August 29, 2024 • 57 mins
This week, Cal talks with Eric Crawford, Trout Unlimited's Director for the Lower Snake River Campaign. We talk breaching of the four lower Snake River dams, invasive fish passage, what success would mean in numbers, treaty rights, and what it would actually take, hydropower replacement, barge replacement, downstream irrigators, and so much more.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
From Meat Eaters World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This
is Col's Week in Review with Ryan cow Klan. Here's Cal.
What is happening all you?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
You know Cal the Wild Cow's we can review fans
As promised, I have my friend Eric Crawford of Trout
Unlimited on the on the horn with us to go
through this incredibly huge, diverse topic of what right now
(00:43):
is a question a proposal of how and why removal
of the four Snake lower Snake River dams, uh would
make sense and and wh and and kind of like
the to how we could get those things out of
there and account for the things that we talked about
(01:05):
on the last podcast, which would be we want to
have healthy outgoing salmon and steelhead and healthy incoming salmon
and steelhead, so returning fisheries to a healthier state. We
want to figure out the big question mark of those
(01:28):
are hydro electric dams. They're creating power. How do we
replace that power? Shipping component which there's a port I
think our furthest Inland port four hundred and sixty five
miles from the ocean, so you can take an ocean
going ship all the way to Lewiston, Idaho, four hundred
(01:50):
and sixty five miles river miles inland through this system
of locks that would also go away at the four dams.
So how do you replace the shipping benefits capabilities that
are currently in place. And then one of the things
that came out of this trip to Lewiston with with
(02:15):
Eric Crawford that I, you know, just didn't quite have
any real understanding of, is this United States government obligation
to the Nez Perce people too with old to uphold
their end of a treaty, a federal agreement document between
(02:42):
the sovereign nation of the Nez person and the United
States Government that says there's going to be salmon in
the river for the people. And one of the amazing
fascinating thing that I learned speaking with Chairman Wheeler of
(03:03):
the Nezbrus tribe is that document the intent of that
document is to be upheld as if it were the
time of the signing of that treaty, which to me,
I would interpret that to mean that it's not just
(03:26):
salmon in the river, it's wild salmon in the river.
So we're not talking hatchery. Fish is like an add
on thing, a placeholder maybe, but when you're talking about
that treaty, you're talking about wildfish. So, Eric, what do
(03:51):
you do for Trout Unlimited?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Thanks, Ryan, I am the Snake River campaign director for
Trout Unlimited, so oversea our broader campaign within the region
to remove the four Lower Snake River dams and then
ultimately recover wild salmon a steelhead to the Snake River
basin while restoring a free flowing river in the Lower
Snake Corridor.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
And so that the way you look at it is
it is your job to promote the removal of those dams.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Yeah, that definitely is accurate, with a little bit of
a caveat that we Travel Limited really support a comprehensive solution.
So addressing all those issues that you just brought up, transportation, energy, irrigation, recreation,
none the least upholding, you know, holding the federal government
responsible for their obligations for treaty rights for the tribes
(04:51):
throughout the Columbia basin physically, you know, as we learned
last week, how important those fish are to the Nez
Perce tribe. And so all of that wrapped into one
in various aspects, whether it's outreach and engagement with local
interests representing the agricultural sector, the irrigation sector. Not only
(05:15):
our membership within to you are grassroots grasstops, but then
also all the way from local electeds up to congressionals.
So a very broad swath of duties that I helped
direct and oversee and participate in in my role as
director of the campaign.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
And yeah, I got a little foggy brain here today, folks.
But if you're fuming already listening to this, I did
forget the irrigation component, which is a huge, huge point
of concern for a lot of folks in the lower
of the Lower Snake River dams. And I say lower
(06:00):
of the Lower because that's really where the significant irrigation
withdrawal comes out of.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Correct, Yeah, that's that's correct, Ryan. It's down to the
Ice Harborpool. There's about sixty thousand irrigated acres of agriculture
down there that there needs to be a solution of
how do you get that water onto those crops in
a different system than what it is today, you know,
(06:25):
a reservoir system to a free flowing river system down there,
So a whole caveat of services that need to be replaced.
And I mean, in reality, the good news is is
that there is a very considered effort by the federal
government now through what is called the Six Sovereigns Agreement
(06:47):
and specifically US government commitments to replace the majority of
those services. So we're seeing that happening currently and so
hopefully we'll continue to see progress in that aspect. And
really this is the first time and really the history
of the Lower Snake River Dam, so about almost fifty
(07:07):
years you know, plus or minus a couple since the
completion of Lower Granite Dam, which is the upper dam
in the hydro system, that that conversation has really changed
about not just breach and not just about fish, replacement
of services and really tying it all together to put
(07:28):
our best foot forward in the region.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
And how has your best foot forward been received so far?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Well, I mean, there definitely are there definitely are folks that,
at least in my conversations, that you know, want to
stick their head in the sand and just hope that
it goes away. You know, this discussion about breach just
goes away, and that we can just maintain the status
quo it as it is. There are others that are
(07:59):
interesting and engaging, cautiously but really those conversations have changed
tenfold since. You know, there was a progression of effort
here within the region, within the country to breach these
four Lower Snake River dams, starting all the way back
in twenty nineteen when Represented Mike Simpson.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Of Idaho had made, you know.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
A little bit of a promise committed to restoring wild
sam and steelhead in the basin. That was during a
conference in Boise, Idaho, and that really got the conversation
going that ogs now we really do have the attention
of Congress or at least one Congressman. And then over
(08:47):
the next couple of years you really saw the conversation
start to mature, and then ultimately Representative Simpson released a proposal,
the Northwest Han Transition Proposal, which was the thirty three
billion dollar proposal to move the region away from the hydrosystem,
(09:09):
reaching the four Lower Snake River dams, providing the mechanism
or the idea of funding those replacement services, but also
economic inputs from towns throughout the base and Lewiston here
at the confluence of the Snake and clear Water all
the way down to the Tri Cities and the Pacific
(09:30):
Northwest lab investments and new energy development. It really was
a bold proposal that came out and it kind of
fell flat on its face. It was kind of surprising
that other senators and or representatives in the Northwest didn't
really lob onto. What we saw is that Senator Patty
(09:51):
Murray of Washington, Governor Jay Insley also took a lead
in a leadership role in this discussion and re evaluated
kind of what Representative Simpson had brought out and ultimately
put forth their own recommendations, one acknowledging that the only
real way to recover sam the cel it in the
basin is going to be breached those dams, but we
(10:12):
need to replace those services. Fast forward today, as I noted,
what's referred to as the six sovereigns Agreements, which is
the State of Oregon, State of Washington, the Yakama Nation,
then first Tribe, the Confederate Tribes of the I Matila,
and the Confederate Advans of the Warm Springs all reached
(10:33):
an agreement with the federal government to stay the litigation
and the Lower Snake and worked up a whole bunch
of agreements and commitments again to move this conversation forward
that was supported by the current administration, the Biden administration,
and so that's really where we are today. And we've
seen this really move along in a positive fashion and
(10:56):
replacing services. With that being said, we are still in
a situation that you know, time is of the essence
these fish, salmon, schnook salmon both spring summer falls, steelhead,
and sake. I just don't have the time. The clock
is ticking.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
All those species are listed under the endangered Species list,
starting all the way back in ninety one with saki
and completing in ninety seven with the listing of steelhead
in the basin, and they remain there today with real
noticeable change or any kind of ability to get them
(11:38):
off the list. Right And as you mentioned in the intro,
you know, this is really about recovering wild salmon, a steelhead.
Those are the species that are listed. You know, we
can talk about actual production and why it's there and
why it ends up being you know, a placeholder for
those wild stocks, but at the end of the day,
(11:59):
we're really trying to over those wild stocks, you know,
into a into an incredible basin of habitat with huge
loss of wilderness, including the Frank Church and the Selwey
bitter Root, intact habitat. Everything is there waiting for them
to come back. It's just that right now, with the
(12:20):
hydro system as it is, despite all the mitigation efforts
and band aids that have been placed on the hydro system,
we just can't get them, get them recovered.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
And so I just want to ask you again, like
when you say that habitat is in place, that upstream
spawning habitat is what you're referring to, as well as
like the ability for the fish to travel because it
is a free flowing river above if you take like
Dworshack out of it and some old mining impoundment things
(12:55):
like thinking of like the Yankee Fork type of yeah situation,
fishcam freely travel up and downstream once they get above
Lower Granite.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Yeah that's that's yeah, that's correct. And yeah, so lower
granted it's about seventeen miles approximately downriver from the Idaho border,
I know, Washington border. Once they get over Lower Granite
and those fish have already passed, we're just going to
talk about adults. For instance, those fish are going to
(13:31):
pass the four Lower Columbia dams and then get over
the four Lower Snake river dams and then once they're
into that at Idaho habitat, and for that matter, portions
of southeast Washington and northeast Oregon also have large expanses
of available habitat, but Idaho in particular, really right now
it's the gold standard and habitat for cold water fisheries
(13:53):
on the west coast distribution of Pacific salmon. About forty
eight percent of all available cold water habitat in the
range of Pacific salmon in the lower forty eight exists
in the Snake River basin. And even the state of
Idaho acknowledges that, you know, despite some of these impoundments
(14:13):
like door Shaft, about sixty two percent of that habitat
and Idaho is still intact and accessible for these fish.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
And that's not really by coincidence. I mean, there's a
crazy history of all sorts of different mining operations in
these tributaries, which which are would would be the spawning habitat, logging,
(14:43):
grazing in some of the like these high alpine meadows
that you in personal experience, you're walking along and you go,
holy shit, look at the size of that fish.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Yeah, And so like there's been a lot of create
changes to grazing patterns along some of those high alpine meadows,
or a switch from one set of livestock to another,
some rehabilitation stream bank, really rehabilitation and heavily logged and
(15:21):
mined areas, changes in those mining and logging practices and cash.
I think it was like during the Obama administration where
that area was circled on the map as a cold
water reserve in North America.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Right, yeah, I think that that that's accurate, and it's
you know, the highest coldest cold water habitat in the
lower forty A, you know, and that's why we trod
and limit are so adamant about, Hey, this is the
last best place to really restore and recover wild something
on its in the Snake River. And despite all those
(16:01):
you know, extractive and land use practices that has a
historically happened on the landscape, it shows that these fish
are incredibly resilient and at times can be tolerant to
those type of impacts. The one thing that they're not
tolerant and resilient to is the hydro system. But you know,
(16:25):
if we can get there, get them back, you know,
trout unlimited, we we have a very large water and
habitat restoration program across you know, the United States, but
even specifically here in Idaho with a lot of effort
going on in the upper Salmon drainage is specifically restoring
the Yankee Fork, a lot of work with our partners
(16:47):
on the Lem High which is a tributary there to
the Salmon River rate at Salmon, Idaho, all kind of
creating this perfect environment in addition to everything else that's
still wild and exile and intact for when we get
these dams out, and it ends up being a totality
of the life, life's history of a of a salmon. Right,
(17:10):
not only are we you know, trying to restore a
migration corridor, but at the same time we're providing you know,
the habitat for quality, red red building and rearing of
juveniles all the way up through the entire left history.
And so that's what's really important to recognize is that,
you know, this really is the sweets for restoration of
(17:34):
the species.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, it's a pretty unique situation where there's a literal
line on the map where you're like, okay, above here,
we're as good as things get.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Yeah, Yeah, And I mean it's no different than you know,
a human driving out of the city. Right, It's just
like you're in Boise, Idaho. Both of you and I
have spent a considerable amount of time there, and you
think about the city when you're there, but jeez, you
drive what an hour north or northeast and you're in
(18:08):
some of the wildest country in the lower forty eight.
And that's kind of the analogy with these fish. It's
just like, hey, we can drive out of they can
swim out of the industrialized Columbia and Lower Snake and
get into you know, the best of the best of habitat.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
You got to talk about kind of the beliefs out
there that are part of the narrative to be like
highly skeptical of the efficacy of removing dams, right, And
you know, just today, you know, there was a fellow
rode in talking about Core of Engineers information saying that
(18:52):
even with the removal of the Lower four Snake River dams,
we could only see an increase of about fourteen percent
of current runs. And current runs are you know, way
below historical historical numbers, which were you know, very very high.
(19:15):
So if that's true or untrue, we should definitely cover
but Also, I think it gets into the bigger question
of just like if, k if we go through all
this work and these things are producing clean, affordable energy,
how do we know it's going to be worth it?
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:38):
And how do we quantify worth it?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Well?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (19:42):
And I mean when you when you try to quantify
something like this, you have to look at no different
than what you know, probably the core of engineers is
doing right now. You have to look at all aspects
of what these fish presa provide to the region. This
isn't just about providing fish for fisheries in Idaho. You know,
(20:04):
the entire Columbia system would benefit by renewed, renewed fisheries,
and so you look at the cultural, social, economic, and
ultimately biological values associated with these with these renewed runs.
And so you know, many times we place value in
the form of monetary value, but sometimes things cannot be measured.
(20:28):
I would never be able to articulate the social cultural
value with a dollar figure of what these fish provide
to say, the nez perstribe and its members in the
Upper Basin, or the Yakamas or the warm Springs or
the Yumatillas. I can look simply at some things I
(20:49):
have a friend in Chalice, Idaho and Central Idaho that
historically Chala saw pretty good runs of chinook and then
also steelhead, and their runs have really been cut short lately,
even on hatchery returns, which all these fisheries are based on.
Right now, he owns a sporting good shop has for
(21:10):
twenty years there the bent rod and he greg now
really doesn't carry that much fishing gear relating to salmon
and steelhead. It's all more of outdoor recreation broadly, you know,
hiking and camping and stuff. And so you look at
like little things like that and how that the trickle
(21:31):
economics of what those mean to river communities like Challice
and some of the other ones and riggins, and you
can put a dollar figure on that. There's been a
number of economic studies in relationship to sam and steelhead fisheries,
specifically shin At fisheries in Idaho, and it's pretty staggering
of what the economic inputs are just in Idaho. The
(21:56):
value of the electricity, I mean, the reality is the
grid is going to need more energy regardless. Those lower
Snake River dams produce on average about nine hundred and
sixty megawatts of energy is what they contribute. The real
value is on demand, so when it's super hot or
(22:16):
super cold, you know they can produce energy. But at
the same time, we're faced with the dilemma that we
need more energy in the Northwest, and so why not
invest in another source outside of the hydra system that
we can utilize and you know, put ourselves better off
(22:37):
into the future while still recovering these fish. And so
it's really hard to place those values on there.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
The other part of that.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
You know, is well are they going to restore the fish?
I think, you know, everybody needs to be aware that
the core of engineers has a vested interest.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
In these dams.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
It is very readily apparent know that they don't want to,
i think, admit that they're salmon killers or take credit
for the impacts of the intra system to the cultural
resources of the tribes throughout the region and these salmon populations.
I was at Lower Granted last week with a tour
(23:18):
with the nez Perse and it oftentimes is disturbing how
much misinformation or stretching of the truth and facts actually
is represented by core engineers. Folks multiple other ways to
get that information. Again, the core has a vested interest
in keeping those dams. You can look at the Fish
(23:40):
Passes Center, which is a conglomeration of various entities and
agencies both state and federal, that put out what's called
the Comparative Survival Study. It's an almost thirty year data
set of SAM and Steelhead survival through the hydro system
(24:01):
and evaluating all the different band aids have been put
forth as mitigation efforts, and everything comes.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Back to the reality.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
The hydro system and the dams in the hydro system
are the largest mortality factor of SAM and as Yila
and the Snake River basin. And I think, you know,
it's you got to keep it in the context. You know,
we were just talking about door Shack and some of
the impacts throughout the basin, you know, and right now
(24:32):
the bar is not to recover to historical numbers.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
The bar in.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Reality is actually pretty low. You know. Noah, North America
are a National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration could ben the
KLUBBIA Basin Partnership Task Force through the late teens of.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Twenty.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
I guess twenty twenty one is when they they finished
up with their final report. And for example, if we
look at spring summer Chanook and the Snake Over Basin.
You know, right now, we're averaging for wild returns anywhere
from about seven thousand to ninety five hundred in the
entire basin historically, with the available habitat that is there now,
(25:22):
it was estimated that a million spring and summer chinook returned.
But what the Columbia Basin Collaborative, our partnership came up
with is low, medium and high end goals. And even
the high end goal, which is one hundred and fifty
nine thousand native origin or wild spring summer chinook, is
(25:44):
only sixteen percent of that historical value. So we're not
like reaching for the stars. It is based on the
assumption that that is what you would need to have
healthy and abundant fishery or populations that can support both
tribal and recreational fisheries. So you've really got to keep
(26:06):
it in context, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Which is hard, right because it's like, you know, like
that email I brought up, it's very much like, well,
only fourteen percent, and then on the other side of
the table, it's like, holy shit, fourteen percent would be huge.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yeah, because it's reality, it's a massive project. There's a
ton of unknowns, lots of things have to happen, and
there's four more dams below this area. Yeah right, just
for the returns that I'm talking about.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Yeah on the Columbia. Yeah that that aren't even part
of this equation. They're they're not even they're not part
of the discussion whatsoever. They actually contribute an immense amount
of power to the overall Northwest grid and are really important.
The lower Snake dams not as much, and there's a general.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Consensus that that power can replace.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
You know, and I and I think you know people,
people have to go into this wide eyes, wide open.
I mean, I am not naive to this situation. I
live here on the Polue where all this grain is produced,
you know, that is transported through the hydrosystem.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Although I'm not a customer.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Of BPA, I am not naive to the impacts that
these into a change in electricity production would have. And
so I yeah, I am not you know, somebody that
is foreign to all these conversations. It's something that I
take very seriously as a community member. Why I represent
(27:53):
try to unlimited but then also looking to recover these
fish and the benefits that come with them. I think
that people really have to take a bigger deep dive,
you know, which is really difficult at times to get
the most after it and correct information. Last year, I
guess it was, or it was last year or twenty
(28:15):
twenty two, Noah came out with a paper, position paper
that acknowledges the only way that we're going to recover
these fish. His breach of the four lower Snake River dams.
That is kind of that is based on the wide
amount of scientific data that is out there. It really
(28:39):
puts to bed, you know, the scientific argument that hey,
you know, hey, we need.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
To study more.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
And I hear that all the time, Well we need
to study this, we need to study that. Hey look
at look at the sea lions down below Bonaville, look
at you know, Caspian turns or the other avian predators
down on the Lower Columbia's always look at something else,
you know, don't look here at the real problem. Look
at something else.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
And try to fix that first.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
And we've been doing it for almost fifty years and
it hasn't been successful.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
And and those those predator species are growing also, they're
they're benefiting from I mean we saw it firsthand, right,
It's like you create this big turbid pool that a
bunch of disoriented fish gets shot out of a cannon basically,
(29:29):
and the birds and the walleye and the small mouth
pass or you know, lined up, ready, ready for the
food food train.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
The only reason that those those predators are successful is
because the system is highly modified, you know, to their
favor and to a disadvantage of salmon and steelhead.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
So I mean, I still can't get over the fact that,
like we're sitting there in the viewing window at Littwer granted,
and you know there's a thirty and shinook going upstream
with two walleye.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Yeah, and as I told you, like that is really
a that is a really recent phenomena five years ago.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
You do go down there.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
And you'd be hard pressed to see a walleye. And
so now, I mean as we saw, I mean there
wasn't just two, you know, there were several. As we
sat there and watched that we're trying to make their
way up, you know. And so I mean, yeah, I
mean it's it's a heavily modified system.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
People are just so goofy too, Like I can't wrap
my head around the pike minto situation. I mean, I
don't think we're going to destroy pike mino, which is
a native fish and I swear to God makes great savice.
But we're actively with a reward system suppressing pike mino.
(30:57):
Well you know, there's no limits on small my pass
or Walleye, but we're not incentivizing anybody to go in
there and and take those fish. It's just, you know,
it's just odd to me. We also got Channel cap
in there, right.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Channel Cat yeah in the mix. So
uh yeah, and as our was it Jim? Was that
that our pike minow?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
From Jim from Florida.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
You know, as he said, you know he uh you know,
even he saw a scene a different and uh in
catch rates of pike minnow a guy that in retirement
travels from Florida and he say comes up in May?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Is that what he said? May? And through September?
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Yeah right, and uh, camp's balilo and grantede just to
take advantage of the pike Minnow reward program. Uh in
his retirement years to stay active. And you know what
you tell us May? Yeah, yeah, got about a thou
I was in pike Mino last year, I think he's
what he told us, and that translates to about ten
(32:03):
thousand dollars in a re award system, and then this year,
you know, he has three hundred. I think pike Mino
is what he told us, And I mean and he
you know, kind of blames it on you know, Walleye
that you know, there aren't those younger year classes and
so you know, not only are walle impacting salmonds, but
(32:23):
they're also impacting other native species. So you know, none
of the least you know, pike Mino that have that
reward program.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
But you know, I.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Often see lamprey in the in the stomach contents earlier
in the season when am seats are out migrating, and yeah,
it's it's kind of pretty crazy situation.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Yeah, and boy, the lamprey deals something we got to
get more into because that's just like such a unique deal.
Everybody thinks of, you know, invasive lamprey in the Great Lakes,
but this is a native native fish, right and it's
coming all the way, yeah, coming all you know, it's
(33:09):
spawning in the mountains, going all the way out to
the ocean and returning and it's it's just wild to see.
And that was because of the fat oil content that
was a huge, huge resource for native peoples in that
(33:30):
river system.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
Yeah, and still you know, it's significant, no longer a
significant portion of their diet, but culturally still significant, you know,
particularly the nets erst as as we learned.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Yeah, and their stories about lamp prey are that because
it is so fatty and so oily, it was the
preferred prey for predator species, and they would focus on
the lamprey going out and would ignore the salmon smolt
(34:06):
going out, which was a really interesting you know observation
oral history tidbit that we picked up. I thought that
was really cool because really that's the role, a huge
part of the role other than providing interest and recreation
and revenue of the current hatchery program, right is people
(34:30):
predate on hatchery fish let the wildfish go.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
So yeah, all fisheries within the snaker of the basin,
with a little bit of an exception, are based off
of mitigated hatchery returns.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Incidentally, wildfish may be encountered and caught but cannot be retained.
All of this is based on hatchery returns and so
people often get those numbers conflated. You know, we have
some representatives to the west of me that like to
promote you know, historical runs, and some of that is
(35:07):
misinformation from the US Army Corps engineers and how they
represent fish returns and they conflate both hatchery and wild
stocks together and like to occasionally talk about how we're
seeing historical runs and returns. Well, you know, you ask
any any angler in the system and they'll tell you
(35:28):
right away that you know, a one for spring spring chinook,
a one one daily limit on spring chinook is not
a historical return really provides are they any opportunity for anybody.
But with the exception, you know, we were able to
go fall Chaduk fishing, and because of life life history
(35:50):
and survival of faul Chinook and the limited amount of
habitat now that they actually have available to them, you
can actually harvest and add intact, intact fish in your
three fish daily limit as we saw when we were out.
And so that is kind of the exception. No fisheries
(36:11):
on snake over Saki, all steelhead fisheries are based on
how to returns, and so again it really you know,
you can get super focused and just really think about
your tiny little window of opportunity if your steelhead angler
and not really pay attention at these you know, well,
(36:31):
what are the wild stocks doing? You know, what are
lamprey doing? You know who else benefits from these fish?
And it really is an incredible opportunity and story that
these fish provide to the region.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Heck yeah, yeah, you know, I'd off the air listeners.
We were talking about an uncle of mine. He's dying
of cancer. And I had just come back from this
trip with with Eric and we managed to catch had
a huge chinook. I took a couple of flays over
(37:08):
here and and he was able he's you know, lifelong
outdoors mun and was able to show him the picture
and he goes, holy shit. And I was able to
get a few bites some of that big chinook salmon
down the other night. So that was that was pretty cool.
(37:29):
So that yeah, that that fish is still still providing.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
And I said something similar when that fish finally got
close to the boat with as large as it.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Was, Yeah yeah, yeah, and four hundred and sixty five
miles from the ocean, it's just like such an amazing,
amazing animal.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Right, yeah, yeah, And that's the you know, that's really
the crazy thing about it. Yeah, we encountered it and
you're able to catch it at you know, approximately four
sixty five of river miles from the Pacific. But you know,
it already made one trip out as a small spent
you know, anywhere three to five years, which judged by
that the size of that fish it was on that
(38:12):
you know, cuss of being a five five ocean fish
and five year old fish, and so it you think
about how much time it's spent in the out in
the ocean and back probably.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Up in southeast Alaska.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
And yeah, and yeah, dodged.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Quite a few flashers and herring being drifted out there,
as well as some nets and yep, and then all
the orcas and pinna pads and ah managed to go through.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Eight dams, managed to yeah, wits, managed to go.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Through all the way out all the way back in so.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Yep, and then slipped up with old Ryan Callahan.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Yep. Yeah. Yeah, it's wild, it really is. There's a
good conversation going around right now. It seems like people
are by and large a little more willing to kind
of be at the table, but kind of where where
(39:22):
are we at is this a like if we had
a call to action today, what would it be.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Yeah, the call to action is really to engage with
congressional your congressional representation, both Housing and Senate. And the
reason being is that these fish are these dams are
congressionally authorized. We're congressionally authorized in the nineteen forty Safe
(39:49):
Rivers and Harbors Act and need to be congressionally authorized
for removal. All this effort really right now that we
see with the administration and the US government agreement with
the six sovereigns is in preparation to really get that authorization.
But congressmen and women need to know that people support
(40:13):
recovery of salmon and steelhead in the basin. Again, this
isn't just about you know, Idaho fish. These fish provide
an opportunity throughout the entire Columbia below the snake and
out into the ocean fisheries. They're not just an Idaho resource.
They're you know, really an American resource that shouldn't be
(40:34):
taken for granted. As you noted that that false chinook
you know, probably was in in southeast Alaska at one
point in time, but at the same time those fall chinook,
they stay fairly close to the coast, and some go south,
you know, all the way to northern California, and others
go north. Each of these species have different ocean life
(40:55):
fisheries that take them all the way up into the
Gulf of Alaska all the way back and providing opportunity everywhere.
And that really has been going on, you know, really
since the advent of civilization. I you know, we had
an interaction with an individual at Lower Grantede, you know,
(41:15):
that claimed that this land these fish belonged to somebody else,
you know, and didn't really understand why the nett Pers
wanted are all back. And I reminded him, as I've
been taught by Charmy Wheeler the next Perst tribe, that
there is documented history of the nest person being here
(41:38):
for sixteen thousand years, so you know, they really were
the first ones here. And so you know, and that's
really this real long story of the opportunities that these
fish provided for the various cultures.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah, I mean, and I'm not jumping over that's an
amazing fact. You know. The I always want to say
Bonner's ferry, but it was Glenn's ferry, right.
Speaker 3 (42:05):
Is Yeah, Yeah, Now you say that I'm not sure
there is documentation within the snake right here that is
sixteen thousand years.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Yeah, sixty five hundred, I believe, which is unreal. Right,
Like as far as like first peoples on the continent,
right we always talk like Beringia the land bridge and
those numbers don't drive.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Well, no they don't, not with that historical record.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah, Chairman Wheeler did point out that He's like, that's
just where they stopped digging right right there. There could
be a lot more to the story, and I'm sure
there is. But you know that like food security, food sovereignty,
that one fish, three of us eight on really just
(42:58):
one flay. I cooked two flays, but we ate one
file a piece of a file. At the other night,
Tyler Emmett and read more, they both got a couple
of flays a piece. Jason producer Jason Rari got a
couple of flays. I have more in the freezer right now.
(43:20):
Like one fish provides a lot, and I didn't you know,
I didn't make stock out of the bones or anything
like that. We scraped all the burger off, but there
still was more to be done with with that fish
if you wanted to do it. So, I mean, it's
it's a lot of return for one of those fish,
and I think about that a lot. You know, it's
(43:42):
especially when they're in numbers. You know, we always used
to joke in the guiding days when we'd have people
be like, yeah, I just want to learn to fly
cast well enough to catch fish in Alaska, and we'd
be like, well, you're there, because the thing, the dirty
secret about Alaska is there's so many fish you don't
need to be great at fishing. Yeah, yeah, And so
(44:06):
providing that like food opportunity in these rivers that are accessible,
there's so much public land right down to the river's edge,
the river is public. You're providing people with some real independence,
way life type independence if we can get these returns
(44:28):
back high enough, right.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
Yeah, and even right now, Ryan, Really it's people kind
of misunderstand this whole what we're fishing on. You know,
I tried to articulate it earlier, but you know, these
are mitigated hattery returns, mitigated for the impacts of the
lower snake to produce opportunity. That's what hatchery fisher here
(44:53):
for is opportunity. And even in low run years, you know,
these are so heavily regulated and managed that when there
are opportunities for seasons, I highly encourage people to get
out there and fish for these hatchery stock.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
One.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
They provide incredible table fair, you know, and as we talked,
I mean you could live off sam in the entire year,
competitive on you know, these runs and the cycle of runs,
and they are incredible table fair. And so this isn't
about like, oh, let's just let all those close down
the fisheries and that'll help them recover. Well that's not
(45:35):
the case, not the case at all. Those fish are
there mandatory mitigation from Congress of all people to the
Northwest Power apt to provide opportunity and take advantage of
that opportunity when it's available.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
It's so crazy too, because it's so highly hands on manipulated,
Like the effort involved beyond the fish doing what fish
do is pretty insane. Like the fish ladder system, the
(46:13):
willingness to truck fish pipefish into a truck truck fish
above below dams. It is a hands on. They're damn
near close enough to have like a barcode on each
fish that you could scam.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
Well, I mean they almost literally have a barcode on
each fish in the form of either code or buyer
tag from hatchery fish, and another portion of wild and
hatchery fish have passive integrated tags. And that's why we
you know, your point, so heavily managed. It is insane
(46:53):
to know how well managers fisheries managers throughout the basin
this basin particular, can predict run numbers, can update run
numbers through the course of the system. Never mind, here
in Idaho they do genetic stock indexing on all wildsown
onits so spring, summer, schnook, and the steelhead stocks that
(47:19):
they can trace these individuals back to a specific drainage
because of historical genetic data that they have. The same
thing occurs tracing back individuals to hatchery parentage through fin
clips and genetics. And that's the thing, I mean, this
(47:40):
is what we've come to to manage this population is technology,
genetics and band aids. And we know enough about the system,
We know enough about the mortality factors to know what
direction we need to go, and that really.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Is the removal of those fish.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
But in the meantime, you know, yep, take advantage of
the opportunities as they exist. I mean, you know, the
last Sunday, we were you know, out there with shoot
one hundred plus other other friends, right, and you really
saw what what these fish mean to some of these communities.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Oh for sure. And you know that's where we talk
about there's going to be a massive cost associated with
everything if we're transitioning away from hydro power to replace
it with small scale nuclear reactors, wind solar. Big cost
(48:45):
on a lot of levels involved with that. Beefing up
rail or trucking to compensate for the shipping of goods
on barges. A lot of costs associated with that. The irrigation,
what that's going to look like. Are there going to
(49:08):
be new wells pumps, you know, aqua bypass projects. Lots
of cost associated with that. But one of the things
that is like amazing to me and truly intriguing about
the story is the tribe then Espers. They get a
lot of money to run these hatcheries, and they're the
(49:33):
first ones in line saying like, yeah, it'd be great
to shut these things down.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
Yeah yeah, I mean they're they're dedicated to the recovery, right,
And just to backup about the cost, you know, I
think the listeners would be naive to think that this
cost there is zero cost right now as a system
is operated. The systems, you know, incredibly expensive to run,
(50:01):
you know, incredible upfront investments in building these dams and
continue operation and maintenance of these dams. It's estimated that
twenty four billion dollars has been put forth in various
mitigation efforts because of these dams. A full third of
(50:22):
rate payers bills go towards mitigation efforts, and so really
at the end of the day, it comes back to
reimagining how we spend this money. Can we transition what
these expenses are today to something different in the future,
And I think the answer is yes, yes we can
(50:42):
while still benefiting from recovered population of sam in the
seal head.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
Pretty cool. I think, you know, one of the largest
hurdles here is just the not knowing what it really
looked like, right Like, there's a lot of little speak
with a bunch of people that we did in all
the communities and conversations that I've had outside of that,
you know, you get all these like oh yeah, but
(51:08):
what if and it's not like a real firm this
is what I'm hanging my hat on type of statement.
I think it's just really a little placeholder to just
kind of be like, well, how many fish are we
talking about? Because you know, if it was like if
there was a way to just like properly equate it
(51:30):
and be like, okay, historical looked like this in this system,
that fishing hole that you go to all the time
would look like this from time to time, right, or
that trip up to Alaska or that scene out of
the National Parks documentary or whatever, like, this is what
it would look like at certain times of the year.
(51:51):
People would you know, if you could guarantee that, like,
people would be like, oh, now, I get it type
of thing. But you know, we're just so far removed
from that in that system.
Speaker 2 (52:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:03):
Yeah, And you know, as we you know, previously talked,
I mean, there's no guarantees of mother nature. It doesn't
it doesn't matter what species you're talking about. There's just
no guarantees. Yeah, in this equation. The one guarantee that
is out there is that if you do remove those dams,
replacing all the services associated with it, you have removed
(52:27):
that mortality factor that is guaranteed. Right how mother nature reacts,
We have you know, somewhat of a historical reference now
with the removal the Elwah Dam over on the Olympic Peninsula,
the current removal of the Klimate dams in northern California
(52:47):
and southern Oregon, that'll show us and are continually showing
us that, boy, you get out of the way of
these salmon the steelhead and they will rebound. The river
will will cleanse itself and recover itself in due time,
the ecosystem will heal itself and be as robust as
(53:08):
it was once was before man got in the way.
And so we do have those track records in those examples,
even here on the West coast, that that will prove that,
you know, there is a lot of opportunity here in
the Snake.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
And so one more time for us, Eric, if folks
want to learn more, do some of their own research.
Read up on you know, kind of the high level
things that we hit on today, like where's the best
place to go?
Speaker 3 (53:39):
Yeah, so we try to limit it. Of course, have
a sneaker of a campaign landing page. It's to you
dot org for slash Lower Snake. I'd encourage you also
to look at the Columbia Basin Partnership Paskforce final Phase
two report that really lines out a lot of this
conversation lines out the quantitative goals for various fish stocks
(54:06):
throughout the Columbia Basin. You know, do your own research,
you know, don't just take take.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
My word for it. I encourage everybody to come to their.
Speaker 3 (54:15):
Own conclusion, you know, with with or write about right
amount of data and information from both sides of it. Again,
I live here, uh, you know, I am ground zero
for this conversation. And and don't take it lightly, you know. Yeah,
I'm an avid angler. I work for Drod un Limited.
We're all about recovering wild wild sam in the Steelhead.
(54:38):
And but at the same time, I walk into this conversation,
in every conversation with my eyes wide open and know
and listen to what somebody sitting across the table is
telling me and how it may impact their livelihood, may
impact their family member or friend. They know, at the
end of the day, Ryan, this is you know, know,
(55:01):
we're all in this together. It's not it's not us
as them's it's we, you know. And that's kind of
what I remind myself we in the region. I have
to come to this together and be respectful in those
conversations and and really move forward with the remedy. The
remedy is not behind us. We cannot continue to rely
(55:24):
on mitigation efforts and band aids for the impact of
the system. We've got to look to the future for
better Northwest.
Speaker 1 (55:32):
Heck. Yeah, well, thanks a much for coming on. I
know you'll you'll keep us up updated as new things
pop up. Still still a pretty long runway.
Speaker 2 (55:45):
Yeah yeah, very long, very low.
Speaker 1 (55:48):
Yeah, but it's a great conversation and hopefully folks know
a little bit more about some of the folks that
are at the table and the interests involved. At top
of that, will have a col in the Field episode
coming out on YouTube where you get to see some
(56:08):
of this firsthand and we've got some great access. And
again big big thanks to uh everybody there in the
in the Lower Snake System and the Nest Brust Tribe
and Trout Unlimited for letting us run around check stuff out.
Speaker 3 (56:26):
Yeah, thanks for coming in, uh you know, uh experiencing
it anytime.
Speaker 1 (56:32):
Uh, that's all we got for you, guys. Thank you
so much for listening. Remember to write in to ask
Cal that's a s k C a L. That's Askcal
at themeeater dot com and let me know what's going
on in your neck of the woods, and definitely let
me know what questions you have on this subject. We're
going to get into it as needed and again and again,
(56:53):
I promise, because it's a fascinating one. If you have
specific questions for Eric Craft, let me know. We can
always get him back on or we can compile those
and and answer him on the on the podcast to
thanks again, We'll talk to you next week.
Speaker 3 (57:11):
M hmmmmmm mm hm
Speaker 2 (57:18):
Hm
From Meat Eaters World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This
is Col's Week in Review with Ryan cow Klan. Here's Cal.
What is happening all you?
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Uh?
Speaker 1 (00:23):
You know Cal the Wild Cow's we can review fans
As promised, I have my friend Eric Crawford of Trout
Unlimited on the on the horn with us to go
through this incredibly huge, diverse topic of what right now
(00:43):
is a question a proposal of how and why removal
of the four Snake lower Snake River dams, uh would
make sense and and wh and and kind of like
the to how we could get those things out of
there and account for the things that we talked about
(01:05):
on the last podcast, which would be we want to
have healthy outgoing salmon and steelhead and healthy incoming salmon
and steelhead, so returning fisheries to a healthier state. We
want to figure out the big question mark of those
(01:28):
are hydro electric dams. They're creating power. How do we
replace that power? Shipping component which there's a port I
think our furthest Inland port four hundred and sixty five
miles from the ocean, so you can take an ocean
going ship all the way to Lewiston, Idaho, four hundred
(01:50):
and sixty five miles river miles inland through this system
of locks that would also go away at the four dams.
So how do you replace the shipping benefits capabilities that
are currently in place. And then one of the things
that came out of this trip to Lewiston with with
(02:15):
Eric Crawford that I, you know, just didn't quite have
any real understanding of, is this United States government obligation
to the Nez Perce people too with old to uphold
their end of a treaty, a federal agreement document between
(02:42):
the sovereign nation of the Nez person and the United
States Government that says there's going to be salmon in
the river for the people. And one of the amazing
fascinating thing that I learned speaking with Chairman Wheeler of
(03:03):
the Nezbrus tribe is that document the intent of that
document is to be upheld as if it were the
time of the signing of that treaty, which to me,
I would interpret that to mean that it's not just
(03:26):
salmon in the river, it's wild salmon in the river.
So we're not talking hatchery. Fish is like an add
on thing, a placeholder maybe, but when you're talking about
that treaty, you're talking about wildfish. So, Eric, what do
(03:51):
you do for Trout Unlimited?
Speaker 2 (03:54):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
Thanks, Ryan, I am the Snake River campaign director for
Trout Unlimited, so oversea our broader campaign within the region
to remove the four Lower Snake River dams and then
ultimately recover wild salmon a steelhead to the Snake River
basin while restoring a free flowing river in the Lower
Snake Corridor.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
And so that the way you look at it is
it is your job to promote the removal of those dams.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:26):
Yeah, that definitely is accurate, with a little bit of
a caveat that we Travel Limited really support a comprehensive solution.
So addressing all those issues that you just brought up, transportation, energy, irrigation, recreation,
none the least upholding, you know, holding the federal government
responsible for their obligations for treaty rights for the tribes
(04:51):
throughout the Columbia basin physically, you know, as we learned
last week, how important those fish are to the Nez
Perce tribe. And so all of that wrapped into one
in various aspects, whether it's outreach and engagement with local
interests representing the agricultural sector, the irrigation sector. Not only
(05:15):
our membership within to you are grassroots grasstops, but then
also all the way from local electeds up to congressionals.
So a very broad swath of duties that I helped
direct and oversee and participate in in my role as
director of the campaign.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
And yeah, I got a little foggy brain here today, folks.
But if you're fuming already listening to this, I did
forget the irrigation component, which is a huge, huge point
of concern for a lot of folks in the lower
of the Lower Snake River dams. And I say lower
(06:00):
of the Lower because that's really where the significant irrigation
withdrawal comes out of.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Correct, Yeah, that's that's correct, Ryan. It's down to the
Ice Harborpool. There's about sixty thousand irrigated acres of agriculture
down there that there needs to be a solution of
how do you get that water onto those crops in
a different system than what it is today, you know,
(06:25):
a reservoir system to a free flowing river system down there,
So a whole caveat of services that need to be replaced.
And I mean, in reality, the good news is is
that there is a very considered effort by the federal
government now through what is called the Six Sovereigns Agreement
(06:47):
and specifically US government commitments to replace the majority of
those services. So we're seeing that happening currently and so
hopefully we'll continue to see progress in that aspect. And
really this is the first time and really the history
of the Lower Snake River Dam, so about almost fifty
(07:07):
years you know, plus or minus a couple since the
completion of Lower Granite Dam, which is the upper dam
in the hydro system, that that conversation has really changed
about not just breach and not just about fish, replacement
of services and really tying it all together to put
(07:28):
our best foot forward in the region.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
And how has your best foot forward been received so far?
Speaker 3 (07:36):
Well, I mean, there definitely are there definitely are folks that,
at least in my conversations, that you know, want to
stick their head in the sand and just hope that
it goes away. You know, this discussion about breach just
goes away, and that we can just maintain the status
quo it as it is. There are others that are
(07:59):
interesting and engaging, cautiously but really those conversations have changed
tenfold since. You know, there was a progression of effort
here within the region, within the country to breach these
four Lower Snake River dams, starting all the way back
in twenty nineteen when Represented Mike Simpson.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
Of Idaho had made, you know.
Speaker 3 (08:27):
A little bit of a promise committed to restoring wild
sam and steelhead in the basin. That was during a
conference in Boise, Idaho, and that really got the conversation
going that ogs now we really do have the attention
of Congress or at least one Congressman. And then over
(08:47):
the next couple of years you really saw the conversation
start to mature, and then ultimately Representative Simpson released a proposal,
the Northwest Han Transition Proposal, which was the thirty three
billion dollar proposal to move the region away from the hydrosystem,
(09:09):
reaching the four Lower Snake River dams, providing the mechanism
or the idea of funding those replacement services, but also
economic inputs from towns throughout the base and Lewiston here
at the confluence of the Snake and clear Water all
the way down to the Tri Cities and the Pacific
(09:30):
Northwest lab investments and new energy development. It really was
a bold proposal that came out and it kind of
fell flat on its face. It was kind of surprising
that other senators and or representatives in the Northwest didn't
really lob onto. What we saw is that Senator Patty
(09:51):
Murray of Washington, Governor Jay Insley also took a lead
in a leadership role in this discussion and re evaluated
kind of what Representative Simpson had brought out and ultimately
put forth their own recommendations, one acknowledging that the only
real way to recover sam the cel it in the
basin is going to be breached those dams, but we
(10:12):
need to replace those services. Fast forward today, as I noted,
what's referred to as the six sovereigns Agreements, which is
the State of Oregon, State of Washington, the Yakama Nation,
then first Tribe, the Confederate Tribes of the I Matila,
and the Confederate Advans of the Warm Springs all reached
(10:33):
an agreement with the federal government to stay the litigation
and the Lower Snake and worked up a whole bunch
of agreements and commitments again to move this conversation forward
that was supported by the current administration, the Biden administration,
and so that's really where we are today. And we've
seen this really move along in a positive fashion and
(10:56):
replacing services. With that being said, we are still in
a situation that you know, time is of the essence
these fish, salmon, schnook salmon both spring summer falls, steelhead,
and sake. I just don't have the time. The clock
is ticking.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
You know.
Speaker 3 (11:16):
All those species are listed under the endangered Species list,
starting all the way back in ninety one with saki
and completing in ninety seven with the listing of steelhead
in the basin, and they remain there today with real
noticeable change or any kind of ability to get them
(11:38):
off the list. Right And as you mentioned in the intro,
you know, this is really about recovering wild salmon, a steelhead.
Those are the species that are listed. You know, we
can talk about actual production and why it's there and
why it ends up being you know, a placeholder for
those wild stocks, but at the end of the day,
(11:59):
we're really trying to over those wild stocks, you know,
into a into an incredible basin of habitat with huge
loss of wilderness, including the Frank Church and the Selwey
bitter Root, intact habitat. Everything is there waiting for them
to come back. It's just that right now, with the
(12:20):
hydro system as it is, despite all the mitigation efforts
and band aids that have been placed on the hydro system,
we just can't get them, get them recovered.
Speaker 1 (12:31):
And so I just want to ask you again, like
when you say that habitat is in place, that upstream
spawning habitat is what you're referring to, as well as
like the ability for the fish to travel because it
is a free flowing river above if you take like
Dworshack out of it and some old mining impoundment things
(12:55):
like thinking of like the Yankee Fork type of yeah situation,
fishcam freely travel up and downstream once they get above
Lower Granite.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
Yeah that's that's yeah, that's correct. And yeah, so lower
granted it's about seventeen miles approximately downriver from the Idaho border,
I know, Washington border. Once they get over Lower Granite
and those fish have already passed, we're just going to
talk about adults. For instance, those fish are going to
(13:31):
pass the four Lower Columbia dams and then get over
the four Lower Snake river dams and then once they're
into that at Idaho habitat, and for that matter, portions
of southeast Washington and northeast Oregon also have large expanses
of available habitat, but Idaho in particular, really right now
it's the gold standard and habitat for cold water fisheries
(13:53):
on the west coast distribution of Pacific salmon. About forty
eight percent of all available cold water habitat in the
range of Pacific salmon in the lower forty eight exists
in the Snake River basin. And even the state of
Idaho acknowledges that, you know, despite some of these impoundments
(14:13):
like door Shaft, about sixty two percent of that habitat
and Idaho is still intact and accessible for these fish.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
And that's not really by coincidence. I mean, there's a
crazy history of all sorts of different mining operations in
these tributaries, which which are would would be the spawning habitat, logging,
(14:43):
grazing in some of the like these high alpine meadows
that you in personal experience, you're walking along and you go,
holy shit, look at the size of that fish.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Yeah, And so like there's been a lot of create
changes to grazing patterns along some of those high alpine meadows,
or a switch from one set of livestock to another,
some rehabilitation stream bank, really rehabilitation and heavily logged and
(15:21):
mined areas, changes in those mining and logging practices and cash.
I think it was like during the Obama administration where
that area was circled on the map as a cold
water reserve in North America.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Right, yeah, I think that that that's accurate, and it's
you know, the highest coldest cold water habitat in the
lower forty A, you know, and that's why we trod
and limit are so adamant about, Hey, this is the
last best place to really restore and recover wild something
on its in the Snake River. And despite all those
(16:01):
you know, extractive and land use practices that has a
historically happened on the landscape, it shows that these fish
are incredibly resilient and at times can be tolerant to
those type of impacts. The one thing that they're not
tolerant and resilient to is the hydro system. But you know,
(16:25):
if we can get there, get them back, you know,
trout unlimited, we we have a very large water and
habitat restoration program across you know, the United States, but
even specifically here in Idaho with a lot of effort
going on in the upper Salmon drainage is specifically restoring
the Yankee Fork, a lot of work with our partners
(16:47):
on the Lem High which is a tributary there to
the Salmon River rate at Salmon, Idaho, all kind of
creating this perfect environment in addition to everything else that's
still wild and exile and intact for when we get
these dams out, and it ends up being a totality
of the life, life's history of a of a salmon. Right,
(17:10):
not only are we you know, trying to restore a
migration corridor, but at the same time we're providing you know,
the habitat for quality, red red building and rearing of
juveniles all the way up through the entire left history.
And so that's what's really important to recognize is that,
you know, this really is the sweets for restoration of
(17:34):
the species.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, it's a pretty unique situation where there's a literal
line on the map where you're like, okay, above here,
we're as good as things get.
Speaker 3 (17:47):
Yeah, Yeah, And I mean it's no different than you know,
a human driving out of the city. Right, It's just
like you're in Boise, Idaho. Both of you and I
have spent a considerable amount of time there, and you
think about the city when you're there, but jeez, you
drive what an hour north or northeast and you're in
(18:08):
some of the wildest country in the lower forty eight.
And that's kind of the analogy with these fish. It's
just like, hey, we can drive out of they can
swim out of the industrialized Columbia and Lower Snake and
get into you know, the best of the best of habitat.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
You got to talk about kind of the beliefs out
there that are part of the narrative to be like
highly skeptical of the efficacy of removing dams, right, And
you know, just today, you know, there was a fellow
rode in talking about Core of Engineers information saying that
(18:52):
even with the removal of the Lower four Snake River dams,
we could only see an increase of about fourteen percent
of current runs. And current runs are you know, way
below historical historical numbers, which were you know, very very high.
(19:15):
So if that's true or untrue, we should definitely cover
but Also, I think it gets into the bigger question
of just like if, k if we go through all
this work and these things are producing clean, affordable energy,
how do we know it's going to be worth it?
Speaker 2 (19:37):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (19:38):
And how do we quantify worth it?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Well?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (19:42):
And I mean when you when you try to quantify
something like this, you have to look at no different
than what you know, probably the core of engineers is
doing right now. You have to look at all aspects
of what these fish presa provide to the region. This
isn't just about providing fish for fisheries in Idaho. You know,
(20:04):
the entire Columbia system would benefit by renewed, renewed fisheries,
and so you look at the cultural, social, economic, and
ultimately biological values associated with these with these renewed runs.
And so you know, many times we place value in
the form of monetary value, but sometimes things cannot be measured.
(20:28):
I would never be able to articulate the social cultural
value with a dollar figure of what these fish provide
to say, the nez perstribe and its members in the
Upper Basin, or the Yakamas or the warm Springs or
the Yumatillas. I can look simply at some things I
(20:49):
have a friend in Chalice, Idaho and Central Idaho that
historically Chala saw pretty good runs of chinook and then
also steelhead, and their runs have really been cut short lately,
even on hatchery returns, which all these fisheries are based on.
Right now, he owns a sporting good shop has for
(21:10):
twenty years there the bent rod and he greg now
really doesn't carry that much fishing gear relating to salmon
and steelhead. It's all more of outdoor recreation broadly, you know,
hiking and camping and stuff. And so you look at
like little things like that and how that the trickle
(21:31):
economics of what those mean to river communities like Challice
and some of the other ones and riggins, and you
can put a dollar figure on that. There's been a
number of economic studies in relationship to sam and steelhead fisheries,
specifically shin At fisheries in Idaho, and it's pretty staggering
of what the economic inputs are just in Idaho. The
(21:56):
value of the electricity, I mean, the reality is the
grid is going to need more energy regardless. Those lower
Snake River dams produce on average about nine hundred and
sixty megawatts of energy is what they contribute. The real
value is on demand, so when it's super hot or
(22:16):
super cold, you know they can produce energy. But at
the same time, we're faced with the dilemma that we
need more energy in the Northwest, and so why not
invest in another source outside of the hydra system that
we can utilize and you know, put ourselves better off
(22:37):
into the future while still recovering these fish. And so
it's really hard to place those values on there.
Speaker 2 (22:44):
The other part of that.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
You know, is well are they going to restore the fish?
I think, you know, everybody needs to be aware that
the core of engineers has a vested interest.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
In these dams.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
It is very readily apparent know that they don't want to,
i think, admit that they're salmon killers or take credit
for the impacts of the intra system to the cultural
resources of the tribes throughout the region and these salmon populations.
I was at Lower Granted last week with a tour
(23:18):
with the nez Perse and it oftentimes is disturbing how
much misinformation or stretching of the truth and facts actually
is represented by core engineers. Folks multiple other ways to
get that information. Again, the core has a vested interest
in keeping those dams. You can look at the Fish
(23:40):
Passes Center, which is a conglomeration of various entities and
agencies both state and federal, that put out what's called
the Comparative Survival Study. It's an almost thirty year data
set of SAM and Steelhead survival through the hydro system
(24:01):
and evaluating all the different band aids have been put
forth as mitigation efforts, and everything comes.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Back to the reality.
Speaker 3 (24:11):
The hydro system and the dams in the hydro system
are the largest mortality factor of SAM and as Yila
and the Snake River basin. And I think, you know,
it's you got to keep it in the context. You know,
we were just talking about door Shack and some of
the impacts throughout the basin, you know, and right now
(24:32):
the bar is not to recover to historical numbers.
Speaker 2 (24:36):
The bar in.
Speaker 3 (24:37):
Reality is actually pretty low. You know. Noah, North America
are a National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration could ben the
KLUBBIA Basin Partnership Task Force through the late teens of.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Twenty.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
I guess twenty twenty one is when they they finished
up with their final report. And for example, if we
look at spring summer Chanook and the Snake Over Basin.
You know, right now, we're averaging for wild returns anywhere
from about seven thousand to ninety five hundred in the
entire basin historically, with the available habitat that is there now,
(25:22):
it was estimated that a million spring and summer chinook returned.
But what the Columbia Basin Collaborative, our partnership came up
with is low, medium and high end goals. And even
the high end goal, which is one hundred and fifty
nine thousand native origin or wild spring summer chinook, is
(25:44):
only sixteen percent of that historical value. So we're not
like reaching for the stars. It is based on the
assumption that that is what you would need to have
healthy and abundant fishery or populations that can support both
tribal and recreational fisheries. So you've really got to keep
(26:06):
it in context, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:08):
Which is hard, right because it's like, you know, like
that email I brought up, it's very much like, well,
only fourteen percent, and then on the other side of
the table, it's like, holy shit, fourteen percent would be huge.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yeah, because it's reality, it's a massive project. There's a
ton of unknowns, lots of things have to happen, and
there's four more dams below this area. Yeah right, just
for the returns that I'm talking about.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Yeah on the Columbia. Yeah that that aren't even part
of this equation. They're they're not even they're not part
of the discussion whatsoever. They actually contribute an immense amount
of power to the overall Northwest grid and are really important.
The lower Snake dams not as much, and there's a general.
Speaker 2 (27:09):
Consensus that that power can replace.
Speaker 3 (27:13):
You know, and I and I think you know people,
people have to go into this wide eyes, wide open.
I mean, I am not naive to this situation. I
live here on the Polue where all this grain is produced,
you know, that is transported through the hydrosystem.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
Although I'm not a customer.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Of BPA, I am not naive to the impacts that
these into a change in electricity production would have. And
so I yeah, I am not you know, somebody that
is foreign to all these conversations. It's something that I
take very seriously as a community member. Why I represent
(27:53):
try to unlimited but then also looking to recover these
fish and the benefits that come with them. I think
that people really have to take a bigger deep dive,
you know, which is really difficult at times to get
the most after it and correct information. Last year, I
guess it was, or it was last year or twenty
(28:15):
twenty two, Noah came out with a paper, position paper
that acknowledges the only way that we're going to recover
these fish. His breach of the four lower Snake River dams.
That is kind of that is based on the wide
amount of scientific data that is out there. It really
(28:39):
puts to bed, you know, the scientific argument that hey,
you know, hey, we need.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
To study more.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
And I hear that all the time, Well we need
to study this, we need to study that. Hey look
at look at the sea lions down below Bonaville, look
at you know, Caspian turns or the other avian predators
down on the Lower Columbia's always look at something else,
you know, don't look here at the real problem. Look
at something else.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
And try to fix that first.
Speaker 3 (29:04):
And we've been doing it for almost fifty years and
it hasn't been successful.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
And and those those predator species are growing also, they're
they're benefiting from I mean we saw it firsthand, right,
It's like you create this big turbid pool that a
bunch of disoriented fish gets shot out of a cannon basically,
(29:29):
and the birds and the walleye and the small mouth
pass or you know, lined up, ready, ready for the
food food train.
Speaker 2 (29:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:42):
The only reason that those those predators are successful is
because the system is highly modified, you know, to their
favor and to a disadvantage of salmon and steelhead.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
So I mean, I still can't get over the fact that,
like we're sitting there in the viewing window at Littwer granted,
and you know there's a thirty and shinook going upstream
with two walleye.
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Yeah, and as I told you, like that is really
a that is a really recent phenomena five years ago.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
You do go down there.
Speaker 3 (30:14):
And you'd be hard pressed to see a walleye. And
so now, I mean as we saw, I mean there
wasn't just two, you know, there were several. As we
sat there and watched that we're trying to make their
way up, you know. And so I mean, yeah, I
mean it's it's a heavily modified system.
Speaker 1 (30:34):
People are just so goofy too, Like I can't wrap
my head around the pike minto situation. I mean, I
don't think we're going to destroy pike mino, which is
a native fish and I swear to God makes great savice.
But we're actively with a reward system suppressing pike mino.
(30:57):
Well you know, there's no limits on small my pass
or Walleye, but we're not incentivizing anybody to go in
there and and take those fish. It's just, you know,
it's just odd to me. We also got Channel cap
in there, right.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Channel Cat yeah in the mix. So
uh yeah, and as our was it Jim? Was that
that our pike minow?
Speaker 1 (31:23):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (31:23):
From Jim from Florida.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
You know, as he said, you know he uh you know,
even he saw a scene a different and uh in
catch rates of pike minnow a guy that in retirement
travels from Florida and he say comes up in May?
Speaker 2 (31:40):
Is that what he said? May? And through September?
Speaker 3 (31:42):
Yeah right, and uh, camp's balilo and grantede just to
take advantage of the pike Minnow reward program. Uh in
his retirement years to stay active. And you know what
you tell us May? Yeah, yeah, got about a thou
I was in pike Mino last year, I think he's
what he told us, and that translates to about ten
(32:03):
thousand dollars in a re award system, and then this year,
you know, he has three hundred. I think pike Mino
is what he told us, And I mean and he
you know, kind of blames it on you know, Walleye
that you know, there aren't those younger year classes and
so you know, not only are walle impacting salmonds, but
(32:23):
they're also impacting other native species. So you know, none
of the least you know, pike Mino that have that
reward program.
Speaker 2 (32:31):
But you know, I.
Speaker 3 (32:32):
Often see lamprey in the in the stomach contents earlier
in the season when am seats are out migrating, and yeah,
it's it's kind of pretty crazy situation.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Yeah, and boy, the lamprey deals something we got to
get more into because that's just like such a unique deal.
Everybody thinks of, you know, invasive lamprey in the Great Lakes,
but this is a native native fish, right and it's
coming all the way, yeah, coming all you know, it's
(33:09):
spawning in the mountains, going all the way out to
the ocean and returning and it's it's just wild to see.
And that was because of the fat oil content that
was a huge, huge resource for native peoples in that
(33:30):
river system.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
Yeah, and still you know, it's significant, no longer a
significant portion of their diet, but culturally still significant, you know,
particularly the nets erst as as we learned.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Yeah, and their stories about lamp prey are that because
it is so fatty and so oily, it was the
preferred prey for predator species, and they would focus on
the lamprey going out and would ignore the salmon smolt
(34:06):
going out, which was a really interesting you know observation
oral history tidbit that we picked up. I thought that
was really cool because really that's the role, a huge
part of the role other than providing interest and recreation
and revenue of the current hatchery program, right is people
(34:30):
predate on hatchery fish let the wildfish go.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
So yeah, all fisheries within the snaker of the basin,
with a little bit of an exception, are based off
of mitigated hatchery returns.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
Yes.
Speaker 3 (34:47):
Incidentally, wildfish may be encountered and caught but cannot be retained.
All of this is based on hatchery returns and so
people often get those numbers conflated. You know, we have
some representatives to the west of me that like to
promote you know, historical runs, and some of that is
(35:07):
misinformation from the US Army Corps engineers and how they
represent fish returns and they conflate both hatchery and wild
stocks together and like to occasionally talk about how we're
seeing historical runs and returns. Well, you know, you ask
any any angler in the system and they'll tell you
(35:28):
right away that you know, a one for spring spring chinook,
a one one daily limit on spring chinook is not
a historical return really provides are they any opportunity for anybody.
But with the exception, you know, we were able to
go fall Chaduk fishing, and because of life life history
(35:50):
and survival of faul Chinook and the limited amount of
habitat now that they actually have available to them, you
can actually harvest and add intact, intact fish in your
three fish daily limit as we saw when we were out.
And so that is kind of the exception. No fisheries
(36:11):
on snake over Saki, all steelhead fisheries are based on
how to returns, and so again it really you know,
you can get super focused and just really think about
your tiny little window of opportunity if your steelhead angler
and not really pay attention at these you know, well,
(36:31):
what are the wild stocks doing? You know, what are
lamprey doing? You know who else benefits from these fish?
And it really is an incredible opportunity and story that
these fish provide to the region.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Heck yeah, yeah, you know, I'd off the air listeners.
We were talking about an uncle of mine. He's dying
of cancer. And I had just come back from this
trip with with Eric and we managed to catch had
a huge chinook. I took a couple of flays over
(37:08):
here and and he was able he's you know, lifelong
outdoors mun and was able to show him the picture
and he goes, holy shit. And I was able to
get a few bites some of that big chinook salmon
down the other night. So that was that was pretty cool.
(37:29):
So that yeah, that that fish is still still providing.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
Yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
And I said something similar when that fish finally got
close to the boat with as large as it.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Was, Yeah yeah, yeah, and four hundred and sixty five
miles from the ocean, it's just like such an amazing,
amazing animal.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Right, yeah, yeah, And that's the you know, that's really
the crazy thing about it. Yeah, we encountered it and
you're able to catch it at you know, approximately four
sixty five of river miles from the Pacific. But you know,
it already made one trip out as a small spent
you know, anywhere three to five years, which judged by
that the size of that fish it was on that
(38:12):
you know, cuss of being a five five ocean fish
and five year old fish, and so it you think
about how much time it's spent in the out in
the ocean and back probably.
Speaker 1 (38:23):
Up in southeast Alaska.
Speaker 2 (38:25):
And yeah, and yeah, dodged.
Speaker 1 (38:28):
Quite a few flashers and herring being drifted out there,
as well as some nets and yep, and then all
the orcas and pinna pads and ah managed to go through.
Speaker 3 (38:45):
Eight dams, managed to yeah, wits, managed to go.
Speaker 1 (38:51):
Through all the way out all the way back in so.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Yep, and then slipped up with old Ryan Callahan.
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Yep. Yeah. Yeah, it's wild, it really is. There's a
good conversation going around right now. It seems like people
are by and large a little more willing to kind
of be at the table, but kind of where where
(39:22):
are we at is this a like if we had
a call to action today, what would it be.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Yeah, the call to action is really to engage with
congressional your congressional representation, both Housing and Senate. And the
reason being is that these fish are these dams are
congressionally authorized. We're congressionally authorized in the nineteen forty Safe
(39:49):
Rivers and Harbors Act and need to be congressionally authorized
for removal. All this effort really right now that we
see with the administration and the US government agreement with
the six sovereigns is in preparation to really get that authorization.
But congressmen and women need to know that people support
(40:13):
recovery of salmon and steelhead in the basin. Again, this
isn't just about you know, Idaho fish. These fish provide
an opportunity throughout the entire Columbia below the snake and
out into the ocean fisheries. They're not just an Idaho resource.
They're you know, really an American resource that shouldn't be
(40:34):
taken for granted. As you noted that that false chinook
you know, probably was in in southeast Alaska at one
point in time, but at the same time those fall chinook,
they stay fairly close to the coast, and some go south,
you know, all the way to northern California, and others
go north. Each of these species have different ocean life
(40:55):
fisheries that take them all the way up into the
Gulf of Alaska all the way back and providing opportunity everywhere.
And that really has been going on, you know, really
since the advent of civilization. I you know, we had
an interaction with an individual at Lower Grantede, you know,
(41:15):
that claimed that this land these fish belonged to somebody else,
you know, and didn't really understand why the nett Pers
wanted are all back. And I reminded him, as I've
been taught by Charmy Wheeler the next Perst tribe, that
there is documented history of the nest person being here
(41:38):
for sixteen thousand years, so you know, they really were
the first ones here. And so you know, and that's
really this real long story of the opportunities that these
fish provided for the various cultures.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
Yeah, I mean, and I'm not jumping over that's an
amazing fact. You know. The I always want to say
Bonner's ferry, but it was Glenn's ferry, right.
Speaker 3 (42:05):
Is Yeah, Yeah, Now you say that I'm not sure
there is documentation within the snake right here that is
sixteen thousand years.
Speaker 1 (42:14):
Yeah, sixty five hundred, I believe, which is unreal. Right,
Like as far as like first peoples on the continent,
right we always talk like Beringia the land bridge and
those numbers don't drive.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Well, no they don't, not with that historical record.
Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah, Chairman Wheeler did point out that He's like, that's
just where they stopped digging right right there. There could
be a lot more to the story, and I'm sure
there is. But you know that like food security, food sovereignty,
that one fish, three of us eight on really just
(42:58):
one flay. I cooked two flays, but we ate one
file a piece of a file. At the other night,
Tyler Emmett and read more, they both got a couple
of flays a piece. Jason producer Jason Rari got a
couple of flays. I have more in the freezer right now.
(43:20):
Like one fish provides a lot, and I didn't you know,
I didn't make stock out of the bones or anything
like that. We scraped all the burger off, but there
still was more to be done with with that fish
if you wanted to do it. So, I mean, it's
it's a lot of return for one of those fish,
and I think about that a lot. You know, it's
(43:42):
especially when they're in numbers. You know, we always used
to joke in the guiding days when we'd have people
be like, yeah, I just want to learn to fly
cast well enough to catch fish in Alaska, and we'd
be like, well, you're there, because the thing, the dirty
secret about Alaska is there's so many fish you don't
need to be great at fishing. Yeah, yeah, And so
(44:06):
providing that like food opportunity in these rivers that are accessible,
there's so much public land right down to the river's edge,
the river is public. You're providing people with some real independence,
way life type independence if we can get these returns
(44:28):
back high enough, right.
Speaker 3 (44:31):
Yeah, and even right now, Ryan, Really it's people kind
of misunderstand this whole what we're fishing on. You know,
I tried to articulate it earlier, but you know, these
are mitigated hattery returns, mitigated for the impacts of the
lower snake to produce opportunity. That's what hatchery fisher here
(44:53):
for is opportunity. And even in low run years, you know,
these are so heavily regulated and managed that when there
are opportunities for seasons, I highly encourage people to get
out there and fish for these hatchery stock.
Speaker 2 (45:11):
One.
Speaker 3 (45:12):
They provide incredible table fair, you know, and as we talked,
I mean you could live off sam in the entire year,
competitive on you know, these runs and the cycle of runs,
and they are incredible table fair. And so this isn't
about like, oh, let's just let all those close down
the fisheries and that'll help them recover. Well that's not
(45:35):
the case, not the case at all. Those fish are
there mandatory mitigation from Congress of all people to the
Northwest Power apt to provide opportunity and take advantage of
that opportunity when it's available.
Speaker 1 (45:52):
It's so crazy too, because it's so highly hands on manipulated,
Like the effort involved beyond the fish doing what fish
do is pretty insane. Like the fish ladder system, the
(46:13):
willingness to truck fish pipefish into a truck truck fish
above below dams. It is a hands on. They're damn
near close enough to have like a barcode on each
fish that you could scam.
Speaker 3 (46:32):
Well, I mean they almost literally have a barcode on
each fish in the form of either code or buyer
tag from hatchery fish, and another portion of wild and
hatchery fish have passive integrated tags. And that's why we
you know, your point, so heavily managed. It is insane
(46:53):
to know how well managers fisheries managers throughout the basin
this basin particular, can predict run numbers, can update run
numbers through the course of the system. Never mind, here
in Idaho they do genetic stock indexing on all wildsown
onits so spring, summer, schnook, and the steelhead stocks that
(47:19):
they can trace these individuals back to a specific drainage
because of historical genetic data that they have. The same
thing occurs tracing back individuals to hatchery parentage through fin
clips and genetics. And that's the thing, I mean, this
(47:40):
is what we've come to to manage this population is technology,
genetics and band aids. And we know enough about the system,
We know enough about the mortality factors to know what
direction we need to go, and that really.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Is the removal of those fish.
Speaker 3 (47:59):
But in the meantime, you know, yep, take advantage of
the opportunities as they exist. I mean, you know, the
last Sunday, we were you know, out there with shoot
one hundred plus other other friends, right, and you really
saw what what these fish mean to some of these communities.
Speaker 1 (48:20):
Oh for sure. And you know that's where we talk
about there's going to be a massive cost associated with
everything if we're transitioning away from hydro power to replace
it with small scale nuclear reactors, wind solar. Big cost
(48:45):
on a lot of levels involved with that. Beefing up
rail or trucking to compensate for the shipping of goods
on barges. A lot of costs associated with that. The irrigation,
what that's going to look like. Are there going to
(49:08):
be new wells pumps, you know, aqua bypass projects. Lots
of cost associated with that. But one of the things
that is like amazing to me and truly intriguing about
the story is the tribe then Espers. They get a
lot of money to run these hatcheries, and they're the
(49:33):
first ones in line saying like, yeah, it'd be great
to shut these things down.
Speaker 3 (49:38):
Yeah yeah, I mean they're they're dedicated to the recovery, right,
And just to backup about the cost, you know, I
think the listeners would be naive to think that this
cost there is zero cost right now as a system
is operated. The systems, you know, incredibly expensive to run,
(50:01):
you know, incredible upfront investments in building these dams and
continue operation and maintenance of these dams. It's estimated that
twenty four billion dollars has been put forth in various
mitigation efforts because of these dams. A full third of
(50:22):
rate payers bills go towards mitigation efforts, and so really
at the end of the day, it comes back to
reimagining how we spend this money. Can we transition what
these expenses are today to something different in the future,
And I think the answer is yes, yes we can
(50:42):
while still benefiting from recovered population of sam in the
seal head.
Speaker 1 (50:47):
Pretty cool. I think, you know, one of the largest
hurdles here is just the not knowing what it really
looked like, right Like, there's a lot of little speak
with a bunch of people that we did in all
the communities and conversations that I've had outside of that,
you know, you get all these like oh yeah, but
(51:08):
what if and it's not like a real firm this
is what I'm hanging my hat on type of statement.
I think it's just really a little placeholder to just
kind of be like, well, how many fish are we
talking about? Because you know, if it was like if
there was a way to just like properly equate it
(51:30):
and be like, okay, historical looked like this in this system,
that fishing hole that you go to all the time
would look like this from time to time, right, or
that trip up to Alaska or that scene out of
the National Parks documentary or whatever, like, this is what
it would look like at certain times of the year.
(51:51):
People would you know, if you could guarantee that, like,
people would be like, oh, now, I get it type
of thing. But you know, we're just so far removed
from that in that system.
Speaker 2 (52:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:03):
Yeah, And you know, as we you know, previously talked,
I mean, there's no guarantees of mother nature. It doesn't
it doesn't matter what species you're talking about. There's just
no guarantees. Yeah, in this equation. The one guarantee that
is out there is that if you do remove those dams,
replacing all the services associated with it, you have removed
(52:27):
that mortality factor that is guaranteed. Right how mother nature reacts,
We have you know, somewhat of a historical reference now
with the removal the Elwah Dam over on the Olympic Peninsula,
the current removal of the Klimate dams in northern California
(52:47):
and southern Oregon, that'll show us and are continually showing
us that, boy, you get out of the way of
these salmon the steelhead and they will rebound. The river
will will cleanse itself and recover itself in due time,
the ecosystem will heal itself and be as robust as
(53:08):
it was once was before man got in the way.
And so we do have those track records in those examples,
even here on the West coast, that that will prove that,
you know, there is a lot of opportunity here in
the Snake.
Speaker 1 (53:24):
And so one more time for us, Eric, if folks
want to learn more, do some of their own research.
Read up on you know, kind of the high level
things that we hit on today, like where's the best
place to go?
Speaker 3 (53:39):
Yeah, so we try to limit it. Of course, have
a sneaker of a campaign landing page. It's to you
dot org for slash Lower Snake. I'd encourage you also
to look at the Columbia Basin Partnership Paskforce final Phase
two report that really lines out a lot of this
conversation lines out the quantitative goals for various fish stocks
(54:06):
throughout the Columbia Basin. You know, do your own research,
you know, don't just take take.
Speaker 2 (54:12):
My word for it. I encourage everybody to come to their.
Speaker 3 (54:15):
Own conclusion, you know, with with or write about right
amount of data and information from both sides of it. Again,
I live here, uh, you know, I am ground zero
for this conversation. And and don't take it lightly, you know. Yeah,
I'm an avid angler. I work for Drod un Limited.
We're all about recovering wild wild sam in the Steelhead.
(54:38):
And but at the same time, I walk into this conversation,
in every conversation with my eyes wide open and know
and listen to what somebody sitting across the table is
telling me and how it may impact their livelihood, may
impact their family member or friend. They know, at the
end of the day, Ryan, this is you know, know,
(55:01):
we're all in this together. It's not it's not us
as them's it's we, you know. And that's kind of
what I remind myself we in the region. I have
to come to this together and be respectful in those
conversations and and really move forward with the remedy. The
remedy is not behind us. We cannot continue to rely
(55:24):
on mitigation efforts and band aids for the impact of
the system. We've got to look to the future for
better Northwest.
Speaker 1 (55:32):
Heck. Yeah, well, thanks a much for coming on. I
know you'll you'll keep us up updated as new things
pop up. Still still a pretty long runway.
Speaker 2 (55:45):
Yeah yeah, very long, very low.
Speaker 1 (55:48):
Yeah, but it's a great conversation and hopefully folks know
a little bit more about some of the folks that
are at the table and the interests involved. At top
of that, will have a col in the Field episode
coming out on YouTube where you get to see some
(56:08):
of this firsthand and we've got some great access. And
again big big thanks to uh everybody there in the
in the Lower Snake System and the Nest Brust Tribe
and Trout Unlimited for letting us run around check stuff out.
Speaker 3 (56:26):
Yeah, thanks for coming in, uh you know, uh experiencing
it anytime.
Speaker 1 (56:32):
Uh, that's all we got for you, guys. Thank you
so much for listening. Remember to write in to ask
Cal that's a s k C a L. That's Askcal
at themeeater dot com and let me know what's going
on in your neck of the woods, and definitely let
me know what questions you have on this subject. We're
going to get into it as needed and again and again,
(56:53):
I promise, because it's a fascinating one. If you have
specific questions for Eric Craft, let me know. We can
always get him back on or we can compile those
and and answer him on the on the podcast to
thanks again, We'll talk to you next week.
Speaker 3 (57:11):
M hmmmmmm mm hm
Speaker 2 (57:18):
Hm
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