June 27, 2023 • 27 mins
How does your work quality improve when you get better sleep? Hosts Katie Lowes and Adam Shapiro speak with Ben & Jerry’s executive Sean Greenwood and renowned neurologist and sleep specialist Dr. Chris Winter to find out. Chris explains why the CEOs and pro sports teams he consults with invest in sleep for performance, problem-solving abilities, competitiveness, and professional relationships. Sean shares the ice cream giant's unique approach to promoting employee wellness, including the implementation of an on-site Nap Room at their home offices in Vermont. This episode may change your opinion about whether it’s ok to "sleep on the job."
“Chasing Sleep” is a production of Ruby Studios from iHeartMedia in partnership with Mattress Firm.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
We have the best jobs in the world.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Oh, I love being parents.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Yeah, I mean I love being a parent too.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
No, I was thinking of making pretzels. Yeah, that's one
of your jobs acting. Yes, I love that too, But
I was referring to hosting a podcast about sleep.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
It doesn't feel like work. That's why I didn't think
of it.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Point taken. You're right, it does not.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
But hey, whatever kind of work anyone does, getting quality
sleep is important.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hi.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
I'm Katie Low's and I'm Adam Shapiro, and this is
Chasing Sleep, a production of Ruby Studios from iHeartMedia in
partnership with Mattress Firm.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
On this episode, we're taking the day off to explore
sleep and work. I have so many examples of not
getting enough sleep on some of the biggest work days
of my life, and I want to learn how to
fix that. Adam, do you remember when we were opening
on Broadway. I used to count the minutes that I
(01:00):
would sleep because Adam and I we made our Broadway
debuts together in a musical called Waitress. And it's very
important for your singing voice to get rest, but it's
really hard to get rest when your anxiety is through
the roof.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Because you've got eight days to learn an entire musical
and you're breastfeeding at the same time, and.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
You're opening on Broadway and you have a seven month old.
So I remember distinctly one of those nights where you
have a huge workday.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
I know so many people listening can relate to this,
and you're.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Just staring at the clock knowing that you're not getting sleep.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
I think our guests today are just like us in
that they don't think of what they do as work,
but they do know a lot about sleep.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Sean Greenwood is with us and he's the Grand Poobah
yes that's his actual title, and director of pr and
Communications for Ben and Jerry's. Who doesn't love ice cream?
And who doesn't love somebody that loves both ice cream
and sleep?
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Also joining us doctor Christopher Winch. He has been a
leader in the field of sleep medicine for more than
twenty five years. A fully Board certified neurologist and double
Board certified sleep specialist, doctor Winter advises individuals and organizations
on sleep and personal performance. In fact, Chris works with
a lot of professional athletes who won his advice on
(02:20):
sleep so that they can be at their very best.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Welcome to Chasing Sleep.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
Thank you Katie that it's great to be here. Very excited.
I've heard ice creams involved.
Speaker 6 (02:29):
We'll be addressing Maslow's needs of sleep and ice cream today,
so stay tuned, folks, tune in Katie.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
How am I going to make this podcast any shorter
than six hours?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
There has never been two topics that speak further to
my husband.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
That's it and his heart I am psyched about today.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Chris, let's start with you.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
What does the research say about employees getting good sleep
and how that actually affects productivity?
Speaker 5 (03:00):
It really runs the gamut. We certainly know that individuals
who are involved in shift work, particularly sort of rotating schedules,
can really suffer some significant health consequences, both in the
short and long term. So if you work nine to
five and have a pleasant work environment, and you're consistent
with your eating and your schedule and getting some exercise,
(03:21):
it can be awesome and probably helpful. If one thing
COVID taught us is when you take schedule away from people,
it can be really problematic from sleep. So I think
that it really can run anywhere along the spectrum depending
on what your unique work situation.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Is as an actor.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Sometimes i have a four am call time on a Monday,
and I'm up at three, and then as the week
goes on, later and later and later. I'm called into
work on Fridays maybe at four pm, and I worked
till three am.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
The Hollywood schedule is insane. H It's not great, especially
for the crew.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
Question is The Center for Disease Control says that thirty
five percent of Americans don't regularly get seven good hours
of sleep at night. I guess good is the keyword there.
Because you can get seven hours, it doesn't necessarily mean
that it's been good sleep.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
But what effect does that have on our workplaces?
Speaker 5 (04:08):
Chris Well, the short term, you're more irritable during the day,
you lack concentration, you make more mental errors, and we
know this from tons of research. Just a couple days
of limited sleep, you know, three nights of five hours,
and you make three times more mental errors than you
would without it. When the stats always like to throw
out the professional basketball teams after a short period of
(04:33):
limited sleep, you're making ten percent less free throws than
three pointers.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
So if you look at any game that a team loses,
add in ten percent more three pointers and free throws
and they probably win the game.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Yeah, it's a different game, Sean.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Speaking of companies that have a great work environment, you
have worked for Ben and Jerry's for thirty five plus years.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Is this correct?
Speaker 6 (04:56):
Yeah? Nineteen eighty eight was the beginning, so I've seen
a few pints.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
How big was it in the beginning when you joined
there was.
Speaker 6 (05:02):
Just under one hundred people and now we're in thirty
five countries.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
When people think of Ben and Jerry's, we think of fun,
We think of creative product names alone, deliciousness, just the vibe.
Is the workplace environment actually as fun as it seems
from an outside perspective.
Speaker 6 (05:22):
It's a great place to work. It certainly is a
unique business and definitely feel very fortunate right to have
happened on It's the other thing is getting in thirty
five years ago it wasn't as competitive as it is
today that you go all right today, I'd never get
hired here. They have standards.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
Well.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
Speaking of taking care of your employees, have you done
anything to promote over the years health and wellness amongst
your employees?
Speaker 6 (05:46):
Yeah? Definitely. So we do have like a free health
club workout. Jim Right next to me here. So you know,
one of the things that we do actually give people
is ice cream. So we get three free pints of
ice cream a day.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Yes, Adam, just quit being an he jumps.
Speaker 6 (06:01):
See Adam, you think now like all right, benefits, start
weighing that out. But then we want to take care
of people also, so we do try to balance out
the three free pints a day and make sure people
are taking care of themselves and being healthy. And another
thing we do here for employee wellness is we have
a nap room here at our headquarters in South Burlington.
I'm sitting in there right now. I think you can
see that the bed here next to me and if
(06:23):
I can move this around is.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Like, oh nice, you're there.
Speaker 6 (06:26):
I'm right there in the sleep room.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
So there's a little are those Ben and Jerry's sheets
and Ben and Jerry's comforter a.
Speaker 6 (06:32):
That's a Ben and Jerry's blanket that's on the top there.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
It looks so cozy, So, Chris, this is big for me.
According to a twenty twenty survey by career firm Zippya,
thirty three percent of workers admit to napping while working
from home. That's a third with so many people that
are working from home at least part of the time,
what do you think is going on. Do you think
(06:57):
maybe that companies should be worried about occasion naps or
is it a good thing.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
I think that in the past, napping was viewed as
being universally weak. A decade ago, we built a place
for Pittsburgh Pirates players to sleep, and I remember their
one requirement was they didn't want to call it a
napping or a sleep room because they said that sounded lazy.
Speaker 7 (07:18):
So they were taking steps.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
To provide a place for their players to get a
little sleep, but they ended up calling it the regeneration room,
which I always thought was great. My kid Wanime, asked,
what's going on in the regeneration room. I said, well,
if a player gets his arm ripped off sliding into
second base, the scientists in there can regenerate an arm.
And he believed that for years, which was great, good, perfect.
But I think that more forward thinking employees or employers
(07:43):
are looking at napping and saying, look, taking a fifteen
minute nap to radically improve your performance in the second
half of the day, that's an easy investment. And I'm
going to tell you, there's nothing better than a fifteen
minute little nap or you close your eyes in terms
of the way you feel in the second half the day.
So rather than getting this sort of subpar four hours
(08:06):
later in the day, if you want to lay down
and close your eyes because like you said, you're a parent,
you got a newborn at home, or there's something else
going on. I don't have a problem with that at all.
And I think when you look at sports teams, they've
really embraced that. And I think a lot of forward
thinking companies are installing nap pods and places where their
employees can sleep during the day. So, like Sean, you
(08:28):
build a nap room, even if nobody uses it, you're
sending a message out to the employees that you've got
work to do, but your sleep is really important, and
we're going to support that in any way we can.
Speaker 6 (08:38):
And it's nice to be able to offer it, right,
And so we have this here at our headquarters for people,
and I think it's exactly what Chris was saying, Like
we've got folks who are new parents that all of
a sudden have a newborn and that they're coming in
and they have that look, right that's frazz old and
hair is kind of messed up. And there, you know,
it looks like they watch the Red Sox and Yankees
play till the fourteenth inning and they and you talk
(08:59):
to them, Yeah, baby was up. I didn't get much sleep, tonner.
And so the idea of going whatever the reason is
here to be able to have a spot set up
for people to just say, go get there, have some rest,
get back on your game, because you can tell right this,
like what Chris is saying, it's not rocket science, Like
you know, when people are not at their best, right right,
that's a very easy thing to see when someone's like,
(09:20):
I didn't sleep well and you go, yeah, you're coming
across that way.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Do you notice people feeling better if they've hit the
nap room. Can you speak to any of the things
Chris is speaking about in terms of your workplace.
Speaker 6 (09:34):
When you think of efficiencies, like for our manufacturing facilities,
they are measuring constantly. They know when our mistakes made.
That then leads to downtime, that leads to inefficiencies. Right then,
I think another piece that's interesting, Right, we run our
manufacturing facilities here twenty four hours a day. Who's going
to last for which shift, And what if you get
on the wrong shift. What if you get on the
shift that's not where your strength is. All of a
(09:56):
sudden you're struggling to make it through the whole, whether
it's day or night. What if somebody gets hurt. We
are certainly measuring everything that we can, right the saying
you measure what you treasure. When it comes to business operations,
you've got to do that, whether you're trying to cut
down on ways, make less mistakes, protect your people. So
I think it is really important stuff and to be
able to apply that for all of us makes sense.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Sean mentioned workplace safety being a concern if employees don't
get good sleep.
Speaker 7 (10:22):
Is that true, Oh, one hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (10:25):
It's not only workplace safety means so many more mistakes accidents.
There's so many high profile Three Mile Island, the Exxon Valde's,
and when you go back and read the reports of
these accidents, there's always sleep deprivation involved and really really
bad decision making that seemed great at the time. I mean,
(10:45):
this is a very, very difficult thing to get around.
And even though it's not a workplace accident, I'm sure
Sean's very aware of the fact that individuals who are
not sleeping well are less healthy. Then you start looking
at the long term effects life shortening. And I don't
think that's a pretty radical statement, right. It's considered a
class to a carcinogen, particularly with breast cancer and women
(11:08):
and prostate cancer and men. So they're missing more work,
they're more sick, they're costing insurance is more like the
health consequences. Just keep on giving when it comes to
short changing your sleep. And believe me, I see plenty
of people who say, look as long as I get five,
I'm good. And these are people that are good until
they die at fifty five. Everybody's standing around the funeral
(11:28):
reception and can't figure out, Man, he was so active
and he did triathlons and he was just so healthy. Yes,
but he was rotting on the inside because he was
always limiting the amount of sleep that he needs to get.
So it's a devastating process, but it's a slow one.
It's like rust. So you know, these smart gm the
smart coaches, the smart CEOs always going to invest in
(11:50):
sleep because they're always going to get that money back.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
And then some definitely it's an investment in your people
and come on, It's like, what's more important than that?
So Sean, tell me a little more about the nap
room there of Ben and Jerry's. Do the employees there
ever worry about whether or not they should use it?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Do you have any rules in place?
Speaker 6 (12:09):
Yeah? Right, because I think people get concerned going, we
can't do this, And I think what we feel like
is to trust your people. We're not watching the clock
for them. We trust our employees that they're getting their
stuff done, and when they say, hey, I need to
go recharge, this is their own time, and then we
trust that judgment. So I think, you know, the only
rule really is basically first come, first served. So when
(12:30):
once people get to the nap room, they close it up,
put the sign out saying I'm in here using it.
We try to ask people limits about a half an hour.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
Yeah, the naps. The naps a snack, not a meal. Yeah,
so yeah, thirty minutes. That's a great limit.
Speaker 6 (12:42):
I think that feels like that's the sweet spot for us,
and so we try to encourage fans of napping at
work who are working for us to say, get in
here and find your spot when you need to, just
one at a time. That's the rule. Only one nap, bring.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
One never done.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Oh that's good.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
This has been a great conversation and we're going to
pick it up soon more Chasing Sleep in a moment.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Welcome back to Chasing Sleep. We're talking about sleep and
work with our guests Sean Greenwood from Ben and Jerry's
and sleep specialist doctor Chris Winter.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
When you get.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Hired as a sleep coach, is that what you would
call yourself when you were working with athletes?
Speaker 5 (13:22):
That's sort of offending every coach that I've ever worked with,
because God knows, you don't mean like your pick and
roll was terrible.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
The players aren't calling you coach in the hallways of that.
Speaker 7 (13:31):
Let me take over this practice here real quick.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
When you get hired for something like that, let's say,
with the professional athletes, what is it that you typically
do for them to get started with fixing their sleep schedule.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
The whole reason I started work with athletes is completely accidental.
I was looking at it as a research project, and
one day in two thousand and seven, the San Francisco
Giants called and they said, we have a lot of
trouble with our travel and our scheduling.
Speaker 7 (13:53):
Can you help us.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
I'm like, sure, but understand what you're getting. I have
no experience doing this at all. We started working together
and they won three World Series and span of five years.
And if you look in that first World Series, just
by being smart about the way we traveled them during
their I think that was against the Texas Rangers, if
I recall, they annihilated them because they really paid attention.
(14:16):
They had their manager, Bochie was really into this kind
of stuff. First thing is there's sort of a micro
and a macro thing happening. The micro is every player,
just like every human on this earth, has got a
sleep story to tell. You've got any sleep problem you
can imagine, I mean feeling like you get nervous before
you pitch and just feeling like you don't sleep well.
Speaker 7 (14:36):
So there's all kinds of things. So that's the micro.
Speaker 5 (14:39):
The macro is, how is the team sort of scheduling
itself as they travel. The athletic trainers and the strength
and conditioning coaches, and they're there hours before the players
get there and hours after. So the organization is trying
to figure out how can we support the sleep of
our entire move towards a World series ring and so
(15:00):
it's really just about culture.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
Sure, Chris, can I just throw in this? Could you
not work with the New York Giants? Just throwing that
out there.
Speaker 7 (15:09):
Okay, I do not work for the New York Giants
at this time.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Okay, good, let's just leave it that way.
Speaker 5 (15:14):
That's a podcast episode right there. So picking the time
when we're most able to be productive as an actor,
as an ice cream manufacturer, as an athlete, as a
school teacher, whatever you do is everything.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
That's so interesting.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Whenever I get a call back, whenever I have like
a chemistry read for a big job that I'm up
for and it's like that's going to be at six pm,
I'm like.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
No, you know.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
And whenever they're like your audition is at eleven thirty
or like, you know, ten thirty am, I'm like, oh,
I'm going to be peak. I'm going to be like
have up and all my cylinders firing and just really
in the zone.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (15:49):
Famous scientists had this great quotation.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
It was something like, for everything we do, our bodies
have a peak and a troth.
Speaker 7 (15:57):
So there is a perfect time for Katie to read
for the.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Part John, are you a morning person or night person?
Speaker 6 (16:02):
Yeah, I'm a morning guy, but I will you know,
I still go I hate sat in front of Chris,
but I'm one of those guys like, oh I got
five I'll manage tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
You know.
Speaker 6 (16:10):
It'll be like twelve thirty at night when stuff is
winding down, and then five thirty six, I'm up and going. Right,
it's rusting from the inside.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Wait, it's okay, so you're a morning person, but your
lax on, like, whoops, I only got five hours of sleep.
Do you notice yourself how important that good sleep is
before you have a big meeting or have to make
important decisions.
Speaker 6 (16:32):
Yeah, I think. I mean, i'd say for the company,
we definitely have that feeling like people seem to be
so much more creative when they're rested, and when you're
trying to be innovative around that and people are not rested.
I think it's very much. That's pretty clear. And then personally,
I think feel the same way. And for me, a
lot of times, it feels like it's not that it
wasn't trying to get good sleep. It might be like
(16:53):
you didn't make it all the way through. It feels
like that was interrupted. It just wasn't as effective, right,
as being able to put your head down and be
done all in a run.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
Let's talk about sleep schedules. How important, Chris is a
schedule for sleeping? How do you kind of go about
making one?
Speaker 5 (17:10):
I think it's important because a brain loves a schedule.
So I'm a neurologist. That's sort of my background is
I'm a brain doctor. And when you think about the body,
everything the body does, making red blood cells, digesting something,
eating a pretzel, I mean, everything that's happening in your
body is scheduled. There's nothing accidental about anything. All these
(17:32):
things are happening kind of behind the scenes. But sleep,
when you went to bed and when you woke up
is a little window we get into our circadian rhythm.
And so one of the things that we can do
to really regulate that rhythm is to sleep on a schedule,
eat on a schedule.
Speaker 7 (17:49):
There was a great study.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
Where I think they gave somebody a candy bar, but
we could substitute a pint of ice cream chubby Hobby,
and if you gave it to the same person at
the same time every day, versus we just give it
to them at random time time. There's a massive metabolic
consequence for the random pint eaters that you don't see
in the people who eat their pint every day at
three o'clock in the afternoon, because the body knows it's coming.
(18:11):
So when we create a sleep schedule, we're automatically creating
a schedule of the same wake time every day, probably
influencing when we have breakfast. So that first part of
the day is really important for setting the tone for
the next twenty four hours. So I'm not here to
judge any schedule, but the less random we can make it,
(18:34):
the better in terms of when you look at all
the health consequences of things like shift work, it's not
the shift work, it's the randomness of the schedule. Okay,
it's three am. What are you doing for two weeks?
I'm on the line for another two weeks. I'm sound
asleep in bed. That's It's like being on a jet
that is literally flying around the world continuously. That's what
(18:56):
your body is experiencing. So as much as we can,
we want to eliminate that as much as possible.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
I also wanted to talk about real quick about competitiveness
and motivation.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
How does sleep factor into that.
Speaker 5 (19:08):
Sleep's huge when it comes to motivation, and in fact,
when you look at young people, that's a big tip off.
Your body needs sleep like it needs oxygen, food, and water.
So if it's not getting it, your body doesn't care
about your job, or your family, or your hobby or
your pretzel business, because all it really wants to do
is sleep. So once that's satisfied, it can now go
(19:31):
to that second tier of motivations. But we've got to
satisfy this primary need before we can move on to
do other things in our life. And that's good, that's survival.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
If you're able to schedule your sleep and get on
a routine. Have you noticed that athletes and how their
competitive nature and how they can succeed.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Does that go up?
Speaker 3 (19:53):
And does that translate for anyone who may be trying
to be more productive or may be trying to better
themselves at work. Get ahead at that promotion, get that gig.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
Absolutely. I don't think there's any argument. That was a
big thing with the Phillies last year when they were
in the World Series, like should we stay over and
sleep or should we get out of town quickly and
get back to Philly, And really thinking about sleep as
a modifiable variable towards better performance than whatever we do.
I'm not a huge sports fan, but I like the
idea of let's fix the sleep in this unit, and
(20:24):
then we can look at all the statistics that are
being kept about them and see if they improved.
Speaker 7 (20:28):
So it's like a big laboratory.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Oh, that's really interesting that to work with people who
are constantly and publicly.
Speaker 7 (20:34):
Measured, absolutely measured.
Speaker 5 (20:37):
Yes, we can easily show that if you're more of
a night out like you, you're the guy that I
want to come in in the eighth inning on that
West Coast game because it's actually two am. Oh, you're
the picture that I want because you're a night out.
Why would I want the morning person coming in? You've
already kind of gone to sleep in your brain.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
I've never thought about that.
Speaker 7 (20:57):
So those are the easy things to show.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Wow, this this is so fascinating. Can you talk Chris
before we go that. Have you noticed a big difference
with everyone working from home since COVID and for example,
a lot of people having their office in their bedroom.
Let's say, can you talk to.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
This Yes, I think that is a real double edged
sword there for the individuals who are sleep deprived and
spending an hour and fifteen minutes commuting each way. It's
been a godsend to them, sure, because the commuting was
something that was an obstacle to getting the right amount
of sleep. The darker side is the lack of sort
(21:40):
of body movement and the ability to sleep whenever you
want to now, so now I don't have to be
in the office, I could just sleep in. I think
when you start to lose what we call our zeitgibbers
or time cues. When do you eat, Where do you eat,
Where are you getting sunlight from? All the things that
let you know you're in a different place and time
(22:01):
during the day. As you start to lose those, sleep
can become extremely deteriorative.
Speaker 7 (22:07):
You can do it.
Speaker 5 (22:08):
You just have to be smart about how you structure
your day in a way that's the healthiest.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Sean, Are you guys at Ben and Jerry's working from
home now more often or are you back in the
office more.
Speaker 6 (22:19):
At the beginning of the pandemic we were full everyone at
home and over the last I think probably since a
year ago in November, so probably eighteen months or so
we've been office reopened, but still working in a hybrid model.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
For you working from home.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
Were you getting more sleep or did it sort of
infiltrate the work, infiltrate.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Your bedroom in your home, and all of a sudden
you're getting lesslie.
Speaker 6 (22:41):
Yeah, I think the latter, right. I think I've found like,
all of a sudden, you usually when you're at the office,
you would say, oh, it's hitting like five six o'clock,
I want to wind up and head home and have
dinner with the family. And at home, I was in
our attic, made my office space, and there'd be so
many nights where you just be sitting there, working away,
working away, working away, and all of a sudden, it's
seven pm, and you're like, there was just no sense
(23:02):
of time. I think all of a sudden, having work
at home full time, it was just really easy to
kind of keep that going.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Sean and Chris, thank you both so much for your
time and your expertise, and for talking to us about
ice cream and sleep, and for not working with the
New York Giants.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
I have to say too, thank you both so much
for coming on Chasing Sleep today. Thank you for coming on.
Speaker 7 (23:25):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
I mean, I've never felt like I could use the
biggest bowl of ice cream and a nap.
Speaker 6 (23:35):
I know.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
I mean, how great did that sound?
Speaker 5 (23:38):
Right?
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Now?
Speaker 4 (23:38):
I got to get to Vermont and visit that factory.
That's one thing.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
It's a productive workplace, which is my happy place, A
workplace environment that involves a gym in encouraging wellness, environment
with good sleep, a nap room. I've never felt more
supported in my trailer in my life.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yes, and I don't judge you for it either.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
You remember, in our last episode on sleep and creativity,
we learned that a short nap in the middle of
the day really helps with memory consolidation and can really
boost not only your creativity but your productivity. And it
sounds like more companies are waking up to that fact.
You know, everyone listening. I am not a sports fan.
I don't care about sports, but I found so many
(24:23):
of the things that Chris talked about. Even when talking
about sports, we're so easily comparable to a common job
that it all still applies. It's like whether you have
a big game or a big meeting, that sleep is
so important, Which brings me to my next point, which
is my friends who say.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Five hours a night is all I need.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
It's not a good thing to say. Five hours is
all I need. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
In fact, you know, let's not listening to your body's
cues or to nature's keys to just be four five
hours a night.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
And like Chris said, it's you might not see it
like a rust inside and the amount of sleep you
or wedding is affecting your decision making and your day
to day and your health.
Speaker 4 (25:05):
I also felt inspired that fifteen minutes is enough. I
always think like I can't nap. I don't have an
hour and a half in the middle of the day
to just like shut it down, you know, But it
doesn't have to be an hour and a half. It
could be you could just pop into that Ben and
Jerry's nap room, go to bed fifteen minutes, and you
wake up refreshed.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
How about that Ben and Jerry's nap room. I feel
like it was so cozy. The Ben and Jerry's blanket
is divine.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
And I think whether you're talking about being at Ben
and Jerry's or working with big sports teams, all these
things apphy.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Yeah, And if you're an employer and you have employees,
I kept thinking about Adam, like you with all your pretzel.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Employees driving around.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Making sure like, oh, we got rest like someone who
did a really hard shift the day before that might
have ended really late, really.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Shouldn't be doing the next morning.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
And I just need to schedule all my auditions for
the morning.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
I mean, you really should, you really should. I wonder
if there's a Broadway that does shows at eight am.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Oh, I used to love the matiname Ah.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
You'd have seven tonys at this point.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Obviously, who knew work and sleep they really go together.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
I did.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
I've always known that. I've just always waited for my
bosses to catch up.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Oh, we have another good topic next week.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
According to Nielsen IQ, Americans spent over a billion dollars
a year on melatonin alone. And that's just one of
the sleep supplements on the market.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Really, I don't even know what the other sleep supplements are.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Oh, there's like magnesium, which you can take in pill form.
There's also like cama meal tea, or there's tons of
supplemental things that people do and use in order to
get a better night's sleep. And we're talking about something
they call the holistic health triangle, which is actually nutrition, fitness,
(26:48):
and quality sleep.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Oof. I got one of those.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
I can't wait for this episode and We would love
to know what you think of this episode, so please
give us a rating and review on your favorite podcast
app we take them to heart.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Or hit us up on our socials. I'm on Instagram
at Shabby.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Shaps and I'm at kat q Low's on the Ground.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
And don't forget to follow or subscribe for future.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Episodes until next time. Hoping you're living your best while
sleeping your best.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Chasing Sleep is a production of Ruby Studios from iHeartMedia
in partnership with Mattress Firm. Our executive producer is Molly Sosha.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
This show was written and produced by sound up brands
Dave Beesing, Jason Jackson, and Michelle Rice.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
Chasing Sleep is hosted by Katie Lows and Adam Shapiro.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
That's Us. Thank you to our partners at Mattress Firm.
We have the best jobs in the world.
Speaker 2 (00:02):
Oh, I love being parents.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Yeah, I mean I love being a parent too.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
No, I was thinking of making pretzels. Yeah, that's one
of your jobs acting. Yes, I love that too, But
I was referring to hosting a podcast about sleep.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
It doesn't feel like work. That's why I didn't think
of it.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
Point taken. You're right, it does not.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
But hey, whatever kind of work anyone does, getting quality
sleep is important.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Hi.
Speaker 4 (00:29):
I'm Katie Low's and I'm Adam Shapiro, and this is
Chasing Sleep, a production of Ruby Studios from iHeartMedia in
partnership with Mattress Firm.
Speaker 3 (00:39):
On this episode, we're taking the day off to explore
sleep and work. I have so many examples of not
getting enough sleep on some of the biggest work days
of my life, and I want to learn how to
fix that. Adam, do you remember when we were opening
on Broadway. I used to count the minutes that I
(01:00):
would sleep because Adam and I we made our Broadway
debuts together in a musical called Waitress. And it's very
important for your singing voice to get rest, but it's
really hard to get rest when your anxiety is through
the roof.
Speaker 4 (01:12):
Because you've got eight days to learn an entire musical
and you're breastfeeding at the same time, and.
Speaker 3 (01:19):
You're opening on Broadway and you have a seven month old.
So I remember distinctly one of those nights where you
have a huge workday.
Speaker 1 (01:27):
I know so many people listening can relate to this,
and you're.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Just staring at the clock knowing that you're not getting sleep.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
I think our guests today are just like us in
that they don't think of what they do as work,
but they do know a lot about sleep.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Sean Greenwood is with us and he's the Grand Poobah
yes that's his actual title, and director of pr and
Communications for Ben and Jerry's. Who doesn't love ice cream?
And who doesn't love somebody that loves both ice cream
and sleep?
Speaker 4 (01:57):
Also joining us doctor Christopher Winch. He has been a
leader in the field of sleep medicine for more than
twenty five years. A fully Board certified neurologist and double
Board certified sleep specialist, doctor Winter advises individuals and organizations
on sleep and personal performance. In fact, Chris works with
a lot of professional athletes who won his advice on
(02:20):
sleep so that they can be at their very best.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
Welcome to Chasing Sleep.
Speaker 5 (02:24):
Thank you Katie that it's great to be here. Very excited.
I've heard ice creams involved.
Speaker 6 (02:29):
We'll be addressing Maslow's needs of sleep and ice cream today,
so stay tuned, folks, tune in Katie.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
How am I going to make this podcast any shorter
than six hours?
Speaker 3 (02:38):
There has never been two topics that speak further to
my husband.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
That's it and his heart I am psyched about today.
Speaker 1 (02:49):
Chris, let's start with you.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
What does the research say about employees getting good sleep
and how that actually affects productivity?
Speaker 5 (03:00):
It really runs the gamut. We certainly know that individuals
who are involved in shift work, particularly sort of rotating schedules,
can really suffer some significant health consequences, both in the
short and long term. So if you work nine to
five and have a pleasant work environment, and you're consistent
with your eating and your schedule and getting some exercise,
(03:21):
it can be awesome and probably helpful. If one thing
COVID taught us is when you take schedule away from people,
it can be really problematic from sleep. So I think
that it really can run anywhere along the spectrum depending
on what your unique work situation.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Is as an actor.
Speaker 3 (03:37):
Sometimes i have a four am call time on a Monday,
and I'm up at three, and then as the week
goes on, later and later and later. I'm called into
work on Fridays maybe at four pm, and I worked
till three am.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
The Hollywood schedule is insane. H It's not great, especially
for the crew.
Speaker 4 (03:52):
Question is The Center for Disease Control says that thirty
five percent of Americans don't regularly get seven good hours
of sleep at night. I guess good is the keyword there.
Because you can get seven hours, it doesn't necessarily mean
that it's been good sleep.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
But what effect does that have on our workplaces?
Speaker 5 (04:08):
Chris Well, the short term, you're more irritable during the day,
you lack concentration, you make more mental errors, and we
know this from tons of research. Just a couple days
of limited sleep, you know, three nights of five hours,
and you make three times more mental errors than you
would without it. When the stats always like to throw
out the professional basketball teams after a short period of
(04:33):
limited sleep, you're making ten percent less free throws than
three pointers.
Speaker 2 (04:36):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (04:37):
So if you look at any game that a team loses,
add in ten percent more three pointers and free throws
and they probably win the game.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
Yeah, it's a different game, Sean.
Speaker 3 (04:47):
Speaking of companies that have a great work environment, you
have worked for Ben and Jerry's for thirty five plus years.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Is this correct?
Speaker 6 (04:56):
Yeah? Nineteen eighty eight was the beginning, so I've seen
a few pints.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
How big was it in the beginning when you joined
there was.
Speaker 6 (05:02):
Just under one hundred people and now we're in thirty
five countries.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (05:07):
When people think of Ben and Jerry's, we think of fun,
We think of creative product names alone, deliciousness, just the vibe.
Is the workplace environment actually as fun as it seems
from an outside perspective.
Speaker 6 (05:22):
It's a great place to work. It certainly is a
unique business and definitely feel very fortunate right to have
happened on It's the other thing is getting in thirty
five years ago it wasn't as competitive as it is
today that you go all right today, I'd never get
hired here. They have standards.
Speaker 5 (05:39):
Well.
Speaker 4 (05:39):
Speaking of taking care of your employees, have you done
anything to promote over the years health and wellness amongst
your employees?
Speaker 6 (05:46):
Yeah? Definitely. So we do have like a free health
club workout. Jim Right next to me here. So you know,
one of the things that we do actually give people
is ice cream. So we get three free pints of
ice cream a day.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
Yes, Adam, just quit being an he jumps.
Speaker 6 (06:01):
See Adam, you think now like all right, benefits, start
weighing that out. But then we want to take care
of people also, so we do try to balance out
the three free pints a day and make sure people
are taking care of themselves and being healthy. And another
thing we do here for employee wellness is we have
a nap room here at our headquarters in South Burlington.
I'm sitting in there right now. I think you can
see that the bed here next to me and if
(06:23):
I can move this around is.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
Like, oh nice, you're there.
Speaker 6 (06:26):
I'm right there in the sleep room.
Speaker 3 (06:27):
So there's a little are those Ben and Jerry's sheets
and Ben and Jerry's comforter a.
Speaker 6 (06:32):
That's a Ben and Jerry's blanket that's on the top there.
Speaker 3 (06:35):
It looks so cozy, So, Chris, this is big for me.
According to a twenty twenty survey by career firm Zippya,
thirty three percent of workers admit to napping while working
from home. That's a third with so many people that
are working from home at least part of the time,
what do you think is going on. Do you think
(06:57):
maybe that companies should be worried about occasion naps or
is it a good thing.
Speaker 5 (07:02):
I think that in the past, napping was viewed as
being universally weak. A decade ago, we built a place
for Pittsburgh Pirates players to sleep, and I remember their
one requirement was they didn't want to call it a
napping or a sleep room because they said that sounded lazy.
Speaker 7 (07:18):
So they were taking steps.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
To provide a place for their players to get a
little sleep, but they ended up calling it the regeneration room,
which I always thought was great. My kid Wanime, asked,
what's going on in the regeneration room. I said, well,
if a player gets his arm ripped off sliding into
second base, the scientists in there can regenerate an arm.
And he believed that for years, which was great, good, perfect.
But I think that more forward thinking employees or employers
(07:43):
are looking at napping and saying, look, taking a fifteen
minute nap to radically improve your performance in the second
half of the day, that's an easy investment. And I'm
going to tell you, there's nothing better than a fifteen
minute little nap or you close your eyes in terms
of the way you feel in the second half the day.
So rather than getting this sort of subpar four hours
(08:06):
later in the day, if you want to lay down
and close your eyes because like you said, you're a parent,
you got a newborn at home, or there's something else
going on. I don't have a problem with that at all.
And I think when you look at sports teams, they've
really embraced that. And I think a lot of forward
thinking companies are installing nap pods and places where their
employees can sleep during the day. So, like Sean, you
(08:28):
build a nap room, even if nobody uses it, you're
sending a message out to the employees that you've got
work to do, but your sleep is really important, and
we're going to support that in any way we can.
Speaker 6 (08:38):
And it's nice to be able to offer it, right,
And so we have this here at our headquarters for people,
and I think it's exactly what Chris was saying, Like
we've got folks who are new parents that all of
a sudden have a newborn and that they're coming in
and they have that look, right that's frazz old and
hair is kind of messed up. And there, you know,
it looks like they watch the Red Sox and Yankees
play till the fourteenth inning and they and you talk
(08:59):
to them, Yeah, baby was up. I didn't get much sleep, tonner.
And so the idea of going whatever the reason is
here to be able to have a spot set up
for people to just say, go get there, have some rest,
get back on your game, because you can tell right this,
like what Chris is saying, it's not rocket science, Like
you know, when people are not at their best, right right,
that's a very easy thing to see when someone's like,
(09:20):
I didn't sleep well and you go, yeah, you're coming
across that way.
Speaker 3 (09:24):
Do you notice people feeling better if they've hit the
nap room. Can you speak to any of the things
Chris is speaking about in terms of your workplace.
Speaker 6 (09:34):
When you think of efficiencies, like for our manufacturing facilities,
they are measuring constantly. They know when our mistakes made.
That then leads to downtime, that leads to inefficiencies. Right then,
I think another piece that's interesting, Right, we run our
manufacturing facilities here twenty four hours a day. Who's going
to last for which shift, And what if you get
on the wrong shift. What if you get on the
shift that's not where your strength is. All of a
(09:56):
sudden you're struggling to make it through the whole, whether
it's day or night. What if somebody gets hurt. We
are certainly measuring everything that we can, right the saying
you measure what you treasure. When it comes to business operations,
you've got to do that, whether you're trying to cut
down on ways, make less mistakes, protect your people. So
I think it is really important stuff and to be
able to apply that for all of us makes sense.
Speaker 3 (10:17):
Sean mentioned workplace safety being a concern if employees don't
get good sleep.
Speaker 7 (10:22):
Is that true, Oh, one hundred percent.
Speaker 5 (10:25):
It's not only workplace safety means so many more mistakes accidents.
There's so many high profile Three Mile Island, the Exxon Valde's,
and when you go back and read the reports of
these accidents, there's always sleep deprivation involved and really really
bad decision making that seemed great at the time. I mean,
(10:45):
this is a very, very difficult thing to get around.
And even though it's not a workplace accident, I'm sure
Sean's very aware of the fact that individuals who are
not sleeping well are less healthy. Then you start looking
at the long term effects life shortening. And I don't
think that's a pretty radical statement, right. It's considered a
class to a carcinogen, particularly with breast cancer and women
(11:08):
and prostate cancer and men. So they're missing more work,
they're more sick, they're costing insurance is more like the
health consequences. Just keep on giving when it comes to
short changing your sleep. And believe me, I see plenty
of people who say, look as long as I get five,
I'm good. And these are people that are good until
they die at fifty five. Everybody's standing around the funeral
(11:28):
reception and can't figure out, Man, he was so active
and he did triathlons and he was just so healthy. Yes,
but he was rotting on the inside because he was
always limiting the amount of sleep that he needs to get.
So it's a devastating process, but it's a slow one.
It's like rust. So you know, these smart gm the
smart coaches, the smart CEOs always going to invest in
(11:50):
sleep because they're always going to get that money back.
Speaker 3 (11:53):
And then some definitely it's an investment in your people
and come on, It's like, what's more important than that?
So Sean, tell me a little more about the nap
room there of Ben and Jerry's. Do the employees there
ever worry about whether or not they should use it?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
Do you have any rules in place?
Speaker 6 (12:09):
Yeah? Right, because I think people get concerned going, we
can't do this, And I think what we feel like
is to trust your people. We're not watching the clock
for them. We trust our employees that they're getting their
stuff done, and when they say, hey, I need to
go recharge, this is their own time, and then we
trust that judgment. So I think, you know, the only
rule really is basically first come, first served. So when
(12:30):
once people get to the nap room, they close it up,
put the sign out saying I'm in here using it.
We try to ask people limits about a half an hour.
Speaker 5 (12:36):
Yeah, the naps. The naps a snack, not a meal. Yeah,
so yeah, thirty minutes. That's a great limit.
Speaker 6 (12:42):
I think that feels like that's the sweet spot for us,
and so we try to encourage fans of napping at
work who are working for us to say, get in
here and find your spot when you need to, just
one at a time. That's the rule. Only one nap, bring.
Speaker 2 (12:54):
One never done.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
Oh that's good.
Speaker 4 (12:57):
This has been a great conversation and we're going to
pick it up soon more Chasing Sleep in a moment.
Speaker 3 (13:06):
Welcome back to Chasing Sleep. We're talking about sleep and
work with our guests Sean Greenwood from Ben and Jerry's
and sleep specialist doctor Chris Winter.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
When you get.
Speaker 4 (13:18):
Hired as a sleep coach, is that what you would
call yourself when you were working with athletes?
Speaker 5 (13:22):
That's sort of offending every coach that I've ever worked with,
because God knows, you don't mean like your pick and
roll was terrible.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
The players aren't calling you coach in the hallways of that.
Speaker 7 (13:31):
Let me take over this practice here real quick.
Speaker 4 (13:33):
When you get hired for something like that, let's say,
with the professional athletes, what is it that you typically
do for them to get started with fixing their sleep schedule.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
The whole reason I started work with athletes is completely accidental.
I was looking at it as a research project, and
one day in two thousand and seven, the San Francisco
Giants called and they said, we have a lot of
trouble with our travel and our scheduling.
Speaker 7 (13:53):
Can you help us.
Speaker 5 (13:54):
I'm like, sure, but understand what you're getting. I have
no experience doing this at all. We started working together
and they won three World Series and span of five years.
And if you look in that first World Series, just
by being smart about the way we traveled them during
their I think that was against the Texas Rangers, if
I recall, they annihilated them because they really paid attention.
(14:16):
They had their manager, Bochie was really into this kind
of stuff. First thing is there's sort of a micro
and a macro thing happening. The micro is every player,
just like every human on this earth, has got a
sleep story to tell. You've got any sleep problem you
can imagine, I mean feeling like you get nervous before
you pitch and just feeling like you don't sleep well.
Speaker 7 (14:36):
So there's all kinds of things. So that's the micro.
Speaker 5 (14:39):
The macro is, how is the team sort of scheduling
itself as they travel. The athletic trainers and the strength
and conditioning coaches, and they're there hours before the players
get there and hours after. So the organization is trying
to figure out how can we support the sleep of
our entire move towards a World series ring and so
(15:00):
it's really just about culture.
Speaker 4 (15:02):
Sure, Chris, can I just throw in this? Could you
not work with the New York Giants? Just throwing that
out there.
Speaker 7 (15:09):
Okay, I do not work for the New York Giants
at this time.
Speaker 2 (15:12):
Okay, good, let's just leave it that way.
Speaker 5 (15:14):
That's a podcast episode right there. So picking the time
when we're most able to be productive as an actor,
as an ice cream manufacturer, as an athlete, as a
school teacher, whatever you do is everything.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
That's so interesting.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Whenever I get a call back, whenever I have like
a chemistry read for a big job that I'm up
for and it's like that's going to be at six pm,
I'm like.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
No, you know.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
And whenever they're like your audition is at eleven thirty
or like, you know, ten thirty am, I'm like, oh,
I'm going to be peak. I'm going to be like
have up and all my cylinders firing and just really
in the zone.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 7 (15:49):
Famous scientists had this great quotation.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
It was something like, for everything we do, our bodies
have a peak and a troth.
Speaker 7 (15:57):
So there is a perfect time for Katie to read
for the.
Speaker 2 (16:00):
Part John, are you a morning person or night person?
Speaker 6 (16:02):
Yeah, I'm a morning guy, but I will you know,
I still go I hate sat in front of Chris,
but I'm one of those guys like, oh I got
five I'll manage tomorrow.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
You know.
Speaker 6 (16:10):
It'll be like twelve thirty at night when stuff is
winding down, and then five thirty six, I'm up and going. Right,
it's rusting from the inside.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
Wait, it's okay, so you're a morning person, but your
lax on, like, whoops, I only got five hours of sleep.
Do you notice yourself how important that good sleep is
before you have a big meeting or have to make
important decisions.
Speaker 6 (16:32):
Yeah, I think. I mean, i'd say for the company,
we definitely have that feeling like people seem to be
so much more creative when they're rested, and when you're
trying to be innovative around that and people are not rested.
I think it's very much. That's pretty clear. And then personally,
I think feel the same way. And for me, a
lot of times, it feels like it's not that it
wasn't trying to get good sleep. It might be like
(16:53):
you didn't make it all the way through. It feels
like that was interrupted. It just wasn't as effective, right,
as being able to put your head down and be
done all in a run.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
Let's talk about sleep schedules. How important, Chris is a
schedule for sleeping? How do you kind of go about
making one?
Speaker 5 (17:10):
I think it's important because a brain loves a schedule.
So I'm a neurologist. That's sort of my background is
I'm a brain doctor. And when you think about the body,
everything the body does, making red blood cells, digesting something,
eating a pretzel, I mean, everything that's happening in your
body is scheduled. There's nothing accidental about anything. All these
(17:32):
things are happening kind of behind the scenes. But sleep,
when you went to bed and when you woke up
is a little window we get into our circadian rhythm.
And so one of the things that we can do
to really regulate that rhythm is to sleep on a schedule,
eat on a schedule.
Speaker 7 (17:49):
There was a great study.
Speaker 5 (17:49):
Where I think they gave somebody a candy bar, but
we could substitute a pint of ice cream chubby Hobby,
and if you gave it to the same person at
the same time every day, versus we just give it
to them at random time time. There's a massive metabolic
consequence for the random pint eaters that you don't see
in the people who eat their pint every day at
three o'clock in the afternoon, because the body knows it's coming.
(18:11):
So when we create a sleep schedule, we're automatically creating
a schedule of the same wake time every day, probably
influencing when we have breakfast. So that first part of
the day is really important for setting the tone for
the next twenty four hours. So I'm not here to
judge any schedule, but the less random we can make it,
(18:34):
the better in terms of when you look at all
the health consequences of things like shift work, it's not
the shift work, it's the randomness of the schedule. Okay,
it's three am. What are you doing for two weeks?
I'm on the line for another two weeks. I'm sound
asleep in bed. That's It's like being on a jet
that is literally flying around the world continuously. That's what
(18:56):
your body is experiencing. So as much as we can,
we want to eliminate that as much as possible.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
I also wanted to talk about real quick about competitiveness
and motivation.
Speaker 2 (19:06):
How does sleep factor into that.
Speaker 5 (19:08):
Sleep's huge when it comes to motivation, and in fact,
when you look at young people, that's a big tip off.
Your body needs sleep like it needs oxygen, food, and water.
So if it's not getting it, your body doesn't care
about your job, or your family, or your hobby or
your pretzel business, because all it really wants to do
is sleep. So once that's satisfied, it can now go
(19:31):
to that second tier of motivations. But we've got to
satisfy this primary need before we can move on to
do other things in our life. And that's good, that's survival.
Speaker 3 (19:40):
If you're able to schedule your sleep and get on
a routine. Have you noticed that athletes and how their
competitive nature and how they can succeed.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Does that go up?
Speaker 3 (19:53):
And does that translate for anyone who may be trying
to be more productive or may be trying to better
themselves at work. Get ahead at that promotion, get that gig.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
Absolutely. I don't think there's any argument. That was a
big thing with the Phillies last year when they were
in the World Series, like should we stay over and
sleep or should we get out of town quickly and
get back to Philly, And really thinking about sleep as
a modifiable variable towards better performance than whatever we do.
I'm not a huge sports fan, but I like the
idea of let's fix the sleep in this unit, and
(20:24):
then we can look at all the statistics that are
being kept about them and see if they improved.
Speaker 7 (20:28):
So it's like a big laboratory.
Speaker 4 (20:30):
Oh, that's really interesting that to work with people who
are constantly and publicly.
Speaker 7 (20:34):
Measured, absolutely measured.
Speaker 5 (20:37):
Yes, we can easily show that if you're more of
a night out like you, you're the guy that I
want to come in in the eighth inning on that
West Coast game because it's actually two am. Oh, you're
the picture that I want because you're a night out.
Why would I want the morning person coming in? You've
already kind of gone to sleep in your brain.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
I've never thought about that.
Speaker 7 (20:57):
So those are the easy things to show.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
Wow, this this is so fascinating. Can you talk Chris
before we go that. Have you noticed a big difference
with everyone working from home since COVID and for example,
a lot of people having their office in their bedroom.
Let's say, can you talk to.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
This Yes, I think that is a real double edged
sword there for the individuals who are sleep deprived and
spending an hour and fifteen minutes commuting each way. It's
been a godsend to them, sure, because the commuting was
something that was an obstacle to getting the right amount
of sleep. The darker side is the lack of sort
(21:40):
of body movement and the ability to sleep whenever you
want to now, so now I don't have to be
in the office, I could just sleep in. I think
when you start to lose what we call our zeitgibbers
or time cues. When do you eat, Where do you eat,
Where are you getting sunlight from? All the things that
let you know you're in a different place and time
(22:01):
during the day. As you start to lose those, sleep
can become extremely deteriorative.
Speaker 7 (22:07):
You can do it.
Speaker 5 (22:08):
You just have to be smart about how you structure
your day in a way that's the healthiest.
Speaker 4 (22:12):
Sean, Are you guys at Ben and Jerry's working from
home now more often or are you back in the
office more.
Speaker 6 (22:19):
At the beginning of the pandemic we were full everyone at
home and over the last I think probably since a
year ago in November, so probably eighteen months or so
we've been office reopened, but still working in a hybrid model.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
For you working from home.
Speaker 4 (22:32):
Were you getting more sleep or did it sort of
infiltrate the work, infiltrate.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Your bedroom in your home, and all of a sudden
you're getting lesslie.
Speaker 6 (22:41):
Yeah, I think the latter, right. I think I've found like,
all of a sudden, you usually when you're at the office,
you would say, oh, it's hitting like five six o'clock,
I want to wind up and head home and have
dinner with the family. And at home, I was in
our attic, made my office space, and there'd be so
many nights where you just be sitting there, working away,
working away, working away, and all of a sudden, it's
seven pm, and you're like, there was just no sense
(23:02):
of time. I think all of a sudden, having work
at home full time, it was just really easy to
kind of keep that going.
Speaker 4 (23:09):
Sean and Chris, thank you both so much for your
time and your expertise, and for talking to us about
ice cream and sleep, and for not working with the
New York Giants.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
I have to say too, thank you both so much
for coming on Chasing Sleep today. Thank you for coming on.
Speaker 7 (23:25):
Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
I mean, I've never felt like I could use the
biggest bowl of ice cream and a nap.
Speaker 6 (23:35):
I know.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
I mean, how great did that sound?
Speaker 5 (23:38):
Right?
Speaker 2 (23:38):
Now?
Speaker 4 (23:38):
I got to get to Vermont and visit that factory.
That's one thing.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
It's a productive workplace, which is my happy place, A
workplace environment that involves a gym in encouraging wellness, environment
with good sleep, a nap room. I've never felt more
supported in my trailer in my life.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yes, and I don't judge you for it either.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
You remember, in our last episode on sleep and creativity,
we learned that a short nap in the middle of
the day really helps with memory consolidation and can really
boost not only your creativity but your productivity. And it
sounds like more companies are waking up to that fact.
You know, everyone listening. I am not a sports fan.
I don't care about sports, but I found so many
(24:23):
of the things that Chris talked about. Even when talking
about sports, we're so easily comparable to a common job
that it all still applies. It's like whether you have
a big game or a big meeting, that sleep is
so important, Which brings me to my next point, which
is my friends who say.
Speaker 1 (24:40):
Five hours a night is all I need.
Speaker 2 (24:42):
It's not a good thing to say. Five hours is
all I need. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:46):
In fact, you know, let's not listening to your body's
cues or to nature's keys to just be four five
hours a night.
Speaker 3 (24:53):
And like Chris said, it's you might not see it
like a rust inside and the amount of sleep you
or wedding is affecting your decision making and your day
to day and your health.
Speaker 4 (25:05):
I also felt inspired that fifteen minutes is enough. I
always think like I can't nap. I don't have an
hour and a half in the middle of the day
to just like shut it down, you know, But it
doesn't have to be an hour and a half. It
could be you could just pop into that Ben and
Jerry's nap room, go to bed fifteen minutes, and you
wake up refreshed.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
How about that Ben and Jerry's nap room. I feel
like it was so cozy. The Ben and Jerry's blanket
is divine.
Speaker 4 (25:27):
And I think whether you're talking about being at Ben
and Jerry's or working with big sports teams, all these
things apphy.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Yeah, And if you're an employer and you have employees,
I kept thinking about Adam, like you with all your pretzel.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
Employees driving around.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
Making sure like, oh, we got rest like someone who
did a really hard shift the day before that might
have ended really late, really.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Shouldn't be doing the next morning.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
And I just need to schedule all my auditions for
the morning.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
I mean, you really should, you really should. I wonder
if there's a Broadway that does shows at eight am.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Oh, I used to love the matiname Ah.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
You'd have seven tonys at this point.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
Obviously, who knew work and sleep they really go together.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
I did.
Speaker 4 (26:08):
I've always known that. I've just always waited for my
bosses to catch up.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Oh, we have another good topic next week.
Speaker 3 (26:15):
According to Nielsen IQ, Americans spent over a billion dollars
a year on melatonin alone. And that's just one of
the sleep supplements on the market.
Speaker 2 (26:23):
Really, I don't even know what the other sleep supplements are.
Speaker 3 (26:26):
Oh, there's like magnesium, which you can take in pill form.
There's also like cama meal tea, or there's tons of
supplemental things that people do and use in order to
get a better night's sleep. And we're talking about something
they call the holistic health triangle, which is actually nutrition, fitness,
(26:48):
and quality sleep.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
Oof. I got one of those.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
I can't wait for this episode and We would love
to know what you think of this episode, so please
give us a rating and review on your favorite podcast
app we take them to heart.
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Or hit us up on our socials. I'm on Instagram
at Shabby.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
Shaps and I'm at kat q Low's on the Ground.
Speaker 2 (27:08):
And don't forget to follow or subscribe for future.
Speaker 3 (27:10):
Episodes until next time. Hoping you're living your best while
sleeping your best.
Speaker 4 (27:16):
Chasing Sleep is a production of Ruby Studios from iHeartMedia
in partnership with Mattress Firm. Our executive producer is Molly Sosha.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
This show was written and produced by sound up brands
Dave Beesing, Jason Jackson, and Michelle Rice.
Speaker 4 (27:29):
Chasing Sleep is hosted by Katie Lows and Adam Shapiro.
Speaker 1 (27:33):
That's Us. Thank you to our partners at Mattress Firm.
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