March 28, 2023 • 42 mins
Michelle and Dr. Debra are investigating mental health! Dr. Debra speaks on her career which allows her to evaluate the mental health of people who are incarcerated. She also talks about the importance of acknowledging men’s trauma and helping them heal. CHECK IN to this episode if you want to help the men in your life find healing!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. There are so many different
(00:21):
fields of expertise and jobs and certain spaces where someone
chooses to work in, and I am just so fascinated
with this particular area of expertise that our next guest
works in. This person is a leading forensic psychologist, trauma expert,
(00:44):
training professional, and author. She addresses diverse topics including post
traumatic stress disorder, multicultural therapeutic techniques, gang intervention, prison reform,
human trafficking, violence against women's substance abuse, relationships, parenting, and
mental health. Y'all, I'm excited about doctor Deborah Warner joining
(01:06):
us today. She's a professor in Los Angeles, I think,
but today she's joining us from Columbia University in New York.
She is everywhere, and she's often asked to be an
expert witness, psychological evaluator, and consultant soul. She's an expert
witness that is asked to testify on court cases. Y'all know,
(01:29):
my field or my major was criminal justice at one time,
and so I am just thrilled to be talking to
doctor Deborah Warner today. So please stay tuned. If you're
a crime junkie like me, stay listening. Welcome, Welcome to
another episode of Checking In. I'm so grateful for everybody
(01:51):
who downloads episodes. It seems like you're telling everybody about
Checking In, and we cannot do cannot even be in
a season three without y'all checking in. Today's guest. I'm
so excited. I'm literally about to If I had children,
they would probably say, you're embarrassing me, because you know
(02:14):
how you have parents that say, you know, when I
was growing up, I wanted to be an astronaut. I
wanted to be a doctor. So they start telling you
all the things that they did right, and I am
about to do the same thing with our next guest.
She is a leading for forensic psychologist, trauma expert, speaker,
and author of several titles. I mean, she's got an
(02:36):
upcoming conference that's about trauma and mental health and we
are going to get into that. But y'all, she's amazing. Okay,
she made me go put on a red lip. Y'all.
Welcome doctor Deborah Warner to Checking In. Adam Schelle, how
are you. I am just excited to do so I listen, doctor,
I am so glad to meet you. The good thing
(03:00):
about checking and we get to talk to and a
array of people who specialize and everything from trauma to
mental health. We even had Lorenz Tate and he's an
actor and so see y'all look her eyes got big.
She was like, wait a minute, Lorenz Taate. Yes, She's like,
why we how come we couldn't do a group chat?
(03:21):
You know? So this is what I'm about to say.
That could be embarrassing if I had children or anybody listening,
because somebody always got to tell you what they wanted
to be when they grew up. But doctor Warner. In college,
my major was criminal justice because I wanted to be
a forensic psychologist. No yes, yes, yes, yes, yes yes.
(03:43):
And to this day I watch all type of true
crime in real time. I don't like like recreated stuff
like say, for instance, one of the popular stories right
out right now is the Murdole trial. Right and so
I'm sitting there even as of last night, some new
(04:05):
stuff has come out about the sun and I'm like
trying to be doctor Deborah, trying to figure out what
would you say and how would you unpiece everything? So, yes,
I have to be the one to be like I
wanted to be like you, This is what I wanted
to do. Wow. Wow, that just makes me really happy
because you know part of what I do right now,
(04:26):
Since you're into piecing out crimes and all of that,
that's kind of what I do every day. Like I
go in the prisons and I actually piece together if
someone is still going to behold all the time that
they're released, and so I have to go back backtry
put all that information together. Sometimes it's like two pages,
and I have to figure out how that person ticked
and tell the court how they're going to proceed in life.
(04:47):
It is very, very fascinating. I think this year have
done at least three her cases like that. Really. Yeah, Well,
if you need an assistant to help stack papers and
put them in order and file everything for you, let
me know. I'd be glad to intern for you for
the summer. Oh my good, did you want to have
to enter with them? Listen? Well, I will intern for
(05:10):
you based where do you? Where are you based? Right now?
I am based in California, And right now I'm in
New York City and I am sitting you know, here
at Columbia talking to you. But I'm based in LA.
Really well, let me know when you get back to
California so I can help sax and papers. Okay, Oh,
I will let you know and we will we will
(05:31):
talk about this, but you have I will let you
live that out. That will be so much fun just
to do that. Please, please, please, So, doctor Warner, you
have been a speaker at TED Talk on male trauma. Yes,
and you even wrote a book titled His Story, Her Story,
A Survival Guide for Spouses of Male Survivors of Sexual Abuse.
(05:54):
So you guys that are listening, not only is she
so as you can see, you went from forensics to trauma,
specifically male trauma, because doctor Debra, there are times where
do you think a lot of it kind of goes
on talked about with men? Oh? Absolutely men, because men
(06:16):
don't disclose. Men will carry that secret for twenty thirty years,
and then when they do, they're afraid people gonna laugh
at them or not believe them. Right, The biggest thing
you can do is a man discloses to you is
shut up and let him tell you the whole story,
because if you don't listen and he's trying to, is
probably the first time he'll never tell anyone else again,
(06:36):
you would stopped that process and that journey of healing.
And so I always tell people that men are different
because they will not disclose it. When they do, you
have to let them have that space. Wow, how did
you get into forensics and trauma? How did that in
mental health? How did that come about? You know, you're
how God got eat two places? That's kind of what happened, right.
(06:58):
And I remember working in New York and being at
this place and then I saw these patients and it
was like this big, old early guy tearing a payphone
out of the wall. And I said, what kind of
patients are those? And they said, those are forensics patients.
I said, that's what I want to do the rest
of our life. And I just in crisis, it's just
how I just don't respond. I'm able to see a
situation and we'll navigate through it, but I'm really able
(07:20):
to understand people, right, And so I waited three years
for a program to come out so that I could
be a forensic psychologist. But now I mentor other people.
And one of the things I do is the Script
Conference every year for people and it's free to the community.
It's on male violence and trauma. And this year is
on diversity and inclusion and it's July twentieth and twenty first.
(07:41):
And what we do is that we let anyone come.
We have people from the FBI, we have wardens of prisons,
and we have ex gang members on the same panels. Wow. Yeah.
One year we did Black Lives Matter with the police. Wow.
You know, it made me want to ask when you
are talking about having to sit with inmates and go
(08:02):
over cold files or not even cold case files, but
files that are current. You know, as we're seeing in
the news right now, are you finding when you get
to talk with the men that are you finding a
lot of trauma that they had in childhood? Oh? Absolutely,
This word starts. It starts from childhood. But not just
sexual trauma. Like in my book this history or story,
(08:24):
it is environmental trauma. It's the fact that they're growing
up with that around them, especially people of color. My
book Barber and My Boys, that's all about environmental violence
and those people were traumatized from living in that environment
and causing them problems later in life. You never know
what's going to affect somebody, right, But when you have
everything coming at you from environment it's going to completely
(08:46):
change your worldview. And then you're a man and you're
told you gotta be strong, you have to be a
good dad, you have to be the top athlete, you
have to do all these things right. But when you
have to be everything and you're broken, can you imagine
you have a hard time when you can't live up
to expectations. So that's what causes a lot of the
problems with people emotionally, especially men in trauma. Okay, so
(09:10):
I'm assuming do you feel men kind of process or
display trauma different than women, and if so, what are
some of the signs? Well, manifests different, right, I mean,
women who are traumatized might go down the one path
and men might go down the same path. Right, But
it manifests differently because men are socialized differently. Women will
(09:31):
talk about it, you can. There's lots and lots of
resources from women in domestic violence shelters or women who
have been traumatized. They're not as many for men because
people don't believe men, or they say, suck it up
and be a mayor. Right, Yeah, so that's the problem
in our society. I want to ask you what type
of person tells a person to suck it up from
(09:53):
a psychologist point of view. Seriously, A very famous comedian
that was on a station actually when and someone was
asking him that question, and his response was that suck
it up in vehement. I don't say who it is,
they know, yes, And so I've heard that many many times.
(10:14):
Or they say they were lucky. If a female perpetrator
and the kids thirteen years old is sexually abusing them
and they're like thirty five, they'll say they're lucky. Do
you know that you just shaped their whole world and
how they see women and how they see other people,
and how they have wives and daughters. But they don't
realize they're lucky. I know we were talking about. I
(10:40):
mentioned your book, His Story, Her Story, A survival Guy
for spouses of male survivors of sexual abuse and trauma. Now,
if you are in a relationship with the men who
has suffered trauma, what does that look like in her relationship? Well,
my husband's are trauma's survivor. He's the one who encouraged
(11:01):
me to go down this path because he realized there
was something about me working with men who were traumatized.
Because I just sat one day, honestly, and I said,
what the heck is wrong with my husband? Like I
couldn't figure out, And I said, you know, they're just
like colleges. You don't want to shrink your husband. We
want to know this relationship does not follow other patterns, right,
And it doesn't follow other patterns because there's so many
(11:22):
safety issues that were broken. There are so many issues
of being dominant, but you're broken inside, so you don't
want to be seen as weak. There are so many
different things that and men, especially if you're supposed to
be the red owner and you're supposed to be the
person that is the head of the household, but you're
you're depressed and you have all these things inside. Right, Well,
you're men only have one emotion if they can show
(11:44):
in life, and that's anger. So they become angry, right,
and they yell or they do things like that, and
you're like, why is in one speed or the highway?
Why can't you have others? Because that is the only
acceptable one. So to say I'm hurting, to say I'm
depressed comes out as anger. It out of irritability. And
so a lot of times when I'm in the prison,
I get to tell those stories to the court now right,
(12:05):
and they're saying they're angry, they're violent. I said, no,
he's a trauma survivor, and let me tell you what
you need to do so that you can help him,
versus saying it to trauma survivor and he's a lost clause.
So even though I love my job and I get
to work with all these people and figure out if
they are going to re hurt society, I also get
to tell a story, and that story a lot of
times helps other people. I remember I was working on
(12:27):
this one case and it was a trauma survivor and
there's like, no, this has got stand person forever. And
I said, if he has the right things because of this,
especially if you get him away from his family, I
guarantee in time they'll be better. I'm not saying today,
I'm saying in life. Time will start to heal him
because now he's willing to talk. And that is the
(12:48):
key is to get to talk and get it open.
Women talk all the time. Men they can't do it
as much, so you have to find a way to
get in there. So you're saying that there are some
men that are in prison who can definitely be rehabilitated
simply by someone sitting there listening to him, which can
start his healing journey. Yes, now we all know that
(13:11):
unfortunately their healing journey does not bring back the person
that was harmed, right, No, that it doesn't bring them back,
or even if the person is still alive, they are
still they're going to have that lifelong memory of trauma
that was inflicted upon them by that person in prison
that you get to speak to. But are you finding
do you have like a success story or two where
(13:33):
you're like, because someone listened, they're on a better path.
Have they been released into the community, and how are
they doing? I how a few of us that made
me smile, and a lot of them, and I have
a lot of my voice from Barbara, my voice, their
success stories. I wrote them down. I got them to
help me help others understand by allowing me to write
(13:56):
down their five stories, My Niko, my Tommy, my Blue.
They come every year and they help me and my
Barbara from Barbara and my boys you know, and my mistreporter.
And they their stories are from being in there, from
attempted murder to being gang bangers to now Barbara, you know,
has a whole organization that helps young girls who are
(14:17):
in gangs. And they told me, you know, if you are,
we are a reflection of you because you allow us
to have a voice. And I said, none of them.
I am your heart and I'm able to tell that story.
And then now they have a platform, you know, because
they come to my conference. But I mean, those stories
make me happen, like being able to help in that
(14:37):
way and help my community like that, what sparked your
interest in this field? It's amazing, you know. I want
to do my neck of the woods. I want to
create change. I want to create change for the next
you know, society. I do have a map with people
and understanding them, you know, because that's the gift God
gave me. Right, So how can I use that for good?
(15:00):
Like you know, my son, I'm out here in New York.
I'm doing a social emotional learning program with kids in
acting and comedy right and I'm presenting at the Cosmic
Calling Club. Oh man, I wish you were here because
I invite you. People don't even understand how that work
that you're doing for actors, how important that is. But
that's a whole another question for later. Like yeah, okay,
(15:20):
well I'll go onto it briefly. By the way, there
are some actors who have suppressed feelings who can't seem
to I'm in one of them where they're like, get angry,
get angry, and I'm like, yeah, I can't get angry. Yeah,
but why there is a white to white. So it
takes the work that you're doing, doctor Devor to work
with actors to let them know, first of all, you're safe,
(15:42):
and maybe you need to get this out because the
thing that you're about to play is going to be
so organic. Yes, And that's the thing that I do
is I take that one thing we startain monologues, and
then I take that one thing, I say, okay, now
you link to it, and then what is that feeling
you're trying to convict? And then everybody does it with
the trainer so that the actors get to work with
(16:03):
the trainer on what they see. So it's like a
mirror process. And we're doing this with kids so that
later in life they don't get stuck with these emotions
they're not getting out, which is really great. And my
little son at six, he couldn't read, so I use
social emotional learning with him and he's written two bocks.
The little kid who couldn't read at six is now
(16:24):
a published author. And he made all these animals to
tell his story. And the latest one is Freddy Fox's
Freaky Fire and he talks about this and he has
these characters and it's just amazing. But what you can do,
Like you ask me why for that joy that I got? Yeah,
my little boy, you use the tools God gave you.
(16:45):
If you use what God gave you, you can do good. Right.
You just have to believe in yourself. You know, with
everything that we're seeing on social media, say, I have
this question about gaming, Oh yeah, are you finding people?
I guess the psychology behind why. Somebody says I want
to do this in real life, and I'm like, no,
(17:06):
this is just a game, because if you do it
in real life, you're gonna be in jail. You're you're
talking about like the gaming culture and then being able
to put crimes out. Yes, yes, okay, I actually work
in that area. And people don't realize that there are
underground games right on the black net that are actual
(17:28):
other things that are going on, right and so and
then just like you have, you know, snuff films, things
like that. There's a whole section of stuff that people
don't even realize it's out there. But then you have
the kids that are on the you know, they're doing
a twitch and they're doing all that. They're gaming and
they're just playing the game. But then you have in
all of these is what I've seen is you get
obsessed with this and you sit and you're sedentary, right,
(17:50):
and for some reason you're not engaging with the world,
and that's why you get sucked into this stuff and
you end up on the black Net and and all
that stuff because you are there's thing you're dealing with.
The video games is feeling for you that is just
not It's not what you need to be doing. And
I always tell people you don't go get help. I
used to use video games as therapy so that I
(18:10):
could tap into that person that was sitting there on
the couch like that. Yeah, because I said, well, that's
their world, let me figure out how I can get
in there. Listen, you know how many men would love
to say, if I need to play video games, I'm
going to therapy. All my teenagers would show up because
I knew it. All the thing is I'm talking about
(18:32):
grown men who's still playing games. Yeah, that's true, that's true.
Be like, honey, no, you know, go to therapy. You
know you get to play video games. Yes, yes, but
you know you preach, you reach your client where they're at. Yeah.
That was the other thing I did in the prisons too.
When I used to be in there, I used to
bring a boombox. You know, they've never got to have
(18:52):
all this music and in there sometimes, so I would
go in there, I bring my boombox. I said, give
me a list of songs, but you have to tell
me what that song. See, so they got to hear
all this music. Because I'm a therapist, I can bring
it in right, and so they have to hear it.
But then we had to talk about wow, which gets
them talking and expressing. Right. That's so good because there
(19:16):
are so many of I'm gonna say, us, we don't
know how to talk, we don't know how to express,
and there's so many reasons. And I'll never forget, you know,
reading things that say let your kids express themselves, you know,
because I grew up in a place where it was
don't know, you can't say anything because that's considered talking back.
(19:40):
But you don't realize you're suppressing their ability to express
for later, right. And and then you know, it's so
funny because I have my son and have my daughter,
and my mom would always say, you don't let him
saying it. I said, I'm gonna let him say whatever
he wants. And then I'm a practive and I'm gonna
be a parent. That's the difference is that I'm gonna
teach him how to talk, but I'm to teach him,
(20:00):
for example, right instead of me as a kid, my
response would be, you know, get the switch right. That's
not exactly my southern house, right, you know. So I'm like,
I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna I'm gonna parent
a different way, right. I remember kid was jumping on
the couch one day. He was like three years old.
He's jumping up on the couch and I was like, yeah,
(20:22):
let him do that, and I said, he's not hurting anything.
And when he cracks his head real stop. Okay. So
I hope my cousin Brittany is listening. She's a therapist
and she definitely believes in that, you know, and a
lot of people might say little jokes to her or
make you know, or say little smart comments of the
(20:42):
way that she is deciding to parent her child in
the way that she wasn't parented, or in the way
even like I said, that's my first cousin, in a
way that I wouldn't because you're used to a belt,
you're used to a switch, you know what I mean?
By the way, I'm sure you've seen that how that
manifest in a person's behavior later on. Yes, yes, that
(21:04):
makes it even worse than you have all these weird attachments, right,
you get disordanized attachments. You love and you hate your
viewser at the same time because they're your parent, but
get you hate them because they hit you, right, and
so then you start making that same attachment with all
these people. That's why you have broken marriages. It's why
there's divorces, that's why people can't connect to their kids
because they've done all that. And you know, one of
(21:25):
the things people don't get because in the black community
we talk about the switch, right, but that happened because
of history. Right, I'm not gonna get too deep, but
the difference is is that we picked that up because
we didn't want someone else to do it, because we
didn't want our child dead. So that's why we picked
it up. We didn't pick it up because that's what's
our nature. It was because it was either us or
(21:46):
someone else who didn't love our child. Doctor one, and
I have hurt that. I'm sure people listening have hurt it. Like,
if I don't beat my child, the police will, right,
somebody else will, so before let me disapline my child
at home so that no one else has to do it.
I have Yeah, you're right, I definitely have heard that,
and it is passed down. You have when I tell
(22:09):
you several areas of expertise, but there was an area
that's not talked about a lot, maybe in our world,
I'm sure obviously where you go as far as corporate
trauma workplace trauma, yes, and how this can affect one's help.
So what qualifies as workplace trauma? Oh my goodness, So
corporate trauma to have a course on, I listen to
(22:31):
love university on it too. But one of the things
the reason I made the course was because you know,
I used to be in the corporate world. You know,
I was like assistant acting dean for a while, Like
you know, I was the first full professor like forty
two like you know who look like me? At some
point and I realized I wasn't me. Does that make sense? Yeah?
(22:53):
And I was behaving in a way that fits certain
social norms, and I said, but what do I want
to do too? You know? And then I realized I
was like freaking out because I didn't have donuts one
day for a meeting, right, because you better have your donuts,
you said you were having. Yeah, yeah, you got to produce.
And that's traumatizing, right, But then you have where you
can't even go tell somebody how you're feeling. You can't
(23:13):
even express that because if you do, there's someone right
there to pick you off and take through place, right, right, Yeah,
that's traumatizing because you're never secure. You never get secure footing.
So one of the things I teach people is how
to find that secure footing, how to find your allies,
how to find mentors. Right, And I didn't have mentors,
(23:33):
and then I finally have really good mentors, and I learned,
I said, you you have there's certain things you do
in the corporate virus, certain things you don't, and then
when you're ready, leave on your own terms, because then
you leave being you. Yeah, that's so good. That's so good. Now,
y'all don't be going to work talking about some telling
the boss I'm leaving today. I listened to checking in
(23:56):
with Michelle and they told us that we can leave,
you know, but so you know, what should a person do,
because no one should be experienced. Well, people don't even
know that that's what they're doing, inflicting trauma. No, I'll
be full transparency. I was sitting in a counseling session
one year and I'm sitting in a session with someone
(24:18):
and they were telling the therapist something that I said,
and the therapist looked at me and said, you know,
this can be considered verbal abuse, And I said, no,
I know what I felt to have been verbally abuse.
I've been verbally abused, not in this relational But they
don't realize, like, no, it's not about the yes, the
(24:43):
tone in which you say something. I just thought it
was the volume and how a person can stand over
you and seem so threatening you know what I'm saying.
And so I think there are some I think even
some microaggressions in the workplace can be seen as trauma. Right, Yes,
if I'm hearing the that's where I was going. Microaggressions,
(25:03):
those little bitty things like people don't realize when you
say something like, you know, going into someone's office, right,
and you hand them a document you did and then
they say to you, oh, did someone help you with this?
It's so well written? What does that say? You're giving
uncompla that you're not You're saying you're not smart enough
(25:24):
to do it on your own. That's a microaggression. So
guess what happens? You said that? Well, Sally overhears it.
She goes and says, oh, did you hear what they said?
Now you've created an environment where this person is seeing
like they can't write and they don't understand what happened.
And then the trauma continues. It starts going because people
don't realize what comes out of their mouth. People here,
(25:46):
it goes in their heart. That's the key. It goes
in their heart, and then people believe it. Doctor Deborah, Wow,
I hope that whoever is listening. I feel like you're triggered,
and hopefully you can just sit and breathe and me
and doctor Deborah can sit here and tell you you
don't deserve that. No, you know what I mean, And
(26:08):
so just kind of breathe. And how many people doctor
have to deal with trauma at the workplace because they
meet this job. It's like I can't quit. I have
the family, or a lot of people stay on the
job and are experiencing trauma on the job because that's
where they get the insurance and benefits, right, And they
got the baby at home, right, they got the grandma,
(26:31):
or they're taking care of their mom. But those are
those generational layers that people don't realize bring someone in
the workplace. A lot of time now I do consulting,
especially with female executives, and I talk about the layers
because they don't realize that onion is what's keeping them
in that job because they may not be happy because
you know, I have elderly parents, they say, or my
kids going to college, or I'm a single mom, or
(26:54):
I've made partner and I worked really hard, But are
you happy? Oh my god, that's not making you right.
It's the layers that I go through with them. This
first of all, working with female executives, that can be
a whole other or another yes, I'm gonna say another,
a whole nother masterclass that I don't know if you
(27:14):
have ever done, Like just for female executives because of
the slack they get, the flat they get, the like
you said, the microaggression too, you know, just on females
period in the workplace, it's traumatic. Let's talk about corporate
America regarding the pandemic and how tons of people She's like,
(27:37):
what corporate America the pandemic? There ain't nobody at work
no more. Well, well, it's because they've been doing the
term quiet quitting, you know. So there's there's so many terms.
There's a new term called soft life, but that's new
because it's like what I think I want to soft
life too. But anyway, we got quiet quitting, and there's
(27:58):
so many people who quit because because they no longer
wanted to go above and beyond. They only wanted to
do the work that they were paid for. And there
is even a push for four day work weeks that
are trending. What do you use foresee as the new
corporate climate? If workers aren't heard what I think's gonna
happen or what right corporate's gonna predict to happen? Right,
(28:24):
you're the expert, So okay, I'll give you. I'll give
you two Sunarians Okay, First of all, I think nobody's
gonna go back to work. They love this. The pandemic
has caused people to see things differently. People in Europe
do this all the time, right, and they're able to
balance and do things. I mean people like being in
their sweatpants and just five minutes before going the right
(28:45):
so you know everybody has done it so because nobody
knows there right. So so but I got on my
full outfit. I'm matching from I'm matching. I don't have
on just sweats. I'm matching well. But but this is
what people are doing, right, and so they're they're gonna
push back. The problem is corporations have build these sky
(29:09):
rides offices. They have all these people and no one's
in them. They are in New York. You're in New
York as we speak, right in the mindset, I have
to see you to be working. But there are so
many skyscrapers being build office spaces, like, what are they
going to do? I mean, how many apartments can you have? Right?
(29:30):
So there's gonna be a shift in realistic and what
is that shift going to look like? Are they going
to force people to come to work? So they don't
waste their money big organizations. Maybe not. Are we gonna
have a shift in hotels? Are we gonna have a
shift in leisure spaces or spaces people can rent for
office space, or are we gonna have a shift and
looking at how we redirect to work? Hey, you you
(29:51):
know what this This used to be an office space
and we're gonna revamp this to be a space where
you can work a plate. Okay, So I think that
there's gonna be a for instance coming out, but there
are gonna be those other ones more, you know that
are gonna say hey, we want to see you working
and bring people back in the workplace. And there are
some jobs that you have to physically be there. Yeah,
but if not, I see a change. I see a
(30:13):
definite change in one time. Do you feel that people
being in the workspace kind of keeps workplace synergy and
energy good? Now, I'm not saying every day, but if
you're if I'm thinking like if somebody's in the workplace
for like a day, everybody coming to work for a
day or two, I would think that that's okay. Because
I'm the type of person as far as work is concerned,
(30:35):
I'm in the place where I'm doing a lot of
virtual meetings and I'm like, man, I wish I could
be in the office with you, because I don't know,
it's something cool about it. There are a lot of
people that I work with that want to go in,
and a lot of the organizations that I consult with
let those people come in. And what they do is
(30:57):
they have sign ups for offices, so you've actually the
same office every day for the next year if you
want to. Right. But those people are more productive. Then
they have the other people who say, they say, you
can work wherever you want as long as you stay
in the US, okay, And so then they give them
the equipment. Right. But there are certain people that cannot
handle being at home, and so they recognize that because
(31:18):
there is an energy to going and talking at the
water cooler or you know, bringing people you know in
your office and hashing things out right, you know. So
it depends on the personality, depends on the task that
they're doing. Now, men, personally, I think they're more productive
at home because I really like lunches people, and I
tend to wanders. So you're better at home, okay, and listen,
(31:41):
And I think that the pandemic, there needed to be
some shifts made, and so sometimes there there are aspects
of the pandemic that were for a cleansing in all
kinds of ways. But at the same time, didn't we
hate all the lives that were lost in the families
who I grieve the loss of a loved one who
went into the hospital, Oh yeah and didn't come back,
(32:06):
you know, Oh my god, there's so many. You know.
What's interesting, My husband finally got COVID like recently, which
is sad, right, and he did it over Christmas and
he went blind. He lost his sight, yes, no wonder
the first self is And so we kind of create
a family car bowl and my daughter was helped driving
him around and like he woke up and his sight
(32:28):
was like negative two thousand are huge? Serious? How is
it right now? Now? It's change. He can drive. He's
probably at negative fifty right now. But you can drive
with like forty five something and one eye, Like you
know what you were saying, And it don't quote. We
went back to listening, but he was you know, it
(32:49):
really did affect him and and and I can't imagine
how he lost his sight, which is really crippling. But
imagine losing a life, losing a loved one like you
losing the life of a loved one, but and the eyesight,
going to sleep being able to see, but waking up blind.
How traumatic is that? Oh, he handle it so well,
(33:12):
but he's already a traumatized person. Right, So you got
a trauma who's having another trauma, you know, and there's
nothing I can say. There's nothing I can say. And
I remember looking at him and he is having the
hardest time one day. I've never been looking at him,
and I was holding his hand. We're lying there, and
I said, I know this is hard. I get it.
(33:32):
I don't even know what you're going through because I
can't tell you. I've never been blind. Right, Yeah, we
gotta make a plan because you have too much life
left and you're gonna wasted if you stay like this. Now, doctor,
here we go. This is some good talking for a
person that's going through trauma. You said something so beautiful.
I'm sorry. I don't know what it's like to be blind,
(33:53):
but I can help you. Let's make a plan. Right. So,
going back to how we treat people who have some
compounded trauma, not just oh I fell off a bike,
and skin my knee and that was traumatic. Because listen,
as I'm learning, doctor Debra, again, I honor you as
the expert. I've been learning that trauma just isn't like
(34:16):
seeing an open, bloody wound. You know. Trauma is like
you said, you could fall off a bike unexpectedly and
that's traumatic. Or you get news, you read a text
and I don't know, to me, this is trauma. What
if you what if your boyfriend done sent you a
(34:36):
text that he was trying to send to somebody else,
that's traumatic. Yes, it is. That is a different type
of trauma. Yeah, because trauma is that something that is blindsided,
something you didn't expect. Is that it's not the definition.
But sometimes trauma and stuff you don't expect. So if
(34:57):
you're looking at it like like post traumatic stresses or
something like that, right, first, you have to have an event,
right and that event has to cause you to feel
like you're in danger or your life is threatened, but
you have to perceive it. Okay, So going back to
your text message, I perceive this is dangerous. My life
is threatened. My livelihood has now changed because man, that's
(35:20):
a picture I shouldn't the gut or that's a text.
I shouldn't what's gonna happen to my family? What's gonna
happen in my life? Now? Do you see where that's trauma? Wow? Yeah,
So it's how you define it. I always tell people that, right,
And then there's symptoms that go with it, like you
have flashbacks, you get scared, you get anxious, heart heart,
heart pounds, you can't sleep. So that's why I remever.
(35:43):
I want someone else to find it because I was like,
you know what, Like you said something bloody, but imagine
you walk over and it's a bloody leg that yeah, right,
and that is gonna stick with you and you don't
even know. And trauma is one of those things that
creeps because if you don't talk about it, it creeps.
It swells, and then it comes out in odd ways
like sexually acting out, physically acting out, substance abuse, hitting people,
(36:06):
little kids getting anxious. You ever seen little kids to
pull out their hair? Yes? Pulling out hair, eyebrow? Yes, Yes,
that's all trauma you know that gets My daughter? I
love her. She wrote a cook We wrote a cookbook
because she was a foster kid. But the first time
I met her, she would carry everything in everything. She
(36:29):
go with this backpack and I was like, baby, you
don't have to do that. And it took years. Now
she has a little clutch back. I'm so brow So
I said, okay, we're gonna do something bad room, get
some coach, because yes, you can't handle this little plastic lutch.
But yes, yes, yes, yes, how it got Oh my gosh,
(36:49):
so sweet, so sweet for you to be in the
field that she loved, but to still have a heart
that seems to be able to feel in your field? Right?
How how do you maintain a heart that can feel? Well,
that's all God, I will tell you that, like, this
is what God wanted me to do. It's what he
(37:10):
made me to do, and that's all I know how
to do. I mean, I'd love to be a jazz
and blues singer. That's where you can help me head
and I can let okay, okay, I'd love to be
the assistant intern, y'all if y'all in here. Earlier I
told her, if you're just tuning in, I want to
be her intern for the summer because she works in
the field that I dreamed to be in. Y'all, friends, Yes,
(37:33):
but no that I could be your little singing project.
But I can't sing, so it ain't gonna go nowhere. Well,
we gotta see because maybe there is something in you
that you don't know. You're into acting, maybe we can
pull some of that out. You teach people, you know,
how to it's all about the emotions that is friend
and how you're able to emote. You know that because
you teach that as well. So yeah, well you know
(37:56):
what's interesting is that you know, one of the things
I say is everybody is listening to love right, And
they're like, what does that mean? Well, you can hear
me talking. People hear me talking blah blah blah, but
are you listening to me? And then when you hear
my words, how do you respond? And if you always
respond from a place of love, there's nothing that can
(38:16):
come out of your mouth but something that someone can
hear or wants to hear because you're listening, taking it
in and then responding with love. So that's kind of
how I do this. I always listen and say I'm
gonna respond with love. And if I think, oh my god,
that wasn't I will say, I am so sorry, but
that wasn't something. Wow, Yeah, you have been so amazing
(38:39):
and so intriguing. You know when I ask you, how
do you still have a heart that feels Because there
are some people that have some hard jobs, yeah, therapists, cops,
the people in certain leadership roles where you have to
deal with a lot of people and sometimes your heart
can get hardened, right because of everything that you see,
(39:00):
Or you have to make certain split second decisions where
you can't have emotions. You have to go buy facts
and logic. But it's been a joy sitting here with
you today. If you can, can you tell us about
this upcoming project and conference that I'm so excited that
you get to share with us. Yes, So I have
(39:20):
the Script Conference coming up on July twenty and twenty
first the California Endownment the Script Conference dot com, or
they can just go to my website and there's a
tab doctor Deborah Warner dot net Doctor Deborah Warner dot net.
I also have a show coming out in the CBS
UK called Murder Find the Truth and I get to
talk about crimes, So look for that if you If
(39:41):
you go on my website or find me on Instagram,
I'll have a link tree. I'll have a link right
to it when it comes out. It's gonna come out, Meg,
and you'll get to see all the stuff I'm talking about.
You get to see, y'all. I'm so excited. So SCRIPT
is Summit on Community Resilience, Intervention, Prevention and Training. That's
what SCRIPT means. And so you can go to the
(40:04):
scriptconference dot com. This is going to be absolutely fabulous.
And your website again, your personal website, well, doctor Deborah
Warner dot net. Okay, okay, we are so excited, doctor Deborah.
You've been a joy. We covered a lot of ground.
(40:25):
I feel like you can give a great word of
encouragement to someone who feels like I've had too much
trauma in my life. There's no way I can get
better and have a great quality of life. What would
you say, Oh my goodness, that you're valued, that you're loved,
and that you can do anything. So good, doctor Deborah.
(40:49):
Thank you so much, y'all. She's sitting at Columbia University
right now in New York and she's got to get
out of here. But she's been such a joy, doctor Deborah.
Thank you for checking in. Oh thank you for having me. Yes,
man will see you again. Oh my gosh, how awesome
was this? Oh, this was so great, y'all. I promise
(41:10):
you you will see me in La spending at least
a day with her, Like it's no joke. I'm so
sincere because you guys, I never got the chance to
shadow the county coroner, because I don't think if y'all
didn't read my book, you gotta read it because it
tells you of a big choice that I had to
(41:30):
make as it related to Destiny's Child or pursuing another field.
I'm not gonna say too much. You gotta get my
book checking in, or if you already know what it was,
go ahead and DM me and tell me what it was,
all right. So any who, I just love y'all, and
I hope that you are continuing to do well. It's
(41:51):
getting warmer out, you know what I'm saying. Stay well
and get some sunshine, all right, Bye? Bye? I love you,
And again, you already know what you're gonna do. There's
nothing you can do about it, all right. I always
want you to know you're loved. Checking In with Michelle
(42:22):
Williams is a production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect.
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio, app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. There are so many different
(00:21):
fields of expertise and jobs and certain spaces where someone
chooses to work in, and I am just so fascinated
with this particular area of expertise that our next guest
works in. This person is a leading forensic psychologist, trauma expert,
(00:44):
training professional, and author. She addresses diverse topics including post
traumatic stress disorder, multicultural therapeutic techniques, gang intervention, prison reform,
human trafficking, violence against women's substance abuse, relationships, parenting, and
mental health. Y'all, I'm excited about doctor Deborah Warner joining
(01:06):
us today. She's a professor in Los Angeles, I think,
but today she's joining us from Columbia University in New York.
She is everywhere, and she's often asked to be an
expert witness, psychological evaluator, and consultant soul. She's an expert
witness that is asked to testify on court cases. Y'all know,
(01:29):
my field or my major was criminal justice at one time,
and so I am just thrilled to be talking to
doctor Deborah Warner today. So please stay tuned. If you're
a crime junkie like me, stay listening. Welcome, Welcome to
another episode of Checking In. I'm so grateful for everybody
(01:51):
who downloads episodes. It seems like you're telling everybody about
Checking In, and we cannot do cannot even be in
a season three without y'all checking in. Today's guest. I'm
so excited. I'm literally about to If I had children,
they would probably say, you're embarrassing me, because you know
(02:14):
how you have parents that say, you know, when I
was growing up, I wanted to be an astronaut. I
wanted to be a doctor. So they start telling you
all the things that they did right, and I am
about to do the same thing with our next guest.
She is a leading for forensic psychologist, trauma expert, speaker,
and author of several titles. I mean, she's got an
(02:36):
upcoming conference that's about trauma and mental health and we
are going to get into that. But y'all, she's amazing. Okay,
she made me go put on a red lip. Y'all.
Welcome doctor Deborah Warner to Checking In. Adam Schelle, how
are you. I am just excited to do so I listen, doctor,
I am so glad to meet you. The good thing
(03:00):
about checking and we get to talk to and a
array of people who specialize and everything from trauma to
mental health. We even had Lorenz Tate and he's an
actor and so see y'all look her eyes got big.
She was like, wait a minute, Lorenz Taate. Yes, She's like,
why we how come we couldn't do a group chat?
(03:21):
You know? So this is what I'm about to say.
That could be embarrassing if I had children or anybody listening,
because somebody always got to tell you what they wanted
to be when they grew up. But doctor Warner. In college,
my major was criminal justice because I wanted to be
a forensic psychologist. No yes, yes, yes, yes, yes yes.
(03:43):
And to this day I watch all type of true
crime in real time. I don't like like recreated stuff
like say, for instance, one of the popular stories right
out right now is the Murdole trial. Right and so
I'm sitting there even as of last night, some new
(04:05):
stuff has come out about the sun and I'm like
trying to be doctor Deborah, trying to figure out what
would you say and how would you unpiece everything? So, yes,
I have to be the one to be like I
wanted to be like you, This is what I wanted
to do. Wow. Wow, that just makes me really happy
because you know part of what I do right now,
(04:26):
Since you're into piecing out crimes and all of that,
that's kind of what I do every day. Like I
go in the prisons and I actually piece together if
someone is still going to behold all the time that
they're released, and so I have to go back backtry
put all that information together. Sometimes it's like two pages,
and I have to figure out how that person ticked
and tell the court how they're going to proceed in life.
(04:47):
It is very, very fascinating. I think this year have
done at least three her cases like that. Really. Yeah, Well,
if you need an assistant to help stack papers and
put them in order and file everything for you, let
me know. I'd be glad to intern for you for
the summer. Oh my good, did you want to have
to enter with them? Listen? Well, I will intern for
(05:10):
you based where do you? Where are you based? Right now?
I am based in California, And right now I'm in
New York City and I am sitting you know, here
at Columbia talking to you. But I'm based in LA.
Really well, let me know when you get back to
California so I can help sax and papers. Okay, Oh,
I will let you know and we will we will
(05:31):
talk about this, but you have I will let you
live that out. That will be so much fun just
to do that. Please, please, please, So, doctor Warner, you
have been a speaker at TED Talk on male trauma. Yes,
and you even wrote a book titled His Story, Her Story,
A Survival Guide for Spouses of Male Survivors of Sexual Abuse.
(05:54):
So you guys that are listening, not only is she
so as you can see, you went from forensics to trauma,
specifically male trauma, because doctor Debra, there are times where
do you think a lot of it kind of goes
on talked about with men? Oh? Absolutely men, because men
(06:16):
don't disclose. Men will carry that secret for twenty thirty years,
and then when they do, they're afraid people gonna laugh
at them or not believe them. Right, The biggest thing
you can do is a man discloses to you is
shut up and let him tell you the whole story,
because if you don't listen and he's trying to, is
probably the first time he'll never tell anyone else again,
(06:36):
you would stopped that process and that journey of healing.
And so I always tell people that men are different
because they will not disclose it. When they do, you
have to let them have that space. Wow, how did
you get into forensics and trauma? How did that in
mental health? How did that come about? You know, you're
how God got eat two places? That's kind of what happened, right.
(06:58):
And I remember working in New York and being at
this place and then I saw these patients and it
was like this big, old early guy tearing a payphone
out of the wall. And I said, what kind of
patients are those? And they said, those are forensics patients.
I said, that's what I want to do the rest
of our life. And I just in crisis, it's just
how I just don't respond. I'm able to see a
situation and we'll navigate through it, but I'm really able
(07:20):
to understand people, right, And so I waited three years
for a program to come out so that I could
be a forensic psychologist. But now I mentor other people.
And one of the things I do is the Script
Conference every year for people and it's free to the community.
It's on male violence and trauma. And this year is
on diversity and inclusion and it's July twentieth and twenty first.
(07:41):
And what we do is that we let anyone come.
We have people from the FBI, we have wardens of prisons,
and we have ex gang members on the same panels. Wow. Yeah.
One year we did Black Lives Matter with the police. Wow.
You know, it made me want to ask when you
are talking about having to sit with inmates and go
(08:02):
over cold files or not even cold case files, but
files that are current. You know, as we're seeing in
the news right now, are you finding when you get
to talk with the men that are you finding a
lot of trauma that they had in childhood? Oh? Absolutely,
This word starts. It starts from childhood. But not just
sexual trauma. Like in my book this history or story,
(08:24):
it is environmental trauma. It's the fact that they're growing
up with that around them, especially people of color. My
book Barber and My Boys, that's all about environmental violence
and those people were traumatized from living in that environment
and causing them problems later in life. You never know
what's going to affect somebody, right, But when you have
everything coming at you from environment it's going to completely
(08:46):
change your worldview. And then you're a man and you're
told you gotta be strong, you have to be a
good dad, you have to be the top athlete, you
have to do all these things right. But when you
have to be everything and you're broken, can you imagine
you have a hard time when you can't live up
to expectations. So that's what causes a lot of the
problems with people emotionally, especially men in trauma. Okay, so
(09:10):
I'm assuming do you feel men kind of process or
display trauma different than women, and if so, what are
some of the signs? Well, manifests different, right, I mean,
women who are traumatized might go down the one path
and men might go down the same path. Right, But
it manifests differently because men are socialized differently. Women will
(09:31):
talk about it, you can. There's lots and lots of
resources from women in domestic violence shelters or women who
have been traumatized. They're not as many for men because
people don't believe men, or they say, suck it up
and be a mayor. Right, Yeah, so that's the problem
in our society. I want to ask you what type
of person tells a person to suck it up from
(09:53):
a psychologist point of view. Seriously, A very famous comedian
that was on a station actually when and someone was
asking him that question, and his response was that suck
it up in vehement. I don't say who it is,
they know, yes, And so I've heard that many many times.
(10:14):
Or they say they were lucky. If a female perpetrator
and the kids thirteen years old is sexually abusing them
and they're like thirty five, they'll say they're lucky. Do
you know that you just shaped their whole world and
how they see women and how they see other people,
and how they have wives and daughters. But they don't
realize they're lucky. I know we were talking about. I
(10:40):
mentioned your book, His Story, Her Story, A survival Guy
for spouses of male survivors of sexual abuse and trauma. Now,
if you are in a relationship with the men who
has suffered trauma, what does that look like in her relationship? Well,
my husband's are trauma's survivor. He's the one who encouraged
(11:01):
me to go down this path because he realized there
was something about me working with men who were traumatized.
Because I just sat one day, honestly, and I said,
what the heck is wrong with my husband? Like I
couldn't figure out, And I said, you know, they're just
like colleges. You don't want to shrink your husband. We
want to know this relationship does not follow other patterns, right,
And it doesn't follow other patterns because there's so many
(11:22):
safety issues that were broken. There are so many issues
of being dominant, but you're broken inside, so you don't
want to be seen as weak. There are so many
different things that and men, especially if you're supposed to
be the red owner and you're supposed to be the
person that is the head of the household, but you're
you're depressed and you have all these things inside. Right, Well,
you're men only have one emotion if they can show
(11:44):
in life, and that's anger. So they become angry, right,
and they yell or they do things like that, and
you're like, why is in one speed or the highway?
Why can't you have others? Because that is the only
acceptable one. So to say I'm hurting, to say I'm
depressed comes out as anger. It out of irritability. And
so a lot of times when I'm in the prison,
I get to tell those stories to the court now right,
(12:05):
and they're saying they're angry, they're violent. I said, no,
he's a trauma survivor, and let me tell you what
you need to do so that you can help him,
versus saying it to trauma survivor and he's a lost clause.
So even though I love my job and I get
to work with all these people and figure out if
they are going to re hurt society, I also get
to tell a story, and that story a lot of
times helps other people. I remember I was working on
(12:27):
this one case and it was a trauma survivor and
there's like, no, this has got stand person forever. And
I said, if he has the right things because of this,
especially if you get him away from his family, I
guarantee in time they'll be better. I'm not saying today,
I'm saying in life. Time will start to heal him
because now he's willing to talk. And that is the
(12:48):
key is to get to talk and get it open.
Women talk all the time. Men they can't do it
as much, so you have to find a way to
get in there. So you're saying that there are some
men that are in prison who can definitely be rehabilitated
simply by someone sitting there listening to him, which can
start his healing journey. Yes, now we all know that
(13:11):
unfortunately their healing journey does not bring back the person
that was harmed, right, No, that it doesn't bring them back,
or even if the person is still alive, they are
still they're going to have that lifelong memory of trauma
that was inflicted upon them by that person in prison
that you get to speak to. But are you finding
do you have like a success story or two where
(13:33):
you're like, because someone listened, they're on a better path.
Have they been released into the community, and how are
they doing? I how a few of us that made
me smile, and a lot of them, and I have
a lot of my voice from Barbara, my voice, their
success stories. I wrote them down. I got them to
help me help others understand by allowing me to write
(13:56):
down their five stories, My Niko, my Tommy, my Blue.
They come every year and they help me and my
Barbara from Barbara and my boys you know, and my mistreporter.
And they their stories are from being in there, from
attempted murder to being gang bangers to now Barbara, you know,
has a whole organization that helps young girls who are
(14:17):
in gangs. And they told me, you know, if you are,
we are a reflection of you because you allow us
to have a voice. And I said, none of them.
I am your heart and I'm able to tell that story.
And then now they have a platform, you know, because
they come to my conference. But I mean, those stories
make me happen, like being able to help in that
(14:37):
way and help my community like that, what sparked your
interest in this field? It's amazing, you know. I want
to do my neck of the woods. I want to
create change. I want to create change for the next
you know, society. I do have a map with people
and understanding them, you know, because that's the gift God
gave me. Right, So how can I use that for good?
(15:00):
Like you know, my son, I'm out here in New York.
I'm doing a social emotional learning program with kids in
acting and comedy right and I'm presenting at the Cosmic
Calling Club. Oh man, I wish you were here because
I invite you. People don't even understand how that work
that you're doing for actors, how important that is. But
that's a whole another question for later. Like yeah, okay,
(15:20):
well I'll go onto it briefly. By the way, there
are some actors who have suppressed feelings who can't seem
to I'm in one of them where they're like, get angry,
get angry, and I'm like, yeah, I can't get angry. Yeah,
but why there is a white to white. So it
takes the work that you're doing, doctor Devor to work
with actors to let them know, first of all, you're safe,
(15:42):
and maybe you need to get this out because the
thing that you're about to play is going to be
so organic. Yes, And that's the thing that I do
is I take that one thing we startain monologues, and
then I take that one thing, I say, okay, now
you link to it, and then what is that feeling
you're trying to convict? And then everybody does it with
the trainer so that the actors get to work with
(16:03):
the trainer on what they see. So it's like a
mirror process. And we're doing this with kids so that
later in life they don't get stuck with these emotions
they're not getting out, which is really great. And my
little son at six, he couldn't read, so I use
social emotional learning with him and he's written two bocks.
The little kid who couldn't read at six is now
(16:24):
a published author. And he made all these animals to
tell his story. And the latest one is Freddy Fox's
Freaky Fire and he talks about this and he has
these characters and it's just amazing. But what you can do,
Like you ask me why for that joy that I got? Yeah,
my little boy, you use the tools God gave you.
(16:45):
If you use what God gave you, you can do good. Right.
You just have to believe in yourself. You know, with
everything that we're seeing on social media, say, I have
this question about gaming, Oh yeah, are you finding people?
I guess the psychology behind why. Somebody says I want
to do this in real life, and I'm like, no,
(17:06):
this is just a game, because if you do it
in real life, you're gonna be in jail. You're you're
talking about like the gaming culture and then being able
to put crimes out. Yes, yes, okay, I actually work
in that area. And people don't realize that there are
underground games right on the black net that are actual
(17:28):
other things that are going on, right and so and
then just like you have, you know, snuff films, things
like that. There's a whole section of stuff that people
don't even realize it's out there. But then you have
the kids that are on the you know, they're doing
a twitch and they're doing all that. They're gaming and
they're just playing the game. But then you have in
all of these is what I've seen is you get
obsessed with this and you sit and you're sedentary, right,
(17:50):
and for some reason you're not engaging with the world,
and that's why you get sucked into this stuff and
you end up on the black Net and and all
that stuff because you are there's thing you're dealing with.
The video games is feeling for you that is just
not It's not what you need to be doing. And
I always tell people you don't go get help. I
used to use video games as therapy so that I
(18:10):
could tap into that person that was sitting there on
the couch like that. Yeah, because I said, well, that's
their world, let me figure out how I can get
in there. Listen, you know how many men would love
to say, if I need to play video games, I'm
going to therapy. All my teenagers would show up because
I knew it. All the thing is I'm talking about
(18:32):
grown men who's still playing games. Yeah, that's true, that's true.
Be like, honey, no, you know, go to therapy. You
know you get to play video games. Yes, yes, but
you know you preach, you reach your client where they're at. Yeah.
That was the other thing I did in the prisons too.
When I used to be in there, I used to
bring a boombox. You know, they've never got to have
(18:52):
all this music and in there sometimes, so I would
go in there, I bring my boombox. I said, give
me a list of songs, but you have to tell
me what that song. See, so they got to hear
all this music. Because I'm a therapist, I can bring
it in right, and so they have to hear it.
But then we had to talk about wow, which gets
them talking and expressing. Right. That's so good because there
(19:16):
are so many of I'm gonna say, us, we don't
know how to talk, we don't know how to express,
and there's so many reasons. And I'll never forget, you know,
reading things that say let your kids express themselves, you know,
because I grew up in a place where it was
don't know, you can't say anything because that's considered talking back.
(19:40):
But you don't realize you're suppressing their ability to express
for later, right. And and then you know, it's so
funny because I have my son and have my daughter,
and my mom would always say, you don't let him
saying it. I said, I'm gonna let him say whatever
he wants. And then I'm a practive and I'm gonna
be a parent. That's the difference is that I'm gonna
teach him how to talk, but I'm to teach him,
(20:00):
for example, right instead of me as a kid, my
response would be, you know, get the switch right. That's
not exactly my southern house, right, you know. So I'm like,
I'm not gonna do that. I'm gonna I'm gonna parent
a different way, right. I remember kid was jumping on
the couch one day. He was like three years old.
He's jumping up on the couch and I was like, yeah,
(20:22):
let him do that, and I said, he's not hurting anything.
And when he cracks his head real stop. Okay. So
I hope my cousin Brittany is listening. She's a therapist
and she definitely believes in that, you know, and a
lot of people might say little jokes to her or
make you know, or say little smart comments of the
(20:42):
way that she is deciding to parent her child in
the way that she wasn't parented, or in the way
even like I said, that's my first cousin, in a
way that I wouldn't because you're used to a belt,
you're used to a switch, you know what I mean?
By the way, I'm sure you've seen that how that
manifest in a person's behavior later on. Yes, yes, that
(21:04):
makes it even worse than you have all these weird attachments, right,
you get disordanized attachments. You love and you hate your
viewser at the same time because they're your parent, but
get you hate them because they hit you, right, and
so then you start making that same attachment with all
these people. That's why you have broken marriages. It's why
there's divorces, that's why people can't connect to their kids
because they've done all that. And you know, one of
(21:25):
the things people don't get because in the black community
we talk about the switch, right, but that happened because
of history. Right, I'm not gonna get too deep, but
the difference is is that we picked that up because
we didn't want someone else to do it, because we
didn't want our child dead. So that's why we picked
it up. We didn't pick it up because that's what's
our nature. It was because it was either us or
(21:46):
someone else who didn't love our child. Doctor one, and
I have hurt that. I'm sure people listening have hurt it. Like,
if I don't beat my child, the police will, right,
somebody else will, so before let me disapline my child
at home so that no one else has to do it.
I have Yeah, you're right, I definitely have heard that,
and it is passed down. You have when I tell
(22:09):
you several areas of expertise, but there was an area
that's not talked about a lot, maybe in our world,
I'm sure obviously where you go as far as corporate
trauma workplace trauma, yes, and how this can affect one's help.
So what qualifies as workplace trauma? Oh my goodness, So
corporate trauma to have a course on, I listen to
(22:31):
love university on it too. But one of the things
the reason I made the course was because you know,
I used to be in the corporate world. You know,
I was like assistant acting dean for a while, Like
you know, I was the first full professor like forty
two like you know who look like me? At some
point and I realized I wasn't me. Does that make sense? Yeah?
(22:53):
And I was behaving in a way that fits certain
social norms, and I said, but what do I want
to do too? You know? And then I realized I
was like freaking out because I didn't have donuts one
day for a meeting, right, because you better have your donuts,
you said you were having. Yeah, yeah, you got to produce.
And that's traumatizing, right, But then you have where you
can't even go tell somebody how you're feeling. You can't
(23:13):
even express that because if you do, there's someone right
there to pick you off and take through place, right, right, Yeah,
that's traumatizing because you're never secure. You never get secure footing.
So one of the things I teach people is how
to find that secure footing, how to find your allies,
how to find mentors. Right, And I didn't have mentors,
(23:33):
and then I finally have really good mentors, and I learned,
I said, you you have there's certain things you do
in the corporate virus, certain things you don't, and then
when you're ready, leave on your own terms, because then
you leave being you. Yeah, that's so good. That's so good. Now,
y'all don't be going to work talking about some telling
the boss I'm leaving today. I listened to checking in
(23:56):
with Michelle and they told us that we can leave,
you know, but so you know, what should a person do,
because no one should be experienced. Well, people don't even
know that that's what they're doing, inflicting trauma. No, I'll
be full transparency. I was sitting in a counseling session
one year and I'm sitting in a session with someone
(24:18):
and they were telling the therapist something that I said,
and the therapist looked at me and said, you know,
this can be considered verbal abuse, And I said, no,
I know what I felt to have been verbally abuse.
I've been verbally abused, not in this relational But they
don't realize, like, no, it's not about the yes, the
(24:43):
tone in which you say something. I just thought it
was the volume and how a person can stand over
you and seem so threatening you know what I'm saying.
And so I think there are some I think even
some microaggressions in the workplace can be seen as trauma. Right, Yes,
if I'm hearing the that's where I was going. Microaggressions,
(25:03):
those little bitty things like people don't realize when you
say something like, you know, going into someone's office, right,
and you hand them a document you did and then
they say to you, oh, did someone help you with this?
It's so well written? What does that say? You're giving
uncompla that you're not You're saying you're not smart enough
(25:24):
to do it on your own. That's a microaggression. So
guess what happens? You said that? Well, Sally overhears it.
She goes and says, oh, did you hear what they said?
Now you've created an environment where this person is seeing
like they can't write and they don't understand what happened.
And then the trauma continues. It starts going because people
don't realize what comes out of their mouth. People here,
(25:46):
it goes in their heart. That's the key. It goes
in their heart, and then people believe it. Doctor Deborah, Wow,
I hope that whoever is listening. I feel like you're triggered,
and hopefully you can just sit and breathe and me
and doctor Deborah can sit here and tell you you
don't deserve that. No, you know what I mean, And
(26:08):
so just kind of breathe. And how many people doctor
have to deal with trauma at the workplace because they
meet this job. It's like I can't quit. I have
the family, or a lot of people stay on the
job and are experiencing trauma on the job because that's
where they get the insurance and benefits, right, And they
got the baby at home, right, they got the grandma,
(26:31):
or they're taking care of their mom. But those are
those generational layers that people don't realize bring someone in
the workplace. A lot of time now I do consulting,
especially with female executives, and I talk about the layers
because they don't realize that onion is what's keeping them
in that job because they may not be happy because
you know, I have elderly parents, they say, or my
kids going to college, or I'm a single mom, or
(26:54):
I've made partner and I worked really hard, But are
you happy? Oh my god, that's not making you right.
It's the layers that I go through with them. This
first of all, working with female executives, that can be
a whole other or another yes, I'm gonna say another,
a whole nother masterclass that I don't know if you
(27:14):
have ever done, Like just for female executives because of
the slack they get, the flat they get, the like
you said, the microaggression too, you know, just on females
period in the workplace, it's traumatic. Let's talk about corporate
America regarding the pandemic and how tons of people She's like,
(27:37):
what corporate America the pandemic? There ain't nobody at work
no more. Well, well, it's because they've been doing the
term quiet quitting, you know. So there's there's so many terms.
There's a new term called soft life, but that's new
because it's like what I think I want to soft
life too. But anyway, we got quiet quitting, and there's
(27:58):
so many people who quit because because they no longer
wanted to go above and beyond. They only wanted to
do the work that they were paid for. And there
is even a push for four day work weeks that
are trending. What do you use foresee as the new
corporate climate? If workers aren't heard what I think's gonna
happen or what right corporate's gonna predict to happen? Right,
(28:24):
you're the expert, So okay, I'll give you. I'll give
you two Sunarians Okay, First of all, I think nobody's
gonna go back to work. They love this. The pandemic
has caused people to see things differently. People in Europe
do this all the time, right, and they're able to
balance and do things. I mean people like being in
their sweatpants and just five minutes before going the right
(28:45):
so you know everybody has done it so because nobody
knows there right. So so but I got on my
full outfit. I'm matching from I'm matching. I don't have
on just sweats. I'm matching well. But but this is
what people are doing, right, and so they're they're gonna
push back. The problem is corporations have build these sky
(29:09):
rides offices. They have all these people and no one's
in them. They are in New York. You're in New
York as we speak, right in the mindset, I have
to see you to be working. But there are so
many skyscrapers being build office spaces, like, what are they
going to do? I mean, how many apartments can you have? Right?
(29:30):
So there's gonna be a shift in realistic and what
is that shift going to look like? Are they going
to force people to come to work? So they don't
waste their money big organizations. Maybe not. Are we gonna
have a shift in hotels? Are we gonna have a
shift in leisure spaces or spaces people can rent for
office space, or are we gonna have a shift and
looking at how we redirect to work? Hey, you you
(29:51):
know what this This used to be an office space
and we're gonna revamp this to be a space where
you can work a plate. Okay, So I think that
there's gonna be a for instance coming out, but there
are gonna be those other ones more, you know that
are gonna say hey, we want to see you working
and bring people back in the workplace. And there are
some jobs that you have to physically be there. Yeah,
but if not, I see a change. I see a
(30:13):
definite change in one time. Do you feel that people
being in the workspace kind of keeps workplace synergy and
energy good? Now, I'm not saying every day, but if
you're if I'm thinking like if somebody's in the workplace
for like a day, everybody coming to work for a
day or two, I would think that that's okay. Because
I'm the type of person as far as work is concerned,
(30:35):
I'm in the place where I'm doing a lot of
virtual meetings and I'm like, man, I wish I could
be in the office with you, because I don't know,
it's something cool about it. There are a lot of
people that I work with that want to go in,
and a lot of the organizations that I consult with
let those people come in. And what they do is
(30:57):
they have sign ups for offices, so you've actually the
same office every day for the next year if you
want to. Right. But those people are more productive. Then
they have the other people who say, they say, you
can work wherever you want as long as you stay
in the US, okay, And so then they give them
the equipment. Right. But there are certain people that cannot
handle being at home, and so they recognize that because
(31:18):
there is an energy to going and talking at the
water cooler or you know, bringing people you know in
your office and hashing things out right, you know. So
it depends on the personality, depends on the task that
they're doing. Now, men, personally, I think they're more productive
at home because I really like lunches people, and I
tend to wanders. So you're better at home, okay, and listen,
(31:41):
And I think that the pandemic, there needed to be
some shifts made, and so sometimes there there are aspects
of the pandemic that were for a cleansing in all
kinds of ways. But at the same time, didn't we
hate all the lives that were lost in the families
who I grieve the loss of a loved one who
went into the hospital, Oh yeah and didn't come back,
(32:06):
you know, Oh my god, there's so many. You know.
What's interesting, My husband finally got COVID like recently, which
is sad, right, and he did it over Christmas and
he went blind. He lost his sight, yes, no wonder
the first self is And so we kind of create
a family car bowl and my daughter was helped driving
him around and like he woke up and his sight
(32:28):
was like negative two thousand are huge? Serious? How is
it right now? Now? It's change. He can drive. He's
probably at negative fifty right now. But you can drive
with like forty five something and one eye, Like you
know what you were saying, And it don't quote. We
went back to listening, but he was you know, it
(32:49):
really did affect him and and and I can't imagine
how he lost his sight, which is really crippling. But
imagine losing a life, losing a loved one like you
losing the life of a loved one, but and the eyesight,
going to sleep being able to see, but waking up blind.
How traumatic is that? Oh, he handle it so well,
(33:12):
but he's already a traumatized person. Right, So you got
a trauma who's having another trauma, you know, and there's
nothing I can say. There's nothing I can say. And
I remember looking at him and he is having the
hardest time one day. I've never been looking at him,
and I was holding his hand. We're lying there, and
I said, I know this is hard. I get it.
(33:32):
I don't even know what you're going through because I
can't tell you. I've never been blind. Right, Yeah, we
gotta make a plan because you have too much life
left and you're gonna wasted if you stay like this. Now, doctor,
here we go. This is some good talking for a
person that's going through trauma. You said something so beautiful.
I'm sorry. I don't know what it's like to be blind,
(33:53):
but I can help you. Let's make a plan. Right. So,
going back to how we treat people who have some
compounded trauma, not just oh I fell off a bike,
and skin my knee and that was traumatic. Because listen,
as I'm learning, doctor Debra, again, I honor you as
the expert. I've been learning that trauma just isn't like
(34:16):
seeing an open, bloody wound. You know. Trauma is like
you said, you could fall off a bike unexpectedly and
that's traumatic. Or you get news, you read a text
and I don't know, to me, this is trauma. What
if you what if your boyfriend done sent you a
(34:36):
text that he was trying to send to somebody else,
that's traumatic. Yes, it is. That is a different type
of trauma. Yeah, because trauma is that something that is blindsided,
something you didn't expect. Is that it's not the definition.
But sometimes trauma and stuff you don't expect. So if
(34:57):
you're looking at it like like post traumatic stresses or
something like that, right, first, you have to have an event,
right and that event has to cause you to feel
like you're in danger or your life is threatened, but
you have to perceive it. Okay, So going back to
your text message, I perceive this is dangerous. My life
is threatened. My livelihood has now changed because man, that's
(35:20):
a picture I shouldn't the gut or that's a text.
I shouldn't what's gonna happen to my family? What's gonna
happen in my life? Now? Do you see where that's trauma? Wow? Yeah,
So it's how you define it. I always tell people that, right,
And then there's symptoms that go with it, like you
have flashbacks, you get scared, you get anxious, heart heart,
heart pounds, you can't sleep. So that's why I remever.
(35:43):
I want someone else to find it because I was like,
you know what, Like you said something bloody, but imagine
you walk over and it's a bloody leg that yeah, right,
and that is gonna stick with you and you don't
even know. And trauma is one of those things that
creeps because if you don't talk about it, it creeps.
It swells, and then it comes out in odd ways
like sexually acting out, physically acting out, substance abuse, hitting people,
(36:06):
little kids getting anxious. You ever seen little kids to
pull out their hair? Yes? Pulling out hair, eyebrow? Yes, Yes,
that's all trauma you know that gets My daughter? I
love her. She wrote a cook We wrote a cookbook
because she was a foster kid. But the first time
I met her, she would carry everything in everything. She
(36:29):
go with this backpack and I was like, baby, you
don't have to do that. And it took years. Now
she has a little clutch back. I'm so brow So
I said, okay, we're gonna do something bad room, get
some coach, because yes, you can't handle this little plastic lutch.
But yes, yes, yes, yes, how it got Oh my gosh,
(36:49):
so sweet, so sweet for you to be in the
field that she loved, but to still have a heart
that seems to be able to feel in your field? Right?
How how do you maintain a heart that can feel? Well,
that's all God, I will tell you that, like, this
is what God wanted me to do. It's what he
(37:10):
made me to do, and that's all I know how
to do. I mean, I'd love to be a jazz
and blues singer. That's where you can help me head
and I can let okay, okay, I'd love to be
the assistant intern, y'all if y'all in here. Earlier I
told her, if you're just tuning in, I want to
be her intern for the summer because she works in
the field that I dreamed to be in. Y'all, friends, Yes,
(37:33):
but no that I could be your little singing project.
But I can't sing, so it ain't gonna go nowhere. Well,
we gotta see because maybe there is something in you
that you don't know. You're into acting, maybe we can
pull some of that out. You teach people, you know,
how to it's all about the emotions that is friend
and how you're able to emote. You know that because
you teach that as well. So yeah, well you know
(37:56):
what's interesting is that you know, one of the things
I say is everybody is listening to love right, And
they're like, what does that mean? Well, you can hear
me talking. People hear me talking blah blah blah, but
are you listening to me? And then when you hear
my words, how do you respond? And if you always
respond from a place of love, there's nothing that can
(38:16):
come out of your mouth but something that someone can
hear or wants to hear because you're listening, taking it
in and then responding with love. So that's kind of
how I do this. I always listen and say I'm
gonna respond with love. And if I think, oh my god,
that wasn't I will say, I am so sorry, but
that wasn't something. Wow, Yeah, you have been so amazing
(38:39):
and so intriguing. You know when I ask you, how
do you still have a heart that feels Because there
are some people that have some hard jobs, yeah, therapists, cops,
the people in certain leadership roles where you have to
deal with a lot of people and sometimes your heart
can get hardened, right because of everything that you see,
(39:00):
Or you have to make certain split second decisions where
you can't have emotions. You have to go buy facts
and logic. But it's been a joy sitting here with
you today. If you can, can you tell us about
this upcoming project and conference that I'm so excited that
you get to share with us. Yes, So I have
(39:20):
the Script Conference coming up on July twenty and twenty
first the California Endownment the Script Conference dot com, or
they can just go to my website and there's a
tab doctor Deborah Warner dot net Doctor Deborah Warner dot net.
I also have a show coming out in the CBS
UK called Murder Find the Truth and I get to
talk about crimes, So look for that if you If
(39:41):
you go on my website or find me on Instagram,
I'll have a link tree. I'll have a link right
to it when it comes out. It's gonna come out, Meg,
and you'll get to see all the stuff I'm talking about.
You get to see, y'all. I'm so excited. So SCRIPT
is Summit on Community Resilience, Intervention, Prevention and Training. That's
what SCRIPT means. And so you can go to the
(40:04):
scriptconference dot com. This is going to be absolutely fabulous.
And your website again, your personal website, well, doctor Deborah
Warner dot net. Okay, okay, we are so excited, doctor Deborah.
You've been a joy. We covered a lot of ground.
(40:25):
I feel like you can give a great word of
encouragement to someone who feels like I've had too much
trauma in my life. There's no way I can get
better and have a great quality of life. What would
you say, Oh my goodness, that you're valued, that you're loved,
and that you can do anything. So good, doctor Deborah.
(40:49):
Thank you so much, y'all. She's sitting at Columbia University
right now in New York and she's got to get
out of here. But she's been such a joy, doctor Deborah.
Thank you for checking in. Oh thank you for having me. Yes,
man will see you again. Oh my gosh, how awesome
was this? Oh, this was so great, y'all. I promise
(41:10):
you you will see me in La spending at least
a day with her, Like it's no joke. I'm so
sincere because you guys, I never got the chance to
shadow the county coroner, because I don't think if y'all
didn't read my book, you gotta read it because it
tells you of a big choice that I had to
(41:30):
make as it related to Destiny's Child or pursuing another field.
I'm not gonna say too much. You gotta get my
book checking in, or if you already know what it was,
go ahead and DM me and tell me what it was,
all right. So any who, I just love y'all, and
I hope that you are continuing to do well. It's
(41:51):
getting warmer out, you know what I'm saying. Stay well
and get some sunshine, all right, Bye? Bye? I love you,
And again, you already know what you're gonna do. There's
nothing you can do about it, all right. I always
want you to know you're loved. Checking In with Michelle
(42:22):
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Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.