In this week’s Washday Woosah episode, Mandi Money sits down with executive coach and author Muriel Wilkins for a powerful conversation about leadership, self-efficacy, and the internal work required to truly step into your power.
Muriel host of Harvard Business Review’s Coaching Real Leaders podcast and author of Leadership Unblocked, pulls back the curtain on what it really takes to grow as a leader. Together, she and Mandi unpack the parallels between leadership and parenting, the challenges high achievers face when they transition into leadership roles, and why a true sense of belonging starts from within.
This conversation isn’t about titles or promotions. It’s about doing the inner work to unlock your confidence, confront your limiting beliefs, and embrace the magic that’s already in you.
💡 What You’ll Hear In This Episode:
- Why leadership starts with self-awareness and internal work
- How high achievers often struggle when they move into leadership roles
- The power of self-efficacy and how it builds confidence
- Why creating a sense of belonging begins with you
- How to handle feedback without losing confidence
- The importance of self-compassion through challenges and setbacks
- What great coaches and mentors really do (hint: it’s not giving all the answers)
- Why recognizing your own “magic” is key to personal empowerment
🎧 Tune in to hear Muriel’s refreshing take on leadership, belonging, and how to move through self-doubt with grace and don’t forget to grab her new book, Leadership Unblocked, for even more wisdom on stepping into your purpose with confidence.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, ba fam, let's be real for a second, and
y'all know I keep it a book. The job market
has been brutal, now not brutal trash, especially for women
of color. Over three hundred thousand of us have disappeared
from the workforce this year alone, and not by choice,
but because of layoffs, disappearing DEI programs, and stagnant wages
(00:20):
that keep cutting us out of opportunity. Our unemployment rate
has jumped to over seven percent, while our pay gap
continues to widen. I know all of that sounds dire,
but here's what I want y'all to know. You do
not have to wait for the system to save you.
That's exactly why I created the Mandy money Makers Group
coaching community. It is a coaching community that is built
(00:41):
for us by us. Inside the community, we're not just
talking about how to negotiate or to how to get
the job that you want. It's about finding purpose in
your career. It's about finding communities and others, feeling seen,
feeling heard, and also having a sounding board and a
mirror to reflect your own magic, your own sparkle right
(01:03):
back to yourself. In this community, you'll get group coaching
led by me, but you also get peer to peer
accountability with proven tools and resources that can help you
do what we have always done since rise. Even when
the odds are stacked against us, despite all the challenges,
we will rise. If you're interested in joining the Mandy
(01:24):
money Makers community and having that support to bolster you
and help you tap back into your magic so that
you can lead your career with intention and heart and
your own intuition, trusting that again, please join us. You
can find information in the show notes of today's episodes
or go to mandymoney dot com slash community. That's Mandy
(01:47):
m a NDI money dot com slash community. I would
love to see y'all there. Enrollment is open, so please
go check out mandymoney dot com slash community today. Hey, Hey, vavam,
Welcome to the wash Day Woosa. This is my favorite
(02:08):
time of the week when I get to sit across
the virtual stage from an incredible guest and just be
in conversation and hopefully leave y'all on your Sundays, whether
you are doing your deep condition, whether you are doing laundry,
or whether you're just laying down because you deserve with
a pile of laundry in the corner because that's fine,
and rest is resistance and all of that. However you're
(02:30):
spending this Sunday, just really happy to have you with us.
I Brown Ambition. We have a wonderful guest for you today,
BA fam. It's Muriel M. Wilcomes. She is the CEO
and founder of Paaravis Partners, a leadership advisory firm that
has guided C suite yes, c suite okay, big big
time leadership executives across industries from tech, finance and media.
(02:54):
She's also the host. You may recognize her voice. She
hosts the Harvard Business Reviews Award winning podcast Coaching Real Leaders,
where she takes listeners inside real coaching sessions with senior
professionals navigating career crossroads. It's really great. I love getting
to hear the voices of people you know, going through
it and hearing Muriel's advice to them. But she is
(03:15):
here today because she's a brand new book out, y'all,
and I know that bea fan. We love our leadership books.
We love learning about our finances and just learning about
anything that can help us get out of our own
damn way. And if I could describe this book That's
how I would describe it. It is the leader's guide
to getting out of your Way, but it also has
(03:37):
its own wonderful title. It's called Leadership Unblocked, break Through
the Beliefs that limit your potential. Here we go. If
you're watching on YouTube, I'm also, of course going to
put a link in the show notes, and again, welcome
my guest, Muriel m. Welcomes to the show. Welcome to
Brown Ambition.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Thank you, Mandy. I now think I should I think
how I should have named this book. It should have
been get the Hell out of your Own Way.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yeah, I put a hell in there, I said, damn.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
But ye oh, damn exactly. I like that even better.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Kids are off to college now mom, can you know,
Mom can cuss a little bit?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
It's okay, yes, ma'am, Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
So this is the first book that you've written on
your own. You've co authored another book, So tell us
about it, like, how did this book come to be?
And what what's like the key? What are you hoping
people get out of it? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Absolutely, gosh, you know, I wrote the first co wrote
the first book back. It came out in twenty thirteen,
and I swore Mandy that I would never write another
book again. Really like, no, I mean, I've never set
out to be. I don't even like to call myself
an author, right. I think I am an idea generator,
(04:49):
and I think I have, or I've been told I
have an ability to kind of turn ideas into reality,
which is probably why I'm an executive coach. And so yeah,
it was such an arduous process that I was like,
I don't need this in my life again, I'm not
doing it. But then there was this idea that kind
of kept coming up for me around how much, you know,
(05:13):
we tend to move to doing and actions when we
want something different, and yet it's not sustainable because while
we try to change things on the outside of us,
or even try to change what we're doing, the internal
hasn't necessarily caught up within by the internal, I mean,
the beliefs. And I was seeing this happen a lot
with my own coaching clients. Quite frankly, I was going
(05:36):
through a parallel path and seeing it in myself as well.
And I just found that that conversation about the internal
work wasn't really happening in the workplace, And you know,
the idea just kept nagging at me and I finally
had to address it, which is what the book is
all about.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
So talk to me about that. I love getting into
the nitty gritty, the vulnerable, the messy middle. I crave
converse about the process and like the being in it
rather than like and here's a solution. But so bring
me to that headspace. So like when you're when you're
having a struggle, it's like, Okay, how can I what
(06:14):
can I do? Or who can I hire? Or what
can I get?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
What tool?
Speaker 1 (06:18):
What system do I need to fix this?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I mean, I'll share my own example, which is how
I start off the book as sort of sharing my
story from years ago when I had reached you know,
I was on the corporate track back then, and I
had reached a very senior level position reporting to the CEO,
had a very high mandate, and I was getting the
business results. Like quite frankly, it was painful. I was
(06:41):
struggling with my peers. I was going home every day
extremely frustrated and complaining about everyone else and what they
were not doing or what they were doing. Very much
exerting all of my energy on trying to control everything,
the situation, the people, the meetings, the emails, all the things,
and my partner one night said to me, did you
(07:04):
ever think that maybe the problem is you and not them?
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Well, that's rude.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
I'm still and I'm still with I don't like him.
I did not either, and of course I was like, what,
like you you don't know what you're talking about. I
had some notes, right, like, the frustration kept happening, and
I think what tends to happen to your point around
(07:30):
will like when when does the not the breakthrough, but
the beginning of the process happen. The beginning of the
process happens when you know, using the cliche, you get
tired of being tired and you realize that all the
things you're trying to do and the things that you're
trying to control, it's still not leading you to where
you want to be. And what I wanted to be
(07:52):
where I want it to be is I wanted to
achieve the results that I was achieving, but I wanted
to do it with it being less painful for myself.
And so it took me a couple of years to
finally say, well, you know, maybe I should take a
look at me. And so that is the beginning of
the process, and when you look at you, it's not
just looking at what you're doing, it's looking at why
(08:14):
am I doing what I'm doing. And by the way,
this is not grounded in like murial talk. Nothing that
I'm sharing in this book is new. It's really grounded
in research, It's grounded in wisdom, teachings from eons, It's
grounded in so many schools of thought, psychology, neuroscience, leadership development.
But there are some interesting studies that show that there
(08:37):
is such an impact around what we think about what
we're doing and how much that impacts our outcomes, not
just what it is that we do. And so this
whole notion of what we think about what we're doing,
what do we call them their beliefs? And so that
led me down this path of really identifying, well, what
(08:58):
are the beliefs that we have about the way that
we lead that may actually be counter productive and getting
in the way of us leading effectively just like I was,
and actually making us lead in a way that is
so much more painful than it needs to be, not
only for ourselves, but for all the other people that
(09:19):
we're working with as well.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of parallels between like
leadership best practices and parenting best practices. And as a
new mom, I'm a young mom, you're in the elite.
You have like a pdhpd PhD PhDd.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Whether they make it through the next four years.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
They're in college or friends, you get an AA plus.
I have babies. I have a two year old in
a five year old, and I have I've had to
like no one gives you a rule book or like
a guide book when you just are like, here's your baby,
give us your insurance card, congratulations your mom now, and
then you find out what your beliefs about parenting are
(10:00):
and even know I had beliefs about it. But then,
like life, society, your own upbringing, you form these beliefs,
but you don't like, you don't really know them until
you're thrown into the fire. And I think that happens
with leaders too, right. Sometimes you work, work, work, you
get the opportunity or you're thrust into the opportunity or
whatever happens. But it's not like they say, and you're
(10:21):
going to go away for three months and do some
prep work. We're going to elect work through all of this.
So I think it's it's helpful. Yeah, if you're in
that position to like take a step back, and you're
really inviting, I feel like in the book, inviting us
to give ourselves time to ask these questions.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah. Yeah, And Mandy, you know it's I love that
you said that there's parallels between leadership and parenting. There
absolutely is, because what are we dealing with? I mean,
you're dealing with human beings, So it's just in a
different context. And you know, I'll share that my journey
actually to even be becoming interested in this type of
work did come out of parenting. There's a book that
(11:03):
I read very early on in my parenting journey. I
think it might have even been before I had kids,
I can't remember, or soon thereafter. It's a book called
Conscious Parenting by doctor Shefali Sebekiah. I love that book,
and I quote her in this leadership book. Okay, yeah,
but it is exactly that right that completely changed or
(11:27):
actually has driven my approach to parenting, which is, let
me a right, like, let me let me if I
if I actually, uh perceive my kids to actually be
here as teachers to me, how does that change the
paradigm if I do not see it as this hierarchical ownership.
Like I even cringe now as saying my kids. You know,
(11:48):
I say it because that's the way other people understand them.
But I did not consider them my kids. I don't
consider that I rate exactly I'm own them, right, I
don't own them. I have I have literally been the
usher to get them to this place, you know, and
it just so happens, and so there is those are
all beliefs, and those beliefs then drive the way that
(12:10):
I behave and act in accordance to that. Parenting well,
my whole thing was like, man, there's so much power
in that that we talk about in parenting, we talk
about it in relationships. We don't talk about it at work.
We don't talk about how the same notion transfers to work, which, oh,
by the way, is the place that we spend most
(12:33):
of our time, and where are we having an impact
on others, particularly if you're in a leadership role.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
You know, my parents did the best they could, and
my mom especially was like, you know, a wonderful mother.
And then I but at the same time, like a
lot of us will learn what not to do from
our parents. Oh, I didn't like that, so let me
do this different and for me early in my career,
I had a string of micromanagering bosses and I was like,
(13:04):
you know what, I'm not going to do the first
time anyone gives me a moticum of power, I don't
care if I'm managing an intern. I'm going to give
them autonomy and let them know that I trust them,
and like, just it's not the best way to learn
how to be a leader. But I did delean a lot.
And so when I had my first opportunity to lead,
I was young. I was like twenty six, and I
(13:27):
had left I was a journalist, I was a reporter,
and I had an opportunity to join a startup and
I and be the content director. I jumped at it
because I felt like I had something to offer in
terms of leadership, and I knew that I wasn't gonna
I'd have to wait a long long time I get
that opportunity, had I stayed, and then when I was
(13:48):
thrust into it, I got my first reporter and I
remember being like so excited. I was like, I'm going
to treat you right, and like, do you think like
if just as a reflection to reflect on what are
the time, even if you're like new to management, Like,
what are the times in your career when you really
didn't like the way you were treated?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yeah, liked it? And if you can just start from there,
you can start to like form your own beliefs.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean I think there are different ways
of learning, right. I always joke that because I was
the last of for not joke, it's actually serious. Like before,
because I was the last of four kids, I am
an observer learner, So I look, I was always looking
to see what was happening with my sisters, and I
learned from there, like what would get me in trouble,
(14:36):
what would not get me in trouble? Right? And the rules?
And I think the same holds true for in any
aspect of life, you know. I think so you can
you can form those beliefs based on what you see
from others, or you can form them just from your
own experience. I think what's important is, whether you are
a new manager, established manager, wherever you are in your career,
(15:01):
is to recognize that none of the beliefs that drive
the behavior. So for example, for you, when you're like,
I'm not going to micromanage that, you know, what drives
that is potentially, I don't know, for you, it might
be you know, people deserve their autonomy and flexibility, right,
and that belief or that value then drives the behavior
of not micromanaging but rather delegating a lot. Here's what's
(15:23):
tea though. We have to understand that none of the
beliefs that we have are bad because at some point
they served us. That micromanager who has that belief of
I need to be involved in all the things which,
by the way, I have suffered from at times. The
reason they have is because at some point, and probably
for a very long time, that belief actually served them
(15:45):
really really well. It made them successful. You know. The
issue is now they're in a situation where it doesn't
make them successful or it makes everybody else's life not
feel successful. And I think one of the things that's
really important is you grow, whether it's as a leader,
as a parent, in a relation, as an adult. Is
the ability to flex right, the ability to be adaptable.
(16:06):
We have such a much better chance of dealing with
the complexities of anything we're dealing with, whether it be
work or otherwise, if we have flexibility and range. And
so what I'm proposing here is even if you're a
new manager. It's not that you have to pick one
or the other, right I need to be involved or
I shouldn't be involved. It's knowing that you have the
(16:27):
choice between the two, and you should be assessing the
situations and saying, okay, depending on the outcome that I'm
looking to drive to, which one or any of them,
you know in the gradient, which one should I hold
on to? And that, to me is actually what it
means to have agency, because it's something you have control
over your own response, your own mindset, and you have
(16:50):
choice in terms of how you think about anything that's
in front of you.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Hey, bafam, we got to take a quick break, pay
some BIS and we'll be right back. Such a difficult
lesson because I hear the same thing in marriage counseling too.
It's like the fastest way to get your partner to
change is to change yourself. And again applicable now, like
I also think about especially in like when you are
(17:17):
someone who, like you said, to your point, your behavior
has served you in your career, like doing all the
things and being a go getter and staying later than
everyone else, and you know, being really entrepreneurial that can
get you tapped for leadership role. But then when you
and that was definitely my case, like I worked a
certain way, you know, for myself, and I didn't. It
(17:40):
took me a while to shift that, like to stop
over extending myself and continuing to focus on my own
individual like work. I'm clacking at the keys and that
means I'm working hard.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Can you talk about that.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Individual contributor high achievers when we get into leadership, How
can that like over extending on ourselves end up being
somewhat toxic or you know.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, absolutely absolutely, And you know, it's interesting you use
that word, like, how does it end up feeling like
we're overextending ourselves or feeling toxic? And I'm using that
word feeling purposely because it describes the way we're experiencing
a certain workplace right or our job no different, you
know when you said, you know, in marriage counseling, they
(18:22):
say the quickest way to change your partner is to
change yourself. I actually I'm not that I'm a marriage counselor,
but what I have learned from being in a committed
relationship for over thirty five years, Now, what I have
learned is it's really not even about changing the other, right,
it's about how you experience the dynamic, about changing your
(18:43):
experience of it, Okay, And that is that's the only
thing you really have power over. Anytime you're sort of
attached to changing anything outside of you, to be honest,
you're holding it on too tightly that then it hold
you in a place where that's where the closure and
the restriction and the stress comes up. Right, And the
(19:05):
same happens with what you just described. So how does
a high achiever end up getting to a place where
they feel, you know, potentially burned out or it leads
to toxic behavior? Because again, like I think about me,
when I started off early in my career, I was
literally responsible for my job was making sure that the
right messages were going into the bill for people who
(19:27):
received their insurance bill. Like it was such a specific job, right,
Did I need to be involved in every little detail?
And did I need to make sure it was correct
that I need to micromanage that particular activity. Did I
need to micromanage myself? Absolutely? Absolutely? The issue when you know,
by ten years later I went to not just managing
(19:50):
myself but managing many, many many more people in relationships,
and I took the same approach. You reach a wall
against your sheer physical capacity to be able to do it,
and what leads to it then feeling like this is
not sustainable. I feel like I'm burning out. I'm not
(20:10):
is because we haven't made the shift from a mindset standpoint.
Everything else has has changed, right, has become more expensive
or more complex or or whatnot, and yet we're still
operating in the way that you know you did when
you were stuffing envelopes as an individual contributor. So part
of it is the ability to catch up. You know,
it's no different if your child is you know, three
(20:33):
years old. Yes, it's very reasonable that they throw a
tantrum every time the toy is taken away. Absolutely, that's
reasonable for a three year old. But if they're eighteen
year old, eighteen years old and still doing that, there's
something that hasn't fully caught up, right, And so the
same holds true in leadership as well. So here's the thing.
(20:54):
I think what we end up doing, or what I
see in my clients is they get very then frustrated
and they try to fix their team, like if my
team just did this, if people would just stop asking
me to be at every meeting if it's everything outside
versus saying or asking in what way might I be
contributing to how I'm now feeling burned out? Or in
(21:19):
what way might I be contributing to this toxic environment
that we now have or this toxic productivity that we have.
It's not to say that you own all of it,
but look at your side of the aisle, okay, first
and notice what it is that you are doing or
not doing, and decide what can you take to change
(21:41):
the experience of leading in this particular situation is truly
where it starts.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Yeah, it brings me to start thinking about sometimes when
you're when you're striving and you want to be you
want to be busy, and you want to be fixing
and doing and being and feel like you want to
be Like being needed by your team means that you're
a good leader, because if they're always coming to me,
I'm the solution finder, I'm the fixer. Oh they need
(22:11):
me again, you know, because I'm the one who can
come in. But some of that can stem from like
the fear of messing up and you know, having to
be like hyper vigilant because you're so afraid to make
a mistake, and rightfully so, especially in a climate where
you know, as a woman of color and leadership myself,
I always felt over scrutinized, and you know, you would
(22:36):
get feedback and you just could I would drive myself
nuts like that? Was that like im I being Gaslet
Is that because I'm a black woman that I'm being
told my own is aggressive and people are intimidated by me?
But yeah, there's a fear of making a mistake. What
would you say when it comes from a place that
(22:56):
makes sense.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
We don't want to we don't want to screw up
the margin of air. And that's right. Do you say
to someone who's yeah, I mean so first of all,
the story you share, which we've you know, I've certainly
been there, right like well, I just somebody just said this,
you know, or even they just looked at me this way,
and all these thoughts come come come to mind around
why it could be. And that's why sharing the book,
(23:18):
even the parable of the two swords, which I think
really underlies the theme of my book and everything we're talking about,
which is uh grounded in this this mantra that comes
from Buddhist circles, which is, you know, pain is inevitable,
(23:38):
suffering is optional. And so there's this story about how,
you know, the Buddha was with a student. And I'm
not religious in anyway. I sort of pick up from
a lot of different things, but the Buddhists.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Really got it going on. I love it right like
I got my favorite is no mud, no lotus.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I'm all right, you know, I don't know my my
Christian Church going Mama is somewhere up there's still doing
the Vine Intervention book, being like, uh, Muriel, that's who
you're quoting.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
It needs to doesn't need to know.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
She's all right, she's transcendental now she can she can
see it all. So, but the story is a student,
you know, he had a student and he said, if
if if somebody gets you know, hit by a by
an arrow it's the double arrow, not double swords, gets
hit by an arrow, is it painful? And the student said, yeah,
of course, you know, like of course is painful. And
(24:28):
then the Buddha says, if they get hit by a
second arrow, is it more painful? And the student says, yeah,
it's more painful that second arrow. And so then the
Buddha says, the first arrow are the challenges that we
face in life. We're all going to face them. They happen,
(24:49):
They're inevitable, right, that's life. The second arrow is how
we respond to the first arrow, and it often is
what causes us suffering and more pain. And so when
you share that story of you get the feedback. We've
all gotten feedback that says you should have done this
or you shouldn't do that. That's the first arrow. That's
(25:11):
the feedback. It is what it is, right. The second
arrow is then the oh my god, like, what does
this feedback mean? Does it mean I'm lesser than? Does
it mean I'm this? Does it mean they're that? Does
it mean? It's the whole narrative that we put over it,
And that's what we have control over. That's what we
have control over. But we have to understand where it
(25:32):
comes from, which is why you're question around what is
that grounded? What I have found or through my research
of other people's work, is that typically when the narrative
does not serve us well, it is grounded in three
fundamental needs that we all have as human beings. The
need to feel worthy, the need to feel connected, and
(25:55):
the need to feel safe. So when we don't feel worthy,
when something reminds us that we might not feel safe,
or something reminds us or triggers us that we are,
there's a risk of not being connected. To your point around,
I need my team to want me to be around,
or I am valued by being needed by my team.
(26:18):
Those interpretations we then try to grab by behaving in
a particular way or thinking in a particular way. So
really the work is to understand, you know, why am
I micromanaging, What is the belief that's driving that, and
where does that belief come from? Is it because right
now I feel like I know for me, when I've micromanaged,
(26:39):
it's because I'm feeling stressed, and I'm feeling stressed and
I don't feel safe quote unquote safe because I think
that if I don't get all of this done, I'm
never going to be able to succeed in what I'm doing.
Is that true? No, it's not. No, it's not, but
(27:00):
I have unchecked That's where it goes to, right, the
fear of making mistakes. So one of the beliefs I
talk about that really gets in the way of leaders
is the I can't make a mistake. Does that mean
I'm suggesting that everyone go out there and just recklessly
make mistakes. Not at all. I'm suggesting that that's not
really true across the board. Okay, it doesn't serve you
(27:20):
well across the board. But where does that come from?
When you feel that like, I can't make this mistake.
Everything has to be perfect, and so I'm really going
to procrastinate on it because then I can't make a mistake.
Where it comes from is this need to feel safe? Right?
And why? Because underlying that is also a belief that
if I make a mistake, I won't be able to recover,
(27:44):
which is not always necessarily true. So oftentimes with clients
when they are, you know, procrastinating or not moving forward
with a decision, we talk through if this word ll
go wrong, rather than tell them now, don't worry, it
won't go wrong. Never worried. Right, let's scenario plan if
this word ll go wrong? What's the worst that could happen?
(28:06):
And we walk down that line, and I said, and
if that were to happen, what would you do? Right?
And they are like, oh, I'd be doing this, this
is that, And I'm like okay, and they're like, but
I wouldn't like it, And I'm like, that's all y.
How many times do we have to do things we
don't like. I'm not telling you it's going to be
comfortable or easy, but could you get through it? Yeah?
You could? You have a plan. And that's what we
(28:27):
call self efficacy, which is far more valuable. Then that's
actually what confidence is. Confidence is not oh, I know
I can do it. Confidence actually comes from I know
I can try to do it, and I know I
can learn to do it, and I also know that
if I do it and it doesn't turn out the
way that I want it to, that I will be okay.
(28:47):
On the other side, that's self efficacy.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I do like to look at those, you know, like
my son when he says, Mommy, i'm scared at night.
He's just trying to get me stayed upstairs long and
he'll be like, I'm scared. I'm like scared of what
He's like, there's a goblin in the closet, or you know,
I'm scared that someone's gonna come take me. And I'm like, well,
then what would you do?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
You know?
Speaker 1 (29:12):
And you know, to a certain extent, I don't want
his imagination and to go too wild, but it can
be helpful to say the scary thing out loud. It
just also calls to mind how important it is to
have a sounding board as a leader. And I have
a lot of compassion for people in leadership positions where
they don't necessarily they haven't created that sounding where they
(29:34):
don't have haven't found themselves a coach, or don't have
a mentor to talk to at work, and they're kind
of trying to like fix it themselves and think that
that's what makes a good leader.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, what would you say? Yeah, I mean, look, I
think that you know, at at the I have come
to a place where I now understand again through a
lot of my own research and learning and work, and
you know, I have such a privilege to work with
so many different people and really study human beings. At
the end of the day, I know I'm an executive coach,
(30:08):
you know, but in reality, I think I'm a student
of humans, right, Like I'm fascinated by who we are
and what we do. I always have been, I've always
you know. I remember when I was younger, probably in
high school actually, I was like, I think I'm going
to become an anthropologist, which what are anthropologists like? They
study humans? And of course my parents, my dad mainly
(30:28):
was like, you can't do that, like you know, like
and look where I end up. So I went and
got business degree, I went and got my MBA and
still look where I ended up. So that that theme
never left me. I've just learned to express it in
a different way. And what I have come to understand
is that you know, when we're dealing with humans we
(30:50):
learn from if we open ourselves up to learn from them,
they actually, as used we were talking about parenting, they're
a mirror to who we are, right and so sometimes
you need to have somebody else to work with to
help facilitate that being a mirror, whether it's a coach,
a mentor a friend, a peer, etc. Somebody that you
(31:11):
can sound board with. And my hope and my goal
even in the work that I'm doing, is for people
to recognize that with enough at bats and enough practice,
they can learn to be their own mirror. They can
learn to coach themselves, they can learn to grow the
capacity to be able to walk through the questions themselves,
(31:36):
ask themselves the questions that another might ask them. I
often know when I'm at the end of a coaching engagement, which,
by the way, I'm always looking to end them. I'm like,
I do not want to do this in perpetuity with people,
because then I feel like I've failed at my job.
My job, I feel.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Almost like that's what they're A good therapist will say
to me.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
I mean, yeah, right, I mean I'm not a therapist.
Like I draw the line very tightly on that boundary,
and I do think like my job is for people
to build capacity right within themselves. Here's why it's important
from a leadership standpoint. You know, so much of what
it means to lead is to grow capacity in others, right,
I mean that's what we do. You have people, and
(32:16):
you're trying to get people to do things right, like
you're setting up these systems, and so there's all this
talk about good leaders need to be able to coach. Well.
If you can't coach yourself, which is the best place
you can practice, what foundation are you setting for how
well you can coach others? Right? And so to me, yes,
(32:39):
I think there is a role for the external sounding board.
And I think about how much more potential could be
filled if not only you had an external sounding board,
but you were also tapping into your own sounding board,
which we're not even gonna get that deep is really
around the integration of the masculine and the feminine energy.
I mean, that's what we have in terms of feminine
(33:00):
energies or intuition, our own knowing all of that and
learning to tap into that. I fundamentally believe that the
most effective leaders, the ones who are most expensive, are
able to do both. They have the external teacher and
they have the inner teacher as well.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
I totally see what you're saying. I think when it
comes to like trusting yourself, I trusted myself a lot
for a lot, I mean like and had a lot
of and in my ability and was able to deliver
and to lead. And then there came a point where,
you know, like extra like your life circumstances, you go
(33:39):
through like changes for your life, right like whether it's
like parenting or you know, family dynamics or financial things
or business things, and some things can knock your confidence
like down the line. And I've had a crisis of
confidence in the last couple of years that had it's
(34:00):
kind of like group and I've had to sort of
go back to basics and build myself back up in
a way that it sucked.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Yeah, I always done with all that. Yeah, we're never done,
Mandy Annoy, Right, I know, I know, you know, I
remember your ma. You're reminding me. I took this this course.
It was right after my mom passed, so it was
about four years ago, and it was a course on
self compassion because I was looking for all the things.
It just helped me, help help me feel better, Like
(34:28):
I was like, can we just help me feel like?
I just want to feel better, Like what's the other side?
Get me there? Because I'm a very outcomest to a
full and I was like, I just want to get
to the other side. And this course was like four
months long and literally we were at like month three
and a half and the and it was all virtual.
(34:50):
And the teacher says, so you know when you do
all these things, like we went into practices like what
can you do? Not the word self care, but you know,
cause so what can you do to like move through things? Da?
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Da da?
Speaker 2 (35:04):
And we have to list them? And I said, okay,
so I did all the things I practiced, but I
don't feel better. And I remember she just she was like, oh, oh, honey,
that's not the point. And I was like, what what
do you mean? That's not the point? Like what have
we been doing for the past three and a half months.
(35:25):
She's like, that's not the point. The point is not
about getting to the other side. The point is what
do you need to do while you're in it so
that you can sustain yourself as you're going through it.
The other side will get there when it gets there.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Man, give me a refund. I want out.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
I mean, but Mandy, the way it changed everything for me,
I mean I was angry. I was angry. And what
it did for me, which I'm offering to you, is
it helped me lean into The seasons are going to
come and go right. But how I experienced the seasons
is all to me, And what I need during each
season is all up to me. Do I need something external,
(36:05):
do I need something internal? Do I need both? That's
what I have under control. But the season's coming and going,
Winter's gonna come, whether I like it or not, and
then spring's gonna come, and then summer and fall. I
do not have control over that, but I have control
over how I experienced each of those seasons. So which
one would I like better, but as long as I
(36:26):
know they're coming, Like, I am not that special that
I can just stop and say, can we make it
summer all the time? Right? Like I cannot? And so yeah,
you know we are like can we just can this
just end? But you know, the crisis of confidence, it
doesn't have to feel like a crisis of confidence.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
I start feeling shitty, I'm like, wait, I'm not suffering properly.
I should be suffering better. There's a better way.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
There's a better way. Yeah, there is an easier way.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Heyba fam, We're gonna take a quick break, pay some bills,
and we'll be right back. Yeah, it's been a tough year.
You know. Do you have any like if you were
speaking to so, I have been coaching now for three
years now, and it's part of what I do. It's
not the only thing that I do. Obviously, I have
the podcast and other projects. But I so enjoy it
(37:18):
and I but at the same time, I wonder if
you have any advice for me, Like if you were
telling someone like me who's a few years and you've
been doing this for decades, a couple of decades, any
advice for me and how I can how I can
show up.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Better, especially as a coach.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
As a coach, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
You know, I think I think the I mean, the
profession of coaching is We're gonna have like a whole
conversation about profession of coaching. You know. It's very different
than when I started. I mean, there's so many more
people in it, you know, so there's like the business
side of it, you know, and then there's the like
the practice of coaching. To me, the most important work
in being able to be an effective coach are two fold.
(38:02):
One is you have to be able to meet your
clients where they are, which means you have to be
able to study what not just what are they dealing with,
but what's going on in the macro world. You know,
when I work primarily with C suite leaders, but I
study their company, the culture that they're in their industry,
so I can better understand what they're dealing with versus
(38:27):
it projecting you know, my own situation, which might be
very different. So I think that's huge. You've got to
meet them where they are, not just in terms of
the context, but also what they need. You know. While
this whole book is written about mindset and beliefs. Some
of my clients are not ready to go there, like
we are just working at the skill level, like we're
breaking out the calendar and saying, let's highlight what works.
(38:49):
You know, we're very tactical. So that is another big
piece is recognizing and being able to assess where is
my client in terms of capacity, need and context, and
making sure that I am meeting them where they are
and coaching them from where they are towards the goals
that they want, which leads me to the second piece.
(39:10):
It is very important that as coaches we are not
tied to the client's outcomes, because the minute we get
tied to, I will only feel valuable. Right if I
feel like, especially in.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
This job market, it's so hard, I'm like this, it's
it's it's I feel like in this season. Not to
interrupt you, but just the context is like I'm not
coaching C suite leaders. I'm coaching women who are literally
in the middle, you know, entry level, like they're you know,
senior or striving to be more senior. And in this
(39:51):
job market where it's like the knocks just keep coming
and there's things that they can't control. Overturn to office order,
you know, effect of January you're going to like make
that decision or not applying and getting referrals and doing
all the right things but then not getting an interview
because you know the current job market. I have struggled
(40:13):
and it's a challenge for myself because I want to
be the best I can be right and going to
be the best for them. I gotta stop, you hit it.
I'm tying my success to whether they are succeeding, and
I think that's compounding.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
You can support it, you can, but you do not
own it. It's the same with parenting. I do not
own my kid's success. I do not own my kid's life.
I am there to support an usher, but I tell
them all the time, I'm like, I've gone to college,
this is your experience. Every consequence of your actions are
(40:49):
a result of your actions. Okay, I may have influenced them,
but now as an adult, you own that. I will
always be there, but you own it. And I think,
as a coach, you know the job. Here's the risk.
I think the minute we start becoming overly attached to
the outcomes of our client, we become part of their story.
(41:13):
It has nothing to do with us. That's what being
in service of. So if you really want to be
a selfless coach, which I think coaches do need to
be selfless, but I think we have selfless defined wrongly.
Selfless to mean is take yourself out of it. Okay,
take yourself out of it. So what does that look like?
(41:33):
I tell my clients, let's work through the options. The
decision is yours, right. I have no judgment too about
what you decide, and in some of the you know,
I have worked across all different levels of leadership, just
so happens that right now, you know, my focus is
on senior levels. My role is to be there neutral
(41:54):
and to be non judgmental because it's the only place
where they're able to talk about the things, to ask
the questions so that then they can process and get
to a place where they see what the choices are
in front of them and they can make decisions eyes
wide open. I see that as me helping them exercise agency. Okay,
(42:17):
And I tell them very clearly, I will sleep very
well tonight regardless of what you do. And I tell them, yeah,
I'm not afraid to get fired as a coach. I'm
really not. And so that lessons you know, the pressure
(42:38):
not only on me but also on them, and that
just takes constant work. It's not even necessarily coaching work.
It's just pure old human adult self work to recognize
when am I becoming part of the story. And I
still face it, right, but I catch myself and then
I'll say, Okay, Muriel, what's going on here? You know,
you got to clean it up a little bit.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
It's like, if you're going to take credit for someone's success,
it also leaves you feeling like, Okay, well, if they're
not succeeding, then that's also the testimonial, you know, that's
also the outcomes that I'm tied to. Yeah, but it's
so right. I think it's also and I want to
hear about this coaches, this coaching of coaches, because yeah,
(43:20):
I think because I've done it and I haven't thrown
you know, like I said, I've built up nandy money
makers and it's lovely and it's not the only thing
that I do. I haven't really like surrounded myself with
peers in that space, you know, and I think that
may help even just I'm so glad I asked you.
(43:42):
I was a little bit selfish.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I'm like, God, yeah, of course a baby coach.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
You know. I appreciate that. And I think it's also
helpful if you're listening and you're whether you're you've worked
with the coach or might be working with the coach,
to see it as an empowerment for you as well,
and not necessarily like you're clinging to this person.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
That's right, should it's not exactly exactly do you know exactly?
I remember it's one of my favorite one of my
favorite authors and probably you know just teachers. Her name
is Danay Logan, and she wrote a phenomenal book called
Sovereign Love, and I also mentioned her in the book
as well, and I remember hearing her one day and
(44:25):
I can't give credit to exactly what she said, but
but it relates to coaching. It relates to so many
different areas. But somebody was talking about how they were
in a relationship and how that person, when they were
with that person, it made them feel like they could
do everything and anything, et cetera. And a coach can
be that for a client, right, a parent can be
that for a kid. And she's like, and then when
(44:47):
that person left, like I felt like I couldn't do
anything anymore, And Dnay said back to them, you know,
the issue is that you thought that they were the
magic to make you be able to do all these things.
What you need to realize is they weren't the magic.
They were only the mirror to the magic that was
already there that happens in so many different capacities. And
(45:12):
so I think as coaches, it's to help others, as parents,
as anyone, right, help others recognize the magic that's already
there or but that they have the capacity to learn
the things that can get them to where they want,
and you're facilitating that process rather than being the magic itself.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Yeah. I needed to hear that for sure. You know,
for anyone who's listening and are there considering like working
one on one with a coach, maybe it's out of
their price range and maybe they're thinking about like a
group coaching community instead, where maybe they're in community with
others and it's like there's lower barrier to entry. If
(45:55):
you have any advice there or any distinction between the two,
like how can you have a successful group coaching experience?
Speaker 2 (46:03):
Yeah, I mean I think just find one where the
a the coach who's leading it resonates with you. I
think that's really important. And then if you're going to
do anything in a group setting, I know I tend
I'm very much an introvert, so I tend to like ruffle,
and I'm like, I gotta go to the group class,
Like where's the private class?
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Right?
Speaker 2 (46:25):
And what I have learned is as long as I
go in with an openness to learn, and that that
learning may happen in different ways, right, I need to
let go of the control of how it's going to happen,
I will get something out of it. And so I
think there's a posture that you need to have when
(46:46):
you do it in the frame of a you know,
I went to I went to a business school that
was a little different because it was all case study
method and I remember on day one, the professor, first
professor we met with, said, everyone here has something to contribute,
and something that will Sometimes that will be by sharing
(47:07):
your experience. Sometimes that will be by asking the questions.
Sometimes that will be just by listening. Be discerning about
how you're contributing at every moment. And so I've always
carried that into every group setting, that there are different
ways of contributing and different ways of learning, and so
I think in a group coaching, that's you know, that's
(47:27):
what you could look for as well.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Yeah, one hundred percent, I'm with you. Sometimes as an introvert,
even a one on one is too much like one
on two.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
It's like, I know, like, let me read the book.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Podcast I could like listen to.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
But but you know, I've learned, like I've had to
like look at my own assumptions around why am I
devaluing the community aspect of it? There's we need both,
you know, we need the individual solitude, time with ourselves
and again if we perceive community as a place of
learning and growth, which I think there is huge. You know,
(48:07):
you don't you don't run into the challenges in isolation
that you know. I look at community now, and when
I talk about community, it's my friends, it's my family,
it's people that I have to be around. I look
at them as that's where I practice. I might be
learning when I'm on my own, but I practice when
I'm in community, right, because that's when the mirror really happens.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
You know, you mentioned in the book you talk about
like belonging, and I think I made the mistake of
like when I was in leadership. One of the you know,
beliefs I had was that I needed external validation to
feel as if I belonged in the position I had,
And I just wonder, I know we're at times, I'll
(48:51):
i'll wrap up with this, but I wonder if you're,
you know, into any listeners who may be feeling like
do I belong here and they're waiting for someone to
give them the feedback that they want, or even they've
gone into leadership hearing. I work with women of color
right our listenership is mainly women of color, and I
never want to contribute to too much of the narrative
(49:14):
that our backs are up against the wall, no one
believes in us, we're going and we're underpaid, undervalue. No
one's going to want you in the position that you're in.
I think that's very detrimental. I'd like if you just
talk about like how to increase that sense of belonging and.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
How we can do that. Yeah, ourselves, absolutely, And I
talk you know, I dedicate a whole chapter to when
you have that little voice in your head that's saying
I don't belong here, whether it's at a meeting or
in a company or in a you know, I at
times have felt that, and not so much in the workplace,
but I have felt that socially right, and I've had
to unpack like where that was and why that was,
(49:52):
and I understood where it was, why it was what
it was, and you know, I actually struggled with this
chapter because I was conflicted in feeling like, well, gosh, like,
how do you ever feel like you belong if other
people make you feel like you don't belong or if
they don't want you to belong, right, which there are
(50:13):
systems set up for some of us not to belong, Okay.
And one of the things that doctor Shufali Saveria, which
we've talked about, introduced to me, is this notion that
everything is co created, right, everything is co created, and
so in the and so in the aspect of belonging,
(50:37):
there are different actors to that. They are the ones
who make you feel like you don't belong or who
take actions that can lead to you not belonging. And
there's how you receive that, which is how you respond
to it. So, going back to that story of the
two arrows, the first arrow is systems that are set
up for certain people to not belong that's the first
(50:57):
er that is true. I'm not absolving it. I don't
think it's right. It exists. Fact. The second arrow is
how we respond to it and how we feel about it.
And what I see is that the minute we start
internalizing the very thing that those systems are set up
to do, it then drives this mantra of I don't
(51:21):
belong here, right, and causes us to suffer even more
from something that's already painful. And so what I share,
you know what, or not even share where my clients
tend to come out when we are working through this,
which often show which surprisingly Mandy like a lot of
my clients are not from underrepresented groups. Okay, let me
(51:41):
just start there, and they feel this too, right. In fact,
there's a podcast episode that's coming out next week where
it's about a gentleman senior level table and he feels
like he doesn't belong. That's who I write about even
in the book, and the notion is more around They
come out on the other side feeling like, well, wait
(52:03):
a minute, if I'm here and I am physically here,
why am I saying I don't belong? Why am I
contributing to this story? I'm actually here. They may not
accept me. There's a fine line between being accepted and them.
You know, you belonging to them, but in reality, you
don't belong to anyone, okay. And so really the notion
(52:27):
of belonging is as long as I'm here and I
belong to myself, I belong Let let me Let that
be my mantra. Everything else I've got to deal with
it differently. So there it is a difficult one to
work through, and yet when you do, it can be
very liberating. I share the story about in the book
(52:48):
you Know We Are When my kids were much much younger,
they went to school that you know, the majority of
the kids that were there did not look like them,
and uh, it was so interesting to us because a
lot of the other brown families who were there. You
would hear the parents and they'd be like, oh, man,
isn't it great that we're here, Like this is just
(53:08):
going to set them up for success and blah blah blah.
And what we would tell our kids all the time is, listen,
you're not lucky to be here. They're lucky to have
you here, right, Because we wanted them to step onto
that campus every single day knowing that they have every
(53:31):
right to be there. They belong there because they're there.
No questions asked, they they were there. And I think
the same applies when we're in the workplace. Right, you
were chosen for a reason, you applied for the job,
you were choosing to be here, and as long as
you choose to be here, then you belong the minute
you decide, which there are times when you should say
(53:54):
I don't belong here. There are moments then you'd no
longer belong there. You make that choice. Nobody else makes
the choice of where you belong but you. That's agency.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
And that's why even when you're someone in a largely
like when you are the underrepresented, the few, the only
the difference, it's so important to create your own circle
of support.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
Your kids had you when they came home, to remind
them who they are and that they belong. We so
need that.
Speaker 2 (54:21):
I have a very very good friend of mine, you know,
a black woman very just does doing impactful work in
an industry where she's definitely one of the few, and
just has had a remarkable career. But it's all around
just an amazing person. And one of the things she
always says I know who I am and I know
(54:42):
whose I am, so I can step into any room
and it doesn't not matter whether they think I should
be there or not, which basically says you don't. You
don't dictate that nobody else dictates that you can't because
I already know. And that's that's what that I belong
here comes from. It's an inner sense of belonging that
(55:03):
is so strong that you're not relying on anything externally
to validate it or misvalidate it.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
Yeah, I know, ba fam needed to hear that, and
even if you've heard it before, to hear it now
at a time like this where it's like, you know,
expressions like DEI hire and affirmative action and like all
these institution systems that up to give us a bit
of a leg up to even the level the playing
(55:35):
field are then weaponized against us, and all that noise
and all that bs and the tweets and the tiktoks
and all that. At the end of the day, it
has to like like you said about the second arrow,
we get to like the first arrow, that's the first arrow,
and then we get to choose whether or not we
believe it. I just really I'm so glad that you
(55:57):
came on the show.
Speaker 2 (55:58):
I think, Oh, I'm so glad that I have been here.
I really this has been such a treat. Mandy, you
like good at what you do. It's almost it makes sense.
You wrote a book about it.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
Oh my gosh, look at that again, y'all. My guess
is Muriel M. Wilkins, and her book is Leadership Unblocked,
break Through the beliefs that limit your potential. And y'all
can pick that up wherever books are sold. It's out
October twenty eighth. Yeah, so it'll be out by the
time the stairs, I believe. If not, we can pre
(56:31):
order it. Get them pre orders up.
Speaker 2 (56:33):
Yes, congratulations, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (56:35):
Man, a huge success.
Speaker 2 (56:38):
Thank you, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (56:39):
All right, Pa fam, until next time, wish you well. Bye,
Hey ba fam. Let's be real for a second, and
y'all know I keep it a book. The job market
has been brutal, no, not brutal, trash, especially for women
of color. Over three hundred thousand of us have disappear
(57:00):
from the workforce this year alone, and not by choice,
but because of layoffs, disappearing DEI programs, and stagnant wages
that keep cutting us out of opportunity. Our unemployment rate
has jumped to over seven percent, while our pay gap
continues to widen. I know all of that sounds dire,
but here's what I want y'all to know. You do
(57:20):
not have to wait for the system to save you.
That's exactly why I created the Mandy money Makers Group
coaching community. It is a coaching community that is built
for us by us. Inside the community, we're not just
talking about how to negotiate or to how to get
the job that you want. It's about finding purpose in
your career. It's about finding communities and others, feeling seen,
(57:44):
feeling heard, and also having a sounding board and a
mirror to reflect your own magic, your own sparkle right
back to yourself. In this community, you'll get group coaching
led by me, but you also get peer to peer
accountability with proven tools and resources that can help you
do what we have always done since rise. Even when
(58:05):
the odds are stacked against us, despite all the challenges,
we will rise. If you're interested in joining the Mandy
money Makers community and having that support to bolster you
and help you tap back into your magic so that
you can lead your career with intention and heart and
your own intuition. Trusting that again, please join us. You
(58:27):
can find information in the show notes of today's episodes,
or go to mandymoney dot com slash community. That's Mandy
m ndimoney dot com slash community. I would love to
see y'all there. Enrollment is open, so please go check
out mandymoney dot com slash community today
Hey, ba fam, let's be real for a second, and
y'all know I keep it a book. The job market
has been brutal, now not brutal trash, especially for women
of color. Over three hundred thousand of us have disappeared
from the workforce this year alone, and not by choice,
but because of layoffs, disappearing DEI programs, and stagnant wages
(00:20):
that keep cutting us out of opportunity. Our unemployment rate
has jumped to over seven percent, while our pay gap
continues to widen. I know all of that sounds dire,
but here's what I want y'all to know. You do
not have to wait for the system to save you.
That's exactly why I created the Mandy money Makers Group
coaching community. It is a coaching community that is built
(00:41):
for us by us. Inside the community, we're not just
talking about how to negotiate or to how to get
the job that you want. It's about finding purpose in
your career. It's about finding communities and others, feeling seen,
feeling heard, and also having a sounding board and a
mirror to reflect your own magic, your own sparkle right
(01:03):
back to yourself. In this community, you'll get group coaching
led by me, but you also get peer to peer
accountability with proven tools and resources that can help you
do what we have always done since rise. Even when
the odds are stacked against us, despite all the challenges,
we will rise. If you're interested in joining the Mandy
(01:24):
money Makers community and having that support to bolster you
and help you tap back into your magic so that
you can lead your career with intention and heart and
your own intuition, trusting that again, please join us. You
can find information in the show notes of today's episodes
or go to mandymoney dot com slash community. That's Mandy
(01:47):
m a NDI money dot com slash community. I would
love to see y'all there. Enrollment is open, so please
go check out mandymoney dot com slash community today. Hey, Hey, vavam,
Welcome to the wash Day Woosa. This is my favorite
(02:08):
time of the week when I get to sit across
the virtual stage from an incredible guest and just be
in conversation and hopefully leave y'all on your Sundays, whether
you are doing your deep condition, whether you are doing laundry,
or whether you're just laying down because you deserve with
a pile of laundry in the corner because that's fine,
and rest is resistance and all of that. However you're
(02:30):
spending this Sunday, just really happy to have you with us.
I Brown Ambition. We have a wonderful guest for you today,
BA fam. It's Muriel M. Wilcomes. She is the CEO
and founder of Paaravis Partners, a leadership advisory firm that
has guided C suite yes, c suite okay, big big
time leadership executives across industries from tech, finance and media.
(02:54):
She's also the host. You may recognize her voice. She
hosts the Harvard Business Reviews Award winning podcast Coaching Real Leaders,
where she takes listeners inside real coaching sessions with senior
professionals navigating career crossroads. It's really great. I love getting
to hear the voices of people you know, going through
it and hearing Muriel's advice to them. But she is
(03:15):
here today because she's a brand new book out, y'all,
and I know that bea fan. We love our leadership books.
We love learning about our finances and just learning about
anything that can help us get out of our own
damn way. And if I could describe this book That's
how I would describe it. It is the leader's guide
to getting out of your Way, but it also has
(03:37):
its own wonderful title. It's called Leadership Unblocked, break Through
the Beliefs that limit your potential. Here we go. If
you're watching on YouTube, I'm also, of course going to
put a link in the show notes, and again, welcome
my guest, Muriel m. Welcomes to the show. Welcome to
Brown Ambition.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
Thank you, Mandy. I now think I should I think
how I should have named this book. It should have
been get the Hell out of your Own Way.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yeah, I put a hell in there, I said, damn.
Speaker 2 (04:02):
But ye oh, damn exactly. I like that even better.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Kids are off to college now mom, can you know,
Mom can cuss a little bit?
Speaker 2 (04:09):
It's okay, yes, ma'am, Yes, ma'am.
Speaker 1 (04:12):
So this is the first book that you've written on
your own. You've co authored another book, So tell us
about it, like, how did this book come to be?
And what what's like the key? What are you hoping
people get out of it? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (04:26):
Absolutely, gosh, you know, I wrote the first co wrote
the first book back. It came out in twenty thirteen,
and I swore Mandy that I would never write another
book again. Really like, no, I mean, I've never set
out to be. I don't even like to call myself
an author, right. I think I am an idea generator,
(04:49):
and I think I have, or I've been told I
have an ability to kind of turn ideas into reality,
which is probably why I'm an executive coach. And so yeah,
it was such an arduous process that I was like,
I don't need this in my life again, I'm not
doing it. But then there was this idea that kind
of kept coming up for me around how much, you know,
(05:13):
we tend to move to doing and actions when we
want something different, and yet it's not sustainable because while
we try to change things on the outside of us,
or even try to change what we're doing, the internal
hasn't necessarily caught up within by the internal, I mean,
the beliefs. And I was seeing this happen a lot
with my own coaching clients. Quite frankly, I was going
(05:36):
through a parallel path and seeing it in myself as well.
And I just found that that conversation about the internal
work wasn't really happening in the workplace, And you know,
the idea just kept nagging at me and I finally
had to address it, which is what the book is
all about.
Speaker 1 (05:53):
So talk to me about that. I love getting into
the nitty gritty, the vulnerable, the messy middle. I crave
converse about the process and like the being in it
rather than like and here's a solution. But so bring
me to that headspace. So like when you're when you're
having a struggle, it's like, Okay, how can I what
(06:14):
can I do? Or who can I hire? Or what
can I get?
Speaker 2 (06:18):
What tool?
Speaker 1 (06:18):
What system do I need to fix this?
Speaker 2 (06:20):
I mean, I'll share my own example, which is how
I start off the book as sort of sharing my
story from years ago when I had reached you know,
I was on the corporate track back then, and I
had reached a very senior level position reporting to the CEO,
had a very high mandate, and I was getting the
business results. Like quite frankly, it was painful. I was
(06:41):
struggling with my peers. I was going home every day
extremely frustrated and complaining about everyone else and what they
were not doing or what they were doing. Very much
exerting all of my energy on trying to control everything,
the situation, the people, the meetings, the emails, all the things,
and my partner one night said to me, did you
(07:04):
ever think that maybe the problem is you and not them?
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Well, that's rude.
Speaker 2 (07:09):
I'm still and I'm still with I don't like him.
I did not either, and of course I was like, what,
like you you don't know what you're talking about. I
had some notes, right, like, the frustration kept happening, and
I think what tends to happen to your point around
(07:30):
will like when when does the not the breakthrough, but
the beginning of the process happen. The beginning of the
process happens when you know, using the cliche, you get
tired of being tired and you realize that all the
things you're trying to do and the things that you're
trying to control, it's still not leading you to where
you want to be. And what I wanted to be
(07:52):
where I want it to be is I wanted to
achieve the results that I was achieving, but I wanted
to do it with it being less painful for myself.
And so it took me a couple of years to
finally say, well, you know, maybe I should take a
look at me. And so that is the beginning of
the process, and when you look at you, it's not
just looking at what you're doing, it's looking at why
(08:14):
am I doing what I'm doing. And by the way,
this is not grounded in like murial talk. Nothing that
I'm sharing in this book is new. It's really grounded
in research, It's grounded in wisdom, teachings from eons, It's
grounded in so many schools of thought, psychology, neuroscience, leadership development.
But there are some interesting studies that show that there
(08:37):
is such an impact around what we think about what
we're doing and how much that impacts our outcomes, not
just what it is that we do. And so this
whole notion of what we think about what we're doing,
what do we call them their beliefs? And so that
led me down this path of really identifying, well, what
(08:58):
are the beliefs that we have about the way that
we lead that may actually be counter productive and getting
in the way of us leading effectively just like I was,
and actually making us lead in a way that is
so much more painful than it needs to be, not
only for ourselves, but for all the other people that
(09:19):
we're working with as well.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of parallels between like
leadership best practices and parenting best practices. And as a
new mom, I'm a young mom, you're in the elite.
You have like a pdhpd PhD PhDd.
Speaker 2 (09:36):
Whether they make it through the next four years.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
They're in college or friends, you get an AA plus.
I have babies. I have a two year old in
a five year old, and I have I've had to
like no one gives you a rule book or like
a guide book when you just are like, here's your baby,
give us your insurance card, congratulations your mom now, and
then you find out what your beliefs about parenting are
(10:00):
and even know I had beliefs about it. But then,
like life, society, your own upbringing, you form these beliefs,
but you don't like, you don't really know them until
you're thrown into the fire. And I think that happens
with leaders too, right. Sometimes you work, work, work, you
get the opportunity or you're thrust into the opportunity or
whatever happens. But it's not like they say, and you're
(10:21):
going to go away for three months and do some
prep work. We're going to elect work through all of this.
So I think it's it's helpful. Yeah, if you're in
that position to like take a step back, and you're
really inviting, I feel like in the book, inviting us
to give ourselves time to ask these questions.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Yeah. Yeah, And Mandy, you know it's I love that
you said that there's parallels between leadership and parenting. There
absolutely is, because what are we dealing with? I mean,
you're dealing with human beings, So it's just in a
different context. And you know, I'll share that my journey
actually to even be becoming interested in this type of
work did come out of parenting. There's a book that
(11:03):
I read very early on in my parenting journey. I
think it might have even been before I had kids,
I can't remember, or soon thereafter. It's a book called
Conscious Parenting by doctor Shefali Sebekiah. I love that book,
and I quote her in this leadership book. Okay, yeah,
but it is exactly that right that completely changed or
(11:27):
actually has driven my approach to parenting, which is, let
me a right, like, let me let me if I
if I actually, uh perceive my kids to actually be
here as teachers to me, how does that change the
paradigm if I do not see it as this hierarchical ownership.
Like I even cringe now as saying my kids. You know,
(11:48):
I say it because that's the way other people understand them.
But I did not consider them my kids. I don't
consider that I rate exactly I'm own them, right, I
don't own them. I have I have literally been the
usher to get them to this place, you know, and
it just so happens, and so there is those are
all beliefs, and those beliefs then drive the way that
(12:10):
I behave and act in accordance to that. Parenting well,
my whole thing was like, man, there's so much power
in that that we talk about in parenting, we talk
about it in relationships. We don't talk about it at work.
We don't talk about how the same notion transfers to work, which, oh,
by the way, is the place that we spend most
(12:33):
of our time, and where are we having an impact
on others, particularly if you're in a leadership role.
Speaker 1 (12:38):
You know, my parents did the best they could, and
my mom especially was like, you know, a wonderful mother.
And then I but at the same time, like a
lot of us will learn what not to do from
our parents. Oh, I didn't like that, so let me
do this different and for me early in my career,
I had a string of micromanagering bosses and I was like,
(13:04):
you know what, I'm not going to do the first
time anyone gives me a moticum of power, I don't
care if I'm managing an intern. I'm going to give
them autonomy and let them know that I trust them,
and like, just it's not the best way to learn
how to be a leader. But I did delean a lot.
And so when I had my first opportunity to lead,
I was young. I was like twenty six, and I
(13:27):
had left I was a journalist, I was a reporter,
and I had an opportunity to join a startup and
I and be the content director. I jumped at it
because I felt like I had something to offer in
terms of leadership, and I knew that I wasn't gonna
I'd have to wait a long long time I get
that opportunity, had I stayed, and then when I was
(13:48):
thrust into it, I got my first reporter and I
remember being like so excited. I was like, I'm going
to treat you right, and like, do you think like
if just as a reflection to reflect on what are
the time, even if you're like new to management, Like,
what are the times in your career when you really
didn't like the way you were treated?
Speaker 2 (14:09):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (14:09):
Yeah, liked it? And if you can just start from there,
you can start to like form your own beliefs.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Yeah, absolutely, I mean I think there are different ways
of learning, right. I always joke that because I was
the last of for not joke, it's actually serious. Like before,
because I was the last of four kids, I am
an observer learner, So I look, I was always looking
to see what was happening with my sisters, and I
learned from there, like what would get me in trouble,
(14:36):
what would not get me in trouble? Right? And the rules?
And I think the same holds true for in any
aspect of life, you know. I think so you can
you can form those beliefs based on what you see
from others, or you can form them just from your
own experience. I think what's important is, whether you are
a new manager, established manager, wherever you are in your career,
(15:01):
is to recognize that none of the beliefs that drive
the behavior. So for example, for you, when you're like,
I'm not going to micromanage that, you know, what drives
that is potentially, I don't know, for you, it might
be you know, people deserve their autonomy and flexibility, right,
and that belief or that value then drives the behavior
of not micromanaging but rather delegating a lot. Here's what's
(15:23):
tea though. We have to understand that none of the
beliefs that we have are bad because at some point
they served us. That micromanager who has that belief of
I need to be involved in all the things which,
by the way, I have suffered from at times. The
reason they have is because at some point, and probably
for a very long time, that belief actually served them
(15:45):
really really well. It made them successful. You know. The
issue is now they're in a situation where it doesn't
make them successful or it makes everybody else's life not
feel successful. And I think one of the things that's
really important is you grow, whether it's as a leader,
as a parent, in a relation, as an adult. Is
the ability to flex right, the ability to be adaptable.
(16:06):
We have such a much better chance of dealing with
the complexities of anything we're dealing with, whether it be
work or otherwise, if we have flexibility and range. And
so what I'm proposing here is even if you're a
new manager. It's not that you have to pick one
or the other, right I need to be involved or
I shouldn't be involved. It's knowing that you have the
(16:27):
choice between the two, and you should be assessing the
situations and saying, okay, depending on the outcome that I'm
looking to drive to, which one or any of them,
you know in the gradient, which one should I hold
on to? And that, to me is actually what it
means to have agency, because it's something you have control
over your own response, your own mindset, and you have
(16:50):
choice in terms of how you think about anything that's
in front of you.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Hey, bafam, we got to take a quick break, pay
some BIS and we'll be right back. Such a difficult
lesson because I hear the same thing in marriage counseling too.
It's like the fastest way to get your partner to
change is to change yourself. And again applicable now, like
I also think about especially in like when you are
(17:17):
someone who, like you said, to your point, your behavior
has served you in your career, like doing all the
things and being a go getter and staying later than
everyone else, and you know, being really entrepreneurial that can
get you tapped for leadership role. But then when you
and that was definitely my case, like I worked a
certain way, you know, for myself, and I didn't. It
(17:40):
took me a while to shift that, like to stop
over extending myself and continuing to focus on my own
individual like work. I'm clacking at the keys and that
means I'm working hard.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Can you talk about that.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Individual contributor high achievers when we get into leadership, How
can that like over extending on ourselves end up being
somewhat toxic or you know.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah, absolutely absolutely, And you know, it's interesting you use
that word, like, how does it end up feeling like
we're overextending ourselves or feeling toxic? And I'm using that
word feeling purposely because it describes the way we're experiencing
a certain workplace right or our job no different, you
know when you said, you know, in marriage counseling, they
(18:22):
say the quickest way to change your partner is to
change yourself. I actually I'm not that I'm a marriage counselor,
but what I have learned from being in a committed
relationship for over thirty five years, Now, what I have
learned is it's really not even about changing the other, right,
it's about how you experience the dynamic, about changing your
(18:43):
experience of it, Okay, And that is that's the only
thing you really have power over. Anytime you're sort of
attached to changing anything outside of you, to be honest,
you're holding it on too tightly that then it hold
you in a place where that's where the closure and
the restriction and the stress comes up. Right, And the
(19:05):
same happens with what you just described. So how does
a high achiever end up getting to a place where
they feel, you know, potentially burned out or it leads
to toxic behavior? Because again, like I think about me,
when I started off early in my career, I was
literally responsible for my job was making sure that the
right messages were going into the bill for people who
(19:27):
received their insurance bill. Like it was such a specific job, right,
Did I need to be involved in every little detail?
And did I need to make sure it was correct
that I need to micromanage that particular activity. Did I
need to micromanage myself? Absolutely? Absolutely? The issue when you know,
by ten years later I went to not just managing
(19:50):
myself but managing many, many many more people in relationships,
and I took the same approach. You reach a wall
against your sheer physical capacity to be able to do it,
and what leads to it then feeling like this is
not sustainable. I feel like I'm burning out. I'm not
(20:10):
is because we haven't made the shift from a mindset standpoint.
Everything else has has changed, right, has become more expensive
or more complex or or whatnot, and yet we're still
operating in the way that you know you did when
you were stuffing envelopes as an individual contributor. So part
of it is the ability to catch up. You know,
it's no different if your child is you know, three
(20:33):
years old. Yes, it's very reasonable that they throw a
tantrum every time the toy is taken away. Absolutely, that's
reasonable for a three year old. But if they're eighteen
year old, eighteen years old and still doing that, there's
something that hasn't fully caught up, right, And so the
same holds true in leadership as well. So here's the thing.
(20:54):
I think what we end up doing, or what I
see in my clients is they get very then frustrated
and they try to fix their team, like if my
team just did this, if people would just stop asking
me to be at every meeting if it's everything outside
versus saying or asking in what way might I be
contributing to how I'm now feeling burned out? Or in
(21:19):
what way might I be contributing to this toxic environment
that we now have or this toxic productivity that we have.
It's not to say that you own all of it,
but look at your side of the aisle, okay, first
and notice what it is that you are doing or
not doing, and decide what can you take to change
(21:41):
the experience of leading in this particular situation is truly
where it starts.
Speaker 1 (21:50):
Yeah, it brings me to start thinking about sometimes when
you're when you're striving and you want to be you
want to be busy, and you want to be fixing
and doing and being and feel like you want to
be Like being needed by your team means that you're
a good leader, because if they're always coming to me,
I'm the solution finder, I'm the fixer. Oh they need
(22:11):
me again, you know, because I'm the one who can
come in. But some of that can stem from like
the fear of messing up and you know, having to
be like hyper vigilant because you're so afraid to make
a mistake, and rightfully so, especially in a climate where
you know, as a woman of color and leadership myself,
I always felt over scrutinized, and you know, you would
(22:36):
get feedback and you just could I would drive myself
nuts like that? Was that like im I being Gaslet
Is that because I'm a black woman that I'm being
told my own is aggressive and people are intimidated by me?
But yeah, there's a fear of making a mistake. What
would you say when it comes from a place that
(22:56):
makes sense.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
We don't want to we don't want to screw up
the margin of air. And that's right. Do you say
to someone who's yeah, I mean so first of all,
the story you share, which we've you know, I've certainly
been there, right like well, I just somebody just said this,
you know, or even they just looked at me this way,
and all these thoughts come come come to mind around
why it could be. And that's why sharing the book,
(23:18):
even the parable of the two swords, which I think
really underlies the theme of my book and everything we're talking about,
which is uh grounded in this this mantra that comes
from Buddhist circles, which is, you know, pain is inevitable,
(23:38):
suffering is optional. And so there's this story about how,
you know, the Buddha was with a student. And I'm
not religious in anyway. I sort of pick up from
a lot of different things, but the Buddhists.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
Really got it going on. I love it right like
I got my favorite is no mud, no lotus.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
I'm all right, you know, I don't know my my
Christian Church going Mama is somewhere up there's still doing
the Vine Intervention book, being like, uh, Muriel, that's who
you're quoting.
Speaker 1 (24:05):
It needs to doesn't need to know.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
She's all right, she's transcendental now she can she can
see it all. So, but the story is a student,
you know, he had a student and he said, if
if if somebody gets you know, hit by a by
an arrow it's the double arrow, not double swords, gets
hit by an arrow, is it painful? And the student said, yeah,
of course, you know, like of course is painful. And
(24:28):
then the Buddha says, if they get hit by a
second arrow, is it more painful? And the student says, yeah,
it's more painful that second arrow. And so then the
Buddha says, the first arrow are the challenges that we
face in life. We're all going to face them. They happen,
(24:49):
They're inevitable, right, that's life. The second arrow is how
we respond to the first arrow, and it often is
what causes us suffering and more pain. And so when
you share that story of you get the feedback. We've
all gotten feedback that says you should have done this
or you shouldn't do that. That's the first arrow. That's
(25:11):
the feedback. It is what it is, right. The second
arrow is then the oh my god, like, what does
this feedback mean? Does it mean I'm lesser than? Does
it mean I'm this? Does it mean they're that? Does
it mean? It's the whole narrative that we put over it,
And that's what we have control over. That's what we
have control over. But we have to understand where it
(25:32):
comes from, which is why you're question around what is
that grounded? What I have found or through my research
of other people's work, is that typically when the narrative
does not serve us well, it is grounded in three
fundamental needs that we all have as human beings. The
need to feel worthy, the need to feel connected, and
(25:55):
the need to feel safe. So when we don't feel worthy,
when something reminds us that we might not feel safe,
or something reminds us or triggers us that we are,
there's a risk of not being connected. To your point around,
I need my team to want me to be around,
or I am valued by being needed by my team.
(26:18):
Those interpretations we then try to grab by behaving in
a particular way or thinking in a particular way. So
really the work is to understand, you know, why am
I micromanaging, What is the belief that's driving that, and
where does that belief come from? Is it because right
now I feel like I know for me, when I've micromanaged,
(26:39):
it's because I'm feeling stressed, and I'm feeling stressed and
I don't feel safe quote unquote safe because I think
that if I don't get all of this done, I'm
never going to be able to succeed in what I'm doing.
Is that true? No, it's not. No, it's not, but
(27:00):
I have unchecked That's where it goes to, right, the
fear of making mistakes. So one of the beliefs I
talk about that really gets in the way of leaders
is the I can't make a mistake. Does that mean
I'm suggesting that everyone go out there and just recklessly
make mistakes. Not at all. I'm suggesting that that's not
really true across the board. Okay, it doesn't serve you
(27:20):
well across the board. But where does that come from?
When you feel that like, I can't make this mistake.
Everything has to be perfect, and so I'm really going
to procrastinate on it because then I can't make a mistake.
Where it comes from is this need to feel safe? Right?
And why? Because underlying that is also a belief that
if I make a mistake, I won't be able to recover,
(27:44):
which is not always necessarily true. So oftentimes with clients
when they are, you know, procrastinating or not moving forward
with a decision, we talk through if this word ll
go wrong, rather than tell them now, don't worry, it
won't go wrong. Never worried. Right, let's scenario plan if
this word ll go wrong? What's the worst that could happen?
(28:06):
And we walk down that line, and I said, and
if that were to happen, what would you do? Right?
And they are like, oh, I'd be doing this, this
is that, And I'm like okay, and they're like, but
I wouldn't like it, And I'm like, that's all y.
How many times do we have to do things we
don't like. I'm not telling you it's going to be
comfortable or easy, but could you get through it? Yeah?
You could? You have a plan. And that's what we
(28:27):
call self efficacy, which is far more valuable. Then that's
actually what confidence is. Confidence is not oh, I know
I can do it. Confidence actually comes from I know
I can try to do it, and I know I
can learn to do it, and I also know that
if I do it and it doesn't turn out the
way that I want it to, that I will be okay.
(28:47):
On the other side, that's self efficacy.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I do like to look at those, you know, like
my son when he says, Mommy, i'm scared at night.
He's just trying to get me stayed upstairs long and
he'll be like, I'm scared. I'm like scared of what
He's like, there's a goblin in the closet, or you know,
I'm scared that someone's gonna come take me. And I'm like, well,
then what would you do?
Speaker 2 (29:11):
You know?
Speaker 1 (29:12):
And you know, to a certain extent, I don't want
his imagination and to go too wild, but it can
be helpful to say the scary thing out loud. It
just also calls to mind how important it is to
have a sounding board as a leader. And I have
a lot of compassion for people in leadership positions where
they don't necessarily they haven't created that sounding where they
(29:34):
don't have haven't found themselves a coach, or don't have
a mentor to talk to at work, and they're kind
of trying to like fix it themselves and think that
that's what makes a good leader.
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah, what would you say? Yeah, I mean, look, I
think that you know, at at the I have come
to a place where I now understand again through a
lot of my own research and learning and work, and
you know, I have such a privilege to work with
so many different people and really study human beings. At
the end of the day, I know I'm an executive coach,
(30:08):
you know, but in reality, I think I'm a student
of humans, right, Like I'm fascinated by who we are
and what we do. I always have been, I've always
you know. I remember when I was younger, probably in
high school actually, I was like, I think I'm going
to become an anthropologist, which what are anthropologists like? They
study humans? And of course my parents, my dad mainly
(30:28):
was like, you can't do that, like you know, like
and look where I end up. So I went and
got business degree, I went and got my MBA and
still look where I ended up. So that that theme
never left me. I've just learned to express it in
a different way. And what I have come to understand
is that you know, when we're dealing with humans we
(30:50):
learn from if we open ourselves up to learn from them,
they actually, as used we were talking about parenting, they're
a mirror to who we are, right and so sometimes
you need to have somebody else to work with to
help facilitate that being a mirror, whether it's a coach,
a mentor a friend, a peer, etc. Somebody that you
(31:11):
can sound board with. And my hope and my goal
even in the work that I'm doing, is for people
to recognize that with enough at bats and enough practice,
they can learn to be their own mirror. They can
learn to coach themselves, they can learn to grow the
capacity to be able to walk through the questions themselves,
(31:36):
ask themselves the questions that another might ask them. I
often know when I'm at the end of a coaching engagement, which,
by the way, I'm always looking to end them. I'm like,
I do not want to do this in perpetuity with people,
because then I feel like I've failed at my job.
My job, I feel.
Speaker 1 (31:53):
Almost like that's what they're A good therapist will say
to me.
Speaker 2 (31:55):
I mean, yeah, right, I mean I'm not a therapist.
Like I draw the line very tightly on that boundary,
and I do think like my job is for people
to build capacity right within themselves. Here's why it's important
from a leadership standpoint. You know, so much of what
it means to lead is to grow capacity in others, right,
I mean that's what we do. You have people, and
(32:16):
you're trying to get people to do things right, like
you're setting up these systems, and so there's all this
talk about good leaders need to be able to coach. Well.
If you can't coach yourself, which is the best place
you can practice, what foundation are you setting for how
well you can coach others? Right? And so to me, yes,
(32:39):
I think there is a role for the external sounding board.
And I think about how much more potential could be
filled if not only you had an external sounding board,
but you were also tapping into your own sounding board,
which we're not even gonna get that deep is really
around the integration of the masculine and the feminine energy.
I mean, that's what we have in terms of feminine
(33:00):
energies or intuition, our own knowing all of that and
learning to tap into that. I fundamentally believe that the
most effective leaders, the ones who are most expensive, are
able to do both. They have the external teacher and
they have the inner teacher as well.
Speaker 1 (33:15):
I totally see what you're saying. I think when it
comes to like trusting yourself, I trusted myself a lot
for a lot, I mean like and had a lot
of and in my ability and was able to deliver
and to lead. And then there came a point where,
you know, like extra like your life circumstances, you go
(33:39):
through like changes for your life, right like whether it's
like parenting or you know, family dynamics or financial things
or business things, and some things can knock your confidence
like down the line. And I've had a crisis of
confidence in the last couple of years that had it's
(34:00):
kind of like group and I've had to sort of
go back to basics and build myself back up in
a way that it sucked.
Speaker 2 (34:08):
Yeah, I always done with all that. Yeah, we're never done,
Mandy Annoy, Right, I know, I know, you know, I
remember your ma. You're reminding me. I took this this course.
It was right after my mom passed, so it was
about four years ago, and it was a course on
self compassion because I was looking for all the things.
It just helped me, help help me feel better, Like
(34:28):
I was like, can we just help me feel like?
I just want to feel better, Like what's the other side?
Get me there? Because I'm a very outcomest to a
full and I was like, I just want to get
to the other side. And this course was like four
months long and literally we were at like month three
and a half and the and it was all virtual.
(34:50):
And the teacher says, so you know when you do
all these things, like we went into practices like what
can you do? Not the word self care, but you know,
cause so what can you do to like move through things? Da?
Speaker 1 (35:04):
Da da?
Speaker 2 (35:04):
And we have to list them? And I said, okay,
so I did all the things I practiced, but I
don't feel better. And I remember she just she was like, oh, oh, honey,
that's not the point. And I was like, what what
do you mean? That's not the point? Like what have
we been doing for the past three and a half months.
(35:25):
She's like, that's not the point. The point is not
about getting to the other side. The point is what
do you need to do while you're in it so
that you can sustain yourself as you're going through it.
The other side will get there when it gets there.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
Man, give me a refund. I want out.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
I mean, but Mandy, the way it changed everything for me,
I mean I was angry. I was angry. And what
it did for me, which I'm offering to you, is
it helped me lean into The seasons are going to
come and go right. But how I experienced the seasons
is all to me, And what I need during each
season is all up to me. Do I need something external,
(36:05):
do I need something internal? Do I need both? That's
what I have under control. But the season's coming and going,
Winter's gonna come, whether I like it or not, and
then spring's gonna come, and then summer and fall. I
do not have control over that, but I have control
over how I experienced each of those seasons. So which
one would I like better, but as long as I
(36:26):
know they're coming, Like, I am not that special that
I can just stop and say, can we make it
summer all the time? Right? Like I cannot? And so yeah,
you know we are like can we just can this
just end? But you know, the crisis of confidence, it
doesn't have to feel like a crisis of confidence.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
I start feeling shitty, I'm like, wait, I'm not suffering properly.
I should be suffering better. There's a better way.
Speaker 2 (36:51):
There's a better way. Yeah, there is an easier way.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Heyba fam, We're gonna take a quick break, pay some bills,
and we'll be right back. Yeah, it's been a tough year.
You know. Do you have any like if you were
speaking to so, I have been coaching now for three
years now, and it's part of what I do. It's
not the only thing that I do. Obviously, I have
the podcast and other projects. But I so enjoy it
(37:18):
and I but at the same time, I wonder if
you have any advice for me, Like if you were
telling someone like me who's a few years and you've
been doing this for decades, a couple of decades, any
advice for me and how I can how I can
show up.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Better, especially as a coach.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
As a coach, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
You know, I think I think the I mean, the
profession of coaching is We're gonna have like a whole
conversation about profession of coaching. You know. It's very different
than when I started. I mean, there's so many more
people in it, you know, so there's like the business
side of it, you know, and then there's the like
the practice of coaching. To me, the most important work
in being able to be an effective coach are two fold.
(38:02):
One is you have to be able to meet your
clients where they are, which means you have to be
able to study what not just what are they dealing with,
but what's going on in the macro world. You know,
when I work primarily with C suite leaders, but I
study their company, the culture that they're in their industry,
so I can better understand what they're dealing with versus
(38:27):
it projecting you know, my own situation, which might be
very different. So I think that's huge. You've got to
meet them where they are, not just in terms of
the context, but also what they need. You know. While
this whole book is written about mindset and beliefs. Some
of my clients are not ready to go there, like
we are just working at the skill level, like we're
breaking out the calendar and saying, let's highlight what works.
(38:49):
You know, we're very tactical. So that is another big
piece is recognizing and being able to assess where is
my client in terms of capacity, need and context, and
making sure that I am meeting them where they are
and coaching them from where they are towards the goals
that they want, which leads me to the second piece.
(39:10):
It is very important that as coaches we are not
tied to the client's outcomes, because the minute we get
tied to, I will only feel valuable. Right if I
feel like, especially in.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
This job market, it's so hard, I'm like this, it's
it's it's I feel like in this season. Not to
interrupt you, but just the context is like I'm not
coaching C suite leaders. I'm coaching women who are literally
in the middle, you know, entry level, like they're you know,
senior or striving to be more senior. And in this
(39:51):
job market where it's like the knocks just keep coming
and there's things that they can't control. Overturn to office order,
you know, effect of January you're going to like make
that decision or not applying and getting referrals and doing
all the right things but then not getting an interview
because you know the current job market. I have struggled
(40:13):
and it's a challenge for myself because I want to
be the best I can be right and going to
be the best for them. I gotta stop, you hit it.
I'm tying my success to whether they are succeeding, and
I think that's compounding.
Speaker 2 (40:28):
You can support it, you can, but you do not
own it. It's the same with parenting. I do not
own my kid's success. I do not own my kid's life.
I am there to support an usher, but I tell
them all the time, I'm like, I've gone to college,
this is your experience. Every consequence of your actions are
(40:49):
a result of your actions. Okay, I may have influenced them,
but now as an adult, you own that. I will
always be there, but you own it. And I think,
as a coach, you know the job. Here's the risk.
I think the minute we start becoming overly attached to
the outcomes of our client, we become part of their story.
(41:13):
It has nothing to do with us. That's what being
in service of. So if you really want to be
a selfless coach, which I think coaches do need to
be selfless, but I think we have selfless defined wrongly.
Selfless to mean is take yourself out of it. Okay,
take yourself out of it. So what does that look like?
(41:33):
I tell my clients, let's work through the options. The
decision is yours, right. I have no judgment too about
what you decide, and in some of the you know,
I have worked across all different levels of leadership, just
so happens that right now, you know, my focus is
on senior levels. My role is to be there neutral
(41:54):
and to be non judgmental because it's the only place
where they're able to talk about the things, to ask
the questions so that then they can process and get
to a place where they see what the choices are
in front of them and they can make decisions eyes
wide open. I see that as me helping them exercise agency. Okay,
(42:17):
And I tell them very clearly, I will sleep very
well tonight regardless of what you do. And I tell them, yeah,
I'm not afraid to get fired as a coach. I'm
really not. And so that lessons you know, the pressure
(42:38):
not only on me but also on them, and that
just takes constant work. It's not even necessarily coaching work.
It's just pure old human adult self work to recognize
when am I becoming part of the story. And I
still face it, right, but I catch myself and then
I'll say, Okay, Muriel, what's going on here? You know,
you got to clean it up a little bit.
Speaker 1 (42:59):
It's like, if you're going to take credit for someone's success,
it also leaves you feeling like, Okay, well, if they're
not succeeding, then that's also the testimonial, you know, that's
also the outcomes that I'm tied to. Yeah, but it's
so right. I think it's also and I want to
hear about this coaches, this coaching of coaches, because yeah,
(43:20):
I think because I've done it and I haven't thrown
you know, like I said, I've built up nandy money
makers and it's lovely and it's not the only thing
that I do. I haven't really like surrounded myself with
peers in that space, you know, and I think that
may help even just I'm so glad I asked you.
(43:42):
I was a little bit selfish.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I'm like, God, yeah, of course a baby coach.
Speaker 1 (43:48):
You know. I appreciate that. And I think it's also
helpful if you're listening and you're whether you're you've worked
with the coach or might be working with the coach,
to see it as an empowerment for you as well,
and not necessarily like you're clinging to this person.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
That's right, should it's not exactly exactly do you know exactly?
I remember it's one of my favorite one of my
favorite authors and probably you know just teachers. Her name
is Danay Logan, and she wrote a phenomenal book called
Sovereign Love, and I also mentioned her in the book
as well, and I remember hearing her one day and
(44:25):
I can't give credit to exactly what she said, but
but it relates to coaching. It relates to so many
different areas. But somebody was talking about how they were
in a relationship and how that person, when they were
with that person, it made them feel like they could
do everything and anything, et cetera. And a coach can
be that for a client, right, a parent can be
that for a kid. And she's like, and then when
(44:47):
that person left, like I felt like I couldn't do
anything anymore, And Dnay said back to them, you know,
the issue is that you thought that they were the
magic to make you be able to do all these things.
What you need to realize is they weren't the magic.
They were only the mirror to the magic that was
already there that happens in so many different capacities. And
(45:12):
so I think as coaches, it's to help others, as parents,
as anyone, right, help others recognize the magic that's already
there or but that they have the capacity to learn
the things that can get them to where they want,
and you're facilitating that process rather than being the magic itself.
Speaker 1 (45:34):
Yeah. I needed to hear that for sure. You know,
for anyone who's listening and are there considering like working
one on one with a coach, maybe it's out of
their price range and maybe they're thinking about like a
group coaching community instead, where maybe they're in community with
others and it's like there's lower barrier to entry. If
(45:55):
you have any advice there or any distinction between the two,
like how can you have a successful group coaching experience?
Speaker 2 (46:03):
Yeah, I mean I think just find one where the
a the coach who's leading it resonates with you. I
think that's really important. And then if you're going to
do anything in a group setting, I know I tend
I'm very much an introvert, so I tend to like ruffle,
and I'm like, I gotta go to the group class,
Like where's the private class?
Speaker 1 (46:23):
Right?
Speaker 2 (46:25):
And what I have learned is as long as I
go in with an openness to learn, and that that
learning may happen in different ways, right, I need to
let go of the control of how it's going to happen,
I will get something out of it. And so I
think there's a posture that you need to have when
(46:46):
you do it in the frame of a you know,
I went to I went to a business school that
was a little different because it was all case study
method and I remember on day one, the professor, first
professor we met with, said, everyone here has something to contribute,
and something that will Sometimes that will be by sharing
(47:07):
your experience. Sometimes that will be by asking the questions.
Sometimes that will be just by listening. Be discerning about
how you're contributing at every moment. And so I've always
carried that into every group setting, that there are different
ways of contributing and different ways of learning, and so
I think in a group coaching, that's you know, that's
(47:27):
what you could look for as well.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
Yeah, one hundred percent, I'm with you. Sometimes as an introvert,
even a one on one is too much like one
on two.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
It's like, I know, like, let me read the book.
Speaker 1 (47:41):
Podcast I could like listen to.
Speaker 2 (47:44):
But but you know, I've learned, like I've had to
like look at my own assumptions around why am I
devaluing the community aspect of it? There's we need both,
you know, we need the individual solitude, time with ourselves
and again if we perceive community as a place of
learning and growth, which I think there is huge. You know,
(48:07):
you don't you don't run into the challenges in isolation
that you know. I look at community now, and when
I talk about community, it's my friends, it's my family,
it's people that I have to be around. I look
at them as that's where I practice. I might be
learning when I'm on my own, but I practice when
I'm in community, right, because that's when the mirror really happens.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
You know, you mentioned in the book you talk about
like belonging, and I think I made the mistake of
like when I was in leadership. One of the you know,
beliefs I had was that I needed external validation to
feel as if I belonged in the position I had,
And I just wonder, I know we're at times, I'll
(48:51):
i'll wrap up with this, but I wonder if you're,
you know, into any listeners who may be feeling like
do I belong here and they're waiting for someone to
give them the feedback that they want, or even they've
gone into leadership hearing. I work with women of color
right our listenership is mainly women of color, and I
never want to contribute to too much of the narrative
(49:14):
that our backs are up against the wall, no one
believes in us, we're going and we're underpaid, undervalue. No
one's going to want you in the position that you're in.
I think that's very detrimental. I'd like if you just
talk about like how to increase that sense of belonging and.
Speaker 2 (49:29):
How we can do that. Yeah, ourselves, absolutely, And I
talk you know, I dedicate a whole chapter to when
you have that little voice in your head that's saying
I don't belong here, whether it's at a meeting or
in a company or in a you know, I at
times have felt that, and not so much in the workplace,
but I have felt that socially right, and I've had
to unpack like where that was and why that was,
(49:52):
and I understood where it was, why it was what
it was, and you know, I actually struggled with this
chapter because I was conflicted in feeling like, well, gosh, like,
how do you ever feel like you belong if other
people make you feel like you don't belong or if
they don't want you to belong, right, which there are
(50:13):
systems set up for some of us not to belong, Okay.
And one of the things that doctor Shufali Saveria, which
we've talked about, introduced to me, is this notion that
everything is co created, right, everything is co created, and
so in the and so in the aspect of belonging,
(50:37):
there are different actors to that. They are the ones
who make you feel like you don't belong or who
take actions that can lead to you not belonging. And
there's how you receive that, which is how you respond
to it. So, going back to that story of the
two arrows, the first arrow is systems that are set
up for certain people to not belong that's the first
(50:57):
er that is true. I'm not absolving it. I don't
think it's right. It exists. Fact. The second arrow is
how we respond to it and how we feel about it.
And what I see is that the minute we start
internalizing the very thing that those systems are set up
to do, it then drives this mantra of I don't
(51:21):
belong here, right, and causes us to suffer even more
from something that's already painful. And so what I share,
you know what, or not even share where my clients
tend to come out when we are working through this,
which often show which surprisingly Mandy like a lot of
my clients are not from underrepresented groups. Okay, let me
(51:41):
just start there, and they feel this too, right. In fact,
there's a podcast episode that's coming out next week where
it's about a gentleman senior level table and he feels
like he doesn't belong. That's who I write about even
in the book, and the notion is more around They
come out on the other side feeling like, well, wait
(52:03):
a minute, if I'm here and I am physically here,
why am I saying I don't belong? Why am I
contributing to this story? I'm actually here. They may not
accept me. There's a fine line between being accepted and them.
You know, you belonging to them, but in reality, you
don't belong to anyone, okay. And so really the notion
(52:27):
of belonging is as long as I'm here and I
belong to myself, I belong Let let me Let that
be my mantra. Everything else I've got to deal with
it differently. So there it is a difficult one to
work through, and yet when you do, it can be
very liberating. I share the story about in the book
(52:48):
you Know We Are When my kids were much much younger,
they went to school that you know, the majority of
the kids that were there did not look like them,
and uh, it was so interesting to us because a
lot of the other brown families who were there. You
would hear the parents and they'd be like, oh, man,
isn't it great that we're here, Like this is just
(53:08):
going to set them up for success and blah blah blah.
And what we would tell our kids all the time is, listen,
you're not lucky to be here. They're lucky to have
you here, right, Because we wanted them to step onto
that campus every single day knowing that they have every
(53:31):
right to be there. They belong there because they're there.
No questions asked, they they were there. And I think
the same applies when we're in the workplace. Right, you
were chosen for a reason, you applied for the job,
you were choosing to be here, and as long as
you choose to be here, then you belong the minute
you decide, which there are times when you should say
(53:54):
I don't belong here. There are moments then you'd no
longer belong there. You make that choice. Nobody else makes
the choice of where you belong but you. That's agency.
Speaker 1 (54:05):
And that's why even when you're someone in a largely
like when you are the underrepresented, the few, the only
the difference, it's so important to create your own circle
of support.
Speaker 2 (54:15):
That's right.
Speaker 1 (54:15):
Your kids had you when they came home, to remind
them who they are and that they belong. We so
need that.
Speaker 2 (54:21):
I have a very very good friend of mine, you know,
a black woman very just does doing impactful work in
an industry where she's definitely one of the few, and
just has had a remarkable career. But it's all around
just an amazing person. And one of the things she
always says I know who I am and I know
(54:42):
whose I am, so I can step into any room
and it doesn't not matter whether they think I should
be there or not, which basically says you don't. You
don't dictate that nobody else dictates that you can't because
I already know. And that's that's what that I belong
here comes from. It's an inner sense of belonging that
(55:03):
is so strong that you're not relying on anything externally
to validate it or misvalidate it.
Speaker 1 (55:13):
Yeah, I know, ba fam needed to hear that, and
even if you've heard it before, to hear it now
at a time like this where it's like, you know,
expressions like DEI hire and affirmative action and like all
these institution systems that up to give us a bit
of a leg up to even the level the playing
(55:35):
field are then weaponized against us, and all that noise
and all that bs and the tweets and the tiktoks
and all that. At the end of the day, it
has to like like you said about the second arrow,
we get to like the first arrow, that's the first arrow,
and then we get to choose whether or not we
believe it. I just really I'm so glad that you
(55:57):
came on the show.
Speaker 2 (55:58):
I think, Oh, I'm so glad that I have been here.
I really this has been such a treat. Mandy, you
like good at what you do. It's almost it makes sense.
You wrote a book about it.
Speaker 1 (56:10):
Oh my gosh, look at that again, y'all. My guess
is Muriel M. Wilkins, and her book is Leadership Unblocked,
break Through the beliefs that limit your potential. And y'all
can pick that up wherever books are sold. It's out
October twenty eighth. Yeah, so it'll be out by the
time the stairs, I believe. If not, we can pre
(56:31):
order it. Get them pre orders up.
Speaker 2 (56:33):
Yes, congratulations, Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (56:35):
Man, a huge success.
Speaker 2 (56:38):
Thank you, thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (56:39):
All right, Pa fam, until next time, wish you well. Bye,
Hey ba fam. Let's be real for a second, and
y'all know I keep it a book. The job market
has been brutal, no, not brutal, trash, especially for women
of color. Over three hundred thousand of us have disappear
(57:00):
from the workforce this year alone, and not by choice,
but because of layoffs, disappearing DEI programs, and stagnant wages
that keep cutting us out of opportunity. Our unemployment rate
has jumped to over seven percent, while our pay gap
continues to widen. I know all of that sounds dire,
but here's what I want y'all to know. You do
(57:20):
not have to wait for the system to save you.
That's exactly why I created the Mandy money Makers Group
coaching community. It is a coaching community that is built
for us by us. Inside the community, we're not just
talking about how to negotiate or to how to get
the job that you want. It's about finding purpose in
your career. It's about finding communities and others, feeling seen,
(57:44):
feeling heard, and also having a sounding board and a
mirror to reflect your own magic, your own sparkle right
back to yourself. In this community, you'll get group coaching
led by me, but you also get peer to peer
accountability with proven tools and resources that can help you
do what we have always done since rise. Even when
(58:05):
the odds are stacked against us, despite all the challenges,
we will rise. If you're interested in joining the Mandy
money Makers community and having that support to bolster you
and help you tap back into your magic so that
you can lead your career with intention and heart and
your own intuition. Trusting that again, please join us. You
(58:27):
can find information in the show notes of today's episodes,
or go to mandymoney dot com slash community. That's Mandy
m ndimoney dot com slash community. I would love to
see y'all there. Enrollment is open, so please go check
out mandymoney dot com slash community today
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