Ep. 427: Houndations - Developing Well-Trained Dogs the Right Way with Josh Miller - Cal of the Wild

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hey, everybody, Welcome to the Foundation's podcast. I'm your host
Tony Peterson, and today I'm chatting with my good buddy
Josh Miller, owner of Riverstone Kennels and all around badass
dog trainer. Look, this is a fun one for me.
Josh is a great dude who has been a dog
trainer for a long time now. I have to say

(00:22):
I just love his approach. He's realistic about dogs and
their abilities, while still asking a lot out of them
and holding them accountable. He's also just fair and entirely
focused on the long game development of sporting dogs. In
this episode, we get into all kinds of topics, including
managing old hunting dogs, developing dual purpose hunting dogs, and

(00:43):
just learning to take a slow and steady approach to
ensure that our sporting dogs can reach their full potential.
So buckle up because he drops a ton of killer
info on this one. Josh Miller, it's good to see you,
buddy YouTube by.

Speaker 2 (01:00):
Thanks for having me on.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
Uh, you're one of my favorite people to talk to
in the industry. You know, you and I have known
each other uh pretty long now, I mean I think
we probably met when you were like early young twenties. Uh,
you've been You've been going hard with Riverstone Kennel's. Your
wife's out there, we helping puppies like crazy. I see
you getting the kids involved. You're a busy fella and

(01:21):
I know that. Uh, so thank you for coming on.
I've been looking forward to this one for a while.

Speaker 3 (01:27):
Yeah, man, likewise, you know, it's funny that you say that,
because I was actually thinking about that before jumping on here.
Now we've known each other for a long time and
just kind of the growth that we both had during
that time, and you know, the kind of the path
that they've you know, taken, and how we've taken those paths.
But one thing that I do really love about this
industry is like your friendships like you and I have,

(01:48):
you know, like you know, the the growth that we've had,
and you're still you know, I could not talk to
you for eight months and you know, call you up
and we talked like we you know, just talked yesterday.
So uh, it's been fun man, It's fun you seeing
you doing this show. And he's done so great in
the past with the other shows, so you haven't excited
to be on here.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
So I was I was thinking about that, because I
think the first our first point of contact was at
game fair here in the in the Twin Cities. I'm
sure that's where we met first. But I remember interviewing
you for a gun Dog magazine article. I mean probably
like ten years ago now, nine, ten years ago on
Chad Antler's and I remember thinking, like, this guy, this

(02:29):
guy not only knows his shit, he's probably gonna be
here a while, like, because you know how it is, like,
sometimes sometimes you bump across people who are kind of
like a rising star and for whatever reason, usually because
the business side drags them down. You know, they like
the they like a little bit of a recognition and
being sort of known as like a flashy new trainer
or whatever. But the people who can't manage the business

(02:50):
side of things usually get flushed out pretty quick. But
you're still here, You're still crushing it.

Speaker 3 (02:55):
Uh.

Speaker 1 (02:56):
I want to talk to you about dual purpose dogs
upland dogs that also do waterfall vice versa. But also
just what dogs are capable of because you do a
lot of different stuff with dogs. You train a lot
of different ways, you're involved in a lot of different things.
But before we get into that, I saw a post

(03:17):
you guys put up over there on Instagram where you
had an eleven and a half year old lab yellow lab,
I think out in North Dakota. I think it had
a sharpie in its mouth, sharp tail. You took an
eleven and a half year old dog out there and
hunted with it? How did that go?

Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yeah? So it was actually probably a hen Mallard is
probably what it was. Yeah, because we didn't do any
elkland hunting. But man, like, I'll tell you what so
I have I'm in for a lot of heartbreak. My
family's in for a lot of heartbreak here in the
next few years because I've got I have two setters.
That one is fourteen and you know, she currently has cancer,

(04:00):
so she's you know, she's unfortunately on her final you know,
a few probably days here. I have my other setter
who is twelve and a half. He he has a
heart murmur and you he kind of have some health issues.
And then I've got you know, Clyde, who who's the
dog you're talking about there.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
He's a Yello Lab.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
He's been a part of our breeding program, you know,
for a long time. Uh, he's yeah, he's eleven and
a half. And I've got Brock who's one of our
other he's probably the most well known lab. So we
have the breeding program. He's ten and a half. And
so you just kind of started going down the line.
You're like, oh my gosh, like this is you know,
you know what's coming right, Like you know, I always
tell people like, you know, you sign up for this day,

(04:42):
you sign up for that day when you pick up
any dog, or you'll bring a dog in your family,
And honestly, I just feel blessed that you know, we've
got you know, between those four dogs, we have four
very full lights, you know that we've lived. And so
I am very grateful for that. But it does it
changes a lot of things, you know. So like that
dog you're talking about there, there's a reason he went

(05:04):
out to North Dakota for opener, right, So I'm always
trying to find where the easiest hunts, you know. So
for a dog like that, like he's still very happy
and very active, but he's to a point that you know,
his heart wants to say yes, yes, yes, but sometimes
the legs don't always agree with that, or you know,
the needs don't always agree with that. So so I
do manage Uh, you know, both he and Brock a

(05:24):
little differently. Like those two man they've traveled the country
with me. They've been up in Canada, they've done all
these places, and they've done everything from you know, you
know breaking ice to you know big water to you know,
big field set ups, blood the field set ups, you
have the whole nine yards. But now at this point,
it was both of them where their hard is saying

(05:45):
yes and their legs aren't saying no. I'm trying to
put them in the position where they don't have to
you'll really fight the legs saying no. Right, So I'm
trying to find, you know, the easiest hunts they can
so generally speaking, you know, an opener hunt like what
we're talking about here in North Dakota this last week.
That's about as easy hunt I could I could come
up with. Because I always say, when I go to
the Dakota's, if I don't have to pack waiters, I'm

(06:08):
not packing waits. So I love dry field hunting and
I want to be you know, you know, early season,
it's a lot of stubble fields. Uh, but it's my goodness,
such easy setups for these dogs, right, those stubble fields
are great little setups, you know, for the dogs.

Speaker 2 (06:21):
They're not fighting water, they're not fighting muck, you know.

Speaker 3 (06:24):
There we can set them up in a place that
is just easy on them body wise. And then I
just have to be smart, right, So, like I'm not
going to line him up on two hundred and fifty
hour blind and even attempt it, right because like for him, especially,
the one thing I'm fighting with him is he's he's
losing his hearing, and so it was it was interesting,
is that he can hear certain things really well. So

(06:45):
like a lot of times, what I'll do on our
Riverstone Kennel's social pages is I'll do stories on our
hunts and kind of you show people and kind of
bring them into I oftentimes don't even pull the trigger.

Speaker 2 (06:55):
I'm just kind of running my phone and doing the videos.

Speaker 3 (06:57):
I really want to show these hunts from a dog
centric side, you know, because for me, that's why I'm there. Like,
I mean, shoot, I think I waterfall hundred ninety two
days last year, and I don't think I went through
a full case of show. Yeah, I just like I
love being out there with the dogs. I love being
being present with them, and you know, so I'm always
trying to tell the story through the dogs, you'll len,

(07:17):
So I'm always trying to show that side of it.
But you know, as people saw in that story, and
there were times that you know, boom, boom, boom, you know,
birds fall, and I kind of pan over to Clyde
and I'm like, Clyde, you just send him, and he
doesn't move. I'm like, Clyde, he doesn't move. Clyde, he
doesn't move. And then finally like, I don't know if
he was a pitch. I don't know if he you know,
just he heard it and boom, he's gone. But then

(07:38):
the whistle, if I had a whistle stop him, I'd
both a whistle and his boom.

Speaker 2 (07:41):
He's right there.

Speaker 3 (07:41):
He turned around, he's looking for a cast, so you
could obviously hear the whistle really well. And so that's
why I'm saying, like, I'm not even gonna attempt running
a big blind with him, because what if he can't
hear me? What if he gets you know, so for me,
handling changes, right, So I just have to put him
in these situations to succeed.

Speaker 2 (07:57):
And uh, and I'll tell you what, man like it.

Speaker 3 (08:01):
It makes you appreciate things differently, you know, like I
think we all go through those early dog phases where
naturally there's gonna be the frustration of basically you have,
you know, a freshman, you know, trying to play on
the varsity team, like he's not really ready for it yet.
There's a lot to learn, there's a lot to take in,
and then you kind of get to the point that hey,
like you know, now you've got the starter on the team, right,

(08:22):
like the prime and then you get to this phase
and you know the reality is that for me, like
I I just and this is where I encourage people,
you know to kind of go with the flow of
your dog, Like if you're there for the dog, you'll
be conscious of that, Like, don't be put in your
old dog any big difficult hunts to where you know
it's gonna it's gonna hurt, it's gonna.

Speaker 2 (08:43):
You know, be you know, very difficult. It's gonna you
set them up for failure. You know.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
For me, that's where I just really try a cherry
pick you know, those uh, those hunts, and then too
then afterwards, right the recovery, like I make sure that
I have you know, I have the proper medst at
home to where when we come back, I don't wanted
to be sore the next day. I handle him differently too,
Like a lot of times when we're traveling, especially in
North Dakota, you know, I bring a couple of crates,
and you know my dogs, when they're not hunting, they'll

(09:10):
be in those crates, and of course they take them
for a walk and exercise, of course, but you know
they're in those crates. Well, not for him, right especially
after he goes to he runs a bunch. I'm not
going to have him, you know, lay in a crate
where he's gonna get stiff, he's going to have a
hard time. So it's definitely different. But I'll tell you what,
man like, I just think if you if you can
put your ego aside and you can really do the

(09:31):
hunt for the dog. I think there's so much to
appreciate Aboth, you know, just this. Appreciate the gray hairs,
Appreciate the experience. Appreciate that here he is at eleven
and a half years old and he wants to be
nowhere else and right there.

Speaker 2 (09:44):
I mean that that's just it's special.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
But what are you using so recovery wise? Because that's
a big issue. You know, my my older lab is
twelve and a half now, so she is definitely I mean,
she's she's as retired as she's ever going to be.
I might take her out and do a small walk
her duck thing with her. Yet like I'm I'm kind
of looking at that because I could get her to
walk one hundred yards to this pond and sit next

(10:06):
to me and that that would be it. Right, But
what are what are you using like when you when
you bring a dog like that home after it's it's done,
you know that hunt North Dakota whatever, Like, what are
you giving it to help with the quality of life?

Speaker 3 (10:21):
Yeah? You know, so one, I think feeding a proper
nutrition is very very important, and I think there's a
couple your brands out there that do a really good
job at eating or at providing a very premium food.
You know, it's just like an athlete, right like you
don't see you know, any of these your you know,
big athletes, you know they're not you know, driving through

(10:41):
and filling up on McDonald's on the way home from
practice every day, right like you're fueling the right way
is a really big part of this. You know, but
then like especially to all that that like, yeah, I'm
bringing you some meds like rimadol or car profit which
is very similar, and yeah, I'm having that on hand
to where it's basically like a call like an advil
or an ibuprofen, you know, for these dogs, to where

(11:03):
like for Clyde, like he is gonna be sore. There's
just no doubt about it. He's going to be sore.
So what what can I do to help him manage that?
Because to me, that's the difference of you know, him
getting one hunt in on this trip or maybe you
know two or three. I'm also not hunting him back
to back days, just wearing him out. And one, you know,
one thing I should clarify too is you know, because
you had mentioned Tony, you had mentioned that you want

(11:26):
to do maybe a small water hunt you with your
older dog.

Speaker 2 (11:29):
Some dogs.

Speaker 3 (11:30):
The water hunt is the easy hunt, right, especially if
it's the right water for Clyde. So Clyde had an
injury when he was probably you know, six, and he
really jammed his shoulder really bad. And now he's good now,
but he does get really sore on the shoulder. And
one thing that my bet said was that you know,
swimming is actually going to be more difficult for him

(11:50):
because that's swimming motion.

Speaker 2 (11:52):
It's gonna be it's gonna hurt him more.

Speaker 3 (11:54):
You can see it, like he still does water work, Uh,
but he doesn't want to do it like he used to, right,
so you can hell he knows that. So for me,
that's where I go, Okay, what is your easy hunt? Well,
your easy hunt to stay out of the water right
where you know, like your dog doing it like your
dog might be. The easy hunt might be in the
water because it's not the pounding on the body right.
So to me, it's all about find what your hunt it.

(12:15):
I really think, you know, waterfall hunts, especially for these
older dogs, it's so much easier than even going on
on a half hour to an hour you know long
upland walk you know, just naturally right, It's just it's
less wear and tear. They're still out there, they're still
doing everything they want to do, you know, but instead
of an hour long run, you're you're doing you know,

(12:37):
six to ten, you know, thirty second you know, sprints
if you will, you know, So it's just easier on them.

Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, and that's I mean, that's a really good point
because my dog responds the best now to swimming. If
if she spends any any amount of time running around,
even in you know, working a little bit of fun,
retrieves in a soccer field or something, I can tell
she needs to recover from that. And she she does

(13:02):
as well from swimming too, but she seems to respond
more positively from that, And so that's that's a really
good point. How did your dog? How did your dog
do that shoulder injury? What did that come from?

Speaker 3 (13:14):
You know, I can't remember exactly what it was now
because I don't think it was anything that was like boom,
there was injury eyes all of a sudden one day,
he just was like really favorite of that one shoulder.
And one thing I think is so neat is like
when you get a really good vet, like one that
is so sporting dog specific, especially, that's when they can
really dial and tell you those types of things. Because

(13:35):
it probably would have taken me a significant amount of
time to realize, well, the swimming is harder on him right, Well,
because my vet is sporting dogs specific and knows that's
what I do. You know, she was able to say, hey,
just you know know, going into this, this is going
to be more difficult for him. So for me, I'm
always looking for how can I get the most out
of him. Well, if swimming hurts him, I'm not going

(13:57):
to force him to be back in there swimming in
the water. I can run a similar type of concept
on land and make it to where it's not discomforting
for him. Now. Of course there are times like when
it's hot in the summer, right, Like I still want
to do even if it's little water work. But then
for me, especially being older, right, but even you know,
even after that injury, it's like, well, I'm not really

(14:18):
going to push you and force you through anything that's
super technical or studio because you know you're gonna be
fighting a pain or discomfort too. So to me, you know,
I'm always looking at that per dog, right, So every
dog is going to be different with that, you know.

Speaker 2 (14:31):
Brock case of Brock. I really wanted this to be that.

Speaker 3 (14:34):
It was my two old dogs that I took out there,
So I was planning on being out there for about
six seven days. And I'm really really big on scouting,
So I love duck hunting in particular, I love waterfall
hunting in general, but I love Duck, and I just
really enjoy the process. Right, So I would rather spend
two days scouting and one day hunting, spend two more

(14:57):
days scouting one day hunting, rather than right up, you
hunt every morning, scout every afternoon and just try to
get a bunch of hunting, like I wanted to be
really successful. I think the dogs you enjoy it more.
I think we enjoy more. And then too, like instead
of getting you know, two to three birds on hunt,
you know, we can shoot five sixed man limit, and
you know, the dogs get more work. And I just

(15:17):
think for me, I enjoy that part, but I really
enjoyed this cutting process too. And uh so my plan
was if we're out there for you know, seven days
and can get you know, four hunts in, well, then
each of the dogs are gonna get two. And so
Brock again he's ten and a half. He had I
was really nervous that he did something to his acl
because he was really favored in his back right leg

(15:38):
really bad. And so we brought him in it and
they think he just tweaked his groin. So of course
still not going to bring him. Still need time, you know,
to recover, and of course your recovery time at ten
and a half is not what it would have been
at you know, two and a half. And uh so
unfortunately he didn't get to go. But but now for me, now,
my objective now is Okay, where's that next easy hunt?

(15:59):
Right where the next easy hunt that I can can
get brought into and then Clyde like, man, it's a
heart heartbreaking thing to think about.

Speaker 2 (16:06):
But it's like any one of these hunts could be
the last one.

Speaker 3 (16:09):
And I promise you, man, that is in the forefront
of my mind every single time I send them Murray
treat But especially when I'm like wandering down towards the
end of a hunt. Man, it's like you just don't know,
you don't know if it's the last one, and you
know it's it's I'm just glad that I'm at an
age now where I feel like I can appreciate that.
I feel like when I was you know, when I

(16:30):
lost Ethan, Yeah, I was gosh, I probably laid twenties
and I think I understood it, But I don't think
I understood like I understand it now. You know, It's
just it's you know, you just go through your life
and you you have these experiences and you realize that
every single time, every time you say that name, which

(16:50):
could be the last time.

Speaker 2 (16:51):
And that's that's pretty heavy.

Speaker 1 (16:53):
Oh buddy, I know, man, dealing with this, with having
Luna b twelve and a half is just tough. I
mean it's but like you said, I you know, my
last dog died at six. That was a disaster, this dog.
And you know, I talked to Doc about it a lot,
especially when I was getting getting Luna. It's like at
a certain point you realize you've you've done so much

(17:17):
with these dogs, you know, like I think about my
big regrets with my last one. We're like, I just
didn't get to do a whole bunch of stuff. You know,
when your dog dies at you know, prime age, you're like,
we didn't go here, we didn't do this, We could
have done this more, and it really sucks. But when
you when you take care of them and you manage
them like you're talking about. I mean, Luna hunted a
little bit last year, but two years ago I had

(17:39):
her out pheasant hunting and still doing the stuff that
she loves. Shot some grouse and ducks and woodcock with her.
And I look back at her life with me, and
I'm like, man, that dog we did a lot. We
did a lot of shed hunting, we did a lot
of waterfall hunting, a ton of upland, and I'm like,
she lived a good life. And so now it's just
a matter of like, is there any little opportunity to

(18:00):
kind of squeeze it in for her or do something
that's still good for But the overall theme that you
talked about there where like it's in the back of
your mind that you send that dog out, and it's
like this could be the last one ever with this
dog that never that doesn't go away. Think about it
all the time, Like I mean, this is like morbid
to joke about. But I come home sometimes and you know,

(18:21):
if Luna's sitting or sleeping in you know, on her
dog bed in our bedroom. You know, she's not meeting
me at the door like the pupp is. You know,
Sadie's there waiting, tail going nuts. And every time I
walk in, I'm like, God, I hope she's still alive,
you know, because it's like she's not there like there
like she was. And you know, then I'll hear her
clombing down the hallway and you're like, Okay, well we

(18:44):
got one more day. But just knowing it's coming sucks
so much.

Speaker 3 (18:49):
Yeah, yeah, man, I think the hardest part for me
is yeah, and unfortunately most of us have to make
the decisions, right, Like yeah, I cannot tell you, man,
how many times I prayed, please just let me wake up,
and and it was peaceful in the sleep, and you know,
and you know, unfortunate and and every situation is just different,

(19:13):
right like I can, like, like I said earlier, like
talking about your six year old dog, man, like obviously
through the years now with how many clients and how
many dollars have trained and how many you puppy clients,
you know, we've had, and you know, there's freak accidents
and there's things that happen and and yeah, I mean
you just you just feel for that. And one thing
that that's really interesting is like, you know, my first
dog that I lost, I was filled with so much regret, man,

(19:36):
Like I I was like, gosh, I didn't I didn't
you know, he never he never went to Canada, he
never went to Arkansas. I never went to all these things, which,
of course now now is a norm for my dollars,
you know, and but he didn't know that, you know,
like he was just he was just happy to go.
You know, he was happy to go on a little
pond hunting in Wisconsin with me and shoot two wood ducks.

Speaker 2 (19:55):
You know, like he just thought, yeah.

Speaker 3 (19:56):
And so to me, it's so interesting because like I
have those conversations with people, Yeah, fairly often. It happens
more and more all the time, because you know, the
longer that you're in the game, the more you know
dogs and people that you're able to connect with and
be a part of their life.

Speaker 2 (20:10):
You know, they move on, and it's.

Speaker 3 (20:13):
Just so interesting, Like you know, there's there I think
there's always gonna be that regret of if you didn't
get to do something, you know with that dog. And
but man, like we look at all the all the
things you did get to do with them, right, and
like some of them, some of us just situational. Like
my first dog, Matt I had in high school and
in college, I couldn't afford gas to go to the trip,

(20:33):
let alone actually go on the hunting trip, right, So like, yeah,
if he just had me in a time of my
life where or that wasn't a thing, And so I
do the more and more. It's just to me, it's
just like, man, I just want every one of these
dogs to get the most out of their life or
out of their time with me. And you know, fortunately enough,
you know I have a profession where I can do that.
But man, like that that decision, to me is that's

(20:57):
the worst day, you know, you having to make that,
because you're always going to have like was it the
right time?

Speaker 2 (21:02):
Was it the young and uh?

Speaker 3 (21:04):
But then again again, like you wouldn't get a puppy
and sign up for that day all over again if
that ride wasn't worth having to make that decision, right.

Speaker 1 (21:14):
You You mentioned way earlier about you know, handling your
your older dogs, and the first thing you said was
proper nutrition. That's that's something that sort of gets thrown
around a lot. But an easy way to frame this up, like,
given the context of this conversation is there have been
pretty comprehensive studies on the how long dogs can live, right,
and how long the average dog will live, and an

(21:36):
overweight dog is on average going to die two years
younger than it then a dog that's kept in really
good shape. And so when you think about.

Speaker 3 (21:45):
And that's just life, right, that's not like athletic life.
That's not like you know, no injuries, no all that stuff.
And you're right, man, like a lot of dogs are
just overweight, right.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
And that's this is a I mean, this topic comes
up a lot on this podcasts and other ones, and
I know people are sick of hearing it, but the
reality is like, oftentimes we aren't the best judge of
our dog's physical fitness, right, you know, like we're so biased.
The same thing you know you talked about, like your
your dog with the shoulder injury will swim, and it

(22:18):
would swim every single time you asked it to because
that's what they do. But it's up to you to
decide whether that's a good thing to do for that
dog or not. And you have to you have to
step outside the ego a little bit and go, no
matter how much I want that, and no matter how
much he'll do that, that's not the best thing for him.
It's the same thing, you know, like if you if
you take that dog into the vet and it's seven

(22:40):
pounds heavier than it was last year and it's you know,
yearly check up or whatever, your Vet's like, hey, this
this dog could be could drop you know, ten or
twenty percent. That's in the interest of the dog's health. Like,
it's not a reflection on you, like make those changes,
you know, like cut down on the treats, whatever you
have to do, cut down on the daily feed, which

(23:00):
is the easiest way to cut their weight, right, like
manage their intake. But the endgame, the end goal of
that is you know, potentially going to be a couple
extra years of that dog being with you. That's a
huge deal.

Speaker 2 (23:16):
It's a huge deal.

Speaker 3 (23:17):
And this is again why I really love sporting dogs
specific bets, right because let's reality is majority people listen
to this are looking at the dogs as athletes and
as gun dogs, right, Like, even if they're not.

Speaker 2 (23:30):
A lot of this still applies.

Speaker 3 (23:32):
I've said to me, all the still flies, right because
a sporting dog bet is just going to be a
little more you know cruise line, like not having the
dog overweight, because they understand not only the risk of injury,
but feel worse. Right like North or South Dakota opener,
I think for pheasants is this weekend, isn't it? Yep?
I mean like going in there, like the number of dogs,

(23:53):
think of the number of dogs that are overweight, have
been sitting on the couch for the last eight months,
and then they're going to go be asked to run
a marathon. Like it's actually crazy and this is where
to me, not to you know, totally go on a soapbox,
but like to me, you know, we all humanize our
dogs to a point. I think, you know, every one
of us can say we're guilty of that, right, some

(24:14):
more than others, of course, but I think all of
us are guilty of that. But I think what's interesting
is that I've said this a lot. I really think
that people humanize their dogs until it's no longer convenient
to humanizing them. Right, So, like that situation right there,
you would never ask a thirty year old man that
has been sitting not doing a single workout, a single anything,

(24:36):
you know, sitting on the couch, over wage, you know,
and then be like, hey, you're gonna go run a
marathon for four days in a row while we're out
here on this hunt. Like you wouldn't ask that, right,
but you know, of our dog, we would do it.
And you know, and we had a client a few
years ago, uh and she's super nice and we've since
had like this dog it turned out to be really,
really nice. But I remember the first time she came

(24:57):
in with her husband and the dog was overh And
I'm very open about that, I get, I feel, like,
respectfully but very open about because like, for me, if
I'm going to have your dog for three four months
and have the dog in train, the dog has to
be at the mental peak of what it can be
to get the most out of this time. Well, to
be at the mental peak, you have to be at
the physical peak. Like there's no there's no personal animal

(25:20):
that has ever been physically out of shape and mentally
just been like at the epitome right like they do.
They do work hand in hand and so my like
the first thing I told them, I was like, guys, like,
I'm gonna have to cut some weight out this dog.
I mean, it's just it looked like a beer keg
with legs. I mean, it was just it was so
out of shape. And yeah, and you know, she didn't

(25:42):
like it at first, and she's like, she's like, yo,
I want my dogs fat and happy. And I said, man,
with all due respect, those tours and not go hand
in hand.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
They don't.

Speaker 3 (25:49):
They don't belong in the same sentence noge, you know,
because and the same with people right like like you just.

Speaker 2 (25:54):
There's there's a level of especially.

Speaker 3 (25:56):
Being an athlete, that you just have to be at
a mental and physical condition for you to be able
to perform at the highest level. And so you know, again,
I think sporting dog vets do a great job being
critical of Hey, this is where I think your dog
should be versus where it is. And that's why I
really push people, especially anyone that has a sporting dog,

(26:17):
find yourself a sporting dog vet because you know, a
lot of vests just the reality you think about the masses, right,
the masses. If you're listening to this and you are
a gun dog owner, a sporting dog owner that owns
an athlete, you are the minority, you know, between you
look at all the shitsuos and chua wahs and and
you know your name a breed poodle right that is

(26:38):
at home. That is just the family value. I have
nothing against that. I think a part of the family
is where a dog should be. I think it's a
fantastic thing. But the vast majority of dogs out there
are not being looked at as athletes. So the un
average vest is going to see much more of them
than they are of your athlete. And so for me,
like if I have a sports injury, I want to

(27:00):
go to a Dodger or a specialist that deals with
those fourth injuries, right, And so to me, finding the
right bet to have, I a would say have on
your team because I do think it's a big deal.
If there's an issue, I want to call somebody that
I know is going to be familiar with what it
is I'm talking about. It is a big deal. To me,
it's a really big deal.

Speaker 1 (27:19):
I agree one hundred percent. I want to back up
just one second, just to clarify this, because you mentioned
that the Dakota's openers are coming up, but by the
time this episode drops, they will have come and gone.
So if anybody's listened to this in Panicy, that they
hounded too early or anything, you didn't. That's the nature
of recording podcasts, right, You're one hundred percent right. And

(27:40):
one of the things I just want to touch on
two things before we move on there. The overweight dog
thing isn't just your dog could die two years earlier.
You mentioned this or alluded to this. It's a quality
of life issue. So when you think about the impact
on the joints and how that dog can function later
in life if it's you know, ten or twenty per
sent overweight, which is not that much with a lot

(28:02):
of dogs. You're talking five to ten pounds maybe, which
is the easy thing to miss on your own dog, right.
The difference in the joint health and some of the
other things that can happen that can you might not
notice when that dog's four, but could become an issue
at seven versus ten. That that's a huge deal. There's

(28:22):
a lot to it. The other thing that I just
want to touch on quickly here that I one hundred
percent agree with you on this is finding the right vet.
I mean, I've I've interviewed tons of veterinarians for my job.
Most of them lean into this world pretty hard, but
some of them have come from academia, some of them
come from outside. I've dealt with, you know, really good

(28:45):
sporting dog vets with my personal dogs, and I've dealt
with vets from the Twin Cities who are primarily dealing
with those Shitsuos and chihuahuas that you're talking about, and
the difference is huge, And I will never forget my dog.
We have you know, and you know this where you live,
we have really high exposure to ticks up here. You

(29:06):
get the spring thing that you can kind of avoid
to some extent, not I mean, you can't avoid it completely,
but you can sort of mitigate it. But then we
get that fall tick situation where if you're doing that
gross woodcock thing and the and the temperatures are a
little bit higher than normal in the beginning October, middle October,
you can get you know, your dogs can pick up

(29:27):
a ton of ticks. And one of the experiences I
had with one of my past dogs was a vet
who just didn't really consider tick exposure when my dog
had some stuff going on. And my dogs are always treated,
but there's like a there's a level of exposure there
where they're going to pick up something over time, Like
you can't avoid everything all the time with the over

(29:48):
the countertick stuff. And it was a real eye opener
to me because the next vet that we had had
two labs that she trained, she hunted with, and she
trained for a ton of different stuff. She would train
them to go get laundry out of the laundry basket,
like just give them jobs, and she was instantly When
she started explaining that to me, I'm like, this is
my person. Like I can tell because she's using this,

(30:09):
she's thinking about this dog's mental health as well as
its physical health. But how she handled potential tick born
diseases and that kind of thing, she just viewed it
through a different lens, you know. And when you think
about the average house dog's going to pick up some
ticks every year, not like our dogs. Right, like your
dog getting injured doing something out there and wrenching its

(30:32):
shoulder in a weird way, that is a thing that's
going to happen to every sporting dog to some level,
at some point in their life. They're going to have
some kind of injury like that that might never happen
to a house dog. And so there is just a difference.
I want to talk I know that, And you mentioned this.
You're super into waterfall hunting. You travel all over do

(30:53):
this a lot, but you also upland hunt too. You
train your dogs for chad antlers. You're one of the
trainers out there who's looking at dogs like what can
we do with them? Not just how do we train
them for this thing or that thing, which is of
course like a part of the job, but like, where
else can we include them in our lives? Which I

(31:13):
know is sort of the catalyst for a lot of
the shed dog stuff back when that started coming on,
and I know you looked at it that way, it's like, well,
what else can I do with my dog? I'm out
walking with them anyway in the woods, scouting deer in
the winter or whatever. And now this thing comes out
and you're like, Okay, well, now I have four more
months of doing something with my dog where it has
a job and there's a reward and there's a training

(31:34):
aspect to it, and it's just level up the relationship.
How how do you deal with because you understand the
potential of dogs that way, and you can see that
it could keep going, right, Like there's new things that
are going to come out, We're going to do with
our dogs, service dogs, whatever they do. But a lot

(31:55):
of people seem to struggle with like a one pursuit
dog or you know, like I just want an upland dog.
I just want a dog that behaves well. And do
you do you feel like a lot of the people
you deal with and maybe it isn't so much with
your your kennel because you have a lot of sporting
dog people obviously, but it feels like people look at
dogs and sort of box them in and go, if

(32:15):
I could just get here, that would be good enough,
and you're looking at it going they can do this, this,
this and.

Speaker 2 (32:21):
This, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (32:24):
I think the one thing that gets really overlooked is
how talented these dogs are. Especially you get a dog
from a good breeder that is doing it the right
way to better the breed to you produce you know,
even better you know, puppies than what they have, and
you know that dog is going to be incredibly capable.

Speaker 2 (32:44):
The reality is that that dog is also going to
be a product in their environment.

Speaker 3 (32:48):
Right, So if it gets brought into the house that
you don't do anything with it, it's not going to
turn out to be much, right, because that the dog
is going to be a product of the environments you
put them in.

Speaker 2 (32:59):
On the side, like.

Speaker 3 (33:00):
We've had littermates go home and somebody's like, hey, you know,
this dog is going to be a family dog and
to go to the t ball games gonna you know,
basically I just wanted to be obedient, and you know,
it might go to the game farm once or twice
a year if I have time. And so I wanted
to be a hunting dog to that extent, and then
I've had you know, because people's life change all the time, right,

(33:22):
And I have one specific, you know, one in mind
that I'm kind of talking about. And then you know,
that same littermate went to a home that originally that
was the plan, and that the dad just got so
wrapped up and in love with the training process that
that dog went on the field trial and like what
he was so wrapped up. He was run a hunt test,
he's run trials, he's doing all stuff because he just
loved it. Right, So, like you know, what you're saying

(33:43):
is like that dog that the littermate is that did
nothing but go to t ball games and you know,
you know, go to the family reunion and just kind
of be a part, probably had the same potential as
this other dog did.

Speaker 2 (33:54):
Right, But the other dog, the littermate, was in a
different environment.

Speaker 3 (33:57):
And so it's really interesting to me, you know what
you can get out of these dogs?

Speaker 2 (34:01):
And you know, I love the developmental side.

Speaker 3 (34:05):
You know, I think you know that there's are steps
you know to take if you really want.

Speaker 2 (34:10):
Like, so if somebody comes to me.

Speaker 3 (34:11):
And says, Hey, I'm gonna duck hunt and and or
waterfall hunt and open hunt.

Speaker 2 (34:16):
I'm going to do bolt. I'm really big on getting.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
The waterfall side dialed in first, you know, because to me,
from a waterfall side of things, the number one thing
that any waterfall dog needs to do is be steady.
I believe, quite frankly, that's more important than going and
getting and you know, picking up.

Speaker 2 (34:34):
The burden and doing the retreat.

Speaker 3 (34:36):
I get it, Like you know, someone could take a
shot of that comment and say, oh, that's why they're there.

Speaker 2 (34:39):
I get that.

Speaker 3 (34:40):
But if your dog is being put in a dangerous
situation because they're breaking and getting ot in front those
gun barrels while they're going off, you know, to me,
one they're not going to be nearly be as successful.
And two, what's the point if if you're going to
go home without the dog potentially right, because we all
hear the horror stories of the dog getting shot, and
so for me, I want you to be steady. It's

(35:01):
very difficult for that especially young dog that's doing both right.
And generally speaking, if the dog was going to do both,
he's likely going to upland hunt more often the waterfall
hunt because there's more opportunity to write.

Speaker 2 (35:12):
Anybody can go.

Speaker 3 (35:13):
Down to the hunt club or go down to the
game farm on a Sunday afternoon and you know, put
out five six birds and go do it right to
actually go and set up for a waterfall hunt, to
scout and have the spot that set the decos, and
it just takes more. Right. So what we find is
that they're gonna up with hunt probably three to one
if you're doing both well.

Speaker 2 (35:29):
If three times in a.

Speaker 3 (35:30):
Row your young dog is go, go go working in
front of you, you know, up and hunting, and then
all of a sudden you're like, hey, you're supposed to
sit here and be quiet and fill and call them
for you know, the next four hours.

Speaker 2 (35:40):
You know, that young dog's gonna be going what in
the world are you? You know, what are we.

Speaker 3 (35:43):
Doing here right where? What we find is that if
you do the waterfall side first, make him be steady,
make him you know, just you know, defens times in
that waterfall situation, you know, and have him be a
duck dog first, then you can always loosen the reins
and have him go up on hunt, right, But to
have him go up on hunt and then kind of
rain in this fire breathe and draggon that wants to go,
it's much more difficult. And that's where you get the

(36:04):
dog that maybe starts whining. Maybe he's anxious, maybe he's
not want to sit still, maybe because he doesn't understand
what it is that we're doing here versus if you
did that first. So generally speaking, that's that's what I
like to do, is is take that process. And I'm
a very uh progressional guy, like I want I want
to watch the process. I want to develop them the
right way. You know. One thing that I do with

(36:25):
my dog, because I think it is incredibly beneficial, is.

Speaker 2 (36:28):
H I do.

Speaker 3 (36:28):
You know, I'm a sports guy, so I like sports analogies.
I do a thing that I call a red shirt
my young dogs. So from a duck dog standpoint, I
bring them up. You know, now they're they're training right,
so not maybe not fully trained. Like I never want
to hunt personally, I never want to hunt one of
my dogs until they're fully trained, because you start bringing
them on hunts, everything's out uncontrolled, uncontrolled situations, uncontrolled you know, uh,

(36:50):
you know, things come up to where all of a
sudden you can create how bad habit is created. And
if you're not fully trained, it's gonna be much more
difficult for a dogs to be able to handle that situation.
And you're gonna these unnecessary hurdles in front of you.
So instead, what I'll do is I'll bring that young
dog out again, waterfall situation. I'll bring that young dog
out with one of my seasoned dogs, and I'll just
make them sit there and watch. And what this is

(37:11):
doing is a couple of things. One, it's allowing them
to get out and still experience this stuff even though
they're not fully trained yet, even though I don't want
them out there to potentially creating a bad habit.

Speaker 2 (37:21):
They're learning to sit and be desensitized.

Speaker 3 (37:23):
All the things that we can train for, right, we
can train for, you know, thirty millers dipping around around
and around around on top of us. We can't train for, Hey,
let these four honkers land because there's foury coming behind them.
They're going to sit down ten feet in front of it.
You know this with this dog. So what happens is
that that young dog goes out first, right, and they
start going that first time. They have no idea what's

(37:44):
going on, and then all of a sudden, there's the
excitement in the blind. Then there's quackroa quack on the call.
Then there's somebody said get them and boom bom boom
boom boom, and then I got sent. Well that young
dogs starts coming backwards really quickly, right, so they start going, well,
last time there's boom boom boom, I got to go.
Or last time that I heard calling, something was gonna happen.
So now I'm gonna get anxious. Now I'm going to
get worked up. Or if they have a season of

(38:05):
sitting there being desensitized all that, that year two when
you actually go for you know, call it your year
one hunt, that dog is rock steady solid or rock steady,
rock solid steady, rather they beat that they've been desensitized
of the whole thing. They're not going to be like
that dog that's ripping down. You're wanting to break, wanting
to be on top of them. And I just think
like that on the on the you know called on

(38:25):
the job training, right, like we're training, we're just doing
it in a honey environment now. And you know, for
me again, I just the safety side of it is
so crucially important like my dogs. You have to be steady,
you have to be and so I love that red
stist side of it. And then they sister and honors,
you know, the older dog, and I love that and
uh and I do think that it helps them reach

(38:49):
you know, their quote unquote prime faster because then year
two you don't have bad habits you're trying to reel
back and try to fix later on, you don't have
this issue like you know, for me, it's amazing what
these dogs pick up in the field and what they
hold onto. Okay, so Ethan was my first dog. I
had no idea what I was doing with him. You know,
we had two dogs growing up as families, so I

(39:11):
don't come from a dog a family. We had two
labs growing up. The most impressive thing either one of
them did was catch potato chips out of the air.
Like they were not athletes, thore, not hunting dogs. It's
just not what they were. And so you know, when
I got my first dog in Easton, and I poured
myself into training and prove myself trying to learn, but
I didn't know what was going on. Right, So like
that first year when I took Ethan out waterfall hunting.

(39:34):
I was. I was kind of a lot with I
had two buddies in particular, that we'd hunt all over
the place. We'd field goose hunt like crazy, We'd duck
hunt every chance we got. And yeah, he broke, and honestly,
I didn't know he wasn't supposed to and he picked
up you know, I was just happy he was picking
up birds, right, And so he did over and over
and over and over and over again. Well after that

(39:55):
first year, I got hooked up with the local retriever club.
Learned these dogs aren't supposed to break. Learn, they're supposed
to stay. Learn all this stuff right like at the time,
I think I'm sixteen years old, And so I worked
my tail off and making sure that Easton was steady.
That dog ended up being a master hunter, hunter, resuever champion,
had all these accolades, did all these things. But every

(40:16):
single year he lived at thirteen and a half, every
single year that I took him up that first hunt,
he wanted to break. He knew he wasn't supposed to.
Write all the training, all the accolades, all the ribbons
show that he doesn't do it. But I'm telling you
that first year of breaking all the time, every single year,
every first hunt, I had to be on him because
he was going to break every single one. And so

(40:37):
it's just it's amazing the situational side of things, you know,
because I know some people be like, well birds make
a bird dog. I wanted to have those experiences. Then
I'll just fix you know, the bad half is to
come up. And I'm telling you, man, it is not
that you does.

Speaker 1 (40:52):
You make a really good point there around steadiness, because
anybody who knows anything about waterfall dogs knows that that
is like the lynchpin that holds the whole thing together.
It just is like, but if you're not a hardcore
duck hunter, you can look at steadiness and be like, well,
it's not that important dove hunting. It's pretty important around
the house if you don't want a dog, if you

(41:13):
want an obedient dog when you take your kids to
the soccer field or whatever. Steadiness is an unnatural thing
for them because they are not naturally steady, which is
why it's so hard to train and get a stick.
But it is something that is like the It is
like a cornerstone of well behaved dogs in the blind
and out of the blind and it's just an it's

(41:34):
an unnatural thing to ask. So like what you said
there about you know, people are like, well, I want
I want my dog to retrieve, Like, yeah, everybody does, right,
but your dog already wants to do that most likely.
Like that is that is a very natural inclination for them.
So that's partially fun, Like that's fun to do, it's
fun to train. It's fun to see that develop. But

(41:54):
that's generally a hell of a lot easier than getting
them to sit there and watch ducks hit the water
or aper land and them wait, you know, ten twenty
thirty forty seconds as you work them down this path
and I know you do this. There are a lot
of ways to work in steadiness, almost from the moment
you get that eight week old puppy home, you know,

(42:16):
making them wait for two seconds to go eat before
you let them go eat or whatever like, there are
little things to build that in to get them to
understand that that is a thing that will be asked
of them, not just in the duck blind ten times
a year, but throughout the entire year, in a variety
of different ways. And it is you know, if you
don't duck hunt and you're listening to this the other
side of this with upland hunting that you know, Josh,

(42:38):
you deal with this constantly, I'm sure is the thing
that exists in upland that's just like steadiness or probably
a really close parallel. It's recall, right, like I can
get my dog to come back in the yard sometimes,
but then you get out into the field and it's
super exciting and that dog chases a hen, you know,
pheazan or something, and you can't get that dog back

(43:00):
because it's an unnatural thing. Like it's another thing that yeah,
like you could hunt your whole life with a dog.
If you can't call it back, you could maybe get
away with it. It wouldn't be much fun, it wouldn't be
very safe, like you'd swear a lot. But that thing,
that skill is an unnatural thing that they need to
know to be good. And it's just it's easy to

(43:22):
lean into the fun stuff that they take to naturally,
but you know, you can't just live.

Speaker 2 (43:27):
Off of that.

Speaker 3 (43:30):
Now you're spot on telling you know, one of the
things that I actually I'll have very respectful debates with
people that want to have the other side of it,
of that I don't want my dog to be steady,
right because in a waterfall situation, you know we're talking here,
there is no reason and like I've not heard one
yet that justifies the dog not being steady because safety

(43:52):
should be the first and foremost on all of our minds, right,
and that is going to keep your dog safe. The
reality is is that if you're the dog handler, you're
thinking about the dog.

Speaker 2 (44:02):
Nobody else is.

Speaker 3 (44:03):
Everybody else came to pull the trigger, so everybody else
is thinking up pulling the trigger.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
Now.

Speaker 3 (44:06):
You may be in a certain situation, a certain blind
that you feel more safe with it because maybe you're
you're elevated or you're up or whatever. But like ground blinds,
you know, pits, layouts, I mean all these things, Like
you are at the dog's level. There is not a
more dangerous place on that planet for that dog to
be than out in front of the barrels that they're
going off. And every single year I hear about a

(44:27):
horror story and could you imagine watching your dog go
and get ripped apart by your buddy pulling the trigger?
I mean, like it's a nightmare situation, Like you don't
want to think about it, right, but let's just take
that off the table. Okay, safe, do the off the table. Okay,
Why would I want my dog to be safe? Your
dog is going to be a more efficient retriever being sety, right,

(44:47):
because if it's sitting there and you knock down four birds,
your dog can officially mark all four of those birds,
can go one, two, three, four, boom, and then can
go get one, come back, know where the next one is, reset,
go come back because it's round he is. If your
dog's not steady, you're probably not running blind. You probably
don't have the level of control to whistle, sit, have
him turn and look at you and give him a

(45:08):
cast of direction. So if your dog is breaking and
you know, picking up that first bird as it's hitting
the water, he's not even seeing birds two, three, four
go down, doesn't even know they're out there, right, So
from an efficiency standpoint, you're a more efficient retriever being steady.
But the safety, to me, that that is like the
epitome of it.

Speaker 2 (45:28):
If I mean, I.

Speaker 3 (45:29):
Look at my family, right, so like you know, my
dogs strike is my daughter's absolute pride and joy, like
she she does everything with that dog, loves that dog.

Speaker 2 (45:38):
If that dog.

Speaker 3 (45:38):
Doesn't come home on a hot I'd have no idea
what to tell her, right, Like I would rather him
not pick up a single bird and come home safe
and sound of that little girl than I would with
him picking everything up. But you know he's breaking and
he gets you get shot. You know, there's just no
no reason for it, and you're right, like, I think
that's a great point to him, Like it's unnatural, like

(45:59):
so much to like, like Oppenheim, you can as long
as you got a good burning gun introduction, you're done
to where you have a dog that's bird crazy and
it's good with the guns. You can kind of let
an uplin in that again with limited expectations, right, you
can let an upline you know, retriever kind of go
and figure it out and learn because everything's natural. Right,
he's using his nose, he's tracking trailing, he's watching it,

(46:22):
you know, flush, he's going to pick it up, and
he's he's to go down. Right, So like you can
get away with more of it there, waterfowl, you have
to be under control, Like obedience is utmost important. I
would argue obedience is upmost important on the up and
side too, because that can get out of control in
a hurry, and again I think safety's first and foremost,
Like I don't want that that dog chasing that hen

(46:43):
that we can't shoot, you know, towards that road where
there's an F two fifty ripping down there at seven
miles an hour right and doesn't see the dog. Like
there are just too many things that can come up.
Safety should be first and foremost. And I think everybody
wants to skip around the obedience because it's not fun,
it's not sexy, it's not cool.

Speaker 2 (46:58):
I can't get it. Could do a video and put
it on.

Speaker 3 (47:01):
I think social media is about the worst thing that
that happened for, you know, for dog, you know, training
and dog relationships deal with us and our dog, because
everyone wants to show like, oh this is cool and
fun stuff. I cannot tell you how many people when
they call me like, oh, my dogs.

Speaker 2 (47:14):
You know, when my dog, you'll get past fifty yards,
he doesn't want to whistle to it. How do I
fix that?

Speaker 3 (47:18):
I'm like obediing, like no, no, no, he does obedience good.
I'm like no, like that's obedient. Like almost any issue
you're having can be traced back to an obedient issue
and but everybody wants to do like some treat training
to do some quick on lead move on and think,
hey I'm past that, and it's like no obedience every
day entire life, you type in activity. People just have

(47:39):
to embrace it.

Speaker 1 (47:40):
Yeah, I mean you just have to understand it. I
want to clarify quick because when you when you talk
about steadiness in the in the duck blind or the
boat being a safety thing. Here here's what happens. You
go out there, you have your dog that that's going
to break, right, and somebody knocks down a mallard and
it hits the water, and that that shooter or somebody

(48:01):
else in the blind decides they're gonna they're gonna dispatch
that cripple on the water, right, So your guns aren't
pointed straight up. Their guns are pointed level and that
dog breaks and jumps out of that boat to get
over the side of the boat, jump out of the blind.
That's when they get shot. And you may have not
have heard that in your life. If you're listening to this,
I've heard it plenty. Josh has heard it plenty. It happens,

(48:26):
and you know, I mean, it's it's not like a
high likelihood thing, but it gets a hell of a
lot more likely if that dog's going to break and
if you're hunting with you know, more people or people
you don't know very well, like the rule, they're not
going to follow the rules on what happens when a
cripple gets knocked down. Whatever. Like those things are real.
The recall thing with the safety is pretty easy to
understand for people. But both of those things, like Josh said,

(48:49):
are should be first and foremost, you know, I mean,
there is a nice side benefit to those dogs being
a hell of a lot more pleasant to hunt with,
for sure, but also, like you said, they're going to
come home with you when you when you talk about
red shirting a pup and bringing it in there to
the blind and running an older dog that knows the

(49:10):
stuff and just making that younger dog sit back and
watch and learn to sort of you know, you're you're
conditioning it sort of to tune out distraction, which is great.
And also just to understand like this is not my call,
you know, like I I have to wait for my
release command. I have to wait for the okay to
go do this. When you do that, I'm assuming that

(49:30):
you probably have somebody else running the gun and you're
sitting there just running the dog.

Speaker 2 (49:34):
Right.

Speaker 3 (49:36):
Yeah, I'm I'm entirely focused on the dog, like this
is about that dog and that experience.

Speaker 2 (49:42):
I'll tell you one of the.

Speaker 3 (49:43):
Other things that it curbs is I would say the
number one thing, especially in season, that I get asked
about if people, how do I fix this? It's whiny.
Your dog's vocal in the blind. It's just sort of
you know, just it sounds like che box. You're sitting
there at the end of the blind with you right,
like it's it's not a fun thing. It's not a

(50:03):
pleasant thing. If I could come up with some sort
of a system to fix that with one hundred percent
of dogs, that'd be the risky dog trainer that that
ever ever was.

Speaker 2 (50:12):
You know, just one of those things.

Speaker 3 (50:13):
But but you know, to me, there's two things.

Speaker 2 (50:17):
One, I really do believe it's free.

Speaker 3 (50:19):
I think know your dogs produce noisy dogs, if think
there's certain lines to just your producer. And for me,
as I'm going through and infelecting my stud dogs, I've
had to break my own heart numerous times because this
dog is the real deal. But he was vocal or
he made a noise or he's making noises, because I
really do believe knows your dogs produce no dogs. Now,
whether it's a noise dog or a quiet dog, you

(50:40):
can mishandle that dog and make them either either nosier
or noisy. If you had a naturally quiet dog, make
them noisy. And I think the number one way to
do that is to bring them out on a hunt
like that and have it be go go, go, go go. Right,
So like, especially if you're on a quick hunt. Right, so,
like the first hunt for that dog, most of us
wanted to be a slam dog, right, most of us
on to be, Hey, we've got this slammer field. He's

(51:02):
gonna get bunch tree trees. This gonna be great for him.
He's gonna pick up a lot of feathers, a lot
of opportunities. And I think there's a lot of validity
around that thought. But it was that first dog time
or that first time in the blind for that dog.

Speaker 2 (51:13):
He's gonna be sitting there going, oh my gosh, this
is why you get to do next.

Speaker 3 (51:16):
When you get the next it's like you know, a
lot of times, like when you bring a puppy home,
you know, I always say, like, if you bring an
eight week go puppy home and you start throwing that
puppy t retree, you this retriever, you're just doing that
to validate to yourself, to you you bought a retriever, Like,
you're not teaching the dog anything.

Speaker 2 (51:31):
You don't.

Speaker 3 (51:31):
That's one thing that I think is kind of interesting
when people are like, oh, I taught it to retreat, Well,
he didn't teach a to retreat, like grand mom and
dad and Grandpa and Grahama and genetics taught that dog retreat.
You didn't teach it to retreat. But in this situation here,
like if you ramp that up and it's just retreat,
retreat for retreat, retreat, retreat for that dog as a puppy,
you're gonna create some bad habits with that, right, Just

(51:52):
like on this hunt, if it's go go, go, go,
go go, Now, all of a sudden, that dog is
jacked up as out of tonaos, right, so the hunt
flows down. What happens that dog is still jacked up
and anty if I give him a whole season of
him going to that blind fitting and watching everything and
not letting him think that I'm going to get to
go go get this thing after these guns go off,

(52:12):
then I just I just bring.

Speaker 2 (52:14):
That right back and I chill that out.

Speaker 3 (52:16):
Now, I do believe, I do understand, like cause I
know there's people that are listening to this being like
there's no way I'm bringing my dog out for a
whole season and not not letting go get a retreat, right,
I do understand. I'm in a unique position, right, So
like I own you know, eight to ten dogs all
the time, so I always have an older dog to
you know, to satisfy, y know, my want of want

(52:37):
my dogs.

Speaker 2 (52:37):
He'll pick up retreats.

Speaker 3 (52:38):
So it is easier for me to have you know,
have you know, my varsity player and have my JV
player there.

Speaker 2 (52:43):
My JV player.

Speaker 3 (52:44):
Doesn't go, he doesn't get to play, but he gets
to sit there and understand what the game's all about.

Speaker 2 (52:48):
And that's easier for me.

Speaker 3 (52:49):
But I have had so many clients, like I cannot
tell you how many people have said I did that
and it was the absolute you know this my fourth
dog or pift dog there, it was the absolute best
thing I ever did for any of my dog is
go through that one teasing because you just back it
off right, So then all of a sudden, you're two
like that dog is so conditioned to everything that you
can't train for. He's prepared like it's it's like, you know,

(53:11):
how often do we talk about an NFL quarterback that
gets drafted number one or number two and the guy
all was talent, but to get thrown into the fire,
you know, with you know, uh, you know, little experience,
the wrong team, all this stuff, and the guy failed, right,
Versus you talk about the guy that you know, sat
behind Aaron Rodgers for you know, for four years and
was prepared when he went and hit the field, right,

(53:33):
That guy's set up for success, right, He's with the
right team, He's had the right preparation. Like, but then again,
we don't think of our dogs that way, you know,
and so we just how do we set them up
for success? That has to be you know, the goal
for any specificate young dog, for any dog going into
the field.

Speaker 1 (53:47):
Man, I will never forget and talking to docin about
that where he told me and I did this with
Luna when she was young because I didn't have an
older dog like you're talking about. He is like, find
somebody to be your shooter, go scout out those what
ducks you like, and don't bring a gun. Work work
that dog, pay attention to it, like hold that dog accountable,

(54:10):
and work it through these things, and do not be
the shooter. Be focused entirely on the dog. And you know,
I probably didn't do it as much as I should,
but I did it a lot more than I would
have ever considered. And it was like a totally different
world for me, you know, and I feel that, I mean,
this is maybe a weird parallel, but now you know,
my daughters are hunting deer like crazy, and I'm not

(54:31):
carrying a weapon very much anymore, not like I did
for years and years and years. Right, the entire like
vibe of that hunt change is so much where I
feel like so much more confident about just making the
right choices and just just following the process through in
the right way. And I see it when I take

(54:51):
my daughters out. I see it when I take young
dogs out where it's like, as soon as you kind
of set that aside and go, you're not going to
be the one who gets the grip and grin to
throw up on Instagram. Now you're just here for this dog.
You are you are putting in something that's really kind
of a short term thing when you when you consider
the overall life of a dog, but the value is incredible.

Speaker 2 (55:15):
And you have so much more satisfaction having done that.

Speaker 3 (55:18):
Right when when you go through a year of like
guns away, I'm focused on the dog. We're on the fly,
on you know, on the job training here, right, so
we're like we're working. I'm seeing this through a different lens, right,
so I'm looking through the dog's eyes. And then all
of a sudden you fast forward to the next year
and you go, gosh, like, look at well they're done.
There's gonna be so much pride and satisfaction that you
have because you had the sacrifice and going through it.

(55:39):
And and I think, I think that that is so
valuable for so many of us of you know, going
through that process.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
Right.

Speaker 3 (55:46):
So like for me, I know, I went through like
that early phase of I had to kill as many
ducks as I possibly could. You know why, I don't know,
Like I would just you know, young, and I felt
like you were pulling the trigger met you were successful,
and you know, and then I graduated through I think
a little different than a lot of people do because
my you know, the dog side of things. But like
I went immediately into the dogs, I'm like, I really
don't care about pulling the trigger. I just want to

(56:07):
be here for the dogs. And now I'm here with
my kids. And and that's a whole other evolution of
looking at at things through their eyes and it but
it but it does make you appreciate that process, right,
because if you're there pulling the trigger, you don't see
all the things that are going on between those years.
Like there's a lot of thoughts and a lot of emotion,
a lot of like, oh my gosh moments, And if

(56:29):
you're watching that, I think it's just it's a really
easy thing, you know, to love and and and then
to just understanding that process. And I think when you
see it, when you're when you're not pulling the trigger
and you're watching it, right, don't like, yeah, he's not
ready to get sent yet, but like his his mind
is getting blown right now, and uh, and it is.

Speaker 2 (56:48):
It's really a fun thing to watch.

Speaker 1 (56:50):
So speaking of what's going on between their ears, I've
always heard that, you know, people people have problems with
vocal dogs, right, Like you said, if you figured out
the match formula to get dogs to stop whining and barking,
you'd be a billionaire and you would be one hundred percent.
It's a very hard thing to cure once it's once
it's there, And I've had different trainers tell me that

(57:12):
they think it's because the dogs don't know they're doing it,
so correcting them on it is sort of like a
lightning bolt coming out of the sky that they don't
connect with a behavior that they're doing. You know, that
dog breaks, or that dog doesn't come back right away,
or you know something you know drops that bumper at
your feet instead of delivering it to hand. There's an

(57:32):
action there that when you correct that dog can make
that connection. But do you think that they they like
truly don't really know they're doing it. It's sort of
an involuntary thing that they just kind of like don't
connect as like a intention.

Speaker 2 (57:49):
Maybe, yeah, I think in a lot of cases.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
Yet I do think there are cases that the dog
is just maybe being a little agreetous with it. Maybe
it will do like that wide open mouth like you know,
something like that. Then I'm gonna crect it because you
know you're doing it then.

Speaker 2 (58:06):
But if it's a.

Speaker 3 (58:09):
What I've seen is that it frustrates people. Right, So
what happens when you get frustrated, you're either gonna reach
over and make a correction. You're gonna hit you know,
hit the e co or make it correction. But the
dog can't correct something that he doesn't understand is wrong. Right,
And so if it's coming out of you know, from
an anxiousness standpoint, if it's coming out because of that,

(58:30):
you're just gonna make that dog more anxious by correcting
them on something that they don't understand why they're being corrected.
And uh, and so you actually make it worse, right,
So you can you can just build up this anxiety. Now,
the one that that Doug get me is uh. And
I think if we're being honest with ourselves, we say
this because we all love our dogs. We adore our dogs,
we love that they want to be their love. But

(58:52):
when that happens more times than a hour I'm talking
to people, what they'll say is like, he's just he's
just so driven, or he just loves you want to
go so bad and he just so that that's Rosecard glasses, right,
that that you're looking at things trying to Because for me,
I can show you a quiet dog that doesn't make
a noise, that wants to go just as bad, right,
and he's when you say his name, he's gonna go.

Speaker 2 (59:13):
Just as hard. And you know, so it is a
it is a bad habit.

Speaker 3 (59:17):
Now again, I do think the reason I talk about
genetics and why, like I really do believe that's where
it starts. And I think I think you know your
dog's produce, knows your dog. The reason they even talk
about that is because I do want people to understand,
like it may not be you, like, it may be
that this is just who this dog is. And you
can rip your hair out trying to figure it out,
and you're ever gonna get there, right, and so sometimes

(59:39):
you just have to.

Speaker 2 (59:39):
Accept that this is who this dog is.

Speaker 3 (59:42):
But I really do believe that starting the dog out
the right way and developing them, you know, in that
progressional way, instead of just throwing them the wolves and
go go go, go go unlet's pump this up, because
I mean, you pump a dog up, there's only one
way that they're going it's up, right, So you have
to be able to just manage that. And it's just
you know, it's exciting, right, Like I had a client

(01:00:03):
literally pick up a dog today and I won't use
the name because he's in the industry and the waterfall
industry in particular. And he looked at me and he goes,
man like, I got these hunts lined up and the Dakotas,
and do you think that I.

Speaker 2 (01:00:14):
Could just take the puppy?

Speaker 3 (01:00:15):
You know, this is an eight week old puppy, right,
you think I just take the puppy with in the body?

Speaker 2 (01:00:19):
Like is that a bad idea? And I looked at him.

Speaker 3 (01:00:21):
I was like, that is a terrible Like yeah, like,
do not do that, you know. And he's like, well
you kind of walk me through why. I was like, okay,
risk reward is the risk worth the reward? So in
this case, the reward is you say, oh, like the
noise didn't seem to bother, right, That's that's the reward,
right because there's nothing more that's coming out of that.

(01:00:42):
The risk is we have gun shyness, we have you know,
noise sensitivity, We have a doll that is just completely
becoming a shell of herself because she has no idea
what's going on. Like, it is not worth that risk.
And I think we just we all just get so
wrapped up into the excitement of having that new young
dog around, which it is awesome, you know. I mean
I get to see it every day like it is.

(01:01:04):
It is fantastic, and I love that people get so
excited about it. But I'm always I'm a I'm a
long term person. I want to I want to play
the long game. Now, I do understand so much of
our society is the exact opposite, right, Like we can
get Dane Hear anything that we want in the world
and a click in two day shipping. Right So, Like,
but dogs are not bad. They are never gonna be.

(01:01:26):
It's not how it's gonna work. And the more time
you put into them, the more you're gonna get out
of them. Right, So, like it's a process you have
to grow. And again this is where I go back to.
You know, we all humanize our dogs until it's not
gonna to humanize them anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
Right.

Speaker 3 (01:01:38):
So, if we took first grader and he was hitting
off a baseball off a tee and then you're like,
all right, man, like you're gonna go you go a
bat a Yankee stadium tomorrow, Like you know, we all
laugh and be like, yeah, that's ridiculous. But how is
that any difference than you taking a six month old
dog that just saw a burden gun for the first time,
and you're like, all right, man, now we're gonna go

(01:02:00):
on a mega pheasant in South Dakota.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
We're going to go on a big duck hunt to Saskatchewan.
We've got like, that's what that is, right.

Speaker 3 (01:02:06):
And so building them up and preparing them for that,
that's how you make them successful. It just it takes time.
And that's the one thing that I do think is
hard on people, just like spending the time to build
them up and prepare them right way.

Speaker 1 (01:02:19):
Dude, I look at that stuff like, you know, over
on the white tail side of things, the amount of
youngish people I talk to, like getting into bow hunting
who are obsessed with one fifties and one seventies who've
only killed three deer in their life and will go
out and get major buck fever and screw up over
and over and over, and a lot of them will

(01:02:39):
give it up because it's too hard, because they haven't
worked through the process of becoming a good deer hunter
first before becoming a trophy hunter. It's just like that,
like there's just no way around it, Like you can't
shortcut this stuff. And you see this a lot, you know.
I the topic that I get my ass and the
sling over in the dog world all the time is

(01:03:00):
e callers because people will be you know how it
is like everybody who bumps into a training problem with
a sporting dog immediately wants to go buy an e caller.
And you're like, that is a that is a great
tool if you use it correctly, and you know how
to use it, and you implement it at the right
time and all of the qualifiers to make sure it
sounds correct. But I'm always like, you probably don't know

(01:03:23):
what you're doing yet, Like you probably don't know how
to train this dog in a way yet where you're
going to jump to that because you think that's going
to fix the problem, But the problem wouldn't be here
if you were doing it right like that. That's a
reinforcement tool later, you know, in a long distance communication
tool and a very valuable thing. But jumping to it,
which is like super common, all that is is a

(01:03:44):
reflection on something going wrong on your end so far,
and it's really tough for people to understand that. But
that that kind of thing. I mean, I don't know
if we're getting here in society and I'm getting way
off course, But like like you said, you know, we
have it pretty We can have whatever we want brought
to our house. Pretty freaking easy. We can have we

(01:04:06):
can walk into the average quick trip or grocery store
and there's so many calories in there that we can
just pick up and we don't have to work for. Really,
you know, life is fairly easy. But you see these
trends with like fitness and some other stuff now where
people seem to sort of be recognizing this side of
life like that you're talking about with these dogs, where

(01:04:26):
it's like, yeah, there is no way around this other
than just putting in tons and tons of time. And
it's and it's not actually even that. It's just a
commitment to day after day after day, and it doesn't
have to be a ton of time, but it has
to be a consistent thing, just like working out or
anything else where it's like it might only be a
half hour a day, or with a puppy it only

(01:04:47):
five minutes of lesson, two minutes a lesson, whatever, but
those lessons happen to have they have to happen every day.
That's a hard thing to do.

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3 (01:04:57):
Well, and then too, you know when you look at
like the when I say, I look at the long game,
like to me, rushing into that first season when a
dog isn't prepared, like, I don't care about that first season. Yeah,
I want heres three, four, five, six, seven, eight to
be great, right, And if stuff goes terribly wrong that
first year because you're not prepared, you're not going to

(01:05:19):
have those years and you're not gonna at least not
to the level of what you could have. And you know,
so that's why I'm just I'm so big on like
a let's pump the brakes and if you need to
get a dog in kind of a staggered form, right,
so if like, hey, you know, my dog's seven, I
want to get a dog now so that I have
the time and I'm not rushed and not tempted. You
have to get the dog in the field too early,

(01:05:42):
that's great, you know, whatever you have to do to
you know, for you to be able to approach this
the way that it should be approached. But I I'm
just I'm really really big on taking your time like
I would much rather see a dog going into the
field later than earlier, because I know that dog is
likely going to be more prepared. But you still have
to put in the work. Like, like you said, Tony,
like if you're not putting the work, you know it's

(01:06:03):
The gym example is a great example, right, because like, yeah,
an hour a day, you're not gonna you.

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
Know, decide to go to the gym today.

Speaker 3 (01:06:11):
Go to the gym for an hour, come back, take
your shirt off, look in the mirror, and be like, oh,
like that changed my life. Right, But if you do
that consistently, it compounds on itself and.

Speaker 2 (01:06:20):
You will have that moment.

Speaker 3 (01:06:21):
You may not know when or where, but if you
stay the course and are consistent, you will have that moment.
Same thing with the dogs, right, One session isn't going
to cure it. One tool like a collar is. It's
not a magic wand that comes in a box, right, Like,
it's not going to cure your problem. But if you
stay the course and are consistent, you will have that moment.
I promise you'll have that moment that you are so

(01:06:42):
full of pride and so full of joy because hey,
I did that, you know, Like obviously with the dog,
the team. But like I did that right, Like that
dog could have been laying on the couch eating potato
ships like instead, like we put in the time, put
in the work, and we made this happen. Like there's
to me, that's where the satisfaction comes. I love getting

(01:07:04):
texts or emails, you know, from our calls, you know,
from clients that have gone through that process. And man,
I've had I've had grown men, you know, sixty plus
year old men crying as they're telling me a story
because they're so full of pride and joy because hey,
this was a you know, eighteen months or two year
process to get to this point and like we're here

(01:07:25):
and you know, because you do pour yourself into this
and uh, and it it's rewarding, man, I mean there's
there are very few things like it.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
Yeah, it is, and it's uh, you know on the
just just a little point you made earlier about the
consistency of training, giving it something every day, maybe a
couple of times every day, versus the deciding you know,
maybe on a Saturday, you're going to go try to
work that dog for three hours and then the wheels
are going to fall off. After twenty minutes. It's it's

(01:07:53):
the same kind of thing like you said about you know,
you put a lot of pressure on yourself if you
if you get this hunting dog, you like, I want
this first season. I want to go to South Dakota
and I want to get my limited roosters every day,
and I'm going to get that dog a billion bird
contacts and it's going to be amazing. A better bet
is to figure out a way to hunt some woodcock
close to home, on some public land when they migrate

(01:08:14):
through and get that dog out for an hour here,
an hour there, get it, get those reps in, get
those small bird contacts in, and work up to that
stuff instead of, like you said, all of a sudden,
this great big production hunt where it's like too much,
too fast for this young dog and it's just not
ready yet. There's just a slow burned progression to this stuff.

(01:08:34):
But like you said and you keep saying, is if
you go through it right, you will never not do that.
Like once you see what that becomes for a dog,
you will never not appreciate that process and try to
make that happen because it's always worth it.

Speaker 3 (01:08:49):
Yeah, and so much this comes down to owner expectations, right,
And we talked about a lot when we send dogs home,
Like dog goes through training and it goes home. Is
obe on and off lead? Is you know steady, is marking?
Is you're delivering a hand to do all these things,
and you know, naturally, you know they want to pick
the dog up and go right down on a hunt. Well,

(01:09:11):
you know this is different, right, Like we're not in
a controlled environment anymore.

Speaker 2 (01:09:16):
Like there's gonna be so much learning that the dog
gas to do.

Speaker 3 (01:09:19):
There's so many new things you're gonna throw, right, you know,
we're not taking your boat rides at you know, four
to three in the morning while we're going out training, right,
we're not. You know, there's so many factors that go
into it that we're not doing on a train, so
the dog has to experience it. And again you know
the analogiiz I know, keep going back to sports, but
you know, like if you if you're in the batting

(01:09:39):
cage and you're hitting, whether it's off off a machine
or off your coach, you're throwing your VP and you're
hitting really well, when you step into that box at
the game, you don't have that level of control anymore, right,
now the picture is trying to get you out, right,
It's more of a game. It's more than just being
in there. And so like for us, you can have
a dog prey dial in in the in you know,

(01:10:01):
at home and hitting off off the tee, hitting off
the bat machine. But all of a sudden, like you're
going again, and all of a sudden, there's more variables.
There's the crowd, noise, the elements, the weather, you know
what the other team is doing, what the other picture
is going to do to get you out, Like, there's
more to it. Like you can't just go from in
the bandicate and be like, all right, man, you're doing great,
like you should be able to hit home runs every
time you're up.

Speaker 2 (01:10:20):
It's not like that.

Speaker 3 (01:10:21):
And so anytime you're gonna throw variables into the equation,
you know there's going to be a learning curve that
has to be made to go be successful with you
solving that problem. And so for us it's all about again,
how do we make the doll be successful. It might be, uh,
you know the hide that you're in making sure that
the dog can see. It may be you know the

(01:10:42):
the guns right, Like I'm not bringing a young dog
out on one of their first hunts with eight guns
in the blind, right, I'm having hopefully one or two.

Speaker 2 (01:10:50):
Let's make this thing easy, let's make it successful, you know.
But a lot of that again comes down to us.

Speaker 3 (01:10:56):
The one, the one that I think is always funny
is from an upland standpoint. Right, So I think so
much many of us that have an older dog, like
I'm gonna bring, you know, the young poppout with the
older dog because you know the old dog will teach
the dog.

Speaker 2 (01:11:10):
You know that you know the young dog what to do. No,
they don't.

Speaker 3 (01:11:14):
I mean they don't, now now I do.

Speaker 2 (01:11:17):
I will agree with.

Speaker 3 (01:11:18):
That that young dog will likely follow the old dog
and kind of start to, like at least get somewhat
of an idea of like what the old dog is doing.
But the reality is that the old dog is going
to get the bird contacts you're hoping the young dog
gets because the old dog knows what he's doing. The
old dog is probably going to get to the retrieve
because the old dog knows what he's doing. All the
things you're hoping that young dog experiences, the old dog
is going to be the one experience and the young
dogs just run run around behind and figuring it out.

Speaker 2 (01:11:41):
You know. To me, I'd rather break that up. And
that's why I love.

Speaker 3 (01:11:43):
Like, if you're in a two dog setup, you're like, well,
when do I get the next dog? I love when again,
you know, gouy wine, everything happens and you don't lose
the dog earlier. Right, But like at at seven, eight
nine years old, you know that dog, that older dog
is probably starting to slow down a little bit, Like
we're not doing like the big long days anymore, right,
So it makes it a little easier for a guy
to go, Okay, half the day I'm going to dedicate

(01:12:04):
to my old dog, and half the day I'm going
to dedicate to my young dog and give him the experience,
you know, and and kind of work your work way
up into it. So then when my old dog is
you know, eleven, now, all of a sudden, my young
dog is, you know, three or two, and now he's
like he's ready to go do this right, and they
and they both kind of ease in and out of it.
That's an ideal world. But I just you know, the

(01:12:25):
the old dog doesn't like, go, hey, hey, sport, let
me take you in under my wing and teach everything
I know, like, this is just not help.

Speaker 1 (01:12:31):
Work, if I mean, A good way to look at
that is to think that it's hard enough for us
to be good trainers. You're your old dogs. Yeah, doesn't
want the job, isn't going to take it, doesn't want
to do it. Josh uh right, we're on a time here.
I got to pack up, take my daughter's on a
little hunt here very very soon. I want to thank

(01:12:51):
you so much for coming on. I want to get
you back at some point, maybe get your bride on
there too, to talk about puppies and bloodlines, because we
dipped into that a little bit, but there's a lot
we cover there. Why don't you let everybody know where
they can find your kennel, where they can find all
your social all that good stuff.

Speaker 2 (01:13:07):
Yeah, so if you just look up Riverstone Kennels.

Speaker 3 (01:13:09):
So we're on Facebook, Instagram, you know, Riverstone Kennels dot com.
You can find our website there. You can also find
the line of the kennel. I'm happy to talk to
anybody that wants to talk about you have training or
looking for a puppy, anything like that.

Speaker 2 (01:13:22):
Yeah, we didn't even get into your kind of you know,
genetics and breeding all.

Speaker 3 (01:13:26):
This stuff, which is obviously a huge part of this
whole thing, like you got to have the right you know,
the right player to coach in the first place.

Speaker 2 (01:13:32):
But yeah, I just I love this. I love talking dogs.
I love this is literally.

Speaker 3 (01:13:38):
My life, and so you know, love to hear from
anybody that wants to reach out and talk about Dowson.

Speaker 2 (01:13:42):
Thanks buddy, all right, take care of having good hunt.

Speaker 1 (01:13:47):
That's it for this week. I'm Tony Peterson. This has
been The Houndation's podcast as always. Thank you so much
for listening for your support. If you want some more
dog training content, or maybe you're heading out west for
a rifle hunt for something, maybe you're just getting into
a tree stand, spend some time for white tails. Whatever.
The medeater dot com has tons of new content going
up every single week. You can watch films, You can

(01:14:10):
obviously go find other podcasts there. Our network keeps growing.
We have a ton of cool shows on there. Or
maybe just want to read how to article or find
a recipe for some roosters you're going to kill this week. Whatever.
It's all over at the medeater dot com. Go check
it out.

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Ep. 427: Houndations - Developing Well-Trained Dogs the Right Way with Josh Miller

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}Ep. 427: Houndations - Developing Well-Trained Dogs the Right Way with Josh Miller