There it is again… Like Clock-Burke

Cheryl’s journey continues as she’s joined by Dr. Jenn Mann, one of the most well known psychotherapists in the country. Dr. Jenn’s path of healing involves making a list of triggers, so you can control them before they control you. But as it turns out, reading her own list of triggers…is one of Cheryl’s triggers.

Look, no one said this was going to be easy…but we’re in too deep to turn back now.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
This is Burke in the game and I heard radio
podcast and you're back. Uncle Sam Ruben is in the
house party people. What didn't you miss us? I missed
you terribly, but I was very interested in, uh progress
and or what progress has been made with with that list?

(00:27):
You have this sort of check off list. What have
you checked off? We'll ask away what what specifically are
you curious about? Well, I mean, are we making do
you think we're making forward progress? I know we're getting
a lot of good advice. What are we I'm making
forward progress? I'm definitely like I I actually just noticed
it this morning that I when I woke up this morning,

(00:48):
I was like, oh, I found um a sense of
peace of being alone and like, I think for me, Sam,
it's so easy to think like, okay, so is you
ready to I know that I'm making those steps to
changing the pattern that I tend to be attracted to
when it comes to men. So, for example, I talked

(01:10):
about this a couple of weeks ago or a week
ago on this podcast, where there was a guy that
I was attracted to and vice versa. He was really
flirting with me hardcore at a shoot that I was
at and he was the d P and East Coast
kind of loud. I don't know why I like tall
East Coast loud boys, but I do. There's something about

(01:31):
him that makes him like rough and tough. Um. But
then I was busting his balls a little bit and
I was like, so he dated somebody that we both
obviously know, me and you meaning Sam, you wouldn't know
her if I mentioned her name, but I'm not going
to do that anyway. And he's in his forties, and
I asked, so are you, like have you ever gotten married?

(01:51):
And he asked like, how are you doing? I said,
I'm going through a divorce blah blah. He goes, no,
I haven't yet. And I'm like, oh, that's something in
my stomach. Was like, that's a red fla. Why hasn't
he never been married? And then I asked, so when
it comes to like what are you working on, Like
do you have a constant like job or do you
like do one offs like this a lot? He goes, yeah,
I've never really had a constant like I just do
one off like right away. My another red flag is

(02:14):
like noncommittal, noncommittal, noncommittal. Anyway, the more I ignored him,
the more. He was like, like aggressively to the point
where hair and makeup were like, Cheryl, this guy is
freaking obsessed with you. He never asked me out. I
think I wasn't giving that vibe, right, but I know
that if I would have been a little bit more
open and maybe less judgmental, he could have. But I

(02:35):
know he's a red flag. I just know it in
my heart. Now that's progress, Sam, alright, So it's progress
of keeping of boundaries I don't think I've ever had.
I haven't had boundaries before. That's progress, Okay, alright. So
then the only thing, and just as your objective of

(02:57):
friendly and loving uncle would have there been any value
and even just a coffee date or something too to
further confirm your red flags or door number two. Uh,
maybe that there was something of quality there. Yeah, you know,
I would have if he would have asked, but he
never did. But that could have been because of my
body language. Mind you. I also had horrible news that

(03:19):
same day, um when it comes to my divorce. But
obviously I can't talk to details, but that really messed
up my whole rest of day. So I was he
was hanging out in the parking lot and I thought
maybe for sure he wanted to, but I was not.
I was so pissed at the email I received so
well then that that that sort of takes you out

(03:41):
of it for that time, alright, So that that's all right,
that's some progress. What about other steps you hope to
be taking, because we gotta I mean again, your house
is lovely, but we've got to get you out of
your house. Well, I've been out, so I went out
with a few friends and then I noticed that I
wanted to drink again after the hour that after like,
I was like, oh, it's like I turned to a pumpkin,

(04:01):
like or I should be, because if not, I'll be
holding um a vodka soda. So I've realized that when
I'm out with friends, as soon as they start to
look tipsy or if they're starting to get a little
obnoxious in a good way, I have fomo, which is
fear of missing out, and I want to also join
the club. So what I did was I dropped them

(04:21):
off at the next place after the dinner, and I
went home, and I was really proud of myself. So
that's another active service towards me. You know, you should
be that that to me is extraordinary progress. You should
be proud of yourself because to me, that opens the
door of being able to go and knowing, you know,
knowing when to say when. So that's I think that's
tremendous progress. I went to Joe Quoi's movie premiere last night.

(04:44):
I've been out. I've been out too much. Actually it's
too too much, alright, kidding A tiny a tiny sidebar
that was the movie. Didn't stay for it because I
had to work. Okay, that happens. But also Joe Cooi
was on Filipino time. He was late. He was late
to his own premiere. Oh yes, and there is such

(05:04):
a thing. There's such there's such a thing as Filipino time,
which is very late. Well you you know the I
know he and Chelsea are no longer together, but you know,
he talked about you know what, I say this all
the time. I quote unquote worked it. And I was like,
how long did you work it? They said I worked
it for fourteen years. I believe it. I believe it

(05:27):
a pretty long time. That is I I do remember
I back in the day, I actually hung out um
with through withual friends with Chelsea, and I remember Joe
quoi being there at this pool party, I think in
her house in Malibu, and he was. He's right, He's
not lying at all. But I what I love though
about him is that, you know, we're Filipino. We're getting
recognized for our talent and um and the arts. And

(05:48):
I love that and I love how he represents us.
But any who, what is going on with you since
you got off that Disney cruizy look extra tan? I
when I've been doing a lot of dad's Off the summer,
my son and I went on a boy scout high
adventure and as dull as that might sound, it was
really interesting. So a twelve day trip backpacking and kayaking.

(06:11):
Have you ever been to the San Juan Islands in
Washington State. It's a very normal tip of the good
old USA. It's absolutely beautiful. And you know, here's the thing,
somebody like you who is naturally fit this kayaking, I
think he loved. It's just unbelievably beautiful. But are you
a camping type person or do you have to spend
the night at the end. I'm a glamping type person

(06:34):
right right. Well, for the backpacking we did, all you know,
this was scouts and dads and moms all on our
own backpacks. It was a lot of stuff, but the
kayaking was done with an outfitter, so they did all
the cooking, and they did kind of all the hard
stuff but great. And then the one thing I'm it
was really nice. And then the one thing that I'm

(06:56):
adjusting to now is you know, on any given day
what you and I are used to. I've got the
phone here, here's the first time I've opened the laptop
in almost two weeks, and so I'm you know, it's
the re emergence of all that. Wow. Okay, So quickly
before we moved to our guests. Dr jen Man, who's
a certified therapist. You've spen on v H one's um

(07:18):
a couple of therapy for a long time. She's done
a few seasons of that. She also did like a
little pop up over at Dancing with the Stars. I
guess as seasons ago. I don't remember clearly. It was
back in my drinking days, but she did a segment
about like the psychology behind movement, which I find fascinating.
I tend to like want these therapists to mother me,
like I just get gravitate towards therapists but before we

(07:42):
get to her, what is the trigger for you in
relationships like that? Really, like, what is one thing that
triggers you? I'm actually curious, Okay, I tell you what.
That's very interesting. I I think I'm one of who
avoids conflict, and I think the real trigger for me
are flashes of anger. And I remember, um, I was
married and then I was no longer married and I

(08:04):
was dating, and I was dating somebody who was who
was literally so gorgeous, people like fell down. I mean,
it was just and it was actually funny because I
never Yeah, it was like the cs parted. And it
was interesting to me because I think I've always gone

(08:24):
out with her married to attractive people, but this was
at a kind of a different level, and it was
just it was interesting. And I'm not a trophy type
person or anything, but it was like, Wow, people do
treat you differently, you know, if you if there's a
super model with you. And so anyway, she had been divorced.
We had had three or four fantastic dates, and then

(08:45):
I was in the car and her ex husband called
and I said, you know, g you know, like like
I would give anything not to listen to this call. Anyway.
She's like, no, no, this will just be a quick,
you know, scheduling thing whatever. And they just had the
most horrible, awful, screamy, terrible fight, and I just knew,

(09:09):
you know what, I can't whatever. I don't know. I
don't know both sides of the argument. I don't know
anything about it. But I can't go forward here. She
decided to pick up the call. Yeah, and I remember
that so vividly. Maybe she decided to pick up the
call because it's like, well, he probably should see the
totality of my whole world. And it was like, oh

(09:29):
my god. Oh, I'm literally getting chills thinking about it.
And so I so I have been accused of being
an underreactor and have been accused of not having you know,
a temper, which sometimes can be healthy, I suppose, but
I can't. He's like just big flashes of anchor, just oh,
I can't take it. So do you know what attachment

(09:51):
style you are? There's either anxious attachment, avoidant attachment, or um,
what's it called secure attachment? God, I'm not those exact definitions.
When you say that, I feel secure attachment sounds like
the one that would fit, But I don't really know
what you're talking about. Okay, all right, good to know
bry Uncle Sam. You're like uncle Sam, Uncle Sam. Some

(10:15):
people love you, some people don't. Um, you're the best.
Thank you so much. All right, I'll check in with
you next week. Really excited about all your progress. Congratulations
to you. Thank you so much. Alright, great catching up
with you, Sam, And let's get to our guests. Dr
Jen Man Hi, Dr Jen. Hey, how are you? I'm good?

(10:46):
How are you? I am good? So good. I know
that we've worked together. I'm Dancing with the Stars. I
don't even remember who my partner was though. Do you
remember if I heard his name, I would know, Um, athletes,
What do you look like? He had dark hair, olive skin,

(11:07):
adorable sports player actor? Who else was? Who else did
you see? Because it was part of the dancing So guys,
so Dr Jen and I go have have history. She
was on Dancing with the Stars doing a segment, right,
So the segment was about, um, the psychology behind dancing, right, yeah,
well it was about kind of like preparing your nerves
for dancing. Got it? Okay? Remember who else you saw?

(11:29):
Because I'm still trying to figure it as probably when
I was back in my drinking day. So my memory
is a little foggy. But you know what, don't even
worry about it anyway. I love it. Okay, So we
definitely have history together right as far as Dancing with
the Stars go. But let's not talk about the past.
I have so many freaking questions for you because I
stalked you, as I do with all my guests. But

(11:52):
I definitely relate to everything as far as um attachment
style goes. I'm reading the book attached at the moment.
I've been in quick I guess summary therapy, huge advocate
since the Little Girl. I have a cognitive therapist, and
then I have a Semitic practitioner, and um I I

(12:12):
love this stuff and I really am. I'm in this
part of my life where I'm so curious. I'm like
a sponge. So tell me everything now, no kidding, Tell
a little bit about yourself first to our listeners, Dr
Jen Absolutely, my name is Dr Jen Man. I have
been a licensed therapist for about three decades. Most people

(12:33):
know me from each one Couples Therapy with Dr Jen
or v H one Family Therapy with Dr Jen. A
lot of people also know me from my books I've
got like four best selling books or my column and
in Style magazine has been running for many years. And
then there's some people who know me from my radio
show that was on Scarry sect Um called the Doctor

(12:54):
Jen Show. So if my name sounds familiar, my voice
here right now, that's who you are, Jen with two
ends um. And if you know her from Dancing with
the Stars, she did a segment on the psychology behind dancing,
which is fascinating because I've always said dancing has saved
my life, and now I know why, being why through
my somatic experiencing practitioner. Right, so I never knew what

(13:18):
I never understood, Like when I was a teenager competing,
I never understood why I would walk in depressed to
rehearsal and then just like I feel amazing, right, And
so now I believe that there is a direct correlation
when it comes to mental health and movement. I am
actually hopefully soon launching a program called Body Language, where
I have my somatic practitioner involved as well, where we

(13:41):
just literally step not step by step, movement by movement,
we talk about what like how are you feeling? What
do you feel when your body was sensations come up
in your body. And I find that so helpful for
someone like me, because it's really hard to put language
behind the feelings. Sometimes I love that. And I also
have a dance background. I did with me to mastics.

(14:03):
Is that stuff with the ribbons and hoops clubs, road
ball ribbons? Yeah, the ribbons for sure. I was on
the national team for five years. I performed exhibitions in
the eighty four Olympics. And I'm a big believer that
if you, especially if you have movement in your past,
if you're someone who in elementary school you played soccer,

(14:23):
you did dance, you were on the swim team, and
now in your adult years you were not to a movement,
I believe it's kind of built into our wiring that
we need that. And I also one of the things
I see a lot, especially right now since the pandemic,
is the importance of people's need to connect with things

(14:43):
that light them up and bring them back to the
healthiest parts of who they are. And I really believe
that movement is an important part of that. Well everybody.
And this is why I'm so um, I guess hesitant
to say steps because people get intimidated by dance the
word dance, but movement, we I'll do it. You could
be you know, in a wheelchair you're moving, you can
move your fingers, you know, or there's so many different

(15:06):
ways of moving. It doesn't have to be salsa dancing.
And I think that through that there is a therapeutic
benefits for sure. Um, I'm not a licensed therapist. Ovisly
you are, but yes, good, yeah, okay, so moving forward,
I guess you know as far as okay, you talked
about like what what lights you up now when it

(15:28):
comes to two people, a couple married or not married,
just like in relationships in general. Right, let's just cut
to the chase. Why do people cheat? I believe that.
And by the way, the study show this is that
the number one reason why people cheat is a lack
of connection. And people typically think, oh, it's because of sex.

(15:52):
But there's a guy named m Gary Newman who I
talked about a lot in my book The Relationship. I'm
actually reading, Oh thank you. He gave me a wonderful endorsement.
I think he is just one of the greatest researchers
when it comes to relationships. And what he found is
that he did one of the longest studies of couples
who cheat, and he looked at five hundred men who

(16:13):
have cheated, and then he did five women. He studied
specifically heterosexual relationships, but in my clinical experience it all
translates to same sex relationships as well. And what he
found was that were men, it was I think nineties
seven percent of time for women percent at the time
that the reason why they cheated was either a lack

(16:35):
of emotional connection or a combination of a lack of
emotional and sexual connection. So I'm a big believer that
connection is really the key to infidelity prevention and that
we tend to like I I remember a million years
ago I dated a guy like post college and he
bought cars and he would fix them up and then

(16:57):
sell them. And he had this one car in particular
that he and he spent months and months and put
all this money and time and energy into this car,
and at the end of it he was like, I
don't want to sell this because I put so much
time and energy into it. Our relationships are the same
when we yeah, there will look, there will always be

(17:17):
someone who is hotter, perkier, has a better ass, has
your boobs, like whatever it is fill in the blank
has a bigger penis like than than you. But where
you have the home court advantage is that connection because
that is something that is not a quick replacement, and

(17:38):
it's also something that we all know. You don't develop
that overnight, and when you've invested in the relationship and
the connection, it's something you don't want to lose but
to see. So that's the thing is that people who
feel that they connected, let's say with that other person, okay,
that they think they're falling in love with or that
they are having a relationship with, um, it is not

(18:01):
a real connection because there is that is that honeymoon phase, right,
So that is that oh my god, you start to
have that butterflies. And I think people equate that to love.
And that's because of movies like The Notebook, which are
just horrible for our society, right, Like it's like that
is not love, it's fake, fake, fake, fake. But um,
it's those moments like I've seen it firsthand. My mom

(18:22):
and real dad divorced when I was two, and I
saw my mom go up and down, up and down,
up and down. My mom would make sure that I
continue to develop a relationship with him. So she would
make sure that I would visit, and which means that
she would come and I saw. I was like I
always thought, maybe my mom's still in love with him,
and then with my stepdad, who is a lovely man.
You know, it's just like, but that is love. This

(18:43):
is what we all should strive for because it's not boring.
And I used to label it as boring, like I
don't want to be in a like stagnant boring, just
like the relationship, you know, but that is actually the
beauty of a partnership, right, But it also takes maturity
and wisdom and for some sobriety. So I understand that

(19:06):
and to to value it. And yeah, and also I
think at the beginning, a lot of the times people think,
oh my god, the butterfly thing. That means I'm in love.
But that butterfly thing doesn't. It's all can mean. It's
that there is chemistry. Um in some cases it can
mean it is dangerous for you. Like there are some

(19:29):
people who I work with where when they get the
butterflies and they get really excited, it's actually a warning sign.
This person is very familiar to that un parent that
you once had and your unconscious is aligning with his
or her unconscious and this is not healthy for you know,
and I'm guilty of it, which is why I've been
slowly I'm not even getting back into the dating world

(19:52):
because I know that if I because I am that client,
you know where it's like I am an adrenaline junkie,
as they say, but I can find that same feeling
something doing something else, not playing or resting with my
own um heart or my abound, my vulnerability basically, right,
So I think it's very important that we I am
guilty of making up this amazing General Hospital episode in

(20:16):
my head, believing it, and then when the person finally
texts an emoji, I'm like, oh my god. And when
he doesn't, I'm like, oh my god, he hates me.
What did I say? What did I do? What did
I And I'm like, I don't want to fall back
into that. I don't want my mood or my day
to be dictated by a freaking emoji. So like, I

(20:37):
need to then retrain my brain, which I'm in the
process of, and learn that nothing outside of me should
make me feel that way, right like in that sense,
but is that that black or right? I am so
far from it. But that is my pattern because of
the maybe the sexual molestation I went through when I

(20:57):
was a little girl, I had no real father figure
except my stepdad obviously came into play, but after those
very crucial years of when it really means a lot
to have a you know, a nice or a good
father figure and mother figure, and you know what I
mean absolutely. And also the other thing with that kind

(21:18):
of um feeling that you get when you're waiting for
the emoji is that you're focusing in all of that
is and you're obviously not alone like a lot of
a lot of your listeners and viewers are gonna yeah,
because I think it's very easy to slip into that.
But also what happens in that is your focus is

(21:40):
on what does he think of me? And when you're
in the initial dating kind of period, you should be
looking at what do I think of him? Is this
person incredible with me? What are the warning signs? Are
there any red flags that are going on? But when

(22:00):
we are so hungry for the validation, the connection, the
you know, fill in the blank, whatever it is we
didn't get from childhood and being scared to be your
authentic self because you're scared that if you are, or
let's say you were on that last date and he
doesn't text you like, what's wrong with me? What's wrong

(22:21):
with me? It's like it's never really what's wrong with me,
it's like what's wrong with him or that her? Not
what's wrong? Right, you can't compare and look, Sometimes it's
what is wrong with this person? And sometimes you go
on a date and someone is clearly pathological. You're like,
there is something wrong this because of personality, you disorder.

(22:43):
This person has some issue that would make for a
terribly unhealthy, horrible relationship. But then there are other times
where you go out with someone who is perfectly lovely
and you're just like, we're just not compatible, or the
chemistry isn't there. And sometimes it takes time to develop chemistry,
but other times it just isn't there, no matter how

(23:03):
tricky the person is, which is why I believe in
zoom dates. Maybe first because he's going to dinner with
somebody is a huge commitment. Really, it's like that takes hours.
And nowadays, if you're using that dating app, you never
know if he's a killer or you know, I'm just
making that up. Pretty sure they did background checks, but
well they don't. I mean, like, look, I think that

(23:24):
it's it is important to make sure that when when
you are going on a date, that you want to
do the Google search, you want to kind of see
do you have any mutual friends and if you don't
hire a private investigator. Yeah, well absolutely, But also before
you put in the investment in that go to dinner

(23:49):
in a public place, don't get with him like all.
That's like really part of self care, part of having
self esteem is also knowing that we are worth taking
these kind of protective measures to take care of our
and that show self respect as well to the other person.
Um okay, quickly, just shifting back to the original question

(24:12):
of why do men cheat? Now, is it true? Because
John Gottman, um he you may know, you definitely know him,
but you don't want to explain to the listener to
who he is. But he says that a hundred percent
of the time he has um men leave let's say
their marriage or their relationship because they have found they

(24:32):
go to somebody else. Is that true? Like they have
they he said, I wouldn't say a hundred percent, but
I would say, like I like to rever like the
occasional outlier. But I in my experience clinically for you know,
three decades, I it's highly unusual for a man to

(24:56):
leave a relationship without someone lined up. What I see
is that it typically takes men longer to attach, but
once they attach, they attach for longer and then they
need that attachment. So it's unusual for a man to
go from a marriage to I'd rather be alone. So

(25:20):
that actually where's women? I see it a lot more. Yeah, no,
I hear you, And you want to explain to our
listeners who John Gottman is really quick? Um, John Gottman
is this absolutely amazing researcher and he can predict divorce
with something like nine or ninety and accuracy. And John
Gottman what he does is he puts couples in these

(25:41):
kind of apartments basically with one way mirrors, and he
has his team of people who monitor every word out
of their mouth, their heart rate, their blood pressure, everything,
so he can tell you kind of what fights are
going to lead to divorce, what the path like. It's
he it's like it's like big brother, you guys, but

(26:03):
like he's doing a lab. It's it's in his lab
and he follows these couples for years. Yeah, I mean
his his research is some of the best relationship research
that's ever been done. And and that's where I so yeah,
and he said a hundred percent, And so that actually
made me change my perspective. Like a lot of people

(26:24):
may think women are very codependent, or they need to
get under somebody before they or in order to get
over somebody else, but really maybe it's also equal or
the same or who knows, But men are also very
much like I don't know any of my straight friends
that are men that are like, I'm just gonna work
on me and learn to love me. Yeah, and look

(26:47):
and at the same time, look, I can't tell you
how many times I have told women in my practice
or on one of my shows, you need to spend
one year by yourself, do not date for one year,
and they haven't been able to do so, you know,
I think that that that we have a lot of
anxiety as a culture and fear around being alone. Yes,

(27:08):
I thought that there are a lot of negative associations
that really need to be worked through because I think
that if you don't know you can be alone, you
are far more likely to pick an unhealthy relationship, and
once you're in it, you can't get out because if
you can't be alone, you're not someone who's gonna be like,

(27:28):
you know what, who needs us? I'd rather be on
my own, like I love being by myself, Like I'm
not going to put up with this crap. Instead, you're
more going to stay. Um, I agree, And I'm actually
going through this right now. I wasn't very Um, I
guess I wasn't great at being alone, and now I
am enjoying every single minute of it. But I also

(27:49):
know what you just had said, like I need to
I'm never gonna love myself a hundred percent even, right,
but I need to love myself more more and continue
to put me first. Learn about what my boundaries are,
learn about what I want in men, learn the red flags,
and learn about Okay, what are my triggers in that sense,

(28:11):
Like what do I normally do in a relationship that
I don't think is necessarily what I should be doing
as far as living in La La land versus okay,
what is the reality, Like, sometimes I'll get taken, I'll
get in this like cloudy mode when I'm dating men. Yes,
and I'm trying and when you say, like, okay, there's

(28:33):
red flags. See with me, I get so clouded. And
maybe this is why millionaire matchmaker Patti Stanger said you
have to date multiple men. I've never done that before,
but probably this is the reason. Right, I love her too.
She is probably referring to the fact that you're not
so because I get very consumed. As I said, I'm
an addict, and i get very um like narrow minded

(28:53):
like and I'm like laser focused, right, like all or nothing.
Let's get married tomorrow because it just feels fun. And
also you're probably someone who would rather do one thing
but do it really really well. Yeah, clearly look at
my ballroom dance career. And then it translates to your
relationships in not as as healthy way. But go back

(29:16):
just something you said, you said, I'll never love myself. Why, Well,
what I'm trying to say is I'll never like I'm
not gonna wait until I love myself a hundred percent
to date. I'm going to wait until I'm ready, right,
But like I think that there's a lot of more
there's like nine percent left to go, and but I'm
enjoying the um me being so curious and wanting to

(29:39):
be better. I just want to be better, and I
know I will be a forever work in progress, is
what I'm trying to say. Yeah, and I think that
if I were to wait till I was add percent
with like the whole self love thing, I'd probably be
sixty something until I started dating again. And I don't
see I think I need to date before then. For sure,
I agree, what hold you back from the ten percent?

(30:02):
I think I've we know the ten percent is me
loving myself. I have more to go. But I think
I'm being a harsh critic. I'm definitely being a harsh critic,
even though this is also not part of my work.
I have to learn about self talk and loving my
little you know child inside me that wants to throw
temper tantrums. But maybe that's an exaggeration. I would say

(30:23):
it's like forty six. And look, I think part of
the key, most likely for you, without really knowing you
very well, is accepting your flaws. That we are all flawed.
You're never gonna not be flawed, that's all right, And
that's the way the perfectionism and the O c D.
You know, the hangars and stuff like we I think that.

(30:46):
How do you it? Does that mean that somebody is
like trying to be perfect when they're O c D
like that? Well, look, there's some level of O c
D that is genetic, there is some that is learned behavior,
there is some that is kind of wired intest and
then there's also there's some that becomes unhealthy. And look,
having all of the same hangers in in your closet

(31:08):
and having things organized nicely can also be a great
way to be efficient. You're not searching from your closet
for things. Where it becomes unhealthy is if you can't
leave your house because you have a shirt out of place,
then it becomes unhealthy o c D. But if it's
just I really like myself organized, it's more efficient. I

(31:30):
like that just kind of makes my life go more smoothly, great,
more powered to you. That works for you, got it?
We just don't want it to become debilitated, right, Okay,
I hear you. Okay, So in your one of your
YouTube videos that I saw, I think you were doing
a talk at a college. I'm not sure, but you

(31:52):
you say that you know what what are basically what
are incoming missiles? Like, what what does that mean? And
m are there is that equivalent to red flag? Yeah, um,
you know, I talk a lot about incoming missiles, and
I do a whole um couples therapy group on a

(32:13):
couples Therapy on v H one all about incoming missiles.
And incoming missiles can come in a lot of different points.
It can be something as obvious as an ex boyfriend
or girlfriend reaches out to one of you and then
you've got a problem and there is maybe a temptation,
or maybe one of you doesn't tell the other or
or you know, that's an incoming missile, but it's someone

(32:35):
who's trying to do harm to your relationship. But sometimes
it's more kind of it appears benign, but it's harmful
to your relationship. It can be the in laws who say, oh,
we're coming and we're staying with you for three weeks.
That's an incoming missile. That's something that's probably not good
for your relationship. There's some couples for whom like that's awesome, great,

(32:56):
we can't get enough of them, But for others that's
not the ace. An incoming missile can even be something
at like not having a lock on your bedroom door,
which all couples should have if you have children and
who is coming in and out of your bedroom because
they don't know any better and they have been taught

(33:17):
about boundaries. So it can come in a lot of
different shapes or forms. It can also come in is ms.
It can be you know, any kind of addiction or
you know workahol workaholic, or you know, drug addiction, or
compulsive gamblet or acting out with sex. It can come
in a lot of different shapes and forms. So is

(33:38):
it similar to red flags, Then it's a little different
in that usually we look for red flags at the
beginning of a relationship because if we see them, it's
like we have to get out, like this, we're not
going to proceed with this relationship because a red flag
is so big, or maybe a small red flag that
it's like, okay, we gotta keep an eye on this
and see how this developed. Whereas this is something all

(34:02):
couples have incoming missiles. All like, no matter how healthy
you are, there will always be something that will try
to take away from your relationship. And it doesn't mean
there's something wrong with your relationship, but how you deal
with it and how you talk through it and how
you make boundaries is about how you protect your relationships.
So how do you deal with it? Because if let's say,
incoming missiles are happening, when you've already said I do,

(34:23):
what do you do? Well, first of all, you need
to kind of define them. You need to sit down
as a couple and talk about what feels like a
threat to the relationship, what feels like a threat to
your time together, what feels uncomfortable. And two people in
relationship don't always see it the same way. One person
maybe like, oh, yeah, look, I've been friends with that

(34:45):
X for a hundred years. I feel nothing for that
person and they're not a threat to our relationship. But
you also have to hear if your partner feels uncomfortable
with something, as long as it's not an abusive, controlling
relationship where they don't want you to have any friends,
don't want to have a support system, don't want you
talking with your family. If there are a reasonable person
and they say, look, this person makes me really uncomfortable,

(35:08):
I think it's important to respect that and to be
able to say, you know what, why don't we do
dinner with that person? Like I'd like for you to
get to know him so you can feel more comfortable
and if you still feel like he's a threat, then
let's talk about it then, but really working with our
partner to make sure that that we are honoring the
relationship and putting the relationship first and not being like

(35:31):
we're not avoiding it obviously and not um not talking
about it. I think you know, people say communications so
key and it but it really is. And if you
I think, for you know, my past, it was hard
to um the communication was no longer existent. So you know,
the therapy started and it really is retraining your brain

(35:52):
to talk about like how you're feeling as opposed to
accusing somebody and feeling like you're attacking and that and
it's self takes a lot of work, you know, learning
to take accountability. And I was doing one of your exercises,
so I mean I would like to go over it
with you to see if I would love that. Um
it's called so I wrote down my triggers, right to

(36:15):
write down like a list of my triggers. And this
is just from the top of my head at like
one in the morning this morning. UM, so you know
this is I guess this falls why so why do
you ask people to list their triggers. I guess first
we can start there. Well, it's important to know what
your triggers are in your relationships, that you can take
responsibility for your triggers because are triggers, and a lot

(36:38):
of the time people just think of like triggers like
warnings on Instagram. But in this sense, what I'm talking
about with triggers, and I talked about it more in
my book, the relationship fixed is something that your partner
says or does that sets you off. And typically there
are things that make us feel threatened in some way.
We feel insulted, we feel threatened, we feel like a

(37:02):
fear of abandonment, we feel hurt, we feel angry, and
we're reacting. And no matter how great you are, no
matter how great your relationship is, eventually we treat her
partners because to kind of digress for a moment, we
tend to pick people who if you sat down and
you made a list of all of your mother's positive

(37:26):
and negative traits, all of your father's positive negative traits,
or whoever it is that you grew up with your
primary caregivers, that we tend to pick people who have
both the positive and negative traits are usually some combinations.
So what happens is that our unconscious mind doesn't know
the difference between past, present, and future. It's always trying

(37:49):
to heal old wounds in current times. So what happened
is like, let's say, for examplet's say you had a
father who uh was alcoholic? Yes he was, and he
was also um uh I guess um ladies man. So
he could only sleep with a woman once. Isn't that crazy? Wow?

(38:11):
That he must have been very very busy fertile. Yes,
so you have dad. He was an alcoholic philanderer, so
he's emotionally unavailable to you. Children are ego centric. What
that means is, it's not narcissism. Children are supposed to
developmentally think that everything is about them, So that little

(38:32):
girl does if only I were filling the blank? Is
that constant? Though? That is? Sorry, I'm sorry to interrupt you.
Is that? So? Wait? If your dad was an alcoholic
and um and cheated a lot, right, and he slept
with other women. But so that doesn't so my dad
was a narcissist. He passed away, So that means I'm egocentric. No,

(38:59):
I love, I loved. But children are ecocentric. You're now
an adult. It's healthy as a child to be ecocentric.
And what that means is that little girl goes, Daddy's
gone again. If I was more lovable, if I was
better behaved, if I was cuter, if I loved whatever,
wouldn't be doing this. He would want to stay home
and hang out with me. So what happens is that

(39:21):
little girl internalizes that message something about me is not love,
then goes on in her adult life and unconsciously picks people.
She's most likely to pick people who are emotionally unavailable
in some way. It doesn't have to be that he's
an alcoholic and a cheater, and maybe that he's a workaholic,
and maybe that he's a drug act that, maybe that

(39:43):
he is a compulsive gambler, but she's likely to pick
someone is going to trigger that old unavailable dad wound.
Then what happens is that person then does that emotional
unavailable thing, and that child goes, oh crap, like Dad

(40:05):
must be right, I must not be lovable. I'm going
to try to do all of these things to make
that person stop doing the thing that they're doing. They're drinking,
the gambling, whatever it is, and if I'm really lovable,
he'll stop and dad will be wrong. And it feels
like home right like it's it's a familiar feeling. It

(40:28):
feels like home. It's very familiar. And on the positive side,
you're unconsciousness trying to heal this old wound. But the
problem is the odds of that person who you picked
actually stopping the behavior or miniscule and only you can
heal it. Is that correct. You can't find it, only
you can hear it. Look, relationships can be incredibly healing

(40:52):
when we pick healthy people who are willing to do
the work with us. But picking someone who doesn't want
to get well, doesn't want to change like, then they're
likely to say you're so controlling. And then what happens
is they pull away from you even more, which triggers
all of your abandoned stuff even more, and it creates

(41:12):
this horrible vicious cycle where everyone's freaking out and thinking
you can fix them because that instead of fixing you,
you know again you're trying and this is never gonna happen,
So it is a vicious cycle. You're right, Okay, should

(41:34):
we start with number one of my list of triggers okay,
not holding any accountability or responsibility over their actions. Do
you want to talk more in depth or should I
just list them out for you? But it's clear where
that publicly came from. So yeah, just thing. And you
didn't say like, hey, I'm screwed up, I'm doing this

(41:56):
for this reason. I'm going to get help. Absolutely, I
didn't even think a bit about it, like, let's related
to my past. It's more like, I guess I but
I just learned that this was a trigger for me.
Maybe it has always been. I couldn't put it into words,
but the accountability, I've realized that it is so important
in anybody's healing process because I'm in a I'm grieving

(42:18):
at the moment right like divorces, a death. And I
do now know though that no matter what as good
as you may think you feel for helping somebody or
thinking that, Okay, I'm gonna give this person a better
life and I'm gonna support, it's not it's not. That's
not what's going to happen, right, And I think that

(42:40):
there then builds resentment, especially if you don't also communicated
it's not your job to rescue another adult. Correct. And
I've learned that today, Yes, a long time ago, but
I'm learning it, yes, and sometimes we have to learn
it over and over again, oh for sure. And this
is why it's going to take many lifetimes to feel like, Okay,

(43:01):
I've got number one down. Okay, So the second one
is saying, um, you'll pay me back, but yet I've
never asked to be paid back however monetarily or emotionally. Well,
it's like, I mean both, It's just the non not
being dependable and not or not following through is a

(43:21):
really big thing with me. And what's the word for that?
Is this with friends or romantic relationship, with any relationship
I have in my life? Okay, then my question for
you is why are you're learning people money not just money? Though? Also,
like if you're going to say that you're going to
help with a choreography and you don't show up, that's
also just as an equivalent you know. Great, Okay, yeah,

(43:42):
that that makes sense. Okay, So people who don't show
up for you the way you show up for them,
which also makes sense because Dad didn't show up for
you never. Yeah we're supposed to, but he was very busy.
Yeah cool, And now how can we do I guess
what is the solution, Well, look, the solution to any

(44:02):
expectations or that's a lot. No. No. The first step
is understanding that this is wired into your history. That
then why it's a trick. But then the second thing
is screening over time when it comes to picking partners
or friends that this is something that you know about yourself.

(44:25):
You want to be very selective about who you allow
in your inner circle. Who you do this. It's with
who you are doing things for. And also to let
people know if they make a commitment to you, if
they say, oh, yeah, I'm going to choreograph this piece,
to say to them, hey, I just want to let
you know I'm the kind of person if you make
a commitment to me, I take it very seriously, as

(44:46):
I take my commitments to you very seriously. If if
you feel like you're not sure if you want to
do this, or you're not sure if it works with
your schedule, let me know now, because I'd like to
get our working relationship off on a good start, because
this is something that is kind of a deal breaker
from me in my relationships. If people say they're gonna

(45:07):
do something in doubt, so would that scare. Let's say
this was a person you dated right like, or you
went on after a first or second date. Wouldn't that
scare that other person off? But after a first date
like you said that you were taking next time. And
if you don't, then I need you to understand. My
father a band and if you and the enemy, by

(45:29):
the way, that's me. That is me. I get. I
just have diarrhea of the mouth, but yeah, that's me anyway,
And it's yeah, it's important to allow someone to earn
that information from us at O have a podcast, so
they're gonna hear it here. With earning, say more. With
the earning part, earning means seeing how people perform over time,

(45:53):
got it? And seeing if you are dating someone and
you share a piece of information you don't want to
right away share the big gigantic things that if this
person shared this with someone else, it would be really
catastrophic for you or really hurtful or really upsetting. You

(46:13):
start with the smaller things and you work your way
up and see how they perform over time. And over
time is not a week or a month. Over time
is a year, two years, three years? Stop? Yeah, are
you kidding? No? Okay, so wait, okay, because I have
this podcast in my particular situation, I share everything except

(46:35):
I mean not details of certain things obviously, but like
I've a year, two years, three years. Yeah, yeah, that's
crazy for me. Sorry, not, You're not crazy, it's me. No, No,
don't worry. We're all a little crazy. That's my next
trigger is when someone calls me crazy but you know,
but I I say, embrace it to me. Then that

(46:58):
is yeah, we're all a little crazy, aren't you. I mean, like,
I think that people who can't admit that they have
a little bit of crazy, like those are kind of
excurious people. Because if you know what you're crazy is
like you, you can work on it, you can address it.
Like we're all a little nuny. Okay, we go back,

(47:18):
go back to the one to three years, because what
if you're like me and I'm thirty eight and maybe
I might have a slight chance of like wanting to
have a family, It doesn't matter. Sure, Look, it doesn't
matter if you feel like you have a time clock.
Typically it takes eighteen months to know what you've got,

(47:44):
you mean, with the other person, Yep, honeymoon phase typically
last It can be as little as six months, as
much as two years. If you do long distance, it
can be longer, but it takes about that long because look,
the honeymoon phase is Oh my god, you like pizza.
I like pizza too. I can't believe how compati we.

(48:06):
All you see is how we're like, Oh my god,
the chemistry is amazing. Yes, we totally have sex again.
Let's do it again. Oh my god. Like the endorphins,
the oxytocin, it's fantastic. So the beginning, we're getting a
lot of chemicals in our brains that are making us
feel all kinds of delicious, wonderful things. It makes it

(48:27):
harder to see who's in front of us. And look,
I do recommend to people to wait to sleep together,
not because I'm not, not because hold, not not because
you should play games about sex, but because typically for
women in particular, the amount of oxytocin that our brains released,

(48:48):
which is that bonding hormone, it can really prevent us
from seeing what's in front of us. And I would
say probably of the women in my actus, once they've
slept with someone, they lose a lot of objectivity. I
fall in love fast, yeah, and that's not love. That's lust,

(49:11):
that chemistry, that is infatuation. But to truly love someone,
you have to know them over time, and you have
to know them on a really deep and profound love.
How many How long does that take? Eighteen months? More
than eighteen months? More than so when do people have
So let's say, so, do you also recommend that I
date a pool of men when I'm ready? I recommend

(49:35):
that you date a pool of men because there's no yourself. Yeah. Look,
you are someone who sounds like you are marriage rig
and you want to have a family, and so I
am a serial may not monogamous, And you have to
be careful because when you start to do the monogamy thing,
your take yourself off of the market and closing yourself

(49:56):
off to other possibility. You putting all your eggs in
one basket. But I could not date someone who's who
is not monogamous. I understand the monogamy is the ultimate goal.
That's great, But what if someone wants to have like
an open relationship. I think that's a red flag for me.
That's not that's not for you, that that's not compatible.

(50:17):
That's one of those things, like you know, I talked
in my book about what are deal brakers, And there
are a few things that are definitely deal breakers. Monogamy
if you are someone who wants a monogomous relationship, that
is not a negotiation. If you're someone who wants to
have a child, not a negotiation. That's something that should
not be Then you shouldn't have to give up that's

(50:39):
too important of a life experience. The number of kids that,
to me can be negotiated if you're with someone who's
like I want to and well I want three, that
can be negotiated. That can be discussed. But to have
kids or not have kids not negotiating. How about when
it comes to sobriety. Right, So I've been obviously I'm
not perfect, and it's one day at a time, but

(51:00):
lately I have been thinking about drinking again. Um I
have I'm a lot better than I was two weeks ago.
Put it that way. But it's really important, I guess too,
for me to really understand what is triggering right as
far as that goes. And I was out with a
few friends, um like a couple of weeks ago, and
I've realized that after ten thirty PM is my curfew

(51:20):
because nighttime and alcohol is a trigger for me, and
I also, you know, we'll drop you off if you
want to go to and after the night and after
it's probably when the night starts right ten thirties, like
senior citizen time. But that's fine, I'll drop you off.
But I think when I start seeing sloppiness, like when
I start seeing someone get really good, like feel good,
that's what I want to drink because I'm like, I

(51:41):
want to feel good too. Are you in a twelve
strip program? And when you say you're thinking about drinking,
are you talking to your sponsor about that? Oh? Yes,
absolutely for sure. Yes, No, she's very update. How would
drinking make your life better? And it wouldn't you know?
Believe me, I know that I hear I see it right,

(52:02):
But like, just like if I were to be unconscious
as I was at that moment, I think it helps
for me to call it out because if I don't
call it out, then the shame builds and then but
I'm also competitive, but I'm also like, I know I
will lose all the self respect and self love for
myself if I pick up a drink. Yeah, I would.
It would never happen. I can just say that it

(52:23):
will never happen in that sense, but when I'm not
conscious it could happen. Yeah. And also, you are doing
so much incredible work on yourself and your evolution. That's
the way to attract a healthy partner. If you start
drinking again, you're unlikely to attract a healthy part You're right,

(52:43):
You're right, because I will think I deserve should. Yeah,
but you will attract someone who likes being self destructive,
and that's not a good match for you. That that's
like a fatal match for you. Yes, yes, yes, you're
like psychic, but you're not. You're just you get it. Um,
maybe you're perfic. I don't know you. But quick, last question,

(53:06):
is it okay that I'm still like, I'm not texting anybody,
I'm not like nothing, Like it's just me and my
friend she hanging out, um, which is makes me actually
feel very um secure And also I feel safe, you know.
And I see my friends who are like their whole
life is being dictated by a text message or like

(53:27):
I'm just I'm gonna go, I'm not gonna like and
their mood and I'm like, I do not miss that.
And I know it's not either this being alone or
that but I guess, how much is it okay for
me that I'm single now? And it's okay if I'm
still single in a year from now. It's more than okay.
It's actually fantastic for you knowing that you can stand

(53:48):
on your own two feed that you don't have to
have a man to feel happy, that you can have
a peaceful, wonderful life. It sounds like you have a
great support to some a great network of friends and
also meetings and sobriety friends and support. Like that's fantastic,
and you're far more likely to attract a healthy partner.
Knowing that you can spend six to twelve months on

(54:11):
your own, peacefully and joyfully. That's going to attract a
healthy part I hear you, and my just too. I
know we have to go, but like I wonder though
to my social phobia I've been diagnosed with, I don't
want what I don't want. And I hear you, and
I'm grateful that you said that, because it makes me
feel like, Okay, I know I'm not ready, but I

(54:31):
also know I can get really comfortable being alone. Well,
but here's the thing. I don't want you locked in
your home, not having any interaction. Yeah, no, that's not
the case. But yes. But but if you're going out
with your girlfriends, with your friends, if you're going to work,
you're doing your things like they are not work, then
you're you're having emotional connections, and you need to have

(54:55):
the emotional connections to not get agrophobic. But you don't
need to. Agoraphobia is where you are so anxious leaving
your house that it becomes debilitating and you can't go.
Yeah yet, Yeah, okay, okay you I can honestly talk
to you forever. Um. Please tell everybody where they can

(55:18):
find you, your Instagram handle, social media, and also your
books because I do highly recommend um. Sorry, I forgot
what the book is called, but the one that it's
called The Relationships. Here you go, Dr Jensis Step Guide
to Improving Communication, Connection and Intimacy. You can find me
on social media at Dr jen Man two ends on

(55:40):
jen two ends on Man. You can also find me
in Style magazine online, and I have a weekly sex
and relationship column called Day with Dr jen Um. So
there you go. Thank you so much for your time.
Really I learned. I learned so much. Yeah, we'll have
to do it again. It was really a joy for

(56:00):
me as well. Thank you so much, have a great day.
Thank you so much to Dr jen Man for coming
on Burke in the game. I love anyone who's a
certified therapist. I'm like gravitating towards her brain and just
what she has to say, and so excuse the interruptions.
I was just very excited any who. We got a
lot of responses from last week's question, which was should

(56:23):
you follow up with someone that owes you money and
hasn't paid you back yet? So one response that stood
out to me was from at specific Skincare, who left
this comment on our I g if it's understood that
it's alone, I think a date for repayment should be
established so there aren't any awkward feelings and having to
ask for the money. If that date comes and goes

(56:43):
without mention of payment, then it definitely needs to be
brought up. I agree, great advice. Um. Sometimes though, when
it comes to relationships, I find that any talk of
money or all of that, like okay, you know, here's alone,
and here's the dates you need to pay me back,
it just takes the I think a lot of people
would agree to. It takes that kind of row. It

(57:04):
doesn't make it very romantic, right, Like it's a really
hard conversation. But I totally agree with you and you
guys this really helps me, So keep it coming. When
it comes to UM answering our questions on I G
or our email address, And for this week, the big
question is what's a trigger for you in relationships? I've

(57:25):
got tons um, I didn't even finish my list with
Dr Jen, but UM give me one trigger for you guys,
UM when it comes to relationships. Okay, and we want
to hear from all of you, so please email us
again at Burke in the Game at i heeart radio
dot com or d m us on Instagram at burke
in the Game by thanks for listening and coming along

(57:46):
this journey with me. If you like what you hear,
then feel free to give this podcast five stars. You
can also follow along with my journey on Instagram at
burke in the Game and if you have any advice
or want to write in, then email me at Burke
in the Game at I heart radio dot com.