June 9, 2025 • 29 mins
🎙️ BA Fam, Let’s Talk Black Capitalism (w/ Dr. Rachel Laryea)
This week’s episode is full of truth, power, and possibility. Mandi sits down with Dr. Rachel Laryea, author of Black Capitalists: A Blueprint for What is Possible, to unpack what it really means to build wealth, create impact, and hold onto your identity as a Black entrepreneur in corporate and capitalist America. From identity crises to boardroom power moves, this convo is all vibes and real talk.
We get into the nuances of Black capitalism—not as a monolith, but as a spectrum of ways we show up, give back, and reshape the game. Because yes, we can do good and do well. And yes, our coins matter. Every dollar we spend is a vote for the kind of world we want.
What You’ll Hear in This Episode:
✨ Black identity and the contradictions of capitalism
✨ How wealth-building can be rooted in community care
✨ The role of DEI, entrepreneurship, and visibility in reshaping power
✨ Why corporate spaces can be sites of resistance
✨ Consumer power: what it means to vote with your wallet
✨ The ethos of Black Capitalism—not just profit, but purpose
🔥 Sound Bites:
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"Blackness is not a monolithic experience."
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"We vote every day with our wallet."
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"We can sneak by and still have an impact."
💡 BA Takeaway:
Capitalism isn’t one-size-fits-all—and for Black entrepreneurs and changemakers, it can be a blueprint for possibility, power, and purpose. Whether you’re in the C-suite or the streets, your choices, dollars, and visibility matter. Build, shift, show up.
Follow Dr. Rachel Laryea!:
https://www.instagram.com/drlaryea/
Stay Connected:
🔗 @brownambitionpodcast
🌐 brownambitionpodcast.com
💌 Subscribe & leave a review—your feedback fuels us, BA Fam!
Let’s keep rising, building, and showing out. 💼💰✊🏾
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
In so many ways. I think Dee and I heard
(00:02):
it spoken this way really well at the Black Economic
Alliance some that I went to recently. EI being really
a consolation prize, it isn't the end goal for us
by any means, and so I think it's really kind
of forcing us, as we live through this moment to
think about one all we have are ourselves and the
places that we find ourselves in. It's like, how do
(00:23):
we continue the work that so many of us have
already been doing and now maybe without the support, but
with certainly the scrutiny of this moment and how we're
experiencing that, but I think that the impact can still happen.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hey, via FAM, Welcome back to the Brown Table. I
am joined by a very special guest today who is
somehow younger than me, but you just kind of get
the feeling that they can be like president. Like I
imagine this is kind of like what it's like to
talk to Amanda Gorman, that poet whose parents have been
raising to be the president. I just feel like I'm
(01:01):
speaking to future Nobel Prize winner. It's fine. I'm very
secure in myself, so I can appreciate her light and
her light only shines on me, and I am so
grateful to have doctor Rachel Laery on Brown Ambition today.
Let me tell you about her. Not only does she
have a brand new book that is coming out by
(01:22):
the time you listen to this episode. You can probably
pre order it already, but you should definitely go to
the show notes and ground the link to purchase her book.
And the book is called Now this is a huge title,
but the book is called Black Capitalists, A Blueprint for
what is Possible. It's coming out this June. It should
be out soon by the time you're listening to this episode.
(01:42):
But doctor, again, doctor Rachel lay is not just an author.
Before she put together this incredible book, she created her
really unique career path, which I'm going to dive into.
I haven't met many women who've managed to carve out entrepreneurship,
writing their own book and still working for a huge
financial institution like JP Morgan Chase. But again, doctor Laier,
(02:07):
you talked to me saying that yet you earned it.
She cut her teeth on Wall Street at Goldman Sachs
and then she went on to receive a dual PhD
in African American Studies and socio cultural anthropology at Yale University.
I've like heard of it cool. Her ethnographic research aims
to understand nuanced forms of black participation in capitalist economies.
(02:32):
She is a recipient of the National Science Foundation Research
Fellowship Award, and she's also been name dropped by the
Ford Foundation for her research, receiving an honorable mention. She's
held an adjunct professor appointment at the NYU Stern Business School,
and currently she's an asset wealth management researcher at JP
Morgan Chase. And I don't know, just like in her
(02:53):
spare time or whatever, she's founded this company. It's called Kellela,
which is a lifestyle brand that's based in Brooklyn, where
she curates bespoke West and East African travel experiences and
has elevated the plantain to the platform. It's always deserved
by creative Vegan. And she's here on Brown Ambition because
(03:15):
duh have you heard her bio? If I'm not getting
doctor lay on my podcast? What are we doing? What
are we doing wrong? Brann and bish Well, welcome to
the show, and congratulations on all of these milestones in
your career.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Oh many, Thank you so much. That was such a beautiful,
gracious intro. I appreciate it. It's awesome to be here in
chow Now.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
I think what's more important for BA fan to know
is that she's actually at her brother's house right now
in the Midwest, babysitting for her three year old and
one year old? Is it niece and nephew. Yes, yes,
what a good auntie. We love it.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Listen, I gotta be gotta show up.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
They got to show you from Brooklyn. They said you
better get on over here.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
So it has been a whirl end. But so happy
to have this moment to talk with you.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, okay, So God, Like, where do we start? I
guess before we get into the book black capitalist, I
want you to define it for me, black capitalists, because
I think I'm someone who I can talk about capitalism
and capitalists. I have an uncle who's like, I'm a capitalist,
so I'm voting for Trump. We don't want to go there,
but black capitalists, Like, why do those two words together
make me feel weird?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Exactly? And it's often the case that many people think
of the term black capitalists as oxymeeronic, and so much
of the reason for that is when you look at
the creation of American capitalism and black people through the
implementation of legalized slavery. We built this capitalist system, but
(04:47):
we're never really allowed to be the beneficiaries of what
we built. And so the idea of being a black
capitalist presents for many an identity crisis. It's like, how
can you hold affinity to a system that you've been
excluded from systematically, And so oftentimes when people define capitalism itself,
oftentimes that's very much kind of imbued with feelings of disgruntlement,
(05:13):
a lot of financial anxiety, worry. People will talk about
capitalism is the root of all evil, the white man's
way of keeping us down, all of these different ways
in which people will define it. But for me, I
think what's really important, and part of the key argument
of the book is if we take capitalism as a
political or economic system whereby private actors engage in economic
(05:38):
exchange for the purpose of yielding excess capital. In that sense,
anyone can be a capitalist or a private actor, and
that's both hopeful and also potentially problematic. Right hopeful in
the sense that we kind of take away this racialized
aspects that we have around who the capitalist is, who
(05:59):
the labor is, and it kind of opens up new
potentials around Okay, how can we use the tools of
capitalism to create new outcomes outside of the ones that
we're so familiar with, namely being within the black community
in that labor position and experiencing the harms of capitalism
so deeply, whether it be exploitation, extraction, etc. But then,
(06:20):
of course we also know that when you look at
the racial wealth gap, who has predominantly been the capitalist,
who has predominantly been the beneficiary of capitalism has been
white people. And so when you then take black and
capitalists and you put it together overlaying that whole history
that I kind of spoke to very quickly, then you
have that kind of visceral emotional reaction of this doesn't
(06:42):
quite sit right with me, you know, And so so
much of the book and the work that I do
is around Okay, let's unpack all of this and then
let's get to a place of common ground and neutrality
about what is capitalism defined. But then also what I'm
offering about what black capitalists and what it means to
also black capitalism, which is definitionally to be a black
(07:03):
capitalist is to be someone who identifies as a black
person and strategically participates in the economy with the intent
to produce social good. So what's really important about that
definition is not just about how can you create profitability
by strategically positioning yourself and participating in the economy, but
it is that other really important part around social good
(07:26):
and that kind of consistent orientation to community, which is
what allows us to then rethink how the tools of
capitalism can be used outside of what we've seen them
be used for. And that's similar to black capitalism, which
is very' agnostic, how anybody, private actors, individual are collective
can resituate themselves within capitalism with the intention to create
(07:48):
social good. If you take a framework like black feminism,
you don't have to be a black person to practice
black feminism, but it is kind of an orientation around
how you show up in support of others in supportive
community as well, and creating a distinction just in that
kind of example, to be a black feminist versus practicing
black feminism. Similar concept to how you can someone can
(08:10):
be a black capitalist, but then also collective can practice
black capitalism.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
So that's all really interesting. I'm wondering, like, when you
talk about the importance of creating social good to be
a black capitalist? Does that social good need to impact us? Like?
Is it what the intent that seems important here? It's
like who who in the social structure? Are we like benefits? Yes? Sure? So?
(08:36):
Is this as simple as like, I mean, in an
ideal world where you've got a profitable business and then
you set up a nonprofit arm to then give back
into the community or fund grants for other entrepreneurs? Is
it dedicating a percentage of profits to certain causes that
benefit our communities? Is that the ideal that you're hoping
(09:00):
this book can help shine a light on.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yes, in some ways. And I think what's so beautiful
about black capitalism is that it can be experienced and
practiced in so many different ways. Just as we know
blackness is not a monolith and it's not a monolithic experience,
the practice of black capitalism is also not a monolithic experience.
And so the definition that I offer in the framework
is robust enough to account for all the different positions
(09:25):
that we might sit in in our daily lives. Some
of us might be in corporate America, like myself, And
so the questions then become within the seat that I'm
seated in what are the opportunities or the access channels
that I can create for other folks in the institution
outside of it, And I can give examples for how
we might think about that. If you're an entrepreneur, some
(09:45):
of what you just described those are beautiful examples of
how you can reposition yourself within the economy to still
create a profitable business. But then also keeping in mind
it goes hand in hand how you create social good
as well. I think it's the case that we all
have a slice of this capitalist pie, and it's really
up to us how we're going to use it and
(10:07):
how we're also going to feed each other in that
kind of experience, And so regardless of where you sit,
there's always kind of a part to play. And I
think that it's less about adjudicating when is enough or
how much social goods should I do, but really from
just having it as a mindset kind of like a
way of life in terms of this is an ethos,
(10:27):
a kind of consistent practice and orientation that I have
around always asking myself how can I be in service
of community, which also requires an abundance mindset, a belief
and a trust in each other and that we can
really only get free through being in community with each other.
And so those are the kind of core building blocks
to then really practice this and create effective change in
(10:50):
the long term.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
I mean, it just sounds very similar to the ethos
of Brown ambition, which is we're not just building wealth
because it's fun to get rich. It's how can we
use our economic power to influence change, to bring about change,
to protect ourselves, to protect our families, to build generational wealth,
all those things. There's really like an empowerment element to it,
which sometimes I think you need because capitalism, ambition, these
(11:15):
are two words that tend to drop feelings of like, oh,
like you're just selfish, you're greedy, you're looking out for
number one. But it's like, no, let's look at these
terms and show that they can bring about good. It
just matters like who's controlling it. As long as you
control the wealth, you can have so much influence. One
of the things that I when I was kind of
(11:36):
reading through some of I know you talk to black
professionals who are working in corporate America, And one of
the stories that resonated with me was the guy who said,
and he works in banking, I believe and he said
that he feels like he's a spy a little bit,
like they think he's one of them. And by one
of them, I mean like we's kind of code switching.
(11:56):
We all do that. We show up to work, we talk,
we talk real good, and we make everybody feel good
that we have a black person on their team, but
like never exactly like owning our blackness necessarily because that
might be a little threatening, but just being there in
the mix. But at the same time, he's like, but
I've never forgotten who I am. I know why I'm here.
(12:16):
And it just resonated with me so much because in
my corporate career, when I got to a position where
I was hiring someone, oh yeah, I mentioned that I
work with someone whose last name is Lia. I know
another LIAI shout out to Brittany, and she was the
first reporter that I was ever able to hire. Once
I became a manager, it mattered to me that my
first hire was a black woman. I went on to
(12:38):
get the privilege to put together a team that ended
up including like I think, thirty staff and a bunch
of contractors, and I used to say to myself, I'm
like a spy, Like nobody knows I'm taking all the
money that they're giving me for these hires, and I
am going and finding people of color and women like
and I just I love that there. I want more
(13:00):
of us to think of it that way, all here undercover,
to create that change in incremental ways, like from within.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yeah, I love that. Because also after I graduated from college,
you know, so many of my peers went on to
more like altruistic careers, and I faced quite a bit
of criticism around like, oh, you're going to Goldman Sachs,
like that's the belly of the beast, Like what's she
going to go do there? You know? And also coming
from my undergraduate studies which was seeped in social and
(13:33):
cultural analysis and really understanding the harms of these structures,
generally capitalist structures. But for me, it's like it really
matters the orientation that you have when you're in those spaces,
because surely, yes, you can exist in these corporate spaces
that people have all of this criticism around, But if
you have these subversive intentions like alex as you mentioned,
(13:55):
that makes a difference. It's like the how and the
why can really shift outcomes. Because I think for him,
what was so important was like how can he channel
resources to his community by being at the firm that
he was, similar to how you're thinking about how can
I create a pipeline of access for people to have
space in these spaces where otherwise maybe they wouldn't be
(14:17):
considered or overlooked or whatever it is. And so I
think when you shift our mindset, it's like, Oh, there's
a whole new set of opportunities I think that arise
in that, and that to me is like the efficacy
and the potential to create new outcomes.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Yeah, especially at a time like this where that's like
DEI attacked, it almost makes me regret the resurgence or
the surge of DEI as a term as an institution,
like as a categorization in corporate America, like in the
summer of twenty twenty, and all of a sudden, it's like, oh,
we're going to show that we are on board by
(14:52):
creating these DEI rolls or teams and initiatives. It almost
like gave a target. So the way that we were
kind of being subversive and like the way that I
was being sneaky about it. I'm practicing d I in
my hiring, but I ain't telling nobody is that, you
know what I mean? But it's like when we name it,
we kind of give them a target. And I think
that's what's happening. And so you're seeing now it's like, well,
let's just get rid of all these DEI programs. And
(15:13):
I think that, you know, what we're talking about is
like a reminder that if you're still like we're a
lot of people were in corporate like, you can still
have an impact even if you're not under that umbrella,
maybe even more so because we can sneak by. Yes, yes,
you know that's the Beverly Hills cop know what's the
emission impossible?
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Oh? Is that one?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
No, I don't know. James Bond, that's okay. Maybe if
Lushana Lynch was the new Black James Bond like she
should have been, oh I would know.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
But I agree with you. I think it creates and
in so many ways I think d E and I
I heard it spoken this way really well at the
Black Economic Alliance Summit that I went to recently. EI
being really a consolation prize. It isn't the end goal
for us by any means, and so I think it's
really kind of forcing us as we live through this
(16:11):
moment to think about one, all we have are ourselves
and the places that we find ourselves in. It's like,
how do we continue the work that so many of
us have already been doing and now maybe without the support,
but with certainly the scrutiny of this moment and how
we're experiencing that. But I think that the impact can
still happen. When I first joined JP Morgan Chase, I
(16:32):
was the Community Impact team, and that team was responsible
for the thirty billion dollar racial equity commitment that came
out in twenty twenty after George Floyd's murder, where the
firm made very strong commitments around how it was going
to really try to close this racial wealth gap. I
was on that team starting in twenty twenty two and
really kind of a watch from the inside the kind
(16:54):
of process and the journey of a Dee and I
effort and initiative go invoke and out of vogue within
a period of time. And that was so striking to
me to see that to be a d and I
practitioner as a black woman, you know, really in service
of our black and brown clients, and what that moment meant.
Layer on the affirmative action ruling that came out around
(17:17):
that period as well, and it kind of really shifted,
not even just kind of the internal stakeholder conversations that
were happening around the work that we were doing, which
was already challenging because here you are trying to create
new ways of working within the business, but now there's
this kind of question around legal prudence and due diligence
(17:39):
to make sure that we're not making a firm liable
to anything created another layer of complexity, and that prompt
in my own kind of professional journey of what are
other places I could find myself in? Ultimately wound up
in ass wealth management. The work doesn't end. It's like
I spend a lot of my time still thinking about
how can I create new outcomes for our black clients
(18:02):
within the wealth management space.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
A couple of things I want to talk about. What's
your take on a couple of things? One in the
news right now? Of course, in my mind, I'm like
the met Gala to display I feel like of black
capitalism at work with the theme this year, and I
would love to get your take on it. Do you
think that that type of initiative is helpful? You have
like this largely white fashion industry who's obviously profited off
(18:29):
of our culture in so many ways, but still you
see so many few designers of color reach these prominent
levels as other mainstream brands and get as much access
to the resources as other brands and other fashion houses.
But then you have Vogue kind of centering blackness in
the theme for this year, and Black Dandyism really celebrating
(18:52):
tailoring and the influence of a very specific time in
black culture in the fashion landscape, and which has then
given them this huge platform to spotlight black designers and
really celebrate that work. What's your perspective on that.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I'm
always going to be in supportive of black people getting
the visibility they deserve the money. But at the same time,
I think it's important that we not rely on these
white institutions to be the savior or the means by
(19:28):
which we create access for ourselves. It's like great, taking
all the resources in whatever manner they come from, who
they come but I think what's important is, like, especially
a lot of those moments, they don't have the level
of consistency or sustainability. It becomes a one and done unfortunately,
or it becomes something of the zeitgeist. And so all
(19:50):
of the more reason that when we're talking about sustainability
and what's really going to hold this down in the
long term, it really needs to come from us. And
so I think it's always how can we anchor on
the tools that we can use for ourselves, create those
kind of systems for ourselves. And sure it's like if
folks want to shine a light amazing, especially because those
(20:11):
spaces have capital and excess and all these other privileges
that come with that. It's like leverage it. I'm all
about how can we leverage and service of our community.
And so I think keeping that kind of maybe sobering
perspective in mind that we never know how long those
opportunities will last. But what we do know is we
have us at the end of the day, and so
we have to make sure that we're locked in on
(20:32):
that and we're good and anything else is I think
additive to that.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, all right, target, My perspective is like we just
all got it, and I don't even think we needed
Al Sharpton, but like shout out out for you know,
doing reverend for putting his stamp on it. But this
like national agreement among black consumers that we don't f
with no MO. Do you talk about other examples of
these types of like collective boycotting and how we can
actually have an impact. You think about lunch counter boycotts
(20:59):
and obviously the boycotts during the Civil rights movement, But
is this an example of how we can be black
capitalists and using it?
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Yes, one thousand percent. I think what's so important is
that oftentimes when we collectively think about executing our agency
or the moments we feel most stagantic is when we're voting.
And that's not something that only needs to happen every
four years, every two years, whenever there's an election. We
(21:27):
vote every day with our wallet, every single day, multiple
times a day, and that is as powerful a vote,
if not more able, and really am the service of
getting us the things that we want, creating the outcomes
that we're wanting, and so so often and because of
just the you know, the structures that have been in
place that have limited the access that we've had to
(21:48):
systems and opportunities around ownership, consumerism has really been the
avenue that's been available to us. And so when you
think about that. It's often been from a place of
a lack of agency. See, it's like, oh, this is
what we've been relegated to, this is what we've been given,
and so this is how we'll participate in economy. But
there's still agency to be realized even in a consumerist approach.
(22:10):
It's like I choose where I will spend my dollars.
And so I think what's so beautiful about this moment,
which I think is new, is that we have struggled
to really get to a unified place and really speaking
from one voice when it comes to how we use
our money within the community. And so you know, if
people don't want to, I'll put it this way, whether
(22:31):
it be allies or not. I think white people have
an incredible ability to consume a lot of qualitative data
about racism without changing their behaviors. But then when they
are presented with the effects of economics, like not having
access to our capital in different ways, that creates a
new paradigm where okay, we're listening in new ways, and
(22:55):
so I think that's really important to keep in mind.
And the more that we can come and connect from
a place of unification in that, the better and so
I think that's so important, especially because that hasn't always
been the case. And so even when you think about
this from a global context and you want to say
something like pan Africanism. One of the people that I
interview in the book, he is based in Ghana. He
(23:18):
has an investment company and has built out a company
really focused on technology at the center of healthcare and
real estate across the African continent, and so much of
what he says is what's really important is when you
think about how countries negotiate with each other. It's a
very different paradigm for Ghana right as a country to negotiate,
(23:42):
you know, political terms with say the United States. But
what's different is if you have fifty four African countries
with how many of our people, how much additional resources
in capital per person accounted for in that context to
then be negotiating terms. It's like when you move from
a place unification it creates new outcomes, and I think
we're seeing that in this moment, but we can also
(24:04):
see it in a really global scale as well. It's
not just situated in an American context. And so I'm excited
about that, but I still think there's work to be
done when it comes to how we talk about consumerism,
ownership and relating it back to our practice of capitalism
and really reorienting our mindset around how we can be
capitalists and participate as capitalists within capitalism but from a
(24:27):
different place, and create new outcomes in that process.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
So, with a little bit of time we have left,
I want to talk about your career because it's so fascinating.
I mean, it's very multi layered. You're working for this
giant bank right now, Jamie Diamond said something about DEI
that wasn't great. How do you balance working for such
a big brand? Are they cool with this book tour? Like?
Do they know about your book?
Speaker 1 (24:50):
You know, I had to get the book approved actually,
and especially especially because I worked on the community impact
team responsible for other racial equity commitment. So and I
write about that.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I write about what.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
It meant for me to be on that team during
that moment and to see the swift changes and some
of the challenges of being at a bank and trying
to do racial equity work. And so they're like, oh,
we need to see what you said. So they're very
much aware. But it's interesting because I think, and especially
I learned it when I was at Goldman. These institutions
(25:23):
we know are not perfect by any means, But then
for me, similar to what we were talking about before,
it's like, how can I use this in service of
myself and of my community. I know that, especially when
I was in grad school, I thought I was going
to become an academic, and I quickly became disillusioned with
that idea, just seeing the quality of life, the challenges
(25:44):
that come especially with being a black woman in academia,
the standards that we were held to, the lack of
promotion we get so often, and of course so much
of that translates into corporate America as well, but just
opportunities to acquire resources for me personally, just more opportunity there.
And so I said, Okay, if I know that I'm
going to make that trade off, it's like what are
(26:07):
the what's the what's the dance that I'm always playing?
And that's really what it is for me. Where it's
you know, it's not a perfect place, but I have
been able to find a really good team of people
that I genuinely enjoy working with. And then of course
I also have my motives of how can I create
new outcomes for black folks within the context of wealth
management and use pol do there exactly? As a researcher, Yeah,
(26:30):
So I cover within wealth management the research that allows
us to create mental models around our clients that then
informs the kinds of products that we create and ultimately
market to our clients. And so within wealth management, we
have advice services where someone might say I want to
work with a financial advisor, and there are different product
(26:51):
offerings for that. And we also have self directed investing
online investing where people can kind of self service and
we have a product for that. And so I and
a lot of time I'll go to people's homes, I'll
interview them, I'll talk to them, hey, like, how do
you think about wealth? How do you think about investing?
How has it changed over time? I, as a researcher,
listening and gathering all of this data across all of
(27:12):
these different people that I speak to then say to
our product partners and our other stakeholders, this should be
the direction with which we strategically think about the buildout
of the products that we have. So that's the kind
of work that I do. And is unsurprising is that
when you're talking with a bunch of really affluent, high
net worth folks. The majority of them historically have been
(27:34):
white men, And so when I say I'm going to
people's homes, is usually white men's homes that I'm going to,
and I'm talking to them. But I'm always thinking through
how can I create opportunities to interview black folks, to
bring them into the office so people can see them,
to see that black wealth is also a reality, and
to create just considerations for different experiences that have been
(27:57):
really just anchored on this one experience within the business.
And so that for me is always my kind of
call to action while I'm in these spaces that are
make no mistake giving me resources to live the life
that I live, But it's really how can I use
it in service of more than just myself?
Speaker 2 (28:14):
You know, well, thank you. I know we have a
hard stop. I'm going to shout out the in the
in the show notes. Although we didn't get you have
to come back. We can talk about your your passion
project with Kelly. But doctor Rachel Lay, thank you so much.
Congratulations on the book be a fam Go check it out.
The book is Black Capitalist a blueprint for what is possible?
(28:37):
It's a great it's just a great book to get
you thinking and maybe like help help us all become
little corporate spies, because it matters, it really does. All right,
go be anti anti because for real, that's the most
I learned about you. I'm like, oh, you're good people.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Attah No, this has been a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Six
In so many ways. I think Dee and I heard
(00:02):
it spoken this way really well at the Black Economic
Alliance some that I went to recently. EI being really
a consolation prize, it isn't the end goal for us
by any means, and so I think it's really kind
of forcing us, as we live through this moment to
think about one all we have are ourselves and the
places that we find ourselves in. It's like, how do
(00:23):
we continue the work that so many of us have
already been doing and now maybe without the support, but
with certainly the scrutiny of this moment and how we're
experiencing that, but I think that the impact can still happen.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Hey, via FAM, Welcome back to the Brown Table. I
am joined by a very special guest today who is
somehow younger than me, but you just kind of get
the feeling that they can be like president. Like I
imagine this is kind of like what it's like to
talk to Amanda Gorman, that poet whose parents have been
raising to be the president. I just feel like I'm
(01:01):
speaking to future Nobel Prize winner. It's fine. I'm very
secure in myself, so I can appreciate her light and
her light only shines on me, and I am so
grateful to have doctor Rachel Laery on Brown Ambition today.
Let me tell you about her. Not only does she
have a brand new book that is coming out by
(01:22):
the time you listen to this episode. You can probably
pre order it already, but you should definitely go to
the show notes and ground the link to purchase her book.
And the book is called Now this is a huge title,
but the book is called Black Capitalists, A Blueprint for
what is Possible. It's coming out this June. It should
be out soon by the time you're listening to this episode.
(01:42):
But doctor, again, doctor Rachel lay is not just an author.
Before she put together this incredible book, she created her
really unique career path, which I'm going to dive into.
I haven't met many women who've managed to carve out entrepreneurship,
writing their own book and still working for a huge
financial institution like JP Morgan Chase. But again, doctor Laier,
(02:07):
you talked to me saying that yet you earned it.
She cut her teeth on Wall Street at Goldman Sachs
and then she went on to receive a dual PhD
in African American Studies and socio cultural anthropology at Yale University.
I've like heard of it cool. Her ethnographic research aims
to understand nuanced forms of black participation in capitalist economies.
(02:32):
She is a recipient of the National Science Foundation Research
Fellowship Award, and she's also been name dropped by the
Ford Foundation for her research, receiving an honorable mention. She's
held an adjunct professor appointment at the NYU Stern Business School,
and currently she's an asset wealth management researcher at JP
Morgan Chase. And I don't know, just like in her
(02:53):
spare time or whatever, she's founded this company. It's called Kellela,
which is a lifestyle brand that's based in Brooklyn, where
she curates bespoke West and East African travel experiences and
has elevated the plantain to the platform. It's always deserved
by creative Vegan. And she's here on Brown Ambition because
(03:15):
duh have you heard her bio? If I'm not getting
doctor lay on my podcast? What are we doing? What
are we doing wrong? Brann and bish Well, welcome to
the show, and congratulations on all of these milestones in
your career.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Oh many, Thank you so much. That was such a beautiful,
gracious intro. I appreciate it. It's awesome to be here in
chow Now.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
I think what's more important for BA fan to know
is that she's actually at her brother's house right now
in the Midwest, babysitting for her three year old and
one year old? Is it niece and nephew. Yes, yes,
what a good auntie. We love it.
Speaker 1 (03:52):
Listen, I gotta be gotta show up.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
They got to show you from Brooklyn. They said you
better get on over here.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
So it has been a whirl end. But so happy
to have this moment to talk with you.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
Yeah, okay, So God, Like, where do we start? I
guess before we get into the book black capitalist, I
want you to define it for me, black capitalists, because
I think I'm someone who I can talk about capitalism
and capitalists. I have an uncle who's like, I'm a capitalist,
so I'm voting for Trump. We don't want to go there,
but black capitalists, Like, why do those two words together
make me feel weird?
Speaker 1 (04:26):
Exactly? And it's often the case that many people think
of the term black capitalists as oxymeeronic, and so much
of the reason for that is when you look at
the creation of American capitalism and black people through the
implementation of legalized slavery. We built this capitalist system, but
(04:47):
we're never really allowed to be the beneficiaries of what
we built. And so the idea of being a black
capitalist presents for many an identity crisis. It's like, how
can you hold affinity to a system that you've been
excluded from systematically, And so oftentimes when people define capitalism itself,
oftentimes that's very much kind of imbued with feelings of disgruntlement,
(05:13):
a lot of financial anxiety, worry. People will talk about
capitalism is the root of all evil, the white man's
way of keeping us down, all of these different ways
in which people will define it. But for me, I
think what's really important, and part of the key argument
of the book is if we take capitalism as a
political or economic system whereby private actors engage in economic
(05:38):
exchange for the purpose of yielding excess capital. In that sense,
anyone can be a capitalist or a private actor, and
that's both hopeful and also potentially problematic. Right hopeful in
the sense that we kind of take away this racialized
aspects that we have around who the capitalist is, who
(05:59):
the labor is, and it kind of opens up new
potentials around Okay, how can we use the tools of
capitalism to create new outcomes outside of the ones that
we're so familiar with, namely being within the black community
in that labor position and experiencing the harms of capitalism
so deeply, whether it be exploitation, extraction, etc. But then,
(06:20):
of course we also know that when you look at
the racial wealth gap, who has predominantly been the capitalist,
who has predominantly been the beneficiary of capitalism has been
white people. And so when you then take black and
capitalists and you put it together overlaying that whole history
that I kind of spoke to very quickly, then you
have that kind of visceral emotional reaction of this doesn't
(06:42):
quite sit right with me, you know, And so so
much of the book and the work that I do
is around Okay, let's unpack all of this and then
let's get to a place of common ground and neutrality
about what is capitalism defined. But then also what I'm
offering about what black capitalists and what it means to
also black capitalism, which is definitionally to be a black
(07:03):
capitalist is to be someone who identifies as a black
person and strategically participates in the economy with the intent
to produce social good. So what's really important about that
definition is not just about how can you create profitability
by strategically positioning yourself and participating in the economy, but
it is that other really important part around social good
(07:26):
and that kind of consistent orientation to community, which is
what allows us to then rethink how the tools of
capitalism can be used outside of what we've seen them
be used for. And that's similar to black capitalism, which
is very' agnostic, how anybody, private actors, individual are collective
can resituate themselves within capitalism with the intention to create
(07:48):
social good. If you take a framework like black feminism,
you don't have to be a black person to practice
black feminism, but it is kind of an orientation around
how you show up in support of others in supportive
community as well, and creating a distinction just in that
kind of example, to be a black feminist versus practicing
black feminism. Similar concept to how you can someone can
(08:10):
be a black capitalist, but then also collective can practice
black capitalism.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
So that's all really interesting. I'm wondering, like, when you
talk about the importance of creating social good to be
a black capitalist? Does that social good need to impact us? Like?
Is it what the intent that seems important here? It's
like who who in the social structure? Are we like benefits? Yes? Sure? So?
(08:36):
Is this as simple as like, I mean, in an
ideal world where you've got a profitable business and then
you set up a nonprofit arm to then give back
into the community or fund grants for other entrepreneurs? Is
it dedicating a percentage of profits to certain causes that
benefit our communities? Is that the ideal that you're hoping
(09:00):
this book can help shine a light on.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Yes, in some ways. And I think what's so beautiful
about black capitalism is that it can be experienced and
practiced in so many different ways. Just as we know
blackness is not a monolith and it's not a monolithic experience,
the practice of black capitalism is also not a monolithic experience.
And so the definition that I offer in the framework
is robust enough to account for all the different positions
(09:25):
that we might sit in in our daily lives. Some
of us might be in corporate America, like myself, And
so the questions then become within the seat that I'm
seated in what are the opportunities or the access channels
that I can create for other folks in the institution
outside of it, And I can give examples for how
we might think about that. If you're an entrepreneur, some
(09:45):
of what you just described those are beautiful examples of
how you can reposition yourself within the economy to still
create a profitable business. But then also keeping in mind
it goes hand in hand how you create social good
as well. I think it's the case that we all
have a slice of this capitalist pie, and it's really
up to us how we're going to use it and
(10:07):
how we're also going to feed each other in that
kind of experience, And so regardless of where you sit,
there's always kind of a part to play. And I
think that it's less about adjudicating when is enough or
how much social goods should I do, but really from
just having it as a mindset kind of like a
way of life in terms of this is an ethos,
(10:27):
a kind of consistent practice and orientation that I have
around always asking myself how can I be in service
of community, which also requires an abundance mindset, a belief
and a trust in each other and that we can
really only get free through being in community with each other.
And so those are the kind of core building blocks
to then really practice this and create effective change in
(10:50):
the long term.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
I mean, it just sounds very similar to the ethos
of Brown ambition, which is we're not just building wealth
because it's fun to get rich. It's how can we
use our economic power to influence change, to bring about change,
to protect ourselves, to protect our families, to build generational wealth,
all those things. There's really like an empowerment element to it,
which sometimes I think you need because capitalism, ambition, these
(11:15):
are two words that tend to drop feelings of like, oh,
like you're just selfish, you're greedy, you're looking out for
number one. But it's like, no, let's look at these
terms and show that they can bring about good. It
just matters like who's controlling it. As long as you
control the wealth, you can have so much influence. One
of the things that I when I was kind of
(11:36):
reading through some of I know you talk to black
professionals who are working in corporate America, And one of
the stories that resonated with me was the guy who said,
and he works in banking, I believe and he said
that he feels like he's a spy a little bit,
like they think he's one of them. And by one
of them, I mean like we's kind of code switching.
(11:56):
We all do that. We show up to work, we talk,
we talk real good, and we make everybody feel good
that we have a black person on their team, but
like never exactly like owning our blackness necessarily because that
might be a little threatening, but just being there in
the mix. But at the same time, he's like, but
I've never forgotten who I am. I know why I'm here.
(12:16):
And it just resonated with me so much because in
my corporate career, when I got to a position where
I was hiring someone, oh yeah, I mentioned that I
work with someone whose last name is Lia. I know
another LIAI shout out to Brittany, and she was the
first reporter that I was ever able to hire. Once
I became a manager, it mattered to me that my
first hire was a black woman. I went on to
(12:38):
get the privilege to put together a team that ended
up including like I think, thirty staff and a bunch
of contractors, and I used to say to myself, I'm
like a spy, Like nobody knows I'm taking all the
money that they're giving me for these hires, and I
am going and finding people of color and women like
and I just I love that there. I want more
(13:00):
of us to think of it that way, all here undercover,
to create that change in incremental ways, like from within.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Yeah, I love that. Because also after I graduated from college,
you know, so many of my peers went on to
more like altruistic careers, and I faced quite a bit
of criticism around like, oh, you're going to Goldman Sachs,
like that's the belly of the beast, Like what's she
going to go do there? You know? And also coming
from my undergraduate studies which was seeped in social and
(13:33):
cultural analysis and really understanding the harms of these structures,
generally capitalist structures. But for me, it's like it really
matters the orientation that you have when you're in those spaces,
because surely, yes, you can exist in these corporate spaces
that people have all of this criticism around, But if
you have these subversive intentions like alex as you mentioned,
(13:55):
that makes a difference. It's like the how and the
why can really shift outcomes. Because I think for him,
what was so important was like how can he channel
resources to his community by being at the firm that
he was, similar to how you're thinking about how can
I create a pipeline of access for people to have
space in these spaces where otherwise maybe they wouldn't be
(14:17):
considered or overlooked or whatever it is. And so I
think when you shift our mindset, it's like, Oh, there's
a whole new set of opportunities I think that arise
in that, and that to me is like the efficacy
and the potential to create new outcomes.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Yeah, especially at a time like this where that's like
DEI attacked, it almost makes me regret the resurgence or
the surge of DEI as a term as an institution,
like as a categorization in corporate America, like in the
summer of twenty twenty, and all of a sudden, it's like, oh,
we're going to show that we are on board by
(14:52):
creating these DEI rolls or teams and initiatives. It almost
like gave a target. So the way that we were
kind of being subversive and like the way that I
was being sneaky about it. I'm practicing d I in
my hiring, but I ain't telling nobody is that, you
know what I mean? But it's like when we name it,
we kind of give them a target. And I think
that's what's happening. And so you're seeing now it's like, well,
let's just get rid of all these DEI programs. And
(15:13):
I think that, you know, what we're talking about is
like a reminder that if you're still like we're a
lot of people were in corporate like, you can still
have an impact even if you're not under that umbrella,
maybe even more so because we can sneak by. Yes, yes,
you know that's the Beverly Hills cop know what's the
emission impossible?
Speaker 1 (15:35):
Oh? Is that one?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
No, I don't know. James Bond, that's okay. Maybe if
Lushana Lynch was the new Black James Bond like she
should have been, oh I would know.
Speaker 1 (15:51):
But I agree with you. I think it creates and
in so many ways I think d E and I
I heard it spoken this way really well at the
Black Economic Alliance Summit that I went to recently. EI
being really a consolation prize. It isn't the end goal
for us by any means, and so I think it's
really kind of forcing us as we live through this
(16:11):
moment to think about one, all we have are ourselves
and the places that we find ourselves in. It's like,
how do we continue the work that so many of
us have already been doing and now maybe without the support,
but with certainly the scrutiny of this moment and how
we're experiencing that. But I think that the impact can
still happen. When I first joined JP Morgan Chase, I
(16:32):
was the Community Impact team, and that team was responsible
for the thirty billion dollar racial equity commitment that came
out in twenty twenty after George Floyd's murder, where the
firm made very strong commitments around how it was going
to really try to close this racial wealth gap. I
was on that team starting in twenty twenty two and
really kind of a watch from the inside the kind
(16:54):
of process and the journey of a Dee and I
effort and initiative go invoke and out of vogue within
a period of time. And that was so striking to
me to see that to be a d and I
practitioner as a black woman, you know, really in service
of our black and brown clients, and what that moment meant.
Layer on the affirmative action ruling that came out around
(17:17):
that period as well, and it kind of really shifted,
not even just kind of the internal stakeholder conversations that
were happening around the work that we were doing, which
was already challenging because here you are trying to create
new ways of working within the business, but now there's
this kind of question around legal prudence and due diligence
(17:39):
to make sure that we're not making a firm liable
to anything created another layer of complexity, and that prompt
in my own kind of professional journey of what are
other places I could find myself in? Ultimately wound up
in ass wealth management. The work doesn't end. It's like
I spend a lot of my time still thinking about
how can I create new outcomes for our black clients
(18:02):
within the wealth management space.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
A couple of things I want to talk about. What's
your take on a couple of things? One in the
news right now? Of course, in my mind, I'm like
the met Gala to display I feel like of black
capitalism at work with the theme this year, and I
would love to get your take on it. Do you
think that that type of initiative is helpful? You have
like this largely white fashion industry who's obviously profited off
(18:29):
of our culture in so many ways, but still you
see so many few designers of color reach these prominent
levels as other mainstream brands and get as much access
to the resources as other brands and other fashion houses.
But then you have Vogue kind of centering blackness in
the theme for this year, and Black Dandyism really celebrating
(18:52):
tailoring and the influence of a very specific time in
black culture in the fashion landscape, and which has then
given them this huge platform to spotlight black designers and
really celebrate that work. What's your perspective on that.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, I'm
always going to be in supportive of black people getting
the visibility they deserve the money. But at the same time,
I think it's important that we not rely on these
white institutions to be the savior or the means by
(19:28):
which we create access for ourselves. It's like great, taking
all the resources in whatever manner they come from, who
they come but I think what's important is, like, especially
a lot of those moments, they don't have the level
of consistency or sustainability. It becomes a one and done unfortunately,
or it becomes something of the zeitgeist. And so all
(19:50):
of the more reason that when we're talking about sustainability
and what's really going to hold this down in the
long term, it really needs to come from us. And
so I think it's always how can we anchor on
the tools that we can use for ourselves, create those
kind of systems for ourselves. And sure it's like if
folks want to shine a light amazing, especially because those
(20:11):
spaces have capital and excess and all these other privileges
that come with that. It's like leverage it. I'm all
about how can we leverage and service of our community.
And so I think keeping that kind of maybe sobering
perspective in mind that we never know how long those
opportunities will last. But what we do know is we
have us at the end of the day, and so
we have to make sure that we're locked in on
(20:32):
that and we're good and anything else is I think
additive to that.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, all right, target, My perspective is like we just
all got it, and I don't even think we needed
Al Sharpton, but like shout out out for you know,
doing reverend for putting his stamp on it. But this
like national agreement among black consumers that we don't f
with no MO. Do you talk about other examples of
these types of like collective boycotting and how we can
actually have an impact. You think about lunch counter boycotts
(20:59):
and obviously the boycotts during the Civil rights movement, But
is this an example of how we can be black
capitalists and using it?
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Yes, one thousand percent. I think what's so important is
that oftentimes when we collectively think about executing our agency
or the moments we feel most stagantic is when we're voting.
And that's not something that only needs to happen every
four years, every two years, whenever there's an election. We
(21:27):
vote every day with our wallet, every single day, multiple
times a day, and that is as powerful a vote,
if not more able, and really am the service of
getting us the things that we want, creating the outcomes
that we're wanting, and so so often and because of
just the you know, the structures that have been in
place that have limited the access that we've had to
(21:48):
systems and opportunities around ownership, consumerism has really been the
avenue that's been available to us. And so when you
think about that. It's often been from a place of
a lack of agency. See, it's like, oh, this is
what we've been relegated to, this is what we've been given,
and so this is how we'll participate in economy. But
there's still agency to be realized even in a consumerist approach.
(22:10):
It's like I choose where I will spend my dollars.
And so I think what's so beautiful about this moment,
which I think is new, is that we have struggled
to really get to a unified place and really speaking
from one voice when it comes to how we use
our money within the community. And so you know, if
people don't want to, I'll put it this way, whether
(22:31):
it be allies or not. I think white people have
an incredible ability to consume a lot of qualitative data
about racism without changing their behaviors. But then when they
are presented with the effects of economics, like not having
access to our capital in different ways, that creates a
new paradigm where okay, we're listening in new ways, and
(22:55):
so I think that's really important to keep in mind.
And the more that we can come and connect from
a place of unification in that, the better and so
I think that's so important, especially because that hasn't always
been the case. And so even when you think about
this from a global context and you want to say
something like pan Africanism. One of the people that I
interview in the book, he is based in Ghana. He
(23:18):
has an investment company and has built out a company
really focused on technology at the center of healthcare and
real estate across the African continent, and so much of
what he says is what's really important is when you
think about how countries negotiate with each other. It's a
very different paradigm for Ghana right as a country to negotiate,
(23:42):
you know, political terms with say the United States. But
what's different is if you have fifty four African countries
with how many of our people, how much additional resources
in capital per person accounted for in that context to
then be negotiating terms. It's like when you move from
a place unification it creates new outcomes, and I think
we're seeing that in this moment, but we can also
(24:04):
see it in a really global scale as well. It's
not just situated in an American context. And so I'm excited
about that, but I still think there's work to be
done when it comes to how we talk about consumerism,
ownership and relating it back to our practice of capitalism
and really reorienting our mindset around how we can be
capitalists and participate as capitalists within capitalism but from a
(24:27):
different place, and create new outcomes in that process.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
So, with a little bit of time we have left,
I want to talk about your career because it's so fascinating.
I mean, it's very multi layered. You're working for this
giant bank right now, Jamie Diamond said something about DEI
that wasn't great. How do you balance working for such
a big brand? Are they cool with this book tour? Like?
Do they know about your book?
Speaker 1 (24:50):
You know, I had to get the book approved actually,
and especially especially because I worked on the community impact
team responsible for other racial equity commitment. So and I
write about that.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
I write about what.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
It meant for me to be on that team during
that moment and to see the swift changes and some
of the challenges of being at a bank and trying
to do racial equity work. And so they're like, oh,
we need to see what you said. So they're very
much aware. But it's interesting because I think, and especially
I learned it when I was at Goldman. These institutions
(25:23):
we know are not perfect by any means, But then
for me, similar to what we were talking about before,
it's like, how can I use this in service of
myself and of my community. I know that, especially when
I was in grad school, I thought I was going
to become an academic, and I quickly became disillusioned with
that idea, just seeing the quality of life, the challenges
(25:44):
that come especially with being a black woman in academia,
the standards that we were held to, the lack of
promotion we get so often, and of course so much
of that translates into corporate America as well, but just
opportunities to acquire resources for me personally, just more opportunity there.
And so I said, Okay, if I know that I'm
going to make that trade off, it's like what are
(26:07):
the what's the what's the dance that I'm always playing?
And that's really what it is for me. Where it's
you know, it's not a perfect place, but I have
been able to find a really good team of people
that I genuinely enjoy working with. And then of course
I also have my motives of how can I create
new outcomes for black folks within the context of wealth
management and use pol do there exactly? As a researcher, Yeah,
(26:30):
So I cover within wealth management the research that allows
us to create mental models around our clients that then
informs the kinds of products that we create and ultimately
market to our clients. And so within wealth management, we
have advice services where someone might say I want to
work with a financial advisor, and there are different product
(26:51):
offerings for that. And we also have self directed investing
online investing where people can kind of self service and
we have a product for that. And so I and
a lot of time I'll go to people's homes, I'll
interview them, I'll talk to them, hey, like, how do
you think about wealth? How do you think about investing?
How has it changed over time? I, as a researcher,
listening and gathering all of this data across all of
(27:12):
these different people that I speak to then say to
our product partners and our other stakeholders, this should be
the direction with which we strategically think about the buildout
of the products that we have. So that's the kind
of work that I do. And is unsurprising is that
when you're talking with a bunch of really affluent, high
net worth folks. The majority of them historically have been
(27:34):
white men, And so when I say I'm going to
people's homes, is usually white men's homes that I'm going to,
and I'm talking to them. But I'm always thinking through
how can I create opportunities to interview black folks, to
bring them into the office so people can see them,
to see that black wealth is also a reality, and
to create just considerations for different experiences that have been
(27:57):
really just anchored on this one experience within the business.
And so that for me is always my kind of
call to action while I'm in these spaces that are
make no mistake giving me resources to live the life
that I live, But it's really how can I use
it in service of more than just myself?
Speaker 2 (28:14):
You know, well, thank you. I know we have a
hard stop. I'm going to shout out the in the
in the show notes. Although we didn't get you have
to come back. We can talk about your your passion
project with Kelly. But doctor Rachel Lay, thank you so much.
Congratulations on the book be a fam Go check it out.
The book is Black Capitalist a blueprint for what is possible?
(28:37):
It's a great it's just a great book to get
you thinking and maybe like help help us all become
little corporate spies, because it matters, it really does. All right,
go be anti anti because for real, that's the most
I learned about you. I'm like, oh, you're good people.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
Attah No, this has been a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Six
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