September 21, 2025 • 65 mins
This week on Brown Ambition, Mandi sits down with Cheryl McKissick Daniel — President and CEO of McKissick & McKissick, the oldest Black- and women-owned design and construction firm in the U.S. With five generations of legacy behind her, Cheryl has literally changed skylines while paving the way for women and people of color in an industry that wasn’t built for us.
In this inspiring conversation, Cheryl shares:
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The journey behind her new book, The Black Family Who Built America: The McKissicks, Two Centuries of Daring Pioneers.
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How her mother courageously took over the family business after tragedy struck.
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Lessons from navigating a male- and white-dominated industry while building relationships and leading with integrity.
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The power of resilience, prayer, and community when starting from scratch in New York.
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Personal stories of overcoming health scares and why legacy and family history matter more than ever.
From stories of scrappy entrepreneurship in a Manhattan walk-up to multimillion-dollar projects like the Barclays Center and JFK Airport, Cheryl offers both blueprint and inspiration for anyone determined to build their own table—and their own legacy.
Key Takeaways:
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Legacy isn’t inherited, it’s built—brick by brick, generation by generation.
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Relationships and integrity are as valuable as technical skills in business.
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Women have always been at the forefront of resilience and innovation, even when history tries to erase them.
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Creating your own family tree can be a powerful way to honor where you’ve come from and inspire the next generation.
Resources & Mentions:
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Cheryl McKissick Daniel’s book: The Black Family Who Built America
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McKissick & McKissick projects: Barclays Center, Harlem Hospital Center, JFK Terminal One
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey Va, fam, Welcome to wash Day WUSA. I am
so genuinely thrilled to have today's guest with you. It's
a very special episode, a very special person. Today we
are talking all about legacy, grit, building your own table
and maybe a house, and maybe a whole city block,
maybe a whole stadium. We are so hyped to welcome
Cheryl McKissick Daniel. She is the president and CEO of
(00:28):
Mackissick and Mackissick. This is the oldest black and women
own design and construction firm in the country. We're talking
five generations deep, y'all. Cheryl is here to talk about
her brand new book, part memoir. I would say heavy
on the memoir, but also heavy on the inspiration and
really offering. Maybe this wasn't the intent. We'll get into
it a little bit of a blueprint for how to
(00:49):
come through a heavily mail, a heavily pale industry and
rise to the top and face those challenges and to
still dig deep and find that resilience. The book is
called The block Back Family Who Built America, The Mackissics
two centuries of daring pioneers. What a beautiful cover. I
love a cover.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Oh, thank yeah, check out this book.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
So you may not recognize Cheryl, which is probably part
of the plan right visibly, Like you may see her
walking down the street and know that lady has got
some style, some swag, like what does she do well?
You may recognize her work and the work of Machissic
and Machissics. So if you've ever walked by the Barclay Center,
you ever gone to a New York Liberty game, seen
a jay Z show, flown out of JFK maybe, or
(01:34):
seeing the Harlem Hospital Center, chances are Cheryl's fingerprints are
in the blueprint. She's a proud Nashvilian and a Howard
University alum. She's spent over thirty years breaking barriers and
literally changing the skyline in the process. But Cheryl's not
just about building buildings, She's also about building community. So
she's awarded, celebrated, and always focused on opening doors for
(01:56):
other women and people of color in an industry that
has always welcomed us. So here today is Cheryl McKissick.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Daniel.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
I am so so happy and honored to welcome you
to Brown Ambition.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Thank you, Mandy. I am excited to speak with you today.
So this is yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I mean the book itself is it is. It's different.
You don't often get a book like this that's written
by someone who grew up in such a huge, deeply
like like going back five generations of a legacy into
especially by a woman of color. I mean, this is
we're talking about from slavery until now michisic and mckissic
(02:37):
has been through it. What did it mean for you
to put your family story on paper like this in
this way for the first time.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I am so happy to have been able to, you know,
finally get this book done after twenty plus years on
this journey to get this story out. You know, I
started with a person out in Hollywood who was going
to do like a sitcom, and that was in twenty
twenty three, and worked on that for several years and
(03:04):
it didn't go anywhere. And then I met with Marie Brown,
who was a literary publisher from Doubleday, and you know,
we worked with the historian to pull this story together.
But you'd be surprised how hard it is to talk
about five generations and make it interesting. So the first
(03:25):
version of the book that I got it was so boring.
I was like, this is not it. This is not it.
You have to make it with a giving textbook. Uh
it was. Yeah, it was chronological, you know, starting with
Moses mciswick the first, going to the next. And you
know I had read Cast by Isabella Wilkerson, and you know,
(03:49):
she's able to tell stories inside of the history to
make it, you know, a lot more palatable. And so
when I met Nick Childs and and we begin to
talk about what this book should looked like. Nick was
able to then pull it all together and make the
book extremely interesting while giving ten bits of history that
(04:14):
people just may not know. And at the same time,
I wanted to make sure that people understood I'm a
real person. You know, I'm not a made up character.
I have had, you know, all these different issues occur
in my life, and I wanted to bring out the
fullness and what that meant so that I could really
paint a picture of what it's been like to run
(04:36):
this company. But to get this book out and this
day and time when we are experiencing you know that
people want to erase our history, they want to do
away with D and I programs. That's what makes the
timing so perfect, because our book is saying, listen, we
(04:58):
have always been You may want to ignore us, but
we're not going anywhere. We are here. We have provided
black excellence in everything that we have done, and we
will continue to do that. You can't embrase it. There's
nothing you can do. So doing it in this time
and in this in this environment, it means an awful lot.
(05:22):
And my mother told me, Serrol, you better get this
book out before a dot.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Shout out to ninety four year old mom on the
KISSICKI now ninety five. Oh my goodness. That was my
favorite part of the book. I'm not gonna lie. You know,
the machissic like the story of how the design from
the construction firm was created. It's very heavy on the mail,
lots of moseses and you know it was clear that,
(05:51):
like the men were really building the foundation. But then
you have this this switch that happens. You know, your father, unfortunately,
he passes away when you were you're about to graduate
from Howard.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yes, he had a sorry, he first had his stroke
when you and your twin sister were planning your party,
your graduation party from Howard, right.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Right, So we were graduating that Saturday. He probably had
the stroke three or four days before we graduated from Howard,
so we did not walk with our class. We graduated,
but we weren't able to actually attend our graduation hm. Hm.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
And you know, at the time, he was really the patriarch,
I mean, he ran the business. How involved was your
mother leading up to your father falling ill? How involved
was she in the business, Because I'm just so amazed
by how she took the helm and that same week
was walking into the offices like, hello, I am your
new CEO. You're annoyed by that and sorry, I get
(06:52):
used to it. What's going on? How How much was
you involved before that?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
So you know, it was a different day at a
different time. So when my father had to entertain clients,
she would always say, bring them home. Let's just not
go out to a restaurant. Bring them home and I
will cook, which is what she did. She was a
fabulous cook, a great entertainer. She was a school teacher,
(07:20):
and you know, her father had a PhD from Harvard,
so she read a lot. She was into, you know,
current events, so she could have very substantive conversations with
my father's clients. And so they enjoyed coming to the
house and meeting with her, so she was she was
(07:42):
building relationships then with some of the clients, but didn't
know she'd ever have to use it. But as far
as the actual office, but my father, she'll tell you
she only knew the telephone number to the office. She
was not about to go into the office and do
anything until all of this occurred. And when my father
(08:06):
became ill, you know, she decided, listen, I'm gonna hold
on to this company in case one of my kids
are interested. Mind you, my twin sister and I were
just graduated with engineering degrees from Howard University, and my
older sister had an architectural engineering degree, so we were trained,
(08:29):
but the timing wasn't right. We weren't ready to step
in and take over a business. So my mother decided
that's exactly what she was going to do. And you know,
we feel that her master's in psychology really helped her
deal with the manias and phobias of people that just
(08:50):
couldn't understand that a woman could run a business. Because
in those times, all of her friends they were like teachers, libras,
you know, they they weren't lawyers and doctors. And this
was not that long ago.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
This was in the eighties, right, late eighties, mid eighties.
But your mom was also deeply educated, you know, she
really was like one of those women who were they
were part of that generation where it was like get
your education, get your eduction. You know, she was very educated,
came from a very you know, polished and well known family,
right and at the same time that that generation, like
(09:30):
you were, you were brought up to be intelligent and
to be highly educated, but then expected to sort of
like put it to the side a little bit like
underemploy yourself.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yes, yes, And then.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
At the same time, what an amazing how did she
like how brave and how courageous to say I'm gonna
take this entire company and hold on to it for
my girls, when I don't think anyone would have looked
at her sideways had she decided to sell or to
have someone else take it over. Was it something that
your father and her talked about the importance of that
(10:03):
legacy and how they wanted to keep Machisic and Mchisic
in the family. Was the lore if that's something they
all grew up hearing and understanding.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Not at all. I don't think, you know, they this
was a shock to them when my father became ill.
And I don't think there was any planning around succession.
This is something that my mother decided to do. And
you're right, many people, other architectural owners came to her
(10:34):
and said, let me buy your business. You know, you're
a woman, you're not an architect, you're not engineered. You're
not going to be able to handle this. But she persevered.
And also remember during that time, women could not borrow money. Jesus,
a time when only men could borrow.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
I barely have a credit card at that point, right,
you know that didn't happen until nineteen ninety with the
Women's Business Act passed in Congress that you know, you
know that said you can't discriminate against women.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Banks could not discriminate against women. So she was able
to build relationships. I mean, she understood right away the
most important thing was revenue, bringing in new clients and
new projects, and that's what she did. She was very
hard worker. You know, there there were no ubers, there
(11:33):
were he weren't no trains and things in the South.
She's in that kindillact though. I guess she jumping.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
County lines with the cops chasing her. I live for
those anecdotes in the body Live that's her.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
That is her, very strong and very determined. You know.
She she just didn't play. She was my idol, my hero.
She taught me a lot about business development in her
own simple way. You know, I'll never forget weld walk
in the campus of Tuscangee University. Actually it was an
(12:14):
opening of a building that she had just finished designing
and constructing, and the president says to her, you know what,
mister Kissick, I told you I needed operable windows in
this building, and you have built this entire building. Were
not one operable building. We're gonna suffocate. This is Tuskegee, Alabama.
(12:36):
Oh no operable windows. Yeah, so the windows couldn't open.
The windows.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Okay, I didn't know that was a future. One had
to ask for it.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
So Mom said, Mom said, oh, you know, you are
absolutely right, and it's our mistake. We're going to take
out every single woman window and replace it with aquable
windows because some people used you know, air conditioned, so
(13:06):
sometimes they didn't want the windows to open. And so
he was like very happy that, you know, she had
taken this this powerful leadership move to correct the situation.
So now we leave that structure and we're walking on
the campus and she says, aren't you looking for a
(13:28):
new residence. Don't you need somewhere new to stay. It's
like yes. So Mom pointed to this old, dilapidated building
and said, I see you living there. I think we
should renovate that building. And we're gonna call in great columns.
And he said, are you crazy? We have lot of
equipment in that building. You know, we're storing crap. No
(13:50):
one's been in that building. My mother convinced him to
see it differently, and he commissioned her to design this
new presidential residence and how it break out. So in
one day she was able to fix a problem, but
(14:11):
then get another project. And I look at her, you know,
and think about you know, what was she thinking? How
did she know to do that? No one had taught
her that. It was just in eight that she was
able to, you know, understand how to how to endear people.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
M Can you talk about your mother and father's relationship.
She must have really loved and respected him and paid
she was paying attention all those years. She was so
deeply involved with like you know, like you said, hosting
his clients and things like that, did you grow up
kind of seeing your parents have a deep connection and
(14:55):
like do you think that was partly why she was
so devoted to the business after he you know fell ill.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yes, you know, you're absolutely right. She did admire him
and you know his creative ability. You know, he would
sit at the dinner table and sketch out the documents
just in just whyle he's talking. And I think she
really enjoyed that. And then you know he told her
(15:24):
early on, instead of going out and buying a beautiful
Houston dress but all of your friends, he said, I
want you to spend our money and invest in black art.
So she found a true passion in investing in black
art and she really made that her mission and she
(15:49):
enjoyed it. But he is the one who started that.
Now she still would go get a nice dress, but
he definitely spent a lot.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
Of money on art, and you know that that that
created the same passion in myself and my two sisters.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
But their relationship was was very special. I mean they
understood each other. My father was a very eclectic person.
You know, he didn't care how he looked he didn't
care about his clothes and things like that, and you know,
she would dress up and let him do whatever he
(16:30):
wanted to do, if he wanted to put on jeans.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Yeah. I love that dichotomy because he was i mean,
now apart from being a part of this like legacy
construction business and being very successful at Nashville. But she
was the more like polished in prim and like. But
she let him be himself, and he, you know, seemed
to have let her be herself.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Yeah, that's such a great opposite the tract.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Right, that's true.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
And then they were connected and in step when it
came to raising us.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
I was going to get because you cuties the division
of the twin sisters and y'all going on Saturdays with
Daddy to the construction sites. I thought that was so adorable. Yeah,
talk to me about about Darryl also, Cheryl and Darryl
is so funny.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
And my grandmother did that. My mother said, you know,
they told my father she was having twins, but told
him not to tell her. Wait what, Yes, so she
didn't know she was having twins. No, what? No? And
(17:40):
so I was born first, and then you know, they
gave her anesthesia when they began to see my twin
sister's head come out, so she woke up. She had
two daughters, two twins, and my grandmother had named those
Cyril and Daryl.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Okay, now that was different times.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
It's totally different times.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
We're a very different would been like you named my daughters.
What we're just going to x that out right also,
but your dad was so excited to have twin girls.
You write, yes, and at that point you also toward
the end of the book where we're talking more about
legacy and you now have two daughters, and you get
into how it was a very like male dominated, you know,
(18:25):
ownership of the machistic and mechistic up until that point.
Did that start to shift when you and Cheryl and
Daryl were born and came into the picture, and you know,
there just seemed to be more more women, women being
born into the family. And it seems like your dad
really fostered and encouraged your love of business, design architecture
from a young age.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah, I think, you know, he just leaned into it
as opposed to his grandfather, Moldas mckins the second, who
had seven girls first and then seven boys, and each
time they had a girl, they wanted a boy. So
(19:07):
when the first boy came and that was Moses Mciusic,
the ID, they gave him all the names of the
boys they wanted to have. So his name is Moses Edward.
John Henry Lewis my God. So, you know, back in
(19:29):
that time, having a mail was important. I think that
by the time my father came along, and you know,
he had twins and he had my oldest sister, he
leaned into the fact that this is just what it's
going to be, and now how do I get my
girls involved in my business? And that's why he would
(19:54):
take us to the office. That's why he would give
us some new Ward lettering sets. He would give us,
you know, trains. You know, we really didn't get dolls.
Maybe we had one or two, but for the most part,
we were given all these other gifts that you would
normally give a guy.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Yeah, so he's he understood what he needed to do
to get us to get on the path that he
wanted us to be on, like going to Howard University.
He would tell us all the time, you can go
to any school you want to, but the only school
I'm paying for is Howard University. Okay, that's easy enough,
(20:38):
easy enough, easy enough, right, and you're gonna study architecture
and engineering.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, and you're And you and Daryl didn't seem to
resist that. That's such a you really embraced it. You like,
And I'm a mom. I have young boys. I have
a five year old and a two year old, and
I think about I don't want to put too much
pressure on what they'd decide to do. It's very much
like okay, firefighter one day, engineer the next, astronaut or whatever.
But you you at the same time like, ooh, I'm
(21:08):
very big into reading right now. I love the part
where you said your mom would give y'all extra homework
after you Like, I'm very very that mom. He's had
a whole work book this summer, but at this and
I want him to foster a love of reading and writing.
But any any insight into like how do you strike
that balance to where like you're not feeling like the
(21:30):
kids are not resisting. Now you had your rebellious streak.
We're going to talk about that. We love it. We
love a bad girl, but no bad girl. But you
still did your school work. You got A's you went
to Howard you you know, you you did follow in
your in your family's footsteps in that way.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
You know, it was a different day. It's totally different day.
And we were raised by our parents, you know, our
parents and their little enclave of friends where that's who
we saw and that's who made an impression on us,
you know. So there were doctors, there were lawyers, there
were educators, and so we were the only family that
(22:12):
was really in design and construction. And so my twin
sister and I were always very good well when it
came to math. Everything in stem we excelled in. So
it was kind of natural for us. There weren't as
(22:33):
many choices. I remember when my oldest daughter went to
George Washington and she had to choose, you know, what
she wanted to major in, and it was like two
hundred and some are choice, you know, and I'm thinking
to myself, this is ridiculous. You know, back then, we
(22:55):
only had three TV stations, you know, we broke so
we weren't getting a lot of information outside of the
reality of who we are and you know, what our
community stood for, and so we were really being raised
by our parents. I don't think our kids are being
(23:17):
raised by us completely. I think they're having so much
inside out influence that it is affecting, you know, what
we say and what we do. Back then, we whatever
our parents told us to do is what we did. Okay,
So once.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
It was like don't bring don't bring any friends over
while we're at dinner. Everyone listening to that. Well, I
love the I can see. You know, originally when you
said you were thinking about doing a sitcom, I'm like, sitcom?
Is this really giving sitcom? And I'm like, oh, but
if they were doing the young cheryln Darryl years, yes,
I think since sitcom.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Would yes, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I mean you were really like the Huxtables. You were
living Huxtables, you know, in a way we were. We
were just not on the screen obviously. And oh okay,
I want to bring it back to your career trajectory,
and like you said, you know, you're so you're having
this huge life shift. You're you know, having to say
(24:23):
goodbye to the first the version of your father who
you knew after he has a stroke, and then how
long was it before he passed away? After he had
his initials?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
She recovered right, right, So that was nineteen eighty three
when he had this stroke and he passed in nineteen
eighty seven, so five years later. And at that point,
you're you moved to New York City, right, Well, I
start my masters at Howard University. So I'm still in
(24:53):
DC for the next two and a half three years.
And you know, my my father, as a result of stroke,
could not speak. He lost feeling in the left side
of his body, and you know, so he could walk,
but he had a limp. And so he came to
(25:16):
visit me that summer and we did a lot of
speech therapy. That's right.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
You really were like you gave your mom a break?
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Was my mom a break?
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Wonderful?
Speaker 2 (25:29):
And so you know, I was in grad school working
on my thesis. In grad school was a lot of work.
Uh so, concentrating on that while my mom was still
running the business. Was she she was all alone. She
(25:51):
was by herself. And that's when she also sued the
city of Nashville over airport contract and she was blackballed
for several years from getting you know, new contracts in
the city. And so you know, it was a difficult
(26:15):
time and she was taking care of my father, hm,
but he lived long enough for UH to walk me
down the aisle for my first my first wedding.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
I mean, you have to talk about that man who
called your what did he call your father's your family business,
I don't want to repeat.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
It, a nigga business. How are you able to laugh
at that?
Speaker 1 (26:39):
I was mad? I'm like, how quickly do we get
rid of him in this book? Like come on the jealousy? Well, no,
that's an interesting I want to talk about that early
career because at that point, you so you've graduated from Howard,
you've completed your I know you had a rough go
of it doing your your thesis right in grad school
or was that?
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah? It was very rough, Yes, very rough. Understand.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
I mean you also were like caretaking and you know,
a lot going on. So but you're you're feeling that
pull to move, like many young black professionals in like
the early nineties, to go to the big city work
for a big white you know PW I like, work
for these firms that are like impressive, right, but you're
in this rare situation where you actually have, you know,
(27:26):
a family firm, a respectable one that you could be
working for. But can you talk about kind of answering
that call to to move to New York and work
for another big firm instead of working for the family business.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, there was a period of tower where I just
knew I could not go back to the family business.
You know, when I went to Howard, I feel like
I escaped Nashville. Nashville was not the cool spot that
it is right now. You know, it probably had three
hundred thousand people, but it just it wasn't what I wanted.
(27:58):
I wanted, you know, the hustle and bustle, and you
know the opportunity that presents itself in New York City.
You know, our parents used to take us to New
York when we were growing up, and my desire was
to have my professional career in New York and so
I knew that. So when I graduated finally with my
(28:21):
master's debris, the only place that I began to look
for a job was in New York City. I could not.
I felt like I needed to get experience outside of
the family firm to be able to possibly consider coming
back to the family firm. I didn't even think at
(28:42):
that point I would ever go back to the family firm.
But of course, you know what happened, Well, were your parents.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I mean at that point, your father is ill, but yeah,
they didn't like try to. I know your mom eventually
got her close in and brought you back, right, that's
what happened. But before that, they were letting you fly free.
It's it seems like.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
She was letting me fly free. And I would have
stayed in New York if she hadn't called my boss
that day and told my boss that I quit. And
then she called me and told me that I quit,
and I was just shumped.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Okay, So the patterns repeating itself because the way that
her mom named her children for her, well, that's they're
quitting your job for you.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
And then it repeats itself again when I tell her
you're retiring today.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Ah see, you are like little pac men, just like
you know, like your time is up. I mean, game
recognizes game. I guess there's like that level of respect.
Like Okay, well if they're saying and my daughter is
saying and my mother is saying it, but she doesn't
mean she basically at that point is that your father
(29:52):
has passed at this point and she's overwhelmed and she's like,
I need you. You have to come back and work
for us. Right, but even then, you, I mean you
were How did you decide I'm going to stay in
the city half the week and then fly to Nashville
the other half. That's a pretty brutal commute and schedule
to maintain for two years.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Right, So I you know, I just said to my mom, listen,
I just gotten married. I'm really a newly wit. I
have gotten home with my husband. But I can come
and work with you during the week and then on Fridays.
I would work out of the New York office when
when we did not have anything remote.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Okay, which you set up that New York office? You
incorporated yep? In Manhattan?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Right? Yes? Yes, and literally in a four floor walk
up on fifty seventh Street. I mean startup. It was
a startup. Yes, my guys get to.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Start in their parents' garage.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
I feel for walk up. It's very respectable. I remember
when I got my first certification and they had to
come to a site visit, and I told him can
you come around noon, because then I could have all
my friends come to my office that act like they're
working during lunchtime. Wait.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
I did work for a startup where all the photos
on the company website. None of those people worked there.
They were just friends that they brought. I'm like, where
are these people at It was just me, It was
just you. You were scrappy like that. So you're starting
and at that point michistic and mechistic. Like it's very
well known in the South, right, Like you guys were
building billions at at Tuskegee University and in Alabama.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yes, it was a lot. You had a big.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Presence in Nashville, very respectable. But starting up this this
this branch in New York, in Manhattan, in the real
estate capital of the world, at least of America. God,
during the Trump Hey days, like that must have been.
That must have been, Well, you tell me what it
must have been like.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Well, I was very determined and I had a strategy,
and so I just made myself stick to it. I
knew I needed to identify the agencies in New York
City that had the most capital dollars, and that's what
I needed to pursue. And this was in the infancy
(32:21):
of minority women own business programs, and so those programs
a loted I would say back then, like eight percent
of a project would go to minority women owned businesses.
You know, today it's like over thirty between thirty and
fifty percent that go to minority businesses, but when it
(32:44):
first started, it was only like eight percent. So I
felt like, you know, well, that's good because that gives
me an opportunity to be a subcontractor to larger companies
that provided the exact same services. But they could show
me the ropes, show me how to build in New
York because New York is a complicated place. You know,
(33:05):
you have to get building permits. You're working with unions
and non union people, community people, and you know where
the three meet is not beautiful. Yeah, you know, you're
you're dealing with the m t A, the f t A,
(33:26):
you're all the agencies when you are constructing a building
that you have to interface with DP just getting trash
off the site. I mean, it's a complicated thing that
I was grateful that a lot of my strategic alliances
were able to help me with that. But it's true
(33:49):
when I when I would go in to pitch the business,
I would tell people all this repertoire of business that
mckisick had done, and people would look at me with
straight face and safe. But none of it's in New York,
so we don't care what you did in Nashville or
Memphis or in Alabama. You don't have any New York experience,
(34:13):
so you're starting from scratch. And I would say, well,
not really, I do understand how to build. Maybe I
haven't done it here in New York, but I think,
you know, I offer probably the best scenario for you
to get your MWBE requirements met with an established company.
(34:37):
You know, I think the main thing is being able
to have capital in this business. And when I first started,
I really didn't have a lot of capital. But I
had friends who worked on Wall Street who did have,
you know, some money, And so when I had to
(34:58):
make my first payroll and I had no cash, I
went to them, and I mean it was It's a
great story of black solidarity being able to go to
five friends, maybe with six, and they each gave me
five thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
You were trying to hire one architect or project manager
or someone you needed to get your first big job done.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I need to get my first big job done. And
you know how that is. You have to you put
in your invoice after you worked for thirty days right,
and then you know, it goes back and forth, it
has to be corrected, then it has to go through
a government tape red tape system for them to actually
(35:48):
release a payment. So that cycle could take anywhere from
three to six months before you get your first check, right, and.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
So you're trying to pay them before all that stuff
has had like before all the.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Right, but you have to make your payroll every two weeks.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Got it? Okay? Yeah, it sounds highly stressful.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
So that's what I needed funding for. And my friends
on Wall Street did that for me.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Hey ba, fam, we got to take a quick break,
pay some bills and we'll be right back. You mentioned alliances.
You mentioned relationships. That is such a recurring theme throughout
the book and in my work, I do a lot
of coaching around negotiation, salary negotiation, compensation package negotiation, negotiation.
(36:37):
And I know they're so sick of me talking about
how important relationships are just to your you know, your
overall earning's ability and your ability to negotiate from a strong,
you know, place of leverage. And I was excited to
see how much in your book relationship building was a
strategy forget about blueprints and permits, and all that you
(36:59):
were like really working hard to build your network in
New York. Can you talk to me about how you
went about doing that and and like any advice you
have for our listeners who are struggling with that part
building a name for themselves.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Yeah, building uh relationships is extremely important and I think
it's important to build them even before you need them.
That part, yeah, and and and all of that goes
into building your name. You know, my grandparents lived off
(37:37):
of the four piece, which was for perseverance, persistence, with parentness,
and purpose. And then I would always add the fifth P,
which is prayer.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Okay, prayer. I was thinking people profit prayer, Okay, very
good prayer.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
You know, going out and two events every evening after
working all day is not easy, but it's something that
you have to do because you don't know who that
one person you're gonna meet at an event of five
hundred people that's going to help you and take you
(38:18):
to the next level. But I can say that every
time there's been a change or an elevation in mciswick,
it's all come through people. It's come through that one
or two people that I met somewhere who wanted to
give me an opportunity and help me in some way,
(38:41):
and so I think that is extremely important. I think
the other thing that builds your name is integrity, and
that is, you know, underpromising and over delivering. You have
to be We had to be on budget. We had
to complete our projects on time, no matter what, to
(39:02):
working around the clock, making sure that everything you submit
is excellent. All of these things actually matter in the
scheme of things. Because we're reading my book, there are
people who try to cut corners.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Yeah, the body count in your book is Quieigh. You
tell a story about one person and it's like, well,
they were found victed, they were found.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Corrupt, are in jail. Anyway, I'm just moving along right,
and so the cream does rise to the top. But
you have to always do the right thing. You have
to always think about, Okay, I'm receiving a million dollar
(39:49):
payment and only one hundred thousand is really mine. The
rest is for subcontractors, and they need to be paid immediately.
And so we make sure we pay our subcontractors as
fast as we can, even if we have to advance them,
because we're only as good as they are, you know,
(40:11):
we have to rely to them on them to come
to the job to actually build things, and so it's
important I think that you know relationships. I agree with you, okay,
one hund.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
And you also had that incredible training growing up being
a kid at the dinner table among all the grown ups,
being a kid at those like these amazing lake these
like lakeside late night parties you would talk about and
like that your family would have. You'd all be together,
mixed mixed ages and stuff. And I think like you
developed probably such a fluency and human like relationships and communication,
(40:52):
you know, And then by the time you were in
that position to lead at Mechissic and Meckissic, I can
see how you had that. Did you feel like, Okay,
this is like all these years of having like the
gift of gad and watching my parents interact with their
clients their friends, Like, that's such a skill set that
it's hard to teach. Like when you know, if you
(41:14):
just keep your head down in your books and you're
focused on your work, it's really hard to teach that
secret sauce of human relationship building. Can you see how
that was like building for you at from a young age?
Speaker 2 (41:26):
You know, yes, I think, but all of a sudden
one day, it's like a wave comes over you and
you're like everything's coming together all at once, and you
can't believe it. You're like, I'm comfortable with who I am.
I'm comfortable with what I'm saying and what I represent
(41:49):
other people. You know, I don't have any fear of
other people and what they think about me. I don't
have a problem being the only woman, are the only
black woman in the room. I know that I have
something to contribute, but it comes over time. You know.
(42:12):
I'll never forget my second husband, after like fifteen sixteen
years of running my business in New York City, he
goes to an event with me, and I was so
used to running up people. Hi, my name is Cheryl
mckiss it, and here's what my company does. And you know, what,
what do you do? You know, I'm running up to everybody.
(42:33):
And he finally says, Cheryl, I think everybody knows. You
don't think you have to run up to them anymore.
Just try it, And I'm like, Okay, I'm never bringing
him to another event again.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
That's why he was number two. We had to get
through some riff raff. Cheryl, where are you finding these men?
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Well, he was right. The next event I went to,
I did not run up to anybody, and people did
make their way to me, because you know it is
it can be a little uncomfortable in the beginning when
you're the only black woman and you see five hundred
(43:17):
suits of those men, white men, and so what do
you do? They know each other, they're speaking to each other.
So how do you get yourself to be relevant in
the room. And the way I did it is I
would go up and just say hello, but I'd have
to talk myself into it. Cheryl, you aren't going to
(43:41):
go over and say hello right now to somebody, and
I would force it, and I did that for years.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
I love that anecdote in the book because this is
a strategy that I use. I'm very introverted. I have
social anxiety. What I love showing I know, I know,
And I love showing up early because it's quiet. You
can get a feel of the room. I want to
know where my exits are, where's the bathroom, where is
everything going to be set up? And then it's easier
to strike up a conversation when it's just a few people.
(44:12):
But then in this one party you go to, you
get a tap on the shoulder and it's Michael Bloomberg,
who's just like hey, And that strategy really benefits you,
you know, I wonder, you know, and I don't know.
I'm not in a I'm not a CEO of a
major construction firm. Going to these I have such a privilege.
I get to talk to people who look like us
(44:32):
every day. It's the best. I'm spoiled for it. My
tolerance for white men talking nonsense to me is very
low now it's dangerously low. But so being in those spaces,
you know, you talk about like having to build up
that confidence in yourself and who you are and what
(44:54):
you have to offer. But can we talk about as
you're collecting or building these relationships with with white men,
you know, prominent white men in your field, to start
to who maybe doubt you in the beginning and you
kind of have to work over that hope with them
and not take it too personally. Can you talk about then,
like the meaningful mentorship that you were able to get
(45:16):
out of, like investing in these relationships and kind of
proving yourself.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
Yeah, I mean, so the you know, what's interesting is
the very organization that I said I went to and
there were five hundred suits. It was the New York
Building Congress. And you know, I used to think I
am never going to make it anywhere in this organization
(45:40):
because I just don't fit in that same organization. Now
I am interviewing to be chair of well thirty years later, wow, okay.
And so I have had six or seven interviews with men,
(46:04):
all white men that I have built relationships with over
the last thirty years, and the response was just so
overwhelmingly positive. And you know, one of them even said
to me, well, I don't know why we didn't do
this a long time ago. So you know, there becomes
(46:26):
there comes a time where you developed that mutual respect
and I think that's you know, what I was able
to do with a lot of my peers, and it's
a very good it's a very good feeling to know
that they see me in that light and that over
(46:47):
the years, you know, we may have had our run ins.
You know, I may have had to have my black
girl moment to get somebody straight okay now, but it
ended up opening up their eyes, showing them their blind spots,
and changing them in a sense.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Hey, ba fam, We're going to take a quick break
pay some bills and we'll be right back. I would
love nothing more for them to be a black female
chair of an organization like that. In twenty twenty five,
you know, you talk about the importance of that designation
Minority and Women Owned Business an Enterprise WMBE in New York.
(47:32):
You know, even when I was launching Brown Ambition and
then my coaching practice, I went through the application process
for MWBE and at the time I didn't know it
was well maybe it wasn't at the time, but certainly
since Trump has had his second term, you see this
like shifting energy toward programs like that and now DEI
of it all. Obviously they're trying to dismantle every diversity
(47:55):
you know, and inclusion organization and program. Can you talk
a little bit about how is it for you having
benefited from this program also having witnessed the abuse of
this program. You talk about the number of companies that
were pretending to have a whim, a woman or a
minority you know, leader at the top to take advantage
of this program. But how do we prevent programs like
(48:19):
this from going away? Like what can we do? Will
this chair position give you a little bit more power?
In the room to stop that so that more women
in minority owned businesses, you know, are able to access
opportunities to stick around.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
So I don't believe these programs are going to go
away because it's so much needed, and I think there
are more people that want these programs then don't want them.
I just think we have an administration that is trying
to impose their will on the minority because the majority
(48:58):
of people, I think understand why we need diversity, and
they want diversity, and it just so happens that in
New York we're encapsulated here and our programs are probably
going to stay intact because there are state and city programs.
(49:24):
I have to say, I'm a little bit concerned. We
expanded our company to Orlando, Florida, probably about three or
four years ago, and we were certified as a minority
woman owned business. They are the Airport of Florida is
(49:46):
trying to get a grant from the federal government for
their capital program and they were told if they have
a DEI program, they would not be able to get
the funds, and so Florida suspended their MWBE program just
(50:08):
like that. Just like that, and Orlando, which is you know,
a blue city. You know, they're they're clear that they
don't want to get rid of it, but they need
the money. So, you know, I look at New York
and I look at New York City and state and
(50:29):
how much money we get from the federal government, and
so that concerns me. You know, we we have we
generate our own. Our our state budget is two hundred
and fifty one billion.
Speaker 4 (50:46):
Okay, we schederate a lot of money on our own,
but we still rely on the federal government for our
transportation systems, you know, for the Gateway project, which is a.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Tunnel between New York and Jersey. It's just so many
things are airports, and so we'll see what happens. You know,
I feel like people are just trying to hold on,
hold on to a remnant of what's it's been like
(51:23):
to try and get through this administration.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
It's been a long year.
Speaker 2 (51:28):
I know, what's happening once is what makes you fearful
of what could happen over the next. Yeah, three months.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
You're in the position where you have you have Claude
and worked your way so hard for so long to
establish Meckisic and Machissic to like be in a stable place.
You talk about and thank you also for your transparency.
You know, you're talking about your you know, stressing about
that call from your banker and like having to get
lines of credit and dealing with like the financial stressors
(52:01):
of running this corporation. But you also talk about you know,
you're you're in a position where you're feeling more stable,
you're looking toward growth and diversifying the business even further.
Do you feel a little bit inoculated from what's happening
like that, for example, in Florida with them doing away
with that program, or is machisic and machistic going to
be okay?
Speaker 2 (52:22):
I think we're gonna be okay. Yes, you know what
if people really want to do D E and on,
they're they're gonna shift and call it something else. You know,
they're still going to do it. And there's plenty of
people out there. Yeah, as far as New York, which
(52:46):
is our you know, our home, our foundation, our this
is everything, our corporate headquarters. Like I said, we haven't
seen it yet. We haven't seen it. I don't know
what's going to happen here. But I can say that
our projects are so long term, so let's take JFK
(53:09):
Terminal one. We've been on that product. They need it. Honey.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
I'm so glad to hear something's happening. It's hard to
say I agree with Trump on something, but it is giving.
Speaker 2 (53:19):
Yeah, well it's getting better at We got to first
phase in twenty twenty six, and then Phase B will
go on till I think twenty twenty nine, and so
our projects are so long term that I feel that
we will be okay under this administration.
Speaker 1 (53:40):
This might be a weird pivot, but I've been dying
to ask you. I'm I think all the girls are
obsessed with the Gilded Age right now? Have you watched
or are you a fan?
Speaker 2 (53:49):
I love it? Do you? Yes? You know they just hadn't.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
I'm only on season two. But you know Peggy Scott,
the black journalist character played by the Dinner, You know,
she goes to Tuskegee University and I think she's covering
the opening of their dormitory. And I just thought Mackissic
and Mackissic was there, like.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
I was waiting. I was like, is there a machistic?
Speaker 1 (54:13):
Is there a character? Is there going to be portrayed?
Is there a Moses somewhere.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
Well, if Chan, my pr consultant is here, is she
she would love for me to have a cameo. Oh
would you put the coursing on? Come on now with
that busto?
Speaker 1 (54:27):
Do a cameo with the booty bump, the booty whatever
they put in their dress.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
Oh god, that was terrible. I hate those things. Yeah.
I think that show was very different, and the women
have prominence in the show, so I really like it.
Speaker 1 (54:44):
I thought about you too also when they reveal the
engineer behind the Brooklyn Bridge as a woman.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
Oh yes, yeah, And I.
Speaker 1 (54:51):
Was like, wait is that true. I'm like, learn of
my histories. But yeah, it's good to know. Okay, you're
also a fan.
Speaker 2 (54:57):
I was like, I'm at AIG fan. It feels like there's.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
Mechistic and mechistic angle here, Like you know, maybe maybe
maybe HBO will give you a call. All right now,
I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about like this this.
You know, the past ten years or so with you know,
you've had some you've run into some health scare as well.
I don't know how long ago it was that you
(55:22):
had a stroke in the middle of your very busy
work day. How are you doing today and how are
you taking care of yourself?
Speaker 2 (55:31):
Well, very good question. So you know, they never really
could tell me what caused my stroke. It was a
shower of clots to the brain, but it was assumed
it came from my bicuspic bow in my heart, which
over time continued to calcify, especially during COVID and so
(55:56):
on February twenty fifth, I had open heart surgery to
yes to replace that vow and repair my order which
had turned into a order aneurysm.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
Bored. Okay, so is this the cracker my dad had
open heart surgery?
Speaker 2 (56:13):
Is at the full?
Speaker 1 (56:15):
Oh that's a rough recovery.
Speaker 2 (56:18):
Well, you know, it wasn't as bad as I thought
it was going to be. You know, I was at
the hospital in five days and the technology, I think
is just superb. And you know, I was back to
working out with my trainer probably three months later. So
(56:40):
my recovery was was you know, it wasn't great, but
it wasn't bad mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (56:48):
And it was something that you knew was going to
eventually going to have to happen.
Speaker 2 (56:52):
Yes, I knew it was eventually going to have to happen.
And you know, now my doctor says, I'm repaired for life.
So I'm happy about that. Bless Yeah.
Speaker 1 (57:03):
And do you think you're seeing what your dad went through?
Did that because you knew immediately, like the symptoms you
were feeling, you had really high blood pressure that day,
you were even at your doctor's office.
Speaker 2 (57:13):
That went to that same day and that morning blood.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
Pressure is a little high. Leave fine. You know you're
you're being whisked from event to event in the city
and all of a sudden your arm goes limp. Yes,
thank god that you knew what was that based on
what you experienced with your dad or just like your
own knowledge. How you know your husband at that time,
he's a he's a doctor.
Speaker 2 (57:39):
But my husband always said, you know, watch the watch
out for this if this happens, you know, with respect
to your mother, never thinking it was me. Oh yeah.
And so when it happened to me, I'm like, oh
my god, I'm having a stroke. And I called him
(58:00):
and he said, stop playing, Like why I am having
a stroke. Are you sure you weren't just leaning on
your arm? Oh come on now, I am on my
way to emergency room.
Speaker 1 (58:16):
I'm so amazed that you just stuck with it too,
because you know, it's not uncommon for women to experience
these symptoms and then to discount them or ignore them
or just say, oh, it's just whatever, and then you
end up hearing these horrible stories of how they pass
away or you know, or worse.
Speaker 2 (58:32):
Right, and they lingering symptoms from from the stroke. But
because I got to the hospital so fast, ten or
fifteen minutes, you know, they were able to give me
the TPA that dissolves all plots. They have to do that,
I think within the first hour or two were to
(58:55):
be effective. And then you know, all the feeling came
back in my arm and I had one hundred percent recovery. Incredible, incredible.
Speaker 1 (59:09):
I'm glad that's that's your mama's jeans pulling through.
Speaker 2 (59:12):
And I know, and I think I talked about my neurologist,
another blood.
Speaker 1 (59:19):
The woman, Yes, tell me about her a fabulous.
Speaker 2 (59:26):
So she was on the phone with her intern when
I was in the emergency room and my blood pressure
was extremely high, and so they had to get my
blood pressure down before they give you the TPA because
your vessels, your blood vessels could actually burst from from
the pressure, and so mine was just borderline. And my
(59:50):
husband looked at me. He's like, yeah, you gotta do it.
But Carol and Brocketon. Brockington was on the phone, and
you know, she was telling this intern stuff by step
and I'm like, well, whoever he's talking to, she knows
exactly what she's talking about. I had no idea was
a black woman. I'm thinking, I didn't even know it
(01:00:11):
was a woman. All I knew is the doctor on
the other end of his of the phone was sharp
and on top of everything. So when I came to
a couple of days later and she came to visit
in walks this fly fly woman. I mean she is
(01:00:32):
dressed to the nines. She has lace gloves on, black
lace gloves on with her rings old top.
Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
I was like, what in the Gray's Anatomy is this character?
Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
And I'm like, it's somebody coming to visit me, and
that's my doctor. I just love her anything, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
You sell your doctor today, y'all have check ups or
anything like that or just.
Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
Yet, No, not anymore, not anymore. But recently I heard
someone who you know, had say who had a stroke
who ended up in her care and I'm like, well,
I know they're doing okay.
Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
Yes, I always love those encounters. Yeah, you know, the
whole word minority. I'm really I've been like, I'm tired
of the word minority. I want us to be called rare.
We're just like rare gems flirting out here. When you
come across a rare diamond, you don't call it a
minority diamond, right, It's a rare diamond, you know, right,
You're right, You're right. And that's why I was really
towards the end of the book. You know, you're talking
(01:01:33):
about your legacy now and mentoring young people, and you've
been visiting your alma mater. But to sort of wrap
this conversation up, what would you like to say to
the next generation coming up? You know, unfortunately not all
of us come from fifth generation legacy businesses and the
(01:01:53):
way that you do. We may be looking to build
our own.
Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Though, absolutely, Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
Yeah, Any like parting words or advice.
Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Yeah, I mean I would say everybody has a legacy
and you can create your own. If you don't know,
everyone should do a family tree, even if it starts
with just you and your parents. I would assume you
know your parents, but maybe you don't, but you'll know
your children. Yeah, And pass it down because there's something
(01:02:26):
to be said about knowing where you came from. And
if you start with the information you do know, over
time you'll start feeling out the information that you don't know.
And so I think that's a major takeaway from from
this book that that's what got me excited around them.
(01:02:49):
Macisic story, and that is my grandmother had a family tree,
and I took that family tree and I filled it
out with my generation and the generation after me.
Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
Oh amazing. So where does that live? Is it literally
just like a picture?
Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
I'm like, you know, well, yeah, I have lost it
several times. I have it again.
Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
I mean, and then you say, moment for the artwork
in the book, because you have some really if you're
watching on YouTube. I loved getting the surprise of like
seeing these full colored paintings and portrayals of your family.
So these were are these paintings of photographs that you
guys commissioned?
Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
Yeah, there were photographs that my father had and you know,
he restored the photographs and they painted them.
Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
Oh that's beautiful, What a great gift.
Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
I'm thinking about, what's that that's my father's work? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
Oh, they're just yeah, I mean they it's it's lovely,
and then you get to sort of like add the
color and add the hues, and I think that's amazing.
That's a great part in gifts. And I think it's
really women. Women in my family too, are the ones
holding the family trees and really caring about that and
caring about the stories. Yes, I'm got me call my
ant Brenda right quick, by the way.
Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
Right and find out this guy is your family.
Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
I know she has it somewhere. She's been working on it.
She's like, somebody please help me with this. But Cheryl
mckissic Daniel, I just want to say thank you for
being so generous with your time, with all the glitches
and all that we got through it. I knew you were.
I'm like, this is a CEO. She is going to
be able to handle this. It's handled. Congratulations on the book.
Everybody go get your copy again. Holding it up here, Well,
(01:04:32):
don't worry.
Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
Listen.
Speaker 1 (01:04:33):
I wish you could see my background right now. I am,
I'm in I'm under construction of my new office, is
what I know. But it's really annoying background. The black
family who built America, the Machissics, two centuries of daring pioneers.
My guest today has been Cheryl McKissick Daniel. Thank you
so so much. Be well and thank you for sharing
your story with us. Thank you, Okay v a fan,
(01:04:56):
Thank you so much for listening to this week's show.
I want to shout out to our production team, Courtney,
our editor, Carla, our fearless leader for idea to launch productions.
I want to shout out my assistant Lauda Escalante and
Cameron McNair for helping me put the show together. It
is not a one person project, as much as I
(01:05:18):
have tried to make it so these past ten years.
I need help, y'all, and thank goodness I've been able
to put this team around me to support me on
this journey and to y'all bea fam I love you.
Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
So so, so so much.
Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
Please rate, review, subscribe, make sure you sign up to
the newsletter to get all the latest updates on upcoming episodes,
our tenth year anniversary celebrations to come, and until next time,
talk to you SOONBA guy
Hey Va, fam, Welcome to wash Day WUSA. I am
so genuinely thrilled to have today's guest with you. It's
a very special episode, a very special person. Today we
are talking all about legacy, grit, building your own table
and maybe a house, and maybe a whole city block,
maybe a whole stadium. We are so hyped to welcome
Cheryl McKissick Daniel. She is the president and CEO of
(00:28):
Mackissick and Mackissick. This is the oldest black and women
own design and construction firm in the country. We're talking
five generations deep, y'all. Cheryl is here to talk about
her brand new book, part memoir. I would say heavy
on the memoir, but also heavy on the inspiration and
really offering. Maybe this wasn't the intent. We'll get into
it a little bit of a blueprint for how to
(00:49):
come through a heavily mail, a heavily pale industry and
rise to the top and face those challenges and to
still dig deep and find that resilience. The book is
called The block Back Family Who Built America, The Mackissics
two centuries of daring pioneers. What a beautiful cover. I
love a cover.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Oh, thank yeah, check out this book.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
So you may not recognize Cheryl, which is probably part
of the plan right visibly, Like you may see her
walking down the street and know that lady has got
some style, some swag, like what does she do well?
You may recognize her work and the work of Machissic
and Machissics. So if you've ever walked by the Barclay Center,
you ever gone to a New York Liberty game, seen
a jay Z show, flown out of JFK maybe, or
(01:34):
seeing the Harlem Hospital Center, chances are Cheryl's fingerprints are
in the blueprint. She's a proud Nashvilian and a Howard
University alum. She's spent over thirty years breaking barriers and
literally changing the skyline in the process. But Cheryl's not
just about building buildings, She's also about building community. So
she's awarded, celebrated, and always focused on opening doors for
(01:56):
other women and people of color in an industry that
has always welcomed us. So here today is Cheryl McKissick.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Daniel.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
I am so so happy and honored to welcome you
to Brown Ambition.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Thank you, Mandy. I am excited to speak with you today.
So this is yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I mean the book itself is it is. It's different.
You don't often get a book like this that's written
by someone who grew up in such a huge, deeply
like like going back five generations of a legacy into
especially by a woman of color. I mean, this is
we're talking about from slavery until now michisic and mckissic
(02:37):
has been through it. What did it mean for you
to put your family story on paper like this in
this way for the first time.
Speaker 2 (02:42):
I am so happy to have been able to, you know,
finally get this book done after twenty plus years on
this journey to get this story out. You know, I
started with a person out in Hollywood who was going
to do like a sitcom, and that was in twenty
twenty three, and worked on that for several years and
(03:04):
it didn't go anywhere. And then I met with Marie Brown,
who was a literary publisher from Doubleday, and you know,
we worked with the historian to pull this story together.
But you'd be surprised how hard it is to talk
about five generations and make it interesting. So the first
(03:25):
version of the book that I got it was so boring.
I was like, this is not it. This is not it.
You have to make it with a giving textbook. Uh
it was. Yeah, it was chronological, you know, starting with
Moses mciswick the first, going to the next. And you
know I had read Cast by Isabella Wilkerson, and you know,
(03:49):
she's able to tell stories inside of the history to
make it, you know, a lot more palatable. And so
when I met Nick Childs and and we begin to
talk about what this book should looked like. Nick was
able to then pull it all together and make the
book extremely interesting while giving ten bits of history that
(04:14):
people just may not know. And at the same time,
I wanted to make sure that people understood I'm a
real person. You know, I'm not a made up character.
I have had, you know, all these different issues occur
in my life, and I wanted to bring out the
fullness and what that meant so that I could really
paint a picture of what it's been like to run
(04:36):
this company. But to get this book out and this
day and time when we are experiencing you know that
people want to erase our history, they want to do
away with D and I programs. That's what makes the
timing so perfect, because our book is saying, listen, we
(04:58):
have always been You may want to ignore us, but
we're not going anywhere. We are here. We have provided
black excellence in everything that we have done, and we
will continue to do that. You can't embrase it. There's
nothing you can do. So doing it in this time
and in this in this environment, it means an awful lot.
(05:22):
And my mother told me, Serrol, you better get this
book out before a dot.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Shout out to ninety four year old mom on the
KISSICKI now ninety five. Oh my goodness. That was my
favorite part of the book. I'm not gonna lie. You know,
the machissic like the story of how the design from
the construction firm was created. It's very heavy on the mail,
lots of moseses and you know it was clear that,
(05:51):
like the men were really building the foundation. But then
you have this this switch that happens. You know, your father, unfortunately,
he passes away when you were you're about to graduate
from Howard.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Is that right?
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yes, he had a sorry, he first had his stroke
when you and your twin sister were planning your party,
your graduation party from Howard, right.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Right, So we were graduating that Saturday. He probably had
the stroke three or four days before we graduated from Howard,
so we did not walk with our class. We graduated,
but we weren't able to actually attend our graduation hm. Hm.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
And you know, at the time, he was really the patriarch,
I mean, he ran the business. How involved was your
mother leading up to your father falling ill? How involved
was she in the business, Because I'm just so amazed
by how she took the helm and that same week
was walking into the offices like, hello, I am your
new CEO. You're annoyed by that and sorry, I get
(06:52):
used to it. What's going on? How How much was
you involved before that?
Speaker 2 (06:56):
So you know, it was a different day at a
different time. So when my father had to entertain clients,
she would always say, bring them home. Let's just not
go out to a restaurant. Bring them home and I
will cook, which is what she did. She was a
fabulous cook, a great entertainer. She was a school teacher,
(07:20):
and you know, her father had a PhD from Harvard,
so she read a lot. She was into, you know,
current events, so she could have very substantive conversations with
my father's clients. And so they enjoyed coming to the
house and meeting with her, so she was she was
(07:42):
building relationships then with some of the clients, but didn't
know she'd ever have to use it. But as far
as the actual office, but my father, she'll tell you
she only knew the telephone number to the office. She
was not about to go into the office and do
anything until all of this occurred. And when my father
(08:06):
became ill, you know, she decided, listen, I'm gonna hold
on to this company in case one of my kids
are interested. Mind you, my twin sister and I were
just graduated with engineering degrees from Howard University, and my
older sister had an architectural engineering degree, so we were trained,
(08:29):
but the timing wasn't right. We weren't ready to step
in and take over a business. So my mother decided
that's exactly what she was going to do. And you know,
we feel that her master's in psychology really helped her
deal with the manias and phobias of people that just
(08:50):
couldn't understand that a woman could run a business. Because
in those times, all of her friends they were like teachers, libras,
you know, they they weren't lawyers and doctors. And this
was not that long ago.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
This was in the eighties, right, late eighties, mid eighties.
But your mom was also deeply educated, you know, she
really was like one of those women who were they
were part of that generation where it was like get
your education, get your eduction. You know, she was very educated,
came from a very you know, polished and well known family,
right and at the same time that that generation, like
(09:30):
you were, you were brought up to be intelligent and
to be highly educated, but then expected to sort of
like put it to the side a little bit like
underemploy yourself.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
Yes, yes, And then.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
At the same time, what an amazing how did she
like how brave and how courageous to say I'm gonna
take this entire company and hold on to it for
my girls, when I don't think anyone would have looked
at her sideways had she decided to sell or to
have someone else take it over. Was it something that
your father and her talked about the importance of that
(10:03):
legacy and how they wanted to keep Machisic and Mchisic
in the family. Was the lore if that's something they
all grew up hearing and understanding.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
Not at all. I don't think, you know, they this
was a shock to them when my father became ill.
And I don't think there was any planning around succession.
This is something that my mother decided to do. And
you're right, many people, other architectural owners came to her
(10:34):
and said, let me buy your business. You know, you're
a woman, you're not an architect, you're not engineered. You're
not going to be able to handle this. But she persevered.
And also remember during that time, women could not borrow money. Jesus,
a time when only men could borrow.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
I barely have a credit card at that point, right,
you know that didn't happen until nineteen ninety with the
Women's Business Act passed in Congress that you know, you
know that said you can't discriminate against women.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
Banks could not discriminate against women. So she was able
to build relationships. I mean, she understood right away the
most important thing was revenue, bringing in new clients and
new projects, and that's what she did. She was very
hard worker. You know, there there were no ubers, there
(11:33):
were he weren't no trains and things in the South.
She's in that kindillact though. I guess she jumping.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
County lines with the cops chasing her. I live for
those anecdotes in the body Live that's her.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
That is her, very strong and very determined. You know.
She she just didn't play. She was my idol, my hero.
She taught me a lot about business development in her
own simple way. You know, I'll never forget weld walk
in the campus of Tuscangee University. Actually it was an
(12:14):
opening of a building that she had just finished designing
and constructing, and the president says to her, you know what,
mister Kissick, I told you I needed operable windows in
this building, and you have built this entire building. Were
not one operable building. We're gonna suffocate. This is Tuskegee, Alabama.
(12:36):
Oh no operable windows. Yeah, so the windows couldn't open.
The windows.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Okay, I didn't know that was a future. One had
to ask for it.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
So Mom said, Mom said, oh, you know, you are
absolutely right, and it's our mistake. We're going to take
out every single woman window and replace it with aquable
windows because some people used you know, air conditioned, so
(13:06):
sometimes they didn't want the windows to open. And so
he was like very happy that, you know, she had
taken this this powerful leadership move to correct the situation.
So now we leave that structure and we're walking on
the campus and she says, aren't you looking for a
(13:28):
new residence. Don't you need somewhere new to stay. It's
like yes. So Mom pointed to this old, dilapidated building
and said, I see you living there. I think we
should renovate that building. And we're gonna call in great columns.
And he said, are you crazy? We have lot of
equipment in that building. You know, we're storing crap. No
(13:50):
one's been in that building. My mother convinced him to
see it differently, and he commissioned her to design this
new presidential residence and how it break out. So in
one day she was able to fix a problem, but
(14:11):
then get another project. And I look at her, you know,
and think about you know, what was she thinking? How
did she know to do that? No one had taught
her that. It was just in eight that she was
able to, you know, understand how to how to endear people.
Speaker 1 (14:35):
M Can you talk about your mother and father's relationship.
She must have really loved and respected him and paid
she was paying attention all those years. She was so
deeply involved with like you know, like you said, hosting
his clients and things like that, did you grow up
kind of seeing your parents have a deep connection and
(14:55):
like do you think that was partly why she was
so devoted to the business after he you know fell ill.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
Yes, you know, you're absolutely right. She did admire him
and you know his creative ability. You know, he would
sit at the dinner table and sketch out the documents
just in just whyle he's talking. And I think she
really enjoyed that. And then you know he told her
(15:24):
early on, instead of going out and buying a beautiful
Houston dress but all of your friends, he said, I
want you to spend our money and invest in black art.
So she found a true passion in investing in black
art and she really made that her mission and she
(15:49):
enjoyed it. But he is the one who started that.
Now she still would go get a nice dress, but
he definitely spent a lot.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
Of money on art, and you know that that that
created the same passion in myself and my two sisters.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
But their relationship was was very special. I mean they
understood each other. My father was a very eclectic person.
You know, he didn't care how he looked he didn't
care about his clothes and things like that, and you know,
she would dress up and let him do whatever he
(16:30):
wanted to do, if he wanted to put on jeans.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Yeah. I love that dichotomy because he was i mean,
now apart from being a part of this like legacy
construction business and being very successful at Nashville. But she
was the more like polished in prim and like. But
she let him be himself, and he, you know, seemed
to have let her be herself.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
Yeah, that's such a great opposite the tract.
Speaker 2 (16:54):
Right, that's true.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
That's true.
Speaker 2 (16:57):
And then they were connected and in step when it
came to raising us.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
I was going to get because you cuties the division
of the twin sisters and y'all going on Saturdays with
Daddy to the construction sites. I thought that was so adorable. Yeah,
talk to me about about Darryl also, Cheryl and Darryl
is so funny.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
And my grandmother did that. My mother said, you know,
they told my father she was having twins, but told
him not to tell her. Wait what, Yes, so she
didn't know she was having twins. No, what? No? And
(17:40):
so I was born first, and then you know, they
gave her anesthesia when they began to see my twin
sister's head come out, so she woke up. She had
two daughters, two twins, and my grandmother had named those
Cyril and Daryl.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Okay, now that was different times.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
It's totally different times.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
We're a very different would been like you named my daughters.
What we're just going to x that out right also,
but your dad was so excited to have twin girls.
You write, yes, and at that point you also toward
the end of the book where we're talking more about
legacy and you now have two daughters, and you get
into how it was a very like male dominated, you know,
(18:25):
ownership of the machistic and mechistic up until that point.
Did that start to shift when you and Cheryl and
Daryl were born and came into the picture, and you know,
there just seemed to be more more women, women being
born into the family. And it seems like your dad
really fostered and encouraged your love of business, design architecture
from a young age.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Yeah, I think, you know, he just leaned into it
as opposed to his grandfather, Moldas mckins the second, who
had seven girls first and then seven boys, and each
time they had a girl, they wanted a boy. So
(19:07):
when the first boy came and that was Moses Mciusic,
the ID, they gave him all the names of the
boys they wanted to have. So his name is Moses Edward.
John Henry Lewis my God. So, you know, back in
(19:29):
that time, having a mail was important. I think that
by the time my father came along, and you know,
he had twins and he had my oldest sister, he
leaned into the fact that this is just what it's
going to be, and now how do I get my
girls involved in my business? And that's why he would
(19:54):
take us to the office. That's why he would give
us some new Ward lettering sets. He would give us,
you know, trains. You know, we really didn't get dolls.
Maybe we had one or two, but for the most part,
we were given all these other gifts that you would
normally give a guy.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Yeah, so he's he understood what he needed to do
to get us to get on the path that he
wanted us to be on, like going to Howard University.
He would tell us all the time, you can go
to any school you want to, but the only school
I'm paying for is Howard University. Okay, that's easy enough,
(20:38):
easy enough, easy enough, right, and you're gonna study architecture
and engineering.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Yeah, and you're And you and Daryl didn't seem to
resist that. That's such a you really embraced it. You like,
And I'm a mom. I have young boys. I have
a five year old and a two year old, and
I think about I don't want to put too much
pressure on what they'd decide to do. It's very much
like okay, firefighter one day, engineer the next, astronaut or whatever.
But you you at the same time like, ooh, I'm
(21:08):
very big into reading right now. I love the part
where you said your mom would give y'all extra homework
after you Like, I'm very very that mom. He's had
a whole work book this summer, but at this and
I want him to foster a love of reading and writing.
But any any insight into like how do you strike
that balance to where like you're not feeling like the
(21:30):
kids are not resisting. Now you had your rebellious streak.
We're going to talk about that. We love it. We
love a bad girl, but no bad girl. But you
still did your school work. You got A's you went
to Howard you you know, you you did follow in
your in your family's footsteps in that way.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
You know, it was a different day. It's totally different day.
And we were raised by our parents, you know, our
parents and their little enclave of friends where that's who
we saw and that's who made an impression on us,
you know. So there were doctors, there were lawyers, there
were educators, and so we were the only family that
(22:12):
was really in design and construction. And so my twin
sister and I were always very good well when it
came to math. Everything in stem we excelled in. So
it was kind of natural for us. There weren't as
(22:33):
many choices. I remember when my oldest daughter went to
George Washington and she had to choose, you know, what
she wanted to major in, and it was like two
hundred and some are choice, you know, and I'm thinking
to myself, this is ridiculous. You know, back then, we
(22:55):
only had three TV stations, you know, we broke so
we weren't getting a lot of information outside of the
reality of who we are and you know, what our
community stood for, and so we were really being raised
by our parents. I don't think our kids are being
(23:17):
raised by us completely. I think they're having so much
inside out influence that it is affecting, you know, what
we say and what we do. Back then, we whatever
our parents told us to do is what we did. Okay,
So once.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
It was like don't bring don't bring any friends over
while we're at dinner. Everyone listening to that. Well, I
love the I can see. You know, originally when you
said you were thinking about doing a sitcom, I'm like, sitcom?
Is this really giving sitcom? And I'm like, oh, but
if they were doing the young cheryln Darryl years, yes,
I think since sitcom.
Speaker 2 (23:57):
Would yes, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
I mean you were really like the Huxtables. You were
living Huxtables, you know, in a way we were. We
were just not on the screen obviously. And oh okay,
I want to bring it back to your career trajectory,
and like you said, you know, you're so you're having
this huge life shift. You're you know, having to say
(24:23):
goodbye to the first the version of your father who
you knew after he has a stroke, and then how
long was it before he passed away? After he had
his initials?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
She recovered right, right, So that was nineteen eighty three
when he had this stroke and he passed in nineteen
eighty seven, so five years later. And at that point,
you're you moved to New York City, right, Well, I
start my masters at Howard University. So I'm still in
(24:53):
DC for the next two and a half three years.
And you know, my my father, as a result of stroke,
could not speak. He lost feeling in the left side
of his body, and you know, so he could walk,
but he had a limp. And so he came to
(25:16):
visit me that summer and we did a lot of
speech therapy. That's right.
Speaker 1 (25:21):
You really were like you gave your mom a break?
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Was my mom a break?
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Wonderful?
Speaker 2 (25:29):
And so you know, I was in grad school working
on my thesis. In grad school was a lot of work.
Uh so, concentrating on that while my mom was still
running the business. Was she she was all alone. She
(25:51):
was by herself. And that's when she also sued the
city of Nashville over airport contract and she was blackballed
for several years from getting you know, new contracts in
the city. And so you know, it was a difficult
(26:15):
time and she was taking care of my father, hm,
but he lived long enough for UH to walk me
down the aisle for my first my first wedding.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
I mean, you have to talk about that man who
called your what did he call your father's your family business,
I don't want to repeat.
Speaker 2 (26:34):
It, a nigga business. How are you able to laugh
at that?
Speaker 1 (26:39):
I was mad? I'm like, how quickly do we get
rid of him in this book? Like come on the jealousy? Well, no,
that's an interesting I want to talk about that early
career because at that point, you so you've graduated from Howard,
you've completed your I know you had a rough go
of it doing your your thesis right in grad school
or was that?
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah? It was very rough, Yes, very rough. Understand.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
I mean you also were like caretaking and you know,
a lot going on. So but you're you're feeling that
pull to move, like many young black professionals in like
the early nineties, to go to the big city work
for a big white you know PW I like, work
for these firms that are like impressive, right, but you're
in this rare situation where you actually have, you know,
(27:26):
a family firm, a respectable one that you could be
working for. But can you talk about kind of answering
that call to to move to New York and work
for another big firm instead of working for the family business.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
Yeah, there was a period of tower where I just
knew I could not go back to the family business.
You know, when I went to Howard, I feel like
I escaped Nashville. Nashville was not the cool spot that
it is right now. You know, it probably had three
hundred thousand people, but it just it wasn't what I wanted.
(27:58):
I wanted, you know, the hustle and bustle, and you
know the opportunity that presents itself in New York City.
You know, our parents used to take us to New
York when we were growing up, and my desire was
to have my professional career in New York and so
I knew that. So when I graduated finally with my
(28:21):
master's debris, the only place that I began to look
for a job was in New York City. I could not.
I felt like I needed to get experience outside of
the family firm to be able to possibly consider coming
back to the family firm. I didn't even think at
(28:42):
that point I would ever go back to the family firm.
But of course, you know what happened, Well, were your parents.
Speaker 1 (28:51):
I mean at that point, your father is ill, but yeah,
they didn't like try to. I know your mom eventually
got her close in and brought you back, right, that's
what happened. But before that, they were letting you fly free.
It's it seems like.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
She was letting me fly free. And I would have
stayed in New York if she hadn't called my boss
that day and told my boss that I quit. And
then she called me and told me that I quit,
and I was just shumped.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Okay, So the patterns repeating itself because the way that
her mom named her children for her, well, that's they're
quitting your job for you.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
And then it repeats itself again when I tell her
you're retiring today.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Ah see, you are like little pac men, just like
you know, like your time is up. I mean, game
recognizes game. I guess there's like that level of respect.
Like Okay, well if they're saying and my daughter is
saying and my mother is saying it, but she doesn't
mean she basically at that point is that your father
(29:52):
has passed at this point and she's overwhelmed and she's like,
I need you. You have to come back and work
for us. Right, but even then, you, I mean you
were How did you decide I'm going to stay in
the city half the week and then fly to Nashville
the other half. That's a pretty brutal commute and schedule
to maintain for two years.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Right, So I you know, I just said to my mom, listen,
I just gotten married. I'm really a newly wit. I
have gotten home with my husband. But I can come
and work with you during the week and then on Fridays.
I would work out of the New York office when
when we did not have anything remote.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
Okay, which you set up that New York office? You
incorporated yep? In Manhattan?
Speaker 2 (30:36):
Right? Yes? Yes, and literally in a four floor walk
up on fifty seventh Street. I mean startup. It was
a startup. Yes, my guys get to.
Speaker 1 (30:51):
Start in their parents' garage.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
I feel for walk up. It's very respectable. I remember
when I got my first certification and they had to
come to a site visit, and I told him can
you come around noon, because then I could have all
my friends come to my office that act like they're
working during lunchtime. Wait.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
I did work for a startup where all the photos
on the company website. None of those people worked there.
They were just friends that they brought. I'm like, where
are these people at It was just me, It was
just you. You were scrappy like that. So you're starting
and at that point michistic and mechistic. Like it's very
well known in the South, right, Like you guys were
building billions at at Tuskegee University and in Alabama.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
Yes, it was a lot. You had a big.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Presence in Nashville, very respectable. But starting up this this
this branch in New York, in Manhattan, in the real
estate capital of the world, at least of America. God,
during the Trump Hey days, like that must have been.
That must have been, Well, you tell me what it
must have been like.
Speaker 2 (32:00):
Well, I was very determined and I had a strategy,
and so I just made myself stick to it. I
knew I needed to identify the agencies in New York
City that had the most capital dollars, and that's what
I needed to pursue. And this was in the infancy
(32:21):
of minority women own business programs, and so those programs
a loted I would say back then, like eight percent
of a project would go to minority women owned businesses.
You know, today it's like over thirty between thirty and
fifty percent that go to minority businesses, but when it
(32:44):
first started, it was only like eight percent. So I
felt like, you know, well, that's good because that gives
me an opportunity to be a subcontractor to larger companies
that provided the exact same services. But they could show
me the ropes, show me how to build in New
York because New York is a complicated place. You know,
(33:05):
you have to get building permits. You're working with unions
and non union people, community people, and you know where
the three meet is not beautiful. Yeah, you know, you're
you're dealing with the m t A, the f t A,
(33:26):
you're all the agencies when you are constructing a building
that you have to interface with DP just getting trash
off the site. I mean, it's a complicated thing that
I was grateful that a lot of my strategic alliances
were able to help me with that. But it's true
(33:49):
when I when I would go in to pitch the business,
I would tell people all this repertoire of business that
mckisick had done, and people would look at me with
straight face and safe. But none of it's in New York,
so we don't care what you did in Nashville or
Memphis or in Alabama. You don't have any New York experience,
(34:13):
so you're starting from scratch. And I would say, well,
not really, I do understand how to build. Maybe I
haven't done it here in New York, but I think,
you know, I offer probably the best scenario for you
to get your MWBE requirements met with an established company.
(34:37):
You know, I think the main thing is being able
to have capital in this business. And when I first started,
I really didn't have a lot of capital. But I
had friends who worked on Wall Street who did have,
you know, some money, And so when I had to
(34:58):
make my first payroll and I had no cash, I
went to them, and I mean it was It's a
great story of black solidarity being able to go to
five friends, maybe with six, and they each gave me
five thousand dollars.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
You were trying to hire one architect or project manager
or someone you needed to get your first big job done.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I need to get my first big job done. And
you know how that is. You have to you put
in your invoice after you worked for thirty days right,
and then you know, it goes back and forth, it
has to be corrected, then it has to go through
a government tape red tape system for them to actually
(35:48):
release a payment. So that cycle could take anywhere from
three to six months before you get your first check, right, and.
Speaker 1 (35:59):
So you're trying to pay them before all that stuff
has had like before all the.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
Right, but you have to make your payroll every two weeks.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
Got it? Okay? Yeah, it sounds highly stressful.
Speaker 2 (36:10):
So that's what I needed funding for. And my friends
on Wall Street did that for me.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
Hey ba, fam, we got to take a quick break,
pay some bills and we'll be right back. You mentioned alliances.
You mentioned relationships. That is such a recurring theme throughout
the book and in my work, I do a lot
of coaching around negotiation, salary negotiation, compensation package negotiation, negotiation.
(36:37):
And I know they're so sick of me talking about
how important relationships are just to your you know, your
overall earning's ability and your ability to negotiate from a strong,
you know, place of leverage. And I was excited to
see how much in your book relationship building was a
strategy forget about blueprints and permits, and all that you
(36:59):
were like really working hard to build your network in
New York. Can you talk to me about how you
went about doing that and and like any advice you
have for our listeners who are struggling with that part
building a name for themselves.
Speaker 2 (37:14):
Yeah, building uh relationships is extremely important and I think
it's important to build them even before you need them.
That part, yeah, and and and all of that goes
into building your name. You know, my grandparents lived off
(37:37):
of the four piece, which was for perseverance, persistence, with parentness,
and purpose. And then I would always add the fifth P,
which is prayer.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Okay, prayer. I was thinking people profit prayer, Okay, very
good prayer.
Speaker 2 (37:58):
You know, going out and two events every evening after
working all day is not easy, but it's something that
you have to do because you don't know who that
one person you're gonna meet at an event of five
hundred people that's going to help you and take you
(38:18):
to the next level. But I can say that every
time there's been a change or an elevation in mciswick,
it's all come through people. It's come through that one
or two people that I met somewhere who wanted to
give me an opportunity and help me in some way,
(38:41):
and so I think that is extremely important. I think
the other thing that builds your name is integrity, and
that is, you know, underpromising and over delivering. You have
to be We had to be on budget. We had
to complete our projects on time, no matter what, to
(39:02):
working around the clock, making sure that everything you submit
is excellent. All of these things actually matter in the
scheme of things. Because we're reading my book, there are
people who try to cut corners.
Speaker 1 (39:21):
Yeah, the body count in your book is Quieigh. You
tell a story about one person and it's like, well,
they were found victed, they were found.
Speaker 2 (39:29):
Corrupt, are in jail. Anyway, I'm just moving along right,
and so the cream does rise to the top. But
you have to always do the right thing. You have
to always think about, Okay, I'm receiving a million dollar
(39:49):
payment and only one hundred thousand is really mine. The
rest is for subcontractors, and they need to be paid immediately.
And so we make sure we pay our subcontractors as
fast as we can, even if we have to advance them,
because we're only as good as they are, you know,
(40:11):
we have to rely to them on them to come
to the job to actually build things, and so it's
important I think that you know relationships. I agree with you, okay,
one hund.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
And you also had that incredible training growing up being
a kid at the dinner table among all the grown ups,
being a kid at those like these amazing lake these
like lakeside late night parties you would talk about and
like that your family would have. You'd all be together,
mixed mixed ages and stuff. And I think like you
developed probably such a fluency and human like relationships and communication,
(40:52):
you know, And then by the time you were in
that position to lead at Mechissic and Meckissic, I can
see how you had that. Did you feel like, Okay,
this is like all these years of having like the
gift of gad and watching my parents interact with their
clients their friends, Like, that's such a skill set that
it's hard to teach. Like when you know, if you
(41:14):
just keep your head down in your books and you're
focused on your work, it's really hard to teach that
secret sauce of human relationship building. Can you see how
that was like building for you at from a young age?
Speaker 2 (41:26):
You know, yes, I think, but all of a sudden
one day, it's like a wave comes over you and
you're like everything's coming together all at once, and you
can't believe it. You're like, I'm comfortable with who I am.
I'm comfortable with what I'm saying and what I represent
(41:49):
other people. You know, I don't have any fear of
other people and what they think about me. I don't
have a problem being the only woman, are the only
black woman in the room. I know that I have
something to contribute, but it comes over time. You know.
(42:12):
I'll never forget my second husband, after like fifteen sixteen
years of running my business in New York City, he
goes to an event with me, and I was so
used to running up people. Hi, my name is Cheryl
mckiss it, and here's what my company does. And you know, what,
what do you do? You know, I'm running up to everybody.
(42:33):
And he finally says, Cheryl, I think everybody knows. You
don't think you have to run up to them anymore.
Just try it, And I'm like, Okay, I'm never bringing
him to another event again.
Speaker 1 (42:49):
That's why he was number two. We had to get
through some riff raff. Cheryl, where are you finding these men?
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Well, he was right. The next event I went to,
I did not run up to anybody, and people did
make their way to me, because you know it is
it can be a little uncomfortable in the beginning when
you're the only black woman and you see five hundred
(43:17):
suits of those men, white men, and so what do
you do? They know each other, they're speaking to each other.
So how do you get yourself to be relevant in
the room. And the way I did it is I
would go up and just say hello, but I'd have
to talk myself into it. Cheryl, you aren't going to
(43:41):
go over and say hello right now to somebody, and
I would force it, and I did that for years.
Speaker 1 (43:51):
I love that anecdote in the book because this is
a strategy that I use. I'm very introverted. I have
social anxiety. What I love showing I know, I know,
And I love showing up early because it's quiet. You
can get a feel of the room. I want to
know where my exits are, where's the bathroom, where is
everything going to be set up? And then it's easier
to strike up a conversation when it's just a few people.
(44:12):
But then in this one party you go to, you
get a tap on the shoulder and it's Michael Bloomberg,
who's just like hey, And that strategy really benefits you,
you know, I wonder, you know, and I don't know.
I'm not in a I'm not a CEO of a
major construction firm. Going to these I have such a privilege.
I get to talk to people who look like us
(44:32):
every day. It's the best. I'm spoiled for it. My
tolerance for white men talking nonsense to me is very
low now it's dangerously low. But so being in those spaces,
you know, you talk about like having to build up
that confidence in yourself and who you are and what
(44:54):
you have to offer. But can we talk about as
you're collecting or building these relationships with with white men,
you know, prominent white men in your field, to start
to who maybe doubt you in the beginning and you
kind of have to work over that hope with them
and not take it too personally. Can you talk about then,
like the meaningful mentorship that you were able to get
(45:16):
out of, like investing in these relationships and kind of
proving yourself.
Speaker 2 (45:20):
Yeah, I mean, so the you know, what's interesting is
the very organization that I said I went to and
there were five hundred suits. It was the New York
Building Congress. And you know, I used to think I
am never going to make it anywhere in this organization
(45:40):
because I just don't fit in that same organization. Now
I am interviewing to be chair of well thirty years later, wow, okay.
And so I have had six or seven interviews with men,
(46:04):
all white men that I have built relationships with over
the last thirty years, and the response was just so
overwhelmingly positive. And you know, one of them even said
to me, well, I don't know why we didn't do
this a long time ago. So you know, there becomes
(46:26):
there comes a time where you developed that mutual respect
and I think that's you know, what I was able
to do with a lot of my peers, and it's
a very good it's a very good feeling to know
that they see me in that light and that over
(46:47):
the years, you know, we may have had our run ins.
You know, I may have had to have my black
girl moment to get somebody straight okay now, but it
ended up opening up their eyes, showing them their blind spots,
and changing them in a sense.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Hey, ba fam, We're going to take a quick break
pay some bills and we'll be right back. I would
love nothing more for them to be a black female
chair of an organization like that. In twenty twenty five,
you know, you talk about the importance of that designation
Minority and Women Owned Business an Enterprise WMBE in New York.
(47:32):
You know, even when I was launching Brown Ambition and
then my coaching practice, I went through the application process
for MWBE and at the time I didn't know it
was well maybe it wasn't at the time, but certainly
since Trump has had his second term, you see this
like shifting energy toward programs like that and now DEI
of it all. Obviously they're trying to dismantle every diversity
(47:55):
you know, and inclusion organization and program. Can you talk
a little bit about how is it for you having
benefited from this program also having witnessed the abuse of
this program. You talk about the number of companies that
were pretending to have a whim, a woman or a
minority you know, leader at the top to take advantage
of this program. But how do we prevent programs like
(48:19):
this from going away? Like what can we do? Will
this chair position give you a little bit more power?
In the room to stop that so that more women
in minority owned businesses, you know, are able to access
opportunities to stick around.
Speaker 2 (48:36):
So I don't believe these programs are going to go
away because it's so much needed, and I think there
are more people that want these programs then don't want them.
I just think we have an administration that is trying
to impose their will on the minority because the majority
(48:58):
of people, I think understand why we need diversity, and
they want diversity, and it just so happens that in
New York we're encapsulated here and our programs are probably
going to stay intact because there are state and city programs.
(49:24):
I have to say, I'm a little bit concerned. We
expanded our company to Orlando, Florida, probably about three or
four years ago, and we were certified as a minority
woman owned business. They are the Airport of Florida is
(49:46):
trying to get a grant from the federal government for
their capital program and they were told if they have
a DEI program, they would not be able to get
the funds, and so Florida suspended their MWBE program just
(50:08):
like that. Just like that, and Orlando, which is you know,
a blue city. You know, they're they're clear that they
don't want to get rid of it, but they need
the money. So, you know, I look at New York
and I look at New York City and state and
(50:29):
how much money we get from the federal government, and
so that concerns me. You know, we we have we
generate our own. Our our state budget is two hundred
and fifty one billion.
Speaker 4 (50:46):
Okay, we schederate a lot of money on our own,
but we still rely on the federal government for our
transportation systems, you know, for the Gateway project, which is a.
Speaker 2 (51:02):
Tunnel between New York and Jersey. It's just so many
things are airports, and so we'll see what happens. You know,
I feel like people are just trying to hold on,
hold on to a remnant of what's it's been like
(51:23):
to try and get through this administration.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
It's been a long year.
Speaker 2 (51:28):
I know, what's happening once is what makes you fearful
of what could happen over the next. Yeah, three months.
Speaker 1 (51:38):
You're in the position where you have you have Claude
and worked your way so hard for so long to
establish Meckisic and Machissic to like be in a stable place.
You talk about and thank you also for your transparency.
You know, you're talking about your you know, stressing about
that call from your banker and like having to get
lines of credit and dealing with like the financial stressors
(52:01):
of running this corporation. But you also talk about you know,
you're you're in a position where you're feeling more stable,
you're looking toward growth and diversifying the business even further.
Do you feel a little bit inoculated from what's happening
like that, for example, in Florida with them doing away
with that program, or is machisic and machistic going to
be okay?
Speaker 2 (52:22):
I think we're gonna be okay. Yes, you know what
if people really want to do D E and on,
they're they're gonna shift and call it something else. You know,
they're still going to do it. And there's plenty of
people out there. Yeah, as far as New York, which
(52:46):
is our you know, our home, our foundation, our this
is everything, our corporate headquarters. Like I said, we haven't
seen it yet. We haven't seen it. I don't know
what's going to happen here. But I can say that
our projects are so long term, so let's take JFK
(53:09):
Terminal one. We've been on that product. They need it. Honey.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
I'm so glad to hear something's happening. It's hard to
say I agree with Trump on something, but it is giving.
Speaker 2 (53:19):
Yeah, well it's getting better at We got to first
phase in twenty twenty six, and then Phase B will
go on till I think twenty twenty nine, and so
our projects are so long term that I feel that
we will be okay under this administration.
Speaker 1 (53:40):
This might be a weird pivot, but I've been dying
to ask you. I'm I think all the girls are
obsessed with the Gilded Age right now? Have you watched
or are you a fan?
Speaker 2 (53:49):
I love it? Do you? Yes? You know they just hadn't.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
I'm only on season two. But you know Peggy Scott,
the black journalist character played by the Dinner, You know,
she goes to Tuskegee University and I think she's covering
the opening of their dormitory. And I just thought Mackissic
and Mackissic was there, like.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
I was waiting. I was like, is there a machistic?
Speaker 1 (54:13):
Is there a character? Is there going to be portrayed?
Is there a Moses somewhere.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
Well, if Chan, my pr consultant is here, is she
she would love for me to have a cameo. Oh
would you put the coursing on? Come on now with
that busto?
Speaker 1 (54:27):
Do a cameo with the booty bump, the booty whatever
they put in their dress.
Speaker 2 (54:31):
Oh god, that was terrible. I hate those things. Yeah.
I think that show was very different, and the women
have prominence in the show, so I really like it.
Speaker 1 (54:44):
I thought about you too also when they reveal the
engineer behind the Brooklyn Bridge as a woman.
Speaker 2 (54:49):
Oh yes, yeah, And I.
Speaker 1 (54:51):
Was like, wait is that true. I'm like, learn of
my histories. But yeah, it's good to know. Okay, you're
also a fan.
Speaker 2 (54:57):
I was like, I'm at AIG fan. It feels like there's.
Speaker 1 (55:00):
Mechistic and mechistic angle here, Like you know, maybe maybe
maybe HBO will give you a call. All right now,
I'd be remiss if I didn't talk about like this this.
You know, the past ten years or so with you know,
you've had some you've run into some health scare as well.
I don't know how long ago it was that you
(55:22):
had a stroke in the middle of your very busy
work day. How are you doing today and how are
you taking care of yourself?
Speaker 2 (55:31):
Well, very good question. So you know, they never really
could tell me what caused my stroke. It was a
shower of clots to the brain, but it was assumed
it came from my bicuspic bow in my heart, which
over time continued to calcify, especially during COVID and so
(55:56):
on February twenty fifth, I had open heart surgery to
yes to replace that vow and repair my order which
had turned into a order aneurysm.
Speaker 1 (56:09):
Bored. Okay, so is this the cracker my dad had
open heart surgery?
Speaker 2 (56:13):
Is at the full?
Speaker 1 (56:15):
Oh that's a rough recovery.
Speaker 2 (56:18):
Well, you know, it wasn't as bad as I thought
it was going to be. You know, I was at
the hospital in five days and the technology, I think
is just superb. And you know, I was back to
working out with my trainer probably three months later. So
(56:40):
my recovery was was you know, it wasn't great, but
it wasn't bad mm hmm.
Speaker 1 (56:48):
And it was something that you knew was going to
eventually going to have to happen.
Speaker 2 (56:52):
Yes, I knew it was eventually going to have to happen.
And you know, now my doctor says, I'm repaired for life.
So I'm happy about that. Bless Yeah.
Speaker 1 (57:03):
And do you think you're seeing what your dad went through?
Did that because you knew immediately, like the symptoms you
were feeling, you had really high blood pressure that day,
you were even at your doctor's office.
Speaker 2 (57:13):
That went to that same day and that morning blood.
Speaker 1 (57:17):
Pressure is a little high. Leave fine. You know you're
you're being whisked from event to event in the city
and all of a sudden your arm goes limp. Yes,
thank god that you knew what was that based on
what you experienced with your dad or just like your
own knowledge. How you know your husband at that time,
he's a he's a doctor.
Speaker 2 (57:39):
But my husband always said, you know, watch the watch
out for this if this happens, you know, with respect
to your mother, never thinking it was me. Oh yeah.
And so when it happened to me, I'm like, oh
my god, I'm having a stroke. And I called him
(58:00):
and he said, stop playing, Like why I am having
a stroke. Are you sure you weren't just leaning on
your arm? Oh come on now, I am on my
way to emergency room.
Speaker 1 (58:16):
I'm so amazed that you just stuck with it too,
because you know, it's not uncommon for women to experience
these symptoms and then to discount them or ignore them
or just say, oh, it's just whatever, and then you
end up hearing these horrible stories of how they pass
away or you know, or worse.
Speaker 2 (58:32):
Right, and they lingering symptoms from from the stroke. But
because I got to the hospital so fast, ten or
fifteen minutes, you know, they were able to give me
the TPA that dissolves all plots. They have to do that,
I think within the first hour or two were to
(58:55):
be effective. And then you know, all the feeling came
back in my arm and I had one hundred percent recovery. Incredible, incredible.
Speaker 1 (59:09):
I'm glad that's that's your mama's jeans pulling through.
Speaker 2 (59:12):
And I know, and I think I talked about my neurologist,
another blood.
Speaker 1 (59:19):
The woman, Yes, tell me about her a fabulous.
Speaker 2 (59:26):
So she was on the phone with her intern when
I was in the emergency room and my blood pressure
was extremely high, and so they had to get my
blood pressure down before they give you the TPA because
your vessels, your blood vessels could actually burst from from
the pressure, and so mine was just borderline. And my
(59:50):
husband looked at me. He's like, yeah, you gotta do it.
But Carol and Brocketon. Brockington was on the phone, and
you know, she was telling this intern stuff by step
and I'm like, well, whoever he's talking to, she knows
exactly what she's talking about. I had no idea was
a black woman. I'm thinking, I didn't even know it
(01:00:11):
was a woman. All I knew is the doctor on
the other end of his of the phone was sharp
and on top of everything. So when I came to
a couple of days later and she came to visit
in walks this fly fly woman. I mean she is
(01:00:32):
dressed to the nines. She has lace gloves on, black
lace gloves on with her rings old top.
Speaker 1 (01:00:42):
I was like, what in the Gray's Anatomy is this character?
Speaker 2 (01:00:45):
And I'm like, it's somebody coming to visit me, and
that's my doctor. I just love her anything, you know.
Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
You sell your doctor today, y'all have check ups or
anything like that or just.
Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
Yet, No, not anymore, not anymore. But recently I heard
someone who you know, had say who had a stroke
who ended up in her care and I'm like, well,
I know they're doing okay.
Speaker 1 (01:01:11):
Yes, I always love those encounters. Yeah, you know, the
whole word minority. I'm really I've been like, I'm tired
of the word minority. I want us to be called rare.
We're just like rare gems flirting out here. When you
come across a rare diamond, you don't call it a
minority diamond, right, It's a rare diamond, you know, right,
You're right, You're right. And that's why I was really
towards the end of the book. You know, you're talking
(01:01:33):
about your legacy now and mentoring young people, and you've
been visiting your alma mater. But to sort of wrap
this conversation up, what would you like to say to
the next generation coming up? You know, unfortunately not all
of us come from fifth generation legacy businesses and the
(01:01:53):
way that you do. We may be looking to build
our own.
Speaker 2 (01:01:55):
Though, absolutely, Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (01:01:59):
Yeah, Any like parting words or advice.
Speaker 2 (01:02:01):
Yeah, I mean I would say everybody has a legacy
and you can create your own. If you don't know,
everyone should do a family tree, even if it starts
with just you and your parents. I would assume you
know your parents, but maybe you don't, but you'll know
your children. Yeah, And pass it down because there's something
(01:02:26):
to be said about knowing where you came from. And
if you start with the information you do know, over
time you'll start feeling out the information that you don't know.
And so I think that's a major takeaway from from
this book that that's what got me excited around them.
(01:02:49):
Macisic story, and that is my grandmother had a family tree,
and I took that family tree and I filled it
out with my generation and the generation after me.
Speaker 1 (01:03:05):
Oh amazing. So where does that live? Is it literally
just like a picture?
Speaker 2 (01:03:08):
I'm like, you know, well, yeah, I have lost it
several times. I have it again.
Speaker 1 (01:03:14):
I mean, and then you say, moment for the artwork
in the book, because you have some really if you're
watching on YouTube. I loved getting the surprise of like
seeing these full colored paintings and portrayals of your family.
So these were are these paintings of photographs that you
guys commissioned?
Speaker 2 (01:03:29):
Yeah, there were photographs that my father had and you know,
he restored the photographs and they painted them.
Speaker 1 (01:03:37):
Oh that's beautiful, What a great gift.
Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
I'm thinking about, what's that that's my father's work? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (01:03:45):
Oh, they're just yeah, I mean they it's it's lovely,
and then you get to sort of like add the
color and add the hues, and I think that's amazing.
That's a great part in gifts. And I think it's
really women. Women in my family too, are the ones
holding the family trees and really caring about that and
caring about the stories. Yes, I'm got me call my
ant Brenda right quick, by the way.
Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
Right and find out this guy is your family.
Speaker 1 (01:04:08):
I know she has it somewhere. She's been working on it.
She's like, somebody please help me with this. But Cheryl
mckissic Daniel, I just want to say thank you for
being so generous with your time, with all the glitches
and all that we got through it. I knew you were.
I'm like, this is a CEO. She is going to
be able to handle this. It's handled. Congratulations on the book.
Everybody go get your copy again. Holding it up here, Well,
(01:04:32):
don't worry.
Speaker 2 (01:04:33):
Listen.
Speaker 1 (01:04:33):
I wish you could see my background right now. I am,
I'm in I'm under construction of my new office, is
what I know. But it's really annoying background. The black
family who built America, the Machissics, two centuries of daring pioneers.
My guest today has been Cheryl McKissick Daniel. Thank you
so so much. Be well and thank you for sharing
your story with us. Thank you, Okay v a fan,
(01:04:56):
Thank you so much for listening to this week's show.
I want to shout out to our production team, Courtney,
our editor, Carla, our fearless leader for idea to launch productions.
I want to shout out my assistant Lauda Escalante and
Cameron McNair for helping me put the show together. It
is not a one person project, as much as I
(01:05:18):
have tried to make it so these past ten years.
I need help, y'all, and thank goodness I've been able
to put this team around me to support me on
this journey and to y'all bea fam I love you.
Speaker 2 (01:05:29):
So so, so so much.
Speaker 1 (01:05:31):
Please rate, review, subscribe, make sure you sign up to
the newsletter to get all the latest updates on upcoming episodes,
our tenth year anniversary celebrations to come, and until next time,
talk to you SOONBA guy
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