July 20, 2023 • 61 mins
Welcome to the final episode of our reflections on "Queen Charlotte: A Bridgerton Story." This episode, we embark on a journey into the minds of Creator Shonda Rhimes and Executive Producer Betsy Beers to dig into their creative process.
Shonda a writer who we learn writes in her head, and Betsy, the self-described Shonda-whisperer, are the producing duo forged out of decades of partnership. They’ve captivated audiences around the world, breathing life into characters that are both peculiar and compulsive, royal and yet firmly planted on Earth.
Join us for this noteworthy conversation with Shonda Rhimes and Betsy Beers as they rediscover the magic that captivated them, making "Queen Charlotte" a story they simply needed to tell.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Queen Charlotte. The official podcast is a production of Shondaland
Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to
the final episode of our Reflections on Queen Charlotte of
(00:23):
Bridgeton Story. I am your humble and honored host, and
we're gathered here today for a truly noteworthy conversation with
two distinguished guests. That's why you're here right today. We
have the immense privilege of sharing time with creator Shonda
Rhymes and executive producer Betsy Bears as we reflect on
(00:44):
this remarkable series. I'm filled with gratitude for the opportunity
to pick the brains of these two brilliant minds and
to delve deep into their process. And I gotta say
it was really fun to watch them rediscover in real
time the juice that got them hooked on telling this
story in the first place. Shonda and Betsy, acclaimed producers
(01:06):
storytellers in their own right, have captivated global audiences with
their unparalleled ability to breathe life into characters that are bizarre, royal,
untouchable in that way, and yet firmly planted on earth.
All right, So here we are, we are finally taking
your questions to creator Shonda Rhymes and executive producer Betsy Beers.
(01:32):
So without further ado, let's just get right into it.
For me, and I think for a lot of fans,
I am most fascinated by your working relationship and how
that has flourished over the years, changed Morphed became what
it is. So I'm really curious about how the two
of you work together, and I know that this project
(01:52):
was special for a few reasons. Could you tell us
about that and then if you could really paint a
picture of what it looks like to be working together.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
It's a funny question because at this point we're so
used to working together by also not working together, if
that makes.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Any sense, that totally makes sense.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
You know, we get together and we discuss projects. In
the writing process, I'm always talking to Betsy about what
I'm thinking or what I'm considering, or how it's going
to work. And at the same time, Betsy's sort of
working to make sure production is prepped the way it
needs to be prepped and understands the vision that I'm
trying to put out there, a job that gets easy
or anything for all of us. Because of Tom, since
(02:30):
Tom's also part of our permanent little group now, which
is really nice. But you know, usually I'm writing and
either telling Betsy it's terrible, or sending her pages and
telling or I think it's great, and try telling me
what she thinks. And then when there's a script, we
sort of hit the road talking about production and stuff.
And at this point I don't have to say to Betsy,
here's the vision that I have for Queen Charlotte, because
(02:51):
Betsy already has that vision too. We've worked together for
so long that we just see things the same way, now,
don't you think, Betsy?
Speaker 3 (02:59):
I agree with that? And the great thing is we're
sounding boards for each other, and especially what I like
to feel like is we have conversations about stuff or
what's interesting about stuff, or we'll start with like, I
think this point is interesting, and her big brain will
like spew out some amazing sort of what ifs, and
then we can start with the what ifs and push
(03:22):
them in lots of different directions. And one of the
things I love to do, and I've done my whole
life in this job, is I'll drive in four billion
directions just for the hell of it. And then it's
a little bit like a buffet. You can, you can
kind of pitch with every directly. But I don't really
have to do that with Shanda anymore because we've been
doing it for so long. She always hits the ground running,
(03:45):
and with this project especially.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
I knew what it was.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
She knew exactly what it was, and the first conversation
we had she said, this is what I feel this is,
and that's what it was. Yeah, I mean I think
it went through less quote unquote development. I'm making those
little annoying quote sounds with my fingers so anybody knows
what I'm doing. But there was no real development of this.
This was, I would say, like the unfurling of your brain.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
And it had been like it had been sitting in
there for a while or something.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Yes, it happened, But I have to say you also,
you very often percolate without percolating.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yes, that's very true.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Wait, what do you mean.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Well, it's like I say, it's like coffee. It's like
in the back of her head something. The grounds are
in there, you put the water in and it's just
sort of percolating back there.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Like ideas just are sort of building, right.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
They're just sort of building and sometimes we'll talk about
a bunch of different things, just randomly, because she's my
favorite person to cal and go like, did you just
read this thing? It really annoyed me? Or do you
know what's amazing about life? And then somehow or another,
she's already formed some sort of story in her head
that speaks to all the questions I had. True, it's
(04:59):
kind of like magic, except really hard work.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
The hard thing about is working together for so long
is that we can no longer explain how we work together.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
It's true, that was the biggest load of garbage that
just come out of my mouth.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
But it's so hard to talk about because it's so
it's literally the way we've been living life for twenty
years now, so it's very hard to describe to somebody
what breathing feels like.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
It's true. And my favorite moment sometimes is there have
been points. Do you remember if there was one point
long time ago where we're in a meeting and it
was a it was an incredibly tortured, not particularly productive
meeting in which there was an executive spewing things. Yes, that,
and there was a moment she looked at me and
she said, can you translate right.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I looked at it. I was like, what are they saying?
They're not sucking creatively.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
It said a lot of blat of blue quietly, and
she was like, Okay, this makes absolutely no sense. But
so there's a certain amount of translation. But even more
so at this point, we'll just like each other and
go to go do you know the thing that happened
at the time when we did that thing? And I'll go, yeah,
I don't, Yeah, I totally do.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Any long term relationship that you're really close, where you've
been through a lot of experiences, I think probably you'd
talk to anybody who'd say, yeah, I'm one of the
things I value most is the closest not to have
to talk.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yes, yeah, Yeah, it's funny. I was just saying to
my dad. Sometimes you just can be in a room
with someone and not say anything exactly and not necessarily
like the Violet and Danbury moment. But you know, so
you mentioned what ifs. I'm wondering if there were any
particular what ifs that blew your mind, Betsy for this
(06:39):
particular project. Was there a what if early on that
sent you in forty eight billion directions?
Speaker 3 (06:46):
I think with this project specifically, there are fewer what
ifs that I was coming up with because with this project,
so much was already in her head. You know, I
think sometimes we'll be dealing just sort of with a
world and what place more of a what iflick? What
if you actually dug into this particular character. We talked
about this thing which is bothering. I always started, and
(07:07):
I think Shawanda does too, with what am I feeling
or how am I thinking? Or what's in my brain?
But I don't think there was as much of that
with this because it was something that emerged, I think
fully grown from her brain.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
There was something about watching Golda play Queen Charlotte that
made me begin to imagine a world in which that
character started out and began her journey.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
One of the questions that we received was if Shanda
you actually when you are percolating, are you journaling and
writing or do you have post it notes everywhere? Or
do you just talk out loud? What does that look
like for you?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah, none of the above. I'm not journaling or writing,
or putting post it notes or talking out loud. Generally,
when Betsy means like something's percolating in the back of
my brain for real. I'll be going about my whole
dayly life doing something completely different. Sometimes I'm even writing
another project or working on another project. But the story,
the idea for something is in the back of my
brain and then one day I wake up and I'm like, okay,
(08:04):
I'm ready to write it down now. And when I
write it down, it's pretty much fully formed. Like I'm
not a person who turned through drafts and like is
pained in that way.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
It's more pained.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah no, but you know, like writing is, it can
be a painful process, but I'm not I don't have
that process. I either know what I'm writing or I don't,
and if I don't, then I'm not writing it yet.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
It's still purklating, that's exactly right. It's it's nothing, you see,
it's just back there. And you know, when the bread's baked,
it comes out of the oven, so it's but it's
I think I'm going to use a lot of cooking metaphors,
but I do. I think it's it's funny because we
always sort of say, like when something going to be ready,
(08:46):
It's like, well, it's not ready till it's ready, and
when it's ready, it'll come out and it will be
what you see on film. And to be honest, that
was true with The Gray's Anatomy and that's true with this.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
A lot of writers, I think, write and then they
put a draft out and then you have to get
notes and there's a lot of feedback and a lot
of changes and a lot of molding, and I think
I do all that in my head, and then whatever
we end up turning out as a page is usually
what we end up shooting.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Yeah, I mean ninety nine point nine percent of the time.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Yeah, that makes me think about some of the things
that are that become what ifsen what happened for the audience.
Like my first time through watching, I kept hinging myself
onto this idea of the great experiment, and I felt
like there was enough room for the audience for myself
(09:36):
to just wonder exactly what you all were getting at
with some of the ideas and concepts that emerged in
Queen Charlotte. And I'm wondering if you actually birth it
that way where it may not seem like a complete
or like there is more to be unpacked but you
don't even know yet what that is is. No, it
(09:59):
doesn't work Fad no, So you know, like like the
she knows.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
You you know, I don't know how to explain it,
but you just know and then you write it down.
I wish, I wish that there was a way to
bottle it because then I could do it much easier.
But you do, you know, and then you write it down.
So some of these things, you know. The Great Experiment
was something that I started talking about from the beginning
in terms of how we were going to build this
world and tell the story.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
And I think also it was connected to something that
was you know, in the Bridgerton universe, was something that
you felt incredibly strongly about, Shonda, and really wanted wanted
to create your own articulation of that.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Right because it's given one line. It's given like one
line or two lines in the Bridgerton story. You know,
their love united nation, and that's great, But I was like,
I need there to be a world that works with
this inside the Bridge reverse for this to work.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
One of the really nice things I heard from the
cast was being dropped into this world where everybody works differently,
and so there's so much to glean and there's so
much to share. It sounds like a really great thing.
But there's something that you just said too that makes
me think of one of these questions. If you know
(11:09):
everything going into putting out this work, you then know
the answer to what happened to Reynolds.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Of course I didn't.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Everybody wants to know. I know what happened to Reynolds,
and I'm not.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Ready to tell anybody what that answer is.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Perhaps this is good, perhaps perhaps it is bad.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
I told a complete story. I left you with some questions.
I think those questions are vital and important, but I'm
not telling the answers yet.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
We won't know what happened to Reynolds.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
We no, no, And.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
You know, for me, I feel like, if you watched
it correctly, you do know what happened. It's very interesting,
Like to me, it's very obvious what happened. There's such
a powerful moment where you understand Brimsley explains it all.
I'm fascinated by people thinking that he died, which is
not true, or that there's something like Brimsley explains what happened.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
And if you watched it correctly, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
That's not that's not a fair sentence. Okay, you watched
it correctly is.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Not a fair sentence was that was a tiny bit judgy.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, it's judge. It's true. There's no incorrect way to watch.
You're so right, there's no incorrect way to watch. You
know what it is in my mind, like I was,
I'm on a very straight path. So to me, A
plus B makes C plus y and so I'm always
amazed when people truly like and I kind of love it.
It's part of the creative process. Take like they say,
A plus B equals Q, and they see a completely
(12:41):
different world around, which sometimes is fascinating to me. And
I'm able to take it in creatively and build on it.
And sometimes I'm like, that doesn't make any sense to
what I was thinking at all. So that's the beauty
of it. I also have this thing where I truly
believe that what I write and what I intend and
the way it's received can be two different things. And
that's okay.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
I was just going to ask you both if that
is okay. Oh yeah, Patsy. The last time I've spoke
with you, you said, you know, you put the thing out.
You put it out, it's out. And that is a
skill in itself to be as a producer, to just
let it go, Let it breathe on its own.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Oh, it doesn't belong to you anymore. That's the thing
is it's it's can you cleave it to your bosom,
you know, for four billion years? And then you you
craft it and love it to the best that you can,
and then you put it out into the world and
then you're onto something else too that you want to
(13:35):
That's another story you want to tell.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
My oldest sister called me up and yelled at me
for about twenty minutes about the fact that I didn't
explain what happened to Reynolds. So yeah, and she was
so angry and she wants to know and I wasn't
telling her, and she's not pleased with me right now.
But that's okay.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Hey, that's the breaks.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah, we'll be right back with more insights about Queen
Charlotte A Bridgeton Story from executive producer Betsy Beers and
creator Shonda Rhymes.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Hi, it's Betsy Beers. You're listening to Queen Charlotte A
Bridgerton Story the official podcast Let's go into the Steep Dive.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So I love to know when I'm wrong about things.
Cyrus is my all time favorite character. But one of
my absolute favorites is Eli Pope from Scandal and Too.
I tried to connect the dots to him across the
body of work of Shondaland all the time I felt
like there was a little of Eli talking to live
(14:45):
when I heard Lord Danburry talking to Agatha, and maybe
it was a stretch, but I was wondering, Shonda, where
that voice comes from.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
So here's what's fascinating to me. Eli speaks from the
pain of the existence of being a powerful man who
is invisible. To me. The person who actually holds his
voice the most is Lady Danberry. Is Agatha. Agatha speaks
of the pain of being a powerful, invisible person who
is not seen. And herman, her husband, who is a
(15:19):
very sweet, complex, difficult man who she has great affection
and sympathy for no matter what, is in a lot
of ways, her damsel in distress that she is rescuing.
I mean, you have to really see it that way.
Papa Pope and Agatha Danbury, they stand in the same
place in power. Poor Hermann hasn't had a chance.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
I see that now, I see that, and I hear
that now I think I was taking it at face
value maybe.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
There's almost nothing that Hermann says. You have to remember
that she's the puppet master of everything good that happens
to him, Oh my goodness, and she very quietly allows
him to pretend that he has more power than he
does because she understands how painful his life has been.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Cyril spoke about that too. He said that he poured
the parts of himself that understood being marginalized and still
needing to be tender to those around him and not
having the time or space to do that. And I
guess maybe that's what I was connecting, Like, that's interesting.
(16:27):
When Eli was calling Olivia he concubine. I was like, yes,
that is the thing.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
He was calling it as he saw her behavior, which
is different than treating her a certain way. Do you
see the difference, Like he's expecting her to be an empowered,
three dimensional woman. Okay, Herman's not expecting that. Herman believes
that Agatha is nothing more than a quiet little wife.
I mean, there was a lot of talk about like
(16:55):
the sex scenes, for instance, and I was like, she's
People were like it's a and I was like, it's
not assault. It's a man whose ad never considered the
idea that a woman could ever enjoy herself sexually, because
that's not a definition of sex for a man. But
b it's never incurred to Agatha either, because this is
the only man she's ever known. She's bored out of
her mind. So you know those scenes where she seems
(17:16):
to be like making lists and thinking while they're in
bed together, She's bored out of her mind. She finds
it boring. And I kind of felt like if every
woman who really was bored and sort of over having
sex with her husband called it assault, we'd be in
a whole different world right now, Like that's what that is.
She's in a long term, sort of very boring, dead
marriage where she's never been awakened to anything. Her garden
(17:39):
has never bloomed, as we've.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Said, like hello, hello, garden.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
But she feels a great deal of affection for him
because she sees how badly he is treated by the
world and how invisible he is, so he thinks he
has power but he does.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Not, and she sees how hard he takes it because
it feels to me like he's a man constantly who's
being disappointed. Yes, And she spends so much time trying
to mitigate that disappointment, and that's a huge part of
what she does. And that's the thing that I think
is so amazing about that relationship is.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
She takes care of him as best she can.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
And she also understands as she gets more into the
politics of this show, the deprivation that has existed for him.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
There will be no ball trust and angle Joy in
front of me. Never let me grasp it. You are
every bit as good as they are. You have to
(18:58):
understand that all the women are women who use society's
belief about who they should be and the positions they
should occupy. They use those positions and those beliefs against
the people to their own advantage. They're demanding of the
dowager princess, like who is George's new doctor? And she says,
I do not remember names, I'm female, and they I'll
(19:18):
go of course, which is she says it because that's
what they believe, and if they're stupid enough to believe it,
she's going to work it to her advantage. To me,
these are the women using the tools they have around
them to their best advantages.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Princess Augusta is one of my favorite characters for that
reason and me too. Oh my goodness, Betsy. And I
think I would say top three scenes for me is
the pair Brandy scene. I think anyone who I've spoken
with knows that is one of my favorite scenes. And
I don't remember if I asked you, Betsy, but I'm
(19:53):
gonna ask you now. Did you ever have a pair
Brandy moment with anyone early in your.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Career over something later? The brand?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Yeh? Did someone pore you the pair brand? Betsy?
Speaker 3 (20:04):
I'm not sure that there was that much bytuperation, but
in terms of being in a situation where I needed
to be a more worthy adversary, yeah, I mean I
would say that there have been moments definitely with the
people that I would call probably the politicians of our job,
but usually it was you take the gloves off and
you sit there for a second, then you put the
(20:26):
gloss back on. Yeah, as opposed to I don't tend
to have total meltdowns under those situations because yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Very different from Lady Danberry.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Because and she had no one else to go to.
I don't think I've ever had that sense of total
full isolation that that character has, which is one of
the things I love about that scene. The other thing
I love that that scene is how quickly Agatha is
able to pull herself back together again. But the combination
of I don't want to lose my adversary from Augusta,
(20:59):
but also that is the way that she can show
her feelings towards her, and she can't show her feelings
towards her by saying, you know what, I'm so glad
you're in this world because you go get them girlfriend.
She has to say, that's not the same veneration, but
she has gigantic commence of admiration for her, And I
would say, unfortunately, in a lot of these situations I've
(21:21):
been in, I have not had it must as much
admiration as I've had, and it doesn't happen a lot.
But to your point, I think occasionally a situation pops
up where it's politics and you handle it. This is
more long waited way of saying, not exactly like this, No,
but I know what it's like to sit across the
table and bargain with a smile and a drink. Ah.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yeah, I of course have glamorized that in my mind,
and I wonder the same for you. Shonda, who poured
pear brandy for you early in your career, if you
had a moment got that.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
I don't know that I've ever had a moment like that,
but I think I not in And I want to
say this correctly because you know, I love her. I
was raised by a Princess Augusta in the best possible way,
meaning that I feel like I was raised at the
feet of somebody who would pour somebody the prayer brandy
and say get it together. So having been raised by
a woman like that who had those expectations, you know,
(22:20):
I have great admiration for Princess Augusta and what she's
trying to accomplish here for herself, and what she's accomplished
given the world that she's you know, stuck in. And
that's one of my favorite scenes that I've written. And
what made it so great was to get to write
something like that and then to get the footage back
and see the astonishingly amazing performances those actors gave. It's
really exciting when that happens when you write something. I mean,
(22:42):
because I'm not on set, I write something, I send
it off Tom's there, and to have it come back
and be more than what you dreamed is so fantastic.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
I think Actually, that's why that's such a hard question
to answer, is because there's so many layers to that scene. Yeah,
because I can say, have I ever sat across the
table from theoretically an adversary? Have I ever set across
the table from somebody where I showed my vulnerability and
they said keep it? Every single thing is in that scene.
I mean, that scene has every single stage of a relationship,
(23:13):
a friendship, an adversarial relationship. It's like, so it's almost like,
have I ever Yeah, I've had all of those moments.
What's incredible to me is not one scene.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
No, right, it's never in one scene.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
What's someone like that?
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I mean, it's really cool to have this this scene
between the two of them, because you're right, I love that,
Betsy said. It shows her affection for Agatha and her respect,
and honestly, for me, what was important was the concept
that they were in that moment. She was making absolutely
clear that this is the only equals she's got right now.
You know, She's like, don't you fall down on the job,
(23:47):
because if you do, then I'm alone. Exactly, if you're
still standing, then I'm still standing. If you're down then
I have nothing, and I thought that was really powerful
and important.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
So I'm going to jump to a quick question from
fans audience about parenting. Okay, Charif at Sharif Underscore, Scott
Underscore on Instagram asks and there's my baby. Does Lady
Danberry love her children?
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yes, Lady Danberry absolutely loves her children. I think Lady
Danberry loves her children the way women of that era
often love their children, which is somebody else raises your children.
Their children are absolutely being raised by somebody else until
they're useful or interesting. I mean that is flat out
literally just how it was done. So if we're living
in that world, I mean, it's funny because the actress,
(24:37):
you know, Arthma came to me a lot and said
like she a good mother, and I was like, she's
a fantastic mother. She's hired the best nanny governess she
can find, and she's they're fed and clean and no
one beats them, and she treats them, you know, make
sure they have fresh air and sunshine. But the reality
of it is is even when you read all those
books about regency period and Georgian period, the concept of
(24:57):
motherhood as we know it is a very modern concept.
It's a very modern concept, this idea. If you're walking
around carrying a baby on your hip, you are a
servant in that period in time period, I'm a servant
right now. We are, I know, we're all sort I
was just about to say that you took the words
to Adam children. I think part of the issue here
(25:19):
is because people are so immersed in the world of
Violet Bridgerton. Yes, there's this weird sort of expectation that
socially that was the norm and the whole point of
Violet Bridgerton, the whole point of Bridgerton's is their family
is slowly abnormal. The kids sit at dinner, they talk
to the children. She likes her family, they hang out.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
She wants them to get married for love, right. I
mean that that is the opposite hell.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
How any child was raised back then. Violet is a
very different kind of mother because she was happy, but
also because she had her husband let her do what
she wanted. There's no way you could be but like
a lady in waiting to the queen, and what are
you running around playing paddycake with your children. It just
wasn't done, you know. It's why one of the since
I made very clear that when Queen Charlotte had her child,
(26:03):
we see the baby, we know that she spent time
with the baby, but that's it. Like there's no babies
running around, and when you see these surly adults, you're like,
how do they get that way? That to me was
very interesting.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Yeah, oh and I guess that. Yeah, that scene we
see a quick, quick, maybe fifteen seconds of Violet with
her grand babies and that.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Yeah, but see Violet. Yeah, Violet is a very different
kind of mother. Yeah, Violet is on the floor playing
with her grand babies. That brings her joy. I don't
think you'd ever see Agatha Danburg on the floor playing
with her grandbabies, and not because she doesn't love her children,
but because culturally, for all of them in that period
of time, that is not what you do. No, Lady
Featherington wasn't around playing with her grand babies. Like it's
(26:47):
just Violet's mother wasn't playing with her babies. Like that's
not how that works.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
That's so interesting. I asked Ker if he felt who
played Lord Ledger. He felt like his character helped our
audiences understand the way Violet loves and the way Violet
led her family later on, and he felt very much.
(27:13):
So would you say that was intentional?
Speaker 2 (27:17):
No, I purposely wrote him to be this man. I
mean he calls her brains and beauty like I wrote
this man, because how do you turn out to be
a woman like Violet? How do you turn out to
be a woman like Violet who can recognize love in
a man like Edmund and have that life? Violet had
to have a spectacular father, especially considering that I needed
her to have a not so spectacular mother. I very
(27:38):
much wanted you to understand that she knew what that
kind of love was, and that's why she treats her
children the way she does.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
And I think she also picks up on the fact
that her mother and father are very, very very different.
So focusing on, yes, this little bit of longing in
her father, I think also contributes to her desire to
find real love.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
That's a beautiful way to put it.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
She sees his loneliness, then I think she both gets
what is it like to be loved by a wonderful man,
but why it's so important to have a real partner
as opposed to somebody who you're making excuses for, which
is what I always sort of feel like with the
two of them is he's always sort of going like, yeah,
that's your mom, and yet that's your mom.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yet I have so much compassion for Lady Ledger because
when I write, I have to have a passion everybody.
But I have compassion for Lady Ledger because if you
look at it, she's in a house with a team
of two. They are a team, and she is on
the outside. And everything that she believes they treat as
if she is wrong and bad. And really all she's
doing is standing in tradition. She's behaving in all the
(28:48):
traditional ways, and they treat her as if she is
a joke. And that has got to be difficult for her.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
I feel like that is so ripe or right now
in so many facets of life and politics, and that
is fascinating.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
And Katie Braben, who plays Lady Leger, was she just man?
Did she deliver? Oh?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
She's wondering.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Violent.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
The Lady does not stretch her neck like a dry
I want to see the Queen.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
The Queen has not yet made appearance.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
She behaves like a street urchin. She will humiliate us.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
She is perfect, she will bring us nothing that accolades.
I told you she's not yet ready to be out
in society. She is more than ready.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Betsy. Can you talk a little about casting Katie for
that role and your affinity for that character and what
that character represents too.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
You know, I don't remember that being one of those
characters where we saw tapes and tapes and tapes and
taps and taps. I just remember that we all saw
her and she had this absolutely perfect combination of there's
a warmth there. Yeah, she's got real depth. She doesn't
feel she never felt when she read like she was
playing at archly or over emphasizing. She gave her humanity, right,
(30:13):
she gave a humanity and I could see her also.
I mean one of the things obviously that was important
is as we're casting these people who are younger and
younger versions, you want to believe the bloodline. So it's
Violet came out of that person and that face and
that so there was always a physicality to it, which
was key. So she had this incredible combination of being
(30:35):
looking like she could be Violet Bridgerton's mom and also
just being a lovely mannered, excellent actress.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
She had a three dimensionality to her. She was able
to make that out.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Not hateful. I mean, you know what I mean. You
don't have to like her, but I could see who
she was when she was eighteen and she got married, Like,
you can see who she was and how she became
who she is. Well, she's certainly never been allowed to
do that much thinking like it's very stressful for her
to be out thought like. That doesn't make it. What's
this girl doing?
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah, I love the moment in the end when they're
at the ball and Violet's like this lady done me, Hello,
Lady Danberry. And her mother's like she she'll ruin us,
and the father's like she won't. But you understand this
woman's fear because all she has, like all the other
mamas on the marriage mark, is the ability to get
her daughter married to have social success. And if this
(31:27):
child turns out to what she did, right, if it's
childhood out in all these untraditional ways that her father
is supporting, she cannot imagine they're being social success.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Oh my god, that's true. Right, you'll have Eloise on
your hand, yea. Right.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
She's like, this is a terrible idea. I'm gonna have
a spinster for a daughter. This is a nightmare, Oh.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Elise, Yeah, So why do you think both Charlotte and
Lady Danberry were cold towards their children in later life?
Would you even say they were cold?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Now? I don't. I don't say they were cold. For
me that if we're going to talk about motherhood, let's
talk for a minute about Queen Charlotte, because for me,
those moments when her children are like, you know, you
are terrible, and she just can't even make herself explain
why she was a good mother because her job, her
whole job, is to make sure that this line continues,
(32:20):
like that is her job. And she's had all these children,
and she's raised them all, and she's put them all
in the perfect positions, and she's even indulged them for
years obviously because they're all dating whoors and actresses. She's
even indulged them all and all she needs from there's
one thing, and she's tried to let them be their
own people, but they failed miserably. And so to have
(32:40):
them tell her that she's a horrible mother, I felt
was such a hurtful moment for her. But it's also
not untrue because you have that moment when Brimsley says
to her, we've all only ever served one person, like
she's solely served the king and the kingdom and what's
necessary for that, which means you can't necessarily be a
mommy when you're doing all those And so to her,
(33:01):
she's been an excellent mother. She's had fifteen babies, she's
lost two, she's allowed them to live their lives. She's
given them everything they've ever desired. All she's asking is
one stupid thing. And to them, you know, they're busy
yelling at her for holding up a nation.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
I felt the children and you could tell me if
I'm wrong, Betsy too, if that. They were like, but
but mama, queen, you're centering yourselves in our life. And
I felt like that was such a theme for talking
about adult child parent relationships as well, whether that's a
(33:34):
blood parent child relationship or if it's someone that you
work with who is like who you revere or something
like that.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
But wait, does she have an option other than to
center herself. I mean, she's not just herself, she's England.
She's the future of the royal crown. Like, like, what
are they whining about?
Speaker 3 (33:55):
I know exactly what you mean, but when you look
at what you do so brilliantly is you always see
both sides of the coin. What I loved about it
is it's not just the crown. You gave everything up
to that man, so it's not just to our father,
who they have no relationship with to to a large degree,
who they haven't seen. So really it's a little bit
(34:15):
like talking about Lady Ledger and Lord Ledger and whose
side are you on? Because this whole show is about
the choices that you have to make that are heartbreaking
in your life and what you give up and what
you choose. And part of becoming an adult is by
making this choice standing by them. But what her kids
are saying to me and Brimsey saying is Brimsley's different.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Brimsley's also sacrificed.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
He's sacrificed, but in Brimsey's eyes, because Brimsley remembers what
came first. You did it for the world. But it's
that last scene under the bed the whole world revolves
around him.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
That's amazing what you've just said, because basically you're saying
a thing that I thought about passing, but I don't
think I ever really articulated in my head at all,
which is this idea that she has a spectacularly magical
relationship with a man they'll never know.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
They've never known, and they probably will never know. Somebody
was a memory of their childhood, who probably was insane
for much of it, who for a long time has
lived apart from them. So to them, she's revealed spent
her life revering this figure that is the King that
they don't have a relationship with, you know, So they're
put that out of them, so they're orphans. You're right,
(35:30):
That's been her most important relationship. And to her, he
needs her more. Ooh that I'm very clear in her
mind he needs her more.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Yeah, And that was the deal. That was the deal.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
She said, I will stand with you between the heavens
and the earth. I will tell you who you are.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Yeah, half a George, half of like half. It will
behold together, will be whole together. I mean that doesn't happen.
Room for a lot, no, And that's the thing, and
that's why it's so relatable, just in terms of life
and choices, which is something always gets lost in the shuffle,
something always gets sacrificed, Somebody is always disappointed.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yes, there are no bad mothers, there's just incredibly difficult choices.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Yes, well put And it's like the older you get
and the way I look at my mother and Seanda
knows every story in the world about her, and she
was a situation, but she was an incredibly strong and
interesting woman. And the older I got, the more I
started to appreciate a horrible series of choices she had
to make. You know exactly what you're saying. So my
(36:31):
takeaway from this always is and why I cry at
the end of that episode every single time I see
that darn bedscene, is it's worth it for that one
moment and then you go back to what you're doing.
But I guess it's worth it for that one moment.
But what are you missing?
Speaker 2 (36:48):
But I love that moment when she looks up at
her daughter and she says, you've lost babies And it's
never occurred to her, Oh exactly, nobody's ever shared it
with her. It's never occurred to her like that, and
something she's been privy to in any way, shape or form.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Well, and as you said, nobody's ever shared it with her.
So the whole thing is you created. It's so interesting.
You said that because you created a situation. She's in
a situation where where no one will tell her anything anyway,
So it's almost like this self fulfilling prophecy. And she
doesn't really want to know because she's busy, but maybe
(37:23):
she did want to know, you know.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Would she have been a different mother, But she had
been a different mother.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
So it's always that sliding doors of I created a
situation which nobody could tell me what was really going
on because they knew that my single mindedness was directing
me here. What did I miss? Do I think she
thinks about that much? No, because she's a practical, forward
thinking human. But I but that is Yeah, it's so
(37:52):
incredibly relatable and moving.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
It's what's lost in the pursuit of greatness.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Yeah, that's it. That's exactly it.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
So this talk of sacrifice and it all being worth it,
and that last scene also makes me think about all
the people who asked about Brimsley and Reynolds. What's the
moment for Brimsley that makes it all worth it? Is
this something we have yet to see or did we
not see it?
Speaker 2 (38:17):
In me? Well, let's be clear, I don't know if
that moment I mean that seems very clear. She said
that moment makes it all feel worth it, and then
she's back in her life again. So is there a
moment that truly makes it all feel worth it? She
to me the heartbreaking thing, the reason I cry at
the end of the episode when we see them under
the bed together, is because that's what she gets. She's
(38:37):
had a lifetime and all she gets are these little,
tidy moments under the bed together where she can hope
to see glimpses of the George that she loved. You know,
that's opening a door and getting a peek and having
the door closed in your face. I don't know that
that makes anything all worth them. And I think that
this is a story about what happens in the pursuit
of greatness. They are all serving the king. That Brimsley's
(39:00):
in a world in which that is what the main
focus is. Explains to you a lot of his loneliness.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
And it's your whole identity, I mean his that's his
whole identity. It's what you're saying, Seanda. It all boils
down to what do you give up? What do you
get for the pursuit of greatness? So, Betsy, I feel
like that's a question. Do you ask yourself that as
the EP what is lost in the pursuit of greatness?
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Like, I feel like that's a big question.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
I was like, my god, that's that's the years of
therapy question, but also a real one.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
It is everybody who's incredibly devoted to a job that
they love about which they're incredibly passionate. It's one of
your main relationships in your life, and it has that
import and it has that value, and it means it's
sometimes you know, people are always saying like I missed
this anniversary or I missed some of the birth There
(39:56):
there are things that you I think you balance every
day to try to figure out how important that is.
But we all think about all the time. But I
think if you're a perfectionist and you you really care
about what it is you're doing, it doesn't matter if
it's this or something else. You don't have a choice. Like, yeah,
I can't stop thinking about those things and I want
(40:18):
to solve the problem, or I want to crack the net,
or I want to figure out what this piece of
story is that's in the back of my head right
and Shanda knows this. It's like we call them barking dogs.
It's the stuff that, you know, keeps me awake sometimes.
But I get more joy also out of that, and
I think not to the point God knows of being
(40:40):
king or queen of England. Let's not get ahead of
ourselves here.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
But and that's the thing though, I mean, I think
that's the thing about the characters is we are talking
about people. And what fascinated me about the royals is
that they are trapped like, this is not a job
you extensively, This's not a job you can quit. This
is not a job you choose use. This is the
thing that you know. They are going to be queen
and king forever. So for them, the pursuit of greatness
(41:07):
isn't it isn't a choice like it's you know, it
wasn't that long before that people were beheaded, you know.
But for them it's not a choice. They have to
do these jobs. Whereas for us, you know, we're people
who can redefine what we think greatness is every day.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
That's really well put.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
Yeah, they can't do that. They don't have the option
because all they have is what's public.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
But also because it's bloodline too. It's right, you never
can get out of it.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
That's what I found so fascinating about just the world
and even Queen Charlotte. Like she's that woman is trapped
and a job that she can't quit, do you know
what I mean? Like she's got to be the loneliest
woman in.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
England and she tries to quit it. A couple of
times in this show. She means she's like, I'm going
to get I'm going to get on a horse and
a boat. I'm getting hell out of here. And it
was like, actually, no, you can't, because then they will
arrest you because you will be treason. It's because you've
got a bit in your study, you know. It's there's
no free will passed a point. And that's the thing is,
I think I think we can identify with the things
(42:07):
that we all give up on a day to day basis.
But it's still, as SHAWNA says, it's a choice for us.
So but it definitely puts our choices in perspective, that's
for sure. Yes, do you.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Imagine looking at Shondaland's history of depicting my person in
Queen Charlotte. Intimacy is key in your writing and how
Shawndaland's teams have historically anchored shows that are about like
the wild and extravagant or far fetched and the routine
kind of scenarios. They're all anchored by intimacy. So there's
(42:41):
a scene between Corey and Freddy. Corey is young King
George at a long table. He's beginning to compensate or tremble,
and Freddy mentioned are Reynolds mentions the wine you go
where I'm going, I.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Know where you're going. The incredible intimacy of him putting
his hand on his shoulder to study him. Now, there
there's one thing that we did actually cut out of
the show. That's one scene that got cut out of
the show. There's an amazing scene at the beginning of
at the end of EPI said five, where you were
Freddie tells what Reynolds tells Brimsley his history with the King,
(43:19):
that they've known each other since they were children, and
that they kept each other's secrets. And I didn't need
that scene because when you watch them together you can
see that that history and that intimacy and that comfort
level with one another. I mean, to me, what was
most key was Reynolds puts his hand on George's shoulder
(43:41):
when George needs it the most, and Brimsley can only
stand in a hallway and hold his hand out in
the direction of the Queen when she needs it the most.
He cannot put his hand on her. The intimacy that
Reynolds and George have is a much more intense one
built from years and years and years together, versus the
fresh new intimacy between Brimsley and the Queen. We're gonna
(44:03):
take a really quick break in when we return. We're
just gonna jump in and we're gonna unpack your questions. Hi,
it's me Shonda Rhimes. You're listening to Queen Charlotte A
Bridgeton Story, the official podcast. Let's get into these fan questions.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
But first, let's take a moment to talk about the
Garden situation.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
I think about the term you're my person. I think
about the Garden conversation when talking about seeing like friendship
and intimacy. Betsy, can you talk about how that fits
across Shondaland's history of showing friendship.
Speaker 3 (44:50):
I think there's something about that that's both the same
and kind of different than what I would call this
sort of you're my person box Because You're my person, box,
I would put in the young Lady Danbury, young Queen Charlotte.
I think what I love about the garden scene is
it's Violet Danbury, who has no one to talk to
(45:11):
about this and who with whom she has. I would
say a relationship with evolve so with the course of
the show, and at that particular point, it is not
fully evolved yet, so I don't think anybody's anybody's person
at that point. I think at that point what it
is is Violet Bridgerton's going through heat and she has nobody.
(45:31):
She looks around her world and she has kids, and
she has no other female friends. So it's much more
about Violet Bridgerton trying to share something, being relieved and
embarrassed she shared it and then clutching her pan brag
and grabbing her purse and running out.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
You know, yes, my secondhand embarrassment was yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:57):
But what I do think it is is it's a
building block in the hole, which it's a piece in
the hole, which is this how a relationship evolves over
the course. And it's one of my favorite things about
the show is watching two people who have always been
cordial and who have served each other's purposes over time,
(46:19):
and I think our friendly you know, in terms of
these this period of time.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
But what happens over the course of the show is
they actually reach an understanding which is way deeper and
way more profound and sets a different relationship in motion.
And it's where it was one of those things I
watched and I went, I want to see them after
this has transpired as friends, because they're different kinds of
(46:46):
friends now. And going back to your question about Shondaland,
I think that's a lot of or just about how
we to pick female friendships, which is clearly something which
I think is core and key certainly to what I
like to watch.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
And to work on. Is it's that relationships are filled
with changes and surprises and if you don't grow, it
dies kind of like her Garden.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
I love that they're imperfect.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
But they have to be. But to me, I feel
like we're watching Violet, who's a lady who, like you're saying,
how does it relate to my person or having a person.
Violet's a person without a person. Violet doesn't have a person,
yea lady deanber It doesn't have kids. The point is
that these ladies are living these weird isolated lives because
they're not considered to have full lives that they share
with one another. And the moment in which she shares
(47:35):
sort of out of desperation, is this wonderful door that
opens to create some intimacy between the two of them.
That's still not fully intimate relationship because Lady Danburry still
got her own secrets that she's keeping. Also, you know,
I know that we love to talk about female friendships
and I know how important it is, but nobody ever
talks about male friendships as if it's a remarkable, magical
thing that men can be friends. We're not just talking
about the intimacy of female friendships and portraying them very
(47:57):
differently in this show versus other shows. They are much
closer to me. All of these relationships that we're watching,
and Queen Charlotte are imperfect. Her marriage to George, it's
an imperfect relationship, and we're watching somebody figure out how
to make an imperfect relationship work. We're watching Lady Danbury
do the same thing, and we're watching Ladanbury do the
same thing in her friendship with Queen Charlotte, where there's
(48:18):
huge power imbalance All of these relationships that we're looking
at are imperfect relationships, and yet people have found ways
to step past all those things that you know, generally
like everything needs to be perfect to have a happy ending.
None of these stories have a happy ending, but they
figure out how to make them work, because that's what
real life and real love and real friendships really are about.
Speaker 3 (48:37):
And you don't take the ending into consideration in life.
You just take the process, you know. So it's all
we all talk about happy endings, and I Checob movies
because our happy endings because then you leave and you
go home and you deal with the crap you have
at home. But it's the process and how the relationships evolve.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
Yeah, I mean, watching Charlotte and George navigate what is
obviously we already know the end when we begin, by
the way, and obviously a very damaged relationship fraught with
a lot of disappointments. And then you're watching Brimsley and Reynolds,
which their relationships are fraught with all of these barriers
and walls and rules about, you know, how they can
(49:17):
be together. And Lady Danberry who's trapped in a marriage
that is not at all anything that she wants and
how it brings her to a place where she understands
that she doesn't want a relationship at all. Like for me,
all of that is that was refreshing to see well,
and it's fun to work on. It's fun to write
because you get to show. You know, there's a lot
of fairy tale in Bridgerton, and I didn't want Queen
Charlotte to be a fairy tale.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
So Miss Claudia on Instagram asks Shanda, what are your
thoughts on the perceived issues of fantasizing history, specifically when
it comes to the portrayal of people of color during
the eras the Bridge Averse spans, and she also asks
if there's an issue of erasure on some level.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
So I find that to be a fascinating question, mainly
because we've made clear that the Bridge of Verse is
its own world. We've been very clear that we're not
standing in actual history. We're talking about, you know, Queen
Charlotte is Bridgerton's Queen Charlotte story, which works for me
on the same level as saying, you know, I watched
(50:19):
some shows in the Marveling Universe and I feel really
uncomfortable that we're erasing the history of robots or whatever.
Do you know what I mean? Like, it's if we're
talking about telling story in fiction. There is science fiction
obviously that you know, puts zombies in the middle of
the Nazi Germany or whatever, and nobody asks them about
that in the service of their storytelling. We have a
(50:42):
universe that we have created, and we have not actually
added science fiction to what. We haven't thrown random things
into it. We took a piece of history and we
extrapolated what would the story have been like if we
had gone in this direction, if the world had gone
in this direction, if Queen Charlotte had been a woman
of color. I don't think that we're a racing history
because I'm not trying to tell atory lesson. I think
when you're watching a biopic or a docu series or whatever,
(51:05):
that's there's a real responsibility there. But we were telling
the story of Queen Charlotte from Bridgerton, which is not
the same as telling the story of Queen Charlotte as
she stood in history, and I should hope we're not
a racing history. My goal, by the way, is that
you then go back and spend a lot of time
reading and trying to figure out where everything lays down
and what was portrayed you know, from the actual history,
(51:27):
and what wasn't and what you can learn, Like I
spent a lot of time tracing the slavery timeline in
terms of these people and what it meant, because I
became fascinated by like what was actually there and what
was going on. Also, you know, I'm just not going
to tell stories where I'm not standing at the center,
where people who look like me aren't a part of
that story.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
I wonder for the both of you, how long you
have felt like you have the space to dream up
whatever you want and to just put it out there
for your own joy and not necessarily for the response.
And if that's even a thing.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
We only make shows we'd like to watch right that
say that's our thing.
Speaker 3 (52:10):
Yeah, I can't work on anything that I don't want
to see or I don't want to say, or or
it's something that I don't see somewhere that needs to
be seen.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
We talk about this a lot, like our responsibility is
entertainment and storytelling. Our responsibility is to tell you a
story and entertaining. Our responsibility is not to tell you
a story that you necessarily are going to agree with
or reflects the story, because I always say, if I
told you the story that you wanted to hear, then
I wouldn't be telling you a story. I would just
be sort of regurgitating back to you you. I think
(52:43):
it's so important to tell people stories that challenge them
and challenge the way they like to perceive the world
or the way they're looking at things, or how they
feel things should be portrayed. And that's not an active
activism or anything. We're literally just telling good story that
makes us happy.
Speaker 3 (52:58):
It's just, seriously, stuff I want to watch.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
If we were not making shows we want to watch,
then there's no point in making shows.
Speaker 3 (53:04):
And that's been true since the very beginning.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
Exactly all we know how to do is to make
shows we want to watch. That's literally always been our
only role.
Speaker 3 (53:10):
We will only make shows to watch and something we
haven't done before.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
Right, we can't be something you've done before because we
get poored. But I get it, Like I understand in
terms of representation, where if you have not been represented enough,
every representation becomes the representation, which to me is always
not a sign of that show didn't represent you correctly.
Like if you watch a show and you're like, I
didn't like how they portrayed this character. That show didn't
represent you correctly. It's a sign that there are not
(53:36):
enough stories being told that represent you. There's just not
enough stories being told where you can see yourself. It's
not any one storyteller's job to represent you. It's that
there should be such a diversity of storytelling that you
get to see yourself in a million different places. Because
I've never heard a white man go I don't feel
correctly represented on television, like no, because they see themselves everywhere.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
Find yourself somewhere if you don't like your stelf and one,
you'll find yourself in something else. And to your point,
and that's yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Oh, we think about that when in terms characters, A
call everything about it when I'm to women, we think
about it when terms of core presentation, like we're really
trying to tell stories about humanity here like life.
Speaker 3 (54:20):
Very often there's way more going on than you think.
And that's the other great thing is is people surprise you.
Sometimes they don't, but sometimes they do, and sometimes discovering
their reasons as to why they are the way they
are without it getting all trinky, but is why the
(54:41):
joy of this is being able to on some level,
I can always relate to Like people go who's your
favorite character, and I'm like, well, right today it's this,
But tomorrow I'm going to relate to Queen Charlotte in
a different way. And tomorrow the next day I'm Reynolds man,
I'm having a Reynolds day. That's the fun part is
depending on where your head is to choose your own
adventure sort of situation.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
I agree this is from Chaotic Guitar Again, they asked
about a particular scene. They said, I found the scene
where Charlotte asks Brimsley why he never married very sad.
Do you think that was in aha moment for Charlotte
that she actually never asked Brimsley personal questions before? And
then on another occasion, I have heard the question why
(55:24):
was that conversation happening through the mirror?
Speaker 2 (55:27):
Well, let's talk about the fact that how often are
she and Brimsley staring one another in the face. That's
not very often. He's always five paces behind her, which
is one of the reasons why the mirror works so well.
One but two, Look, it was definitely an AHA moment
for Queen Charlotte. I love Queen Charlotte. I love that character.
I loved writing her. But one of my favorite things
about her is she's the Queen. She's inherently selfish. Everything
(55:51):
about her world has been built for her. So it
has certainly never once occurred to her to ask Brimsley
personal questions about himself, do you know what I mean?
And that doesn't make her a bad person. That makes
her the Queen. And I've really enjoyed getting to to
layer that in. I love that moment when Agatha says,
I've been you know, I've been tending to issues from
(56:12):
my husband's, you know, passing an estate.
Speaker 1 (56:15):
It is good to be home. I have missed your company.
Speaker 2 (56:18):
Tell me what if I missed while I was away.
Speaker 1 (56:21):
As for the ton, I have no gossip of consequence
to share. I have been occupied.
Speaker 2 (56:27):
Attending to the estate and the wake of the death
of my husband. Of course, you are mourning a great loss.
Speaker 1 (56:34):
I'm the children.
Speaker 2 (56:38):
Is there anything I can do, Queen Charlotte, It's like,
oh yes, And then she's like, oh wait, is there
anything I can do? Like it's never even occurred to
her that there's anything she could do, because her whole
world is geared to be about her, so yeah, I
don't think it's ever hurts her. And I love the
look on the actress Golda's face when Brimsley gives his
answer and then he walks away, because she has a
(56:58):
very real sense that he has sacrificed as much as
she has in that moment and knows that they can
never discuss it. I don't think you can maintain a
distance between the two of them with if they spent
all their time speaking intimately. There are two pieces to
this I think are really interesting. Is that he says
to her about her daughters, they could not leave you
there trapped in time, but neither could hear I mean.
(57:21):
And that's the point.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
Oh, I'm really happy an oh moment.
Speaker 2 (57:30):
It's why he understand. If you watch the whole show
just from the perspective of just Brimsley, I think you
see a lot of things that maybe you wouldn't have
seen before.
Speaker 1 (57:38):
I never thought Brimsley thinking of himself as one of
oh okay, but I guess I did. But I just
didn't package it like that.
Speaker 2 (57:47):
He's been with her longer than her children, He's been
with her longer than her dogs. He's been with her
longer than anybody in her life. They have the most
He's been with her longer than her husband, more intimately
than her husband. They have the most intimate relationship that
she has in her world, that is her relationship.
Speaker 3 (58:02):
With him, and by far the most man hours.
Speaker 2 (58:05):
Yeah, and they spend all their time together. Like she says,
we'll spend the rest of our lives together at the
beginning of the first end of the first episode so angrily.
The reality of it is is It's true. They spend
their lives together. They have the marriage. Thank you everybody
so much for paying attention and watching Queen Charlotte A
Bridgington Story, listening to the podcast, a Queen Charlotte, A
Bridgeton Story, reading the book Queen Charlotte A bridget and Story.
(58:26):
Betsy and I enjoy talking to you, don't we, Betsy.
Speaker 3 (58:29):
We definitely enjoy talking to you, and for me to
thank you so much for watching, reading, listening, and especially
for joining us for this podcast.
Speaker 2 (58:41):
Giving us an opportunity to talk to each other about
a project that we both.
Speaker 3 (58:45):
Love, which I will always take an opportunity to do.
Speaker 1 (58:48):
Yep, As we draw a curtain on this season, I
cannot help but feel overwhelmed with the need to show
my gratitude to Shonda Rhymes, Betsy Bears, and the entire
team at Shondaland. We extend a heartfelt thank you for
opening the doors of the court and granting us access
(59:11):
to the profound parts of each artist involved in bringing
Queen Charlotte to life. Before we wrap, I must acknowledge
Tom Verica one last time, an into real piece of
the puzzle you has lent his vision as a director
in shaping the visual world of Queen Charlotte and the
culture on set and together, Shonda, Betsy and Tom have
(59:33):
formed a synergy that's brought this series to life right
And I know you're with me in applauding their talent
for assembling a bewitching blend of cast and crew that
all gave us Queen Charlotte. It's really been fun, y'all.
This has been such a great rop through the season
with the cast and to hang out and chat with
remarkable artists who continue to inspire and ignite our imaginations.
(59:57):
Queen Charlotte a Bridgeton story is just one test them
into the growing legacy of Shondaland and the enchantment of storytelling.
The collective brilliance is wh Queen Charlotte. The official podcast
is executive produced by Sandy Bailey, Alex Alcea, Lauren Homan,
Akeia mcnight, and me Gabby Collins. Our producer and editor
(01:00:21):
is Tarry Harrison. Subscribe to the podcast anywhere you get
your favorite shows. Get the book I'm a Crispy Turn
the page, smell the binding kind of Queen, but you
can download it until we meet again. Maybe all find
inspiration in the grace, elegance and audacity of Queen Charlotte.
Thanks again for joining us. Queen Charlotte. The Official podcast
(01:00:50):
is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Queen Charlotte. The official podcast is a production of Shondaland
Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio. Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to
the final episode of our Reflections on Queen Charlotte of
(00:23):
Bridgeton Story. I am your humble and honored host, and
we're gathered here today for a truly noteworthy conversation with
two distinguished guests. That's why you're here right today. We
have the immense privilege of sharing time with creator Shonda
Rhymes and executive producer Betsy Bears as we reflect on
(00:44):
this remarkable series. I'm filled with gratitude for the opportunity
to pick the brains of these two brilliant minds and
to delve deep into their process. And I gotta say
it was really fun to watch them rediscover in real
time the juice that got them hooked on telling this
story in the first place. Shonda and Betsy, acclaimed producers
(01:06):
storytellers in their own right, have captivated global audiences with
their unparalleled ability to breathe life into characters that are bizarre, royal,
untouchable in that way, and yet firmly planted on earth.
All right, So here we are, we are finally taking
your questions to creator Shonda Rhymes and executive producer Betsy Beers.
(01:32):
So without further ado, let's just get right into it.
For me, and I think for a lot of fans,
I am most fascinated by your working relationship and how
that has flourished over the years, changed Morphed became what
it is. So I'm really curious about how the two
of you work together, and I know that this project
(01:52):
was special for a few reasons. Could you tell us
about that and then if you could really paint a
picture of what it looks like to be working together.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
It's a funny question because at this point we're so
used to working together by also not working together, if
that makes.
Speaker 3 (02:08):
Any sense, that totally makes sense.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
You know, we get together and we discuss projects. In
the writing process, I'm always talking to Betsy about what
I'm thinking or what I'm considering, or how it's going
to work. And at the same time, Betsy's sort of
working to make sure production is prepped the way it
needs to be prepped and understands the vision that I'm
trying to put out there, a job that gets easy
or anything for all of us. Because of Tom, since
(02:30):
Tom's also part of our permanent little group now, which
is really nice. But you know, usually I'm writing and
either telling Betsy it's terrible, or sending her pages and
telling or I think it's great, and try telling me
what she thinks. And then when there's a script, we
sort of hit the road talking about production and stuff.
And at this point I don't have to say to Betsy,
here's the vision that I have for Queen Charlotte, because
(02:51):
Betsy already has that vision too. We've worked together for
so long that we just see things the same way, now,
don't you think, Betsy?
Speaker 3 (02:59):
I agree with that? And the great thing is we're
sounding boards for each other, and especially what I like
to feel like is we have conversations about stuff or
what's interesting about stuff, or we'll start with like, I
think this point is interesting, and her big brain will
like spew out some amazing sort of what ifs, and
then we can start with the what ifs and push
(03:22):
them in lots of different directions. And one of the
things I love to do, and I've done my whole
life in this job, is I'll drive in four billion
directions just for the hell of it. And then it's
a little bit like a buffet. You can, you can
kind of pitch with every directly. But I don't really
have to do that with Shanda anymore because we've been
doing it for so long. She always hits the ground running,
(03:45):
and with this project especially.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
I knew what it was.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
She knew exactly what it was, and the first conversation
we had she said, this is what I feel this is,
and that's what it was. Yeah, I mean I think
it went through less quote unquote development. I'm making those
little annoying quote sounds with my fingers so anybody knows
what I'm doing. But there was no real development of this.
This was, I would say, like the unfurling of your brain.
Speaker 2 (04:13):
And it had been like it had been sitting in
there for a while or something.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Yes, it happened, But I have to say you also,
you very often percolate without percolating.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Yes, that's very true.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Wait, what do you mean.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Well, it's like I say, it's like coffee. It's like
in the back of her head something. The grounds are
in there, you put the water in and it's just
sort of percolating back there.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Like ideas just are sort of building, right.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
They're just sort of building and sometimes we'll talk about
a bunch of different things, just randomly, because she's my
favorite person to cal and go like, did you just
read this thing? It really annoyed me? Or do you
know what's amazing about life? And then somehow or another,
she's already formed some sort of story in her head
that speaks to all the questions I had. True, it's
(04:59):
kind of like magic, except really hard work.
Speaker 2 (05:02):
The hard thing about is working together for so long
is that we can no longer explain how we work together.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
It's true, that was the biggest load of garbage that
just come out of my mouth.
Speaker 2 (05:11):
But it's so hard to talk about because it's so
it's literally the way we've been living life for twenty
years now, so it's very hard to describe to somebody
what breathing feels like.
Speaker 3 (05:22):
It's true. And my favorite moment sometimes is there have
been points. Do you remember if there was one point
long time ago where we're in a meeting and it
was a it was an incredibly tortured, not particularly productive
meeting in which there was an executive spewing things. Yes, that,
and there was a moment she looked at me and
she said, can you translate right.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
I looked at it. I was like, what are they saying?
They're not sucking creatively.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
It said a lot of blat of blue quietly, and
she was like, Okay, this makes absolutely no sense. But
so there's a certain amount of translation. But even more
so at this point, we'll just like each other and
go to go do you know the thing that happened
at the time when we did that thing? And I'll go, yeah,
I don't, Yeah, I totally do.
Speaker 2 (06:00):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
Any long term relationship that you're really close, where you've
been through a lot of experiences, I think probably you'd
talk to anybody who'd say, yeah, I'm one of the
things I value most is the closest not to have
to talk.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Yes, yeah, Yeah, it's funny. I was just saying to
my dad. Sometimes you just can be in a room
with someone and not say anything exactly and not necessarily
like the Violet and Danbury moment. But you know, so
you mentioned what ifs. I'm wondering if there were any
particular what ifs that blew your mind, Betsy for this
(06:39):
particular project. Was there a what if early on that
sent you in forty eight billion directions?
Speaker 3 (06:46):
I think with this project specifically, there are fewer what
ifs that I was coming up with because with this project,
so much was already in her head. You know, I
think sometimes we'll be dealing just sort of with a
world and what place more of a what iflick? What
if you actually dug into this particular character. We talked
about this thing which is bothering. I always started, and
(07:07):
I think Shawanda does too, with what am I feeling
or how am I thinking? Or what's in my brain?
But I don't think there was as much of that
with this because it was something that emerged, I think
fully grown from her brain.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
There was something about watching Golda play Queen Charlotte that
made me begin to imagine a world in which that
character started out and began her journey.
Speaker 1 (07:28):
One of the questions that we received was if Shanda
you actually when you are percolating, are you journaling and
writing or do you have post it notes everywhere? Or
do you just talk out loud? What does that look
like for you?
Speaker 2 (07:44):
Yeah, none of the above. I'm not journaling or writing,
or putting post it notes or talking out loud. Generally,
when Betsy means like something's percolating in the back of
my brain for real. I'll be going about my whole
dayly life doing something completely different. Sometimes I'm even writing
another project or working on another project. But the story,
the idea for something is in the back of my
brain and then one day I wake up and I'm like, okay,
(08:04):
I'm ready to write it down now. And when I
write it down, it's pretty much fully formed. Like I'm
not a person who turned through drafts and like is
pained in that way.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
It's more pained.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
Yeah no, but you know, like writing is, it can
be a painful process, but I'm not I don't have
that process. I either know what I'm writing or I don't,
and if I don't, then I'm not writing it yet.
Speaker 3 (08:25):
It's still purklating, that's exactly right. It's it's nothing, you see,
it's just back there. And you know, when the bread's baked,
it comes out of the oven, so it's but it's
I think I'm going to use a lot of cooking metaphors,
but I do. I think it's it's funny because we
always sort of say, like when something going to be ready,
(08:46):
It's like, well, it's not ready till it's ready, and
when it's ready, it'll come out and it will be
what you see on film. And to be honest, that
was true with The Gray's Anatomy and that's true with this.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
A lot of writers, I think, write and then they
put a draft out and then you have to get
notes and there's a lot of feedback and a lot
of changes and a lot of molding, and I think
I do all that in my head, and then whatever
we end up turning out as a page is usually
what we end up shooting.
Speaker 3 (09:13):
Yeah, I mean ninety nine point nine percent of the time.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Yeah, that makes me think about some of the things
that are that become what ifsen what happened for the audience.
Like my first time through watching, I kept hinging myself
onto this idea of the great experiment, and I felt
like there was enough room for the audience for myself
(09:36):
to just wonder exactly what you all were getting at
with some of the ideas and concepts that emerged in
Queen Charlotte. And I'm wondering if you actually birth it
that way where it may not seem like a complete
or like there is more to be unpacked but you
don't even know yet what that is is. No, it
(09:59):
doesn't work Fad no, So you know, like like the
she knows.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
You you know, I don't know how to explain it,
but you just know and then you write it down.
I wish, I wish that there was a way to
bottle it because then I could do it much easier.
But you do, you know, and then you write it down.
So some of these things, you know. The Great Experiment
was something that I started talking about from the beginning
in terms of how we were going to build this
world and tell the story.
Speaker 3 (10:21):
And I think also it was connected to something that
was you know, in the Bridgerton universe, was something that
you felt incredibly strongly about, Shonda, and really wanted wanted
to create your own articulation of that.
Speaker 2 (10:34):
Right because it's given one line. It's given like one
line or two lines in the Bridgerton story. You know,
their love united nation, and that's great, But I was like,
I need there to be a world that works with
this inside the Bridge reverse for this to work.
Speaker 1 (10:48):
One of the really nice things I heard from the
cast was being dropped into this world where everybody works differently,
and so there's so much to glean and there's so
much to share. It sounds like a really great thing.
But there's something that you just said too that makes
me think of one of these questions. If you know
(11:09):
everything going into putting out this work, you then know
the answer to what happened to Reynolds.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Of course I didn't.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Everybody wants to know. I know what happened to Reynolds,
and I'm not.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
Ready to tell anybody what that answer is.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Perhaps this is good, perhaps perhaps it is bad.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
I told a complete story. I left you with some questions.
I think those questions are vital and important, but I'm
not telling the answers yet.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
We won't know what happened to Reynolds.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
We no, no, And.
Speaker 2 (11:45):
You know, for me, I feel like, if you watched
it correctly, you do know what happened. It's very interesting,
Like to me, it's very obvious what happened. There's such
a powerful moment where you understand Brimsley explains it all.
I'm fascinated by people thinking that he died, which is
not true, or that there's something like Brimsley explains what happened.
Speaker 1 (12:08):
And if you watched it correctly, that's okay.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
That's not that's not a fair sentence. Okay, you watched
it correctly is.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
Not a fair sentence was that was a tiny bit judgy.
Speaker 2 (12:19):
Yeah, it's judge. It's true. There's no incorrect way to watch.
You're so right, there's no incorrect way to watch. You
know what it is in my mind, like I was,
I'm on a very straight path. So to me, A
plus B makes C plus y and so I'm always
amazed when people truly like and I kind of love it.
It's part of the creative process. Take like they say,
A plus B equals Q, and they see a completely
(12:41):
different world around, which sometimes is fascinating to me. And
I'm able to take it in creatively and build on it.
And sometimes I'm like, that doesn't make any sense to
what I was thinking at all. So that's the beauty
of it. I also have this thing where I truly
believe that what I write and what I intend and
the way it's received can be two different things. And
that's okay.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
I was just going to ask you both if that
is okay. Oh yeah, Patsy. The last time I've spoke
with you, you said, you know, you put the thing out.
You put it out, it's out. And that is a
skill in itself to be as a producer, to just
let it go, Let it breathe on its own.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Oh, it doesn't belong to you anymore. That's the thing
is it's it's can you cleave it to your bosom,
you know, for four billion years? And then you you
craft it and love it to the best that you can,
and then you put it out into the world and
then you're onto something else too that you want to
(13:35):
That's another story you want to tell.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
My oldest sister called me up and yelled at me
for about twenty minutes about the fact that I didn't
explain what happened to Reynolds. So yeah, and she was
so angry and she wants to know and I wasn't
telling her, and she's not pleased with me right now.
But that's okay.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Hey, that's the breaks.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah, we'll be right back with more insights about Queen
Charlotte A Bridgeton Story from executive producer Betsy Beers and
creator Shonda Rhymes.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
Hi, it's Betsy Beers. You're listening to Queen Charlotte A
Bridgerton Story the official podcast Let's go into the Steep Dive.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
So I love to know when I'm wrong about things.
Cyrus is my all time favorite character. But one of
my absolute favorites is Eli Pope from Scandal and Too.
I tried to connect the dots to him across the
body of work of Shondaland all the time I felt
like there was a little of Eli talking to live
(14:45):
when I heard Lord Danburry talking to Agatha, and maybe
it was a stretch, but I was wondering, Shonda, where
that voice comes from.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
So here's what's fascinating to me. Eli speaks from the
pain of the existence of being a powerful man who
is invisible. To me. The person who actually holds his
voice the most is Lady Danberry. Is Agatha. Agatha speaks
of the pain of being a powerful, invisible person who
is not seen. And herman, her husband, who is a
(15:19):
very sweet, complex, difficult man who she has great affection
and sympathy for no matter what, is in a lot
of ways, her damsel in distress that she is rescuing.
I mean, you have to really see it that way.
Papa Pope and Agatha Danbury, they stand in the same
place in power. Poor Hermann hasn't had a chance.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
I see that now, I see that, and I hear
that now I think I was taking it at face
value maybe.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
There's almost nothing that Hermann says. You have to remember
that she's the puppet master of everything good that happens
to him, Oh my goodness, and she very quietly allows
him to pretend that he has more power than he
does because she understands how painful his life has been.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Cyril spoke about that too. He said that he poured
the parts of himself that understood being marginalized and still
needing to be tender to those around him and not
having the time or space to do that. And I
guess maybe that's what I was connecting, Like, that's interesting.
(16:27):
When Eli was calling Olivia he concubine. I was like, yes,
that is the thing.
Speaker 2 (16:33):
He was calling it as he saw her behavior, which
is different than treating her a certain way. Do you
see the difference, Like he's expecting her to be an empowered,
three dimensional woman. Okay, Herman's not expecting that. Herman believes
that Agatha is nothing more than a quiet little wife.
I mean, there was a lot of talk about like
(16:55):
the sex scenes, for instance, and I was like, she's
People were like it's a and I was like, it's
not assault. It's a man whose ad never considered the
idea that a woman could ever enjoy herself sexually, because
that's not a definition of sex for a man. But
b it's never incurred to Agatha either, because this is
the only man she's ever known. She's bored out of
her mind. So you know those scenes where she seems
(17:16):
to be like making lists and thinking while they're in
bed together, She's bored out of her mind. She finds
it boring. And I kind of felt like if every
woman who really was bored and sort of over having
sex with her husband called it assault, we'd be in
a whole different world right now, Like that's what that is.
She's in a long term, sort of very boring, dead
marriage where she's never been awakened to anything. Her garden
(17:39):
has never bloomed, as we've.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
Said, like hello, hello, garden.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
But she feels a great deal of affection for him
because she sees how badly he is treated by the
world and how invisible he is, so he thinks he
has power but he does.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
Not, and she sees how hard he takes it because
it feels to me like he's a man constantly who's
being disappointed. Yes, And she spends so much time trying
to mitigate that disappointment, and that's a huge part of
what she does. And that's the thing that I think
is so amazing about that relationship is.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
She takes care of him as best she can.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
And she also understands as she gets more into the
politics of this show, the deprivation that has existed for him.
Speaker 2 (18:27):
There will be no ball trust and angle Joy in
front of me. Never let me grasp it. You are
every bit as good as they are. You have to
(18:58):
understand that all the women are women who use society's
belief about who they should be and the positions they
should occupy. They use those positions and those beliefs against
the people to their own advantage. They're demanding of the
dowager princess, like who is George's new doctor? And she says,
I do not remember names, I'm female, and they I'll
(19:18):
go of course, which is she says it because that's
what they believe, and if they're stupid enough to believe it,
she's going to work it to her advantage. To me,
these are the women using the tools they have around
them to their best advantages.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Princess Augusta is one of my favorite characters for that
reason and me too. Oh my goodness, Betsy. And I
think I would say top three scenes for me is
the pair Brandy scene. I think anyone who I've spoken
with knows that is one of my favorite scenes. And
I don't remember if I asked you, Betsy, but I'm
(19:53):
gonna ask you now. Did you ever have a pair
Brandy moment with anyone early in your.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Career over something later? The brand?
Speaker 1 (20:02):
Yeh? Did someone pore you the pair brand? Betsy?
Speaker 3 (20:04):
I'm not sure that there was that much bytuperation, but
in terms of being in a situation where I needed
to be a more worthy adversary, yeah, I mean I
would say that there have been moments definitely with the
people that I would call probably the politicians of our job,
but usually it was you take the gloves off and
you sit there for a second, then you put the
(20:26):
gloss back on. Yeah, as opposed to I don't tend
to have total meltdowns under those situations because yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Very different from Lady Danberry.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Because and she had no one else to go to.
I don't think I've ever had that sense of total
full isolation that that character has, which is one of
the things I love about that scene. The other thing
I love that that scene is how quickly Agatha is
able to pull herself back together again. But the combination
of I don't want to lose my adversary from Augusta,
(20:59):
but also that is the way that she can show
her feelings towards her, and she can't show her feelings
towards her by saying, you know what, I'm so glad
you're in this world because you go get them girlfriend.
She has to say, that's not the same veneration, but
she has gigantic commence of admiration for her, And I
would say, unfortunately, in a lot of these situations I've
(21:21):
been in, I have not had it must as much
admiration as I've had, and it doesn't happen a lot.
But to your point, I think occasionally a situation pops
up where it's politics and you handle it. This is
more long waited way of saying, not exactly like this, No,
but I know what it's like to sit across the
table and bargain with a smile and a drink. Ah.
Speaker 1 (21:45):
Yeah, I of course have glamorized that in my mind,
and I wonder the same for you. Shonda, who poured
pear brandy for you early in your career, if you
had a moment got that.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
I don't know that I've ever had a moment like that,
but I think I not in And I want to
say this correctly because you know, I love her. I
was raised by a Princess Augusta in the best possible way,
meaning that I feel like I was raised at the
feet of somebody who would pour somebody the prayer brandy
and say get it together. So having been raised by
a woman like that who had those expectations, you know,
(22:20):
I have great admiration for Princess Augusta and what she's
trying to accomplish here for herself, and what she's accomplished
given the world that she's you know, stuck in. And
that's one of my favorite scenes that I've written. And
what made it so great was to get to write
something like that and then to get the footage back
and see the astonishingly amazing performances those actors gave. It's
really exciting when that happens when you write something. I mean,
(22:42):
because I'm not on set, I write something, I send
it off Tom's there, and to have it come back
and be more than what you dreamed is so fantastic.
Speaker 3 (22:51):
I think Actually, that's why that's such a hard question
to answer, is because there's so many layers to that scene. Yeah,
because I can say, have I ever sat across the
table from theoretically an adversary? Have I ever set across
the table from somebody where I showed my vulnerability and
they said keep it? Every single thing is in that scene.
I mean, that scene has every single stage of a relationship,
(23:13):
a friendship, an adversarial relationship. It's like, so it's almost like,
have I ever Yeah, I've had all of those moments.
What's incredible to me is not one scene.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
No, right, it's never in one scene.
Speaker 3 (23:25):
What's someone like that?
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I mean, it's really cool to have this this scene
between the two of them, because you're right, I love that,
Betsy said. It shows her affection for Agatha and her respect,
and honestly, for me, what was important was the concept
that they were in that moment. She was making absolutely
clear that this is the only equals she's got right now.
You know, She's like, don't you fall down on the job,
(23:47):
because if you do, then I'm alone. Exactly, if you're
still standing, then I'm still standing. If you're down then
I have nothing, and I thought that was really powerful
and important.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
So I'm going to jump to a quick question from
fans audience about parenting. Okay, Charif at Sharif Underscore, Scott
Underscore on Instagram asks and there's my baby. Does Lady
Danberry love her children?
Speaker 2 (24:14):
Yes, Lady Danberry absolutely loves her children. I think Lady
Danberry loves her children the way women of that era
often love their children, which is somebody else raises your children.
Their children are absolutely being raised by somebody else until
they're useful or interesting. I mean that is flat out
literally just how it was done. So if we're living
in that world, I mean, it's funny because the actress,
(24:37):
you know, Arthma came to me a lot and said
like she a good mother, and I was like, she's
a fantastic mother. She's hired the best nanny governess she
can find, and she's they're fed and clean and no
one beats them, and she treats them, you know, make
sure they have fresh air and sunshine. But the reality
of it is is even when you read all those
books about regency period and Georgian period, the concept of
(24:57):
motherhood as we know it is a very modern concept.
It's a very modern concept, this idea. If you're walking
around carrying a baby on your hip, you are a
servant in that period in time period, I'm a servant
right now. We are, I know, we're all sort I
was just about to say that you took the words
to Adam children. I think part of the issue here
(25:19):
is because people are so immersed in the world of
Violet Bridgerton. Yes, there's this weird sort of expectation that
socially that was the norm and the whole point of
Violet Bridgerton, the whole point of Bridgerton's is their family
is slowly abnormal. The kids sit at dinner, they talk
to the children. She likes her family, they hang out.
Speaker 3 (25:35):
She wants them to get married for love, right. I
mean that that is the opposite hell.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
How any child was raised back then. Violet is a
very different kind of mother because she was happy, but
also because she had her husband let her do what
she wanted. There's no way you could be but like
a lady in waiting to the queen, and what are
you running around playing paddycake with your children. It just
wasn't done, you know. It's why one of the since
I made very clear that when Queen Charlotte had her child,
(26:03):
we see the baby, we know that she spent time
with the baby, but that's it. Like there's no babies
running around, and when you see these surly adults, you're like,
how do they get that way? That to me was
very interesting.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
Yeah, oh and I guess that. Yeah, that scene we
see a quick, quick, maybe fifteen seconds of Violet with
her grand babies and that.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Yeah, but see Violet. Yeah, Violet is a very different
kind of mother. Yeah, Violet is on the floor playing
with her grand babies. That brings her joy. I don't
think you'd ever see Agatha Danburg on the floor playing
with her grandbabies, and not because she doesn't love her children,
but because culturally, for all of them in that period
of time, that is not what you do. No, Lady
Featherington wasn't around playing with her grand babies. Like it's
(26:47):
just Violet's mother wasn't playing with her babies. Like that's
not how that works.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
That's so interesting. I asked Ker if he felt who
played Lord Ledger. He felt like his character helped our
audiences understand the way Violet loves and the way Violet
led her family later on, and he felt very much.
(27:13):
So would you say that was intentional?
Speaker 2 (27:17):
No, I purposely wrote him to be this man. I
mean he calls her brains and beauty like I wrote
this man, because how do you turn out to be
a woman like Violet? How do you turn out to
be a woman like Violet who can recognize love in
a man like Edmund and have that life? Violet had
to have a spectacular father, especially considering that I needed
her to have a not so spectacular mother. I very
(27:38):
much wanted you to understand that she knew what that
kind of love was, and that's why she treats her
children the way she does.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
And I think she also picks up on the fact
that her mother and father are very, very very different.
So focusing on, yes, this little bit of longing in
her father, I think also contributes to her desire to
find real love.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
That's a beautiful way to put it.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
She sees his loneliness, then I think she both gets
what is it like to be loved by a wonderful man,
but why it's so important to have a real partner
as opposed to somebody who you're making excuses for, which
is what I always sort of feel like with the
two of them is he's always sort of going like, yeah,
that's your mom, and yet that's your mom.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yet I have so much compassion for Lady Ledger because
when I write, I have to have a passion everybody.
But I have compassion for Lady Ledger because if you
look at it, she's in a house with a team
of two. They are a team, and she is on
the outside. And everything that she believes they treat as
if she is wrong and bad. And really all she's
doing is standing in tradition. She's behaving in all the
(28:48):
traditional ways, and they treat her as if she is
a joke. And that has got to be difficult for her.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
I feel like that is so ripe or right now
in so many facets of life and politics, and that
is fascinating.
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
And Katie Braben, who plays Lady Leger, was she just man?
Did she deliver? Oh?
Speaker 2 (29:16):
She's wondering.
Speaker 3 (29:17):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Violent.
Speaker 2 (29:20):
The Lady does not stretch her neck like a dry
I want to see the Queen.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
The Queen has not yet made appearance.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
She behaves like a street urchin. She will humiliate us.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
She is perfect, she will bring us nothing that accolades.
I told you she's not yet ready to be out
in society. She is more than ready.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Betsy. Can you talk a little about casting Katie for
that role and your affinity for that character and what
that character represents too.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
You know, I don't remember that being one of those
characters where we saw tapes and tapes and tapes and
taps and taps. I just remember that we all saw
her and she had this absolutely perfect combination of there's
a warmth there. Yeah, she's got real depth. She doesn't
feel she never felt when she read like she was
playing at archly or over emphasizing. She gave her humanity, right,
(30:13):
she gave a humanity and I could see her also.
I mean one of the things obviously that was important
is as we're casting these people who are younger and
younger versions, you want to believe the bloodline. So it's
Violet came out of that person and that face and
that so there was always a physicality to it, which
was key. So she had this incredible combination of being
(30:35):
looking like she could be Violet Bridgerton's mom and also
just being a lovely mannered, excellent actress.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
She had a three dimensionality to her. She was able
to make that out.
Speaker 3 (30:48):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (30:48):
Not hateful. I mean, you know what I mean. You
don't have to like her, but I could see who
she was when she was eighteen and she got married, Like,
you can see who she was and how she became
who she is. Well, she's certainly never been allowed to
do that much thinking like it's very stressful for her
to be out thought like. That doesn't make it. What's
this girl doing?
Speaker 3 (31:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Yeah, I love the moment in the end when they're
at the ball and Violet's like this lady done me, Hello,
Lady Danberry. And her mother's like she she'll ruin us,
and the father's like she won't. But you understand this
woman's fear because all she has, like all the other
mamas on the marriage mark, is the ability to get
her daughter married to have social success. And if this
(31:27):
child turns out to what she did, right, if it's
childhood out in all these untraditional ways that her father
is supporting, she cannot imagine they're being social success.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Oh my god, that's true. Right, you'll have Eloise on
your hand, yea. Right.
Speaker 2 (31:39):
She's like, this is a terrible idea. I'm gonna have
a spinster for a daughter. This is a nightmare, Oh.
Speaker 1 (31:43):
Elise, Yeah, So why do you think both Charlotte and
Lady Danberry were cold towards their children in later life?
Would you even say they were cold?
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Now? I don't. I don't say they were cold. For
me that if we're going to talk about motherhood, let's
talk for a minute about Queen Charlotte, because for me,
those moments when her children are like, you know, you
are terrible, and she just can't even make herself explain
why she was a good mother because her job, her
whole job, is to make sure that this line continues,
(32:20):
like that is her job. And she's had all these children,
and she's raised them all, and she's put them all
in the perfect positions, and she's even indulged them for
years obviously because they're all dating whoors and actresses. She's
even indulged them all and all she needs from there's
one thing, and she's tried to let them be their
own people, but they failed miserably. And so to have
(32:40):
them tell her that she's a horrible mother, I felt
was such a hurtful moment for her. But it's also
not untrue because you have that moment when Brimsley says
to her, we've all only ever served one person, like
she's solely served the king and the kingdom and what's
necessary for that, which means you can't necessarily be a
mommy when you're doing all those And so to her,
(33:01):
she's been an excellent mother. She's had fifteen babies, she's
lost two, she's allowed them to live their lives. She's
given them everything they've ever desired. All she's asking is
one stupid thing. And to them, you know, they're busy
yelling at her for holding up a nation.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
I felt the children and you could tell me if
I'm wrong, Betsy too, if that. They were like, but
but mama, queen, you're centering yourselves in our life. And
I felt like that was such a theme for talking
about adult child parent relationships as well, whether that's a
(33:34):
blood parent child relationship or if it's someone that you
work with who is like who you revere or something
like that.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
But wait, does she have an option other than to
center herself. I mean, she's not just herself, she's England.
She's the future of the royal crown. Like, like, what
are they whining about?
Speaker 3 (33:55):
I know exactly what you mean, but when you look
at what you do so brilliantly is you always see
both sides of the coin. What I loved about it
is it's not just the crown. You gave everything up
to that man, so it's not just to our father,
who they have no relationship with to to a large degree,
who they haven't seen. So really it's a little bit
(34:15):
like talking about Lady Ledger and Lord Ledger and whose
side are you on? Because this whole show is about
the choices that you have to make that are heartbreaking
in your life and what you give up and what
you choose. And part of becoming an adult is by
making this choice standing by them. But what her kids
are saying to me and Brimsey saying is Brimsley's different.
Speaker 2 (34:37):
Brimsley's also sacrificed.
Speaker 3 (34:39):
He's sacrificed, but in Brimsey's eyes, because Brimsley remembers what
came first. You did it for the world. But it's
that last scene under the bed the whole world revolves
around him.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
That's amazing what you've just said, because basically you're saying
a thing that I thought about passing, but I don't
think I ever really articulated in my head at all,
which is this idea that she has a spectacularly magical
relationship with a man they'll never know.
Speaker 3 (35:09):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
They've never known, and they probably will never know. Somebody
was a memory of their childhood, who probably was insane
for much of it, who for a long time has
lived apart from them. So to them, she's revealed spent
her life revering this figure that is the King that
they don't have a relationship with, you know, So they're
put that out of them, so they're orphans. You're right,
(35:30):
That's been her most important relationship. And to her, he
needs her more. Ooh that I'm very clear in her
mind he needs her more.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
Yeah, And that was the deal. That was the deal.
Speaker 2 (35:41):
She said, I will stand with you between the heavens
and the earth. I will tell you who you are.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Yeah, half a George, half of like half. It will
behold together, will be whole together. I mean that doesn't happen.
Room for a lot, no, And that's the thing, and
that's why it's so relatable, just in terms of life
and choices, which is something always gets lost in the shuffle,
something always gets sacrificed, Somebody is always disappointed.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Yes, there are no bad mothers, there's just incredibly difficult choices.
Speaker 3 (36:09):
Yes, well put And it's like the older you get
and the way I look at my mother and Seanda
knows every story in the world about her, and she
was a situation, but she was an incredibly strong and
interesting woman. And the older I got, the more I
started to appreciate a horrible series of choices she had
to make. You know exactly what you're saying. So my
(36:31):
takeaway from this always is and why I cry at
the end of that episode every single time I see
that darn bedscene, is it's worth it for that one
moment and then you go back to what you're doing.
But I guess it's worth it for that one moment.
But what are you missing?
Speaker 2 (36:48):
But I love that moment when she looks up at
her daughter and she says, you've lost babies And it's
never occurred to her, Oh exactly, nobody's ever shared it
with her. It's never occurred to her like that, and
something she's been privy to in any way, shape or form.
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Well, and as you said, nobody's ever shared it with her.
So the whole thing is you created. It's so interesting.
You said that because you created a situation. She's in
a situation where where no one will tell her anything anyway,
So it's almost like this self fulfilling prophecy. And she
doesn't really want to know because she's busy, but maybe
(37:23):
she did want to know, you know.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Would she have been a different mother, But she had
been a different mother.
Speaker 3 (37:28):
So it's always that sliding doors of I created a
situation which nobody could tell me what was really going
on because they knew that my single mindedness was directing
me here. What did I miss? Do I think she
thinks about that much? No, because she's a practical, forward
thinking human. But I but that is Yeah, it's so
(37:52):
incredibly relatable and moving.
Speaker 2 (37:54):
It's what's lost in the pursuit of greatness.
Speaker 3 (37:56):
Yeah, that's it. That's exactly it.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
So this talk of sacrifice and it all being worth it,
and that last scene also makes me think about all
the people who asked about Brimsley and Reynolds. What's the
moment for Brimsley that makes it all worth it? Is
this something we have yet to see or did we
not see it?
Speaker 2 (38:17):
In me? Well, let's be clear, I don't know if
that moment I mean that seems very clear. She said
that moment makes it all feel worth it, and then
she's back in her life again. So is there a
moment that truly makes it all feel worth it? She
to me the heartbreaking thing, the reason I cry at
the end of the episode when we see them under
the bed together, is because that's what she gets. She's
(38:37):
had a lifetime and all she gets are these little,
tidy moments under the bed together where she can hope
to see glimpses of the George that she loved. You know,
that's opening a door and getting a peek and having
the door closed in your face. I don't know that
that makes anything all worth them. And I think that
this is a story about what happens in the pursuit
of greatness. They are all serving the king. That Brimsley's
(39:00):
in a world in which that is what the main
focus is. Explains to you a lot of his loneliness.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
And it's your whole identity, I mean his that's his
whole identity. It's what you're saying, Seanda. It all boils
down to what do you give up? What do you
get for the pursuit of greatness? So, Betsy, I feel
like that's a question. Do you ask yourself that as
the EP what is lost in the pursuit of greatness?
Speaker 1 (39:24):
Like, I feel like that's a big question.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
I was like, my god, that's that's the years of
therapy question, but also a real one.
Speaker 3 (39:35):
It is everybody who's incredibly devoted to a job that
they love about which they're incredibly passionate. It's one of
your main relationships in your life, and it has that
import and it has that value, and it means it's
sometimes you know, people are always saying like I missed
this anniversary or I missed some of the birth There
(39:56):
there are things that you I think you balance every
day to try to figure out how important that is.
But we all think about all the time. But I
think if you're a perfectionist and you you really care
about what it is you're doing, it doesn't matter if
it's this or something else. You don't have a choice. Like, yeah,
I can't stop thinking about those things and I want
(40:18):
to solve the problem, or I want to crack the net,
or I want to figure out what this piece of
story is that's in the back of my head right
and Shanda knows this. It's like we call them barking dogs.
It's the stuff that, you know, keeps me awake sometimes.
But I get more joy also out of that, and
I think not to the point God knows of being
(40:40):
king or queen of England. Let's not get ahead of
ourselves here.
Speaker 2 (40:43):
But and that's the thing though, I mean, I think
that's the thing about the characters is we are talking
about people. And what fascinated me about the royals is
that they are trapped like, this is not a job
you extensively, This's not a job you can quit. This
is not a job you choose use. This is the
thing that you know. They are going to be queen
and king forever. So for them, the pursuit of greatness
(41:07):
isn't it isn't a choice like it's you know, it
wasn't that long before that people were beheaded, you know.
But for them it's not a choice. They have to
do these jobs. Whereas for us, you know, we're people
who can redefine what we think greatness is every day.
Speaker 3 (41:22):
That's really well put.
Speaker 2 (41:23):
Yeah, they can't do that. They don't have the option
because all they have is what's public.
Speaker 3 (41:27):
But also because it's bloodline too. It's right, you never
can get out of it.
Speaker 2 (41:32):
That's what I found so fascinating about just the world
and even Queen Charlotte. Like she's that woman is trapped
and a job that she can't quit, do you know
what I mean? Like she's got to be the loneliest
woman in.
Speaker 3 (41:45):
England and she tries to quit it. A couple of
times in this show. She means she's like, I'm going
to get I'm going to get on a horse and
a boat. I'm getting hell out of here. And it
was like, actually, no, you can't, because then they will
arrest you because you will be treason. It's because you've
got a bit in your study, you know. It's there's
no free will passed a point. And that's the thing is,
I think I think we can identify with the things
(42:07):
that we all give up on a day to day basis.
But it's still, as SHAWNA says, it's a choice for us.
So but it definitely puts our choices in perspective, that's
for sure. Yes, do you.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
Imagine looking at Shondaland's history of depicting my person in
Queen Charlotte. Intimacy is key in your writing and how
Shawndaland's teams have historically anchored shows that are about like
the wild and extravagant or far fetched and the routine
kind of scenarios. They're all anchored by intimacy. So there's
(42:41):
a scene between Corey and Freddy. Corey is young King
George at a long table. He's beginning to compensate or tremble,
and Freddy mentioned are Reynolds mentions the wine you go
where I'm going, I.
Speaker 2 (42:55):
Know where you're going. The incredible intimacy of him putting
his hand on his shoulder to study him. Now, there
there's one thing that we did actually cut out of
the show. That's one scene that got cut out of
the show. There's an amazing scene at the beginning of
at the end of EPI said five, where you were
Freddie tells what Reynolds tells Brimsley his history with the King,
(43:19):
that they've known each other since they were children, and
that they kept each other's secrets. And I didn't need
that scene because when you watch them together you can
see that that history and that intimacy and that comfort
level with one another. I mean, to me, what was
most key was Reynolds puts his hand on George's shoulder
(43:41):
when George needs it the most, and Brimsley can only
stand in a hallway and hold his hand out in
the direction of the Queen when she needs it the most.
He cannot put his hand on her. The intimacy that
Reynolds and George have is a much more intense one
built from years and years and years together, versus the
fresh new intimacy between Brimsley and the Queen. We're gonna
(44:03):
take a really quick break in when we return. We're
just gonna jump in and we're gonna unpack your questions. Hi,
it's me Shonda Rhimes. You're listening to Queen Charlotte A
Bridgeton Story, the official podcast. Let's get into these fan questions.
Speaker 3 (44:27):
But first, let's take a moment to talk about the
Garden situation.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
I think about the term you're my person. I think
about the Garden conversation when talking about seeing like friendship
and intimacy. Betsy, can you talk about how that fits
across Shondaland's history of showing friendship.
Speaker 3 (44:50):
I think there's something about that that's both the same
and kind of different than what I would call this
sort of you're my person box Because You're my person, box,
I would put in the young Lady Danbury, young Queen Charlotte.
I think what I love about the garden scene is
it's Violet Danbury, who has no one to talk to
(45:11):
about this and who with whom she has. I would
say a relationship with evolve so with the course of
the show, and at that particular point, it is not
fully evolved yet, so I don't think anybody's anybody's person
at that point. I think at that point what it
is is Violet Bridgerton's going through heat and she has nobody.
(45:31):
She looks around her world and she has kids, and
she has no other female friends. So it's much more
about Violet Bridgerton trying to share something, being relieved and
embarrassed she shared it and then clutching her pan brag
and grabbing her purse and running out.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
You know, yes, my secondhand embarrassment was yeah.
Speaker 3 (45:57):
But what I do think it is is it's a
building block in the hole, which it's a piece in
the hole, which is this how a relationship evolves over
the course. And it's one of my favorite things about
the show is watching two people who have always been
cordial and who have served each other's purposes over time,
(46:19):
and I think our friendly you know, in terms of
these this period of time.
Speaker 1 (46:25):
But what happens over the course of the show is
they actually reach an understanding which is way deeper and
way more profound and sets a different relationship in motion.
And it's where it was one of those things I
watched and I went, I want to see them after
this has transpired as friends, because they're different kinds of
(46:46):
friends now. And going back to your question about Shondaland,
I think that's a lot of or just about how
we to pick female friendships, which is clearly something which
I think is core and key certainly to what I
like to watch.
Speaker 3 (47:01):
And to work on. Is it's that relationships are filled
with changes and surprises and if you don't grow, it
dies kind of like her Garden.
Speaker 1 (47:12):
I love that they're imperfect.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
But they have to be. But to me, I feel
like we're watching Violet, who's a lady who, like you're saying,
how does it relate to my person or having a person.
Violet's a person without a person. Violet doesn't have a person,
yea lady deanber It doesn't have kids. The point is
that these ladies are living these weird isolated lives because
they're not considered to have full lives that they share
with one another. And the moment in which she shares
(47:35):
sort of out of desperation, is this wonderful door that
opens to create some intimacy between the two of them.
That's still not fully intimate relationship because Lady Danburry still
got her own secrets that she's keeping. Also, you know,
I know that we love to talk about female friendships
and I know how important it is, but nobody ever
talks about male friendships as if it's a remarkable, magical
thing that men can be friends. We're not just talking
about the intimacy of female friendships and portraying them very
(47:57):
differently in this show versus other shows. They are much
closer to me. All of these relationships that we're watching,
and Queen Charlotte are imperfect. Her marriage to George, it's
an imperfect relationship, and we're watching somebody figure out how
to make an imperfect relationship work. We're watching Lady Danbury
do the same thing, and we're watching Ladanbury do the
same thing in her friendship with Queen Charlotte, where there's
(48:18):
huge power imbalance All of these relationships that we're looking
at are imperfect relationships, and yet people have found ways
to step past all those things that you know, generally
like everything needs to be perfect to have a happy ending.
None of these stories have a happy ending, but they
figure out how to make them work, because that's what
real life and real love and real friendships really are about.
Speaker 3 (48:37):
And you don't take the ending into consideration in life.
You just take the process, you know. So it's all
we all talk about happy endings, and I Checob movies
because our happy endings because then you leave and you
go home and you deal with the crap you have
at home. But it's the process and how the relationships evolve.
Speaker 2 (48:56):
Yeah, I mean, watching Charlotte and George navigate what is
obviously we already know the end when we begin, by
the way, and obviously a very damaged relationship fraught with
a lot of disappointments. And then you're watching Brimsley and Reynolds,
which their relationships are fraught with all of these barriers
and walls and rules about, you know, how they can
(49:17):
be together. And Lady Danberry who's trapped in a marriage
that is not at all anything that she wants and
how it brings her to a place where she understands
that she doesn't want a relationship at all. Like for me,
all of that is that was refreshing to see well,
and it's fun to work on. It's fun to write
because you get to show. You know, there's a lot
of fairy tale in Bridgerton, and I didn't want Queen
Charlotte to be a fairy tale.
Speaker 1 (49:38):
So Miss Claudia on Instagram asks Shanda, what are your
thoughts on the perceived issues of fantasizing history, specifically when
it comes to the portrayal of people of color during
the eras the Bridge Averse spans, and she also asks
if there's an issue of erasure on some level.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
So I find that to be a fascinating question, mainly
because we've made clear that the Bridge of Verse is
its own world. We've been very clear that we're not
standing in actual history. We're talking about, you know, Queen
Charlotte is Bridgerton's Queen Charlotte story, which works for me
on the same level as saying, you know, I watched
(50:19):
some shows in the Marveling Universe and I feel really
uncomfortable that we're erasing the history of robots or whatever.
Do you know what I mean? Like, it's if we're
talking about telling story in fiction. There is science fiction
obviously that you know, puts zombies in the middle of
the Nazi Germany or whatever, and nobody asks them about
that in the service of their storytelling. We have a
(50:42):
universe that we have created, and we have not actually
added science fiction to what. We haven't thrown random things
into it. We took a piece of history and we
extrapolated what would the story have been like if we
had gone in this direction, if the world had gone
in this direction, if Queen Charlotte had been a woman
of color. I don't think that we're a racing history
because I'm not trying to tell atory lesson. I think
when you're watching a biopic or a docu series or whatever,
(51:05):
that's there's a real responsibility there. But we were telling
the story of Queen Charlotte from Bridgerton, which is not
the same as telling the story of Queen Charlotte as
she stood in history, and I should hope we're not
a racing history. My goal, by the way, is that
you then go back and spend a lot of time
reading and trying to figure out where everything lays down
and what was portrayed you know, from the actual history,
(51:27):
and what wasn't and what you can learn, Like I
spent a lot of time tracing the slavery timeline in
terms of these people and what it meant, because I
became fascinated by like what was actually there and what
was going on. Also, you know, I'm just not going
to tell stories where I'm not standing at the center,
where people who look like me aren't a part of
that story.
Speaker 1 (51:46):
I wonder for the both of you, how long you
have felt like you have the space to dream up
whatever you want and to just put it out there
for your own joy and not necessarily for the response.
And if that's even a thing.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
We only make shows we'd like to watch right that
say that's our thing.
Speaker 3 (52:10):
Yeah, I can't work on anything that I don't want
to see or I don't want to say, or or
it's something that I don't see somewhere that needs to
be seen.
Speaker 2 (52:22):
We talk about this a lot, like our responsibility is
entertainment and storytelling. Our responsibility is to tell you a
story and entertaining. Our responsibility is not to tell you
a story that you necessarily are going to agree with
or reflects the story, because I always say, if I
told you the story that you wanted to hear, then
I wouldn't be telling you a story. I would just
be sort of regurgitating back to you you. I think
(52:43):
it's so important to tell people stories that challenge them
and challenge the way they like to perceive the world
or the way they're looking at things, or how they
feel things should be portrayed. And that's not an active
activism or anything. We're literally just telling good story that
makes us happy.
Speaker 3 (52:58):
It's just, seriously, stuff I want to watch.
Speaker 2 (53:00):
If we were not making shows we want to watch,
then there's no point in making shows.
Speaker 3 (53:04):
And that's been true since the very beginning.
Speaker 2 (53:06):
Exactly all we know how to do is to make
shows we want to watch. That's literally always been our
only role.
Speaker 3 (53:10):
We will only make shows to watch and something we
haven't done before.
Speaker 2 (53:15):
Right, we can't be something you've done before because we
get poored. But I get it, Like I understand in
terms of representation, where if you have not been represented enough,
every representation becomes the representation, which to me is always
not a sign of that show didn't represent you correctly.
Like if you watch a show and you're like, I
didn't like how they portrayed this character. That show didn't
represent you correctly. It's a sign that there are not
(53:36):
enough stories being told that represent you. There's just not
enough stories being told where you can see yourself. It's
not any one storyteller's job to represent you. It's that
there should be such a diversity of storytelling that you
get to see yourself in a million different places. Because
I've never heard a white man go I don't feel
correctly represented on television, like no, because they see themselves everywhere.
Speaker 3 (54:00):
Find yourself somewhere if you don't like your stelf and one,
you'll find yourself in something else. And to your point,
and that's yeah.
Speaker 2 (54:10):
Oh, we think about that when in terms characters, A
call everything about it when I'm to women, we think
about it when terms of core presentation, like we're really
trying to tell stories about humanity here like life.
Speaker 3 (54:20):
Very often there's way more going on than you think.
And that's the other great thing is is people surprise you.
Sometimes they don't, but sometimes they do, and sometimes discovering
their reasons as to why they are the way they
are without it getting all trinky, but is why the
(54:41):
joy of this is being able to on some level,
I can always relate to Like people go who's your
favorite character, and I'm like, well, right today it's this,
But tomorrow I'm going to relate to Queen Charlotte in
a different way. And tomorrow the next day I'm Reynolds man,
I'm having a Reynolds day. That's the fun part is
depending on where your head is to choose your own
adventure sort of situation.
Speaker 1 (55:02):
I agree this is from Chaotic Guitar Again, they asked
about a particular scene. They said, I found the scene
where Charlotte asks Brimsley why he never married very sad.
Do you think that was in aha moment for Charlotte
that she actually never asked Brimsley personal questions before? And
then on another occasion, I have heard the question why
(55:24):
was that conversation happening through the mirror?
Speaker 2 (55:27):
Well, let's talk about the fact that how often are
she and Brimsley staring one another in the face. That's
not very often. He's always five paces behind her, which
is one of the reasons why the mirror works so well.
One but two, Look, it was definitely an AHA moment
for Queen Charlotte. I love Queen Charlotte. I love that character.
I loved writing her. But one of my favorite things
about her is she's the Queen. She's inherently selfish. Everything
(55:51):
about her world has been built for her. So it
has certainly never once occurred to her to ask Brimsley
personal questions about himself, do you know what I mean?
And that doesn't make her a bad person. That makes
her the Queen. And I've really enjoyed getting to to
layer that in. I love that moment when Agatha says,
I've been you know, I've been tending to issues from
(56:12):
my husband's, you know, passing an estate.
Speaker 1 (56:15):
It is good to be home. I have missed your company.
Speaker 2 (56:18):
Tell me what if I missed while I was away.
Speaker 1 (56:21):
As for the ton, I have no gossip of consequence
to share. I have been occupied.
Speaker 2 (56:27):
Attending to the estate and the wake of the death
of my husband. Of course, you are mourning a great loss.
Speaker 1 (56:34):
I'm the children.
Speaker 2 (56:38):
Is there anything I can do, Queen Charlotte, It's like,
oh yes, And then she's like, oh wait, is there
anything I can do? Like it's never even occurred to
her that there's anything she could do, because her whole
world is geared to be about her, so yeah, I
don't think it's ever hurts her. And I love the
look on the actress Golda's face when Brimsley gives his
answer and then he walks away, because she has a
(56:58):
very real sense that he has sacrificed as much as
she has in that moment and knows that they can
never discuss it. I don't think you can maintain a
distance between the two of them with if they spent
all their time speaking intimately. There are two pieces to
this I think are really interesting. Is that he says
to her about her daughters, they could not leave you
there trapped in time, but neither could hear I mean.
(57:21):
And that's the point.
Speaker 1 (57:23):
Oh, I'm really happy an oh moment.
Speaker 2 (57:30):
It's why he understand. If you watch the whole show
just from the perspective of just Brimsley, I think you
see a lot of things that maybe you wouldn't have
seen before.
Speaker 1 (57:38):
I never thought Brimsley thinking of himself as one of
oh okay, but I guess I did. But I just
didn't package it like that.
Speaker 2 (57:47):
He's been with her longer than her children, He's been
with her longer than her dogs. He's been with her
longer than anybody in her life. They have the most
He's been with her longer than her husband, more intimately
than her husband. They have the most intimate relationship that
she has in her world, that is her relationship.
Speaker 3 (58:02):
With him, and by far the most man hours.
Speaker 2 (58:05):
Yeah, and they spend all their time together. Like she says,
we'll spend the rest of our lives together at the
beginning of the first end of the first episode so angrily.
The reality of it is is It's true. They spend
their lives together. They have the marriage. Thank you everybody
so much for paying attention and watching Queen Charlotte A
Bridgington Story, listening to the podcast, a Queen Charlotte, A
Bridgeton Story, reading the book Queen Charlotte A bridget and Story.
(58:26):
Betsy and I enjoy talking to you, don't we, Betsy.
Speaker 3 (58:29):
We definitely enjoy talking to you, and for me to
thank you so much for watching, reading, listening, and especially
for joining us for this podcast.
Speaker 2 (58:41):
Giving us an opportunity to talk to each other about
a project that we both.
Speaker 3 (58:45):
Love, which I will always take an opportunity to do.
Speaker 1 (58:48):
Yep, As we draw a curtain on this season, I
cannot help but feel overwhelmed with the need to show
my gratitude to Shonda Rhymes, Betsy Bears, and the entire
team at Shondaland. We extend a heartfelt thank you for
opening the doors of the court and granting us access
(59:11):
to the profound parts of each artist involved in bringing
Queen Charlotte to life. Before we wrap, I must acknowledge
Tom Verica one last time, an into real piece of
the puzzle you has lent his vision as a director
in shaping the visual world of Queen Charlotte and the
culture on set and together, Shonda, Betsy and Tom have
(59:33):
formed a synergy that's brought this series to life right
And I know you're with me in applauding their talent
for assembling a bewitching blend of cast and crew that
all gave us Queen Charlotte. It's really been fun, y'all.
This has been such a great rop through the season
with the cast and to hang out and chat with
remarkable artists who continue to inspire and ignite our imaginations.
(59:57):
Queen Charlotte a Bridgeton story is just one test them
into the growing legacy of Shondaland and the enchantment of storytelling.
The collective brilliance is wh Queen Charlotte. The official podcast
is executive produced by Sandy Bailey, Alex Alcea, Lauren Homan,
Akeia mcnight, and me Gabby Collins. Our producer and editor
(01:00:21):
is Tarry Harrison. Subscribe to the podcast anywhere you get
your favorite shows. Get the book I'm a Crispy Turn
the page, smell the binding kind of Queen, but you
can download it until we meet again. Maybe all find
inspiration in the grace, elegance and audacity of Queen Charlotte.
Thanks again for joining us. Queen Charlotte. The Official podcast
(01:00:50):
is a production of Shondaland Audio in partnership with iHeartRadio.
For more podcasts, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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