October 19, 2025 • 47 mins
This week, Mandi sits down with Amina AlTai — executive coach, entrepreneur, and bestselling author of The Ambition Trap: How to Stop Chasing and Start Living.
Amina’s story takes us from burnout and near organ failure to a full-on breakthrough that reshaped her entire relationship with success. She shares how growing up as the daughter of immigrants shaped her drive, why so many high-achieving women fall into what she calls “painful ambition,” and the five core wounds that often hide beneath our hustle.
Together, Mandi and Amina unpack:
💡 The difference between purposeful vs. painful ambition
💡 How our cultural and family roots influence our drive for success
💡 Why burnout isn’t a badge of honor
💡 How scarcity and comparison feed into “the ambition trap”
💡 Practical steps for finding joy and balance in your work
Amina also opens up about her own health crisis that forced her to redefine ambition on her own terms — and how she now helps leaders, entrepreneurs, and firsts-of-their-kind women of color do the same.
By the end of this episode, you’ll walk away with a new lens on success — one that prioritizes purpose, wellness, and authenticity over constant hustle.
Guest: @aminaaltai
Book: The Ambition Trap — available wherever books are sold
Learn more: aminaaltai.com
Episode Highlights:
- (03:00) Amina’s health scare that changed everything
- (07:45) The five core wounds that fuel burnout
- (15:00) Leaving her business and rediscovering purpose
- (25:00) Coaching the “first, few, and only” women in corporate spaces
- (33:00) Navigating authenticity in today’s workplaces
- (41:30) The truth about scarcity and collaboration
- (46:00) What “The Ambition Trap” really means
If you loved this conversation, share it with a friend who’s redefining success on their own terms — and don’t forget to rate and review Brown Ambition on your favorite podcast app!
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Hey, hey, va fam, Welcome to Brown Ambition. I have
a very special guest today and I just want to
dive right into this conversation. Let me first do a
proper introduction for today's guest. Her name is I'm Gonna Altai.
She's an executive coach in a now best selling and
celebrated author. I'm Gonna has coached Olympians, fortune one hundred
(00:25):
leaders and founders, and shows us in this book. Her
new book, The Ambition Trap, how to reconnect with ambition
that's rooted in purpose instead of exhaustion. In her book
again The Ambition Trap, if you haven't gotten your copy,
I don't know what you're waiting for. It has the
most gorgeous, beautiful what to be calling this like kind
of a sunset tie dye moment kind of cover. I
(00:46):
love the art, I love the colors in this book,
which I'm going to go ahead and say it's like
the anti hustle guide for anyone who's sick of chasing
success and in the process, as a byproduct of that
that that's cess chasing has to meet, we end up
burnt out, feeling unfulfilled, chasing our own tale, which I
can relate to so deeply, so deeply, so deeply, and
(01:09):
I'm so honored to have Amana here today. She's going
to share how her own journey from burnout to breakthrough
created this guide and how she's come up with practical
tools for making ambition a source of joy not stress.
Welcome to Brown Ambition, Omana. I'm so happy to have
you on the show.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Thank you so much for having me. I had my
fan girl moment before we hit record. I have been
a long point listener of the show.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Love your work.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
So happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
So talk to me about the title. When did you
have the title for the book? Was that the title
from the beginning?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
That was the title from the beginning, And I don't
mean to be annoying, but it dropped in on my
meditation cushion. Now, the subtitle was another story. We probably
had like fifty versions of the subtitle, but the.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Title started on subtitles. I know, I'm on, I'm not
about fifty. I think I probably brainstormed about fifty subtitles.
I didn't even give your as any You need to
shine on the subtitle the ambition trap, how to stop
chasing and start living? There you go. That came to
you on the meditation pillow.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
The ambition trap did how to stop chasing and start
living was a little bit of a different process, okay.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
And at the time, was that something that you had
experienced or were as a coach yourself and you know
coaching leaders. Was it just something that you were confronted
with time and time again, like helping people work through
their own version of the ambition trap.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Yes, I actually feel like my whole life was a
bit of a walking ambition trap. So I am the
child of immigrants and I was told to just like
put your head down, work really hard. And I took
a lot of cues from my dad. So my dad
is a brown man named Mohammad, and you know, was
trying to find his place in the world of work.
And I just noticed him struggling so much, and I
(02:51):
just picked up a lot of cues from him. And
I carried a lot of that programming into the workplace,
and you know, it served me until it didn't serve me.
I had this like ice on paper life, and six
years into my marketing career, I burned out and developed
two autoimmune diseases. But it happened in this really dramatic
fashion where I'd started to feel really sick, and I'd
been to seven different doctors, because if you're a person
(03:13):
of color, medical gas lighting is super real. And it
was the seventh doctor who called me on a Friday
while I'm going to work and she says, I'm gonna
if you don't go to the hospital today instead of
going to work, you will be days away from multiple
organ failure. So I had gotten so sick. My relationship
to success and ambition was so dysfunctional that it was
(03:33):
almost taking me out for good. And so that was
the beginning of it. That was the beginning of me
realizing that I needed to renegotiate, reevaluate my relationship to
success and ambition. And then as I became a coach,
I just had a front row seat to all of
these people that were highly ambitious but navigating very similar
traps to me. And then it was really interesting. It
all kind of came to this boiling point. In twenty twenty,
(03:56):
at the head of the Social Justice uprisings, I was
collaborating with this organization called Inspired Justice, where I was
doing social impact empowerment coaching, and I ended up coaching
a handful of celebrity girl bosses who were canceled, and
it was a really interesting experience. My book is not
about cancel culture. That's a whole other thing. But what
I was noticing was these patterns alive in these folks
(04:18):
that had also been alive in my life and had
been alive in my other clients' lives, and I'd seen
in my dad. And I was like, Okay, this is
a conversation that I really need to dig deeper into.
And that's where the ambition framework.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Came from, celebrity girl bosses who had been canceled coaching
them on how to uncancel themselves or basically like where
to take their businesses from there.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Know how to make amends and how to lead differently
and how to show up in the world differently.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Oh man, were they receptive to that? I mean they
must be, they were doing the coaching, but they.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Were receptive to it.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Oh, you're going to take me down a path. I
don't think. Let's focus on the book. I'm just like,
ooh what.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
People hear that and then they want to go down
that path, and you know, it's definitely a path.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Oh man, Okay for another time, that's path for like,
let's get some cocktails, you know, get the kids away,
all right. It's interesting that, you know, I hear what
you're saying about watching your dad. I think in my career,
I'm fine. I'm starting to realize how much of an
influence my own dad had on my relationship to ambition.
(05:20):
He's very much you know, you know, a black man
grew up in the Deep South, and I have a
lot of like complex feelings about him and his in
his career because I do feel like in a lot
of ways he was he underrealized or wasn't able to
like realize his own ambitions for himself. And so when
(05:41):
I approached my career, I sort of looked at it like,
I'm going to do all the things I say I'm
going to do, and I'm going to like fulfill those
ambitions and goals for them for myself. And now that
I'm you know, at this stage, you know, I'm I'm
I've been five years into entrepreneurship kind of full time,
and sometimes I have I now, I'm finding this fear
(06:02):
that I'm going to end up like that as well,
that it won't like I won't get there, do you
like do you talk about that in the book. I
know that's about like the trap, but is that one
of the traps, Like this feeling of like we're on
this path and all of a sudden there's this fear
that what if this doesn't work out? Yes, what if
I fail?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
This is so real, right, But I think failure is
part of the process. Obviously as people of color, as
a black woman, you're held to completely different standards, and
so we also have to be really conscious of the
like telling us to feel fast and often I think
can be problematic sometimes. But I think that this idea
of like, my biggest fear in life is my unrealized potential, right,
(06:44):
and so I sit.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
With that all. That's what I was trying to say.
That's a much more eloquent and succinct way of saying it.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
But I think that when we live from that place, right,
it's I think it's a bit of a fight or
flight thought. Well it is for me anyway, right, And
so but it does elucidate the trap because you know,
so many of us are told to take up space
and to speak truth to power, and when we do,
we're told that our stories aren't we real or we're
told to throw our hats in the ring. And we're
told we're both like too much and not enough at
the very same time. And this is the trap, right that,
(07:12):
like we could somehow be both too much and not enough,
and then we try to outwork a broken system. And
so the ambition trap and overcoming the ambition trap is
about living into purposeful ambition versus painful ambition. So I'll
tell you what I mean by that. So painful ambition
is driven by the core wounds, and it has a
couple of signatures. So there are five core wounds. They
are rejection, abandonment, humiliation, betrayal, and injustice. And as a
(07:36):
result of each of the wounds, we are a corresponding mask.
So if we have a betrayal wound, the mask we
were as control. If we have an injustice wound, the
mask we wear as rigidity or perfection. And then you
can imagine that if we build our ambitions upon that,
it can be a bit of a house of cards.
And that's what I did, right, That's kind of like
how my life came tumbling down, and I think that's
true for a lot of the people that I've coached
(07:56):
as well. And so painful ambition the signatures are moving
at unsustainable urgency black and white either or thinking hyper
focus on individualism versus collaboration, instrumentalizing our minds and bodies
to squeeze every last drop of productivity out of ourselves.
And so the invitation really is to look at the
wounds that are driving our relationship to ambition and that
(08:19):
painful ambition and see if we can do some work
on them and pivot into that more purposeful relationship with ambition,
the more wide driven ambition.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
And was all this knowledge that you have now, like
understanding like the wounds that the ambitions coming from, did
you have that before prior to this health scare? Or
was that part of your journey post scare? Like how
did this work start for you after you had that?
You know, that health scare and moving forward from there.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Oh, I was one hundred percent a mess when I
had the health scare. And I think it's like life
looks great, Like I look like I had it together. Right.
When I use the word mess, people are kind of like,
is that the right word? But it was so messy
in my head because I had all of these ideas
about what success looked like, how I needed to show up,
and I was absolutely coming from a place of pain.
So I have a betrayal wound, which is when we
(09:04):
feel like our caregivers don't live up to expectations, so
we try to control everything. I have a rejection wound
because I grew up a brown kid in a larger
body and was just like ruthlessly bullied growing up. And
so I was like, Okay, I'll avoid if I don't
throw my hat in the ring for things, I never
have to be heard again. And those patterns were playing
out so big in my work life, especially the control one,
(09:24):
and I think that's the one that was making me
the sickest because I was trying to dot every eye,
cross every tea, control everything to feel safe, and you
just can't. And so I after my health scare, I
went on what I call my eat Prey love here,
and I was still working, but I basically would like
went to study nutrition. I went to study mindfulness, somatics,
all these things just to kind of feel better for myself.
(09:46):
And when I did, I was like, Oh, this is amazing.
I don't have to suffer through work. I need to
teach this. So it was a couple of years after
that that I put together my curriculum and started coaching.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
So you're working and when we talk about your corporate career,
you said, six years in you're kind of having this
health scare. But I'm curious, like, was some of that
driven from the career path that you chose? So can
you take me back to where you were at in
your career at that point. You're in New York City,
You're in marketing, but what were you what was your
day to day like?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So I had started my career in marketing and I
initially worked on the brand side. So I worked at Cartier.
That was my first job. And then while I was
at Cartier, I got this really cool opportunity to work
on their Women's Initiative Awards, which is this contest and
they work with female entrepreneurs and you basically they give
funding and mentorship to these female entrepreneurs and nobody was
(10:39):
doing anything like that at the time. I was like,
this is so cool. I want to figure out a
way to do this full time. So I wrote a
business plan and I pitched it to someone that I'd
gone to school with, and I was like, let's start
this agency where we work with emerging female entrepreneurs and
one side can be traditional agency, so we can pay
the bills. The other side can be will take sweat
equity in these companies to help build them. And I
(11:00):
had no boundaries, and I was deep rest dependent and
so imagine starting a business with some of those traits.
And so I would put my clients before myself, I
would put my employees before myself. And I just didn't
know how to take care of myself and grow a
business at the same time.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
And then I think it happens, like in your mid
twenties at this time, Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I'm an elder millennial, and I feel like that's such
a millennial thing to do too.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Wait, what's the millennial thing to do? Well?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
You know, just I like look back off and I
was like, wow, the hubris of being like, I'm twenty six,
I'm going to start a company, you know.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Oh man, Sometimes I see I'm an elder millennial too,
And one of my ambition traps now is starting to
feel like, wait, should I have done things differently ten
years ago? Should I have done this more early in
my career that more? It's such a useless train of thought.
It's like that, yeah, the mind part of the mental
part of it, like these little side quest that your
(12:00):
brain tries to take you on as one of the
the biggest challenges I found of like being at this
stage like the I don't know what you call it,
Like you're not You're definitely not in the beginning of
your career. You're not a brand new, bright eyed, bushytail
entrepreneur anymore. But you're like not where you want to
be yet. I don't know what this messy middle is, yeah,
but it is some bullshit. It is hard. It is hard.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
It is hard. I find myself even thinking about like
the fourth quarter of my career too, because I do
feel like, well, I know, and I've seen it with
my clients, like agism is so real, and so I'm
putting a lot of pressure on myself to like knock
it out of the park in my forties because I
just feel like agism is the realist and that's not
a helpful thought for me either. And so I do
(12:45):
think the mindset work is such a big part of it,
the mindset work the nervous system work, because they go
hand in hand.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Ooh, the agism. Yeah, I mean I think that you
you don't really feel it until you think it gets
right to get in your forties. I'm not quite there yet,
but I will be. And for me, I just think
about the studies I used to cover as a journalist
that were, like women reach their peak earning years at
like forty four or forty three, whatever it is. I
forget what it is now and you haven't looked up recently.
(13:12):
And then what I have found that helps is I
will try to listen to as many women over fifty
as possible, So I will like actively go go and
search them, like where are they talking about? Like where
are they? Where are they? Where they at? And where
can I listen to them? And then I find my
my sources of inspiration, especially ones who like didn't hit
it big until like their forties and fifties. That helps
(13:34):
a lot. It's like that opposite action side of things. Okay,
So back to your your your not your year of yes,
your eat prey love year. Okay. So, and this is
happening in tandem with the pandemic ors is like before that,
this is.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
This is pretty pandy a long time.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
So you're in your twenty you're girl bossing yourself and
you have you know, and then you're you're struggling. You
said you have like boundary issues and you're putting everyone
before yourself, and then it starts to manifest as like
you're stopping feeling well and then you have this health scare.
So then do you just leave the business? What do
you end up doing with the business?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Over the course of a year, I figured how to
transition out. So it was the first time i'd gone
to life coaching as well. So I remember like coming
home and getting this diagnosis and talking to my roommate
at the time, and very serendipitously, she was like, well,
this woman that I work with just started this life
coachi Berger and I was like, I don't I need it.
I don't want to know anything about it. I'm going like,
where's the sign up sheet? Like literally, I didn't do
(14:34):
any research. I just signed up. And I think it
was one of those it was such an important moment.
I'm so glad that I said yes. They really helped
me transition out of the business. At first, they were like,
are you sure, Like, let's not jump from the frying
pan into the fire. But I just had this deep
knowing that that wasn't the place that I could thrive.
That I just made such a mess of things that
I needed to do over and I had made choices
(14:55):
from a not aligned space. I'd made choices from like
what I thought my life should look like, and what
I thought would be shiny and wonderful, and what I
thought would get me celebrated and all the things right
really from my wounds. And so over the course of
a year, I wrote my transition plan, I hired a
replacement for myself, and then there was a couple of
months where I was job hunting and had nothing lined
(15:16):
up and like it was just my job to find
a job and just keep working on my own mindset
and well being. And then I ended up taking two
roles consecutively as head of marketing for different wellness companies.
And it was because the wellness space had kind of
like brought me back to life in lots of ways,
and I was like, oh, okay, like maybe this is
where I want to be spending my heart beats. But
(15:37):
it was kind of me dragging my feet. I wasn't
quite ready yet to jump into coaching, and so I
needed these two experiences before I was ready. But then
the last corporate America experience I had was so hilacious
and I won't name names, but I think sometimes things
need to be really terrible so that you will jump
off the cliff. And I just kind of felt like
I was like, it is now or never. I feel
like I don't have a choice, Like I can't stay
(15:58):
here every day, pulling on my life size callous to
get through the day. Like I think it's time to
do my own thing. And so I did. I jumped
off the cliff. And then that year was a year
of transition, and I was doing some marketing consulting because
I knew that's what I could pay the bills with,
and then I was building my coaching practice at the
same time. And then over the course of a year,
I was able to let go of those marketing clients
(16:19):
and step fully into coaching.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Our journeys are very similar.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
I wonder, I love you so much.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah, I wish you know, sometimes I'm like, damn, do
we have to burn out so? Or does it have
to be so sometimes that You're right, A lot of
the stories of women who launch your own business is big.
You know, they start with some sort of like corporate
you know, experience that's so toxic, or they get laid
off or they get fired or it's just so toxic
(16:49):
they have to leave, or it's just like such a
you know, there's some kind of like big dramatic traumatic
event that then that starts. That is that in and
of itself? Like does does that mean that I started
my business from a space of like a wound that
I need to unpack, Like is that you know because
it or is it like what I always I don't
(17:09):
really know. I don't know if I would have always done.
It felt very natural to start the business the way
that I did, but in a way, and I used
to say, well, I'm so grateful that that didn't work
out because I had told myself I needed the validation
of that brand that business to like prepare me to
do the thing like and almost like you just said
a second ago, like you need those two jobs before
(17:30):
you were ready to coach. But yeah, I wonder now,
like I guess maybe because it's like five years back
and I'm looking and I'm like, I don't know how
if things would be different had I had I not
had that sort of like you know that that forced
you know, start that or that forced like come to
(17:50):
Jesus moment where I had an opportunity to make a choice.
Am I going to go choose another corporate path or
am I going to take a chance on myself? And
a lot of the women that I were where they're
also coming from that space as well, Like I don't
want to do this anymore, And so is the option
like doing my own thing or should I try and
take a bet on another corporate role? And it's even
(18:12):
though I chose my own thing, it's I find it
hard to like give a clear direct answer to that
because you know, there's pros and cons to either side,
and I don't want to guide anyone into a path
of entrepreneurship because it's so hard and it's so stressful
when maybe sometimes the comfort or at least like the
quote unquote security of corporate might be you know, fine
(18:35):
for them. Right now, Does that make any sense at all?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
It makes complete sense. And I think each of our
risk profiles are different depending on our lived experience and
our financial status, right, Each of our risk profiles are different,
and I think each of our skill sets are different too,
and so bumping those two things up against each other,
for somebody, it might make sense to actually take the
next corporate role, but in a place that's more aligned
with their values. But for somebody else that really needs
(19:00):
it's freedom and that's a top ranking value for them,
Maybe it is entrepreneurship, and they're willing to meet the
toughness of it because the other side of it gives
them everything that they want. I think it's really different
for each of us. And just going back to your
question about the pain piece, it's like, I don't think
that there is one universal right answer, but for most
of the people that I coach, they do have to
(19:21):
have these moments of deep pain because the pain has
to be big enough that then we're willing to navigate
the fear. Right has to be so uncomfortable that we're
willing to cross the cap to the other side. Listen,
I've met some people and I think that they're rare
that they're like I didn't need the deep pain, and
I'm like, blessings to you, like, write a book, teach
us how But most of the people that I know
(19:42):
need to experience extreme discomfort so they can choose another way.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Yeah, you just think about like the tech bros that
I would encounter earlier in my career. You know, I
came up in like business finance, journalism and you know,
working at Business Insider and I'm unpacking all that in
the book now that I'm working on, and and that
culture of just like you know, they didn't have some
deep trauma. They just were like, I'm want to start
a business everyone, you know, I'm just gonna like get
(20:07):
a bunch of dous together. We're gonna start this, We're
gonna get funding, and it's just like fine. And then
like women, the women of color that I work with,
there is that deep pain and trauma. Maybe that's I mean,
I understand it's racism, it's sexism. It's just like the
cards that were dealt. But part of me is like, dang,
can't it just be like we just had a lot
to offer, We just wanted to do this, and we
just la la la. But that is that like even possible.
(20:32):
We usually have so much on our shoulders. The stakes
are so high, Like you said, it has to be
we have to have something that drives us past that
fear because we have so much to lose.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, I think that's I feel like that's the thesis.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
It's like the tech bros. And I talk a little
bit about them in my book too, Right, they have
a tremendous amount of privilege, right, they were getting the
venture funding. We're getting our tiny slice of the two
point seven percent, right, and so the ways are going
to part for them in a way that they won't
part for us. And because we meet so much resistance,
we need few and fire for the resistance, and sometimes
that is the pain, right to get us over this threshold.
(21:05):
I wish it were different, and I think that's I
think I remain hopeful. I remain hopeful that it can
be different, and that the next generation will get to
stand on our shoulders and that it can be different.
But we meet our shadows in entrepreneurship more so than
anywhere else. We meet such headwinds in the workplace right
that I think we have to use that to fuel
(21:28):
us forward.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Now we're talking about, like you said, that big shift
and that passion, but you also talk about the book
in the book, how that's not always enough, and I
would agree. I think that if it's whatever that wound
is and you're fighting against it, like that sense of betrayal,
we'll all get back or I'll control everything that can't
last forever. So is that one of the traps, like
(21:51):
you kind of start to peter out like that whatever
that was that was driving you, and then you kind
of are are you stuck then? Trying to figure out
what's going to drive me now? And then what's your
advice to people who are who are feeling that like
that lack of drive, like whatever was fueling me as
run out? Now, how do I keep going?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Right? That's when I think that we really need to
look at the bigger purpose question, the bigger why.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Right.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
So so many people talk about passion, and listen, passion
is great, we need it. But passion is fickle. It
is meant to shift for every stage of our life.
Right when I was going through my prey love here,
I was like really passionate about nutrition. Actually went to
nutrition school for a stint. Right, That's I didn't become
a nutritionist, right, didn't ancher my life in it. And
so it's important to make space for passion, but not
(22:34):
to anchor everything to it because it is by nature transient.
It's supposed to change over time, which is why I
think purpose is more important. So that deeper why, And
in the book, I have this five part framework for
building purposeful work, and I think that it needs to
leverage our zone of genius. It needs to be aligned
with our values. It needs to be connected with the
impact that we want to have, whether that is with
(22:54):
our family, community, or the greater good. It needs to
be contentment based, and it needs to meet our needs.
And when we are cultivating work that touches on all
five of those areas, that gives us fuel and fire
to keep going. Right, the impact piece. I think about
this so much with your work, with my work. Right,
we came here to help a very specific population and
(23:15):
that's the thing that gets me out of bed every
single day. Right, It's like, I cannot let these people down. Also,
when we're showing up in our zones of genius, right,
that is innate for us. So we don't actually have
to use the same push and effort that we do
if we're showing up in our zone of excellence, it
just flows a little bit easier. So these are things
that we can tap into that allow us to kind
of be carried with the waves and the current versus
(23:35):
you know, fighting that uphill battle.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Heyba, fam, We're going to take a quick break, pay
some bills and we'll be right back. Well, can we
talk about like just sort of the not sexy side
of like, you know, being in business or even in leadership.
I mean you talk about Before I ask that question,
I wanted to get more clarity on, like the kind
of clients that are working with. Are these are they entrepreneurs,
(24:02):
Are they you know, leaders and executives in a corporate
world or are they a little bit of both.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
A little bit of both. It's actually a fifty to
fifty split. So ninety six percent of my practice identify
as women, seventy percent are women of color. And then
they're split across entrepreneurship and what I call entrepreneurship. And
so the ones that are inside of corporate, they're the first,
the few, the only right. So they might be the
first CEO of their venture fund, they might be the
(24:28):
first one in the c suite at their Fortune five
hundred company. And then for the entrepreneurs, they are usually
VC backed, sometimes service based, and they are solving a
very specific problem, usually based on their lived experience.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Okay, and then what when it comes to the leaders
who are in corporate, the first of few is the onlies.
What are the challenges that they're coming to you to
help them get over?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
You know, I feel like every season's a little bit different,
and I feel like my clients kind of your back
things that I'm navigating, And so one thing that a
lot of them are navigating in this particular season seems
to be authenticity, Right, So how can I not code switch?
How can I show up in my highest and fullest
and cultivate internal stability so it feels safe to do that.
(25:17):
That's something that quite a few of my my clients
are navigating in this moment, And I was like, Oh,
I feel like this is so interesting. Themes definitely come
up in different seasons.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Is that having to do with like, are they trying
to figure out how much of their thoughts on like
politics and policy to be authentic about or like, yeah,
can you say more about that? Yeah? And you know,
there's so much happening in the news right now, assassination
on what's his face? I don't want to say, and
you know, there's everything happening in the Middle East, and Jesus, like,
(25:47):
I actually deleted Instagram off my phone this morning, wow,
because of the things I was encountering when I went
on too, like IG in these spaces where I have
to show up and anyway, Yeah, I'm wondering what is
it that they're wanting to be authentic about but not sure.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah, So I have one client that is transitioning. They like,
but it's something like they are in the Midwest. They're
in sort of the belly of the beast of capitalism,
and they're like, how do I show up every day
in my values and true to myself and say a
thing where it doesn't feel safe to say a thing
where I could lose my income if I say a thing.
(26:25):
They're also a person of color, and so there's just
so much complexity to that and there's no right answer
to that, and sort of supporting them through finding their
own way in it, but it's really complex. I also
have another client who woman of color in banking, again
sort of like in the belly of beasts of capitalism
and wanting to support queer folks and people of color
(26:47):
and just being able to bring some white folks on
the journey and help them understand how the experiences are
different and cultivate more spaces where people can have community
spaces and practice being more in their authenticity. And so, yeah,
I think it's a wild time for all of my
clients because a lot of them want to say the thing,
(27:08):
and they don't feel safe to say the thing, and
they have families that they have to feed, and so
they're navigating that space of you know, how do because
I feel like everything that we go through in the
day is asking us can we rise to meet our
authenticity and our self worth or not? Right? And I
don't think there's any right or wrong answer, because I
think sometimes it just is not safe, and so I
feel like each of them are navigating that in different ways,
(27:30):
if that makes any sense.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
It's so freaking hard. I mean, it doesn't feel Maybe
in twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, there was a sense
of like the corporations were at least that they weren't
completely sincere We know that now, but there was more
tall a little bit more tolerance for the kinds of conversations.
But today everything feels like so like everyone's on tenter hooks,
(27:54):
And I don't even know what advice I would have
for someone in that situation. Honestly, I might be like,
you know, talk to your therapist, talk to your community,
and don't bring that shit to work. Right now, it's
like nothing is so safe. So yeah, I'm glad that
it's you and not me being asked those questions. But
what have you found yourself saying in some of these
if you can share a little bit of you know,
(28:15):
some of the advice you've given them.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Yeah, and okay, and I want to add one thing
into after that. Okay, Okay. So I do this thing
with my clients where they have unlimited voice messaging support
with me, because I feel like, especially if you're a first,
if you the only, there are so few spaces where
you have somebody that links arms with you and is
willing to partner with you, right, because it's so lonely
(28:36):
in those spaces, it's so lonely at the top. So
we'll be voice noting about a lot of these challenges.
And so one of the things that I was saying
to my clients the other day is like, there's no
right or wrong answer.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
You have to cultivate internal stability.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
You have to support your nervous system to feel as
safe as you can in a room. Right, But we
don't know what we're going to encounter in that room.
All we wanted what we can do is support our
nervous systems so that it can act appropriately right where
it might be like a fight or flight response, because
that space is not safe, right, So I'm trying to
support them to find that internal stability and find the
(29:08):
most resonant action in that space without putting their lives
on the line, right, And a lot of the times,
my invitation for them is cultivating community and finding their
allies and advocates because they're safety in numbers, right, and
in those spaces, that's kind of the best thing that
we can do. And so who are those people that
if you're going to say something in a room, they're
going to have your back, or they're going to have
(29:29):
your back afterwards, or they're going to second whatever you're saying.
And really seeing if you can find those pockets of
community to create the external stability to mirror the internal
stability that you're creating for yourself.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
What was the thing that you were going to add?
Speaker 2 (29:43):
So my book came out in May, and I started
to think about my marketing plan last November, and I
kind of got on the court with a lot of
my asks in early twenty twenty five. And so as
soon as I started planting seats, I'm a you know,
executive coach, leadership coach. I do a lot of work
with ergs, specifically for women's groups, four people of color.
(30:04):
And so when I was talking to these ergs was
right around the time of the executive orders and dismantling
all of the ergs literally happening at exactly the same time.
And there was a moment where well, one, of course,
like I was outraged, and I also went to victim mode.
I felt personally victimized by this in the way that
so many people do. And I was like, okay, but
(30:26):
if I stay in victim mode, they win.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
If I stay in victim mode, this work doesn't get
into the hands of the people that need it, and
they win. And I was like, okay, I have to
find the ways, the different ways to get this work
into people's hands. Because I had organizations that I had
spoken to at the end of twenty twenty four and
they're like, okay, we'll buy two hundred books for this conference.
We'll buy five hundred books for this talk. And I
was like great. And then literally in February, I had
them calling me being like, we can't take your books,
(30:50):
find some other place to donate them, like we can't
have your books in our four walls. And so then
I had to get really agile about Okay, well, what
are the other pockets and spaces that I can find
to get this work out? And that's my invitation for
my clients too, Right, if we can't do it in
the four walls, what are the other ways and what
are the other spaces and places we can get this
work out? Because the work doesn't stop necessary.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
I'm really sorry that that happened. So how did you
pivot or did you pivot in your strategy? Because I
know for a lot of authors, getting those you know,
getting those speaking opportunities and getting corporations to make these
big orders is is like a key part of success.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
So then I looked for community groups. I looked for
the women's groups, the you know, I did a group,
I did a talk for the Arab American Association of Bankers. Right,
I looked for all of the spaces in the pockets
of where my people were. And sometimes there were twelve
people in a room versus two hundred people in a room,
and it required more energy and effort from me. But
(31:51):
I also think I probably got more nourishment back being
in those rooms than I ever would have gotten in
the five hundred person room. And so you know, there
definitely was a rub in the beginning, and I think
that it all works out the way that it's supposed to.
And I was worried, like I'm a chronic illness early,
so I was worried. I was like, Okay, am I
going to be able to lift this?
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Right?
Speaker 2 (32:11):
This is asking more of me? But I ended up
getting so much more back being in those rooms that
I think I think it worked out.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
I mean, damn, your book is I mean, it's not giving.
It doesn't have any of like the trigger words that
I feel like it would get, you know, deleted by
the government these days, Like I talk.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
About white supremacy culture, like I opened the.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Book, but you got to open the book and read
the words to get to that good stuff, you know
what I mean, Like, I don't think the thing a
lot of people in power are like opening books and
looking at the words, you know, Like I can't imagine
being on a banned book list because it's so so
look it's cute, it's all it's pig.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
No.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
But I mean obviously, I mean, since then it's become
a best seller, right, you had the was it the US?
You made the US to USA today bestsellers list. Congratulations
that I know that doesn't matter, but it matters.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
I thought was like, it'll move my flywheels. So I
was working really hard not to come from a core
wound with this book, right, So I was like, you know,
rejection wound. Right, So I was working really hard not
to come from that place. And so my thought process
with the best seller list was like, if I hit
the best seller list, more people will see it, more
people see it, more people will buy it, more people
will recommend it, more people will buy it, and round
(33:25):
and round and round will go.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
I don't know that it's worked out that way, but
I'm glad that I was able to shift my come
from and not come from a place of pain.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Yeah. Oh I yeah, I girl. The things I've heard
about like how how to think about the lists and
how to and these like these rewards or these like
trappings of success and list should I mean, I signed
with a big podcast network in March, and even then,
I know, I'm like, just because you get the thing
that looks like success, it doesn't always end up being
(33:54):
the thing. And and I'm like, dang, I would like
to learn a different lesson, Like I'd like now that
I've had enough of those, like the accolade, like the
like the trapping of successes does not always lead to
the big whatever breakthrough moment that you're expecting. I would
like one of those. I think I've had enough disappointments,
like by now, you know what I mean, Like, can
(34:15):
we get some like wins that actually are like a win, Yeah,
like game changers for you.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
That's my intention for you, that you get some game
changing wins.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Yeah, it's just you know, And I think it goes
back to like being an entrepreneur as a woman and
a woman of color, like and I in the book
that I'm working on, and I think you do a
great job of this too. There's this relationship with like
data and statistics and the reality the reality check that
you want people to like be grounded in, you know,
like a realistic expectation. But at the same time, the
(34:47):
expectations for us are usually on the lower side. And
my my mission is always to like find the optimism
and find the but what if there's an exception? And
what if you are the exception? To find that expectation,
And there's no way I can continue that without that
community around me echoing it in times when I start
(35:07):
to doubt myself. And with that, I want to talk
to you about your community and as you have had
these you know, different chapters of your career and you
know in your coaching, how have you gone about building
a support system for yourself to carry yourself through this
and how important has that been for you?
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Yes, I want to say something's your last point and
then I promise I'll answer this. Okay, But I was
when I was writing the book, what I learned is
that less than three percent of books sell more than
a thousand copies. And then I was looking at book
sales for my particular identity and just like publish authors
that are Arab it's like less than one percent of
published authors in the US are Middle Eastern, And I
(35:48):
was like, I had, like it is my mission to
beat the odds, Like this is unjust like we need
to take up space, right, And so I think sometimes
that can also be the fuel and the fire, and
I think it's really important that we find our ways
to really shift the numbers and the data.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Just going back too and congratulations, yes, amen, And I
know it was so much work.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yeah, And I'm here to support you every step of
the journey because it is wild.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
I need it.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Community has supported me so big when I had my
book launch party and I took the stage and I
was telling people like, you know, I'm so happy to
be here. But literally, none of this is possible without community, right,
Like we are made of the people in the rooms.
We are made of the people that will have us
on the podcast, we are made of the editors that
say yes to us, and so none of this is
possible alone. And I think it's so important to remind
(36:37):
ourselves of that the toxic individualism is part of painful ambition, right,
that we have to do it all ourselves and nobody
is helping us, and that we're self made, right, nobody
is self made. We are made of people in these rooms,
and I just think it's so important that we remember that,
that we give gratitude for that, that we pour into
those people in the same way that they're pouring into us.
But I had all different kinds of communities supporting me
(36:58):
throughout the three year journey, from my best friend who
literally was such an important emotional support, like bless her,
she heard some wild parts of the story, like she's
incredible to my amazing editor, and my amazing agent, and
my family, my sisters. I have many sisters, and I'm
just grateful for each of them.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
How many?
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Well, okay, four from the same parents, so we're five.
And then my dad got remarried and has two more girls,
so I'm technically one of seven girls.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Wow, I only have one sister, and we're just like
clinging to each other, like like those orders that you
see in the mains, like holding on for dear life.
That's And where do you fall in the birth order?
Speaker 2 (37:35):
I'm two of five?
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Oh number two? Okay, so you're older but not the
oldest yea. But yeah, do you feel like your dynamic
and your siblings, Like how has that helped you? Or
I mean it's offered you that support, But how is
it being one of the older children? Is that part
of the drive? And like that gives you that sense
of like I'm going to be a boss.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
It's interesting. So like we're mixed, and I think like
being mixed is a very particular lived experience, and so
having these five other humans that are navigating something similar,
I think is so so important. Just like even now,
like I'm noticing hormonal shifts in my life, but I
can't always go to my mom right because like, we're
not exactly the same, and so having these having sisters
(38:17):
who have a similar lived experience to me, I feel like,
is really really helpful. But I talk about this in
the introduction of my book Growing Up. My older sister
was really sick with type one diabetes, and so I
kind of assumed the older sister role. So though I'm
number two, I really feel like older sister vibes, but
then also sometimes feel like the middle child, and so
we have a separate middle sister group chat. Sorry, older
(38:40):
and youngest sister.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
You get to be so you get the best of
both worlds.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
I get the best of all worlds.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Yeah, exactly, middle sister group chat.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Okay, we're like anybody else feel invisibleized This week.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
I think I'm coming into my middle sister. I'm like
the oldest because I also have a blended fan family
or four. First, I have two older siblings, but I'm
the oldest of my dad's kids, a boy and a girl.
So I feel like the older sibling but also very
much a middle sibling. These days, I'm just like and
Peggy over here is kind of how I feel like. Yeah,
(39:17):
so shout out to the middle kids. Get that middle
kid chet girling.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
It's very helpful.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
It would just be me. There's not that many of
us sevens a lot. Do you and what kinds of
career paths have your siblings taken? Do they come to
you for advice or is it like, oh, that's amana,
I'm not gonna you know. I was there when she
was into backstreet boys or whatever it was.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
They came to you for advice sometimes. My older sister
is a lawyer, and I think she's had like a
bit of a love hate relationship with it, and so
there's definitely been seasons where she's like, I want to
be a stylist. What would that look like? And I'm like,
let's talk about it. And then my sister number four
is a social worker and therapist and when she was
(40:00):
navigating that change, was exploring what it could look like
to set up her own business. And so so I think,
you know, they've seen me in all seasons of my life. Right,
so whether they take me quote unquote as seriously as
my clients take me, I think is a different story.
But I think that they know they have a resource
here if they need one.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Good, big sis good, big sis, that's all right, bixits energy,
what's your How do you define like the idea of
scarcity in a career in a career path, and how
does that play into how does that play into the
idea of an ambition? Trap? Is that part of it?
Speaker 2 (40:34):
It is? Scarcity is a big part of it, right,
And I think scarcity is manufactured by the dominant in
group to maintain their power, and then it causes fighting
in the in group, right because we feel like there's
only space for one woman, one woman of color, one
person with a disability, one queer person. And so I
think actually scarcity is a tool of the oppressor.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
And is it that?
Speaker 2 (40:58):
So?
Speaker 1 (40:59):
But how does that how do we get how do
we get over it? How do you get over that
sense of like there's only so much and if they're
not getting it, then I can't either. Or if I
get it, then that's all there is? Like how do
you get over that?
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Because I think that's zero sum thinking, right, If I
get it, then there's none left for anybody else. Like
if I get a book deal, another woman of color
can't get a book deal.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
No.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
When I was actually negotiating my book deal, it was
really important that I negotiated because I was, like, the
advances we get tend to be lower than white women,
and so we need to expand the bands for anybody
that identifies similarly to us. And so I think that
me taking up space and makes space for other people, right,
We're actually just carving out a path, and so I
(41:40):
think that's one of the most important mindset shifts that
we can make. But we can internalize. Right, So scarcity
is perpetuated by the dominant in group, but we can
internalize that and weaponize it against ourselves and tell ourselves, well,
there is only space for this one person, and so
I'm not going to get it or I have to
fight this person out right, But I actually think collaboration
can be even more helpful and even more supportive, so
(42:00):
we can make more space. So like, if you and
I negotiate together, then I think that we can both
win together. Rushia Katulshian, do you know her?
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Oh? Do I know her? Oh? Yeah, It's crazy how
we know all the same people.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
And I feel which she's just a bay book coming
out Uncompete exactly. Shout out to her book Uncompete, which
is all about that. And I think is such an
important and necessary work and interestingly so we've created a
little group with her, me and four other authors, mostly
women of color, to talk about, well, what are the
learnings that we've all had, and how can we support
(42:34):
each other so everybody can have a win, Like, just
because you're at the conference doesn't mean I can't be
at the conference the next year.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yeah, it's it's a question that I get is like uh,
And especially it's one of the reasons why I created
the Mandy money Makers because when I was doing those
free coaching sessions, a theme that came up as like
isolation and feeling alone, and I just wanted to kind
of at least create a space where like I could
help counteract that in some way, shape or form. It's
not the only you don't have to like join a
(43:03):
you know, a professional community like that, but just meeting
one person at an event or online and asking the question,
like my five year old and like ask if they
want to play, it's okay. But as an adult it's
sometimes I don't know, it's like more it's more intimidating.
But I have found like nine times out of ten
(43:24):
they're just love that you asked and the answer is
usually oh my god, yes, please, I need a friend.
How's that been for you? Similar?
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Very similar?
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Right?
Speaker 2 (43:34):
I think it definitely feels awkward. It's not as natural
as it was on the playground, But I don't mind
being I've liked come to embrace my awkward and so
I'll just be like, I feel like we should be friends,
like can we hang out? And one of my dear
friends actually initiated this for me, like sort of invited
me into that because a couple of years ago she
kind of she asked me on a friend date. She
(43:54):
was like, you know, we've seen each other in these rooms,
we kind of move in the same circles, Like, can
we just have a friend date? And then it was
so funny because we had this friend date and it
actually felt like a first date where I was like,
do you want to sit on the inside? Should I
sit on the inside? I love your dress? Can we
share fries? Like it was yeah, that's precaus, But I think,
like make the awkward ask, because nine times out of
(44:15):
tenant you said it works out beautifully and then you
have this amazing friend that you wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Have had you both like I go home and I'll
like text I'm like, this was so great, thank you
so much, Let's do it again? Or like should I
wait till the next day? Should I text now? Is
that too thirsty? Yeah? I think you just got to
be cringe, Like stop being afraid of being cringe and
just be cringe. All right. So obviously everyone listening, be
(44:40):
a family, needs to go get the ambition trap. I
wanted to ask, just to like wrap up the conversation,
how do you hope, like, what's the key takeaway from
the book that you hope that anyone who's reading it
kind of closes the book and they move forward with
this feeling inside or this idea that bost.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
So essentially what I'm saying in the book is that
ambition is neutral and natural. It's for everybody. At its core,
I define it as a desire for more life. So
that can't be right for some people and wrong for others.
But we need to really shift the cultural narrative around ambition,
which is that the framework on the pivot from painful
to purposeful ambition. And so my invitation for people is
to find their right relationship with ambition, not that instrumentalizing hustle,
(45:23):
painful scarcity driven version, but that generative why connected purposeful ambition,
and it's going to look different than what we've seen
in the world because what we've see in around ambition
has been largely dysfunctional and doesn't support people with non
dominant identities. But it needs to look different. And so
my invitation is that you show up in your big ambitions,
that you take care of yourself, because the only trap
(45:45):
is believing that our dreams aren't possible, and I refuse
to let any of us fall into that.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Thank you, Alm Gonna al Taie for joining me on
Brown Ambition. Thanks for thanks for the pre show chat.
I needed that, and Brown Ambition listeners be a fan.
Please go pick up her book. I'm gonna. Where can
they find you online? How can we support your on ig?
I know that.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Thank you so much. You can find me on Instagram
at Amina Altai. I'm sure spelling will be in the
show notes my website. I'm at Altai dot com and
you can get the book everywhere you buy books. If
they don't have it in your local bookstore, you can
just ask that they order it.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
And are you taking new clients? Should we open that
up for BA fam.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Yes, I would love that I always have to plase
on my roster for amazing humans. So if you feel called,
please connect please.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
All right, so, I'm sure we'll link to your websites.
People can go find you if they want to coach.
But first and foremost, get the book. It'll be a
great entry point. Maybe get the book and then you
know that'll make you even better client for a'manna afterward.
All right, thank you so much for taking the time,
ba Fam. Until next time, take care, bye bye, okay
(46:50):
va fam. Thank you so much for listening to this
week's show. I want to shout out to our production team, Courtney,
our editor, Carla, our fearless leader for ideas to launch productions.
I want to shout out my assistant Lauda Escalante and
Cameron McNair for helping me put the show together. It
is not a one person project, as much as I
(47:12):
have tried to make it so these past ten years.
I need help, y'all, and thank goodness I've been able
to put this team around me to support me on
this journey. And to y'all, BA Fam, I love you
so so so so much. Please rate, review, subscribe, make
sure you sign up to the newsletter to get all
the latest updates on upcoming episodes, our ten year anniversary
(47:33):
celebrations to come, and until next time, talk to you
soon via Buy
Hey, hey, va fam, Welcome to Brown Ambition. I have
a very special guest today and I just want to
dive right into this conversation. Let me first do a
proper introduction for today's guest. Her name is I'm Gonna Altai.
She's an executive coach in a now best selling and
celebrated author. I'm Gonna has coached Olympians, fortune one hundred
(00:25):
leaders and founders, and shows us in this book. Her
new book, The Ambition Trap, how to reconnect with ambition
that's rooted in purpose instead of exhaustion. In her book
again The Ambition Trap, if you haven't gotten your copy,
I don't know what you're waiting for. It has the
most gorgeous, beautiful what to be calling this like kind
of a sunset tie dye moment kind of cover. I
(00:46):
love the art, I love the colors in this book,
which I'm going to go ahead and say it's like
the anti hustle guide for anyone who's sick of chasing
success and in the process, as a byproduct of that
that that's cess chasing has to meet, we end up
burnt out, feeling unfulfilled, chasing our own tale, which I
can relate to so deeply, so deeply, so deeply, and
(01:09):
I'm so honored to have Amana here today. She's going
to share how her own journey from burnout to breakthrough
created this guide and how she's come up with practical
tools for making ambition a source of joy not stress.
Welcome to Brown Ambition, Omana. I'm so happy to have
you on the show.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Thank you so much for having me. I had my
fan girl moment before we hit record. I have been
a long point listener of the show.
Speaker 1 (01:32):
Love your work.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
So happy to be here.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
So talk to me about the title. When did you
have the title for the book? Was that the title
from the beginning?
Speaker 2 (01:39):
That was the title from the beginning, And I don't
mean to be annoying, but it dropped in on my
meditation cushion. Now, the subtitle was another story. We probably
had like fifty versions of the subtitle, but the.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Title started on subtitles. I know, I'm on, I'm not
about fifty. I think I probably brainstormed about fifty subtitles.
I didn't even give your as any You need to
shine on the subtitle the ambition trap, how to stop
chasing and start living? There you go. That came to
you on the meditation pillow.
Speaker 2 (02:10):
The ambition trap did how to stop chasing and start
living was a little bit of a different process, okay.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
And at the time, was that something that you had
experienced or were as a coach yourself and you know
coaching leaders. Was it just something that you were confronted
with time and time again, like helping people work through
their own version of the ambition trap.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
Yes, I actually feel like my whole life was a
bit of a walking ambition trap. So I am the
child of immigrants and I was told to just like
put your head down, work really hard. And I took
a lot of cues from my dad. So my dad
is a brown man named Mohammad, and you know, was
trying to find his place in the world of work.
And I just noticed him struggling so much, and I
(02:51):
just picked up a lot of cues from him. And
I carried a lot of that programming into the workplace,
and you know, it served me until it didn't serve me.
I had this like ice on paper life, and six
years into my marketing career, I burned out and developed
two autoimmune diseases. But it happened in this really dramatic
fashion where I'd started to feel really sick, and I'd
been to seven different doctors, because if you're a person
(03:13):
of color, medical gas lighting is super real. And it
was the seventh doctor who called me on a Friday
while I'm going to work and she says, I'm gonna
if you don't go to the hospital today instead of
going to work, you will be days away from multiple
organ failure. So I had gotten so sick. My relationship
to success and ambition was so dysfunctional that it was
(03:33):
almost taking me out for good. And so that was
the beginning of it. That was the beginning of me
realizing that I needed to renegotiate, reevaluate my relationship to
success and ambition. And then as I became a coach,
I just had a front row seat to all of
these people that were highly ambitious but navigating very similar
traps to me. And then it was really interesting. It
all kind of came to this boiling point. In twenty twenty,
(03:56):
at the head of the Social Justice uprisings, I was
collaborating with this organization called Inspired Justice, where I was
doing social impact empowerment coaching, and I ended up coaching
a handful of celebrity girl bosses who were canceled, and
it was a really interesting experience. My book is not
about cancel culture. That's a whole other thing. But what
I was noticing was these patterns alive in these folks
(04:18):
that had also been alive in my life and had
been alive in my other clients' lives, and I'd seen
in my dad. And I was like, Okay, this is
a conversation that I really need to dig deeper into.
And that's where the ambition framework.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Came from, celebrity girl bosses who had been canceled coaching
them on how to uncancel themselves or basically like where
to take their businesses from there.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
Know how to make amends and how to lead differently
and how to show up in the world differently.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
Oh man, were they receptive to that? I mean they
must be, they were doing the coaching, but they.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
Were receptive to it.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
Oh, you're going to take me down a path. I
don't think. Let's focus on the book. I'm just like,
ooh what.
Speaker 2 (04:53):
People hear that and then they want to go down
that path, and you know, it's definitely a path.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Oh man, Okay for another time, that's path for like,
let's get some cocktails, you know, get the kids away,
all right. It's interesting that, you know, I hear what
you're saying about watching your dad. I think in my career,
I'm fine. I'm starting to realize how much of an
influence my own dad had on my relationship to ambition.
(05:20):
He's very much you know, you know, a black man
grew up in the Deep South, and I have a
lot of like complex feelings about him and his in
his career because I do feel like in a lot
of ways he was he underrealized or wasn't able to
like realize his own ambitions for himself. And so when
(05:41):
I approached my career, I sort of looked at it like,
I'm going to do all the things I say I'm
going to do, and I'm going to like fulfill those
ambitions and goals for them for myself. And now that
I'm you know, at this stage, you know, I'm I'm
I've been five years into entrepreneurship kind of full time,
and sometimes I have I now, I'm finding this fear
(06:02):
that I'm going to end up like that as well,
that it won't like I won't get there, do you
like do you talk about that in the book. I
know that's about like the trap, but is that one
of the traps, Like this feeling of like we're on
this path and all of a sudden there's this fear
that what if this doesn't work out? Yes, what if
I fail?
Speaker 2 (06:23):
This is so real, right, But I think failure is
part of the process. Obviously as people of color, as
a black woman, you're held to completely different standards, and
so we also have to be really conscious of the
like telling us to feel fast and often I think
can be problematic sometimes. But I think that this idea
of like, my biggest fear in life is my unrealized potential, right,
(06:44):
and so I sit.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
With that all. That's what I was trying to say.
That's a much more eloquent and succinct way of saying it.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
But I think that when we live from that place, right,
it's I think it's a bit of a fight or
flight thought. Well it is for me anyway, right, And
so but it does elucidate the trap because you know,
so many of us are told to take up space
and to speak truth to power, and when we do,
we're told that our stories aren't we real or we're
told to throw our hats in the ring. And we're
told we're both like too much and not enough at
the very same time. And this is the trap, right that,
(07:12):
like we could somehow be both too much and not enough,
and then we try to outwork a broken system. And
so the ambition trap and overcoming the ambition trap is
about living into purposeful ambition versus painful ambition. So I'll
tell you what I mean by that. So painful ambition
is driven by the core wounds, and it has a
couple of signatures. So there are five core wounds. They
are rejection, abandonment, humiliation, betrayal, and injustice. And as a
(07:36):
result of each of the wounds, we are a corresponding mask.
So if we have a betrayal wound, the mask we
were as control. If we have an injustice wound, the
mask we wear as rigidity or perfection. And then you
can imagine that if we build our ambitions upon that,
it can be a bit of a house of cards.
And that's what I did, right, That's kind of like
how my life came tumbling down, and I think that's
true for a lot of the people that I've coached
(07:56):
as well. And so painful ambition the signatures are moving
at unsustainable urgency black and white either or thinking hyper
focus on individualism versus collaboration, instrumentalizing our minds and bodies
to squeeze every last drop of productivity out of ourselves.
And so the invitation really is to look at the
wounds that are driving our relationship to ambition and that
(08:19):
painful ambition and see if we can do some work
on them and pivot into that more purposeful relationship with ambition,
the more wide driven ambition.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
And was all this knowledge that you have now, like
understanding like the wounds that the ambitions coming from, did
you have that before prior to this health scare? Or
was that part of your journey post scare? Like how
did this work start for you after you had that?
You know, that health scare and moving forward from there.
Speaker 2 (08:43):
Oh, I was one hundred percent a mess when I
had the health scare. And I think it's like life
looks great, Like I look like I had it together. Right.
When I use the word mess, people are kind of like,
is that the right word? But it was so messy
in my head because I had all of these ideas
about what success looked like, how I needed to show up,
and I was absolutely coming from a place of pain.
So I have a betrayal wound, which is when we
(09:04):
feel like our caregivers don't live up to expectations, so
we try to control everything. I have a rejection wound
because I grew up a brown kid in a larger
body and was just like ruthlessly bullied growing up. And
so I was like, Okay, I'll avoid if I don't
throw my hat in the ring for things, I never
have to be heard again. And those patterns were playing
out so big in my work life, especially the control one,
(09:24):
and I think that's the one that was making me
the sickest because I was trying to dot every eye,
cross every tea, control everything to feel safe, and you
just can't. And so I after my health scare, I
went on what I call my eat Prey love here,
and I was still working, but I basically would like
went to study nutrition. I went to study mindfulness, somatics,
all these things just to kind of feel better for myself.
(09:46):
And when I did, I was like, Oh, this is amazing.
I don't have to suffer through work. I need to
teach this. So it was a couple of years after
that that I put together my curriculum and started coaching.
Speaker 1 (09:58):
So you're working and when we talk about your corporate career,
you said, six years in you're kind of having this
health scare. But I'm curious, like, was some of that
driven from the career path that you chose? So can
you take me back to where you were at in
your career at that point. You're in New York City,
You're in marketing, but what were you what was your
day to day like?
Speaker 2 (10:18):
So I had started my career in marketing and I
initially worked on the brand side. So I worked at Cartier.
That was my first job. And then while I was
at Cartier, I got this really cool opportunity to work
on their Women's Initiative Awards, which is this contest and
they work with female entrepreneurs and you basically they give
funding and mentorship to these female entrepreneurs and nobody was
(10:39):
doing anything like that at the time. I was like,
this is so cool. I want to figure out a
way to do this full time. So I wrote a
business plan and I pitched it to someone that I'd
gone to school with, and I was like, let's start
this agency where we work with emerging female entrepreneurs and
one side can be traditional agency, so we can pay
the bills. The other side can be will take sweat
equity in these companies to help build them. And I
(11:00):
had no boundaries, and I was deep rest dependent and
so imagine starting a business with some of those traits.
And so I would put my clients before myself, I
would put my employees before myself. And I just didn't
know how to take care of myself and grow a
business at the same time.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
And then I think it happens, like in your mid
twenties at this time, Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
I'm an elder millennial, and I feel like that's such
a millennial thing to do too.
Speaker 1 (11:28):
Wait, what's the millennial thing to do? Well?
Speaker 2 (11:30):
You know, just I like look back off and I
was like, wow, the hubris of being like, I'm twenty six,
I'm going to start a company, you know.
Speaker 1 (11:38):
Oh man, Sometimes I see I'm an elder millennial too,
And one of my ambition traps now is starting to
feel like, wait, should I have done things differently ten
years ago? Should I have done this more early in
my career that more? It's such a useless train of thought.
It's like that, yeah, the mind part of the mental
part of it, like these little side quest that your
(12:00):
brain tries to take you on as one of the
the biggest challenges I found of like being at this
stage like the I don't know what you call it,
Like you're not You're definitely not in the beginning of
your career. You're not a brand new, bright eyed, bushytail
entrepreneur anymore. But you're like not where you want to
be yet. I don't know what this messy middle is, yeah,
but it is some bullshit. It is hard. It is hard.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
It is hard. I find myself even thinking about like
the fourth quarter of my career too, because I do
feel like, well, I know, and I've seen it with
my clients, like agism is so real, and so I'm
putting a lot of pressure on myself to like knock
it out of the park in my forties because I
just feel like agism is the realist and that's not
a helpful thought for me either. And so I do
(12:45):
think the mindset work is such a big part of it,
the mindset work the nervous system work, because they go
hand in hand.
Speaker 1 (12:50):
Ooh, the agism. Yeah, I mean I think that you
you don't really feel it until you think it gets
right to get in your forties. I'm not quite there yet,
but I will be. And for me, I just think
about the studies I used to cover as a journalist
that were, like women reach their peak earning years at
like forty four or forty three, whatever it is. I
forget what it is now and you haven't looked up recently.
(13:12):
And then what I have found that helps is I
will try to listen to as many women over fifty
as possible, So I will like actively go go and
search them, like where are they talking about? Like where
are they? Where are they? Where they at? And where
can I listen to them? And then I find my
my sources of inspiration, especially ones who like didn't hit
it big until like their forties and fifties. That helps
(13:34):
a lot. It's like that opposite action side of things. Okay,
So back to your your your not your year of yes,
your eat prey love year. Okay. So, and this is
happening in tandem with the pandemic ors is like before that,
this is.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
This is pretty pandy a long time.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
So you're in your twenty you're girl bossing yourself and
you have you know, and then you're you're struggling. You
said you have like boundary issues and you're putting everyone
before yourself, and then it starts to manifest as like
you're stopping feeling well and then you have this health scare.
So then do you just leave the business? What do
you end up doing with the business?
Speaker 2 (14:13):
Over the course of a year, I figured how to
transition out. So it was the first time i'd gone
to life coaching as well. So I remember like coming
home and getting this diagnosis and talking to my roommate
at the time, and very serendipitously, she was like, well,
this woman that I work with just started this life
coachi Berger and I was like, I don't I need it.
I don't want to know anything about it. I'm going like,
where's the sign up sheet? Like literally, I didn't do
(14:34):
any research. I just signed up. And I think it
was one of those it was such an important moment.
I'm so glad that I said yes. They really helped
me transition out of the business. At first, they were like,
are you sure, Like, let's not jump from the frying
pan into the fire. But I just had this deep
knowing that that wasn't the place that I could thrive.
That I just made such a mess of things that
I needed to do over and I had made choices
(14:55):
from a not aligned space. I'd made choices from like
what I thought my life should look like, and what
I thought would be shiny and wonderful, and what I
thought would get me celebrated and all the things right
really from my wounds. And so over the course of
a year, I wrote my transition plan, I hired a
replacement for myself, and then there was a couple of
months where I was job hunting and had nothing lined
(15:16):
up and like it was just my job to find
a job and just keep working on my own mindset
and well being. And then I ended up taking two
roles consecutively as head of marketing for different wellness companies.
And it was because the wellness space had kind of
like brought me back to life in lots of ways,
and I was like, oh, okay, like maybe this is
where I want to be spending my heart beats. But
(15:37):
it was kind of me dragging my feet. I wasn't
quite ready yet to jump into coaching, and so I
needed these two experiences before I was ready. But then
the last corporate America experience I had was so hilacious
and I won't name names, but I think sometimes things
need to be really terrible so that you will jump
off the cliff. And I just kind of felt like
I was like, it is now or never. I feel
like I don't have a choice, Like I can't stay
(15:58):
here every day, pulling on my life size callous to
get through the day. Like I think it's time to
do my own thing. And so I did. I jumped
off the cliff. And then that year was a year
of transition, and I was doing some marketing consulting because
I knew that's what I could pay the bills with,
and then I was building my coaching practice at the
same time. And then over the course of a year,
I was able to let go of those marketing clients
(16:19):
and step fully into coaching.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
Our journeys are very similar.
Speaker 2 (16:26):
I wonder, I love you so much.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Yeah, I wish you know, sometimes I'm like, damn, do
we have to burn out so? Or does it have
to be so sometimes that You're right, A lot of
the stories of women who launch your own business is big.
You know, they start with some sort of like corporate
you know, experience that's so toxic, or they get laid
off or they get fired or it's just so toxic
(16:49):
they have to leave, or it's just like such a
you know, there's some kind of like big dramatic traumatic
event that then that starts. That is that in and
of itself? Like does does that mean that I started
my business from a space of like a wound that
I need to unpack, Like is that you know because
it or is it like what I always I don't
(17:09):
really know. I don't know if I would have always done.
It felt very natural to start the business the way
that I did, but in a way, and I used
to say, well, I'm so grateful that that didn't work
out because I had told myself I needed the validation
of that brand that business to like prepare me to
do the thing like and almost like you just said
a second ago, like you need those two jobs before
(17:30):
you were ready to coach. But yeah, I wonder now,
like I guess maybe because it's like five years back
and I'm looking and I'm like, I don't know how
if things would be different had I had I not
had that sort of like you know that that forced
you know, start that or that forced like come to
(17:50):
Jesus moment where I had an opportunity to make a choice.
Am I going to go choose another corporate path or
am I going to take a chance on myself? And
a lot of the women that I were where they're
also coming from that space as well, Like I don't
want to do this anymore, And so is the option
like doing my own thing or should I try and
take a bet on another corporate role? And it's even
(18:12):
though I chose my own thing, it's I find it
hard to like give a clear direct answer to that
because you know, there's pros and cons to either side,
and I don't want to guide anyone into a path
of entrepreneurship because it's so hard and it's so stressful
when maybe sometimes the comfort or at least like the
quote unquote security of corporate might be you know, fine
(18:35):
for them. Right now, Does that make any sense at all?
Speaker 2 (18:38):
It makes complete sense. And I think each of our
risk profiles are different depending on our lived experience and
our financial status, right, Each of our risk profiles are different,
and I think each of our skill sets are different too,
and so bumping those two things up against each other,
for somebody, it might make sense to actually take the
next corporate role, but in a place that's more aligned
with their values. But for somebody else that really needs
(19:00):
it's freedom and that's a top ranking value for them,
Maybe it is entrepreneurship, and they're willing to meet the
toughness of it because the other side of it gives
them everything that they want. I think it's really different
for each of us. And just going back to your
question about the pain piece, it's like, I don't think
that there is one universal right answer, but for most
of the people that I coach, they do have to
(19:21):
have these moments of deep pain because the pain has
to be big enough that then we're willing to navigate
the fear. Right has to be so uncomfortable that we're
willing to cross the cap to the other side. Listen,
I've met some people and I think that they're rare
that they're like I didn't need the deep pain, and
I'm like, blessings to you, like, write a book, teach
us how But most of the people that I know
(19:42):
need to experience extreme discomfort so they can choose another way.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Yeah, you just think about like the tech bros that
I would encounter earlier in my career. You know, I
came up in like business finance, journalism and you know,
working at Business Insider and I'm unpacking all that in
the book now that I'm working on, and and that
culture of just like you know, they didn't have some
deep trauma. They just were like, I'm want to start
a business everyone, you know, I'm just gonna like get
(20:07):
a bunch of dous together. We're gonna start this, We're
gonna get funding, and it's just like fine. And then
like women, the women of color that I work with,
there is that deep pain and trauma. Maybe that's I mean,
I understand it's racism, it's sexism. It's just like the
cards that were dealt. But part of me is like, dang,
can't it just be like we just had a lot
to offer, We just wanted to do this, and we
just la la la. But that is that like even possible.
(20:32):
We usually have so much on our shoulders. The stakes
are so high, Like you said, it has to be
we have to have something that drives us past that
fear because we have so much to lose.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
Yeah, I think that's I feel like that's the thesis.
Speaker 1 (20:44):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
It's like the tech bros. And I talk a little
bit about them in my book too, Right, they have
a tremendous amount of privilege, right, they were getting the
venture funding. We're getting our tiny slice of the two
point seven percent, right, and so the ways are going
to part for them in a way that they won't
part for us. And because we meet so much resistance,
we need few and fire for the resistance, and sometimes
that is the pain, right to get us over this threshold.
(21:05):
I wish it were different, and I think that's I
think I remain hopeful. I remain hopeful that it can
be different, and that the next generation will get to
stand on our shoulders and that it can be different.
But we meet our shadows in entrepreneurship more so than
anywhere else. We meet such headwinds in the workplace right
that I think we have to use that to fuel
(21:28):
us forward.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Now we're talking about, like you said, that big shift
and that passion, but you also talk about the book
in the book, how that's not always enough, and I
would agree. I think that if it's whatever that wound
is and you're fighting against it, like that sense of betrayal,
we'll all get back or I'll control everything that can't
last forever. So is that one of the traps, like
(21:51):
you kind of start to peter out like that whatever
that was that was driving you, and then you kind
of are are you stuck then? Trying to figure out
what's going to drive me now? And then what's your
advice to people who are who are feeling that like
that lack of drive, like whatever was fueling me as
run out? Now, how do I keep going?
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Right? That's when I think that we really need to
look at the bigger purpose question, the bigger why.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
Right.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
So so many people talk about passion, and listen, passion
is great, we need it. But passion is fickle. It
is meant to shift for every stage of our life.
Right when I was going through my prey love here,
I was like really passionate about nutrition. Actually went to
nutrition school for a stint. Right, That's I didn't become
a nutritionist, right, didn't ancher my life in it. And
so it's important to make space for passion, but not
(22:34):
to anchor everything to it because it is by nature transient.
It's supposed to change over time, which is why I
think purpose is more important. So that deeper why, And
in the book, I have this five part framework for
building purposeful work, and I think that it needs to
leverage our zone of genius. It needs to be aligned
with our values. It needs to be connected with the
impact that we want to have, whether that is with
(22:54):
our family, community, or the greater good. It needs to
be contentment based, and it needs to meet our needs.
And when we are cultivating work that touches on all
five of those areas, that gives us fuel and fire
to keep going. Right, the impact piece. I think about
this so much with your work, with my work. Right,
we came here to help a very specific population and
(23:15):
that's the thing that gets me out of bed every
single day. Right, It's like, I cannot let these people down. Also,
when we're showing up in our zones of genius, right,
that is innate for us. So we don't actually have
to use the same push and effort that we do
if we're showing up in our zone of excellence, it
just flows a little bit easier. So these are things
that we can tap into that allow us to kind
of be carried with the waves and the current versus
(23:35):
you know, fighting that uphill battle.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
Heyba, fam, We're going to take a quick break, pay
some bills and we'll be right back. Well, can we
talk about like just sort of the not sexy side
of like, you know, being in business or even in leadership.
I mean you talk about Before I ask that question,
I wanted to get more clarity on, like the kind
of clients that are working with. Are these are they entrepreneurs,
(24:02):
Are they you know, leaders and executives in a corporate
world or are they a little bit of both.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
A little bit of both. It's actually a fifty to
fifty split. So ninety six percent of my practice identify
as women, seventy percent are women of color. And then
they're split across entrepreneurship and what I call entrepreneurship. And
so the ones that are inside of corporate, they're the first,
the few, the only right. So they might be the
first CEO of their venture fund, they might be the
(24:28):
first one in the c suite at their Fortune five
hundred company. And then for the entrepreneurs, they are usually
VC backed, sometimes service based, and they are solving a
very specific problem, usually based on their lived experience.
Speaker 1 (24:44):
Okay, and then what when it comes to the leaders
who are in corporate, the first of few is the onlies.
What are the challenges that they're coming to you to
help them get over?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
You know, I feel like every season's a little bit different,
and I feel like my clients kind of your back
things that I'm navigating, And so one thing that a
lot of them are navigating in this particular season seems
to be authenticity, Right, So how can I not code switch?
How can I show up in my highest and fullest
and cultivate internal stability so it feels safe to do that.
(25:17):
That's something that quite a few of my my clients
are navigating in this moment, And I was like, Oh,
I feel like this is so interesting. Themes definitely come
up in different seasons.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
Is that having to do with like, are they trying
to figure out how much of their thoughts on like
politics and policy to be authentic about or like, yeah,
can you say more about that? Yeah? And you know,
there's so much happening in the news right now, assassination
on what's his face? I don't want to say, and
you know, there's everything happening in the Middle East, and Jesus, like,
(25:47):
I actually deleted Instagram off my phone this morning, wow,
because of the things I was encountering when I went
on too, like IG in these spaces where I have
to show up and anyway, Yeah, I'm wondering what is
it that they're wanting to be authentic about but not sure.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Yeah, So I have one client that is transitioning. They like,
but it's something like they are in the Midwest. They're
in sort of the belly of the beast of capitalism,
and they're like, how do I show up every day
in my values and true to myself and say a
thing where it doesn't feel safe to say a thing
where I could lose my income if I say a thing.
(26:25):
They're also a person of color, and so there's just
so much complexity to that and there's no right answer
to that, and sort of supporting them through finding their
own way in it, but it's really complex. I also
have another client who woman of color in banking, again
sort of like in the belly of beasts of capitalism
and wanting to support queer folks and people of color
(26:47):
and just being able to bring some white folks on
the journey and help them understand how the experiences are
different and cultivate more spaces where people can have community
spaces and practice being more in their authenticity. And so, yeah,
I think it's a wild time for all of my
clients because a lot of them want to say the thing,
(27:08):
and they don't feel safe to say the thing, and
they have families that they have to feed, and so
they're navigating that space of you know, how do because
I feel like everything that we go through in the
day is asking us can we rise to meet our
authenticity and our self worth or not? Right? And I
don't think there's any right or wrong answer, because I
think sometimes it just is not safe, and so I
feel like each of them are navigating that in different ways,
(27:30):
if that makes any sense.
Speaker 1 (27:32):
It's so freaking hard. I mean, it doesn't feel Maybe
in twenty twenty, twenty twenty one, there was a sense
of like the corporations were at least that they weren't
completely sincere We know that now, but there was more
tall a little bit more tolerance for the kinds of conversations.
But today everything feels like so like everyone's on tenter hooks,
(27:54):
And I don't even know what advice I would have
for someone in that situation. Honestly, I might be like,
you know, talk to your therapist, talk to your community,
and don't bring that shit to work. Right now, it's
like nothing is so safe. So yeah, I'm glad that
it's you and not me being asked those questions. But
what have you found yourself saying in some of these
if you can share a little bit of you know,
(28:15):
some of the advice you've given them.
Speaker 2 (28:16):
Yeah, and okay, and I want to add one thing
into after that. Okay, Okay. So I do this thing
with my clients where they have unlimited voice messaging support
with me, because I feel like, especially if you're a first,
if you the only, there are so few spaces where
you have somebody that links arms with you and is
willing to partner with you, right, because it's so lonely
(28:36):
in those spaces, it's so lonely at the top. So
we'll be voice noting about a lot of these challenges.
And so one of the things that I was saying
to my clients the other day is like, there's no
right or wrong answer.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:45):
You have to cultivate internal stability.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
Right.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
You have to support your nervous system to feel as
safe as you can in a room. Right, But we
don't know what we're going to encounter in that room.
All we wanted what we can do is support our
nervous systems so that it can act appropriately right where
it might be like a fight or flight response, because
that space is not safe, right, So I'm trying to
support them to find that internal stability and find the
(29:08):
most resonant action in that space without putting their lives
on the line, right, And a lot of the times,
my invitation for them is cultivating community and finding their
allies and advocates because they're safety in numbers, right, and
in those spaces, that's kind of the best thing that
we can do. And so who are those people that
if you're going to say something in a room, they're
going to have your back, or they're going to have
(29:29):
your back afterwards, or they're going to second whatever you're saying.
And really seeing if you can find those pockets of
community to create the external stability to mirror the internal
stability that you're creating for yourself.
Speaker 1 (29:41):
What was the thing that you were going to add?
Speaker 2 (29:43):
So my book came out in May, and I started
to think about my marketing plan last November, and I
kind of got on the court with a lot of
my asks in early twenty twenty five. And so as
soon as I started planting seats, I'm a you know,
executive coach, leadership coach. I do a lot of work
with ergs, specifically for women's groups, four people of color.
(30:04):
And so when I was talking to these ergs was
right around the time of the executive orders and dismantling
all of the ergs literally happening at exactly the same time.
And there was a moment where well, one, of course,
like I was outraged, and I also went to victim mode.
I felt personally victimized by this in the way that
so many people do. And I was like, okay, but
(30:26):
if I stay in victim mode, they win.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
Right.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
If I stay in victim mode, this work doesn't get
into the hands of the people that need it, and
they win. And I was like, okay, I have to
find the ways, the different ways to get this work
into people's hands. Because I had organizations that I had
spoken to at the end of twenty twenty four and
they're like, okay, we'll buy two hundred books for this conference.
We'll buy five hundred books for this talk. And I
was like great. And then literally in February, I had
them calling me being like, we can't take your books,
(30:50):
find some other place to donate them, like we can't
have your books in our four walls. And so then
I had to get really agile about Okay, well, what
are the other pockets and spaces that I can find
to get this work out? And that's my invitation for
my clients too, Right, if we can't do it in
the four walls, what are the other ways and what
are the other spaces and places we can get this
work out? Because the work doesn't stop necessary.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
I'm really sorry that that happened. So how did you
pivot or did you pivot in your strategy? Because I
know for a lot of authors, getting those you know,
getting those speaking opportunities and getting corporations to make these
big orders is is like a key part of success.
Speaker 2 (31:30):
So then I looked for community groups. I looked for
the women's groups, the you know, I did a group,
I did a talk for the Arab American Association of Bankers. Right,
I looked for all of the spaces in the pockets
of where my people were. And sometimes there were twelve
people in a room versus two hundred people in a room,
and it required more energy and effort from me. But
(31:51):
I also think I probably got more nourishment back being
in those rooms than I ever would have gotten in
the five hundred person room. And so you know, there
definitely was a rub in the beginning, and I think
that it all works out the way that it's supposed to.
And I was worried, like I'm a chronic illness early,
so I was worried. I was like, Okay, am I
going to be able to lift this?
Speaker 1 (32:11):
Right?
Speaker 2 (32:11):
This is asking more of me? But I ended up
getting so much more back being in those rooms that
I think I think it worked out.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
I mean, damn, your book is I mean, it's not giving.
It doesn't have any of like the trigger words that
I feel like it would get, you know, deleted by
the government these days, Like I talk.
Speaker 2 (32:27):
About white supremacy culture, like I opened the.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Book, but you got to open the book and read
the words to get to that good stuff, you know
what I mean, Like, I don't think the thing a
lot of people in power are like opening books and
looking at the words, you know, Like I can't imagine
being on a banned book list because it's so so
look it's cute, it's all it's pig.
Speaker 2 (32:50):
No.
Speaker 1 (32:50):
But I mean obviously, I mean, since then it's become
a best seller, right, you had the was it the US?
You made the US to USA today bestsellers list. Congratulations
that I know that doesn't matter, but it matters.
Speaker 2 (33:04):
I thought was like, it'll move my flywheels. So I
was working really hard not to come from a core
wound with this book, right, So I was like, you know,
rejection wound. Right, So I was working really hard not
to come from that place. And so my thought process
with the best seller list was like, if I hit
the best seller list, more people will see it, more
people see it, more people will buy it, more people
will recommend it, more people will buy it, and round
(33:25):
and round and round will go.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
I don't know that it's worked out that way, but
I'm glad that I was able to shift my come
from and not come from a place of pain.
Speaker 1 (33:34):
Yeah. Oh I yeah, I girl. The things I've heard
about like how how to think about the lists and
how to and these like these rewards or these like
trappings of success and list should I mean, I signed
with a big podcast network in March, and even then,
I know, I'm like, just because you get the thing
that looks like success, it doesn't always end up being
(33:54):
the thing. And and I'm like, dang, I would like
to learn a different lesson, Like I'd like now that
I've had enough of those, like the accolade, like the
like the trapping of successes does not always lead to
the big whatever breakthrough moment that you're expecting. I would
like one of those. I think I've had enough disappointments,
like by now, you know what I mean, Like, can
(34:15):
we get some like wins that actually are like a win, Yeah,
like game changers for you.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
That's my intention for you, that you get some game
changing wins.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Yeah, it's just you know, And I think it goes
back to like being an entrepreneur as a woman and
a woman of color, like and I in the book
that I'm working on, and I think you do a
great job of this too. There's this relationship with like
data and statistics and the reality the reality check that
you want people to like be grounded in, you know,
like a realistic expectation. But at the same time, the
(34:47):
expectations for us are usually on the lower side. And
my my mission is always to like find the optimism
and find the but what if there's an exception? And
what if you are the exception? To find that expectation,
And there's no way I can continue that without that
community around me echoing it in times when I start
(35:07):
to doubt myself. And with that, I want to talk
to you about your community and as you have had
these you know, different chapters of your career and you
know in your coaching, how have you gone about building
a support system for yourself to carry yourself through this
and how important has that been for you?
Speaker 2 (35:26):
Yes, I want to say something's your last point and
then I promise I'll answer this. Okay, But I was
when I was writing the book, what I learned is
that less than three percent of books sell more than
a thousand copies. And then I was looking at book
sales for my particular identity and just like publish authors
that are Arab it's like less than one percent of
published authors in the US are Middle Eastern, And I
(35:48):
was like, I had, like it is my mission to
beat the odds, Like this is unjust like we need
to take up space, right, And so I think sometimes
that can also be the fuel and the fire, and
I think it's really important that we find our ways
to really shift the numbers and the data.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
Just going back too and congratulations, yes, amen, And I
know it was so much work.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Yeah, And I'm here to support you every step of
the journey because it is wild.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
I need it.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
Community has supported me so big when I had my
book launch party and I took the stage and I
was telling people like, you know, I'm so happy to
be here. But literally, none of this is possible without community, right,
Like we are made of the people in the rooms.
We are made of the people that will have us
on the podcast, we are made of the editors that
say yes to us, and so none of this is
possible alone. And I think it's so important to remind
(36:37):
ourselves of that the toxic individualism is part of painful ambition, right,
that we have to do it all ourselves and nobody
is helping us, and that we're self made, right, nobody
is self made. We are made of people in these rooms,
and I just think it's so important that we remember that,
that we give gratitude for that, that we pour into
those people in the same way that they're pouring into us.
But I had all different kinds of communities supporting me
(36:58):
throughout the three year journey, from my best friend who
literally was such an important emotional support, like bless her,
she heard some wild parts of the story, like she's
incredible to my amazing editor, and my amazing agent, and
my family, my sisters. I have many sisters, and I'm
just grateful for each of them.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
How many?
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Well, okay, four from the same parents, so we're five.
And then my dad got remarried and has two more girls,
so I'm technically one of seven girls.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Wow, I only have one sister, and we're just like
clinging to each other, like like those orders that you
see in the mains, like holding on for dear life.
That's And where do you fall in the birth order?
Speaker 2 (37:35):
I'm two of five?
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Oh number two? Okay, so you're older but not the
oldest yea. But yeah, do you feel like your dynamic
and your siblings, Like how has that helped you? Or
I mean it's offered you that support, But how is
it being one of the older children? Is that part
of the drive? And like that gives you that sense
of like I'm going to be a boss.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
It's interesting. So like we're mixed, and I think like
being mixed is a very particular lived experience, and so
having these five other humans that are navigating something similar,
I think is so so important. Just like even now,
like I'm noticing hormonal shifts in my life, but I
can't always go to my mom right because like, we're
not exactly the same, and so having these having sisters
(38:17):
who have a similar lived experience to me, I feel like,
is really really helpful. But I talk about this in
the introduction of my book Growing Up. My older sister
was really sick with type one diabetes, and so I
kind of assumed the older sister role. So though I'm
number two, I really feel like older sister vibes, but
then also sometimes feel like the middle child, and so
we have a separate middle sister group chat. Sorry, older
(38:40):
and youngest sister.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
You get to be so you get the best of
both worlds.
Speaker 2 (38:44):
I get the best of all worlds.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Yeah, exactly, middle sister group chat.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
Okay, we're like anybody else feel invisibleized This week.
Speaker 1 (38:55):
I think I'm coming into my middle sister. I'm like
the oldest because I also have a blended fan family
or four. First, I have two older siblings, but I'm
the oldest of my dad's kids, a boy and a girl.
So I feel like the older sibling but also very
much a middle sibling. These days, I'm just like and
Peggy over here is kind of how I feel like. Yeah,
(39:17):
so shout out to the middle kids. Get that middle
kid chet girling.
Speaker 2 (39:21):
It's very helpful.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
It would just be me. There's not that many of
us sevens a lot. Do you and what kinds of
career paths have your siblings taken? Do they come to
you for advice or is it like, oh, that's amana,
I'm not gonna you know. I was there when she
was into backstreet boys or whatever it was.
Speaker 2 (39:38):
They came to you for advice sometimes. My older sister
is a lawyer, and I think she's had like a
bit of a love hate relationship with it, and so
there's definitely been seasons where she's like, I want to
be a stylist. What would that look like? And I'm like,
let's talk about it. And then my sister number four
is a social worker and therapist and when she was
(40:00):
navigating that change, was exploring what it could look like
to set up her own business. And so so I think,
you know, they've seen me in all seasons of my life. Right,
so whether they take me quote unquote as seriously as
my clients take me, I think is a different story.
But I think that they know they have a resource
here if they need one.
Speaker 1 (40:17):
Good, big sis good, big sis, that's all right, bixits energy,
what's your How do you define like the idea of
scarcity in a career in a career path, and how
does that play into how does that play into the
idea of an ambition? Trap? Is that part of it?
Speaker 2 (40:34):
It is? Scarcity is a big part of it, right,
And I think scarcity is manufactured by the dominant in
group to maintain their power, and then it causes fighting
in the in group, right because we feel like there's
only space for one woman, one woman of color, one
person with a disability, one queer person. And so I
think actually scarcity is a tool of the oppressor.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
And is it that?
Speaker 2 (40:58):
So?
Speaker 1 (40:59):
But how does that how do we get how do
we get over it? How do you get over that
sense of like there's only so much and if they're
not getting it, then I can't either. Or if I
get it, then that's all there is? Like how do
you get over that?
Speaker 2 (41:12):
Because I think that's zero sum thinking, right, If I
get it, then there's none left for anybody else. Like
if I get a book deal, another woman of color
can't get a book deal.
Speaker 1 (41:19):
No.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
When I was actually negotiating my book deal, it was
really important that I negotiated because I was, like, the
advances we get tend to be lower than white women,
and so we need to expand the bands for anybody
that identifies similarly to us. And so I think that
me taking up space and makes space for other people, right,
We're actually just carving out a path, and so I
(41:40):
think that's one of the most important mindset shifts that
we can make. But we can internalize. Right, So scarcity
is perpetuated by the dominant in group, but we can
internalize that and weaponize it against ourselves and tell ourselves, well,
there is only space for this one person, and so
I'm not going to get it or I have to
fight this person out right, But I actually think collaboration
can be even more helpful and even more supportive, so
(42:00):
we can make more space. So like, if you and
I negotiate together, then I think that we can both
win together. Rushia Katulshian, do you know her?
Speaker 1 (42:09):
Oh? Do I know her? Oh? Yeah, It's crazy how
we know all the same people.
Speaker 2 (42:13):
And I feel which she's just a bay book coming
out Uncompete exactly. Shout out to her book Uncompete, which
is all about that. And I think is such an
important and necessary work and interestingly so we've created a
little group with her, me and four other authors, mostly
women of color, to talk about, well, what are the
learnings that we've all had, and how can we support
(42:34):
each other so everybody can have a win, Like, just
because you're at the conference doesn't mean I can't be
at the conference the next year.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yeah, it's it's a question that I get is like uh,
And especially it's one of the reasons why I created
the Mandy money Makers because when I was doing those
free coaching sessions, a theme that came up as like
isolation and feeling alone, and I just wanted to kind
of at least create a space where like I could
help counteract that in some way, shape or form. It's
not the only you don't have to like join a
(43:03):
you know, a professional community like that, but just meeting
one person at an event or online and asking the question,
like my five year old and like ask if they
want to play, it's okay. But as an adult it's
sometimes I don't know, it's like more it's more intimidating.
But I have found like nine times out of ten
(43:24):
they're just love that you asked and the answer is
usually oh my god, yes, please, I need a friend.
How's that been for you? Similar?
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Very similar?
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Right?
Speaker 2 (43:34):
I think it definitely feels awkward. It's not as natural
as it was on the playground, But I don't mind
being I've liked come to embrace my awkward and so
I'll just be like, I feel like we should be friends,
like can we hang out? And one of my dear
friends actually initiated this for me, like sort of invited
me into that because a couple of years ago she
kind of she asked me on a friend date. She
(43:54):
was like, you know, we've seen each other in these rooms,
we kind of move in the same circles, Like, can
we just have a friend date? And then it was
so funny because we had this friend date and it
actually felt like a first date where I was like,
do you want to sit on the inside? Should I
sit on the inside? I love your dress? Can we
share fries? Like it was yeah, that's precaus, But I think,
like make the awkward ask, because nine times out of
(44:15):
tenant you said it works out beautifully and then you
have this amazing friend that you wouldn't.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
Have had you both like I go home and I'll
like text I'm like, this was so great, thank you
so much, Let's do it again? Or like should I
wait till the next day? Should I text now? Is
that too thirsty? Yeah? I think you just got to
be cringe, Like stop being afraid of being cringe and
just be cringe. All right. So obviously everyone listening, be
(44:40):
a family, needs to go get the ambition trap. I
wanted to ask, just to like wrap up the conversation,
how do you hope, like, what's the key takeaway from
the book that you hope that anyone who's reading it
kind of closes the book and they move forward with
this feeling inside or this idea that bost.
Speaker 2 (45:00):
So essentially what I'm saying in the book is that
ambition is neutral and natural. It's for everybody. At its core,
I define it as a desire for more life. So
that can't be right for some people and wrong for others.
But we need to really shift the cultural narrative around ambition,
which is that the framework on the pivot from painful
to purposeful ambition. And so my invitation for people is
to find their right relationship with ambition, not that instrumentalizing hustle,
(45:23):
painful scarcity driven version, but that generative why connected purposeful ambition,
and it's going to look different than what we've seen
in the world because what we've see in around ambition
has been largely dysfunctional and doesn't support people with non
dominant identities. But it needs to look different. And so
my invitation is that you show up in your big ambitions,
that you take care of yourself, because the only trap
(45:45):
is believing that our dreams aren't possible, and I refuse
to let any of us fall into that.
Speaker 1 (45:50):
Thank you, Alm Gonna al Taie for joining me on
Brown Ambition. Thanks for thanks for the pre show chat.
I needed that, and Brown Ambition listeners be a fan.
Please go pick up her book. I'm gonna. Where can
they find you online? How can we support your on ig?
I know that.
Speaker 2 (46:05):
Thank you so much. You can find me on Instagram
at Amina Altai. I'm sure spelling will be in the
show notes my website. I'm at Altai dot com and
you can get the book everywhere you buy books. If
they don't have it in your local bookstore, you can
just ask that they order it.
Speaker 1 (46:18):
And are you taking new clients? Should we open that
up for BA fam.
Speaker 2 (46:22):
Yes, I would love that I always have to plase
on my roster for amazing humans. So if you feel called,
please connect please.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
All right, so, I'm sure we'll link to your websites.
People can go find you if they want to coach.
But first and foremost, get the book. It'll be a
great entry point. Maybe get the book and then you
know that'll make you even better client for a'manna afterward.
All right, thank you so much for taking the time,
ba Fam. Until next time, take care, bye bye, okay
(46:50):
va fam. Thank you so much for listening to this
week's show. I want to shout out to our production team, Courtney,
our editor, Carla, our fearless leader for ideas to launch productions.
I want to shout out my assistant Lauda Escalante and
Cameron McNair for helping me put the show together. It
is not a one person project, as much as I
(47:12):
have tried to make it so these past ten years.
I need help, y'all, and thank goodness I've been able
to put this team around me to support me on
this journey. And to y'all, BA Fam, I love you
so so so so much. Please rate, review, subscribe, make
sure you sign up to the newsletter to get all
the latest updates on upcoming episodes, our ten year anniversary
(47:33):
celebrations to come, and until next time, talk to you
soon via Buy
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com