there's inherent risk. But
at the same time, you're doing because you believe there's upside.
And I just said to my CEO, Look, i know
I'm in a company with resources, but to get this
(25:31):
sub business off the ground, I want you to know
I'm playing it like I'm a kid in a garage.
So I'm not building a staff yet until we have
it started, and then once we have proof of revenue,
then we'll add staff. So and I set that to
try to build confidence. Do I have more resources than
a kid in a garage? Yeah, But realistically, the constraints
(25:53):
in corporate America right now, especially with the economy being really.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
What euphemism do I want to dot?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
U is chaotic, unpredictable, I mean, but I mean I
think that the lessons of entrepreneurialism, if they're internalized the
right way that you can teach, do really transcend entrepreneurs.
Speaker 7 (26:17):
I agree with you, and like Stephen, I see what
you're saying, Like in big corporations, I was never I
guess it was in a big management consulting firm.
Speaker 6 (26:25):
You know, do they want soldiers? Do they want to
just have people do what they're told to do?
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (26:29):
But how you attack things, how you attack your own career,
how do you attack a project? I think that's how
you lead. I think leading like an entrepreneur is with
like over communication, like radical transparency, all those kind of things.
I think there are lessons that do apply.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
For the individual, for every listener here, I could not
agree more because I think that entrepreneurial mindset, I would
always try to make the distinction. You know, you are
not defined by your job. The role is something that
you actually create. You need to kind of be that
entrepreneur in your own career. And I'm curious, you know
how you guys view this because you obviously both have
(27:11):
big corporate experience, but you kind of took this entrepreneurial path,
and you know, I'm curious, do you feel like this
is something that everyone can do? Because a lot of
folks ask, oh, I'd love to be an entrepreneur, and
I kind of look at them in the eye and
I'm like, you're not cut out for this. And I'm
just giving a real talk because part of the issue
is really knowing who you are and having the thick
(27:35):
skin to kind of get up every day get told no,
not have a team, not have a big company behind you,
Like it is hard, it's not for the faint of heart.
Speaker 7 (27:45):
Yeah, we say all the time that really what entrepreneurship
is is the ability to embrace uncertainty and doubt and
fear still move forward, you know, making decisions without perfect
information about all the information and being full of fear.
So if you don't have the appetite for that scenario,
(28:07):
then you shouldn't be an entrepreneur because there's not going
to be a day that you're gonna be like, oh
my god, I know everything today and everything's going well.
It's just not what happens now. Is there more security
in a corporate world. Yeah, there's more structure, there's more rules,
there's more processes, which is why we say that there's
beauty in this struggle of being entrepreneurs. You know, it
(28:28):
really sucks on most days and there's nothing we'd rather do.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
I have to just ask you because we have to
talk about the fact they're a husband and wife team.
I mean, is this Stephen talked about he and his wife.
My husband's in pr and we joke that it would
not be good if we want into business together. We
flirted with it and played with it. So are you
couple goals or is this business risk? Because it's marriage
risk doing this all together. I mean, you have to
(28:54):
give us a little bit of perspective. One like you go,
I'll follow you.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
You guys a smart woman, it's smart miikey. You try
it don't.
Speaker 5 (29:05):
Yeah, I mean, all I'll say is that we've now
been around for fifty years and we've seen a lot
of relationships, co founder relationships, marriages. We've seen healthy ones,
we've seen not so healthy ones. We've seen codependency, we've
seen depression, we've seen abuse, We've seen everything. And so
I don't think that there's any one model. And working
(29:27):
together does not give us a monopoly on difficult relationships.
So because we work together doesn't mean it's harder, nor
does it mean it's easier. It just means that you
have to communicate. You can't take things personally. You have
to have a shared vision. We're all in together. So
when we started if golf dot Com, our first company
together didn't work out, we both were getting jobs right. Like,
(29:51):
It's not like we had one person who was a
money maker the other person who was like a dreamer. Like,
we were all in and for us at least, because
we have very different skill sets, we have good communication.
We really love each other and like each other, which
is different. We have built a life that so far
(30:12):
surpasses my wildest dreams. When I look back at me
is like a cross eyed eighteen year old with like
a bad heart, and I have started another company with
someone that failed.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Is that like your LinkedIn bio.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Yes, I'm I feel like it should be.
Speaker 5 (30:30):
So I feel like every co founder relationship has to
have common vision and we talk about this in the book.
And if you are not communicating well with the most
important people in your life, it's just not going to
end well. And so Cast is an incredible operator. Whi's
(30:51):
an incredible mom. And so I feel like every day
I hit the lottery. Now I have some strengths. I
guarantee you Cast doesn't feel the same way, and I
get it. I understand why. Like I'm a little crazy,
I like bands, I travel a lot, I'm like all
over the place. But Cas, I don't want to speak
for you, but I kind of can. I'm trying. I'm
(31:11):
hoping that they're going to end the podcast right now.
Speaker 6 (31:13):
Are you trying to get me to jump.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Out of the break?
Speaker 5 (31:16):
Let's just turn it off.
Speaker 7 (31:18):
The truth is I appreciate everything you said, honey, but
I also want to add that I think that being
married and having different skill sets and being able to
work together is a superpower, especially when we come up
across similar co founder relationships that are out there.
Speaker 6 (31:36):
They're married, they.
Speaker 7 (31:37):
Have different skill sets, they do not overlap. They're not
micromanaging each other. It's almost like they have shorthand in
their communication and that trust is so big, like you
can feel it in the room when they're talking, and
they know how to stay out of each other's lanes,
and there's just this simpatico of like in this synchronicity.
Speaker 6 (31:58):
I love it. And when I back of when we.
Speaker 7 (32:01):
Started dating and then I was like, oh, yeah, I
want to start this idea and I you know, I
wanted to be golf dot Com and all this stuff,
Like I can't imagine anybody else I would have picked
because I already knew and saw him in his everyday
life and he had this ability to be this huge visionary.
So I don't know if that answers it. But I mean,
I don't know if it's couple goals. I don't think
(32:21):
it's for everybody. And like, look like we don't work together.
We work together, but people would be like, how did
you go to work to I never saw him, like
he was on a different floor, Like I'm doing my thing,
he's doing his.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
You guys weren't in two cubes right next to each other.
Speaker 7 (32:38):
No, no, And you know what, I will say, we
have the same exact struggles everybody else does. Our lanes
just happened to be like the difficult ones parenting because
that's together, right, And then writing this book was hard
because we were in the same lane.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
But I will say it is something where you guys
are extraordinary humans individually bring your superpowers together. It's hard
to do. And I will say, you know, building, you know,
kind of the in Ganto startup with my wife and
obviously another co founding family, but specifically with my wife,
it was an incredible journey and to your point, we
(33:16):
got that shorthand we understood our strengths. But she will
be the first one to say, I wouldn't want to
do that again. And I think it's also just knowing
where your boundaries.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
Are and limits and limits.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Right, because you got to know when to kind of
shut it off. I'm probably similar, you know, maybe to you, Mike,
like I'm the energizer bunny. I will go on and
i will work twenty four to seven.
Speaker 6 (33:37):
I think I think you mean to talk to me.
Speaker 7 (33:39):
Now, that's me, that's me, that's cass.
Speaker 5 (33:43):
Okay, Cass never stuffs.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
All right, fair enough, Mike was giving me false advertising.
So Cass, you and I will talk like that. I
will go twenty four seven and ifs be like, we
got to stop. Yeah, like, I can't talk about this anymore,
you know, So just understanding how you guys have blended that,
and you guys understand each other so well, that really is,
you know, just a couple of goals. I think that's
spiomrus Well.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
We think your superpowers are extraordinary individually and collectively, and
it's just really fun to get to talk to you together.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
So can we switch gears now and play a little
round of cool or crint?
Speaker 7 (34:21):
I can't wait for this.
Speaker 5 (34:22):
I can't wait.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
I'm excited to see where your answers are the same
and where they're different.
Speaker 6 (34:27):
Okay, all right, so.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Steven, what do you think you want to go to?
The first one?
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Okay? So cool or cringe? Founders that are posting daily
on LinkedIn all about their startup journey? Is that self
promotion or is that sharing the entrepreneur's journey?
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Cool?
Speaker 6 (34:54):
Mike, you go always first, and then I'll go after that.
Speaker 5 (34:56):
Well, I mean, assuming it's good content. I think cool,
because if you open up connections to people in your
industry and potential employees and they know you. It turns
into an asset.
Speaker 6 (35:09):
So I think cool.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
Yeah, what do you think, Steven?
Speaker 3 (35:12):
I think it's cool. I think we're well passed the
idea of oh, that person just trying to self promote.
I think the level of authenticity if you do not
show up, if you do not share your your voice,
your struggle. Hey this is working great. Oh this didn't
go so great. Like the authenticity factor, people just need
to show up and they they need to see it
because if not, then people are going to be suspect anyway.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Yeah, agreed, all right, how about this one founders who
already have merchandise like merch before they've even created revenue.
Speaker 7 (35:45):
Cooler cringe cringe, cringe, cringe, cringe.
Speaker 6 (35:48):
Yeah, why cringe for me?
Speaker 7 (35:50):
Because listen, I'm all about buzz and I think we
built like an incredible culture at the last company that
we did, Buddy Media. I think you have to have
money that validates that you have the budget to actually
do that stuff.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
Makes sense? How about you, Mike agree? Is it a cringe?
Speaker 5 (36:11):
I would agree with that. I would agree with that,
and primarily because of focus, like you need to focus
as a founder, you need to focus as an executive,
you need to focus as a human. And so if
you start instead of you know, focusing on what matters, then.
Speaker 6 (36:30):
It's just the wrong message.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Well, it's probably the opposite of shoveling shit, right, if
you're already got the the swag.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Ahead of the.
Speaker 5 (36:39):
Focus on the right stuff. Yeah, unless you're a T
shirt company, or unless you're a swag company.
Speaker 6 (36:43):
I guess exactly, it's like the wrong message too.
Speaker 7 (36:46):
It's like going out and spending investor money without really
proving the model.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
All right, So, speaking of investors vcs just in general,
VCS core.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
That's a general.
Speaker 5 (37:00):
They're definitely not cool. They're definitely not cool. So anyone
who thinks and we are vcs part of our life,
I would never call them cool. Many of them are cringey.
The ones who are most cringey are the ones who've
never worked for a company, and they don't understand culture.
They don't understand that things don't live in spreadsheets. They
(37:22):
don't understand that you show up as a founder, you
punched in the face and you got to figure out
what to do. And so investors who have worked at
companies even if they've failed, even if they weren't successful,
understand the struggle. I look at my friend Jeff Richards
at Notable Capital, like he has been incredible VC, incredible
friend to us, incredible you know, returns for his LPs.
(37:46):
He was an entrepreneur who had a huge flame out right,
and so he was able to talk to us from
a position of vulnerability and understanding our struggles in a
way that others will never be able to talk to us.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Dido, we'll take a ditto, all right.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
All right, Mercy, you get the last.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
One, all right.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
I feel like there's a lot of dime store business
wisdom wall plaque with business wisdom, picking one and seeing
if this one feels actually cool or actually cringe based
on it being a big one here for entrepreneurs, quote
fail fast, fail often?
Speaker 2 (38:27):
What would you call that?
Speaker 5 (38:28):
I hate that fail fast is right, but don't fail
off you.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
No, I don't love either. But it's funny how it
comes up as like a mantra.
Speaker 7 (38:39):
I think I just heard that too, which is so weird.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
I don't like it. I heard it this week too,
That's maybe why I had it in my head.
Speaker 5 (38:45):
Yeah, No, I've heard it. But what I don't get
is like, whenever you launch is a chance you fail,
so fail fast. And we're all about the pivot, and
there's a whole chapter about like death and the pivot
and how to identify it and how to get an
organization through pivot like a change of model. But the
idea that you want to fail often to me is
(39:06):
makes like stresses me Outah, Like no, I want to
fail as the minimum amount of times to get product
market fit infrequently.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Right there you go, agreed, Product.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Market fit is just one of those you know kind
of terms. Can we end on that cool or CRNT?
Product market fit?
Speaker 4 (39:25):
Cool? Cool? Sorry? Was I allowed to answer?
Speaker 5 (39:28):
Of course, yes, I think it's a cool thing in
the world because once it happens.
Speaker 6 (39:33):
That's when the magic is.
Speaker 5 (39:34):
Yeah, PMF is when you get product market fit, your
misery immediately starts to end. That's when the fun begins.
Speaker 7 (39:47):
That's when like the gas gets hit. That's when you
can higher, that's when you can do swag. That's the
fun part. You're scaling. I mean, it's difficult organization wise,
but yeah, it's fun part.
Speaker 6 (40:00):
I like it.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
It's cool, honestly, Cass and Mike there's so much wisdom here.
Everyone's got to go out and get this book. It
drops June third, is that correct, that's.
Speaker 5 (40:09):
Correct, that's right. Order it now.
Speaker 7 (40:10):
You can get it on Amazon or shovelingshit dot com.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
Wherever find books are sold. But honestly, there's so much
wisdom here. And seriously, just thank you for keeping it real.
The stories are invaluable and just as a fellow entrepreneur,
you know, just really valuable to have your thoughts, your
insights and just really sharing these stories. So thank you
for being a part.
Speaker 5 (40:30):
Of Brand New, thank you for having us, thank you
for your time. We're honored, we really are.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
This is great and now it's time for what's on
your minds? And so our listener this episode is Taylor
from Austin, who writes as someone launching a D two
C brand in a crowded category. I'm torn between building
a purpose driven identity from day one versus focusing on
product differentiation first and adding purpose later. Marisa and Steven,
(40:58):
how do you advise found to sequence these priorities, especially
with limited resources. Geez, you just wanted a big campaign,
probably with limited resources relatively speaking, I mean, how would
you answer this?
Speaker 4 (41:13):
Person.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
I guess I just don't see purpose and product as
being disconnected or sequential. So you're starting a company, and
I mean it kind of fits the theme of entrepreneurialism
that we've had this episode in the last I mean,
you have to first answer what is your purpose as
a founder? And I think we've heard actually a lot
on this from Mike and kas so it's quite appropriate really.
(41:38):
But then in terms of your product or service or
whatever your proposition is, I always believe it has to
answer a why. So if you're talking about a greater
social purpose that may or may not be intrinsic to
what you're doing and what you're wanting to build or sell.
And if it's not, then maybe you hone that original
(41:59):
proposition the business model, and get that off the ground
and then figure out how there's sort of a philanthropic piece,
if that's what you mean. But your purpose and what
you do to me have to be actually deeply intertwined,
because they both are. Why Why does this need to
exist in the world, Why should anyone care about it?
(42:22):
Why should someone prefer it to something else? Why is
this going to be my life's work? There's so much
of what we do in business that we make really complex,
and one of the things I've found myself doing more
and more as I've gotten older is trying to strip
it down to its essence and its simplicity, and that
includes trying to figure out how to turn brands around
or reposition them. It's like, well, what's their why? So
(42:44):
for me, it's an interesting question because I'd encourage you
to not think of them as two totally different things.
And if they are that in and of itself, great,
it's a question what do you think, Stephen?
Speaker 3 (42:54):
I mean, I wholeheartily agree. You know, as an entrepreneur,
there's always this challenge of trying to do so many
things simultaneously. And I always remember someone that I deeply respect,
but also just you know, I always have him kind
of in the back of my head, mister Antonio Lucio,
who you know and love, and he's always saying focus, focus, Focus.
(43:20):
You have to say it with a little bit of
a thicker accident.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
Don't try to imitate the accent. It never goes well.
Speaker 3 (43:25):
I will, But the ability to focus and understanding sequencing,
I think is one of the hardest things for an
entrepreneur because it really is literally putting one foot in
front of the other. But what are you going to
do first? What are you going to do second? And
you can't do it all and so understanding to your point,
you know, purpose and product they shouldn't be two different things,
(43:49):
but you do need to start with the product, right, like,
what is it that you are going to do? What
is the offer? What is truly going to help you
get to product market fit? And so I always would
tell people instead of thinking of MVP a minimal viable product,
I would always say, start with an MVC, a minimal
viable community and really understand who your customers are and
(44:14):
what does that community really need Because getting that customer
feedback in real time, understanding how you super serve them,
I feel like that is really, you know, kind of
you're trying to get that flywheel going, But you have
to start with the product. And if you really make
the product about the community, about their needs, I think
you'll also discover the purpose of the product as well.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Well.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
On that note, great wisdom, great insight throughout this whole episode,
and we.
Speaker 4 (44:42):
Hope you really enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Come back next time.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
If you like what you're hearing from us, Please be
sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode, and
as always, we really do love to hear your questions,
so tell us what's on your mind by emailing us
at ideas at brandashnew dot
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Com and please follow us on all the social of
course LinkedIn everywhere else, and we will see you next
time on brand New
Hi, and thanks for joining us on brand new from
the iHeart Podcast Network and brand new Labs.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I'm Marissa Thalberg.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
And I'm Steven wolf Patta and finally back home in
La after a week of travel. But everyone is coming
to La Marisa because it is Coachella. Have you ever been?
Speaker 2 (00:25):
I have never been.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
And I've been to a lot of really great festivals
and things like iHeart Festival, but no, I have not
been to that.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
However, my daughter Hada is there right now, so.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
She has all the Coachella outfits all right, So she's
the cool ready to go. She's cool, and I just
hope she is safe and has fun, have fun, be safe,
looking like a mother.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
And to some selfies speaking about things kicking off, I
think you just kicked off something pretty big this week
as well.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
This was a big work week for me in the
sense that our team at Long Last gotcha, but not
even long Last, we actually did it so fast. I
only joined this company about six months ago, and just
the strategy, the vision for what to do with JC Penny,
which you know is now just one of a portfolio
of our brands, but the most seminal one. Yeah, so
(01:18):
we just launched a big new platform to try to
open more hearts and minds to j C.
Speaker 4 (01:25):
Penny.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
And what is that platform, Marisa, what do you wear it?
Speaker 1 (01:28):
Well, it's just simply yes j C Penny, which I love.
But all the creative is so good. I hope you
guys will check it out, certainly on JC Penny's social accounts,
my social accounts, go shopping. And we've just got like
a bunch of very very different, convention breaking ways of
telling the brand story and also telling a big promotional story.
(01:49):
We simultaneously launched our spring really big deals with a
first ever integration on Jimmy Kimmel Live.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
So that's a lot of fun that just happened. It's
a lot all at once, but you were cranking.
Speaker 4 (02:01):
It's exciting.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
This is the part of the job that I live for, really,
when the thinking and the creativity come together and then
you sit and nervously hope that you have at least
a moment to let it play out and start to work,
because not everything is instantaneous return. It takes time to
kind of get a legacy brand back into the center
(02:23):
of the action. But I'm optimistic about this and I'm
really proud of it. So if anyone on the team
is listening, thank you and kudos, because it really is
about the teamwork, and it always.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
Is for me.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
You deserve obviously tons of kudas for launching that in
record time. But speaking of investors and you know returns,
I spent a week also in New York.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
I know we were both in New York, but didn't
see each other, which is that, well.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
We couldn't see each other. Yeah, but I was there
celebrating at the annual SEO gala, which does not stand
for a search engine optimization as a lot of people think.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
That's what I thought.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
Would you told me that's where you were? I mean,
that's what SEO means to people like us.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
SEO has been absolutely transformational in my life because Sponsors
for Educational Opportunity was started in nineteen sixty three, wow,
by a gentleman named Michael Aushwitz when he was like
in his mid twenties at Goldman Sachs, and he basically
started the largest source of diverse talent onto Wall Street.
(03:26):
And in nineteen ninety four I did this summer internship
at this little firm called the Blackstone Group.
Speaker 4 (03:32):
Oh little, and it.
Speaker 3 (03:35):
Is just an incredible experience that does transformed my whole
professional career. And so that's where I learned about finance
and got exposed to Wall Street and Jonathan Gray, who's
now the president of Blackstone, he was like in a
cube like next to me. He was an associate at
the time.
Speaker 5 (03:49):
Like, it's just.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
Unbelievable, and you know, it was all alumni driven. I
was on the board for a decade and now the
chairman of the board is actually Henry Cravis, who is
co founder KKR. So everyone in finance comes out for
this evening. It was wonderful and it was very poignant
because we were actually honoring the founder of SEO who
actually passed a few weeks ago, Michael Ashwitz. So wherever
(04:12):
Michael is in heaven, because he was absolutely a saint.
Thank you for creating this incredible program and launching my
career as well as so many others. Because that is
about legacy, That is about giving back, and you talk
about entrepreneurship as we will in this episode, like that
is something where you really had to impact on people.
Speaker 1 (04:29):
That's really lovely, Gosh, isn't it really about the people
and the impact that they have on you and the
impact that you hope to have.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
And I think about the types.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Of guests that we always bring on, and so much
of it is drawing from our amazing networks because we're
lucky to have met or gotten to know, or even
become friends with just some truly amazing people who have
incredible stories to tell them. You know, we had so
much fun talking to Gail Becker in the last episode.
Speaker 3 (04:57):
She was awesome by the way, loved her.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
I'm so glad you loved her.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
I knew you would, and honestly giving a lens that
we haven't given as much attention to in spite of,
of course, the fact that you yourself are such an entrepreneur.
Speaker 2 (05:08):
So we thought it was so great to talk.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Entrepreneurialism that we should do it again this time, and
this time bring on the most iconic husband and wife
entrepreneurs that we know.
Speaker 4 (05:21):
Cast and Mike Lazrow.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
Cast and Mike are truly incredible entrepreneurs and investors. They
were the co founders of golf dot com and later
they founded a company called Buddy Media, which was the
leading social media marketing platform that was you know, very
early and was eventually acquired by Salesforce for almost eight
hundred million dollars, which is crazy. They've built businesses. You know,
(05:44):
they actually started their own venture firm. They really have
been doing just incredible work for so long in this space.
You know, they've now actually invested in it and over
one hundred early stage founders and startups. They served as
angel investors, you know, for companies like scope Ly, which
got by Savvy Games for five billion dollars and twenty
two they were angel investors in liquid death. I'm sure
(06:05):
everyone here knows liquid death because you can't avoid it
again water in a can. But I'm sure many investors
looked at that and they're like, what, But they were
angel investors. They've seen, you know, kind of what it
takes to be successful. And Michael's actually named to New
York's Ernst and Young Entrepreneur of the Year award, and
together they've been you know, ranked number one on Business
Insiders Silicon Alley one hundred. I mean, they just have
(06:25):
all the accolades. They're incredible people and we're really excited
to chat with them.
Speaker 1 (06:31):
And one more thing before we forget, they are now
soon to be best selling authors with a new book
that really reflects all of the hard earned lessons they've
won themselves in being entrepreneurs, and because it is so
a reflection of who they are, it is a.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
No holds barred title.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Shoveling Shit, A Love Story about the Entrepreneur's messy Path
to Success, to be released.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
On June third this summer.
Speaker 2 (07:00):
When we come back, we'll be with Cast of Mind.
Speaker 3 (07:07):
Welcome Cass and Mike to brand new We're thrilled to
have you guys here.
Speaker 6 (07:12):
Thank you for having us.
Speaker 5 (07:13):
Excited to be here.
Speaker 3 (07:14):
This is a long time coming, and there's so much
to get into, so let's get into it. You guys
are coming out with a book. What is this book called?
Speaker 7 (07:22):
Again, It's called Shoveling Shit, A love Story about the
entrepreneur's messy path to success.
Speaker 6 (07:30):
How do you like that?
Speaker 2 (07:31):
I mean, we did say it in the intro, but
I think.
Speaker 3 (07:34):
Steve, because you say it so welcome. But honestly, I
mean we just got to start with that title. Why
that title?
Speaker 7 (07:42):
For every entrepreneur out there that's doing it right now,
I think they realize that it's just a constant shit storm.
You are shoveling every single day, and if you feel
like something's really going well, you better be ready because
something's about to drop. So we just wanted this book
to be super real, realistic, super relatable to entrepreneurs, and
(08:03):
really to educate anyone who's about to be an entrepreneur
so they can kind of not step in it and
do things much better than we did.
Speaker 3 (08:10):
I'm sending you hearts, just virtual hearts as an entrepreneur,
a serial entrepreneur, just like you. Guys, Like that is
real talk, and I don't think people really talk about
how much shit you actually step in as an entrepreneur exactly.
Speaker 6 (08:23):
It's unreal.
Speaker 7 (08:24):
Like people are like, oh my god, it's so great.
You get to like do whatever you want and work
your own hours, and you know, you can take vacation whenever.
Speaker 2 (08:31):
It's like no, no, it never stopped.
Speaker 6 (08:34):
It doesn't happen that way. It never stops. That's the difference.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Well, let's go.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
Back to a little bit of the Ardent, because what
I love is that I remember your biggest first social
media come out of here first, but the one that
I associate with is Buddy Media because I was a client.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
I mean, just an unbelievable exit from that.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
But you've done so many other things, as we've described
in the beginning too, so you know what it's like
not just to start things and have it be successful
once you've done it few times. And I know in
the book you're going to be talking about different questions
to ask that can help entrepreneurs decide whether to even
green lighten idea in the first place. Right because we
all lie stand in the shower, lie in bed, have ideas.
(09:13):
We all think we've got the next big thing. How
do you actually know when you've got one that is
worth truly going for?
Speaker 6 (09:21):
Mike, you go for it.
Speaker 5 (09:23):
Yeah. So, over thirty years of making mistakes both with
our own businesses and they haven't all worked out. We
write about some of those failures in the book and
then investing in over one hundred others, which, let me
just tell you they all haven't worked out. We've put
together basically a list that we call the go Gauge,
which for those of us who are not business school people,
(09:45):
it's a very simple way to look at an idea,
and frankly it comes from our world. You know what
you've done your whole career. Moris is basically look at
kind of markets and product market fit communications. So the
six very quickly is product what are you selling? Why
is it better that existing options? Is number two? So
(10:07):
what we call differentiation three is really a customer. But
we look at it not from total size of market.
It's a much simpler question who is going to buy
it and how many of those who's are there? Right? So,
if you're in the golf industry, it's an eighty billion
dollar industry. If you don't have a golf course, you're
not getting tea time revenue, right, So it's basically how
(10:31):
many customers are there for that? And then for something
that we've always hung our hat on, as you know,
sales and marketing, how will customers find out about your product?
And I think the world is shifting from engineers to
sales and marketing. It's much easier to build an app.
I think it's much harder to get the word out.
And then it just comes down to operations, so we
(10:54):
call delivery channel. How will you get it to the customers?
And then finally it's does the financial model past the
smell test? You know, we don't ask entrepreneurs to do
you know, thirty page PowerPoint and spreadsheet with all of
the numbers, but we say, hey, if you sell it
for a dollar.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
Oh, tell me where your projections are in five years. Yeah,
it's just a really good, really bulletproof financial model in
five years exactly.
Speaker 5 (11:22):
So that's I mean, it's basically has saved us a
lot of money on the investment side. I didn't take
this advice in launching one company, but it at least
helps you realize is this something I want to start?
Because if you can't convince yourself, you're not going to
convince anyone else. And if you answer these questions, good
chance that you have something to least it's worthwhile.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
It sounds like you took the classic you know, from
a marketing lens, right Marit's so you took the four
p's and you added maybe a few other dimensions to it,
maybe just to kind of make it a little bit
more practical or substantive. But is this real at the
end of the day, really looking at the four classic
piece when you are an investor, because investors love to
(12:06):
hate on marketers, But at the end of the day,
those four p's have been around forever for a reason.
Speaker 5 (12:11):
Cas could take that out. She's an incredible marketer.
Speaker 7 (12:14):
What do you think, Yes, I think you hit it
on the head like We're not trying to recreate the
wheel here, right, but we are trying to give a
very quick and concise lens through which anyone. It doesn't
matter if you're thinking about starting a venture backed tech
company like we did, or if you're trying to open
a pizza shop or a retailer, like, does this make sense?
(12:37):
Have I thought through the most important questions? So I
think to us it was like pretty easy, like it's
a go or it's a no go if you can
get through these questions.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Okay, So take it out of paradigm mode and into
story mode, because that's what everyone wants to hear is
you've been through so much and you've.
Speaker 4 (12:54):
Had such wild successes.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
So give us like one of each, something you did
early on that was like god, that really made a
difference in our success, and maybe something that you look
back and like, oh, that was a mistake.
Speaker 7 (13:07):
I can take one that I think was a huge
pivoting and pivotal moment for Buddy Media, which was when
we shifted from our previous three models, which sucked, but
we were doing custom apps, which is, as you know,
not a scalable business at all, and we pivoted to
a SaaS company because we actually listened to customer feedback,
(13:30):
which I think is a big thing for entrepreneurs to
learn is to listen to and to get those kind
of brand advocates on board early, even if they're not
paying you, even if they're not paying you enough, because
they really help you shape what is it that the
market needs from me? Right, and so you can actually
deliver a product that gets sold. So I think that
(13:52):
was huge. And when we pivoted, it was less than
three years till we hit fifty million in annual recurring revenue.
So that was like a great thing, Mike, do you
want to talk about stuff that didn't work?
Speaker 5 (14:03):
Yeah. So the biggest one and the biggest kind of
egg I have on my face a company called shape Matrix,
which I launched with a friend that is a visual
language based on the eight basic shapes that populate the world.
And it came out of my friend Jonathan Kramer's art
And there were applications in cybersecurity and supply chain, veracity,
(14:26):
so tag and track, and we never really looked at
like who's the customer who's going to buy it? Right?
We had all these like ideas that were like smoke,
but we didn't really get down to like, who's going
to buy it, how many customers, how are we going
to distribute it right? How are we going to get
it into the market. And you know, we raised twelve
million dollars and as of now we've generated zero revenue.
(14:50):
So I take responsibility for it. I was the serial entrepreneur.
This was after you know, we sold to Salesforce. I
got very excited, as I do about a lot of ideas,
and so part of the go gage is how do
we help other entrepreneurs save their time because at the
end of the day, time is more valuable than anything else,
whether you have money or not. If you don't have money,
(15:12):
all you've got is time, right, So that's very valuable,
but even more so if you're successful.
Speaker 4 (15:17):
Thank you for sharing that.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
What I love in the vulnerability that story is it
wasn't like, well, we made these mistakes and then we
got it right and then it was just smooth sailing
from there. Because there's something very I think relatable for
most people to say, Hey, even someone who's had unbelievable
success can still fall into a trap, can still believe
(15:40):
their own enthusiasm and not validate and we all do it.
I think no matter how experienced we are, I know
I fall.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
In love with the ideas.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Sometimes it's my greatest strength, but maybe also my weakness.
So how do you value make sure you have other
people validating it. And I just think it's great that
that example is part of your story and it wasn't
at the beginning of your journey.
Speaker 5 (16:01):
Cass is the weird perfect compliments. I am very optimistic.
I love everything, I get very excited. She's a radical realist.
She's not a pessimist. She's not a pessimist, but she
will basically stop and say, okay, let's unpack this. And
(16:22):
all entrepreneurs need that, whether they're your co founder, your wife,
your husband, doesn't matter who that person is. You have
to have that person. And frankly, the more successful you get,
the more people just want to say yes to you.
So Cass is my let's just say, without Cass, i'd
probably be like homeless or definitely broke, maybe in jail.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
Mike, I'm right there with you because you and I
are definitely come from the same cloth. And Cass, you
know my wife, Naria, I feel like she's very similar
to you, and we also founded a company to get there.
I effectually call her.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
Doctor no.
Speaker 3 (17:00):
Absolutely love, but you know she definitely is the realist.
I think that is the right way. But you know,
I'm curious when you zoom out, because not only have
you guys been entrepreneurs and you've gone from zero to one,
you also are investors. You know, I started my career
in investing, and so there's always the classic do you
bet on the jockey or do you bet on the horse?
(17:21):
And the rational part of me could certainly understand why
you always bet on the jockey for all the reasons
that we know, but there is something where I do
feel understanding how to go to zero. For one, you
do need to have a force of nature. You do
need to have this belief and you know the reality
distortion field, you know what Steve Jobs was always known for.
(17:45):
The jockey versus the horse really is an interesting debate.
I'm curious where you guys come out now that you've
done so many investments and you've seen so many entrepreneurs.
Speaker 7 (17:54):
If I took a stab at this, I would say,
Mike bet on the horse when it came to Buddy media,
But he also knew that with the both of us
as the jockeys. It was going to be a pretty
good fit because social media was just starting, right. This
was two thousand and late two thousand and seven. The
iPhone just came out, if you remember that, and it
(18:17):
was crazy, right, and he bet on this powerful movement
that friends wanted to connect. So I think in some
ways we're seeing the same thing with AI, and we're
also seeing everybody's in AI. Right, And how do you
differentiate what's a good idea?
Speaker 3 (18:35):
I e.
Speaker 7 (18:36):
The horse versus great jockeys that are trying to figure
out their idea. So that's where I come from. Mike,
what do you have to say?
Speaker 5 (18:44):
I think that there's something missing from this question, which
we ask a lot and we talk about a lot,
which is, you know, there is no betting on either
the horse or the jockey unless you understand what race
you're running.
Speaker 3 (18:57):
Oh, you just got deep, Mike.
Speaker 5 (19:00):
Yeah, well, thank you. It doesn't happen often, but yeah.
A big part of what we do is investors is
looking at do we want to be in this race?
Do we want to be in this market? Is this
the type of market that can support the type of
company that we envision here? Right? If you want to
win a million bucks in a race. You're not going
to enter tiny races. You're going to go get a
(19:21):
race horse and enter like Kentucky Derby, or at least
try to win your way in, right, And so I
don't think you could ignore the horse. You definitely can't
ignore the jockey. That's table stakes. You're not going to
send someone into the Kentucky Derby who can't drive that horse. Right.
But where a lot of entrepreneurs, and frankly, where we've
(19:41):
gotten it wrong on the investment front is really picking
markets that are just too small to build big businesses.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
Yeah, it's such a powerful insight man, because that at
the end of the day, that's what most vcs don't
tell you. They'll just you know, smile, do the grin
fog and just not give you that feedback, which is,
you know what, this is too tiny because I need
to make a ten x return. They don't understand the
economics of their business.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
Yeah, they'll go to I've never seen a big business
grown in a tiny market. Now, the market may be
tiny today, but you have to have some vision that,
oh it's not going to be tiny, right, every market
starts small. Semiconductor, social media, clothing, right, go back ten
thousand years. It wasn't a huge market. But we're like,
we like people clothes more than.
Speaker 4 (20:27):
Naked visionaries had vision.
Speaker 3 (20:28):
But does it have to be always, you know, the
multi billion dollar market. I mean, not every business needs
to be multi billion dollars, right.
Speaker 5 (20:36):
It's all about matching the horse, jockey and market. Right.
What we don't talk about as much is we have
a private equity business that's buying cash flow businesses, and
we purchased a healthcare staffing firm and you know some
other companies. And that's a company. It's been around for
twenty five years, it's been profitable, and the founders are
incredible at what he does. He's done it for twenty
(20:57):
five years, and it's not going to be a billion
dollar business. So that jockey and that horse, they're awesome.
And the market is staffing, executive recruiting in the healthcare world,
which is big enough to grow this company for the
rest of our lives. Right. So it's just a matter
of like, if you're a venture investor, you have to
look at stuff that's going to drive venture returns. I
(21:19):
would argue that many of your listeners are better off
being kind of an entrepreneur through acquisition, right, this whole
ETA world where you know, you have very smart listeners.
They've done a lot of stuff. I know a lot
of them, right, because we come from the same world.
And how do they apply those skills if they want
to be an entrepreneur through companies that don't force them
(21:40):
to go from zero to one, but they can just run.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
With you know, Merza like where you sit and you know,
obviously you took a very early, you know, kind of
shot at this you know, startup company called Buddy Media.
I mean, I just love to get you know, kind
of turning the tables on my partner here, like what
made you comfortable taking a bet on this tiny startup
because that's going to also be squared?
Speaker 2 (22:04):
Well, they weren't so tiny by the time I got there.
Speaker 5 (22:07):
I don't think we were tiny. You were one of
our first supporters, so it was.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
Early, which is awesome, and I was and now I
look at him like, gosh, I should not on that
side of the table. My corporate slog making a salary.
But two thousand and seven kind of an auspicious year.
You started it the iPhone, But for me professionally, that
was a year I took on this big corporate role
doing something that no one had done in this company before,
(22:32):
which was to lead this thing called digital marketing and
social media and all that no one even knew what
it was yet I always joke it wasn't even called
social media. It was still called web two point zero,
So really no one even knew what it was at
that point, right, That's how I timestamp it in my head.
I know, I want to say, of course in this case,
I was picking the jockeys, right, I mean, look at
the jockeys who were behind it.
Speaker 2 (22:53):
But it was just the capabilities too. And I don't know,
I don't even remember how to answer that question. It's
all the factors that influence you today. Maybe it was
peer referral, maybe it was relationships. Maybe it was like,
oh no, this is exactly what we need. It's a
combination of believing in the horse and believing in the jockeys,
believing the products, believing in the people.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
But still there's always choices. So it's funny that you
flipped that on me, because I wasn't thinking that way.
I was just thinking, wow, how can I apply everything
that casts a micer saying to my life? In corporate
which I also think is the interesting thing with shoveling
shit right, is as much as it feels like an
entrepreneurial mindset, I think a lot of people who are
(23:37):
in a larger corporate context still have so many lessons
to draw from it.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
What do you think?
Speaker 7 (23:44):
I agree because you know, I was in the corporate
world for I don't know, let's just call it seven
or eight years. And I look at all my friends
and you know, we always say, and if we ever
have to counsel them or they ask this advice, it's like,
how can you be an entrepreneur yourself? Like you are
the entrepreneur right, no matter where you work, no matter
(24:06):
whom you work for, So how can you think about
it and you know, succeed and move your career forward?
So I agree with you, Mersa. That's always been something
in my mind because learning all these things. I learned
a lot of lessons from being in the corporate world.
It wasn't just because oh, like I was born an entrepreneur.
It's it's kind of what I learned from being in there.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
But it's interesting they always say we want people with
that entrepreneurial mindset, right, And I'm sure. You know, Mike,
you know you and I could sure we trade lots
of war stories, like I think it's kind of a
lot of shit because they don't want change.
Speaker 6 (24:42):
I mean corporation saying that.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yes, big companies always say it. They don't want that change.
Speaker 6 (24:46):
You know, it depends on how big, right.
Speaker 1 (24:49):
It depends on what pieces of it you're taking too.
I was in a meeting earlier today, so I'll make
this very timely. And look, I'm a senior executive, so
it's different. I get that. Different in good ways, maybe
different in bad ways. But this has been a recurring
theme in my career and having to do new things
for companies is whenever you're doing something new, and that is,
(25:10):
to me, the commonality of someone in a corporate context
versus an entrepreneur. If you're someone that's driving change, you're
doing something new, which means it's an unproven and there
isn't a process for it, and there's inherent risk. But
at the same time, you're doing because you believe there's upside.
And I just said to my CEO, Look, i know
I'm in a company with resources, but to get this
(25:31):
sub business off the ground, I want you to know
I'm playing it like I'm a kid in a garage.
So I'm not building a staff yet until we have
it started, and then once we have proof of revenue,
then we'll add staff. So and I set that to
try to build confidence. Do I have more resources than
a kid in a garage? Yeah, But realistically, the constraints
(25:53):
in corporate America right now, especially with the economy being really.
Speaker 4 (25:58):
What euphemism do I want to dot?
Speaker 1 (26:00):
U is chaotic, unpredictable, I mean, but I mean I
think that the lessons of entrepreneurialism, if they're internalized the
right way that you can teach, do really transcend entrepreneurs.
Speaker 7 (26:17):
I agree with you, and like Stephen, I see what
you're saying, Like in big corporations, I was never I
guess it was in a big management consulting firm.
Speaker 6 (26:25):
You know, do they want soldiers? Do they want to
just have people do what they're told to do?
Speaker 4 (26:29):
Yes?
Speaker 7 (26:29):
But how you attack things, how you attack your own career,
how do you attack a project? I think that's how
you lead. I think leading like an entrepreneur is with
like over communication, like radical transparency, all those kind of things.
I think there are lessons that do apply.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
For the individual, for every listener here, I could not
agree more because I think that entrepreneurial mindset, I would
always try to make the distinction. You know, you are
not defined by your job. The role is something that
you actually create. You need to kind of be that
entrepreneur in your own career. And I'm curious, you know
how you guys view this because you obviously both have
(27:11):
big corporate experience, but you kind of took this entrepreneurial path,
and you know, I'm curious, do you feel like this
is something that everyone can do? Because a lot of
folks ask, oh, I'd love to be an entrepreneur, and
I kind of look at them in the eye and
I'm like, you're not cut out for this. And I'm
just giving a real talk because part of the issue
is really knowing who you are and having the thick
(27:35):
skin to kind of get up every day get told no,
not have a team, not have a big company behind you,
Like it is hard, it's not for the faint of heart.
Speaker 7 (27:45):
Yeah, we say all the time that really what entrepreneurship
is is the ability to embrace uncertainty and doubt and
fear still move forward, you know, making decisions without perfect
information about all the information and being full of fear.
So if you don't have the appetite for that scenario,
(28:07):
then you shouldn't be an entrepreneur because there's not going
to be a day that you're gonna be like, oh
my god, I know everything today and everything's going well.
It's just not what happens now. Is there more security
in a corporate world. Yeah, there's more structure, there's more rules,
there's more processes, which is why we say that there's
beauty in this struggle of being entrepreneurs. You know, it
(28:28):
really sucks on most days and there's nothing we'd rather do.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
I have to just ask you because we have to
talk about the fact they're a husband and wife team.
I mean, is this Stephen talked about he and his wife.
My husband's in pr and we joke that it would
not be good if we want into business together. We
flirted with it and played with it. So are you
couple goals or is this business risk? Because it's marriage
risk doing this all together. I mean, you have to
(28:54):
give us a little bit of perspective. One like you go,
I'll follow you.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
You guys a smart woman, it's smart miikey. You try
it don't.
Speaker 5 (29:05):
Yeah, I mean, all I'll say is that we've now
been around for fifty years and we've seen a lot
of relationships, co founder relationships, marriages. We've seen healthy ones,
we've seen not so healthy ones. We've seen codependency, we've
seen depression, we've seen abuse, We've seen everything. And so
I don't think that there's any one model. And working
(29:27):
together does not give us a monopoly on difficult relationships.
So because we work together doesn't mean it's harder, nor
does it mean it's easier. It just means that you
have to communicate. You can't take things personally. You have
to have a shared vision. We're all in together. So
when we started if golf dot Com, our first company
together didn't work out, we both were getting jobs right. Like,
(29:51):
It's not like we had one person who was a
money maker the other person who was like a dreamer. Like,
we were all in and for us at least, because
we have very different skill sets, we have good communication.
We really love each other and like each other, which
is different. We have built a life that so far
(30:12):
surpasses my wildest dreams. When I look back at me
is like a cross eyed eighteen year old with like
a bad heart, and I have started another company with
someone that failed.
Speaker 3 (30:24):
Is that like your LinkedIn bio.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Yes, I'm I feel like it should be.
Speaker 5 (30:30):
So I feel like every co founder relationship has to
have common vision and we talk about this in the book.
And if you are not communicating well with the most
important people in your life, it's just not going to
end well. And so Cast is an incredible operator. Whi's
(30:51):
an incredible mom. And so I feel like every day
I hit the lottery. Now I have some strengths. I
guarantee you Cast doesn't feel the same way, and I
get it. I understand why. Like I'm a little crazy,
I like bands, I travel a lot, I'm like all
over the place. But Cas, I don't want to speak
for you, but I kind of can. I'm trying. I'm
(31:11):
hoping that they're going to end the podcast right now.
Speaker 6 (31:13):
Are you trying to get me to jump.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Out of the break?
Speaker 5 (31:16):
Let's just turn it off.
Speaker 7 (31:18):
The truth is I appreciate everything you said, honey, but
I also want to add that I think that being
married and having different skill sets and being able to
work together is a superpower, especially when we come up
across similar co founder relationships that are out there.
Speaker 6 (31:36):
They're married, they.
Speaker 7 (31:37):
Have different skill sets, they do not overlap. They're not
micromanaging each other. It's almost like they have shorthand in
their communication and that trust is so big, like you
can feel it in the room when they're talking, and
they know how to stay out of each other's lanes,
and there's just this simpatico of like in this synchronicity.
Speaker 6 (31:58):
I love it. And when I back of when we.
Speaker 7 (32:01):
Started dating and then I was like, oh, yeah, I
want to start this idea and I you know, I
wanted to be golf dot Com and all this stuff,
Like I can't imagine anybody else I would have picked
because I already knew and saw him in his everyday
life and he had this ability to be this huge visionary.
So I don't know if that answers it. But I mean,
I don't know if it's couple goals. I don't think
(32:21):
it's for everybody. And like, look like we don't work together.
We work together, but people would be like, how did
you go to work to I never saw him, like
he was on a different floor, Like I'm doing my thing,
he's doing his.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
You guys weren't in two cubes right next to each other.
Speaker 7 (32:38):
No, no, And you know what, I will say, we
have the same exact struggles everybody else does. Our lanes
just happened to be like the difficult ones parenting because
that's together, right, And then writing this book was hard
because we were in the same lane.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
But I will say it is something where you guys
are extraordinary humans individually bring your superpowers together. It's hard
to do. And I will say, you know, building, you know,
kind of the in Ganto startup with my wife and
obviously another co founding family, but specifically with my wife,
it was an incredible journey and to your point, we
(33:16):
got that shorthand we understood our strengths. But she will
be the first one to say, I wouldn't want to
do that again. And I think it's also just knowing
where your boundaries.
Speaker 4 (33:25):
Are and limits and limits.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
Right, because you got to know when to kind of
shut it off. I'm probably similar, you know, maybe to you, Mike,
like I'm the energizer bunny. I will go on and
i will work twenty four to seven.
Speaker 6 (33:37):
I think I think you mean to talk to me.
Speaker 7 (33:39):
Now, that's me, that's me, that's cass.
Speaker 5 (33:43):
Okay, Cass never stuffs.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
All right, fair enough, Mike was giving me false advertising.
So Cass, you and I will talk like that. I
will go twenty four seven and ifs be like, we
got to stop. Yeah, like, I can't talk about this anymore,
you know, So just understanding how you guys have blended that,
and you guys understand each other so well, that really is,
you know, just a couple of goals. I think that's
spiomrus Well.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
We think your superpowers are extraordinary individually and collectively, and
it's just really fun to get to talk to you together.
Speaker 2 (34:14):
So can we switch gears now and play a little
round of cool or crint?
Speaker 7 (34:21):
I can't wait for this.
Speaker 5 (34:22):
I can't wait.
Speaker 1 (34:23):
I'm excited to see where your answers are the same
and where they're different.
Speaker 6 (34:27):
Okay, all right, so.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Steven, what do you think you want to go to?
The first one?
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Okay? So cool or cringe? Founders that are posting daily
on LinkedIn all about their startup journey? Is that self
promotion or is that sharing the entrepreneur's journey?
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Cool?
Speaker 6 (34:54):
Mike, you go always first, and then I'll go after that.
Speaker 5 (34:56):
Well, I mean, assuming it's good content. I think cool,
because if you open up connections to people in your
industry and potential employees and they know you. It turns
into an asset.
Speaker 6 (35:09):
So I think cool.
Speaker 4 (35:10):
Yeah, what do you think, Steven?
Speaker 3 (35:12):
I think it's cool. I think we're well passed the
idea of oh, that person just trying to self promote.
I think the level of authenticity if you do not
show up, if you do not share your your voice,
your struggle. Hey this is working great. Oh this didn't
go so great. Like the authenticity factor, people just need
to show up and they they need to see it
because if not, then people are going to be suspect anyway.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Yeah, agreed, all right, how about this one founders who
already have merchandise like merch before they've even created revenue.
Speaker 7 (35:45):
Cooler cringe cringe, cringe, cringe, cringe.
Speaker 6 (35:48):
Yeah, why cringe for me?
Speaker 7 (35:50):
Because listen, I'm all about buzz and I think we
built like an incredible culture at the last company that
we did, Buddy Media. I think you have to have
money that validates that you have the budget to actually
do that stuff.
Speaker 4 (36:08):
Makes sense? How about you, Mike agree? Is it a cringe?
Speaker 5 (36:11):
I would agree with that. I would agree with that,
and primarily because of focus, like you need to focus
as a founder, you need to focus as an executive,
you need to focus as a human. And so if
you start instead of you know, focusing on what matters, then.
Speaker 6 (36:30):
It's just the wrong message.
Speaker 1 (36:32):
Well, it's probably the opposite of shoveling shit, right, if
you're already got the the swag.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Ahead of the.
Speaker 5 (36:39):
Focus on the right stuff. Yeah, unless you're a T
shirt company, or unless you're a swag company.
Speaker 6 (36:43):
I guess exactly, it's like the wrong message too.
Speaker 7 (36:46):
It's like going out and spending investor money without really
proving the model.
Speaker 3 (36:52):
All right, So, speaking of investors vcs just in general,
VCS core.
Speaker 4 (36:59):
That's a general.
Speaker 5 (37:00):
They're definitely not cool. They're definitely not cool. So anyone
who thinks and we are vcs part of our life,
I would never call them cool. Many of them are cringey.
The ones who are most cringey are the ones who've
never worked for a company, and they don't understand culture.
They don't understand that things don't live in spreadsheets. They
(37:22):
don't understand that you show up as a founder, you
punched in the face and you got to figure out
what to do. And so investors who have worked at
companies even if they've failed, even if they weren't successful,
understand the struggle. I look at my friend Jeff Richards
at Notable Capital, like he has been incredible VC, incredible
friend to us, incredible you know, returns for his LPs.
(37:46):
He was an entrepreneur who had a huge flame out right,
and so he was able to talk to us from
a position of vulnerability and understanding our struggles in a
way that others will never be able to talk to us.
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Dido, we'll take a ditto, all right.
Speaker 3 (38:07):
All right, Mercy, you get the last.
Speaker 4 (38:08):
One, all right.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
I feel like there's a lot of dime store business
wisdom wall plaque with business wisdom, picking one and seeing
if this one feels actually cool or actually cringe based
on it being a big one here for entrepreneurs, quote
fail fast, fail often?
Speaker 2 (38:27):
What would you call that?
Speaker 5 (38:28):
I hate that fail fast is right, but don't fail
off you.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
No, I don't love either. But it's funny how it
comes up as like a mantra.
Speaker 7 (38:39):
I think I just heard that too, which is so weird.
Speaker 2 (38:42):
I don't like it. I heard it this week too,
That's maybe why I had it in my head.
Speaker 5 (38:45):
Yeah, No, I've heard it. But what I don't get
is like, whenever you launch is a chance you fail,
so fail fast. And we're all about the pivot, and
there's a whole chapter about like death and the pivot
and how to identify it and how to get an
organization through pivot like a change of model. But the
idea that you want to fail often to me is
(39:06):
makes like stresses me Outah, Like no, I want to
fail as the minimum amount of times to get product
market fit infrequently.
Speaker 2 (39:14):
Right there you go, agreed, Product.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
Market fit is just one of those you know kind
of terms. Can we end on that cool or CRNT?
Product market fit?
Speaker 4 (39:25):
Cool? Cool? Sorry? Was I allowed to answer?
Speaker 5 (39:28):
Of course, yes, I think it's a cool thing in
the world because once it happens.
Speaker 6 (39:33):
That's when the magic is.
Speaker 5 (39:34):
Yeah, PMF is when you get product market fit, your
misery immediately starts to end. That's when the fun begins.
Speaker 7 (39:47):
That's when like the gas gets hit. That's when you
can higher, that's when you can do swag. That's the
fun part. You're scaling. I mean, it's difficult organization wise,
but yeah, it's fun part.
Speaker 6 (40:00):
I like it.
Speaker 3 (40:01):
It's cool, honestly, Cass and Mike there's so much wisdom here.
Everyone's got to go out and get this book. It
drops June third, is that correct, that's.
Speaker 5 (40:09):
Correct, that's right. Order it now.
Speaker 7 (40:10):
You can get it on Amazon or shovelingshit dot com.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
Wherever find books are sold. But honestly, there's so much
wisdom here. And seriously, just thank you for keeping it real.
The stories are invaluable and just as a fellow entrepreneur,
you know, just really valuable to have your thoughts, your
insights and just really sharing these stories. So thank you
for being a part.
Speaker 5 (40:30):
Of Brand New, thank you for having us, thank you
for your time. We're honored, we really are.
Speaker 3 (40:35):
This is great and now it's time for what's on
your minds? And so our listener this episode is Taylor
from Austin, who writes as someone launching a D two
C brand in a crowded category. I'm torn between building
a purpose driven identity from day one versus focusing on
product differentiation first and adding purpose later. Marisa and Steven,
(40:58):
how do you advise found to sequence these priorities, especially
with limited resources. Geez, you just wanted a big campaign,
probably with limited resources relatively speaking, I mean, how would
you answer this?
Speaker 4 (41:13):
Person.
Speaker 1 (41:13):
I guess I just don't see purpose and product as
being disconnected or sequential. So you're starting a company, and
I mean it kind of fits the theme of entrepreneurialism
that we've had this episode in the last I mean,
you have to first answer what is your purpose as
a founder? And I think we've heard actually a lot
on this from Mike and kas so it's quite appropriate really.
(41:38):
But then in terms of your product or service or
whatever your proposition is, I always believe it has to
answer a why. So if you're talking about a greater
social purpose that may or may not be intrinsic to
what you're doing and what you're wanting to build or sell.
And if it's not, then maybe you hone that original
(41:59):
proposition the business model, and get that off the ground
and then figure out how there's sort of a philanthropic piece,
if that's what you mean. But your purpose and what
you do to me have to be actually deeply intertwined,
because they both are. Why Why does this need to
exist in the world, Why should anyone care about it?
(42:22):
Why should someone prefer it to something else? Why is
this going to be my life's work? There's so much
of what we do in business that we make really complex,
and one of the things I've found myself doing more
and more as I've gotten older is trying to strip
it down to its essence and its simplicity, and that
includes trying to figure out how to turn brands around
or reposition them. It's like, well, what's their why? So
(42:44):
for me, it's an interesting question because I'd encourage you
to not think of them as two totally different things.
And if they are that in and of itself, great,
it's a question what do you think, Stephen?
Speaker 3 (42:54):
I mean, I wholeheartily agree. You know, as an entrepreneur,
there's always this challenge of trying to do so many
things simultaneously. And I always remember someone that I deeply respect,
but also just you know, I always have him kind
of in the back of my head, mister Antonio Lucio,
who you know and love, and he's always saying focus, focus, Focus.
(43:20):
You have to say it with a little bit of
a thicker accident.
Speaker 4 (43:23):
Don't try to imitate the accent. It never goes well.
Speaker 3 (43:25):
I will, But the ability to focus and understanding sequencing,
I think is one of the hardest things for an
entrepreneur because it really is literally putting one foot in
front of the other. But what are you going to
do first? What are you going to do second? And
you can't do it all and so understanding to your point,
you know, purpose and product they shouldn't be two different things,
(43:49):
but you do need to start with the product, right, like,
what is it that you are going to do? What
is the offer? What is truly going to help you
get to product market fit? And so I always would
tell people instead of thinking of MVP a minimal viable product,
I would always say, start with an MVC, a minimal
viable community and really understand who your customers are and
(44:14):
what does that community really need Because getting that customer
feedback in real time, understanding how you super serve them,
I feel like that is really, you know, kind of
you're trying to get that flywheel going, But you have
to start with the product. And if you really make
the product about the community, about their needs, I think
you'll also discover the purpose of the product as well.
Speaker 2 (44:37):
Well.
Speaker 1 (44:37):
On that note, great wisdom, great insight throughout this whole episode,
and we.
Speaker 4 (44:42):
Hope you really enjoyed it.
Speaker 2 (44:43):
Come back next time.
Speaker 1 (44:45):
If you like what you're hearing from us, Please be
sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode, and
as always, we really do love to hear your questions,
so tell us what's on your mind by emailing us
at ideas at brandashnew dot
Speaker 3 (44:57):
Com and please follow us on all the social of
course LinkedIn everywhere else, and we will see you next
time on brand New
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