June 11, 2025 • 63 mins
This week, Tony interviews MeatEater's Max Barta. They discuss how Max went about getting his first real bird dog, and what it took to develop her into an asset in the duck blind.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, everyone, Welcome to the Foundations podcast. I'm your host
Tony Peterson, and today I'm talking to meat Eater's very
own Max Barta about the obligation we have to our
dogs to try to develop them in the best way possible.
So this is a fun one today. I actually met
(00:23):
Max through meat Eater here. He's been a videographer with
us for a couple of years. Super good guy. We
filmed some deer hunts together and I found out pretty
quickly that Max is crazy passionate about bird dogs and
he has an awesome dog, Ruby, who not only did
he train himself, but it's his first real bird dog
and she's an amazing dog. So I wanted to kind
(00:45):
of get his process on how did he get the dog,
how do you learn to train, and how did he
how did he go about developing this dog to be
so special, which is what we cover in pretty deep detail,
go into steadiness, recall, just different methods and just a
lot of really good, useful information here from somebody who's
(01:06):
young but went through the process the right way. So
I think there's a ton to learn here and I
think you're gonna really like it. Max Barta, how are
you today, Buddy.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Tony psha, I'm doing well?
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Are you good? For the listeners? Before I get into this,
Max and I go way back. We actually spent ten
days together filming some hunting shows two years ago, and
we got to be, I would say, the best of friends.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, I would say.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
So. I made you climb into a tree stand for
the first time in your life in the pitch black,
and what was amazing is I've never had this happen.
I sent you up into the stand because the cameraman
always goes in first, and I could actually hear a
little bit of p dribbling down the steps because you
were so scared.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yes, do you remember that that did not happen? But sure,
and I had.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
To give you some wipes when we got up there,
and that was really awkward.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
No, that did not happen.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
But that did not happen. We actually had great hunts
hunted with my daughter. Got to watch her. She was
a spike. She was super happy I shot a deer.
But that's not what I want to talk to you about.
You have you know, we have this big initiative going
on at meat Eaither where we're finally taking dogs. Seriously,
I know we've had this foundation's podcast. I know, right,
(02:23):
this is what they hired me for like four years ago.
And Steve Ranella was like, we talk about cats, we
don't talk about dogs. And finally I went over as
head to the CEO and here we are, but out
of everyone in this office, and there are dogs in
this office constantly. We're out in Bozeman right now, out
of everyone here. I mean, people know callan snort. But
(02:46):
you and Ruby have showed up in a lot of
different hunts, a lot of hunts with Steve. She's an
amazing dog, and that's what I wanted to talk to
you about. You're a young fella, but that dog is
such a sweetheart, legit, and I just wanted to go
through a little bit about your process of how you
got her and you trained her yourself, which is where
I really want to go with this because when you
(03:09):
see I think when a lot of people see a
dog like her, they would assume, you know, especially a
guy in the industry, that you ship that dog off,
had somebody else do all the work. You brought it back,
followed the rules, and there you go. A great dog,
but you did it all yourself. And we're going to
get into that, But I want to go back to
the beginning. Have you always had dogs?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Yeah, I guess. I we had a family dog. I
wouldn't say it was like a true hunting dog when
I was middle school high school. It was a GSP
and we got it as a family dog. But then
also like my dad and I kind of half ass
(03:50):
trained it to be a hunting dog.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
So was the idea with this dog more to be
a house dog or more to be a hunting dog. Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I would probably say like seventy thirty seventy percent house
dog thirty percent hunting dog.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Right, So if you if you're leaning that way, you
have to get a hunting breed, yeah, right, but it
might not be a hunting dog.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
So, I mean you see so many dogs out there
that are like a hunt and breed, but they don't
do much hunting. And like at the time when we
really got them, like I couldn't drive myself, and so
like I would, I couldn't take it hunting myself otherwise
it would have you know, So yeah, it was like
like I said, it was like seventy percent family dog,
thirty percent hunting dog.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
And so did you train that dog.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Uh No, we shipped it off okay for like four
months its first year it we brought it back and
then that was it.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
No more training, no more training. Uh Who? So was
it your dad's idea to get a GSP?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
I think it was like that time where it was
just like, oh we saw an advertisement, it's cheap, it's
a GSP.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
We can hunt over it. Like, let's get it.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
What were you gonna hunt with it? Peasants?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Peasants?
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, And so you shipped it off. It got trained
to some level.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
To some level, and like it was just like I
don't know, there was like many things wrong with him,
so like what like he would like have the natural
ability to point find birds.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
And but like just lack of retrieving.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
You shoot a bird, he would go to it, look
at you and be like, hey, the bird's right here,
and not bring it back to you. You would go
out and pick it up, and then he would go
look for another one.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
So could you toss a bumper for that dog and
have it bring it back or no?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
A little bit, nothing too serious, so nothing like a
lab you know, right, So it was just like I
don't know, it was just like I said, like he
could find birds and you could shoot birds over him,
but you would have to find that dead bird right
at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
So I mean that is a that is not an
uncommon story.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Oh no, especially like being like a father and a
son too and just want something that does.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
The bear minimument is like.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Perfect, you know, right, But I mean I mean from
the perspective of a GSP that we'll do everything but that, yeah,
you know, and that's I mean, that's something we talk
about a lot, and I mean you have to be
a little bit careful because people get really worked up
about different breeds. But it's like that's just a consideration
for that breed in general. Like there are some gsps
that are going to retrieve, like fiends, but there's like,
(06:21):
like you mentioned labs, which we'll get into, but you're
way less likely to just go get a lab that
won't retrieve than a GSP, right, Like that's just how
it goes. So you didn't put any Like you guys
didn't put any real work into that. After you got
it back, it.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Was like it was kind of shocking, to be honest
with you, And like the only training we did was
like we took it hunting and see how he performed,
you know, right, that was.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
It and he performed like a dog that was raised
that way. Yeah, how did you go? So there's a
there's a general progression with a lot of people right
where it's like our breed loyalty comes from some exposure
to something, and it's it's kind of wild because it's like,
we don't look at dogs like we're gonna freaking love
(07:06):
every one of them to death, but we do. So,
you know, you get exposure to Golden Retrievers when you're
ten years old because your uncle has one or whatever.
That's the first dog you hunt over. Some people never deviate.
They're like, I am a Golden Retriever guy till I die,
you know, And I've always I went through that route
with my first dog, and I ended up with black
(07:28):
labs that I have right now, and I kind of
always thought I would because of my uncle and who
I hunted with growing up. He always had black labs.
But it's like a very common progression for people to
follow some line like that. But you didn't, So, you know,
and did that dog. Did that experience with that dog
(07:50):
point you in a different direction, or was it your
level waterfall.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Honestly, like I mean Toby, that was the GSP family
dog growing up. It wasn't really like he deviated my
plan as far as like what dog to get.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
It was just like my.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Passion for waterfall hunting just took like an extreme mountain climb.
Like it was just like waterfall hunting or nothing. You
know what why just because like I was just like, well,
so like the way I got into hunting was like
my grandpa peasant hunted, so my dad Fezant hunted, so
I Pezant hunting.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
You know. They weren't really big duck hunters.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Until like I kind of got brought up into I
would say, I shouldn't say got up broad. But I
had a mentor that took me duck hunting, and like
I fell in love with it.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Who was that?
Speaker 2 (08:42):
His name is Joe Flatland.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
What was he to you? What was he to me?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
He was honestly just a guy I pestered on Facebook
to like take me hunting.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
And we went to the same high school.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
He was probably like five or six years older than me,
but I alway knew him and he was a great
photographer and I had a passion for photography too, and
like I just pestered the crap out of him to
take me duck hunting, and like he killed a lot
of birds too, But it was something funny. We never
really ran dogs on any of those hunts when I
(09:13):
was like really getting into waterfall.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
So okay, lay out that scenario for me then, Like
what kind of hunting are you doing with a guy
who's obviously pretty hardcore who's not running dogs?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Field hunting?
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Okay, yeah, a lot of cornfields, a lot of wheat fields,
but yeah, just field hunting mostly, so like you don't
necessarily need a dog, you know, right?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
What was that his rationale?
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Like you, I honestly don't know. We just never used
dogs too much, you know. I don't know if he
was wasn't exposed to it at his age growing up
or what, but yeah, we just never really used dogs.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
So you grew up kind of as a pheasant hunter, yep,
you know, started getting the bug a little bit. There
you go get to hunt with this guy finally takes
you along, which is there's a pretty good lesson there.
I mean, I'm not I'm not condoning reaching out to
random people, even if even acquaintances on social media and
(10:11):
pestering them till you take them hunting or they take
you hunting. But that kind of thing where you know,
and this applies to dog training in a major way,
Like this is this has happened to me a lot
where I've been around people who really knew dog training
and really knew dogs, where when you get exposure to
that world, now all of a sudden, you never see
it the same way again, because you know, like what's
(10:33):
possible and what's out there, and when you see somebody
who's like a master of that craft or just crazy
into it, it's like, Okay, now I've now I have
a different vision for how this could be for me
for the rest of my life. Act So he was
like that for you without the dogs.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Yeah, exactly, and like and honestly, like the whole like
dog thing didn't really hit me until I dropped out
of college. I actually start or did filming, and that's
that was my first like big boy job. I was
like filming for a Waterfall TV show and we had
a dog on the TV show and that really kind
(11:13):
of sparked my passion. I was like, yeah, I'm gonna
get a lab someday.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
When when was that? When did that whole thing?
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Like that was when I was I wasn't even twenty
one yet. I was like nineteen twenty years old when
I first started filming that Waterfall show. And I did
that for I don't know, about four or five years.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
So it was watching that dog work, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Mean it was just like being around dogs and like
seeing the bond that could happen with a man and a.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Dog, right, yeah. And then like when shoot, it was like.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Probably my third season, third or fourth season filming that show,
and like that's when I got Ruby right.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Up, So you you got the cut the Waterfall bug
hard found your way into the industry filming, which a
lot of people do, and that is a gig that
a lot of people dream of.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Yeah, it's a really blessing and a curse honestly.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Right, And then they get into it and they're like, oh,
I'm going to be on the road for sixty days
in a row now, and my days are going to
be real long. And it's not a it's generally a
young man's game. Oh for sure, we don't. When you
when you look behind the scenes of what we do
here at Meat Eater, you don't see a lot of
gray hair behind the camera. Yeah, so you you get
(12:38):
that exposure and you decide it's lab time. How'd you
find Ruby? Did you find a litter?
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Just like being in the industry, I knew this one guy.
This is one gentleman that did some litters on the
side and just always stayed in touch.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
And he kind of passed me. He's like, hey, when
you're you gonna get a dog? When are you going
to a dog?
Speaker 3 (12:56):
And then like he had this one litter and I
wasn't planning on getting a dog and he goes, hey, Max,
listen to me, you should get this dog. And I
trusted him and he's I was really passionate about this
litter and he thought this letter could do great things.
(13:17):
And yeah, basically I was like, okay.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
What what was it about that dog?
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Just the blood Yeah, just the bloodline where it came from.
He ah, well you probably know this line. The dad
is Snapper, very famous in central Minnesota. Like he's had
many many letters. So Ruby's a Snapper puppy, Okay, And
like I didn't really understand what a Snapper puppy was
(13:48):
until like I really saw he got going and was
in the hunt test World for a little bit, and
people would come up to me and was like, is
that a snapper puppy? And I was like, yeah, how'd
you know that? It's weird kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
So how could they tell?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Probably just the looks, honestly, wasn't how she performed.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Well.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
I mean she did perform really well too, but right, yeah,
like like don't give me like I shouldn't say like
I'm a professional in the dog Hunt test World or
anything like that, but like, yeah, it's like it's weird.
Like I didn't have a lot of experience, but like
the people that would come up to me had boat
loads more experience than I would.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Right, So right, so back us up a second. Yep,
you weren't really planning on getting a dog now, so
you didn't have You weren't like it's got to be
a yellow female. No, you were just like, at some
point I will get a lab right, and it'll be
probably have some good blood in it. But you it
sounds like you got pretty lucky with that connection. And
(14:51):
he was like, hey, this is the one. So you
get that puppy? Was what was it eight weeks old
when you got it? Was it older?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
It was probably yeah, right around eight weeks.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
How long How long did you have to prepare for it?
So when he's like, hey, you gotta get this dog,
like he he convinces you that this is the one
you're going to take. Where were you at, like time
wise before you picked that dog up?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Honestly, probably a month?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah, what'd you do? Started reading?
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Started doing research, watched every single piece of content I could,
and just like fully like put myself in the shoes
of a new dog owner, you know, right, and like
I wanted to treat this dog.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
The best way I could.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
And yeah, I just really fully dove deep and learned
a lot.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Did you feel pressure because I've I've felt this, you know,
I've talked about this before on here where you know,
I'm buddies with Docins, so when I need a puppy,
he sources the blood for me, and I always feel
like a huge added sense of pressure. Yeah, to not
have a dog that sucks because of that. Did you
feel that knowing like you knew you were getting something
pretty good, like or you at least knew the potential
(16:05):
was very real. Did you feel like an added sense
of pressure there were you just like I just have
to do right by this dog, and I want a
badass dog.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Not really, it was like more so just like I've
been around a lot of dogs through the filming world,
and I've seen great dogs, I've seen the worst dogs.
I've seen it all, and like I wanted to kind
of pride myself in like, hey, this dog has potential.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
I don't want to let it down.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Like I want a good dog that's gonna make me proud,
and basically just yeah, I wanted to basically just live
up to that potential of that dog.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Right. So when you when you're in that month window
where you're like, oh shit, I'm getting a dog, I
gotta be I got to know something about what I'm
gonna do. Is there Do you remember any like content,
anything you read, anything you saw where you were like
that person or that thing. I'm like, I'm taking that,
like I'm going to use that. Do you remember anything specific?
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Well, a big part of like my training was Bill Hillman.
Have you seen some of his videos on YouTube. They
are the oldest videos and he is like, I mean
he's old of age, you know, but they are the
corniest videos, cheesiest videos, But they are so good, impactful
of information, and like I was like basically just watching
(17:30):
those videos very religiously and taking everything I could from them.
And so, like going back to your questions about like
anything specific everything, I mean, there wasn't one thing that
stood out where I was like, oh, this is important.
It was all important to me, you know, all from
(17:51):
the basics of like oh, basic obedience to eclor conditioning
to whistle stops.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Everything was important.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
So there's a there's sort of an interesting thing out there,
you know. I mean there's so much content, so much yeah,
and there's so many there's like old guard trainers and
new guard trainers, right, and you know a lot of
the new trainers like have a chip on their shoulder
and they want to prove to the world, you know,
like that they can do this. And you know, every
generation changes things, right, Like they if you went back
(18:23):
three generations to go to dog trainers, people be horrified. Yeah,
you know, that's that's how it goes. But there's there's
something about and this is going to seem so obvious,
but there's like something about those people who have had
their hands on so many dogs, you know, not they
don't have to necessarily be like a a peer retriever trainer, right,
(18:43):
like just a dog tain trainer that has the decades
of reps where especially when you're talking like puppy behavior
and foundational stuff and some of these things like you
just can't screw up gunfire, intro water, whatever, where it's
like it doesn't really change. It's like man, you know,
like there's like a little subtleties and stuff, but when
it comes from a source like that, it's usually just
(19:06):
like so ubiquitous. It's like across the board with puppies,
and it's so important to learn.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Yeah, And like another big thing for me was like
I was always told like each dog is different, and
so you can't take just one training method, right, So
like the analogy I always used, like two plus two
is four, but also four plus zero is four, and
also three plus one is four. There's so many different
(19:33):
ways to like navigate to accomplish one goal, and there's
just different paths to get there, right, And so I
was using three or four different training modules or just
like training methods, and like I figured out what not
only worked best for me, but also worked best for
the puppy.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
When you bring that puppy home and you've got it,
and you're like, Okay, I've been I've been just like
feverishly devouring information on this. What did you do in
the first month.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
In the first month, just nothing serious, just had fun
with it, let the puppy grow basic obedience, you know,
just like just your all your basic stuff, and like
I really didn't get too serious with anything until like
that four six month range, you know, because like the
(20:31):
basic stuff is your rock to any everything. You know,
I can see stuff that I did when she was
a puppy that I still do with her now, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
So it was the classic.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Sit place was place is huge, you know, Yeah, I
mean just those two basic ones sit uh in place
where the biggest things and like obviously getting the dog
to know it's name too is like huge, and like
that will come.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
But well, and that leads to the eye contact and
the basics of hand signals and all that stuff. That
place training. You know, we just had Jordan Horrock on
and he's really he's got his Cado boards like that, dude. Know,
it's place training that I kind of I'm starting to
sort of believe that like that might be the most
(21:24):
underrated aspect of training that you can do with with
not even just hunting dogs, but most dogs. Yeah, Like
I've I've been messing around training some non hunting dogs
for people where I live, and I just started working
with this King Charles Spaniel, which is a dog that
has been it's a year old and it's on its
(21:46):
third home. And this woman asked me to help her
because she's her dad found this dog, got it for
her kids. She's not in a position to have this dog.
But she's like, I'm not giving up on this dog,
Like this is this is going to be its home
in Her kids are bonded to it like it was.
It just is what it is, and you know, the
just talking to her, she's like, he's stubborn, tons of
(22:08):
energy right on down the line. Started to get a
little nippy with some of the people coming to her house,
and in my head, I was like, oh, there's like
a it's gonna be rough. It's gonna be a tough one, yeah,
a challenging one. So right before I flew out here,
I met her at a park and I brought a
cado board. I brought a thirty foot check cord and
I'm like, I'm just gonna hang with this dog and
(22:29):
just see that dog was placed, was placing for me,
and I was using treats. But still ten minutes after
I got there and she was like, I cannot believe this.
I'm like, you have a little working dog here that
has had no structure, has had no stability.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
I had no job maybe too.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Write no confidence, which is a big one. And just
anchoring that dog's attention with a placeboard, you could feel
it like shift. I mean it know. I maybe spent
an hour with that dog and I started with that
just to see because I could see it would sit,
like if I get its attention, it would sit and
do a few basic things, so it wasn't like total
(23:09):
blank slate. Took it for a walk, let it run
around a little bit, brought it back and did place
and it immediately recognized that. And I was like, you don't.
I don't think you have a stubborn dog here. I
think you you looked at this dog and thought it
was stubborn because you doesn't do what you wanted to do,
but you just you just didn't know how to ask
it the right questions yet. But even just seeing the
(23:29):
way that that dog related to that place board was
such an eye opener. And you see that with you know,
young dogs, if you work that that is like a
can be such a positive association. It's such a signal
to them that like good stuff's gonna happen and you're
gonna earn it and they love that. So that's that's
interesting to hear.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Yeah, And like, especially when you have a puppy, if
you make training like the highlight of their day, they're
gonna want to train every single day, you know, which
I think is a big like making everything fun and
exciting and like I said, like whatever that objective is,
whether it's place training for setch just fetch, you know,
make it the best thing ever for that dog.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Right, And that's I mean, it's that's like we look
at it and go, well, I want to train my
dog because I want my dog to be good at
this and this and this. But when you say that,
what you're saying is I'm building that team. Yeah, that
bomb and that dog wants that team like it doesn't
(24:31):
want you just to be the boss, like it wants
to work for you. And when you start that off
like right off the bat and condition them to like, hey,
you're going to interact with me in a way that's
gonna be fun, and you're gonna get rewards and we
are going to be like we are working together. It's
not just me showing up and like you got to
run through these drills and like, I mean, you can
get a dog someplace with that. But it's if you
(24:52):
look at it that way, like as the team aspect,
and it's like you're instilling in that dog from eight
weeks on that you are the source of that structure,
but also that fun tied into the structure and their
ability to please you or like their their opportunity. It's
a game changer for the rest of their life. It
literally sets them up to be better dogs and more
confident dogs forever for sure. Yeah, So when you got Ruby,
(25:14):
you weren't working at Mediator yet. You were working in
the industry doing some filming and stuff. But you had
no idea that you would have to train that dog
to the point where you were going to take it
with Steve Vanella and film in and it was gonna
end up on Netflix.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
No, well she never ended up knowing Netflix.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
She did it.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
No, I mean we've done some stuff with Steve, like
just like fun fun hunts and like some stuff on
YouTube like the busting and the boys stuff right took
Cowetzel country music artists out. That was pretty sweet. But yeah, no,
I like never in my world did I thought I
(25:55):
was ever gonna run that dog with as many people
and as I have in like as many places as
I have either.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Does does it make you nervous taking that dog out
with you? Know what I mean? Because this is you know,
you talk about taking cod busts with the boys, like
this is a weird scenario. For Like, it's probably kind
of hard for people to understand that you might be
come into the office and find out that next week
(26:23):
you're hunting with three dudes you've never met for some
kind of project or something, and you're running your dog
and your dog is going to be like a central.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Part of that. I mean.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Not really, No, I wouldn't say it makes me nervous,
Like I mean, my first instincts are like, is she
gonna be safe?
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Are we gonna have fun?
Speaker 1 (26:47):
You know? Like, well, I mean that's that's part of
what I mean. Yeah, yeah, I know. I mean you
want your dog to perform for sure, Like when you're
in that situation, you don't want your dog to you
don't want the wheels to fall off. But also hunting
with people you don't know with your.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
Dog, Yeah, that part sometimes makes me nervous for sure, right, yeah,
but that all goes to like proper training, like not
breaking you know, and like setting some rules with those
hunters too. Is like, hey, when I send that dog,
no more shooting, right, you.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Know, does everybody follow the rules as they always have?
They always followed the rules.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Yes, for the most part, I've never had any like
big scares or close calls like that knock on wood, right,
And so I'm super thankful for that. But yeah, I've
like and like another big thing is like hunting with
a small group of people, like everything's controlled, it's nothing
(27:48):
too crazy. Yeah, because like once you get with those
larger groups of people, that's when there's lots of gun infractions.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
You would say, right, you know, yeah, that can be
a rough situation. But that's I mean, you brought up
something there that's like super important. I think, you know,
if I've written about this a ton, but I think
the two hardest things to train into a dog, or
like at least two that are way up at the
top of the list are steadiness and recall. You know,
(28:18):
like they're so unnatural for dogs to you know, come
back to you when there's something more interesting to sniff
or chase or whatever. And to get a dog to
sit down and wait to do what it wants to
do more than anything in the world with a high
stimuli environment, Like it's just tough, right, But both of
(28:38):
those have that safety aspect. And when you talk about that,
like a duck dog specifically that isn't steady, people hate
that right because it's jumping out, birds are flaring whatever.
It's like a it's a bad deal, but it's also
a very unsafe situation. You've got that bird knocked down
in the water and that dog's supposed to stay there
and somebody's like, I'm gonna I'm gonna finish.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
That green off for whatever if it's a cripple, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Right, and then your dog takes off. So there's a
We sort of tend to frame that up as like
a dog with really good recall or a dog with
really good steadiness or both is a great dog, which
is true, but it's also not just about like you
having a good dog. It's about you having a dog
that's going to be safe in spite of what it
(29:22):
wants to do and in spite of what's going on
around you with you know, your hunting buddies or whoever
you happen to be with.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Yeah, no, I mean I can't stress that enough as
like a steady dog is a safe dog, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
So how did you work that into ruby?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Oh? Just repetition, repetition.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Give me an example, like a drill.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
So uh, I would say, I mean the first thing
that comes to mind is live pigeons, just like not
even I wouldn't even say it's a drill, but like
in a sense, it kind of was like I just
(30:08):
kind of like came up with this myself. It's like
just having that pigeon with its wing wings clipped and
you walking around with that dog on heel, like that
dog is like ready to pounce, you know, twenty four
to seven, and like just like walking up slowly, walking
up to that pigeon and then walking away from it,
(30:30):
walking back to it, walk away from it.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
And like even just like another like kennel thing too.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
You have that dog place or like in kennel and
then you're walking around kicking up this pigeon and it's
bouncing left to right all over the place and like
that dog is in its kennel around place the whole
time and does not leave until your release commands or
anything like that. So yeah, I don't even know if
(31:00):
that's not either.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
I mean, well that's like advanced levels. Yeah right, I mean,
I mean most people would be really happy if they
could heal their dog or place their dog, chuck a
bumper and wait thirty seconds before that dog took off.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
For sure.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
But yeah, I guess like at a basic level, that
starts from when that dog's a puppy.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
You have it sit, you put.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
Food down in front of it, you release it by name,
You wait five seconds, ten seconds, five minutes. You just
build up that those building blocks, yep, and then you
can transfer that into the just regular fetch too, just
with a bumper. Have that dog at heel, sit and
put position, throw that bumper and you wait and the
(31:50):
yeah forever how long? Like I said, the same thing
with the food five seconds, ten seconds.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
And that starts early early, So this is that's that's
what I was hopeing you would say, there's like an
sorry I jumped in, No, No, that's all right. Uh,
there's like an escalatory feature built into good dog training,
where that making a dog wait to eat when it's
a puppy for three seconds or five seconds is the
(32:17):
foundation of steadiness. And you know if you skip that,
you're you have more difficult work to do later that
might not stick the same way you'd want it to.
So you do that, and then it's five seconds, then
it's ten seconds, and then you start working on that
retrieving design or that retrieving drive and working on those
(32:39):
and it's like, Okay, now you got to wait three
seconds to get that bumper, and it's that dog's conditioned
to that, Like the reward's going to come, I just
have to earn it exactly. And then you get to
the point where you're like, Okay, I'm gonna do big
distraction training like with a live pigeon, which is a
like a huge, hugely difficult thing for them to do.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
As you get a cripple doctor, right, I always like,
I always say that's like if you took like a
fifteen year old boy and you're like, you're going to
learn algebra, but you're going to learn it in.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
A strip club. They'd be like, this is really hard
environment for me to focus in, you know, But maybe
that's a bad analogy a little. But when you think
about how how people screw up training that, like because
that's a that that skill is a long game thing,
(33:31):
that behavior is a long game thing that will will
test them. Like when you you could do that with
the pigeons and get a dog to that point where
it's so rock solid and take it on its first
duck hunt and it's going to break. Yeah, because now
you've changed the rules and now you're like, here is
we're at the top of the mountain, buddy, and it's
like they're just going to do it.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Yeah, it's not is that dog going to break? It's
when right?
Speaker 1 (33:54):
You know, right, But that's a that's another thing to
look at. So you build in all these layers and
you're like, that is important to me because that's a
good duck dog. That's a good dog, but it's also
a safe duck dog. But you get to that point
and you go, I can see into the future and
I know when this dog's gonna screw up, right, Like
when that distraction comes, Like you can see this. I
(34:15):
saw this yesterday. We were filming some stuff you did too,
where if there's another dog out there working and it's
visible that changes the entire dynamic, especially if you're working
with a young dog. Even if there's that other dog's
three hundred yards away chasing a frisbee. That's a big
attention poll yep. You know. And so when you think
about that where you're going out there for that first
duck hunt with Ruby and you're like, man, I know
(34:37):
what's coming. I mean, oftentimes the best thing to do
is be like I'm going to be the dog handler
and I have somebody else who's gonna shoot the woodies
or whatever, because I know what we're dealing with, and
I want to be on top of this the break
in the behavior chain right now, because I can see
it coming.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Yeah, And like that was another big thing too, is
like when we started actually going on hunts, there was
those first couple of hunts, was it was not possible
to have a shotgun in the blind when like I
was like worrying about her the whole time, Like you
either had to handle the dog or simply just not
(35:21):
like having a shotgun there. Like you can't have two priorities.
You know, the birds weren't a priority. It was the
dog was a priority, you know. And so like the
best thing was like just not even bringing a shotgun
on those first couple of hunts. You know, it's just
working that dog, working that dog.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yep. Well, and that's a like I was. I was
actually talking to Lake Pickel this morning about starting you know,
he runs labs. He lives down south in Mississippi, and
we were talking about starting our dogs. You know, if
you get a spring pup, starting them on doves, you know,
there's usually the first person you can go after, or
they can be highly scoutable. Uh, you know, you can
(36:03):
set up on a dead tree next to a cattle
tank and at least shoot some out of the tree.
If you can't shoot or whatever, Like, you can get
your dog a bird, right, And in my world, a
lot of times that's either doves or it's woodcock because
they're the first kind of small bird opportunity that's really good.
But when you do, when you when you pay attention
to those opportunities, then you have those chances to like again,
(36:26):
sort of take smaller steps with your dog, right and
recognize like it's not a it's a different thing to
load up you know, the duck boat and have all
your decoys, and it's like we got to get to
the landing at two o'clock cause we've got to beat
everybody to the point whatever, versus being like, we can
wear you know, our T shirt, yeah right, and a
(36:47):
handful of shells in your pocket with somebody else and
go to those scouted doves, work a couple birds for
fifteen twenty minutes, try to get that one good positive
thing going and then leave or the was you know
the wood ducks that you know are coming into the
pond or the creek bed every day, and it's like,
you're not gonna get that. You don't want to start
(37:08):
on that big production hunt because you know those things
are gonna go wrong and you would rather have that
mostly be a training experience versus being like a hunt
for yourself for sure. So you find somebody you trust
who can run the gun, and you're like, okay, now
that's a short window, but of like a really important
one for you to be like, I'm gonna tap down
my ego and my desire to kill something and I'm
(37:30):
gonna let somebody else do it. Well, I walk my
dog through this part, because once we do this, like
the next STEP's a bigger one. But when this one's
in place, it's a really good one to have, and
if you skip it again, you're in trouble.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Yeah, And like Ruby's first hunt was a dove hunt
out here, and yeah, I think we I mean we
had a lot of shooting, but like I didn't do
a lot of shooting, you know, I did some after
like I was like checking on her. I was like, yeah, okay, nice,
easy one comes in, I'm gonna shoot, and like, but
I was shooting like this the whole time, like almost
(38:07):
just keeping a close eye on her because like if
if anything happens, like as far as like she creeps
or she breaks, like you got to be on that
right away, yep, before she gets that bird, that reward.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
You know, that's another big thing too.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Right well, and that's a lake and I were actually
talking about that this morning. That's a that's the thing
that happens a lot when you hunt two dogs, like
not necessarily in the waterfall world, but in the upland
world a lot where it's easy to sort of view
it as a success if you have the young dog
and an older dog out and you're killing some birds. Yeah,
but what you're doing with that young dog or not
(38:43):
doing with that young dog matters a lot, and you
might be missing training opportunities, or you might be offshoring
a bunch of the important learning experiences to the old
dog because they know how to do it better and
you can get into a little trouble there. So it's
like a it's something that you have to facilitate and
be aware of. And I and I think that that's
like a I think we missed that a lot of times.
(39:06):
And I think a lot of people think, well, I
go to you know, my bird hunt is you know,
pheasants in South Dakota for five days every year and
that's what we do. The rest of the time, my
dog just trains and it's a house dog. Or I
love to hunt X, Y and Z, and that's all
I do. And it's like, man, when you have that
dog that you're developing and all of these behaviors that
you want to stick for the rest of that dog's life,
(39:27):
you know, maybe don't be above woodcock like or not.
I should even you know, yeah, I shouldn't even say
it that way, Like maybe consider every opportunity you have,
like I know.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Even pigeons too, you know, like setting up on a
dairy farm and shooting a couple of pigeons. That is
great dog training and low low steaks, right, you know.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
I had that's the first birds I shot over Sadie
were pigeons at a farm by my house, and you know,
she loved it. I love it. Like pigeon hunts great.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
I know, of course, like it's it's like it's not
duck hunting. But at the same time that it kind
of is like you're decoyed them. That spinner's going.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Yeah it's and it's just a low pressure deal. But
that's a you know, this is maybe a totally side
tangent here, but this is one of the things that
drives me a little bit nuts about a lot of
the hunting community right now. Is I hear how there
are no opportunities on public land for this bird, this,
you know, big game animal whatever. I'm like, man, there's
(40:23):
something out there in an awful lot of places. And
one of the things that I go back to a
lot is the woodcock migration. You know, most people that
I run into aren't like die hard woodcock hunters, right like,
they would rather hunt grouse, they would rather hunt pheasants.
Something like that's like a low usually like a low
priority bird but their migration is pretty consistent in a
(40:47):
lot of places, and they don't know they're landing on
public land in the suburbs, you know what I mean. Yeah,
And so if you were to go try to find
wild birds around my house where I live in the
suburbs of the Twins, these I can find wood ducks
and teal because they're doing the same thing migratory. And
I can find woodcock very consistently on a lot of
(41:09):
public land that you will never find a grouse or
a pheasant or anything that might traditionally live there because
it's just just not going to be there. But there's
a window during that season where all of a sudden
you can have pretty cool you know, wing shooting and
upland hunting there, especially with a young dog or whatever.
And it's it's not like, you know, maybe not your
dream hunt pheasant hunt or whatever, but it's like an opportunity.
(41:33):
And maybe with that six year old dog you don't
want to do that, but that eight month old dog,
that's a different thing. Like that's that is going to
benefit you and that dog forever. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
And like growing up in North Dakota, yeah, we had doves,
but then we also had early season Canada geese end
Like Canada geese are everywhere too, and like, yes, I
know for a young dog like that is a big
bird pick up. But like Ruby's first waterfall hunt was
(42:04):
a goose hunt out here and like yes it was
struggling of like picking up those birds and carrying them back.
But it's the same premise.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Is she steady? Is she marking the birds? And like
are we having fun?
Speaker 1 (42:18):
You know? I mean you take what you have.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
So like you talk about the woodcock, the teal, the
wood ducks as like my opportunity for Ruby that first
her first fall were doves and geese.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yeah, you work, you literally have to work with what
you exactly and just try to set them up for that.
So how old is she now?
Speaker 2 (42:49):
She's gonna be five in July.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
And she is uh, super duper pregnant, super duper. So
you decided to breed her?
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Where did that come from?
Speaker 2 (42:59):
That was kind of like also with like.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Me getting her, one of the stipulations was like hey,
like we're gonna do this and we're gonna bread her
when time's right.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
And so you were just that was just it, huh, yeah,
are you taking a puppy.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
I'm not taking a puppy from this litter. So my
wife and I, how hard is that? I don't think
it's that too difficult.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Is it hard for your wife?
Speaker 3 (43:29):
No, I don't think so she doesn't want a No, well,
I mean I think we're gonna do like probably like
maybe a couple more litters, and so this first one
is probably not.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
We're just my wife and I are just not ready
for a puppy right now. So, I mean, my wife
is there. When Ruby was a puppy, when she was
my girlfriend of like three months, right, and that first
fall was a big task and a big ask from her,
like because I was alwa obviously traveling.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
But so she had her hands on that puppy a lot.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
Yeah, big time.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
And she was also going to grad school and trying
to finish the masters, and yeah, I put a lot
of stress on her, Yeah, a lot.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
So, but yeah, we don't need puppy right now. So
it's not what am I trying to say, It's not
like a big concern for us right now.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Right, she's five, I know, so you're like, I mean
probably within the next couple of years, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
For sure, yeah, because like I mean, some dogs people
hunt them to what ten, but like at that seven
eight range is like they're kind of like down going
down the hill, you know, ye, slowing down and hunting less.
And I mean they're just they're workhorses, so like it's
just like an old car engine, like they're just gonna
(44:49):
slowly go down, you know.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Oh, I know, yeah, I got to I have a
fully retired lab right now. Sure. I felt like I
waited a year or too long.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
To how old did you get the suit?
Speaker 1 (45:02):
I waited until I got the puppy when Luna was eight, Okay,
so I was I was going to get one a
year earlier, but I didn't really want to get divorced,
and so I decided not to. I highly doubt that
I'll wait that long now. So Sadie turned forward this spring,
and I think, I don't know, within two years for sure,
(45:25):
maybe maybe next spring. I mean, I haven't decided yet,
but I'm just curious about that because it's like it
just flies by when you have that prime age dog,
and they are just like autopilot, you know. I mean,
they're fun to train, they're amazing to hunt with, Like
you know what they're going to give you and they're
going to give you everything. But then that it starts
(45:46):
to like hit that window you're talking about where I
feel like with Luna, I probably saw, you know, the
recovery time started to take a little longer and like
maybe like a little of the edge come off throughout
the day at eight and then by ten I was like, oh, man,
like for sure she's still gonna go. But it's just,
you know, it's just that's just what happens. But having
(46:08):
two dogs is a big consideration.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
Yeah, and it's a big commitment too, right, and not
to mention it's like a one dog is already expensive
for like food that bills. Now just put another one
on top of that, you know. But yeah, at some
point we will we will get another dog, and it's
probably gonna be from Ruby too.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
You think. So, Yeah, do you find yourself she's a
really good dog? Yea, like really well trained. That's why
I want to talk to you, because for it to
be your first dog that you're like really working through
and like committed to, she's awesome. Uh, do you find
do you find yourself thinking about what you're gonna do
different with the next one?
Speaker 3 (46:49):
And number one thing is like and like this would
be so much different if I could dedicate my time
twenty four to seven just to like a hunting dog,
but I always can't, you know, like I have to
have that hunting dog but also a family dog. And
like one one big thing I would say for my
next dog is no tennis balls, right, which is huge,
(47:13):
you know, but like if I'm away, a simple thing
for the wife to go do is go to the
park and play chuck it for twenty minutes, you know.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
And like, so do you say that because it teaches
your dog to spit that out?
Speaker 2 (47:25):
I wouldn't say spit but chomp. Oh okay, yeah, And
like I've had to do some training of like.
Speaker 3 (47:35):
Just like creating that soft mouth again, you know, and
like yeah, I mean she's no dog is perfect, right,
but like I can definitely see a correlation between that
chuck it.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Right and like her chomping on birds.
Speaker 3 (47:50):
Yeah, you know, so yeah, I would definitely say no
chuck it, no tennis balls.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah, that's a big thing, man. That is so common.
I mean that, y I noticed that with my dogs.
With my dogs, I don't notice is the hard mouth
thing coming in as much as just them testing the
boundaries or whether they got to hold the whole time,
like because they'll come back and spit it out at
my feet. If if my dog's like if my wife
(48:18):
and kids take them up to the lake, I know
it's the chuck it situation, and I know there's a
pretty good chance the first time we go out to
the park or wherever, that they're gonna just try just
like Andy, they know, but they're like, Okay, well I
got away with it, and it's like, I don't know
it just it's it's a good lesson that not only
everybody who has a hand on your dog should follow
(48:41):
your rules.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
They might exactly.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
And that's another thing I was going to say, is
like there's got to be a commitment from you in
training this dog, but then whoever is watching this dog
when you're away, right, you know, And like thankfully Alex
has been like super.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
Great about.
Speaker 3 (48:57):
Making her heel, making her sits listener by name, like incredible,
Like I sometimes still get on her about it, like hey,
just remember, like make sure she sits and if she's
like creeps, get her back at heel. You know, but
there's got to be a commitment from both, right, both people.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
So that is a it's a really tough thing. And
I mean it only gets tougher when you have kids,
oh god. But it's just it's a good reminder that
you can put in tons of work like you did
and learn and figure out how to really level that
dog up and create something super special with it. But
you can't. Oh you can't take your foot completely off
(49:37):
the gas their whole life.
Speaker 3 (49:39):
Yeah, And like that's another thing too, is like I
would say, in the last like two summers, training has
become not really.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
A priority.
Speaker 3 (49:55):
It's almost like, oh, I trained her up to here,
Now I can let the foot off the gas, but
I you can't do that, you know, like you still
got to keep her sharp keeper, keep challenging them, keep
them using their brains too, because like how much brain
power does it take to like watch a tennis ball
go out in the field, go out, grab it and
(50:16):
come right back and do that twenty thirty times?
Speaker 2 (50:19):
You know?
Speaker 1 (50:19):
Yep? Well, I mean that's a We filmed some content
on that yesterday about different environments, thinking through what like
why would your dog be bored? Or is your dog
bored in this situation? Most likely yes, because we sort
of muddy the waters between actual training and just getting
your dog some exercise exactly. And you know, I mean
(50:42):
working with your dog's great, but like you said, if
you're not challenging their brain and doing some different stuff
with them, they're gonna get bored and you're gonna have
behaviors manifest out of that aren't great. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (50:50):
And I'll be the first to say, like, the last
couple of years, I've been bad about that.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
I mean, I think that's a very consistent thing when
you I mean I always tell people, like they'll ask
me about like my dog sometimes and I'll be like,
I really think that the first two years most important.
You go so hard. Yeah, and it's easy you can
back off some, but you still have to pay attention
and you still have to understand that that training is
important for your dog, like your dog's mental health as
(51:17):
well as just keeping them sharp. And it is easy
to sort of think that you're like, well, the job's
kind of done, like I can yeah, and I think
everybody does that, but it is like there are moments
where you notice that where you're like you're in the
field or something where you're like, oh that slipped. Yeah, yeah, sure,
And that sucks. Like we worked really hard at that
and now that dog's like I don't want to do that,
and I don't think I have to.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
Yeah, and like.
Speaker 3 (51:40):
The whole hunt test thing is like we don't have
to get into it because there's a whole nother can
of worms. But like I wanted to test Ruby title her.
Speaker 2 (51:51):
In Like once I reached that.
Speaker 3 (51:56):
Title of Hunting Retrieve Champion, it was like, oh, okay,
sounds good. And like I didn't do much of training
last summer, you know, because like we had that title
and like we're busy. I was getting married, moving houses,
you know, like we just didn't have time for it.
And so like I really didn't have a goal for
(52:18):
my training, which was huge. And I've noticed that too.
Is like if I have that goal, like I'm waking
up two hours earlier to like make sure that training happens,
you know.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
Ye.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
So yeah, like that's another big thing, is like just
like have a goal in mind too, right.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
I mean that's this might might seem crazy, but I
think that's so important and I think it's a primary
driver behind at least myself doing more stuff with my dogs,
Like you know, the shed dog thing burned really hot
for a while and I trained my dogs to do that,
and like written it's on articles whatever. People ask about
(52:54):
it a lot, and I'm like, I don't I don't
care about finding more sheds. I have enough sheds, Like
I don't need anymore. I like being out in the
woods and.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
Getting some exercise for yourself.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
Right, I mean, it's just it's just a I just
enjoy walking through the woods with my dog, But training
my dogs to shed hunt is just a it's just
another thing. And so it's like another excuse to do
something with them and have them work on something that's
more visual than scent based and just kind of like
add it into the mix. And it's like, I'm super
(53:25):
excited this year. I think I'm in a film, a
project where I get to go hunt some upland species.
I don't hunt very much. I used to kind of
try to make it make it a priority to hit
sharpies and pray chickens and quail when I could, and
it's just, you know, I just haven't had as much time.
And this year is kind of a priority for me
in doing that kind of stuff, just to just opening
(53:46):
up your aperture to the opportunities changes how you look
at your dog and what you want to do with them. Yeah,
you know, because you go from like if I go
from the cattails where it's tight work and my dogs
are close and you know, the hunt dead things huge
because you know, right, it's just a there's there are
unique challenges to that habitat. And then I go where
you know, Sharpie's and prairie chickens live, and my dog
(54:10):
is like I need to stay close, And I'm like,
you don't have to stay as close now, buddy, because
we have thousands of acres of grassland to hunt and
I don't know where these birds are because I don't
know shit about them. Like I love that stuff because
it gets you just into like a For me as
an owner, it just gives me like a different mindset
where I'm like, Okay, now my hand signals are more important,
Like I need to think about wind in a different way.
(54:31):
And and I know that, like I know people are
listening to this andre like I'm not going to go
out west and hunt those birds or whatever. When you
think about the opportunities like we talked about earlier with
the doves and the woodcock, and you know, you starting
your dog on geese. It's like, in your state, there's
probably multiple kinds of opportunities that are available on public
(54:52):
land or public waters that you know, I think about
my home state of Minnesota. I can go up north
and hunt grouse and woodcut, find some small ponds with
some puddle ducks. And I can go to western Minnesota
and hunt those cattail sleus that are gonna have roosters
once in a while you run into a hun's out there,
(55:13):
not very often, once in a while, but also the
duck situation out there is way different, pretty cool, you know.
And you think about that, and then I could go
to where I grew up in southeastern Minnesota, and it's
like you might find a pheasant, you might find a grouse,
but you got a lot of little trout streams, you
got a lot of interior kind of rivers, and then
you got the Mississippi. So you're like, okay, you right,
(55:33):
you might not have upland opportunities, but you might be
able to scout out some small water ducks on those
streams that a lot of them have run through public
land or get into the backwaters. And it's like, that's
just in my home state. I don't need a non
resident license for it. You know, it might be a
hour to a four hour drive, a camping trip or whatever,
but the opportunities are there, and the more that you
(55:55):
find them, the more you're just like, I have more
to do with my and more to train and more
to think about, and it's just the whole relationship changes.
Speaker 2 (56:04):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (56:06):
Yeah, and it's awesome too, And I love every single
moment of being out there with your best friend, you.
Speaker 1 (56:15):
Know, right. So speaking of that, let's wrap this sucker up.
I have one last question for you. What's the best
retrieve she's ever done? What's the one where you were like,
oh my god, oh man. I mean, there's been so
many of them where I'm like, holy crap, did that
just happen? But honestly, like.
Speaker 3 (56:39):
I don't really have one retrieve that stands out, but
I have like one hunt where it was just like
clockwork spring snow geese her first year, or I guess
it was like her fall spring snow geese, so technically
it was still her first year hunting.
Speaker 1 (57:00):
We're up in Canada, okay, and.
Speaker 3 (57:04):
So up there it's black fields, white birds, and it
was just like an incredible four days of hunting up there,
and I could just see her confidence get built and
built and built, just because those white birds in a
black field just some of those marks and some of
(57:26):
those blinder trees were just absolutely just out of this world.
And like, I know, you're not supposed to like quote
unquote test a dog. You're supposed to train a dog
to be able to do these things. But there was
a couple just incredible marks where three four hundred yard marks,
(57:46):
and I'm just like, okay, you ready for this, and
just sent her and it was just full speed ahead
all the way there, all the way back, just countless
number of trees. And yeah, that's one of my most
favorite hunting trips with her as a whole.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
So that was that was sort of like a watershed
moment for her, partially due to the environment and the birds,
because making a you know, a three hundred yard mark
on in most hunting situations, that birds lost, like visually lost, right, yes,
like at a certain point, but those birds would hit
(58:23):
sale hit that black dirt somewhere, and that dog could
keep a mark on them three football fields away and
take a straight line to him and build that confidence
and go it doesn't matter how far away they are.
They send me, he sends me on this line. I'm
going and I'm coming back with a bird exactly.
Speaker 3 (58:37):
And that was just so beneficial in like her learning curve,
just with marks and blind retrieves too, you know, just
like it really.
Speaker 2 (58:48):
Spread our distance out. You know. It wasn't the classic.
Speaker 3 (58:52):
Fifty yard throw from a bumper or whatever like that,
or from like a dummy launcher.
Speaker 2 (58:58):
You know, like it was just.
Speaker 3 (58:59):
Like real world practical. I shouldn't say real world practical,
but it was just cool hunting and just a cool
experience for that dog too.
Speaker 1 (59:11):
Well. I mean, that's that specific scenario is sort of
a happy accident thing where you're like, you wouldn't nobody
would take their dog to that specific situation for that reason. No,
but finding yourself in that situation and seeing what that
is doing for her is like the light bulb goes
(59:32):
off and you're like, oh boy, like this is a
this is an important day or an important trip for
this dog.
Speaker 3 (59:39):
Yeah, And like ever since then it was just like
just cool. I mean, every retrieve since then, it was
just like you could just still see that confidence just
there right the whole time. And so like, yeah, you
asked me for like one retrieve, but like from that
four day period, I mean, every single retrieve from that
trip was incredible.
Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
It's like so rewarding for me.
Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
How many birds do you think she picked up on
that trip?
Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
Over two hundred?
Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah right, you know, like and.
Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
Like that's just something also beneficial for a dog is
like repetition them picking up birds too, is like so
great for him too.
Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
Yeah. I mean, I will never forget I had a
conversation with Doc and when I was I think I
was working Luna and you know, you kind of I
take it for granted, right, but we can get on
so many different species of birds upland and waterfall within
you know, a couple hours of my house, yep. And
(01:00:39):
I remember him telling me, like, you have no idea
how lucky you are to be able to get your
dog that much bird exposure wild bird exposure, yeah, in
a single season and all these different scenarios, because that
is what makes a dog Like that's that's like the
real final piece of the puzzle.
Speaker 3 (01:00:58):
Like you can be like a leatherman like utility, like
can do anything.
Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
Right, but you can train your ass off and you
know that dog can be perfect in a in a
training scenario, but that dog doesn't get to hunt, get
that bird, that bird contact, it doesn't become the next
thing like it just you just have to have that
piece and being able to facilitate that somehow. Like you said,
you know, you go on to goose hunt, your dog
(01:01:24):
retrieves two hundred geese. You're like, well, this is going
to shape this dog in a positive way forever. And
that's not I mean, it's not available to everyone, but
like recognizing that that's a like the component is the
bird contact. So however, you you know, if you can't
get two hundred birds in five days, which is everyone, yeah,
pretty much like there are other ways to try to
(01:01:46):
do it. I always tell you know, I do well.
My favorite thing is to hunt peasants right late SI's
and pheasants. And when I have buddies who have puppies
or young dogs and they don't want to make the
drive out, I'm like, you don't understand how many bird
comes contag your dog's gonna get in like a four
day hunt, you know, like I go even yeah, even
if you go grouse hunting and it's really good, you're
(01:02:10):
not you could have. You could walk into one pheasant
slough and in the right situation, with the right conditions,
your dog could could push up more birds in that
in ten minutes than they might in ten days of
grouse hunting. You know, I mean, I'm being a little
bit facetious here, but like it's it's just like that
specific scenario is going to help your dog level up
(01:02:32):
so much because it's going to get its nose on
so much scent. It's so awesome, Max. Everybody who wants
to see your work knows where to go. You're a
meat eater guy, I would say the top seven videographers
we have.
Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
Oh really, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
Now you do an amazing job. Ruby's a badass. Thanks
for coming on, man, I really appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
No, I hope you get a hunt over here sometimes.
So next time you're out here come January December.
Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
Dude, I hope sometimes chase some ducks. I hope one
time when I come to Montana I get to do
something fun. I know. I'm sorry, it'll happen, buddy. Thanks man,
all right, thanks doinging
Hey, everyone, Welcome to the Foundations podcast. I'm your host
Tony Peterson, and today I'm talking to meat Eater's very
own Max Barta about the obligation we have to our
dogs to try to develop them in the best way possible.
So this is a fun one today. I actually met
(00:23):
Max through meat Eater here. He's been a videographer with
us for a couple of years. Super good guy. We
filmed some deer hunts together and I found out pretty
quickly that Max is crazy passionate about bird dogs and
he has an awesome dog, Ruby, who not only did
he train himself, but it's his first real bird dog
and she's an amazing dog. So I wanted to kind
(00:45):
of get his process on how did he get the dog,
how do you learn to train, and how did he
how did he go about developing this dog to be
so special, which is what we cover in pretty deep detail,
go into steadiness, recall, just different methods and just a
lot of really good, useful information here from somebody who's
(01:06):
young but went through the process the right way. So
I think there's a ton to learn here and I
think you're gonna really like it. Max Barta, how are
you today, Buddy.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
Tony psha, I'm doing well?
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Are you good? For the listeners? Before I get into this,
Max and I go way back. We actually spent ten
days together filming some hunting shows two years ago, and
we got to be, I would say, the best of friends.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Yeah, I would say.
Speaker 1 (01:37):
So. I made you climb into a tree stand for
the first time in your life in the pitch black,
and what was amazing is I've never had this happen.
I sent you up into the stand because the cameraman
always goes in first, and I could actually hear a
little bit of p dribbling down the steps because you
were so scared.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yes, do you remember that that did not happen? But sure,
and I had.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
To give you some wipes when we got up there,
and that was really awkward.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
No, that did not happen.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
But that did not happen. We actually had great hunts
hunted with my daughter. Got to watch her. She was
a spike. She was super happy I shot a deer.
But that's not what I want to talk to you about.
You have you know, we have this big initiative going
on at meat Eaither where we're finally taking dogs. Seriously,
I know we've had this foundation's podcast. I know, right,
(02:23):
this is what they hired me for like four years ago.
And Steve Ranella was like, we talk about cats, we
don't talk about dogs. And finally I went over as
head to the CEO and here we are, but out
of everyone in this office, and there are dogs in
this office constantly. We're out in Bozeman right now, out
of everyone here. I mean, people know callan snort. But
(02:46):
you and Ruby have showed up in a lot of
different hunts, a lot of hunts with Steve. She's an
amazing dog, and that's what I wanted to talk to
you about. You're a young fella, but that dog is
such a sweetheart, legit, and I just wanted to go
through a little bit about your process of how you
got her and you trained her yourself, which is where
I really want to go with this because when you
(03:09):
see I think when a lot of people see a
dog like her, they would assume, you know, especially a
guy in the industry, that you ship that dog off,
had somebody else do all the work. You brought it back,
followed the rules, and there you go. A great dog,
but you did it all yourself. And we're going to
get into that, But I want to go back to
the beginning. Have you always had dogs?
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Uh?
Speaker 3 (03:29):
Yeah, I guess. I we had a family dog. I
wouldn't say it was like a true hunting dog when
I was middle school high school. It was a GSP
and we got it as a family dog. But then
also like my dad and I kind of half ass
(03:50):
trained it to be a hunting dog.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
So was the idea with this dog more to be
a house dog or more to be a hunting dog. Yeah?
Speaker 3 (03:58):
I would probably say like seventy thirty seventy percent house
dog thirty percent hunting dog.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Right, So if you if you're leaning that way, you
have to get a hunting breed, yeah, right, but it
might not be a hunting dog.
Speaker 2 (04:10):
Yes, exactly.
Speaker 3 (04:10):
So, I mean you see so many dogs out there
that are like a hunt and breed, but they don't
do much hunting. And like at the time when we
really got them, like I couldn't drive myself, and so
like I would, I couldn't take it hunting myself otherwise
it would have you know, So yeah, it was like
like I said, it was like seventy percent family dog,
thirty percent hunting dog.
Speaker 1 (04:31):
And so did you train that dog.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Uh No, we shipped it off okay for like four
months its first year it we brought it back and
then that was it.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
No more training, no more training. Uh Who? So was
it your dad's idea to get a GSP?
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
I think it was like that time where it was
just like, oh we saw an advertisement, it's cheap, it's
a GSP.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
We can hunt over it. Like, let's get it.
Speaker 1 (04:56):
What were you gonna hunt with it? Peasants?
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Peasants?
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Yeah, And so you shipped it off. It got trained
to some level.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
To some level, and like it was just like I
don't know, there was like many things wrong with him,
so like what like he would like have the natural
ability to point find birds.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
And but like just lack of retrieving.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
You shoot a bird, he would go to it, look
at you and be like, hey, the bird's right here,
and not bring it back to you. You would go
out and pick it up, and then he would go
look for another one.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
So could you toss a bumper for that dog and
have it bring it back or no?
Speaker 3 (05:33):
A little bit, nothing too serious, so nothing like a
lab you know, right, So it was just like I
don't know, it was just like I said, like he
could find birds and you could shoot birds over him,
but you would have to find that dead bird right
at the end of the day.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
So I mean that is a that is not an
uncommon story.
Speaker 3 (05:53):
Oh no, especially like being like a father and a
son too and just want something that does.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
The bear minimument is like.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
Perfect, you know, right, But I mean I mean from
the perspective of a GSP that we'll do everything but that, yeah,
you know, and that's I mean, that's something we talk
about a lot, and I mean you have to be
a little bit careful because people get really worked up
about different breeds. But it's like that's just a consideration
for that breed in general. Like there are some gsps
that are going to retrieve, like fiends, but there's like,
(06:21):
like you mentioned labs, which we'll get into, but you're
way less likely to just go get a lab that
won't retrieve than a GSP, right, Like that's just how
it goes. So you didn't put any Like you guys
didn't put any real work into that. After you got
it back, it.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
Was like it was kind of shocking, to be honest
with you, And like the only training we did was
like we took it hunting and see how he performed,
you know, right, that was.
Speaker 1 (06:45):
It and he performed like a dog that was raised
that way. Yeah, how did you go? So there's a
there's a general progression with a lot of people right
where it's like our breed loyalty comes from some exposure
to something, and it's it's kind of wild because it's like,
we don't look at dogs like we're gonna freaking love
(07:06):
every one of them to death, but we do. So,
you know, you get exposure to Golden Retrievers when you're
ten years old because your uncle has one or whatever.
That's the first dog you hunt over. Some people never deviate.
They're like, I am a Golden Retriever guy till I die,
you know, And I've always I went through that route
with my first dog, and I ended up with black
(07:28):
labs that I have right now, and I kind of
always thought I would because of my uncle and who
I hunted with growing up. He always had black labs.
But it's like a very common progression for people to
follow some line like that. But you didn't, So, you know,
and did that dog. Did that experience with that dog
(07:50):
point you in a different direction, or was it your
level waterfall.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Honestly, like I mean Toby, that was the GSP family
dog growing up. It wasn't really like he deviated my
plan as far as like what dog to get.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
It was just like my.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Passion for waterfall hunting just took like an extreme mountain climb.
Like it was just like waterfall hunting or nothing. You
know what why just because like I was just like, well,
so like the way I got into hunting was like
my grandpa peasant hunted, so my dad Fezant hunted, so
I Pezant hunting.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
You know. They weren't really big duck hunters.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
Until like I kind of got brought up into I
would say, I shouldn't say got up broad. But I
had a mentor that took me duck hunting, and like
I fell in love with it.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Who was that?
Speaker 2 (08:42):
His name is Joe Flatland.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
What was he to you? What was he to me?
Speaker 3 (08:46):
He was honestly just a guy I pestered on Facebook
to like take me hunting.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
And we went to the same high school.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
He was probably like five or six years older than me,
but I alway knew him and he was a great
photographer and I had a passion for photography too, and
like I just pestered the crap out of him to
take me duck hunting, and like he killed a lot
of birds too, But it was something funny. We never
really ran dogs on any of those hunts when I
(09:13):
was like really getting into waterfall.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
So okay, lay out that scenario for me then, Like
what kind of hunting are you doing with a guy
who's obviously pretty hardcore who's not running dogs?
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Field hunting?
Speaker 3 (09:27):
Okay, yeah, a lot of cornfields, a lot of wheat fields,
but yeah, just field hunting mostly, so like you don't
necessarily need a dog, you know, right?
Speaker 1 (09:36):
What was that his rationale?
Speaker 3 (09:38):
Like you, I honestly don't know. We just never used
dogs too much, you know. I don't know if he
was wasn't exposed to it at his age growing up
or what, but yeah, we just never really used dogs.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
So you grew up kind of as a pheasant hunter, yep,
you know, started getting the bug a little bit. There
you go get to hunt with this guy finally takes
you along, which is there's a pretty good lesson there.
I mean, I'm not I'm not condoning reaching out to
random people, even if even acquaintances on social media and
(10:11):
pestering them till you take them hunting or they take
you hunting. But that kind of thing where you know,
and this applies to dog training in a major way,
Like this is this has happened to me a lot
where I've been around people who really knew dog training
and really knew dogs, where when you get exposure to
that world, now all of a sudden, you never see
it the same way again, because you know, like what's
(10:33):
possible and what's out there, and when you see somebody
who's like a master of that craft or just crazy
into it, it's like, Okay, now I've now I have
a different vision for how this could be for me
for the rest of my life. Act So he was
like that for you without the dogs.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Yeah, exactly, and like and honestly, like the whole like
dog thing didn't really hit me until I dropped out
of college. I actually start or did filming, and that's
that was my first like big boy job. I was
like filming for a Waterfall TV show and we had
a dog on the TV show and that really kind
(11:13):
of sparked my passion. I was like, yeah, I'm gonna
get a lab someday.
Speaker 1 (11:18):
When when was that? When did that whole thing?
Speaker 3 (11:19):
Like that was when I was I wasn't even twenty
one yet. I was like nineteen twenty years old when
I first started filming that Waterfall show. And I did
that for I don't know, about four or five years.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
So it was watching that dog work, Yeah, I.
Speaker 3 (11:36):
Mean it was just like being around dogs and like
seeing the bond that could happen with a man and a.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Dog, right, yeah. And then like when shoot, it was like.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
Probably my third season, third or fourth season filming that show,
and like that's when I got Ruby right.
Speaker 1 (12:00):
Up, So you you got the cut the Waterfall bug
hard found your way into the industry filming, which a
lot of people do, and that is a gig that
a lot of people dream of.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Yeah, it's a really blessing and a curse honestly.
Speaker 1 (12:15):
Right, And then they get into it and they're like, oh,
I'm going to be on the road for sixty days
in a row now, and my days are going to
be real long. And it's not a it's generally a
young man's game. Oh for sure, we don't. When you
when you look behind the scenes of what we do
here at Meat Eater, you don't see a lot of
gray hair behind the camera. Yeah, so you you get
(12:38):
that exposure and you decide it's lab time. How'd you
find Ruby? Did you find a litter?
Speaker 3 (12:43):
Just like being in the industry, I knew this one guy.
This is one gentleman that did some litters on the
side and just always stayed in touch.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
And he kind of passed me. He's like, hey, when
you're you gonna get a dog? When are you going
to a dog?
Speaker 3 (12:56):
And then like he had this one litter and I
wasn't planning on getting a dog and he goes, hey, Max,
listen to me, you should get this dog. And I
trusted him and he's I was really passionate about this
litter and he thought this letter could do great things.
(13:17):
And yeah, basically I was like, okay.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
What what was it about that dog?
Speaker 3 (13:23):
Just the blood Yeah, just the bloodline where it came from.
He ah, well you probably know this line. The dad
is Snapper, very famous in central Minnesota. Like he's had
many many letters. So Ruby's a Snapper puppy, Okay, And
like I didn't really understand what a Snapper puppy was
(13:48):
until like I really saw he got going and was
in the hunt test World for a little bit, and
people would come up to me and was like, is
that a snapper puppy? And I was like, yeah, how'd
you know that? It's weird kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
So how could they tell?
Speaker 2 (14:03):
Probably just the looks, honestly, wasn't how she performed.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Well.
Speaker 3 (14:07):
I mean she did perform really well too, but right, yeah,
like like don't give me like I shouldn't say like
I'm a professional in the dog Hunt test World or
anything like that, but like, yeah, it's like it's weird.
Like I didn't have a lot of experience, but like
the people that would come up to me had boat
loads more experience than I would.
Speaker 1 (14:28):
Right, So right, so back us up a second. Yep,
you weren't really planning on getting a dog now, so
you didn't have You weren't like it's got to be
a yellow female. No, you were just like, at some
point I will get a lab right, and it'll be
probably have some good blood in it. But you it
sounds like you got pretty lucky with that connection. And
(14:51):
he was like, hey, this is the one. So you
get that puppy? Was what was it eight weeks old
when you got it? Was it older?
Speaker 2 (14:57):
It was probably yeah, right around eight weeks.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
How long How long did you have to prepare for it?
So when he's like, hey, you gotta get this dog,
like he he convinces you that this is the one
you're going to take. Where were you at, like time
wise before you picked that dog up?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
Honestly, probably a month?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Okay?
Speaker 2 (15:15):
Yeah, what'd you do? Started reading?
Speaker 3 (15:18):
Started doing research, watched every single piece of content I could,
and just like fully like put myself in the shoes
of a new dog owner, you know, right, and like
I wanted to treat this dog.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
The best way I could.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
And yeah, I just really fully dove deep and learned
a lot.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Did you feel pressure because I've I've felt this, you know,
I've talked about this before on here where you know,
I'm buddies with Docins, so when I need a puppy,
he sources the blood for me, and I always feel
like a huge added sense of pressure. Yeah, to not
have a dog that sucks because of that. Did you
feel that knowing like you knew you were getting something
pretty good, like or you at least knew the potential
(16:05):
was very real. Did you feel like an added sense
of pressure there were you just like I just have
to do right by this dog, and I want a
badass dog.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Not really, it was like more so just like I've
been around a lot of dogs through the filming world,
and I've seen great dogs, I've seen the worst dogs.
I've seen it all, and like I wanted to kind
of pride myself in like, hey, this dog has potential.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
I don't want to let it down.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Like I want a good dog that's gonna make me proud,
and basically just yeah, I wanted to basically just live
up to that potential of that dog.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
Right. So when you when you're in that month window
where you're like, oh shit, I'm getting a dog, I
gotta be I got to know something about what I'm
gonna do. Is there Do you remember any like content,
anything you read, anything you saw where you were like
that person or that thing. I'm like, I'm taking that,
like I'm going to use that. Do you remember anything specific?
Speaker 2 (17:02):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (17:03):
Well, a big part of like my training was Bill Hillman.
Have you seen some of his videos on YouTube. They
are the oldest videos and he is like, I mean
he's old of age, you know, but they are the
corniest videos, cheesiest videos, But they are so good, impactful
of information, and like I was like basically just watching
(17:30):
those videos very religiously and taking everything I could from them.
And so, like going back to your questions about like
anything specific everything, I mean, there wasn't one thing that
stood out where I was like, oh, this is important.
It was all important to me, you know, all from
(17:51):
the basics of like oh, basic obedience to eclor conditioning
to whistle stops.
Speaker 2 (18:00):
Everything was important.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
So there's a there's sort of an interesting thing out there,
you know. I mean there's so much content, so much yeah,
and there's so many there's like old guard trainers and
new guard trainers, right, and you know a lot of
the new trainers like have a chip on their shoulder
and they want to prove to the world, you know,
like that they can do this. And you know, every
generation changes things, right, Like they if you went back
(18:23):
three generations to go to dog trainers, people be horrified. Yeah,
you know, that's that's how it goes. But there's there's
something about and this is going to seem so obvious,
but there's like something about those people who have had
their hands on so many dogs, you know, not they
don't have to necessarily be like a a peer retriever trainer, right,
(18:43):
like just a dog tain trainer that has the decades
of reps where especially when you're talking like puppy behavior
and foundational stuff and some of these things like you
just can't screw up gunfire, intro water, whatever, where it's
like it doesn't really change. It's like man, you know,
like there's like a little subtleties and stuff, but when
it comes from a source like that, it's usually just
(19:06):
like so ubiquitous. It's like across the board with puppies,
and it's so important to learn.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
Yeah, And like another big thing for me was like
I was always told like each dog is different, and
so you can't take just one training method, right, So
like the analogy I always used, like two plus two
is four, but also four plus zero is four, and
also three plus one is four. There's so many different
(19:33):
ways to like navigate to accomplish one goal, and there's
just different paths to get there, right, And so I
was using three or four different training modules or just
like training methods, and like I figured out what not
only worked best for me, but also worked best for
the puppy.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
When you bring that puppy home and you've got it,
and you're like, Okay, I've been I've been just like
feverishly devouring information on this. What did you do in
the first month.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
In the first month, just nothing serious, just had fun
with it, let the puppy grow basic obedience, you know,
just like just your all your basic stuff, and like
I really didn't get too serious with anything until like
that four six month range, you know, because like the
(20:31):
basic stuff is your rock to any everything. You know,
I can see stuff that I did when she was
a puppy that I still do with her now, you know.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
So it was the classic.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Sit place was place is huge, you know, Yeah, I
mean just those two basic ones sit uh in place
where the biggest things and like obviously getting the dog
to know it's name too is like huge, and like
that will come.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
But well, and that leads to the eye contact and
the basics of hand signals and all that stuff. That
place training. You know, we just had Jordan Horrock on
and he's really he's got his Cado boards like that, dude. Know,
it's place training that I kind of I'm starting to
sort of believe that like that might be the most
(21:24):
underrated aspect of training that you can do with with
not even just hunting dogs, but most dogs. Yeah, Like
I've I've been messing around training some non hunting dogs
for people where I live, and I just started working
with this King Charles Spaniel, which is a dog that
has been it's a year old and it's on its
(21:46):
third home. And this woman asked me to help her
because she's her dad found this dog, got it for
her kids. She's not in a position to have this dog.
But she's like, I'm not giving up on this dog,
Like this is this is going to be its home
in Her kids are bonded to it like it was.
It just is what it is, and you know, the
just talking to her, she's like, he's stubborn, tons of
(22:08):
energy right on down the line. Started to get a
little nippy with some of the people coming to her house,
and in my head, I was like, oh, there's like
a it's gonna be rough. It's gonna be a tough one, yeah,
a challenging one. So right before I flew out here,
I met her at a park and I brought a
cado board. I brought a thirty foot check cord and
I'm like, I'm just gonna hang with this dog and
(22:29):
just see that dog was placed, was placing for me,
and I was using treats. But still ten minutes after
I got there and she was like, I cannot believe this.
I'm like, you have a little working dog here that
has had no structure, has had no stability.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
I had no job maybe too.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Write no confidence, which is a big one. And just
anchoring that dog's attention with a placeboard, you could feel
it like shift. I mean it know. I maybe spent
an hour with that dog and I started with that
just to see because I could see it would sit,
like if I get its attention, it would sit and
do a few basic things, so it wasn't like total
(23:09):
blank slate. Took it for a walk, let it run
around a little bit, brought it back and did place
and it immediately recognized that. And I was like, you don't.
I don't think you have a stubborn dog here. I
think you you looked at this dog and thought it
was stubborn because you doesn't do what you wanted to do,
but you just you just didn't know how to ask
it the right questions yet. But even just seeing the
(23:29):
way that that dog related to that place board was
such an eye opener. And you see that with you know,
young dogs, if you work that that is like a
can be such a positive association. It's such a signal
to them that like good stuff's gonna happen and you're
gonna earn it and they love that. So that's that's
interesting to hear.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Yeah, And like, especially when you have a puppy, if
you make training like the highlight of their day, they're
gonna want to train every single day, you know, which
I think is a big like making everything fun and
exciting and like I said, like whatever that objective is,
whether it's place training for setch just fetch, you know,
make it the best thing ever for that dog.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Right, And that's I mean, it's that's like we look
at it and go, well, I want to train my
dog because I want my dog to be good at
this and this and this. But when you say that,
what you're saying is I'm building that team. Yeah, that
bomb and that dog wants that team like it doesn't
(24:31):
want you just to be the boss, like it wants
to work for you. And when you start that off
like right off the bat and condition them to like, hey,
you're going to interact with me in a way that's
gonna be fun, and you're gonna get rewards and we
are going to be like we are working together. It's
not just me showing up and like you got to
run through these drills and like, I mean, you can
get a dog someplace with that. But it's if you
(24:52):
look at it that way, like as the team aspect,
and it's like you're instilling in that dog from eight
weeks on that you are the source of that structure,
but also that fun tied into the structure and their
ability to please you or like their their opportunity. It's
a game changer for the rest of their life. It
literally sets them up to be better dogs and more
confident dogs forever for sure. Yeah, So when you got Ruby,
(25:14):
you weren't working at Mediator yet. You were working in
the industry doing some filming and stuff. But you had
no idea that you would have to train that dog
to the point where you were going to take it
with Steve Vanella and film in and it was gonna
end up on Netflix.
Speaker 2 (25:29):
No, well she never ended up knowing Netflix.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
She did it.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
No, I mean we've done some stuff with Steve, like
just like fun fun hunts and like some stuff on
YouTube like the busting and the boys stuff right took
Cowetzel country music artists out. That was pretty sweet. But yeah, no,
I like never in my world did I thought I
(25:55):
was ever gonna run that dog with as many people
and as I have in like as many places as
I have either.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Does does it make you nervous taking that dog out
with you? Know what I mean? Because this is you know,
you talk about taking cod busts with the boys, like
this is a weird scenario. For Like, it's probably kind
of hard for people to understand that you might be
come into the office and find out that next week
(26:23):
you're hunting with three dudes you've never met for some
kind of project or something, and you're running your dog
and your dog is going to be like a central.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Part of that. I mean.
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Not really, No, I wouldn't say it makes me nervous,
Like I mean, my first instincts are like, is she
gonna be safe?
Speaker 2 (26:46):
Are we gonna have fun?
Speaker 1 (26:47):
You know? Like, well, I mean that's that's part of
what I mean. Yeah, yeah, I know. I mean you
want your dog to perform for sure, Like when you're
in that situation, you don't want your dog to you
don't want the wheels to fall off. But also hunting
with people you don't know with your.
Speaker 3 (27:03):
Dog, Yeah, that part sometimes makes me nervous for sure, right, yeah,
but that all goes to like proper training, like not
breaking you know, and like setting some rules with those
hunters too. Is like, hey, when I send that dog,
no more shooting, right, you.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Know, does everybody follow the rules as they always have?
They always followed the rules.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
Yes, for the most part, I've never had any like
big scares or close calls like that knock on wood, right,
And so I'm super thankful for that. But yeah, I've
like and like another big thing is like hunting with
a small group of people, like everything's controlled, it's nothing
(27:48):
too crazy. Yeah, because like once you get with those
larger groups of people, that's when there's lots of gun infractions.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
You would say, right, you know, yeah, that can be
a rough situation. But that's I mean, you brought up
something there that's like super important. I think, you know,
if I've written about this a ton, but I think
the two hardest things to train into a dog, or
like at least two that are way up at the
top of the list are steadiness and recall. You know,
(28:18):
like they're so unnatural for dogs to you know, come
back to you when there's something more interesting to sniff
or chase or whatever. And to get a dog to
sit down and wait to do what it wants to
do more than anything in the world with a high
stimuli environment, Like it's just tough, right, But both of
(28:38):
those have that safety aspect. And when you talk about that,
like a duck dog specifically that isn't steady, people hate
that right because it's jumping out, birds are flaring whatever.
It's like a it's a bad deal, but it's also
a very unsafe situation. You've got that bird knocked down
in the water and that dog's supposed to stay there
and somebody's like, I'm gonna I'm gonna finish.
Speaker 2 (28:59):
That green off for whatever if it's a cripple, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
Right, and then your dog takes off. So there's a
We sort of tend to frame that up as like
a dog with really good recall or a dog with
really good steadiness or both is a great dog, which
is true, but it's also not just about like you
having a good dog. It's about you having a dog
that's going to be safe in spite of what it
(29:22):
wants to do and in spite of what's going on
around you with you know, your hunting buddies or whoever
you happen to be with.
Speaker 3 (29:29):
Yeah, no, I mean I can't stress that enough as
like a steady dog is a safe dog, you know.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
So how did you work that into ruby?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Oh? Just repetition, repetition.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Give me an example, like a drill.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
So uh, I would say, I mean the first thing
that comes to mind is live pigeons, just like not
even I wouldn't even say it's a drill, but like
in a sense, it kind of was like I just
(30:08):
kind of like came up with this myself. It's like
just having that pigeon with its wing wings clipped and
you walking around with that dog on heel, like that
dog is like ready to pounce, you know, twenty four
to seven, and like just like walking up slowly, walking
up to that pigeon and then walking away from it,
(30:30):
walking back to it, walk away from it.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
And like even just like another like kennel thing too.
Speaker 3 (30:38):
You have that dog place or like in kennel and
then you're walking around kicking up this pigeon and it's
bouncing left to right all over the place and like
that dog is in its kennel around place the whole
time and does not leave until your release commands or
anything like that. So yeah, I don't even know if
(31:00):
that's not either.
Speaker 1 (31:01):
I mean, well that's like advanced levels. Yeah right, I mean,
I mean most people would be really happy if they
could heal their dog or place their dog, chuck a
bumper and wait thirty seconds before that dog took off.
Speaker 2 (31:14):
For sure.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
But yeah, I guess like at a basic level, that
starts from when that dog's a puppy.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
You have it sit, you put.
Speaker 3 (31:24):
Food down in front of it, you release it by name,
You wait five seconds, ten seconds, five minutes. You just
build up that those building blocks, yep, and then you
can transfer that into the just regular fetch too, just
with a bumper. Have that dog at heel, sit and
put position, throw that bumper and you wait and the
(31:50):
yeah forever how long? Like I said, the same thing
with the food five seconds, ten seconds.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
And that starts early early, So this is that's that's
what I was hopeing you would say, there's like an
sorry I jumped in, No, No, that's all right. Uh,
there's like an escalatory feature built into good dog training,
where that making a dog wait to eat when it's
a puppy for three seconds or five seconds is the
(32:17):
foundation of steadiness. And you know if you skip that,
you're you have more difficult work to do later that
might not stick the same way you'd want it to.
So you do that, and then it's five seconds, then
it's ten seconds, and then you start working on that
retrieving design or that retrieving drive and working on those
(32:39):
and it's like, Okay, now you got to wait three
seconds to get that bumper, and it's that dog's conditioned
to that, Like the reward's going to come, I just
have to earn it exactly. And then you get to
the point where you're like, Okay, I'm gonna do big
distraction training like with a live pigeon, which is a
like a huge, hugely difficult thing for them to do.
Speaker 4 (32:57):
As you get a cripple doctor, right, I always like,
I always say that's like if you took like a
fifteen year old boy and you're like, you're going to
learn algebra, but you're going to learn it in.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
A strip club. They'd be like, this is really hard
environment for me to focus in, you know, But maybe
that's a bad analogy a little. But when you think
about how how people screw up training that, like because
that's a that that skill is a long game thing,
(33:31):
that behavior is a long game thing that will will
test them. Like when you you could do that with
the pigeons and get a dog to that point where
it's so rock solid and take it on its first
duck hunt and it's going to break. Yeah, because now
you've changed the rules and now you're like, here is
we're at the top of the mountain, buddy, and it's
like they're just going to do it.
Speaker 2 (33:50):
Yeah, it's not is that dog going to break? It's
when right?
Speaker 1 (33:54):
You know, right, But that's a that's another thing to
look at. So you build in all these layers and
you're like, that is important to me because that's a
good duck dog. That's a good dog, but it's also
a safe duck dog. But you get to that point
and you go, I can see into the future and
I know when this dog's gonna screw up, right, Like
when that distraction comes, Like you can see this. I
(34:15):
saw this yesterday. We were filming some stuff you did too,
where if there's another dog out there working and it's
visible that changes the entire dynamic, especially if you're working
with a young dog. Even if there's that other dog's
three hundred yards away chasing a frisbee. That's a big
attention poll yep. You know. And so when you think
about that where you're going out there for that first
duck hunt with Ruby and you're like, man, I know
(34:37):
what's coming. I mean, oftentimes the best thing to do
is be like I'm going to be the dog handler
and I have somebody else who's gonna shoot the woodies
or whatever, because I know what we're dealing with, and
I want to be on top of this the break
in the behavior chain right now, because I can see
it coming.
Speaker 3 (34:55):
Yeah, And like that was another big thing too, is
like when we started actually going on hunts, there was
those first couple of hunts, was it was not possible
to have a shotgun in the blind when like I
was like worrying about her the whole time, Like you
either had to handle the dog or simply just not
(35:21):
like having a shotgun there. Like you can't have two priorities.
You know, the birds weren't a priority. It was the
dog was a priority, you know. And so like the
best thing was like just not even bringing a shotgun
on those first couple of hunts. You know, it's just
working that dog, working that dog.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
Yep. Well, and that's a like I was. I was
actually talking to Lake Pickel this morning about starting you know,
he runs labs. He lives down south in Mississippi, and
we were talking about starting our dogs. You know, if
you get a spring pup, starting them on doves, you know,
there's usually the first person you can go after, or
they can be highly scoutable. Uh, you know, you can
(36:03):
set up on a dead tree next to a cattle
tank and at least shoot some out of the tree.
If you can't shoot or whatever, Like, you can get
your dog a bird, right, And in my world, a
lot of times that's either doves or it's woodcock because
they're the first kind of small bird opportunity that's really good.
But when you do, when you when you pay attention
to those opportunities, then you have those chances to like again,
(36:26):
sort of take smaller steps with your dog, right and
recognize like it's not a it's a different thing to
load up you know, the duck boat and have all
your decoys, and it's like we got to get to
the landing at two o'clock cause we've got to beat
everybody to the point whatever, versus being like, we can
wear you know, our T shirt, yeah right, and a
(36:47):
handful of shells in your pocket with somebody else and
go to those scouted doves, work a couple birds for
fifteen twenty minutes, try to get that one good positive
thing going and then leave or the was you know
the wood ducks that you know are coming into the
pond or the creek bed every day, and it's like,
you're not gonna get that. You don't want to start
(37:08):
on that big production hunt because you know those things
are gonna go wrong and you would rather have that
mostly be a training experience versus being like a hunt
for yourself for sure. So you find somebody you trust
who can run the gun, and you're like, okay, now
that's a short window, but of like a really important
one for you to be like, I'm gonna tap down
my ego and my desire to kill something and I'm
(37:30):
gonna let somebody else do it. Well, I walk my
dog through this part, because once we do this, like
the next STEP's a bigger one. But when this one's
in place, it's a really good one to have, and
if you skip it again, you're in trouble.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
Yeah, And like Ruby's first hunt was a dove hunt
out here, and yeah, I think we I mean we
had a lot of shooting, but like I didn't do
a lot of shooting, you know, I did some after
like I was like checking on her. I was like, yeah, okay, nice,
easy one comes in, I'm gonna shoot, and like, but
I was shooting like this the whole time, like almost
(38:07):
just keeping a close eye on her because like if
if anything happens, like as far as like she creeps
or she breaks, like you got to be on that
right away, yep, before she gets that bird, that reward.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
You know, that's another big thing too.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Right well, and that's a lake and I were actually
talking about that this morning. That's a that's the thing
that happens a lot when you hunt two dogs, like
not necessarily in the waterfall world, but in the upland
world a lot where it's easy to sort of view
it as a success if you have the young dog
and an older dog out and you're killing some birds. Yeah,
but what you're doing with that young dog or not
(38:43):
doing with that young dog matters a lot, and you
might be missing training opportunities, or you might be offshoring
a bunch of the important learning experiences to the old
dog because they know how to do it better and
you can get into a little trouble there. So it's
like a it's something that you have to facilitate and
be aware of. And I and I think that that's
like a I think we missed that a lot of times.
(39:06):
And I think a lot of people think, well, I
go to you know, my bird hunt is you know,
pheasants in South Dakota for five days every year and
that's what we do. The rest of the time, my
dog just trains and it's a house dog. Or I
love to hunt X, Y and Z, and that's all
I do. And it's like, man, when you have that
dog that you're developing and all of these behaviors that
you want to stick for the rest of that dog's life,
(39:27):
you know, maybe don't be above woodcock like or not.
I should even you know, yeah, I shouldn't even say
it that way, Like maybe consider every opportunity you have,
like I know.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Even pigeons too, you know, like setting up on a
dairy farm and shooting a couple of pigeons. That is
great dog training and low low steaks, right, you know.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
I had that's the first birds I shot over Sadie
were pigeons at a farm by my house, and you know,
she loved it. I love it. Like pigeon hunts great.
Speaker 3 (39:53):
I know, of course, like it's it's like it's not
duck hunting. But at the same time that it kind
of is like you're decoyed them. That spinner's going.
Speaker 1 (40:01):
Yeah it's and it's just a low pressure deal. But
that's a you know, this is maybe a totally side
tangent here, but this is one of the things that
drives me a little bit nuts about a lot of
the hunting community right now. Is I hear how there
are no opportunities on public land for this bird, this,
you know, big game animal whatever. I'm like, man, there's
(40:23):
something out there in an awful lot of places. And
one of the things that I go back to a
lot is the woodcock migration. You know, most people that
I run into aren't like die hard woodcock hunters, right like,
they would rather hunt grouse, they would rather hunt pheasants.
Something like that's like a low usually like a low
priority bird but their migration is pretty consistent in a
(40:47):
lot of places, and they don't know they're landing on
public land in the suburbs, you know what I mean. Yeah,
And so if you were to go try to find
wild birds around my house where I live in the
suburbs of the Twins, these I can find wood ducks
and teal because they're doing the same thing migratory. And
I can find woodcock very consistently on a lot of
(41:09):
public land that you will never find a grouse or
a pheasant or anything that might traditionally live there because
it's just just not going to be there. But there's
a window during that season where all of a sudden
you can have pretty cool you know, wing shooting and
upland hunting there, especially with a young dog or whatever.
And it's it's not like, you know, maybe not your
dream hunt pheasant hunt or whatever, but it's like an opportunity.
(41:33):
And maybe with that six year old dog you don't
want to do that, but that eight month old dog,
that's a different thing. Like that's that is going to
benefit you and that dog forever. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (41:43):
And like growing up in North Dakota, yeah, we had doves,
but then we also had early season Canada geese end
Like Canada geese are everywhere too, and like, yes, I
know for a young dog like that is a big
bird pick up. But like Ruby's first waterfall hunt was
(42:04):
a goose hunt out here and like yes it was
struggling of like picking up those birds and carrying them back.
But it's the same premise.
Speaker 2 (42:14):
Is she steady? Is she marking the birds? And like
are we having fun?
Speaker 1 (42:18):
You know? I mean you take what you have.
Speaker 2 (42:28):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3 (42:29):
So like you talk about the woodcock, the teal, the
wood ducks as like my opportunity for Ruby that first
her first fall were doves and geese.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Yeah, you work, you literally have to work with what
you exactly and just try to set them up for that.
So how old is she now?
Speaker 2 (42:49):
She's gonna be five in July.
Speaker 1 (42:51):
And she is uh, super duper pregnant, super duper. So
you decided to breed her?
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (42:57):
Where did that come from?
Speaker 2 (42:59):
That was kind of like also with like.
Speaker 3 (43:03):
Me getting her, one of the stipulations was like hey,
like we're gonna do this and we're gonna bread her
when time's right.
Speaker 1 (43:15):
And so you were just that was just it, huh, yeah,
are you taking a puppy.
Speaker 3 (43:19):
I'm not taking a puppy from this litter. So my
wife and I, how hard is that? I don't think
it's that too difficult.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Is it hard for your wife?
Speaker 3 (43:29):
No, I don't think so she doesn't want a No, well,
I mean I think we're gonna do like probably like
maybe a couple more litters, and so this first one
is probably not.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (43:41):
We're just my wife and I are just not ready
for a puppy right now. So, I mean, my wife
is there. When Ruby was a puppy, when she was
my girlfriend of like three months, right, and that first
fall was a big task and a big ask from her,
like because I was alwa obviously traveling.
Speaker 1 (43:59):
But so she had her hands on that puppy a lot.
Speaker 2 (44:02):
Yeah, big time.
Speaker 3 (44:04):
And she was also going to grad school and trying
to finish the masters, and yeah, I put a lot
of stress on her, Yeah, a lot.
Speaker 2 (44:12):
So, but yeah, we don't need puppy right now. So
it's not what am I trying to say, It's not
like a big concern for us right now.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Right, she's five, I know, so you're like, I mean
probably within the next couple of years, right, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (44:28):
For sure, yeah, because like I mean, some dogs people
hunt them to what ten, but like at that seven
eight range is like they're kind of like down going
down the hill, you know, ye, slowing down and hunting less.
And I mean they're just they're workhorses, so like it's
just like an old car engine, like they're just gonna
(44:49):
slowly go down, you know.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
Oh, I know, yeah, I got to I have a
fully retired lab right now. Sure. I felt like I
waited a year or too long.
Speaker 2 (44:59):
To how old did you get the suit?
Speaker 1 (45:02):
I waited until I got the puppy when Luna was eight, Okay,
so I was I was going to get one a
year earlier, but I didn't really want to get divorced,
and so I decided not to. I highly doubt that
I'll wait that long now. So Sadie turned forward this spring,
and I think, I don't know, within two years for sure,
(45:25):
maybe maybe next spring. I mean, I haven't decided yet,
but I'm just curious about that because it's like it
just flies by when you have that prime age dog,
and they are just like autopilot, you know. I mean,
they're fun to train, they're amazing to hunt with, Like
you know what they're going to give you and they're
going to give you everything. But then that it starts
(45:46):
to like hit that window you're talking about where I
feel like with Luna, I probably saw, you know, the
recovery time started to take a little longer and like
maybe like a little of the edge come off throughout
the day at eight and then by ten I was like, oh, man,
like for sure she's still gonna go. But it's just,
you know, it's just that's just what happens. But having
(46:08):
two dogs is a big consideration.
Speaker 3 (46:11):
Yeah, and it's a big commitment too, right, and not
to mention it's like a one dog is already expensive
for like food that bills. Now just put another one
on top of that, you know. But yeah, at some
point we will we will get another dog, and it's
probably gonna be from Ruby too.
Speaker 1 (46:29):
You think. So, Yeah, do you find yourself she's a
really good dog? Yea, like really well trained. That's why
I want to talk to you, because for it to
be your first dog that you're like really working through
and like committed to, she's awesome. Uh, do you find
do you find yourself thinking about what you're gonna do
different with the next one?
Speaker 3 (46:49):
And number one thing is like and like this would
be so much different if I could dedicate my time
twenty four to seven just to like a hunting dog,
but I always can't, you know, like I have to
have that hunting dog but also a family dog. And
like one one big thing I would say for my
next dog is no tennis balls, right, which is huge,
(47:13):
you know, but like if I'm away, a simple thing
for the wife to go do is go to the
park and play chuck it for twenty minutes, you know.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
And like, so do you say that because it teaches
your dog to spit that out?
Speaker 2 (47:25):
I wouldn't say spit but chomp. Oh okay, yeah, And
like I've had to do some training of like.
Speaker 3 (47:35):
Just like creating that soft mouth again, you know, and
like yeah, I mean she's no dog is perfect, right,
but like I can definitely see a correlation between that
chuck it.
Speaker 2 (47:48):
Right and like her chomping on birds.
Speaker 3 (47:50):
Yeah, you know, so yeah, I would definitely say no
chuck it, no tennis balls.
Speaker 1 (47:57):
Yeah, that's a big thing, man. That is so common.
I mean that, y I noticed that with my dogs.
With my dogs, I don't notice is the hard mouth
thing coming in as much as just them testing the
boundaries or whether they got to hold the whole time,
like because they'll come back and spit it out at
my feet. If if my dog's like if my wife
(48:18):
and kids take them up to the lake, I know
it's the chuck it situation, and I know there's a
pretty good chance the first time we go out to
the park or wherever, that they're gonna just try just
like Andy, they know, but they're like, Okay, well I
got away with it, and it's like, I don't know
it just it's it's a good lesson that not only
everybody who has a hand on your dog should follow
(48:41):
your rules.
Speaker 2 (48:42):
They might exactly.
Speaker 3 (48:42):
And that's another thing I was going to say, is
like there's got to be a commitment from you in
training this dog, but then whoever is watching this dog
when you're away, right, you know, And like thankfully Alex
has been like super.
Speaker 2 (48:55):
Great about.
Speaker 3 (48:57):
Making her heel, making her sits listener by name, like incredible,
Like I sometimes still get on her about it, like hey,
just remember, like make sure she sits and if she's
like creeps, get her back at heel. You know, but
there's got to be a commitment from both, right, both people.
Speaker 1 (49:15):
So that is a it's a really tough thing. And
I mean it only gets tougher when you have kids,
oh god. But it's just it's a good reminder that
you can put in tons of work like you did
and learn and figure out how to really level that
dog up and create something super special with it. But
you can't. Oh you can't take your foot completely off
(49:37):
the gas their whole life.
Speaker 3 (49:39):
Yeah, And like that's another thing too, is like I
would say, in the last like two summers, training has
become not really.
Speaker 2 (49:54):
A priority.
Speaker 3 (49:55):
It's almost like, oh, I trained her up to here,
Now I can let the foot off the gas, but
I you can't do that, you know, like you still
got to keep her sharp keeper, keep challenging them, keep
them using their brains too, because like how much brain
power does it take to like watch a tennis ball
go out in the field, go out, grab it and
(50:16):
come right back and do that twenty thirty times?
Speaker 2 (50:19):
You know?
Speaker 1 (50:19):
Yep? Well, I mean that's a We filmed some content
on that yesterday about different environments, thinking through what like
why would your dog be bored? Or is your dog
bored in this situation? Most likely yes, because we sort
of muddy the waters between actual training and just getting
your dog some exercise exactly. And you know, I mean
(50:42):
working with your dog's great, but like you said, if
you're not challenging their brain and doing some different stuff
with them, they're gonna get bored and you're gonna have
behaviors manifest out of that aren't great. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (50:50):
And I'll be the first to say, like, the last
couple of years, I've been bad about that.
Speaker 1 (50:54):
I mean, I think that's a very consistent thing when
you I mean I always tell people, like they'll ask
me about like my dog sometimes and I'll be like,
I really think that the first two years most important.
You go so hard. Yeah, and it's easy you can
back off some, but you still have to pay attention
and you still have to understand that that training is
important for your dog, like your dog's mental health as
(51:17):
well as just keeping them sharp. And it is easy
to sort of think that you're like, well, the job's
kind of done, like I can yeah, and I think
everybody does that, but it is like there are moments
where you notice that where you're like you're in the
field or something where you're like, oh that slipped. Yeah, yeah, sure,
And that sucks. Like we worked really hard at that
and now that dog's like I don't want to do that,
and I don't think I have to.
Speaker 2 (51:38):
Yeah, and like.
Speaker 3 (51:40):
The whole hunt test thing is like we don't have
to get into it because there's a whole nother can
of worms. But like I wanted to test Ruby title her.
Speaker 2 (51:51):
In Like once I reached that.
Speaker 3 (51:56):
Title of Hunting Retrieve Champion, it was like, oh, okay,
sounds good. And like I didn't do much of training
last summer, you know, because like we had that title
and like we're busy. I was getting married, moving houses,
you know, like we just didn't have time for it.
And so like I really didn't have a goal for
(52:18):
my training, which was huge. And I've noticed that too.
Is like if I have that goal, like I'm waking
up two hours earlier to like make sure that training happens,
you know.
Speaker 1 (52:26):
Ye.
Speaker 3 (52:28):
So yeah, like that's another big thing, is like just
like have a goal in mind too, right.
Speaker 1 (52:33):
I mean that's this might might seem crazy, but I
think that's so important and I think it's a primary
driver behind at least myself doing more stuff with my dogs,
Like you know, the shed dog thing burned really hot
for a while and I trained my dogs to do that,
and like written it's on articles whatever. People ask about
(52:54):
it a lot, and I'm like, I don't I don't
care about finding more sheds. I have enough sheds, Like
I don't need anymore. I like being out in the
woods and.
Speaker 2 (53:03):
Getting some exercise for yourself.
Speaker 1 (53:04):
Right, I mean, it's just it's just a I just
enjoy walking through the woods with my dog, But training
my dogs to shed hunt is just a it's just
another thing. And so it's like another excuse to do
something with them and have them work on something that's
more visual than scent based and just kind of like
add it into the mix. And it's like, I'm super
(53:25):
excited this year. I think I'm in a film, a
project where I get to go hunt some upland species.
I don't hunt very much. I used to kind of
try to make it make it a priority to hit
sharpies and pray chickens and quail when I could, and
it's just, you know, I just haven't had as much time.
And this year is kind of a priority for me
in doing that kind of stuff, just to just opening
(53:46):
up your aperture to the opportunities changes how you look
at your dog and what you want to do with them. Yeah,
you know, because you go from like if I go
from the cattails where it's tight work and my dogs
are close and you know, the hunt dead things huge
because you know, right, it's just a there's there are
unique challenges to that habitat. And then I go where
you know, Sharpie's and prairie chickens live, and my dog
(54:10):
is like I need to stay close, And I'm like,
you don't have to stay as close now, buddy, because
we have thousands of acres of grassland to hunt and
I don't know where these birds are because I don't
know shit about them. Like I love that stuff because
it gets you just into like a For me as
an owner, it just gives me like a different mindset
where I'm like, Okay, now my hand signals are more important,
Like I need to think about wind in a different way.
(54:31):
And and I know that, like I know people are
listening to this andre like I'm not going to go
out west and hunt those birds or whatever. When you
think about the opportunities like we talked about earlier with
the doves and the woodcock, and you know, you starting
your dog on geese. It's like, in your state, there's
probably multiple kinds of opportunities that are available on public
(54:52):
land or public waters that you know, I think about
my home state of Minnesota. I can go up north
and hunt grouse and woodcut, find some small ponds with
some puddle ducks. And I can go to western Minnesota
and hunt those cattail sleus that are gonna have roosters
once in a while you run into a hun's out there,
(55:13):
not very often, once in a while, but also the
duck situation out there is way different, pretty cool, you know.
And you think about that, and then I could go
to where I grew up in southeastern Minnesota, and it's
like you might find a pheasant, you might find a grouse,
but you got a lot of little trout streams, you
got a lot of interior kind of rivers, and then
you got the Mississippi. So you're like, okay, you right,
(55:33):
you might not have upland opportunities, but you might be
able to scout out some small water ducks on those
streams that a lot of them have run through public
land or get into the backwaters. And it's like, that's
just in my home state. I don't need a non
resident license for it. You know, it might be a
hour to a four hour drive, a camping trip or whatever,
but the opportunities are there, and the more that you
(55:55):
find them, the more you're just like, I have more
to do with my and more to train and more
to think about, and it's just the whole relationship changes.
Speaker 2 (56:04):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
It's amazing.
Speaker 3 (56:06):
Yeah, and it's awesome too, And I love every single
moment of being out there with your best friend, you.
Speaker 1 (56:15):
Know, right. So speaking of that, let's wrap this sucker up.
I have one last question for you. What's the best
retrieve she's ever done? What's the one where you were like,
oh my god, oh man. I mean, there's been so
many of them where I'm like, holy crap, did that
just happen? But honestly, like.
Speaker 3 (56:39):
I don't really have one retrieve that stands out, but
I have like one hunt where it was just like
clockwork spring snow geese her first year, or I guess
it was like her fall spring snow geese, so technically
it was still her first year hunting.
Speaker 1 (57:00):
We're up in Canada, okay, and.
Speaker 3 (57:04):
So up there it's black fields, white birds, and it
was just like an incredible four days of hunting up there,
and I could just see her confidence get built and
built and built, just because those white birds in a
black field just some of those marks and some of
(57:26):
those blinder trees were just absolutely just out of this world.
And like, I know, you're not supposed to like quote
unquote test a dog. You're supposed to train a dog
to be able to do these things. But there was
a couple just incredible marks where three four hundred yard marks,
(57:46):
and I'm just like, okay, you ready for this, and
just sent her and it was just full speed ahead
all the way there, all the way back, just countless
number of trees. And yeah, that's one of my most
favorite hunting trips with her as a whole.
Speaker 1 (58:03):
So that was that was sort of like a watershed
moment for her, partially due to the environment and the birds,
because making a you know, a three hundred yard mark
on in most hunting situations, that birds lost, like visually lost, right, yes,
like at a certain point, but those birds would hit
(58:23):
sale hit that black dirt somewhere, and that dog could
keep a mark on them three football fields away and
take a straight line to him and build that confidence
and go it doesn't matter how far away they are.
They send me, he sends me on this line. I'm
going and I'm coming back with a bird exactly.
Speaker 3 (58:37):
And that was just so beneficial in like her learning curve,
just with marks and blind retrieves too, you know, just
like it really.
Speaker 2 (58:48):
Spread our distance out. You know. It wasn't the classic.
Speaker 3 (58:52):
Fifty yard throw from a bumper or whatever like that,
or from like a dummy launcher.
Speaker 2 (58:58):
You know, like it was just.
Speaker 3 (58:59):
Like real world practical. I shouldn't say real world practical,
but it was just cool hunting and just a cool
experience for that dog too.
Speaker 1 (59:11):
Well. I mean, that's that specific scenario is sort of
a happy accident thing where you're like, you wouldn't nobody
would take their dog to that specific situation for that reason. No,
but finding yourself in that situation and seeing what that
is doing for her is like the light bulb goes
(59:32):
off and you're like, oh boy, like this is a
this is an important day or an important trip for
this dog.
Speaker 3 (59:39):
Yeah, And like ever since then it was just like
just cool. I mean, every retrieve since then, it was
just like you could just still see that confidence just
there right the whole time. And so like, yeah, you
asked me for like one retrieve, but like from that
four day period, I mean, every single retrieve from that
trip was incredible.
Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
It's like so rewarding for me.
Speaker 1 (01:00:02):
How many birds do you think she picked up on
that trip?
Speaker 2 (01:00:05):
Over two hundred?
Speaker 1 (01:00:06):
Yeah, yeah, yeah right, you know, like and.
Speaker 3 (01:00:09):
Like that's just something also beneficial for a dog is
like repetition them picking up birds too, is like so
great for him too.
Speaker 1 (01:00:17):
Yeah. I mean, I will never forget I had a
conversation with Doc and when I was I think I
was working Luna and you know, you kind of I
take it for granted, right, but we can get on
so many different species of birds upland and waterfall within
you know, a couple hours of my house, yep. And
(01:00:39):
I remember him telling me, like, you have no idea
how lucky you are to be able to get your
dog that much bird exposure wild bird exposure, yeah, in
a single season and all these different scenarios, because that
is what makes a dog Like that's that's like the
real final piece of the puzzle.
Speaker 3 (01:00:58):
Like you can be like a leatherman like utility, like
can do anything.
Speaker 1 (01:01:03):
Right, but you can train your ass off and you
know that dog can be perfect in a in a
training scenario, but that dog doesn't get to hunt, get
that bird, that bird contact, it doesn't become the next
thing like it just you just have to have that
piece and being able to facilitate that somehow. Like you said,
you know, you go on to goose hunt, your dog
(01:01:24):
retrieves two hundred geese. You're like, well, this is going
to shape this dog in a positive way forever. And
that's not I mean, it's not available to everyone, but
like recognizing that that's a like the component is the
bird contact. So however, you you know, if you can't
get two hundred birds in five days, which is everyone, yeah,
pretty much like there are other ways to try to
(01:01:46):
do it. I always tell you know, I do well.
My favorite thing is to hunt peasants right late SI's
and pheasants. And when I have buddies who have puppies
or young dogs and they don't want to make the
drive out, I'm like, you don't understand how many bird
comes contag your dog's gonna get in like a four
day hunt, you know, like I go even yeah, even
if you go grouse hunting and it's really good, you're
(01:02:10):
not you could have. You could walk into one pheasant
slough and in the right situation, with the right conditions,
your dog could could push up more birds in that
in ten minutes than they might in ten days of
grouse hunting. You know, I mean, I'm being a little
bit facetious here, but like it's it's just like that
specific scenario is going to help your dog level up
(01:02:32):
so much because it's going to get its nose on
so much scent. It's so awesome, Max. Everybody who wants
to see your work knows where to go. You're a
meat eater guy, I would say the top seven videographers
we have.
Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
Oh really, I appreciate that.
Speaker 1 (01:02:48):
Now you do an amazing job. Ruby's a badass. Thanks
for coming on, man, I really appreciate you.
Speaker 2 (01:02:53):
No, I hope you get a hunt over here sometimes.
So next time you're out here come January December.
Speaker 1 (01:02:58):
Dude, I hope sometimes chase some ducks. I hope one
time when I come to Montana I get to do
something fun. I know. I'm sorry, it'll happen, buddy. Thanks man,
all right, thanks doinging
Host
Cal Callaghan
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