Hey BA Fam!
This week, Mandi is diving into a conversation that every woman needs to hear. She’s joined by two powerhouse doctors—Dr. Uché Blackstock, author of the New York Times Bestselling book, Legacy: A Black Physician Reckons With Racism in Medicine, and Dr. Jessica M. Shepherd, author of Generation M: Living Well in Perimenopause —for a raw, real, and eye-opening talk all about women’s health, with a special focus on menopause, healthcare equity, and what it really means to advocate for yourself in the doctor’s office.
These two trailblazing women break down the myths around hormone replacement therapy, open up about their personal journeys in medicine, and don’t hold back when it comes to calling out the racial and gender disparities baked into our healthcare system. From fighting bias in exam rooms to why representation in medicine literally saves lives, this episode is packed with truth bombs and takeaways you don’t want to miss.
Whether you’re navigating midlife changes or just trying to get the care you deserve, consider this your crash course in taking charge of your health—and your story.
Follow Dr. Uché Blackstock
https://www.instagram.com/ucheblackstockmd/
Follow Dr. Jessica Shepherd
https://www.instagram.com/jessicashepherdmd/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
You know, it's interesting because I actually had my my
annual mammogram an ultrasound a few weeks ago, and they
found a mask and that had to be worked up.
So far it's okay, but I literally was just like
thinking to myself, Oh my goodness, like all of the
thoughts going went through my head, like my kids, my will,
like all of this stuff, and just thinking about like
what my mom was going through when she was sick
(00:22):
and when she was ill, right, and just thinking like
I really have to take care of myself, like I
really take care of myself. You know, everything's go'na be fine,
but just like recognizing you know that you know we're not.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Always going to be healthy.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Things will come up, but you know, really living in
your purpose and taking care of yourself, thinking to myself,
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Hey be a fan, what's up. It's Mandy Money.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
I am so honored to introduce the guests on today's episode.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
At this point they've left.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
I just love us so much to be able to
come to this show and have conversations with women who
are so damn rare. I know, we all hope that
these women will become less rare. There won't be a
day in the future where we only make up less
than ten percent of physicians in America and less than
like three percent of black female physicians in America, and
(01:21):
where the health outcomes for us or just y'all know,
you don't need me to harp on it. You know
the research statistics how poorly our outcomes can be in
this country when it comes to healthcare, and how important
it is for us to advocate for one another. And
I'm joined today by two powerhouses, doctor U. J. Blackstock,
the author of the New York Times best selling book Legacy,
(01:42):
a Black Physician Reckons with Racism in Medicine, and doctor
Jessica M. Shepherd, Doctor Jessica M. Shepherd, who is the
chief medical officer of Hymns and Hers. She has her
own practice, her own gynecological practice, and she is the
author of pretty much the handbook to perry menopause and
to men pause. So I'll be gifting this book to
basically anyone in my world, and I think you should too,
(02:04):
who is a woman, because we're all.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Going to go through this at some point, right. So
her book is called.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Generation M Living Well in Perimonopause and Menopause, And these
books are very different, and it's a privilege to even
have these two women show up in the same space
with one another. I was really excited to hear that
neither of them had met in person before like they were.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Of course we're.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
Aware of each other in the same space, but hadn't
actually been interviewed with the same platform. So it's cool
that they got together, that they got to share and
be in community with one another. But yeah, these are
two very different books. I would say Generation M is
like the handbook that you want on your night in
your nightstands war. I don't care if you're twenty seven,
you're fifty seven, you want to have this book handy
when it comes to entering the later stages of our years.
(02:47):
And really, for me, it's like the guidebook that I
know I'm going to be turning to when anything changes
with my reproductive health as I get older. I'm in
my mid thirties now. I know a lot of our listeners. Listen, y'all,
we're between like twenty five to fifty. I feel like
so some of y'all are at various points in your journey.
But this book Generation M such an amazing tool. She's
(03:09):
got practical tips on lifestyle changes that we can make,
because not everything is about getting injected with hormones, although
of course she gets into that and debunks some of
the most harmful myths about hormone replacement therapy as it
pertains to menopause, but also just talks about like the
real lifestyle shifts we could be making every day so
that we can go through these changes and have it
(03:30):
not have such a detrimental impact on our health or
overall health outcomes. And what I've learned from Generation M
her book is that menopause is going to happen to
so many of us, right, but some of the symptoms
of menopause, the sleeplessness, for example, is a big contributor
to like there's like a cascading effect where if we're
not able to get our sleep, then that leads to
(03:51):
weight gain, which can put us at higher risk for
chronic conditions like heart disease and can make it harder
to control diabetes, like high blood pressure can be in issues.
And then obviously our moods, how many of us can
become like so dysregulated and find it so hard to
cope with everyday situations and challenges because we're just genuinely
not getting enough sleep and we're uncomfortable because we have
(04:13):
these hot flashes, or we have pain and cramping and
like all these symptoms. And if we don't have holistic
health care, if we're not really advocating for ourselves and
getting the support that we need to get through this phase,
how it can actually continue. Like you know, osteoporosis is
even linked to an undermanaged or menopause in some places,
So like we really need to be on top of this,
And this is the book that I would get for
(04:35):
any woman in my life. I also feel like, if
you're a daughter, which so many of us are, talk
to your mom about what she went through, and it
may take a few tries, like my own mother, Like
sometimes I'm like still putting the pieces together. I'm like, Mom,
did you do hormone replacement therapy when it was your menopause?
Was that when I was in college? Like what was happening?
And there's a lot to be learned. But I just
feel like we are privileged to be this generation where
(04:58):
we're actually going to have elders who can teach us
something and can make it like remove some of the
stigma and just make us more aware of what can
happen so that we can actually own this transition. Like
there's a stat in her book that she shares that women,
we're gonna live forty percent of our lives postmenopausal. That's
a lot of life left to live, so to have
(05:18):
the best shot at having a healthy, happy life. Like,
there's some changes and habits we can be adopting now
that can ensure that we can go through that change
and come out the other side and still live and
be strong and healthy and show up for ourselves, our communities,
all the things. And now, doctor Blackstock, this is a
special one. Her book Legacy a Black Physician reckons with
(05:38):
racism and medicine. So doctor Blackstock's book, well, I would
say doctor Shepherd's book is more on the here's what
you can do, and here are the steps, and here
are the symptoms and all of that. Doctor Blackstock's book
is a memoir so interwoven with her own incredible story
of being the daughter of a black physician. Her mother,
the original doctor Blackstock, raised Ucha and her twin sister
(05:59):
own in Brooklyn and what went to Harvard Medical School,
graduated from there, and then her two daughters followed in
her footsteps. Literally they became the first legacy black female
legacies to graduate from Harvard Medical School, so meaning the
fact that their mother went there and that they were
their daughters and they also graduated from there.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
They were the first.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
So their story is just incredibly inspirational and unfortunately and tragically,
oo Jay's mom, the original doctor Blackstock, she passed away
tragically at the age of forty seven. She was diagnosed
with a form of leukemia. And despite being a physician
herself and being so healthy and I mean running marathons
(06:39):
and you know, doing a garden in their backyard and
you know, all of the resources that she had, she
still succumbed to that disease and leaving Ooja and her
twin sister one to really, at the age of nineteen,
move into their paths pursuing their careers in medicine and
doing without their mom.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
It's it, truly.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
She looks at the word legacy from all all sides.
And yes, there's a lot in the book. I mean,
you're gonna you're gonna like me, like I think a
lot of us know that black bodies were used and
abuse in the medical profession in so many ways that
there are tools today that were invented because they were
created by using and abusing black bodies and using us
(07:18):
as guinea pigs and test objects without our consent or knowledge.
And that's covered in the book. But I would say
what really struck me about the book Legacy is just
her personal story, because at it's heart, it's a story
of how a black woman navigated a career path and
was able to thrive and survive while being one of
the few, the only the difference, and having her mother's
(07:40):
legacy behind her and so many things kind of working
in her favor, and how she still ran up against
these institutions that were not.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Built for her.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
It doesn't matter if you're in the medical field. I
think anyone a black woman in corporate America today can
relate to what doctor Blackstock shares in her memoir. I
can't recommend it enough. Get the audiobook with the ebook,
tell your library to stock it. And we got to
support this book. It is such an incredible story and
I've shared, you know on my show, like my experience
(08:08):
was with my dad, who my whole dad's side of
the family black impovers, growing up in Atlanta, not having
access to healthcare, treating the er like their primary care doctor.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
And still like so many of them.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
I could go down the list of my dad's siblings,
I think there were six of them in total, and
how many of them passed away from complications from chronic
conditions like diabetes, high blood pressure. How many of them
were on dialysis or currently on dialysis because they have
chronic kidney failure, they're trying to get a transplant, they
can't get one. I'm living this every day, and I'm
and like seeing my dad moved through the medical system,
(08:42):
seeing my sister recently moved to the medical system, and
how crucial it is for us to know what we're
up against so that when we go into these spaces,
we don't for a second hesitate to advocate for ourselves,
to bring a family member, a friend, anyone who can
just be a second pair of eyes, a second pair
of ears for us and help advocate for ourselves. I mean,
my dad had me, my brother, and my sister in there.
(09:04):
We were annoying the heck out of all his doctors
and nurses all the time, and I didn't feel bad
for a second because that's just what we have to
do as we're working through this system that in so
many ways gives us a short end of the stick.
So I hope that this conversation is inspiring. I hope
that it makes you think. I hope it encourages you
to not neglect your health and to advocate for yourself.
(09:28):
I also hope that it shines a light on the
superheroes like Doctor Shepherd, Doctor Blackstock, and how.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
They are doing the Lord's work.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
They are paving the path so that we can show
up and get the treatment that we deserve, and they're
actually doing it in a way where they're still taking
care of themselves and they are still thriving and living
their best lives. And I think that's such an important message.
And we do get into that a little bit, like
do you ever just wish you could show up to
work and just clock out and not have to then
(09:58):
go testify at Congress or defend your entire practice against
this anti DEI crusade that's happening in this country right now,
And to hear them tell it like, no, this is
the calling and this is the work, and we're proud
to have this great of an impact. I think it's
a message that I personally really needed to hear. So
let me take a quick break and we will come
(10:19):
back with my conversation with the incredible doctors Shepherd and Blackstock.
Please run and get their books. Generation m by doctor
Shepherd and Legacy a Black Doctor Reckons with Racism and
Medicine by doctor Blackstock. Don't forget to hit follow on
Brown Ambition. Make sure that you are following us on
YouTube as well. We are at Brown Ambition Podcast on
(10:43):
all socials. Drop me a note if this episode resonates
with you, if you want me to do more episodes
like this, ba fam, I do it for you, all right,
So that I'll take a quick break, be right back
with my conversation with doctors Blackstock and Shepherd. So this
podcast has been around for ten years. We center women
of color in conversations that typically relate to personal finances
(11:04):
and business. But the reason that I'm so excited to
have y'all on the show today is because there is
so much that it's still left to be done when
it comes to racial equity and healthcare. So who better
than the two of y'all to be here for this conversation.
I want to kick off actually with a question that
definitely occurred to me when I was reading doctor Blackstock's book,
(11:24):
Doctor Shepherd, Yours is a little bit less on your
personal journey, which I would love to talk to you about,
doctor Blackstock. You're so open and candid about your journey
through your career. I feel like for both of y'all
being entrenched in this world where you're talking to this
marginalized group of people we're talking to us, there must
be an emotional toll that this takes. How do y'all
take care of yourselves? How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Okay? Yeah, I'm happy to answer that.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
I feel like it's interesting because I feel like, you know,
I've been having a lot of book events and speaking events,
and it's always so wonderful because someone of the audience
will always ask me, how are you taking care of yourself?
I feel very cared for in that way. I would say,
I'm very very intentional about it. So one, I have
a wonderful therapist who has has held me down for
(12:10):
the last five six years, who has seen me through
career transitions, divorce, just so many different changes, and who
affirms who I am and where I am in this.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
In this world.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
So so that is really important for me. But I
also am very thoughtful about what I say yes and
no too, because I know that I have only.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
So much of a bandwidth.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
I'd be responsible to myself and my children, and I
can't say yes to everything, even though often I would
love to. So it has to be a hell yes.
And I actually probably say no to maybe like ninety
nine percent of the requests of me. Yeah, yeah, because
I have to really be into making sure that you know,
I go deplete myself and then obviously I know doctor
(12:56):
Shepherd probably does the same, but I really ties like
my sleep. I always make sure I try to get
my eat out or to sleep. Obviously, when I'm traveling
it's harder, but even my kids know, like I go
to bed at nine thirty, like I am, I'm done.
I go to bed at nine thirty to get my sleep.
And I also, you know, work out in different ways
(13:18):
like strength training, and you know, I go on my
walks and listen to my podcast. So I just make
sure I make time for myself to rest and restore.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
I love that.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
Yeah, And I think you know, in the journey of
this specific field, when you are doing something that there's
not a lot of representation of what you look like
in that field, and you know, and just from the numbers,
I think it's like six to seven percent of black
people in medicine across the entire nation, and so that
that statistic is staggering in then also being a female, right,
(13:51):
So there's a lot of different context to that. And
what I will say is during the process of getting
where I am, I think there was so much numbing
because you're just like, I just got to get through this.
That a lot of times we don't realize that we
are numbing. And so part of my process in taking
care of myself has been that inward, look at what
(14:12):
trauma is, because it's always not this categorical, like sentinel
event of when we think of trauma, but it's those
things that happened to us along the way and it's
not the actual event. It's what happens to us inside
and from that what we choose to work with and
moving forward.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
I want to talk about entrepreneurship. So, doctor Shepherd, you're
currently you're back to Corporate Gurley. You're at Hymn's and hers, Yeah,
and you are the chief medical officer, Is that correct.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
Yes, chief medical officer of hers. Last year I took
that position during the launch of my book, but I
also have my practice, So that's the entrepreneurial side of.
Speaker 6 (14:49):
You're still seeing patients.
Speaker 5 (14:51):
Yeah, still finding the balance in that and again restructuring
how to best utilize my time. But being back in
that type of space outside of clinical medicine, but still
yielding to giving information on a broad perspective to people,
and then still seeing patients on a day to day basis,
really is able to integrate both of those.
Speaker 4 (15:12):
Well, Doctor Blackstock, you obviously you're still full time with
Advancing Health Equity. Correct, that's the consultantim that you started
in tandem because you were still working practicing medicine. I
want to talk to both of y'all about that that
decision to start your own for you, doctor Shepherd, your
own practice, for doctor Blackstock, your consultancy, and what that
journey was like for you, Doctor Shepherd, Start with you
(15:35):
and how are you sort of, like you said, balancing
those two. What's it like.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
What's it been like?
Speaker 5 (15:40):
Yeah, the balance is everything, and that's really again going
back to the self work of ensuring that I know
what I'm doing, having clarity, making that process as clean
as I can. Obviously room for mistakes, but learning from those.
But I think the reason I really truly believed I
had to leave clinical medicine was what I was doing
in patients health, like.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
What am I really doing for you?
Speaker 5 (16:02):
And what I felt what I was doing for them
was actually not helpful because it was these short, intermittent
visits that were not impactful, not able to really change
the course or trajectory of their mindset, their lifestyle habits
really forming the relationship. So if we're not doing that,
then we're actually not impacting, which you can clearly see
in statistics of what we see in healthcare. We have
(16:23):
the best healthcare system in the world, but yet we
are still suffering from so many different things. Seven of
ten chronic diseases are preventable through lifestyle, So we're missing
it somewhere. And I think that missing is the relationship
and the connection and really being able to offer that
to patients. And I was just like, the more that
(16:43):
I fight the thing that is pushing against me, then
I'm not going to make change. So I have to
find another path in order to do that. And yes,
I'll see less patients, but now I'm being more impactful
and intentional with what I'm able to give them.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
And do you think that that? So going into your
own practice, I mean that comes with me. You're you're
in a new space right now, you define the physical
space and the administrative side of things. Was that was
there a learning curve there or did you feel prepared.
Speaker 6 (17:09):
To deep learning curve?
Speaker 5 (17:12):
Because the funny thing is I have my MBA, So
you know, you're like, I have my MBA, I'm good,
and then real life is like you really good, and
you're like, so I'm going to retract that statement, And
this is where real life comes into what are you doing?
It's it's the hard knocks of life, right So the
things that you don't account for, the things that you
never thought had to be part of a practice now
(17:33):
do and so that growth to me, you know, growth
is everything about who we are, the one point zero
version going to the two point zero version, and why
would you want to stay stagnant? So this has really
pushed me into forums that I never thought I would
be in thought processes, learning to deal with people, people management,
all of that comes into play.
Speaker 6 (17:53):
And I think that hiring, firing.
Speaker 5 (17:56):
Those things can be very uncomfortable and I never had
to do those before. And so now to have to
take that on while still practicing the tenants of medicine
providing good clinical care.
Speaker 6 (18:07):
Man. But when I tell you, like looking.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Back, we're hitting four years, this year is really like
where I was starting and to where I am now,
I'm just very grateful for the experience and all the
highs and the lows.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
Congratulations, doctor Blockstack. Did you ever consider opening your own practice?
I mean you took that, you took a much different route.
I'm curious.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Yeah, well, I mean I'm a board certified emergency medicine position,
so I guess.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I could have opened like my own urging care.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
But I think for me, you know, I was in
academics feeling very small, like feeling like there was so
much more that I wanted to do. And that doctor
Sheper talks about, you know, being able to make an impact.
And it's interesting because I was talking to some college
students yesterday who were reading my book, and they said,
you love academics, You don't. You don't practice clinical medicine anymore,
don't you feel badly? And I said no, I said no, no, no,
(18:54):
you don't realize that there are so many different ways
that we can make an impact, and I actually felt like,
what you say, I know, no, no, but I know.
But I told them, I said, oh, but listen, you
can't imagine the things I've been able to do since
I made this decision to start my consultancy, because I've
testified in front of Congress, I have been able to
(19:16):
do things that impact many many people decide like the
one on one care that I do, which is also
I used to do, which also is very very important.
But I think that it's really important for us, especially
as a woman of color, to really think about like, how.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Can we really how can we be in alignment? How
can we follow our purpose?
Speaker 1 (19:34):
And how can we be in roles other than the
ones that have We've been traditionally thought like that you
are like in a box and you're supposed to be
doing that that you know, we don't. We don't recognize
that there is abundance, right, There's so much that we
can do, and there's so much impact that we can
we can make.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
I want to give y'all a chance again.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
Your soapbox about like a myth in your fields that
just drives you nuts, And they're like, how.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Are people still not getting it?
Speaker 4 (20:01):
Doctor Shepherd? I imagine it's around HRT. Yeah, and replacement
in that one study that was done twenty something years ago.
And doctor Blackseck, I'm curious about you, but let me
not put words in your mouth.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Doctor Shepherd, you go first.
Speaker 5 (20:13):
Yeah, there's a myth on hormone replacement therapy which was
a study done twenty years ago. The study actually was good,
it was what the messaging came from it, which is
why we should, like clinicians and scientists actually interpret results
and not let media have the ability to share what
they think is the message. And so you know, when
I think of the disservice done to women over the
(20:35):
amount of time that we were like, oh my gosh,
running streets, this is bad for you. Is that's now
where we are as far as trying to reclaim or
rebrand the importance of hormones. But one thing I do
want to make very clear is that when we think
of all health and you know uch can definitely agree
with me on this, is when we think of communities
of color and black and brown communities. Is that still
(20:58):
when there is a chain, a new idea, or a
new study, we always are the last to learn about it,
implement it into get the best fund of knowledge, the access,
and that I see now happening in the menopause field
is that one Black women experience it usually worse and
more intense and for longer duration when we think of
typical hot flashes and night sweats.
Speaker 6 (21:20):
So here we are suffering it from.
Speaker 5 (21:22):
The most longest and more intense, and yet we still
have maybe not even the breadth of the gap that
was there, and then also the access. And so this
is why I find it so imperative that we do
have this representation in the menopause space, because, like I
refuse to have our women who are suffering the most
left behind and then increasing our risk not only for
(21:44):
just miserable symptoms at the time, but that also has
implications on light long term care. Heart disease increases the
more intense your hot flashes are, dementia. So I'm like, okay,
we're not doing that again for this little bucket of healthcare,
which is a big bucket because everyone women will go
through menopause like you can't evade it. So that to
me is one of the myths that I won just
(22:05):
from a study perspective I want to debunk. But two,
when it comes to the community of women that need
this knowledge and education so that they can do better
for themselves. I'm like, we're not doing this again. We're
not playing this whole template of communities of color don't
get the same access and information that they should.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
But you're one person.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
I mean, I know how.
Speaker 6 (22:25):
We should try and clone me, and we've tried. It
just didn't work out too well.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Well, Brown and Fish can help amplify that message. Yeah,
I mean, I've been doing the show for ten years.
I started when I was twenty seven. I'm thirty seven now.
My former co host Tiffany's in her mid forties. She
was just telling me like, oh, no, I won't put
her business out there.
Speaker 6 (22:42):
Well we did, but we won't tell her.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
But like, I'm not Hippa, you know, I don't have
any Hippa regulations for me. Go, so just yell at me, Tiffany.
But she had talked about on the show too, just
like the Perry, you know, Perry coming. And I feel
feel lucky and so privileged to be maybe the first
generation who's going to have elders who actually will talk
(23:03):
to me about it, right, And I just feel like
that's the first step. Like I texted my mom before,
because I knew I was talking to you. It's like, Mom,
did you ever try hormone replacement therapy? I think I
heard she's sixty five and she said, you know, I
went through so much in my forties and fifties. Maybe
it was menopause, I don't know. She had so much
else happening, and.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
She didn't first. And she's a white woman.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
I'll put that like, so she's a white woman, so
you think she'd get all the good good but she
she did not first learn about HRT or like was
really taken seriously by her ob until she was in
her late fifties early sixties, and by then it's like
for her it didn't make a lot of sense exactly.
Speaker 6 (23:43):
And so there again is that gap.
Speaker 5 (23:45):
So I thank you for calling her too, because see
how like the more you know at a younger age,
you can still invite her into the conversation, which then
you can pass on to Tiffany, who were not really mentioning,
but we are mentioning.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Oh, I'm giving her this book post taste. I'm a
little bit early.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
I'm like, well it doesn't really apply to me, Yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
We'll pass it around.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
It'll be dog eared, So, you know, menopause one of
the things that I with my mother that was always
interesting to me because she dealt with some chronic pain
like fibromyalgia, and she had so many things and so
many doctors who didn't believe her, and there was so
much disinformation, and for her, I think sometimes she would
be defensive if anyone suggested it could be menopause symptoms.
(24:28):
I think for her it felt like, that's just menopause. Y'all,
ladies go through it. Do you encounter that at all
like this?
Speaker 5 (24:35):
I would say that's one of the first things that
women come in with is the stigma, right.
Speaker 6 (24:39):
And so just a little hint here all of that.
Speaker 5 (24:42):
When you think of women's health and not as being
able to explain that or honor that or embrace it,
a lot of that has to do with patriarchy.
Speaker 6 (24:49):
Right, Let's not give them the ability.
Speaker 5 (24:52):
To embrace that and go through that in a way
where they are not ashamed to talk about it, because
shame then can keep you quiet and we don't have
to deal with it. And then on the other side
is when we look at women, how they're valued in
society today usually has to do a run of reproductive
age frame, right, whether you have kids or not, Like
your worth is usually valued in what you can do,
(25:13):
i e. Bringing you know, a child into the world,
and then after that, which obviously you're now out of
that reproductive frame in menopause, it's like, thanks so much
for your work. Go over here, We're going to escort
you to a nice black box here in a closet
and we'll lock the door.
Speaker 6 (25:26):
Thank you for your time. And so that creates this.
Speaker 5 (25:29):
Ecosystem of well, I'm not talking about it, and I'm
just going to keep quiet about it and suffer.
Speaker 6 (25:34):
And we don't have to do that. We don't have
to live like that.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Yeah, yeah, I wish that had a I wish it
had been different for her. But we're here at Brown
Ambition where we're at least going to make a different
for our audience.
Speaker 6 (25:46):
Yes we will.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
Doctor Blackstock, all right, your turn to be on your soapbox.
When you think about I know there's so many and
you do such a good job and your book legacy
bringing up research and insight into racist practices and medicine
that I think too many of us as women of color,
are aware of. But if there was a myth or
(26:08):
a misunderstanding. What would that be for you?
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Well, I mean, I don't know if this is necessarily
a myth, but a lot of the work I do
and appicacy I do is around the undertreatment of pain
in black patients and especially in black women. And we
know there's a lot of gaslighting happening when we go
to seek care, and you know, we have these experiences
and we know that anecdotally this happens, but there's actually
(26:31):
a lot of data that shows that validates that.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
And so a lot of the work that.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I've been doing is actually working with medical schools around
integrating how pain is treated and cared for among communities
of color. But starting in medical school and talking about
where these deeply rooted myths about black people and pain
come from. Because people are you know, whether they you know,
(26:58):
are physicians or not, they're absorbing all of this messaging
that it's making them think that somehow our bodies are different,
somehow we're less sensitive to pain.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
And often what happens is if.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
You're not treating the pain or you're not investigating the
source of the pain, you're actually missing a diagnosis, you're
missing the reason why.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
So it's not just.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
That you know, being in pain causes emotional distress and
physical distress, you actually could be causing harm to patients.
And so this is obviously one of the you know
things I talk about a lot, but why advocating for
yourself as a patient is so important. I always tell
people to bring someone with you if you can, to
a doctor's visit or the emergency department, because when you're
(27:39):
not feeling your best, you can't really it's hard to
really advocate for yourself, like, really have clear questions for
your health professional about like what do you think is
going on once? What the top breathings you think, what
are red flags that should look out for, what's your plan?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
What's my follow up? Like really be clear about that because.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Unfortunately, the way the system is, we have to really
advocate for ourselves.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
I mean, you share in your book your own experience
and you were, oh my god, what a medical student.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah they had adis that was missed and I had
all these complications.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
Yeah, this was like something I feel like I could
diagnose because I watched Hella Gray's Anatomy on the Lady.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Even my twin sister, who was in school with me
at the time, told me I think you have appendicitis,
she told me the first visit.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Yeah, and still and you're being speculumed and like you know,
checked for like your sexual history.
Speaker 5 (28:30):
Can we just go back to that term, love it.
I'm going to start using speculumed.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
What a terrible device.
Speaker 5 (28:36):
It's a new term here on Brown Ambition speculatum vculumed.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
Listen I had anyway, I'm not going to get into
my birth stories, but I was like, get that thing
away from me at a certain point. Okay, doctor Shepherd,
I know that you have to go. I'm just going
to shut up for two minutes and let you say
whatever it is that you want to say about hymns
and hers, about what our listeners should understand about going
to their GINO and getting I go other checkups, anything
(29:02):
that you want to say that you think could be
most impactful.
Speaker 5 (29:04):
No pressure, Yeah, no, just this wonderful ability to have
this conversation, and especially the community that listens and really
tunes in. I would say I would love women and
men to when they hear this particular episode, is to
truly understand the value of themselves individually but also in
(29:24):
their community. I really have used a lot of mind
body connection in my practice and how I choose to
inform people of what they're going through, because a lot
of times we numb what's going on up here, and
our body does respond to that, whether it's chronic stress,
whether it's things that have happened in our lives currently
and in the past. Has a lot to do with
(29:45):
how we can show up, but also our physical manifestations
of health as well. And so if there's one thing
that I would want everyone to leave here with, as
we do have the ability to change our trajectory and health,
whether that's in menopause, whether that's even with just when
we look at chronic diseases like diabetes and hypertension, Like
(30:06):
we have that ability to really heal ourselves in the
way through our life, how we surround ourselves with people
and experiences, how we invest back into the community, and
then also how we treat ourselves inwardly so that we
have the tools to do all of this.
Speaker 6 (30:21):
So it's very multifaceted.
Speaker 5 (30:23):
I'm very fortunate in the course of that I've taken
through my journey in medicine. I mean, ucha you remember,
like going through like med school and residency alone, You're like,
how did I get through that. But on the other
side of it, all the journeys that we've taken. You know,
even though we've stepped outside of clinical medicine, the beauty
that we were able to see through seeing so many
patients at the intensity of illness that they were being
(30:44):
able to really bond with patients there now going into
different types of medicine and wellness and health. I am
so fortunate and glad that I can be where I
am to use my voice but also to encourage others
who are behind me trying to accomplish the same thing
that they too can accomplish that. So I would say,
we have the ability to fine tune our health, both
(31:06):
mind and body. And then I love being able to
be partnered with collaborative events podcasts such as Brown Ambition
to solidify the platform of what community means to everyone
and we all should be investing back into the community
and ourselves individually.
Speaker 4 (31:22):
I love that message. I can't thank you enough for
taking the time. I'm going to have you back.
Speaker 5 (31:27):
We should just do a whole like all three of
us like again, like do it again, and just like
make it like an every eight week occurrence.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Why not say less?
Speaker 4 (31:36):
It'll be like our checkup.
Speaker 6 (31:37):
Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
These are our chief.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Medical officers for Brown Ambision. All right, Doctor.
Speaker 4 (31:42):
Shepherd had to dip out because she is running her
own healthcare practice.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
How she's busy.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
But luckily I still have more to come with my
conversation with doctor j.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Blackstock.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
So stick around, be a fam I'm handy money, and
I will be right back.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
All right, be a faan.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
Let's jump back into my conversation with the incredible doctor J. Blackstock.
Doctor Blackstock, your story, I mean, first of all, I
just want to say thank you because I know it
may not have been so easy for you to share
so much of your personal journey in this book. And
I wonder if there was a version of this book
that was a little less like about your journey and
(32:17):
more just like your final chapter, where you're like, here's
everything that we should be right like, here's the you know,
very like cut and dry of it. Here's what's happening
in the medical system. That's that racism is making everything worse.
Here's how we fix it. Goodbye.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Well, you know it's interesting. Well, you know it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I think that like in talking about these issues sometimes
like the stories are really important. The storytelling piece, and
because I feel so connected. Mean, I've always felt like
I live in two worlds. Like I know, I had
that live experience as a black woman and as a
black patient, but I'm also a black physician and my
(32:53):
mother was. So I feel like very much embedded and
within medicine, whether I like it or not. I also
feel very call to you know, beat work in service
to our communities. And so I think writing the book
like that personal piece of it was really really important
because that's how you connect with readers.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Like, yeah, people want.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
To like know the history, they want to know like
the data, but how do you write it in a
way that it really like sticks with them, it resonates
with them. So actually, interestingly enough, I found it really
therapeutic to write this memoir because really it was sort
of like I did a lot of processing while I
was writing it, processing of losing my mother, right of
being at the same age. Actually you know, she died
(33:35):
at forty seven, I'm forty seven.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Now, the fact that the book is out, all of
this these sort of like this.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Alignment, right, thinking about if she were here, you know
what she would think and you know how she would feel.
But also the book. Probably if she was here, I
probably would not have the book, you know. So so
it's just like so many different ways of thinking about things.
But I did find I'm kind of like, I.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Don't think I'm an extrovert. I think I'm an ambrovert.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
But but I do love sharing my stories because when
I was going through a lot of these experiences, I
felt very, very isolated because you know, I didn't share
a lot. I felt almost like a failure at times.
And so I think it's important to tell our stories,
to be vulnerable, because then we actually.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Find that we're not alone, that there are other.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
People, not just in medicine and other fields, that have
gone through you know, the same experiences, right, And so
it was therapeutic writing this book.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
I'm really happy to hear that I'm actually working on
I'm my manuscript is due tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
I'm going to need good congratulation.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
I'm publishing with Hashet. The book is Brown Ambition, and
I also went all in with my personal story, and
as I was reading yours, I'm just like, oh, hell yeah,
this is the kind of book that I love and
it's the you know, it's the truth, and it's powerful.
And strapeutic as how I agree.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Yes, and we need to tell our stories.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Our stories are important, they need to be told, we
need to read them.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
So I'm so excited for you.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (35:08):
You know your book. Actually, for me, I was most
drawn toward because I think I'm a weirdo because I
come from journalism, so I was aware of some of
the terrible, traumatic truth of the history of how our
bodies were used in medicine to advance medicine in so
many ways, and how they were abused in that way.
And I think, for my own self protection, I think
(35:29):
a lot of us I kind of skim over that,
like in a way, I'm like, I don't want to
think about that. I just want to focus on your
inspiring story and how you were so resilient and following
you as a as a character, I wonder too. And
part of me feels like, oh, this is the perfect
It's a book for us, like women of color. But
it's also like I want every white physician in America
or any non black physician and even the black ones,
(35:52):
you know, because sometimes we internalize a bunch of crap too,
to read this.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
So how how's it been going? I mean, you wrote
this book.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
Abu a year now has the book, is the book
being is it reaching the hands of the people in
medicine who really need it?
Speaker 1 (36:06):
You know, it's really interesting that you asked that because
I was at a book talk like two weeks ago
and this like eighty year old white male hematologist, like
blood doctor. He came to me and said, doctor black Stuff,
we read your book. A group of us read your
book and we love it so much. I'm so ashamed
that there were so many things that I didn't know
(36:26):
that I didn't realize and we talked through it and
you know, it really electrified us. And I'm like, yes,
that's what I want. And I said, okay, so what
do you know? What do you what's your what's your action?
Like what's your next step? You know, because I want
you know, you know, so we're talking about things that
he can do. I always tell people like, it's not
just about reading the book, but it's about like, what
(36:47):
are you going to do now that you read the book,
Which is why I took that call to action at
the end to different key stakeholder groups, like because I
don't want you to be like, oh, I don't know
what to do?
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Now. Actually, someone even.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Emailed me and said, I read your book and I
know one of the things you mentioned was donating to
black led organizations, So what can I do? And so
I gave them a list, including like my nursery school,
Little Sun People, which is forty years old.
Speaker 4 (37:10):
Black women, O say, I always read the dedications.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
I love these.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Oh yes, Actually, it's so funny. When I was recording
the audiobook, the sound engineer and the director they said, honestly,
we've never seen an author have such a long acknowledgment
section and mentioned so many people. And I said, while
you have to understand that my village helped get me
to where I am today. I wouldn't have been able
to write this book. I wouldn't have had all the
(37:35):
experiences I had if I hadn't been lifted up by
all of these people, including my nursery school founder and director,
because her curriculum was like an afrocentric, culturally responsive.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Curriculum, one of the first in the country.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
And I knew from a very young age that as
a as a black person is a black woman in
this country, I knew who I always had a strong
sense of who I was, and that has helped me
get through a lot of really tough situations.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
I could cry thinking about how desperately I wish I
had a similar story for my education. I would have
saved so many years. Yeah, I think because I have
young boys now and they're they're they are I know yours, well,
yours are a bit older now because.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
You said six and eight in the book.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
Now yeah, oh I have a five and a two
year old. Oh okay, I really am, but I they are.
You know, they're going to be perceived as Latino men,
Hispanic men because my husband's Dominican and they're very fair skinned.
I'm at the point where I'm like, I want to
move to Brooklyn. They need to be around black people,
(38:43):
black women. They need to know their mama as black.
I love that part of their history, and they will.
They already do my five Mama on my curls poppin.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yes, love it, love it because yours certainly are yes
all things. You know.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
She had a deep condition moment.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
That's really good.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
In this political climate when DEI, everything that advancing health
equity you're a consultant firm stands for and works toward
is being gutted and being dismantled and under so much fire.
How has that changed your work at all? And how
are you doing in this?
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (39:22):
I mean, you know, I think by nature I try
to be positive.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I will admit that I am.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Very unsettled and disturbed by what is happening, especially for
the threats to defund universities.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
That have DII programmed.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Right, So I'm I was glad to hear that Harvard
is suing the Trump administration around that.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
And you know, of.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Course, to me, that is like the lowest bar, Like,
of course, I think every university should should do that, right,
because that's definitely government overreach. But what I will say
is that this time.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Makes my work even more meaningful.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
To me, I didn't even I didn't think it would
even get to that point. But it's like the work
that we have been doing for the last six years
pre pandemic around health equity, around DEI within health health organizations,
it's even more important. Obviously, the challenge is that a
lot of organizations are pausing and trying to figure out
(40:20):
what's happening, and so yes, we are also seeing that
in terms of the client organizations we work for. So
this is not going to be an easy year for us.
We are like really thinking and that part of being
an entrepreneur is pivoting, right, So we actually just developed
an app called a Health Equity Champions Program so people,
so individuals can sign up to join a community of
(40:41):
folks who are interested in health equity. We do live lectures,
we do recorded lectures, we do workshops, so just like
a way for them to find community, because I think
in this time that's what we need amidst all the
chaos and the fear. Really, the I would say the
antidote to that is community in us being in community
to get so really trying to think about what are
(41:02):
innovative ways that we can still get folks who care
deeply about this work still engaged.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
Have you had any clients of yours organizations that have
like canceled a contract with you, pulled back.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
I don't want to tell you out, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
So definitely.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Yeah, we have had organizations that as of January February,
said we have to cancel this contract because we are
worried about this concern about this engagement we have is
around DEI, it's around health equity, and we can no
longer do that because we get funding from the government, right,
or we've had invoices pause, like we're waiting for invoices
(41:39):
to come in, but because like the thing, yes, yeah,
I know, because there is pauses happening and they're trying
to it's impacting us. So definitely scary, like kind of
scary and selling times. And even myself and I do
a lot of speaking events. I've had two host organizations
(42:00):
cancel on me. One because there what was a public
university because they had to get rid of all DEI
programs so they don't even have their di office that
originally invited me, and then saying with another with a
cancer center out west also canceled.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
How much business are you have you lost?
Speaker 1 (42:15):
I know, I know, I just see well at the
same time, so two things. One, there are still some
brave organizations that want to do the work, and we
also are just kind of being really thoughtful about how
we present the work. Now.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
You know, sometimes you have to.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Say, like we do trainings on psychological safety, right, like
you know, like how do we create environment where everyone
can show up as themselves?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
So kind of like the same work, but just kind.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Of framing it a little bit differently. And then also
I've been so on the road since the book came
out over a year ago, and I'm very grateful for it.
But actually I'm okay with a little bit of a
little break. And even if that break, it's not like.
Speaker 4 (42:58):
I'm the worst producer of a podcast. Sometimes because I'll
see a book as out, I'm like, I love this book,
I'm reading this book. I'm telling everyone about it. I
forget that I could just like have the hole I
can invite the author.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
So I's so neat.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Yes, you're probably like kind of MISTI no, oh no.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Because I have the podcast.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
But also we will have to talk another time about
like being a black author and what that means in
terms of marketing your book, because also it's really publishers
really leave it up to you, the author, to market
the book.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
They only spend about two percent of their revenue in marketing.
So other than that lead up to the pub date and.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Those few weeks after, you as the author are really
getting the message of your book out there.
Speaker 4 (43:44):
And I commend you because you went to medical school,
like you're a doctor, are you still practicing?
Speaker 1 (43:48):
And some no, no, no, So actually it's interesting because I
left academic medicine in December twenty nineteen and the pandemic hit.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
I was working in urgent care and I gave myself
five years.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
I said, I'm going to work with five years in
urgent care while I build up the Advancing Health Equity
the consulting firm. But everything happened in twenty twenty and
there was a need for me. They really come full
time to Dancing Health Equity. So my five year plan
became a two year plan. So had I stopped practicing
in twenty twenty one, which I could have never have imagined.
Every morning I wake up and I pinch myself because
(44:19):
I say, Wow, I'm really doing what I love and
what gives me purpose, and I could have never imagined it.
Speaker 4 (44:29):
How important do you think pop culture representations of medicine
are when it comes to inspiring more, especially more black
female physicians, because the statistics who share in the book,
how small the numbers are, And I think, you know,
across industries, but especially with medicine, because there's such a uphill.
Speaker 3 (44:46):
Yeah, yeah, the reason.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
But yeah, I'm wondering because I know I've seen actors
from like Gray's Anatomy talk about how they've inspired doctors,
but I'm like, what kind like thank God for Miranda Bailey,
but like, you know, show the Pit Is Out, which.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
Is I know, which I haven't watched because I typically
don't watch shows yet to bring Also, I'm kind of like,
I'm very critical, like is that accurate or not?
Speaker 3 (45:10):
Because SUPERA I know, I know, so I.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
Think I'm gonna have to I'm going to have to
watch it.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
But it's interesting because when I, you know, when the
pandemic hit and I was I became an MSNBC NBC
News medical contributor for many people with the first time
seeing a black position, a black women's position on TV
like Live like literally everyone and especially for black folks,
and so I recognized that was so important for me
to be the one that they look to for accurate
(45:40):
and responsible information. There are people who messaged me and said,
I got vaccinated because because of you. I ended up
sending my kids back to school because of you, because
you told me what you told us, what you were
doing with your kids.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
So that's why I.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
Think it's so important for g Yes, my barber, g
I know they know, so, so you know, I love
I would love to see more representations of us in
pop culture. It's interesting because I spoke to someone really
briefly who's interested in an optioning legacy, and they said,
oh my goodness, I could see a scripted series starring
(46:14):
Megan good just about like one part of the book
about you know, being an academic medicine and dealing with
your you know, going through a divorce and and you know,
and dealing with the workplace and seeing patients, you know,
And I'm like, oh, I love that.
Speaker 4 (46:29):
I mean, hell yeah, and has A has the same
dude from er that's like Noah Wiley, I mean, and
he's everyone's like, ooh, doctor.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
Daddy, like so cute.
Speaker 4 (46:41):
But I'm like, what about there's one black physician, one
black female physician who's kind of one, just one prominent one.
I watched the whole series already, So we have a
South Asian doctor. There's one black doctor, a dark skinned
woman with with locks, which I just love. Yes, yes,
he comes in. It's it's she comes in toward the end.
(47:02):
And I'm like, yes, another sister. But I feel like
the producers have red legacy. And I'll tell you why,
because in the first couple of episodes, there is a
sickle cell patient who comes into the er and I
just I see because you really handle that issue with
such care in your book, which I think is so important,
and the way that she's treated from the EMS team.
Speaker 3 (47:24):
And it's a woman of color in the er.
Speaker 4 (47:26):
Department who was like, no, she has sickle cell because
they think that she's for her pain. And this doctor
is being admonished by the er director for taking so
much time with patients and for because they're just like,
we got to get more clients, were you know, get
through patients have some.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
Kind of quota.
Speaker 4 (47:45):
I didn't know there was like quotas or goals of
how many patients you need to be like running through
when the ers are like that, did you ever feel
like you talk in the book about you know, hitting
your burnout point, but did you feel that you weren't
able to take so much care and like be so
compassionate towards your patients so that you can get through
(48:05):
more of them?
Speaker 2 (48:06):
No? No, no, no.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
I think it was that you're expected to do both right,
Like you're expected to like take really good care of
them but also be efficient. And there's some of my
colleagues who are amazing at that, like they can just
multitask really really well.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
But I feel like I always.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Felt like I wanted to spend a little bit more
time with my patients, and you just couldn't.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Becau time wouldn't allow it.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
And when you look at the board, there are like
twenty patients waiting to be seen, so that I mean,
it's hard.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Emergency medicine is tough. It's tough.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
Yeah. I think The Pit is a wonderful show.
Speaker 4 (48:37):
I don't mean to labor labor it, but a show
with a black were female.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
Like doctor at the heart of it just do so
much too.
Speaker 4 (48:46):
Because I'm like, how do we get more black women doctors?
Speaker 2 (48:49):
I would love that. So we're gonna manifest. We're going
to manifest them.
Speaker 4 (48:53):
Oh that would be so exciting. The whole world of
option in your blood did.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
You ever imagine?
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Never?
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Never? Never?
Speaker 3 (49:00):
All right, So in this.
Speaker 4 (49:02):
Space too, I worry for well, I'm I have concern
for you and for doctor Shepherd because it's not just
that there's few of us in the rooms that we
are in professionally, but sometimes like for example, I was
a personal finance reporter, a business reporter, and I was like,
I need to do a podcast that's going to like,
you know, really center women of color so that we
(49:22):
get access to this information. And then that turned into
a business. And and you as well, you know, you
you're an extremely accomplished physician, then you obviously you have
this higher calling and you want to do more and
have a bigger impact. Sometimes do you wish you could
just be a doctor? Like you could just have your
you know, get your mom's bag and you know, put
your name underneath it and like just go to work
(49:43):
and go home and like just be fine.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
I don't know, I feel like, you know what it is, like,
I definitely feel like I have a higher purpose and
there's so and I care so deeply about our community,
and I felt like, like I said earlier, I.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Think how can I have the most impact?
Speaker 1 (50:01):
But also yeah, definitely when I take care of myself
because I need to be in this world for the
long run.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
But addicacy is really important to me.
Speaker 4 (50:08):
Wow, hold space for that sometimes, Like, and it seems
like you have. I really admire that you have such
a holistic understanding of the work you're doing. But also like,
and it was woven through your book and I think
about your mother's last letter to you that you found
under the mattress, which is such a black mom thing
to do, like put it under that?
Speaker 3 (50:26):
Was it under the mattress?
Speaker 2 (50:27):
Up? Yes, it was.
Speaker 4 (50:29):
It was who knows what missives I'll have for my
I know, I know, matt maybe some cash you might
buy anyway. But in her letter in where she said,
you know, take care of yourself and put yourself first,
and I wonder if, like, was that something that you
felt like she really instilled in you and does that
help you, you know, keep things balancing?
Speaker 6 (50:49):
Yeah, yourself.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
It's interesting because I felt like, you know, definitely as
a nineteen year old when I was reading that, I.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
Was like, what is or what she so that? To me?
I was like, what is what is she talking about?
Like I didn't really get it. But now older, writing
the book and as a mother, as.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
A business owner, as a doctor, as a speaker, as
an author, like I didn't recognize the complexity.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
Of of who my mother was.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
Like at the time, she was just my mom, But
now who I am as a forty seven year old,
I'm like, damn, she was amazing. How did she do it?
And I wish she could have had more support? Yeah,
And I wish she could have had more support which
she didn't have to work so hard. I wish did
she didn't have to, you know, especially being the first
in her family to finish college and then go to
(51:29):
medical school and then try to have, you know, have
a career and then have kids, and it's just it's
a lot. It's a lot, you know. So I think
I reflected a lot on like, Wow, she really went
through it, and I love report, and I wish she
could have had more support.
Speaker 4 (51:44):
Do you feel like you're getting to live her next
chapter in a way? You mentioned you're the same age
now as when she passed away, and that she was considering,
you know, divorcing your father, and I don't know what else,
but you've really a divorce. What's that only been like
for you? And how do you think that's tied to Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
She's she's actually going to go to public health school too,
like she's going to like like she was going to
do like so much more.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
And so, you know, I definitely.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
Feel like I'm living a life that she made that
she probably would have wanted for herself, and.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
That you know, maybe because of.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
Just societal aspectations, personal expectations, that she couldn't really make
those decisions earlier on in her life. You know that
by the time she wanted to unfortunately, you know, she
passed away. You know, it's interesting because I actually had
my my annual mammogram an ultrasound a few weeks ago,
and they found a mass and that had to be
worked up. So far it's okay, But I literally was
(52:46):
just like thinking to myself, Oh, my goodness, like all
of the thoughts going went through my head, like my kids,
my will, like all of this stuff, and just thinking
about like what my mom was going through when she
was sick and when she was ill, right, and just
thinking like I really have to take care of myself,
like I really take care of myself. You know, everything's
(53:07):
gonna be fine, but just like recognizing we're not always
going to be healthy. Things will come up, but you know,
really living in your purpose and taking care of yourself.
Speaker 4 (53:18):
Thank you for mentioning the mammogram and so you've gotten
those annually and this was the first time.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Yes, yes, yeah, I'm very yeah, I'm very much like
I see what I'm supposed to do.
Speaker 2 (53:28):
I'm a good student.
Speaker 4 (53:30):
I'm really proud of you for saying that out loud.
I feel like a lot of times we hear about
stories from women after they've gone through the thing, very
far removed from it, and I think it's really brave
to acknowledge it while you're still in it. So I've
got a praying for thank you, thank you so much,
just one of those because of early get it out. Yes,
you know, it's like, don't you wish? Like sometimes you're like,
(53:51):
can you sign up for the not resilient track of life?
I know, haven't we had enough going on?
Speaker 1 (53:56):
Ya?
Speaker 4 (53:58):
That was pretty crazy enough? All right, I want to
be I know you probably have to. I just wish
we live next door to one another.
Speaker 2 (54:08):
I know. Well, if you ever come into Brooklyn, let
me know.
Speaker 4 (54:12):
Okay, we gotta do a whole show about devols.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
Oh oh yes, absolutely, yes. There's so much that I
learned from that.
Speaker 1 (54:19):
I couldn't get into it. I couldn't get into it.
It was like five years ago. I couldn't get into
it too much in the book because yeah, he's my
co parent and whatever.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
But there's a lot that I learned on that journey.
Speaker 4 (54:32):
Yeah, okay, all right, Well, thank you so much for
joining me on the podcast. Good luck with everything, Stay
in touch.
Speaker 3 (54:41):
Hey y'all.
Speaker 4 (54:42):
Thank you so much for tuning into this week's Brown
Ambition Podcast. If you're wondering, Okay, what can I do now?
While you can run out and get your copies of
doctor Blackstock's book and doctor Shepherd's books, you can also
check out their incredible work. I'm going to put their
social handles in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (54:56):
For this episode.
Speaker 4 (54:57):
You can DM me at Brown Ambition Podcast on g
Let me know what you thought of the show, let
me know if you want to hear more. And lastly,
like follow the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Make
sure that you share the show with at least one
or two, or three or five or ten of your
friends and family members today so that they can also
help spread the love and grow the show even more.
(55:18):
And just thank y'all, thank you so much for your
support and forgiving me this platform. All Right, I'm Mandy Money.
Until next time, this is Brown Ambition.
Speaker 3 (55:25):
Bye,
You know, it's interesting because I actually had my my
annual mammogram an ultrasound a few weeks ago, and they
found a mask and that had to be worked up.
So far it's okay, but I literally was just like
thinking to myself, Oh my goodness, like all of the
thoughts going went through my head, like my kids, my will,
like all of this stuff, and just thinking about like
what my mom was going through when she was sick
(00:22):
and when she was ill, right, and just thinking like
I really have to take care of myself, like I
really take care of myself. You know, everything's go'na be fine,
but just like recognizing you know that you know we're not.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Always going to be healthy.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Things will come up, but you know, really living in
your purpose and taking care of yourself, thinking to myself,
Oh my goodness.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Hey be a fan, what's up. It's Mandy Money.
Speaker 4 (00:53):
I am so honored to introduce the guests on today's episode.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
At this point they've left.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
I just love us so much to be able to
come to this show and have conversations with women who
are so damn rare. I know, we all hope that
these women will become less rare. There won't be a
day in the future where we only make up less
than ten percent of physicians in America and less than
like three percent of black female physicians in America, and
(01:21):
where the health outcomes for us or just y'all know,
you don't need me to harp on it. You know
the research statistics how poorly our outcomes can be in
this country when it comes to healthcare, and how important
it is for us to advocate for one another. And
I'm joined today by two powerhouses, doctor U. J. Blackstock,
the author of the New York Times best selling book Legacy,
(01:42):
a Black Physician Reckons with Racism in Medicine, and doctor
Jessica M. Shepherd, Doctor Jessica M. Shepherd, who is the
chief medical officer of Hymns and Hers. She has her
own practice, her own gynecological practice, and she is the
author of pretty much the handbook to perry menopause and
to men pause. So I'll be gifting this book to
basically anyone in my world, and I think you should too,
(02:04):
who is a woman, because we're all.
Speaker 3 (02:06):
Going to go through this at some point, right. So
her book is called.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
Generation M Living Well in Perimonopause and Menopause, And these
books are very different, and it's a privilege to even
have these two women show up in the same space
with one another. I was really excited to hear that
neither of them had met in person before like they were.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Of course we're.
Speaker 4 (02:25):
Aware of each other in the same space, but hadn't
actually been interviewed with the same platform. So it's cool
that they got together, that they got to share and
be in community with one another. But yeah, these are
two very different books. I would say Generation M is
like the handbook that you want on your night in
your nightstands war. I don't care if you're twenty seven,
you're fifty seven, you want to have this book handy
when it comes to entering the later stages of our years.
(02:47):
And really, for me, it's like the guidebook that I
know I'm going to be turning to when anything changes
with my reproductive health as I get older. I'm in
my mid thirties now. I know a lot of our listeners. Listen, y'all,
we're between like twenty five to fifty. I feel like
so some of y'all are at various points in your journey.
But this book Generation M such an amazing tool. She's
(03:09):
got practical tips on lifestyle changes that we can make,
because not everything is about getting injected with hormones, although
of course she gets into that and debunks some of
the most harmful myths about hormone replacement therapy as it
pertains to menopause, but also just talks about like the
real lifestyle shifts we could be making every day so
that we can go through these changes and have it
(03:30):
not have such a detrimental impact on our health or
overall health outcomes. And what I've learned from Generation M
her book is that menopause is going to happen to
so many of us, right, but some of the symptoms
of menopause, the sleeplessness, for example, is a big contributor
to like there's like a cascading effect where if we're
not able to get our sleep, then that leads to
(03:51):
weight gain, which can put us at higher risk for
chronic conditions like heart disease and can make it harder
to control diabetes, like high blood pressure can be in issues.
And then obviously our moods, how many of us can
become like so dysregulated and find it so hard to
cope with everyday situations and challenges because we're just genuinely
not getting enough sleep and we're uncomfortable because we have
(04:13):
these hot flashes, or we have pain and cramping and
like all these symptoms. And if we don't have holistic
health care, if we're not really advocating for ourselves and
getting the support that we need to get through this phase,
how it can actually continue. Like you know, osteoporosis is
even linked to an undermanaged or menopause in some places,
So like we really need to be on top of this,
And this is the book that I would get for
(04:35):
any woman in my life. I also feel like, if
you're a daughter, which so many of us are, talk
to your mom about what she went through, and it
may take a few tries, like my own mother, Like
sometimes I'm like still putting the pieces together. I'm like, Mom,
did you do hormone replacement therapy when it was your menopause?
Was that when I was in college? Like what was happening?
And there's a lot to be learned. But I just
feel like we are privileged to be this generation where
(04:58):
we're actually going to have elders who can teach us
something and can make it like remove some of the
stigma and just make us more aware of what can
happen so that we can actually own this transition. Like
there's a stat in her book that she shares that women,
we're gonna live forty percent of our lives postmenopausal. That's
a lot of life left to live, so to have
(05:18):
the best shot at having a healthy, happy life. Like,
there's some changes and habits we can be adopting now
that can ensure that we can go through that change
and come out the other side and still live and
be strong and healthy and show up for ourselves, our communities,
all the things. And now, doctor Blackstock, this is a
special one. Her book Legacy a Black Physician reckons with
(05:38):
racism and medicine. So doctor Blackstock's book, well, I would
say doctor Shepherd's book is more on the here's what
you can do, and here are the steps, and here
are the symptoms and all of that. Doctor Blackstock's book
is a memoir so interwoven with her own incredible story
of being the daughter of a black physician. Her mother,
the original doctor Blackstock, raised Ucha and her twin sister
(05:59):
own in Brooklyn and what went to Harvard Medical School,
graduated from there, and then her two daughters followed in
her footsteps. Literally they became the first legacy black female
legacies to graduate from Harvard Medical School, so meaning the
fact that their mother went there and that they were
their daughters and they also graduated from there.
Speaker 3 (06:18):
They were the first.
Speaker 4 (06:19):
So their story is just incredibly inspirational and unfortunately and tragically,
oo Jay's mom, the original doctor Blackstock, she passed away
tragically at the age of forty seven. She was diagnosed
with a form of leukemia. And despite being a physician
herself and being so healthy and I mean running marathons
(06:39):
and you know, doing a garden in their backyard and
you know, all of the resources that she had, she
still succumbed to that disease and leaving Ooja and her
twin sister one to really, at the age of nineteen,
move into their paths pursuing their careers in medicine and
doing without their mom.
Speaker 3 (06:56):
It's it, truly.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
She looks at the word legacy from all all sides.
And yes, there's a lot in the book. I mean,
you're gonna you're gonna like me, like I think a
lot of us know that black bodies were used and
abuse in the medical profession in so many ways that
there are tools today that were invented because they were
created by using and abusing black bodies and using us
(07:18):
as guinea pigs and test objects without our consent or knowledge.
And that's covered in the book. But I would say
what really struck me about the book Legacy is just
her personal story, because at it's heart, it's a story
of how a black woman navigated a career path and
was able to thrive and survive while being one of
the few, the only the difference, and having her mother's
(07:40):
legacy behind her and so many things kind of working
in her favor, and how she still ran up against
these institutions that were not.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Built for her.
Speaker 4 (07:48):
It doesn't matter if you're in the medical field. I
think anyone a black woman in corporate America today can
relate to what doctor Blackstock shares in her memoir. I
can't recommend it enough. Get the audiobook with the ebook,
tell your library to stock it. And we got to
support this book. It is such an incredible story and
I've shared, you know on my show, like my experience
(08:08):
was with my dad, who my whole dad's side of
the family black impovers, growing up in Atlanta, not having
access to healthcare, treating the er like their primary care doctor.
Speaker 3 (08:19):
And still like so many of them.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
I could go down the list of my dad's siblings,
I think there were six of them in total, and
how many of them passed away from complications from chronic
conditions like diabetes, high blood pressure. How many of them
were on dialysis or currently on dialysis because they have
chronic kidney failure, they're trying to get a transplant, they
can't get one. I'm living this every day, and I'm
and like seeing my dad moved through the medical system,
(08:42):
seeing my sister recently moved to the medical system, and
how crucial it is for us to know what we're
up against so that when we go into these spaces,
we don't for a second hesitate to advocate for ourselves,
to bring a family member, a friend, anyone who can
just be a second pair of eyes, a second pair
of ears for us and help advocate for ourselves. I mean,
my dad had me, my brother, and my sister in there.
(09:04):
We were annoying the heck out of all his doctors
and nurses all the time, and I didn't feel bad
for a second because that's just what we have to
do as we're working through this system that in so
many ways gives us a short end of the stick.
So I hope that this conversation is inspiring. I hope
that it makes you think. I hope it encourages you
to not neglect your health and to advocate for yourself.
(09:28):
I also hope that it shines a light on the
superheroes like Doctor Shepherd, Doctor Blackstock, and how.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
They are doing the Lord's work.
Speaker 4 (09:36):
They are paving the path so that we can show
up and get the treatment that we deserve, and they're
actually doing it in a way where they're still taking
care of themselves and they are still thriving and living
their best lives. And I think that's such an important message.
And we do get into that a little bit, like
do you ever just wish you could show up to
work and just clock out and not have to then
(09:58):
go testify at Congress or defend your entire practice against
this anti DEI crusade that's happening in this country right now,
And to hear them tell it like, no, this is
the calling and this is the work, and we're proud
to have this great of an impact. I think it's
a message that I personally really needed to hear. So
let me take a quick break and we will come
(10:19):
back with my conversation with the incredible doctors Shepherd and Blackstock.
Please run and get their books. Generation m by doctor
Shepherd and Legacy a Black Doctor Reckons with Racism and
Medicine by doctor Blackstock. Don't forget to hit follow on
Brown Ambition. Make sure that you are following us on
YouTube as well. We are at Brown Ambition Podcast on
(10:43):
all socials. Drop me a note if this episode resonates
with you, if you want me to do more episodes
like this, ba fam, I do it for you, all right,
So that I'll take a quick break, be right back
with my conversation with doctors Blackstock and Shepherd. So this
podcast has been around for ten years. We center women
of color in conversations that typically relate to personal finances
(11:04):
and business. But the reason that I'm so excited to
have y'all on the show today is because there is
so much that it's still left to be done when
it comes to racial equity and healthcare. So who better
than the two of y'all to be here for this conversation.
I want to kick off actually with a question that
definitely occurred to me when I was reading doctor Blackstock's book,
(11:24):
Doctor Shepherd, Yours is a little bit less on your
personal journey, which I would love to talk to you about,
doctor Blackstock. You're so open and candid about your journey
through your career. I feel like for both of y'all
being entrenched in this world where you're talking to this
marginalized group of people we're talking to us, there must
be an emotional toll that this takes. How do y'all
take care of yourselves? How are you doing?
Speaker 2 (11:47):
Okay? Yeah, I'm happy to answer that.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
I feel like it's interesting because I feel like, you know,
I've been having a lot of book events and speaking events,
and it's always so wonderful because someone of the audience
will always ask me, how are you taking care of yourself?
I feel very cared for in that way. I would say,
I'm very very intentional about it. So one, I have
a wonderful therapist who has has held me down for
(12:10):
the last five six years, who has seen me through
career transitions, divorce, just so many different changes, and who
affirms who I am and where I am in this.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
In this world.
Speaker 1 (12:23):
So so that is really important for me. But I
also am very thoughtful about what I say yes and
no too, because I know that I have only.
Speaker 2 (12:33):
So much of a bandwidth.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
I'd be responsible to myself and my children, and I
can't say yes to everything, even though often I would
love to. So it has to be a hell yes.
And I actually probably say no to maybe like ninety
nine percent of the requests of me. Yeah, yeah, because
I have to really be into making sure that you know,
I go deplete myself and then obviously I know doctor
(12:56):
Shepherd probably does the same, but I really ties like
my sleep. I always make sure I try to get
my eat out or to sleep. Obviously, when I'm traveling
it's harder, but even my kids know, like I go
to bed at nine thirty, like I am, I'm done.
I go to bed at nine thirty to get my sleep.
And I also, you know, work out in different ways
(13:18):
like strength training, and you know, I go on my
walks and listen to my podcast. So I just make
sure I make time for myself to rest and restore.
Speaker 3 (13:28):
I love that.
Speaker 5 (13:29):
Yeah, And I think you know, in the journey of
this specific field, when you are doing something that there's
not a lot of representation of what you look like
in that field, and you know, and just from the numbers,
I think it's like six to seven percent of black
people in medicine across the entire nation, and so that
that statistic is staggering in then also being a female, right,
(13:51):
So there's a lot of different context to that. And
what I will say is during the process of getting
where I am, I think there was so much numbing
because you're just like, I just got to get through this.
That a lot of times we don't realize that we
are numbing. And so part of my process in taking
care of myself has been that inward, look at what
(14:12):
trauma is, because it's always not this categorical, like sentinel
event of when we think of trauma, but it's those
things that happened to us along the way and it's
not the actual event. It's what happens to us inside
and from that what we choose to work with and
moving forward.
Speaker 4 (14:30):
I want to talk about entrepreneurship. So, doctor Shepherd, you're
currently you're back to Corporate Gurley. You're at Hymn's and hers, Yeah,
and you are the chief medical officer, Is that correct.
Speaker 5 (14:40):
Yes, chief medical officer of hers. Last year I took
that position during the launch of my book, but I
also have my practice, So that's the entrepreneurial side of.
Speaker 6 (14:49):
You're still seeing patients.
Speaker 5 (14:51):
Yeah, still finding the balance in that and again restructuring
how to best utilize my time. But being back in
that type of space outside of clinical medicine, but still
yielding to giving information on a broad perspective to people,
and then still seeing patients on a day to day basis,
really is able to integrate both of those.
Speaker 4 (15:12):
Well, Doctor Blackstock, you obviously you're still full time with
Advancing Health Equity. Correct, that's the consultantim that you started
in tandem because you were still working practicing medicine. I
want to talk to both of y'all about that that
decision to start your own for you, doctor Shepherd, your
own practice, for doctor Blackstock, your consultancy, and what that
journey was like for you, Doctor Shepherd, Start with you
(15:35):
and how are you sort of, like you said, balancing
those two. What's it like.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
What's it been like?
Speaker 5 (15:40):
Yeah, the balance is everything, and that's really again going
back to the self work of ensuring that I know
what I'm doing, having clarity, making that process as clean
as I can. Obviously room for mistakes, but learning from those.
But I think the reason I really truly believed I
had to leave clinical medicine was what I was doing
in patients health, like.
Speaker 6 (16:00):
What am I really doing for you?
Speaker 5 (16:02):
And what I felt what I was doing for them
was actually not helpful because it was these short, intermittent
visits that were not impactful, not able to really change
the course or trajectory of their mindset, their lifestyle habits
really forming the relationship. So if we're not doing that,
then we're actually not impacting, which you can clearly see
in statistics of what we see in healthcare. We have
(16:23):
the best healthcare system in the world, but yet we
are still suffering from so many different things. Seven of
ten chronic diseases are preventable through lifestyle, So we're missing
it somewhere. And I think that missing is the relationship
and the connection and really being able to offer that
to patients. And I was just like, the more that
(16:43):
I fight the thing that is pushing against me, then
I'm not going to make change. So I have to
find another path in order to do that. And yes,
I'll see less patients, but now I'm being more impactful
and intentional with what I'm able to give them.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
And do you think that that? So going into your
own practice, I mean that comes with me. You're you're
in a new space right now, you define the physical
space and the administrative side of things. Was that was
there a learning curve there or did you feel prepared.
Speaker 6 (17:09):
To deep learning curve?
Speaker 5 (17:12):
Because the funny thing is I have my MBA, So
you know, you're like, I have my MBA, I'm good,
and then real life is like you really good, and
you're like, so I'm going to retract that statement, And
this is where real life comes into what are you doing?
It's it's the hard knocks of life, right So the
things that you don't account for, the things that you
never thought had to be part of a practice now
(17:33):
do and so that growth to me, you know, growth
is everything about who we are, the one point zero
version going to the two point zero version, and why
would you want to stay stagnant? So this has really
pushed me into forums that I never thought I would
be in thought processes, learning to deal with people, people management,
all of that comes into play.
Speaker 6 (17:53):
And I think that hiring, firing.
Speaker 5 (17:56):
Those things can be very uncomfortable and I never had
to do those before. And so now to have to
take that on while still practicing the tenants of medicine
providing good clinical care.
Speaker 6 (18:07):
Man. But when I tell you, like looking.
Speaker 5 (18:08):
Back, we're hitting four years, this year is really like
where I was starting and to where I am now,
I'm just very grateful for the experience and all the
highs and the lows.
Speaker 4 (18:18):
Congratulations, doctor Blockstack. Did you ever consider opening your own practice?
I mean you took that, you took a much different route.
I'm curious.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
Yeah, well, I mean I'm a board certified emergency medicine position,
so I guess.
Speaker 2 (18:30):
I could have opened like my own urging care.
Speaker 1 (18:33):
But I think for me, you know, I was in
academics feeling very small, like feeling like there was so
much more that I wanted to do. And that doctor
Sheper talks about, you know, being able to make an impact.
And it's interesting because I was talking to some college
students yesterday who were reading my book, and they said,
you love academics, You don't. You don't practice clinical medicine anymore,
don't you feel badly? And I said no, I said no, no, no,
(18:54):
you don't realize that there are so many different ways
that we can make an impact, and I actually felt like,
what you say, I know, no, no, but I know.
But I told them, I said, oh, but listen, you
can't imagine the things I've been able to do since
I made this decision to start my consultancy, because I've
testified in front of Congress, I have been able to
(19:16):
do things that impact many many people decide like the
one on one care that I do, which is also
I used to do, which also is very very important.
But I think that it's really important for us, especially
as a woman of color, to really think about like, how.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
Can we really how can we be in alignment? How
can we follow our purpose?
Speaker 1 (19:34):
And how can we be in roles other than the
ones that have We've been traditionally thought like that you
are like in a box and you're supposed to be
doing that that you know, we don't. We don't recognize
that there is abundance, right, There's so much that we
can do, and there's so much impact that we can
we can make.
Speaker 3 (19:52):
I want to give y'all a chance again.
Speaker 4 (19:54):
Your soapbox about like a myth in your fields that
just drives you nuts, And they're like, how.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Are people still not getting it?
Speaker 4 (20:01):
Doctor Shepherd? I imagine it's around HRT. Yeah, and replacement
in that one study that was done twenty something years ago.
And doctor Blackseck, I'm curious about you, but let me
not put words in your mouth.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
Doctor Shepherd, you go first.
Speaker 5 (20:13):
Yeah, there's a myth on hormone replacement therapy which was
a study done twenty years ago. The study actually was good,
it was what the messaging came from it, which is
why we should, like clinicians and scientists actually interpret results
and not let media have the ability to share what
they think is the message. And so you know, when
I think of the disservice done to women over the
(20:35):
amount of time that we were like, oh my gosh,
running streets, this is bad for you. Is that's now
where we are as far as trying to reclaim or
rebrand the importance of hormones. But one thing I do
want to make very clear is that when we think
of all health and you know uch can definitely agree
with me on this, is when we think of communities
of color and black and brown communities. Is that still
(20:58):
when there is a chain, a new idea, or a
new study, we always are the last to learn about it,
implement it into get the best fund of knowledge, the access,
and that I see now happening in the menopause field
is that one Black women experience it usually worse and
more intense and for longer duration when we think of
typical hot flashes and night sweats.
Speaker 6 (21:20):
So here we are suffering it from.
Speaker 5 (21:22):
The most longest and more intense, and yet we still
have maybe not even the breadth of the gap that
was there, and then also the access. And so this
is why I find it so imperative that we do
have this representation in the menopause space, because, like I
refuse to have our women who are suffering the most
left behind and then increasing our risk not only for
(21:44):
just miserable symptoms at the time, but that also has
implications on light long term care. Heart disease increases the
more intense your hot flashes are, dementia. So I'm like, okay,
we're not doing that again for this little bucket of healthcare,
which is a big bucket because everyone women will go
through menopause like you can't evade it. So that to
me is one of the myths that I won just
(22:05):
from a study perspective I want to debunk. But two,
when it comes to the community of women that need
this knowledge and education so that they can do better
for themselves. I'm like, we're not doing this again. We're
not playing this whole template of communities of color don't
get the same access and information that they should.
Speaker 4 (22:22):
But you're one person.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
I mean, I know how.
Speaker 6 (22:25):
We should try and clone me, and we've tried. It
just didn't work out too well.
Speaker 4 (22:28):
Well, Brown and Fish can help amplify that message. Yeah,
I mean, I've been doing the show for ten years.
I started when I was twenty seven. I'm thirty seven now.
My former co host Tiffany's in her mid forties. She
was just telling me like, oh, no, I won't put
her business out there.
Speaker 6 (22:42):
Well we did, but we won't tell her.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
But like, I'm not Hippa, you know, I don't have
any Hippa regulations for me. Go, so just yell at me, Tiffany.
But she had talked about on the show too, just
like the Perry, you know, Perry coming. And I feel
feel lucky and so privileged to be maybe the first
generation who's going to have elders who actually will talk
(23:03):
to me about it, right, And I just feel like
that's the first step. Like I texted my mom before,
because I knew I was talking to you. It's like, Mom,
did you ever try hormone replacement therapy? I think I
heard she's sixty five and she said, you know, I
went through so much in my forties and fifties. Maybe
it was menopause, I don't know. She had so much
else happening, and.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
She didn't first. And she's a white woman.
Speaker 4 (23:24):
I'll put that like, so she's a white woman, so
you think she'd get all the good good but she
she did not first learn about HRT or like was
really taken seriously by her ob until she was in
her late fifties early sixties, and by then it's like
for her it didn't make a lot of sense exactly.
Speaker 6 (23:43):
And so there again is that gap.
Speaker 5 (23:45):
So I thank you for calling her too, because see
how like the more you know at a younger age,
you can still invite her into the conversation, which then
you can pass on to Tiffany, who were not really mentioning,
but we are mentioning.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Oh, I'm giving her this book post taste. I'm a
little bit early.
Speaker 4 (24:01):
I'm like, well it doesn't really apply to me, Yeah, but.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
We'll pass it around.
Speaker 4 (24:08):
It'll be dog eared, So, you know, menopause one of
the things that I with my mother that was always
interesting to me because she dealt with some chronic pain
like fibromyalgia, and she had so many things and so
many doctors who didn't believe her, and there was so
much disinformation, and for her, I think sometimes she would
be defensive if anyone suggested it could be menopause symptoms.
(24:28):
I think for her it felt like, that's just menopause. Y'all,
ladies go through it. Do you encounter that at all
like this?
Speaker 5 (24:35):
I would say that's one of the first things that
women come in with is the stigma, right.
Speaker 6 (24:39):
And so just a little hint here all of that.
Speaker 5 (24:42):
When you think of women's health and not as being
able to explain that or honor that or embrace it,
a lot of that has to do with patriarchy.
Speaker 6 (24:49):
Right, Let's not give them the ability.
Speaker 5 (24:52):
To embrace that and go through that in a way
where they are not ashamed to talk about it, because
shame then can keep you quiet and we don't have
to deal with it. And then on the other side
is when we look at women, how they're valued in
society today usually has to do a run of reproductive
age frame, right, whether you have kids or not, Like
your worth is usually valued in what you can do,
(25:13):
i e. Bringing you know, a child into the world,
and then after that, which obviously you're now out of
that reproductive frame in menopause, it's like, thanks so much
for your work. Go over here, We're going to escort
you to a nice black box here in a closet
and we'll lock the door.
Speaker 6 (25:26):
Thank you for your time. And so that creates this.
Speaker 5 (25:29):
Ecosystem of well, I'm not talking about it, and I'm
just going to keep quiet about it and suffer.
Speaker 6 (25:34):
And we don't have to do that. We don't have
to live like that.
Speaker 4 (25:37):
Yeah, yeah, I wish that had a I wish it
had been different for her. But we're here at Brown
Ambition where we're at least going to make a different
for our audience.
Speaker 6 (25:46):
Yes we will.
Speaker 4 (25:47):
Doctor Blackstock, all right, your turn to be on your soapbox.
When you think about I know there's so many and
you do such a good job and your book legacy
bringing up research and insight into racist practices and medicine
that I think too many of us as women of color,
are aware of. But if there was a myth or
(26:08):
a misunderstanding. What would that be for you?
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Well, I mean, I don't know if this is necessarily
a myth, but a lot of the work I do
and appicacy I do is around the undertreatment of pain
in black patients and especially in black women. And we
know there's a lot of gaslighting happening when we go
to seek care, and you know, we have these experiences
and we know that anecdotally this happens, but there's actually
(26:31):
a lot of data that shows that validates that.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
And so a lot of the work that.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
I've been doing is actually working with medical schools around
integrating how pain is treated and cared for among communities
of color. But starting in medical school and talking about
where these deeply rooted myths about black people and pain
come from. Because people are you know, whether they you know,
(26:58):
are physicians or not, they're absorbing all of this messaging
that it's making them think that somehow our bodies are different,
somehow we're less sensitive to pain.
Speaker 2 (27:07):
And often what happens is if.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
You're not treating the pain or you're not investigating the
source of the pain, you're actually missing a diagnosis, you're
missing the reason why.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
So it's not just.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
That you know, being in pain causes emotional distress and
physical distress, you actually could be causing harm to patients.
And so this is obviously one of the you know
things I talk about a lot, but why advocating for
yourself as a patient is so important. I always tell
people to bring someone with you if you can, to
a doctor's visit or the emergency department, because when you're
(27:39):
not feeling your best, you can't really it's hard to
really advocate for yourself, like, really have clear questions for
your health professional about like what do you think is
going on once? What the top breathings you think, what
are red flags that should look out for, what's your plan?
Speaker 2 (27:52):
What's my follow up? Like really be clear about that because.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
Unfortunately, the way the system is, we have to really
advocate for ourselves.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
I mean, you share in your book your own experience
and you were, oh my god, what a medical student.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah they had adis that was missed and I had
all these complications.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
Yeah, this was like something I feel like I could
diagnose because I watched Hella Gray's Anatomy on the Lady.
Speaker 1 (28:16):
Even my twin sister, who was in school with me
at the time, told me I think you have appendicitis,
she told me the first visit.
Speaker 4 (28:21):
Yeah, and still and you're being speculumed and like you know,
checked for like your sexual history.
Speaker 5 (28:30):
Can we just go back to that term, love it.
I'm going to start using speculumed.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
What a terrible device.
Speaker 5 (28:36):
It's a new term here on Brown Ambition speculatum vculumed.
Speaker 4 (28:40):
Listen I had anyway, I'm not going to get into
my birth stories, but I was like, get that thing
away from me at a certain point. Okay, doctor Shepherd,
I know that you have to go. I'm just going
to shut up for two minutes and let you say
whatever it is that you want to say about hymns
and hers, about what our listeners should understand about going
to their GINO and getting I go other checkups, anything
(29:02):
that you want to say that you think could be
most impactful.
Speaker 5 (29:04):
No pressure, Yeah, no, just this wonderful ability to have
this conversation, and especially the community that listens and really
tunes in. I would say I would love women and
men to when they hear this particular episode, is to
truly understand the value of themselves individually but also in
(29:24):
their community. I really have used a lot of mind
body connection in my practice and how I choose to
inform people of what they're going through, because a lot
of times we numb what's going on up here, and
our body does respond to that, whether it's chronic stress,
whether it's things that have happened in our lives currently
and in the past. Has a lot to do with
(29:45):
how we can show up, but also our physical manifestations
of health as well. And so if there's one thing
that I would want everyone to leave here with, as
we do have the ability to change our trajectory and health,
whether that's in menopause, whether that's even with just when
we look at chronic diseases like diabetes and hypertension, Like
(30:06):
we have that ability to really heal ourselves in the
way through our life, how we surround ourselves with people
and experiences, how we invest back into the community, and
then also how we treat ourselves inwardly so that we
have the tools to do all of this.
Speaker 6 (30:21):
So it's very multifaceted.
Speaker 5 (30:23):
I'm very fortunate in the course of that I've taken
through my journey in medicine. I mean, ucha you remember,
like going through like med school and residency alone, You're like,
how did I get through that. But on the other
side of it, all the journeys that we've taken. You know,
even though we've stepped outside of clinical medicine, the beauty
that we were able to see through seeing so many
patients at the intensity of illness that they were being
(30:44):
able to really bond with patients there now going into
different types of medicine and wellness and health. I am
so fortunate and glad that I can be where I
am to use my voice but also to encourage others
who are behind me trying to accomplish the same thing
that they too can accomplish that. So I would say,
we have the ability to fine tune our health, both
(31:06):
mind and body. And then I love being able to
be partnered with collaborative events podcasts such as Brown Ambition
to solidify the platform of what community means to everyone
and we all should be investing back into the community
and ourselves individually.
Speaker 4 (31:22):
I love that message. I can't thank you enough for
taking the time. I'm going to have you back.
Speaker 5 (31:27):
We should just do a whole like all three of
us like again, like do it again, and just like
make it like an every eight week occurrence.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Why not say less?
Speaker 4 (31:36):
It'll be like our checkup.
Speaker 6 (31:37):
Yeah, I love it.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
These are our chief.
Speaker 3 (31:39):
Medical officers for Brown Ambision. All right, Doctor.
Speaker 4 (31:42):
Shepherd had to dip out because she is running her
own healthcare practice.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
How she's busy.
Speaker 4 (31:47):
But luckily I still have more to come with my
conversation with doctor j.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Blackstock.
Speaker 4 (31:52):
So stick around, be a fam I'm handy money, and
I will be right back.
Speaker 3 (31:56):
All right, be a faan.
Speaker 4 (31:57):
Let's jump back into my conversation with the incredible doctor J. Blackstock.
Doctor Blackstock, your story, I mean, first of all, I
just want to say thank you because I know it
may not have been so easy for you to share
so much of your personal journey in this book. And
I wonder if there was a version of this book
that was a little less like about your journey and
(32:17):
more just like your final chapter, where you're like, here's
everything that we should be right like, here's the you know,
very like cut and dry of it. Here's what's happening
in the medical system. That's that racism is making everything worse.
Here's how we fix it. Goodbye.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
Well, you know it's interesting. Well, you know it's interesting.
Speaker 1 (32:33):
I think that like in talking about these issues sometimes
like the stories are really important. The storytelling piece, and
because I feel so connected. Mean, I've always felt like
I live in two worlds. Like I know, I had
that live experience as a black woman and as a
black patient, but I'm also a black physician and my
(32:53):
mother was. So I feel like very much embedded and
within medicine, whether I like it or not. I also
feel very call to you know, beat work in service
to our communities. And so I think writing the book
like that personal piece of it was really really important
because that's how you connect with readers.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Like, yeah, people want.
Speaker 1 (33:13):
To like know the history, they want to know like
the data, but how do you write it in a
way that it really like sticks with them, it resonates
with them. So actually, interestingly enough, I found it really
therapeutic to write this memoir because really it was sort
of like I did a lot of processing while I
was writing it, processing of losing my mother, right of
being at the same age. Actually you know, she died
(33:35):
at forty seven, I'm forty seven.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Now, the fact that the book is out, all of
this these sort of like this.
Speaker 1 (33:41):
Alignment, right, thinking about if she were here, you know
what she would think and you know how she would feel.
But also the book. Probably if she was here, I
probably would not have the book, you know. So so
it's just like so many different ways of thinking about things.
But I did find I'm kind of like, I.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Don't think I'm an extrovert. I think I'm an ambrovert.
Speaker 1 (33:59):
But but I do love sharing my stories because when
I was going through a lot of these experiences, I
felt very, very isolated because you know, I didn't share
a lot. I felt almost like a failure at times.
And so I think it's important to tell our stories,
to be vulnerable, because then we actually.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
Find that we're not alone, that there are other.
Speaker 1 (34:20):
People, not just in medicine and other fields, that have
gone through you know, the same experiences, right, And so
it was therapeutic writing this book.
Speaker 4 (34:32):
I'm really happy to hear that I'm actually working on
I'm my manuscript is due tomorrow.
Speaker 3 (34:37):
I'm going to need good congratulation.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
I'm publishing with Hashet. The book is Brown Ambition, and
I also went all in with my personal story, and
as I was reading yours, I'm just like, oh, hell yeah,
this is the kind of book that I love and
it's the you know, it's the truth, and it's powerful.
And strapeutic as how I agree.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Yes, and we need to tell our stories.
Speaker 1 (35:00):
Our stories are important, they need to be told, we
need to read them.
Speaker 2 (35:05):
So I'm so excited for you.
Speaker 3 (35:07):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (35:08):
You know your book. Actually, for me, I was most
drawn toward because I think I'm a weirdo because I
come from journalism, so I was aware of some of
the terrible, traumatic truth of the history of how our
bodies were used in medicine to advance medicine in so
many ways, and how they were abused in that way.
And I think, for my own self protection, I think
(35:29):
a lot of us I kind of skim over that,
like in a way, I'm like, I don't want to
think about that. I just want to focus on your
inspiring story and how you were so resilient and following
you as a as a character, I wonder too. And
part of me feels like, oh, this is the perfect
It's a book for us, like women of color. But
it's also like I want every white physician in America
or any non black physician and even the black ones,
(35:52):
you know, because sometimes we internalize a bunch of crap too,
to read this.
Speaker 3 (35:55):
So how how's it been going? I mean, you wrote
this book.
Speaker 4 (35:57):
Abu a year now has the book, is the book
being is it reaching the hands of the people in
medicine who really need it?
Speaker 1 (36:06):
You know, it's really interesting that you asked that because
I was at a book talk like two weeks ago
and this like eighty year old white male hematologist, like
blood doctor. He came to me and said, doctor black Stuff,
we read your book. A group of us read your
book and we love it so much. I'm so ashamed
that there were so many things that I didn't know
(36:26):
that I didn't realize and we talked through it and
you know, it really electrified us. And I'm like, yes,
that's what I want. And I said, okay, so what
do you know? What do you what's your what's your action?
Like what's your next step? You know, because I want
you know, you know, so we're talking about things that
he can do. I always tell people like, it's not
just about reading the book, but it's about like, what
(36:47):
are you going to do now that you read the book,
Which is why I took that call to action at
the end to different key stakeholder groups, like because I
don't want you to be like, oh, I don't know
what to do?
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Now. Actually, someone even.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Emailed me and said, I read your book and I
know one of the things you mentioned was donating to
black led organizations, So what can I do? And so
I gave them a list, including like my nursery school,
Little Sun People, which is forty years old.
Speaker 4 (37:10):
Black women, O say, I always read the dedications.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
I love these.
Speaker 1 (37:15):
Oh yes, Actually, it's so funny. When I was recording
the audiobook, the sound engineer and the director they said, honestly,
we've never seen an author have such a long acknowledgment
section and mentioned so many people. And I said, while
you have to understand that my village helped get me
to where I am today. I wouldn't have been able
to write this book. I wouldn't have had all the
(37:35):
experiences I had if I hadn't been lifted up by
all of these people, including my nursery school founder and director,
because her curriculum was like an afrocentric, culturally responsive.
Speaker 2 (37:47):
Curriculum, one of the first in the country.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
And I knew from a very young age that as
a as a black person is a black woman in
this country, I knew who I always had a strong
sense of who I was, and that has helped me
get through a lot of really tough situations.
Speaker 4 (38:04):
I could cry thinking about how desperately I wish I
had a similar story for my education. I would have
saved so many years. Yeah, I think because I have
young boys now and they're they're they are I know yours, well,
yours are a bit older now because.
Speaker 3 (38:20):
You said six and eight in the book.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
Now yeah, oh I have a five and a two
year old. Oh okay, I really am, but I they are.
You know, they're going to be perceived as Latino men,
Hispanic men because my husband's Dominican and they're very fair skinned.
I'm at the point where I'm like, I want to
move to Brooklyn. They need to be around black people,
(38:43):
black women. They need to know their mama as black.
I love that part of their history, and they will.
They already do my five Mama on my curls poppin.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
Yes, love it, love it because yours certainly are yes
all things. You know.
Speaker 3 (38:58):
She had a deep condition moment.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
That's really good.
Speaker 3 (39:02):
Thank you.
Speaker 4 (39:03):
In this political climate when DEI, everything that advancing health
equity you're a consultant firm stands for and works toward
is being gutted and being dismantled and under so much fire.
How has that changed your work at all? And how
are you doing in this?
Speaker 2 (39:21):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (39:22):
I mean, you know, I think by nature I try
to be positive.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
I will admit that I am.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
Very unsettled and disturbed by what is happening, especially for
the threats to defund universities.
Speaker 2 (39:35):
That have DII programmed.
Speaker 1 (39:36):
Right, So I'm I was glad to hear that Harvard
is suing the Trump administration around that.
Speaker 2 (39:43):
And you know, of.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Course, to me, that is like the lowest bar, Like,
of course, I think every university should should do that, right,
because that's definitely government overreach. But what I will say
is that this time.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Makes my work even more meaningful.
Speaker 1 (39:59):
To me, I didn't even I didn't think it would
even get to that point. But it's like the work
that we have been doing for the last six years
pre pandemic around health equity, around DEI within health health organizations,
it's even more important. Obviously, the challenge is that a
lot of organizations are pausing and trying to figure out
(40:20):
what's happening, and so yes, we are also seeing that
in terms of the client organizations we work for. So
this is not going to be an easy year for us.
We are like really thinking and that part of being
an entrepreneur is pivoting, right, So we actually just developed
an app called a Health Equity Champions Program so people,
so individuals can sign up to join a community of
(40:41):
folks who are interested in health equity. We do live lectures,
we do recorded lectures, we do workshops, so just like
a way for them to find community, because I think
in this time that's what we need amidst all the
chaos and the fear. Really, the I would say the
antidote to that is community in us being in community
to get so really trying to think about what are
(41:02):
innovative ways that we can still get folks who care
deeply about this work still engaged.
Speaker 4 (41:07):
Have you had any clients of yours organizations that have
like canceled a contract with you, pulled back.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
I don't want to tell you out, but yeah.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
So definitely.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Yeah, we have had organizations that as of January February,
said we have to cancel this contract because we are
worried about this concern about this engagement we have is
around DEI, it's around health equity, and we can no
longer do that because we get funding from the government, right,
or we've had invoices pause, like we're waiting for invoices
(41:39):
to come in, but because like the thing, yes, yeah,
I know, because there is pauses happening and they're trying
to it's impacting us. So definitely scary, like kind of
scary and selling times. And even myself and I do
a lot of speaking events. I've had two host organizations
(42:00):
cancel on me. One because there what was a public
university because they had to get rid of all DEI
programs so they don't even have their di office that
originally invited me, and then saying with another with a
cancer center out west also canceled.
Speaker 3 (42:13):
How much business are you have you lost?
Speaker 1 (42:15):
I know, I know, I just see well at the
same time, so two things. One, there are still some
brave organizations that want to do the work, and we
also are just kind of being really thoughtful about how
we present the work. Now.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
You know, sometimes you have to.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
Say, like we do trainings on psychological safety, right, like
you know, like how do we create environment where everyone
can show up as themselves?
Speaker 2 (42:40):
So kind of like the same work, but just kind.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Of framing it a little bit differently. And then also
I've been so on the road since the book came
out over a year ago, and I'm very grateful for it.
But actually I'm okay with a little bit of a
little break. And even if that break, it's not like.
Speaker 4 (42:58):
I'm the worst producer of a podcast. Sometimes because I'll
see a book as out, I'm like, I love this book,
I'm reading this book. I'm telling everyone about it. I
forget that I could just like have the hole I
can invite the author.
Speaker 3 (43:10):
So I's so neat.
Speaker 1 (43:11):
Thank you.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Yes, you're probably like kind of MISTI no, oh no.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
Because I have the podcast.
Speaker 1 (43:16):
But also we will have to talk another time about
like being a black author and what that means in
terms of marketing your book, because also it's really publishers
really leave it up to you, the author, to market
the book.
Speaker 2 (43:32):
They only spend about two percent of their revenue in marketing.
So other than that lead up to the pub date and.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
Those few weeks after, you as the author are really
getting the message of your book out there.
Speaker 4 (43:44):
And I commend you because you went to medical school,
like you're a doctor, are you still practicing?
Speaker 1 (43:48):
And some no, no, no, So actually it's interesting because I
left academic medicine in December twenty nineteen and the pandemic hit.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
I was working in urgent care and I gave myself
five years.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
I said, I'm going to work with five years in
urgent care while I build up the Advancing Health Equity
the consulting firm. But everything happened in twenty twenty and
there was a need for me. They really come full
time to Dancing Health Equity. So my five year plan
became a two year plan. So had I stopped practicing
in twenty twenty one, which I could have never have imagined.
Every morning I wake up and I pinch myself because
(44:19):
I say, Wow, I'm really doing what I love and
what gives me purpose, and I could have never imagined it.
Speaker 4 (44:29):
How important do you think pop culture representations of medicine
are when it comes to inspiring more, especially more black
female physicians, because the statistics who share in the book,
how small the numbers are, And I think, you know,
across industries, but especially with medicine, because there's such a uphill.
Speaker 3 (44:46):
Yeah, yeah, the reason.
Speaker 4 (44:48):
But yeah, I'm wondering because I know I've seen actors
from like Gray's Anatomy talk about how they've inspired doctors,
but I'm like, what kind like thank God for Miranda Bailey,
but like, you know, show the Pit Is Out, which.
Speaker 1 (45:01):
Is I know, which I haven't watched because I typically
don't watch shows yet to bring Also, I'm kind of like,
I'm very critical, like is that accurate or not?
Speaker 3 (45:10):
Because SUPERA I know, I know, so I.
Speaker 2 (45:14):
Think I'm gonna have to I'm going to have to
watch it.
Speaker 1 (45:17):
But it's interesting because when I, you know, when the
pandemic hit and I was I became an MSNBC NBC
News medical contributor for many people with the first time
seeing a black position, a black women's position on TV
like Live like literally everyone and especially for black folks,
and so I recognized that was so important for me
to be the one that they look to for accurate
(45:40):
and responsible information. There are people who messaged me and said,
I got vaccinated because because of you. I ended up
sending my kids back to school because of you, because
you told me what you told us, what you were
doing with your kids.
Speaker 2 (45:52):
So that's why I.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
Think it's so important for g Yes, my barber, g
I know they know, so, so you know, I love
I would love to see more representations of us in
pop culture. It's interesting because I spoke to someone really
briefly who's interested in an optioning legacy, and they said,
oh my goodness, I could see a scripted series starring
(46:14):
Megan good just about like one part of the book
about you know, being an academic medicine and dealing with
your you know, going through a divorce and and you know,
and dealing with the workplace and seeing patients, you know,
And I'm like, oh, I love that.
Speaker 4 (46:29):
I mean, hell yeah, and has A has the same
dude from er that's like Noah Wiley, I mean, and
he's everyone's like, ooh, doctor.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
Daddy, like so cute.
Speaker 4 (46:41):
But I'm like, what about there's one black physician, one
black female physician who's kind of one, just one prominent one.
I watched the whole series already, So we have a
South Asian doctor. There's one black doctor, a dark skinned
woman with with locks, which I just love. Yes, yes,
he comes in. It's it's she comes in toward the end.
(47:02):
And I'm like, yes, another sister. But I feel like
the producers have red legacy. And I'll tell you why,
because in the first couple of episodes, there is a
sickle cell patient who comes into the er and I
just I see because you really handle that issue with
such care in your book, which I think is so important,
and the way that she's treated from the EMS team.
Speaker 3 (47:24):
And it's a woman of color in the er.
Speaker 4 (47:26):
Department who was like, no, she has sickle cell because
they think that she's for her pain. And this doctor
is being admonished by the er director for taking so
much time with patients and for because they're just like,
we got to get more clients, were you know, get
through patients have some.
Speaker 3 (47:44):
Kind of quota.
Speaker 4 (47:45):
I didn't know there was like quotas or goals of
how many patients you need to be like running through
when the ers are like that, did you ever feel
like you talk in the book about you know, hitting
your burnout point, but did you feel that you weren't
able to take so much care and like be so
compassionate towards your patients so that you can get through
(48:05):
more of them?
Speaker 2 (48:06):
No? No, no, no.
Speaker 1 (48:07):
I think it was that you're expected to do both right,
Like you're expected to like take really good care of
them but also be efficient. And there's some of my
colleagues who are amazing at that, like they can just
multitask really really well.
Speaker 2 (48:20):
But I feel like I always.
Speaker 1 (48:21):
Felt like I wanted to spend a little bit more
time with my patients, and you just couldn't.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
Becau time wouldn't allow it.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
And when you look at the board, there are like
twenty patients waiting to be seen, so that I mean,
it's hard.
Speaker 2 (48:33):
Emergency medicine is tough. It's tough.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
Yeah. I think The Pit is a wonderful show.
Speaker 4 (48:37):
I don't mean to labor labor it, but a show
with a black were female.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
Like doctor at the heart of it just do so
much too.
Speaker 4 (48:46):
Because I'm like, how do we get more black women doctors?
Speaker 2 (48:49):
I would love that. So we're gonna manifest. We're going
to manifest them.
Speaker 4 (48:53):
Oh that would be so exciting. The whole world of
option in your blood did.
Speaker 3 (48:56):
You ever imagine?
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Never?
Speaker 2 (48:58):
Never? Never?
Speaker 3 (49:00):
All right, So in this.
Speaker 4 (49:02):
Space too, I worry for well, I'm I have concern
for you and for doctor Shepherd because it's not just
that there's few of us in the rooms that we
are in professionally, but sometimes like for example, I was
a personal finance reporter, a business reporter, and I was like,
I need to do a podcast that's going to like,
you know, really center women of color so that we
(49:22):
get access to this information. And then that turned into
a business. And and you as well, you know, you
you're an extremely accomplished physician, then you obviously you have
this higher calling and you want to do more and
have a bigger impact. Sometimes do you wish you could
just be a doctor? Like you could just have your
you know, get your mom's bag and you know, put
your name underneath it and like just go to work
(49:43):
and go home and like just be fine.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
I don't know, I feel like, you know what it is, like,
I definitely feel like I have a higher purpose and
there's so and I care so deeply about our community,
and I felt like, like I said earlier, I.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Think how can I have the most impact?
Speaker 1 (50:01):
But also yeah, definitely when I take care of myself
because I need to be in this world for the
long run.
Speaker 2 (50:06):
But addicacy is really important to me.
Speaker 4 (50:08):
Wow, hold space for that sometimes, Like, and it seems
like you have. I really admire that you have such
a holistic understanding of the work you're doing. But also like,
and it was woven through your book and I think
about your mother's last letter to you that you found
under the mattress, which is such a black mom thing
to do, like put it under that?
Speaker 3 (50:26):
Was it under the mattress?
Speaker 2 (50:27):
Up? Yes, it was.
Speaker 4 (50:29):
It was who knows what missives I'll have for my
I know, I know, matt maybe some cash you might
buy anyway. But in her letter in where she said,
you know, take care of yourself and put yourself first,
and I wonder if, like, was that something that you
felt like she really instilled in you and does that
help you, you know, keep things balancing?
Speaker 6 (50:49):
Yeah, yourself.
Speaker 1 (50:50):
It's interesting because I felt like, you know, definitely as
a nineteen year old when I was reading that, I.
Speaker 2 (50:53):
Was like, what is or what she so that? To me?
I was like, what is what is she talking about?
Like I didn't really get it. But now older, writing
the book and as a mother, as.
Speaker 1 (51:03):
A business owner, as a doctor, as a speaker, as
an author, like I didn't recognize the complexity.
Speaker 2 (51:07):
Of of who my mother was.
Speaker 1 (51:09):
Like at the time, she was just my mom, But
now who I am as a forty seven year old,
I'm like, damn, she was amazing. How did she do it?
And I wish she could have had more support? Yeah,
And I wish she could have had more support which
she didn't have to work so hard. I wish did
she didn't have to, you know, especially being the first
in her family to finish college and then go to
(51:29):
medical school and then try to have, you know, have
a career and then have kids, and it's just it's
a lot. It's a lot, you know. So I think
I reflected a lot on like, Wow, she really went
through it, and I love report, and I wish she
could have had more support.
Speaker 4 (51:44):
Do you feel like you're getting to live her next
chapter in a way? You mentioned you're the same age
now as when she passed away, and that she was considering,
you know, divorcing your father, and I don't know what else,
but you've really a divorce. What's that only been like
for you? And how do you think that's tied to Yeah.
Speaker 1 (52:04):
She's she's actually going to go to public health school too,
like she's going to like like she was going to
do like so much more.
Speaker 2 (52:11):
And so, you know, I definitely.
Speaker 1 (52:13):
Feel like I'm living a life that she made that
she probably would have wanted for herself, and.
Speaker 2 (52:21):
That you know, maybe because of.
Speaker 1 (52:24):
Just societal aspectations, personal expectations, that she couldn't really make
those decisions earlier on in her life. You know that
by the time she wanted to unfortunately, you know, she
passed away. You know, it's interesting because I actually had
my my annual mammogram an ultrasound a few weeks ago,
and they found a mass and that had to be
worked up. So far it's okay, But I literally was
(52:46):
just like thinking to myself, Oh, my goodness, like all
of the thoughts going went through my head, like my kids,
my will, like all of this stuff, and just thinking
about like what my mom was going through when she
was sick and when she was ill, right, and just
thinking like I really have to take care of myself,
like I really take care of myself. You know, everything's
(53:07):
gonna be fine, but just like recognizing we're not always
going to be healthy. Things will come up, but you know,
really living in your purpose and taking care of yourself.
Speaker 4 (53:18):
Thank you for mentioning the mammogram and so you've gotten
those annually and this was the first time.
Speaker 1 (53:23):
Yes, yes, yeah, I'm very yeah, I'm very much like
I see what I'm supposed to do.
Speaker 2 (53:28):
I'm a good student.
Speaker 4 (53:30):
I'm really proud of you for saying that out loud.
I feel like a lot of times we hear about
stories from women after they've gone through the thing, very
far removed from it, and I think it's really brave
to acknowledge it while you're still in it. So I've
got a praying for thank you, thank you so much,
just one of those because of early get it out. Yes,
you know, it's like, don't you wish? Like sometimes you're like,
(53:51):
can you sign up for the not resilient track of life?
I know, haven't we had enough going on?
Speaker 1 (53:56):
Ya?
Speaker 4 (53:58):
That was pretty crazy enough? All right, I want to
be I know you probably have to. I just wish
we live next door to one another.
Speaker 2 (54:08):
I know. Well, if you ever come into Brooklyn, let
me know.
Speaker 4 (54:12):
Okay, we gotta do a whole show about devols.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
Oh oh yes, absolutely, yes. There's so much that I
learned from that.
Speaker 1 (54:19):
I couldn't get into it. I couldn't get into it.
It was like five years ago. I couldn't get into
it too much in the book because yeah, he's my
co parent and whatever.
Speaker 2 (54:29):
But there's a lot that I learned on that journey.
Speaker 4 (54:32):
Yeah, okay, all right, Well, thank you so much for
joining me on the podcast. Good luck with everything, Stay
in touch.
Speaker 3 (54:41):
Hey y'all.
Speaker 4 (54:42):
Thank you so much for tuning into this week's Brown
Ambition Podcast. If you're wondering, Okay, what can I do now?
While you can run out and get your copies of
doctor Blackstock's book and doctor Shepherd's books, you can also
check out their incredible work. I'm going to put their
social handles in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (54:56):
For this episode.
Speaker 4 (54:57):
You can DM me at Brown Ambition Podcast on g
Let me know what you thought of the show, let
me know if you want to hear more. And lastly,
like follow the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Make
sure that you share the show with at least one
or two, or three or five or ten of your
friends and family members today so that they can also
help spread the love and grow the show even more.
(55:18):
And just thank y'all, thank you so much for your
support and forgiving me this platform. All Right, I'm Mandy Money.
Until next time, this is Brown Ambition.
Speaker 3 (55:25):
Bye,
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