February 14, 2023 • 37 mins
Michelle and Dr. Zuckerman are checking in with your valentine! Dr. Zuckerman gives us an in-depth understanding of the term “love-bombing”. She also helps us to identify red flags on a first date and signs that you may be dating a narcissist. CHECK IN to this episode before you head out for your Valentine’s Day date with your new “special someone”.
For more on Dr. Zuckerman, visit https://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/
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Instagram: @MichelleWilliams
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
My Heart Radio and The Black Effect. I have got
a special Valentine's episode today that includes an expert on
(00:24):
love bombing. What is that? There's being wind and dying
by a romantic figure, but then there's getting a love
bomb from a narcissist and that can be the beginning
of an abusive relationship. How can you tell the difference? Well,
we're about to get right into that, and so I'm
so excited for y'all to get into today's episode and
(00:45):
Happy Valentine's Day, y'all. I'm so excited about today's guests. Yes,
I say that about every episode. Each guest is handpick,
so I get to be excited about everybody that comes
to this show. She's a nationally known expert on narcissism.
She's a narcissistic abuse relationship coach and licensed clinical psychologist. Yes,
(01:09):
she's a doctor who also appears as the go to
expert for local Philadelphia Fox, CBS, ABC, and more. Please
welcome Dr Jamie Zuckerman. Dr z is here, y'all here
on checking in. Hi, thanks so much for having me. Hey, Hey,
Well today is Valentine's Day, Happy Valentine's Day, Happy Valentine's
(01:35):
Day to YouTube dr Z, what do we know about
this day? Valentine's Day. Yeah, So I always tell people
that if you are with someone, you're not with someone,
it really doesn't matter. It is one day, and if
you want to celebrate it, great, If you don't, that's
(01:57):
great too, you know, And a lot of times I'm
probably only with my views on this. Actually I'm glad
you asked this. People say, you know, on Valenti's say,
if you don't have somebody you know, do something for yourselves,
make it about you. And I think that's great. But
here's the thing. You should be doing that every day,
and if you're just doing it on Valentine's Day because
you don't have someone, it's still kind of makes you
(02:18):
feel like you're doing something for yourself by default. And
I have a big problem with that. Just my two
cents on that. Who I need counseling and therapy because
I'm only excited about Valentine's Day like once every ten years,
whether I'm in a relationship or not. And I think
it's because of what Valentine's Day does. Two people. Now
(02:41):
we know every year Valentine's Day is what February fourteen,
But somehow I say this all the time. Well, when
it comes to this topic, I'll never forget. I was
going to pick up an order that I have, I
believe my place for my parents. I had already place
the order a while ago, so I'm patient. I know
(03:05):
my orders ready. I'm going to this Flora's shop and
you should see the folks in there going bonkers over
like the card section, the card section, and then you
gotta go to the refrigerator and get the mediocre floral arrangements.
You know this day was coming. Men are beat red
(03:28):
in the face because it's pressure. You knew this day
was coming. Mm hmmmm. So for me, I hate what
it does to people. But then I get mad at
the folks that wait at the last minute to go
and get something for Valentine's Day. M hmm. But I
think that speaks to the pressure that the holiday holds,
is that people are running to do these things and
(03:51):
it inherently makes it lose its Menick, yeah, yeah, you know,
it's like you're just scared you're gonna forget. And if
you forget on February four means then you know, it's
one thing if you forget your anniversary, right, or you
forget somebody your best friend's birthday, Like that's that's different.
I feel like for this, it's like you know what's there,
but it's become so commonplace almost that that it's like
(04:16):
it's easy to forget. Almost it lost its it lost
its meeting. Like you wouldn't forget hopefully not your you know,
your best friend's birthday or a parent's birthday or significant
other's birthday, right. But for some reason on Valentine's Day,
it's because it's so I don't know, in your face,
it almost makes it easier to slip up or forget,
(04:36):
and then people rush to do it because they don't
want to obviously hurt the other person's feelings. But it
also takes the meaning away from it, I think, and
that's not you know, listen, Valence. I don't want to,
you know, be all doing bloom about Valentized. It's one,
it's it's a wonderful holiday. It's a great way to
show that you care about somebody. I just don't think
it's the end all, be all necessity, you know, or
it's not just it's not the only way to show
(04:58):
somebody you care about them. Isn't that the only way,
nor is it the only day? Correct? So hopefully what
a person does for me on Valentine's Days just indicative
of what they've always been doing. You know. While I
will be appreciative that you succumbed to the pressure of
Valentine's Day beautifully, beautifully, I will receive it and take it.
(05:24):
But my I think me and you agree on making
sure that not only is it just this day, but
as many days as possible that we show love to
our loved ones, And how Valentine's Day just does not
have to be limited to a romantic partner. If you
have a loving relationship with your parents, your friends, heck,
(05:46):
your dog. I'm gonna get my dog a biscuit for Valentine'sday. Matter,
I'm gonna get him. I'm gonna go get him a
little ice cream lickey cup. Okay, just show correct, you know,
just show some love. And here's the other thing to
keep in mind is that the way people show love
to each other is so unique and so different for
every person. I you know, I know my best friend
(06:08):
does not like flowers, right, does her? Act would give
her flowers after they would fight and it would be abuse.
It was horrible. So she doesn't like flowers. So I'm
going to show her any type of affection or love
on her birthday. I'm not sending her flowers, So, you know,
I think it's important to you know, some people don't
exchange gifts as a way to show love. Sometimes people
do experience things together. They you know, they go to
(06:29):
a movie together, they go to dinner together, or they
just ordering food and sit on the couch. So I
think it also is important to communicate with your partner whoever,
how you show love and how you want to be
shown love. That doesn't mean if the get flowers, we're
not gonna be grateful. Of course we're going to be grateful.
But I think it's important to know your partner, know
how you both experience, you know, and show love and
(06:51):
show love. Wow. All right, so y'all be encouraged on
this day. You know, it's not the end all, be all.
And guess what if you got it wrong today, you
got our fault. It's not our fault, and you've got
and you've got the rest of the year to make
some adjustments and make corrections. And please know that you
(07:15):
are loved, regardless if you've got a flower or a
heart shaped candy box today. Okay, I promise you because
the four of us that are sitting here on this
recording producers and our guest doctor Z, we are folks
that know you are loved. All right. All right, So,
speaking of love and this month of Love, I wanted
(07:37):
to speak to you about this word that has been
circulating the planet. Not worm, It's a statement or term
called love bombing. Yes, is it just on Valentine's Day
where it starts? But what is this phenomenon? Yeah, so
(07:58):
love bombing is a very um so it's thrown around.
We know this on social media a lot. But um,
love bombing is a very common practice by somebody who
has narcissistic personality disorder, whereby definitely does not just a
cur on Valentine's Day. In fact, if you're with a
narcissist on Valentine's Day is likely going to be a
(08:20):
day where there's an argument where you are specifically given
something that they know you don't like or don't want,
so that you can then appear ungrateful and an argument
can start or they forget about it altogether. On purpose.
So love bombing is a deliberate tactic. Yes, they know
what they're doing. Where when you start dating somebody initially,
(08:43):
and I will start by saying that people often think
that narcissists go for people who are weak, who are dependent, needy, clingy,
that is not true. In fact, narcissists tends to and
prefer to go for people who are secure, who are
you know, have something to offer them, are successful or outspoken, attractive,
(09:07):
because it's higher for them to knock you down, and
they get more supply and more reinforcement from knocking somebody
down that's really high up. They appear after a while
to be dependent and maybe weak and and you know,
and and can't speak off for themselves because the narcissists
has broken them down so much. But love bombing we
(09:29):
are all you and me, everyone, We are all susceptible
to love bombing. Why because it feels really freaking good.
So you'll go on a date with somebody, let's say,
And if you are making a blanket statement here, and
I know there's gonna people that are listening and saying,
well I did I met my soul mate on date one? Great?
But you're like in the point zero zero one percent category.
(09:49):
When you go on a date with somebody and you
start dating someone, doesn't matter how you meet them. If
in the first couple of months of dating you here
you are my soul mate, run because here's why. You
don't even know on a first date, their middle name,
what their favorite food is, what kind of music they like,
(10:10):
what kind of movies they like, what they're you know,
what their favorite place to go. If you have no
idea about them as a human being, how on earth
do you know that's your soul mate? You don't, so
you will hear things like you're my soul mate? Where
have you been all my life? It's like we have
our own language. No one gets me like you. I've
(10:31):
never felt this way before. This is just there's something here,
you know. That's not to say you're not going to
have an immediate connection with someone. Of course, that happens
all the time their sexual chemistry. This is different. This
feels like a tidal wave. This feels like a fairy tale,
like ripped out of Hollywood. It's too good to be true.
(10:54):
So it's this constant checking in and texting which feels
so good. Is attention. It's the sex is amazing, and
the gifts and the vacations and the dinners, and they're
introducing you to all their I'll say this lightly, all
their quote friends. You find that very early on you
(11:15):
are talking about your deepest, darkest, vulnerable moments, and there's
a reason for that. You seem to connect on these
really deep levels, and it appears to move really fast,
really really fast, talking about your kids names. On date
number three, you're talking about where you want to move.
You're driving around, pointing to a house and saying, I
(11:37):
want that house. So the perfect example of this, I get, Um,
this is an old movie. Um, what is it called?
With jaylo Enough? Did you ever see that movie? And
I can't say that I have. Okay, it's with Jennifer Lopez.
It's so good and it is probably one of the
best movies I have ever seen. It depicts love bombing
to eight. It's excellent. High recommends anyone listening to definitely
(12:01):
watch this. So you know, they're they're driving around the
neighborhood and she says, I love this house. Next thing,
you know, he buys it for her. It's like all
this just it's too perfect, and what happened The purpose
of all of this is to suck you in so
much so that getting out almost feels impossible, and they
(12:22):
will get your vulnerabilities out of you so that later
on they kind of stored away so that later on
they know your weaknesses, they know your hot buttons, they
know how to get you. So maybe you get into
an argument and they say to you, don't talk to
me like that, I'm not your father, or something like
that where they know that's something that's a hot button
for you, and you're you're stuck, You're you're trapped, and
(12:45):
so they will use it and then they kind of switch,
so they know what they're doing. This is something that
they know. It is a deliberate strategy. The tricky thing
becomes when they switch, right, let's say, slowly, they start
to give you these digs like, uh, you know, Michelle,
I don't your friend Jamie. I'm surprised your friends with her,
(13:07):
You guys don't really I don't know if I trust her.
I have to be honest with you, I'm not. I'm
not sure if I trust her. I know your friends like,
I'm not sure. Just be careful or are your parents
always that involved in your life? Like you really should
start saying no to them. They slowly start to isolate
you from people because they want to make it so
that you are unable to have the support necessary to
(13:30):
tell people about the abuse, so that you don't have
anyone objective to bounce this stuff off of. So our
love bombers generally narcissist or can a person that is
not a narcissist be a love bomber? So great questions.
So they are narcissists, yes, However, there are times where
(13:50):
people I see this a lot with people who have
a d h J. So in the beginning, they may
you know, come on really really strong because for whatever
is and it's like, you know, their filter is not
really there, or their their behavior tends to be a
bit more impulsive. They tend to get like really into
it and then they kind of it's like they do
with kind of hobbies, like really really into something, and
(14:11):
then they stop, and then they get into something else
and they stop. So that can look like love bombing,
but the underlying function of it is very different. People
can love bomb all the time, but the purpose of
them love bombing may just be they have bad boundaries
or they just got out of something and they're they
really miss being with someone, so they jump into something
(14:32):
really really fast. But it's not with the intention of
manipulating or harming or trapping the other person. Narcissists, you
use love bombing solely as a strategy to get you in,
to suck you in so that you can't get out.
And then when they slowly start to throw those kind
of comments in um and then one day they you
(14:55):
you've cooked dinner, let's say, and it's the same dinner
you cooked the night before, and they tell you they
love cook it again for them because you're so excited
because they loved it, and they tell you it's horrible,
and they throw the plate against the wall and they leave,
and you have no idea what you did. What happens,
and before you know, you're apologizing, but you don't quite
know what you're apologizing for. And so it starts. It's
(15:17):
like they should be apologizing for their response, right, But
that will never happen. They'll never take accountability, and it's
done on purpose. So here you are confused. They make
the rules, arbitrary rules, and then when you think you
figured it out, they change them again. They give you
the style and treatment we don't know what you did.
And the reason why this becomes so damaging and so
(15:39):
tricky is that love bombing stage. They'll start to pepper
it in here and there if they think that you're
going to leave them, if they think that you're figuring
them out, they'll start to pepper and some of that
love bombing, but never to the degree that it was
in the beginning, And that's on purpose. The person you
saw in the beginning does not and never it exists,
(16:00):
and that's the part for people that's extremely traumatic. They
never existed. So when they say I just want to
get back to where it was in the beginning, that
wasn't real. It was on purpose. It was purposely to succuent.
So that's that's love bombing from any narcissists, and that's
the purpose of it. Wow. So what is the difference
(16:23):
between love bombing? Because there I'm having compassion because it's
like there are people their love bombing. But I thought
a part of it was because they were trying to
perform for love. Well, I'll buy her this, her favorite parents,
wi a cell, shoes or in the matching bag to
get her or him to love me. So the difference
(16:47):
is that one is to get the other person to
love them without the intention of harming them. A narcissist
will buy you those things with the intent shin of
sucking you in, But they don't. They don't necessarily care
(17:07):
what your response is. It's just it's a response for them.
They just care about manipulating you enough so that you
feel stuck, and they will do that whatever whatever means
they need to do. So, if they know that you
love shoes in facts, they're going to deliberately do that. Right,
If they know you love vacations, are going to deliberately
do that. Whereas somebody who is trying to perform or
(17:30):
you know, try to win you over. It may not
be the healthiest way to do it, but their intentions
are not to trick you. Okay. So are narcissists rare
so diagnostically from a diagnostic standpoint because they never present
(17:51):
for treatment, because they don't go to therapy, and because
they don't self identify as having narcissistic personality? Are like
a very very few say their self aware narcissists. But
that's a whole different um. It is I believe, and
and people in my field will believe it's grossly underdiagnosed.
So if that is the case, then how do you
(18:12):
do with maybe experiencing love bombing from your average person?
Or I'm like, is that average person just undiagnosed? So
it's somebody is love bombing you, and it's with the
intention to manipulate, and it's very calculated and it's very strategic.
(18:34):
There's gonna be a whole host of other behaviors and
patterns that have existed long before they started love bombing you.
M so love bombing alone is a red flag, but
you know it's gonna be kind of part of a
whole host of other behaviors in addition to that. Okay,
I was I had notes on love bombing versus performing
(18:56):
for love. And when I say performing for love, you
know I don't mean actually getting on stage, but forming
I mean performing for love means I will do this
to get a response or or you might have found
yourself performing for affirmation or approval as a child. I
gotta make sure I get a's so that my mommy
hugs me, because it seems like she hugs me. So
(19:17):
that's that's what I meant performing for Yeah, And I
mean and that that again, it's not that it's healthy
because it's so conditional, right, but you performing meaning you know,
trying to get a's so that your mom will give
you attention. That's not with the purpose of trying to
harm or manipulate your mom. It's to be able to
(19:38):
get you know, to feel good from a parent. Again,
not healthy, but it's not with the intention of It's
not a calculated move to harm somebody to get them
to you know, it feels stuck with you, got it.
I feel like I was like, well, I love bombed,
(19:58):
but I don't know if I could call this person
a narcissist. But a part of me feels like they
were also flexing what they can what they can do
correct to let me know, hey, this is possible, correct
you know? Yeah, I mean, I mean I can't imagine that.
(20:19):
I mean, that's I don't want to say it's human.
But in a way, it's kind of like somebody's into you.
They're attracted to you. They want to show you, they
want to you know, they want to brag a little bit,
they wanna show you what life could be like with them,
and they you know, I get that, and I don't
think that that's always a bad thing. As long as
it doesn't. The differences is with love bombing, it's gonna stop.
(20:40):
You know, when you meet somebody and in the beginning
of the relationship, it's like the honeymoon phase. Everything's great
and everyone's on their best behavior, and then it kind
of fizzles, right, But it doesn't become the complete and
total opposite with with a narcissist, it's it's not even
that it fizzles, it just it is and then it's boom,
like the masks alls off, and it's never back to
(21:02):
that stage. Whereas in a even in an unhealthy relationship,
if it starts to fizzle, you can always say to
each other, Okay, what brought us together in the beginning,
and let's go back to that place that brought us
together in the beginning. With a narcissist, that beginning never
was real, so there's nothing to go back to. M
I was also reading how love bombing, a love bomber
(21:24):
possibly wants a commitment, a rapid commitment. Yes, they want
to snag you, suck you, and they don't want a commitment.
They want you committed to them. There's a difference. They
don't they don't want a commitment to you. They want
you wrapped up in them, they want to take ownership
(21:45):
of you. It's it's very much um. They view people
as objects. They're collectors, the collectors of people. They collect people.
Everybody has a purpose, everybody has a function, and when
that functions up, you're done. Yeah, this says from an
article in Cosmopolitan. Anyone is capable of love bombing, but
(22:08):
it's most often a symptom of narcissistic personality disorder. Not
that you needed confirmation that you're right, because you're you're
an expert in this field. Love Bombing is largely largely
an unconscious behavior. It's about really getting the other person.
Then when they feel like they really got the person
(22:29):
and they feel secure in the relationship, the narcissist typically
switches and becomes very difficult, abusive, or manipulative. So I
agree with half of that. The part that I don't
agree with is that it's an unconscouse. I know it,
I know it, I don't know. It's definitely not. It
is absolutely for the simple fact that when they are
(22:52):
done with you and they go on to the next person,
it is like a playbook. It is the exact same thing.
They will take them to the exact same place as
they took you too. They will do the exact same things,
or they'll do the things you always wanted them to
do but they never did with you, and they'll deliberately
do it with the next person. Blessed all our social
media so that you think they change. I don't think
(23:16):
it's unconscious. I also don't I think this is where
the word gets thrown around. I don't think love bombing
is done by people other than narcissists. Love Bombing inherently
is a deliberate strategy to suck in the other person.
I think sometimes people can look like their love bombing
by like what you said, like you know, buying you
(23:37):
things and wanting that affort, you know, kind of buying
your love in a way. Again, not that it's healthy,
but they're not doing it to manipulate you in to
spit you back out. Okay, all right, there's also about it,
says benign occurrences. You know, if actions match words, then
(23:59):
it's probably not love bombing. And like I said, I
know a lot of this go definitely will go again.
You know your beliefs and I'm sure your experiences experiences,
So how do you feel when you hear this stuff
that I just read, I mean as Cosmopolitan is not
psychology today dot com, Right. I think that people obviously,
(24:24):
you know, based on your your training, your theory throughout
of orientation, how you're all that stuff, people are gonna
look at at every diagnosis differently, in the ideology of
every diagnosis differently. But in my experience and my colleagues
and kind of the the what I based on the
research that I know, it's not a benign occurrence, and
(24:47):
I think we have to be careful with that because
it really invalidates the trauma that survivors have gone through. Absolutely,
So I we have to be careful with that because
love bombing, if you have somebody who is loved bombed
versus somebody who was wined and dying and then it's fizzled,
(25:08):
it's an inherently different experience. I mean, it's the person,
the person is conned, the person is tricked, and then
they're stuck in a life that is horrifically abusive, which
is not the case for somebody who's like wine and
nine and then broken up with It's very different. I'm
(25:30):
literally sitting here reflecting. I was like, I think I
was love bombed. I was sitting here chatting with the
producers telling them what happened. And I think one thing
that turned me off This person one day said good morning,
my love, and I was like, it's July. I met
(25:51):
you in May. Now the reason why I'm trying to
have compassion, empathy, understanding and A labeled this person as
a love bomber, it's because I know they're ready for marriage,
so they may be rushing things along. Yeah, right, What
what do you say to that? So I think that
(26:13):
happens all the time. I think, you know, we don't
want we don't want people to misconstrue someone's affection, uh
their pet names, your love bombing, and then you push
away a relationship or even something that could be maybe
matriculated to just a friendship. You don't want to burn
that absolutely, absolutely, So it's a great question. So what
(26:34):
I what I tell people is that if somebody, like,
if you really care about somebody, whether it's a significant other, friends,
a parent, sibling, if you really care about them, and
they tell you know, or they set a boundary or
they cancel plans on you, you're not going to abuse
them verbally abuse them physically abuse them, sexually abuse them,
(26:55):
cut them off. That's not going to be your response.
You're going to respect them. Now. Maybe you'll be angry
because you had plans for a month, right, or maybe
you're gonna be annoyed or maybe even get into an argument.
But with somebody who's loved bombing you. One of the
ways that I tell people to kind of test this
out because you're right, you don't want to push push
this way, And this happens with people who had been
(27:16):
in our senistic relationships. Will say to me, you know, like,
I don't know if this person's love bomb me. They
held the door for me. I'm like, okay, let's take
a step back right there. Nothing's wrong with holding a
door for you. You have to look at the behavior
in context. What else is happening. So here's it's never
gonna be just one thing. Here's what I tell people.
See what happens if you're not sure. See what happens
(27:38):
if you set a boundary with them. See what happens
if you cancel plans last minute. See what happens if
you tell them no, I don't want you to come in.
Tell See what happens if you tell them. You want
to take your time. Things are moving too fast, because
you know as well as I do. If you're really
into somebody and they say to you, I really like you,
I'm really into I just let's just take it a
(28:00):
little bit slower. Maybe you have kids, like you don't
want to be introducing to the kids, or you just
got out of something. It doesn't even matter what you're reason.
You could have been single for the last twenty years,
maybe like you know, you're in school, whatever the case
may be. If the person responds to that boundary with disrespect,
it looks like verbal abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse, or
(28:22):
just silent treatment cut you out. That's a very good indicator,
such a good indicator. Or if they keep pushing back,
like keep pushing your boundaries, they don't respect your boundaries.
And there's even if that's not love bombing. Even if
it's not, you still don't want somebody like that. So
I caution people with the labeling too much, because look
(28:42):
at the behaviors. Do you really even want that behavior.
Let's say they're not a narcissi. Do you really want
someone who's gonna constantly disrespect your boundaries and your space? No,
just right, And you gotta look at not only just
dating on this one day, just look at like you said,
do I want this forever? Possibly? Should they propose to me? Right?
Is this the quality of life that I that I desire? Yeah?
(29:05):
Because being in these types of relationships, I really believe
they have an effect on your health, Oh dent, they
do not just your mental health, but your physical health.
High rate of autoimmune disease, poor sleep, heart disease, high
risk for cancer because you're your nervous system is so disregulated,
(29:27):
which means that everything in your body, your heart rate,
your blood pressure, the dopamine levels, your Sara Tonin levels,
everything is out of whack. And so yes, one affects
your physical health on wo Yeah. Wow. So if you
know somebody that's got some recurring health problems, check their relationships.
I'm just playing, No, I mean you're not so, I
(29:50):
mean you want to check their mental health and their
their their current relationships because it's a chronic stress. Are
also narcissist will deliberately mess with your sleep, so you know,
if you're sleep deprived, you are not well in any way.
They pray on the week. Very very interesting, very interesting,
(30:14):
and I know those are y'all listening today? You are
preparing to present your loved one with their gifts. And
if there is a love bomber listening Dr Jamie and
they feel attacked, what do you have to say to them?
I say, we see you. But is their hope? Is
(30:40):
their hope for that type of behavior for the narcissist,
for the one on the receiving end the narcissist. I'll
just put it this way. It is extremely rare that
a narcissist will ever change their behavior. Mm hmmm. Because
a part of me is like, man, these words are
floating around and people are misusing the words. But if
(31:02):
there's one person that happens to be listening and you're like,
that could be me, and there's a root. I believe
there's a route to every behavior. To me, narcissists are
very insecure. There's a lot of shame. They have a
lot of shame, longstanding shame. The problem is that if
that shame is ever exposed or they feel exposed, that's
(31:25):
where that narcissistic rage comes in. That's when a lot
of the abuse starts. Um, that's when you know, the
silent treatments start, the abandonment starts the other person. So
and I agree, and I believe that, but let's get
to the root of what you're ashamed about. Let's get
to the root of what you're insecure about. Because I
believe change behavior and a change person and a change heart.
(31:49):
I believe there's hope there if you If I don't know,
if maybe if the person on the receiving again has
maybe been in a lot of counseling and therapy and
can muster up the strength. Not saying it's your job
to get that person to help to me, and I'm
not saying that, but I'm just wanted if a person
that's listening that's actually a narcissist or can say mm hmmm.
(32:11):
So if they're saying that, if they're saying that they're
not a narcissist, if they're saying that that, yeah, I
know this. This is the only diagnosis like in the
world that I will ever say, yes, there's a reason
why they do what they do. Absolutely is it their fault? No?
(32:33):
Will they change? Highly unlikely. And and in fact, if
somebody listen, there's two there's narcissistic behavior, but then there's
also people who demonstrate narcissistic patterns and they think that's
more what you're probably talking about. People that demonstrate narcissistic
patterns may not realize. So if I said to you,
you know, you did this, this, this, and you really
(32:53):
hurt me, and maybe you weren't aware that you were
doing it, but when I tell you that you hurt me,
you're like, well, wait, I don't I don't want to
hurt you. Let me work on this. That's not a narcissist.
It may be someone who's they've learned patterns that resemble that,
but but they're able to change them, and narcissist would
(33:14):
never stop and think maybe I should stop doing this.
They think that they are entitled to act that way.
So you're right. People who do have those thoughts will
absolutely they will be able to with insight and awareness
and help and therapy. But with the narcissist in therapy,
(33:36):
what ends up happening is they manipulate the sessions and
if the therapist kind of starts to gently call them
out on it, they they will never come back. So
it's really tricky, so that it sounds like there ain't
no hope for one. I don't want to say that. Um,
it's just the change is really tough. There's there's people
(33:58):
that will say their self aware and nars assess and
they're aware of what they do, but it's a different
story when they actively in the moment, pause and choose
not to do that behavior. Okay, it's really hard for
them because that's shame that I was talking about. Is
is really tough for them? Okay, yeah, I can now
(34:18):
wait to study more on narcissists that are self aware
that they you know that I'll send you you will, yeah, ok.
Because what they do is they analyze narcissistic behavior from
their standpoint and they will tell you exactly what the
person is doing. That doesn't mean they still don't do it,
(34:40):
but they are aware of why the person is doing it.
So it's actually it's interesting to hear from the other
from their perspective. So I can definitely, I can. I'll
send that to you. It's interesting. Please do, please do.
And this is so educational because I believe so many
people want love, even if you say that I want
to be in a relationship, but I believe everybody desires connection,
(35:04):
to feel seen, understood and all that good stuff. And
so this is the episode we're gonna call this the
looking Out episode. We are looking out for you. Now
you touched a little bit on narcissism or or a
lot because this this topic love bombing and narcissism, they
go hand in hand. But I would love for you
to come back and let's really dive into that term
(35:26):
of narcissism and possible even um gaslighting and what all
that entails, because that is serious. And this season of
Checking In, I'm looking forward to people's breakthroughs relationally, financially
and emotionally, and thank you for being a part of that.
Thank you everyone having Happy Valentine. We will, we will,
(35:49):
we will. I'll hit you later and let you know
how it went. Um, And to everybody listening, seriously, happy
Valentine's Day. And please know that you I'm a shoot.
You're loved, y'all. I promise you. I try to find
some balance in this conversation today because it is Valentine's Day,
(36:12):
but I guess I just wanted to give everybody some
intel on what to look for today. So if you're
going out with somebody you've never met, please don't blame
us for the side eyes that you might give the
person that you're on a date with tonight. And those
(36:34):
of you that have been in a relationship for a
while now, maybe you've gotten past, you know, looking for
the red flags and all that good stuff. So guess what,
you're good to go. You're good to go, So listen.
Thank you all for listening, and have an amazing Valentine's Day. Alright,
keep it kids, alright, love y'all by Checking In with
(37:25):
Michelle Williams is a production of I Heart Radio and
The Black Effect. For more podcasts from I heart Radio,
visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
My Heart Radio and The Black Effect. I have got
a special Valentine's episode today that includes an expert on
(00:24):
love bombing. What is that? There's being wind and dying
by a romantic figure, but then there's getting a love
bomb from a narcissist and that can be the beginning
of an abusive relationship. How can you tell the difference? Well,
we're about to get right into that, and so I'm
so excited for y'all to get into today's episode and
(00:45):
Happy Valentine's Day, y'all. I'm so excited about today's guests. Yes,
I say that about every episode. Each guest is handpick,
so I get to be excited about everybody that comes
to this show. She's a nationally known expert on narcissism.
She's a narcissistic abuse relationship coach and licensed clinical psychologist. Yes,
(01:09):
she's a doctor who also appears as the go to
expert for local Philadelphia Fox, CBS, ABC, and more. Please
welcome Dr Jamie Zuckerman. Dr z is here, y'all here
on checking in. Hi, thanks so much for having me. Hey, Hey,
Well today is Valentine's Day, Happy Valentine's Day, Happy Valentine's
(01:35):
Day to YouTube dr Z, what do we know about
this day? Valentine's Day. Yeah, So I always tell people
that if you are with someone, you're not with someone,
it really doesn't matter. It is one day, and if
you want to celebrate it, great, If you don't, that's
(01:57):
great too, you know, And a lot of times I'm
probably only with my views on this. Actually I'm glad
you asked this. People say, you know, on Valenti's say,
if you don't have somebody you know, do something for yourselves,
make it about you. And I think that's great. But
here's the thing. You should be doing that every day,
and if you're just doing it on Valentine's Day because
you don't have someone, it's still kind of makes you
(02:18):
feel like you're doing something for yourself by default. And
I have a big problem with that. Just my two
cents on that. Who I need counseling and therapy because
I'm only excited about Valentine's Day like once every ten years,
whether I'm in a relationship or not. And I think
it's because of what Valentine's Day does. Two people. Now
(02:41):
we know every year Valentine's Day is what February fourteen,
But somehow I say this all the time. Well, when
it comes to this topic, I'll never forget. I was
going to pick up an order that I have, I
believe my place for my parents. I had already place
the order a while ago, so I'm patient. I know
(03:05):
my orders ready. I'm going to this Flora's shop and
you should see the folks in there going bonkers over
like the card section, the card section, and then you
gotta go to the refrigerator and get the mediocre floral arrangements.
You know this day was coming. Men are beat red
(03:28):
in the face because it's pressure. You knew this day
was coming. Mm hmmmm. So for me, I hate what
it does to people. But then I get mad at
the folks that wait at the last minute to go
and get something for Valentine's Day. M hmm. But I
think that speaks to the pressure that the holiday holds,
is that people are running to do these things and
(03:51):
it inherently makes it lose its Menick, yeah, yeah, you know,
it's like you're just scared you're gonna forget. And if
you forget on February four means then you know, it's
one thing if you forget your anniversary, right, or you
forget somebody your best friend's birthday, Like that's that's different.
I feel like for this, it's like you know what's there,
but it's become so commonplace almost that that it's like
(04:16):
it's easy to forget. Almost it lost its it lost
its meeting. Like you wouldn't forget hopefully not your you know,
your best friend's birthday or a parent's birthday or significant
other's birthday, right. But for some reason on Valentine's Day,
it's because it's so I don't know, in your face,
it almost makes it easier to slip up or forget,
(04:36):
and then people rush to do it because they don't
want to obviously hurt the other person's feelings. But it
also takes the meaning away from it, I think, and
that's not you know, listen, Valence. I don't want to,
you know, be all doing bloom about Valentized. It's one,
it's it's a wonderful holiday. It's a great way to
show that you care about somebody. I just don't think
it's the end all, be all necessity, you know, or
it's not just it's not the only way to show
(04:58):
somebody you care about them. Isn't that the only way,
nor is it the only day? Correct? So hopefully what
a person does for me on Valentine's Days just indicative
of what they've always been doing. You know. While I
will be appreciative that you succumbed to the pressure of
Valentine's Day beautifully, beautifully, I will receive it and take it.
(05:24):
But my I think me and you agree on making
sure that not only is it just this day, but
as many days as possible that we show love to
our loved ones, And how Valentine's Day just does not
have to be limited to a romantic partner. If you
have a loving relationship with your parents, your friends, heck,
(05:46):
your dog. I'm gonna get my dog a biscuit for Valentine'sday. Matter,
I'm gonna get him. I'm gonna go get him a
little ice cream lickey cup. Okay, just show correct, you know,
just show some love. And here's the other thing to
keep in mind is that the way people show love
to each other is so unique and so different for
every person. I you know, I know my best friend
(06:08):
does not like flowers, right, does her? Act would give
her flowers after they would fight and it would be abuse.
It was horrible. So she doesn't like flowers. So I'm
going to show her any type of affection or love
on her birthday. I'm not sending her flowers, So, you know,
I think it's important to you know, some people don't
exchange gifts as a way to show love. Sometimes people
do experience things together. They you know, they go to
(06:29):
a movie together, they go to dinner together, or they
just ordering food and sit on the couch. So I
think it also is important to communicate with your partner whoever,
how you show love and how you want to be
shown love. That doesn't mean if the get flowers, we're
not gonna be grateful. Of course we're going to be grateful.
But I think it's important to know your partner, know
how you both experience, you know, and show love and
(06:51):
show love. Wow. All right, so y'all be encouraged on
this day. You know, it's not the end all, be all.
And guess what if you got it wrong today, you
got our fault. It's not our fault, and you've got
and you've got the rest of the year to make
some adjustments and make corrections. And please know that you
(07:15):
are loved, regardless if you've got a flower or a
heart shaped candy box today. Okay, I promise you because
the four of us that are sitting here on this
recording producers and our guest doctor Z, we are folks
that know you are loved. All right. All right, So,
speaking of love and this month of Love, I wanted
(07:37):
to speak to you about this word that has been
circulating the planet. Not worm, It's a statement or term
called love bombing. Yes, is it just on Valentine's Day
where it starts? But what is this phenomenon? Yeah, so
(07:58):
love bombing is a very um so it's thrown around.
We know this on social media a lot. But um,
love bombing is a very common practice by somebody who
has narcissistic personality disorder, whereby definitely does not just a
cur on Valentine's Day. In fact, if you're with a
narcissist on Valentine's Day is likely going to be a
(08:20):
day where there's an argument where you are specifically given
something that they know you don't like or don't want,
so that you can then appear ungrateful and an argument
can start or they forget about it altogether. On purpose.
So love bombing is a deliberate tactic. Yes, they know
what they're doing. Where when you start dating somebody initially,
(08:43):
and I will start by saying that people often think
that narcissists go for people who are weak, who are dependent, needy, clingy,
that is not true. In fact, narcissists tends to and
prefer to go for people who are secure, who are
you know, have something to offer them, are successful or outspoken, attractive,
(09:07):
because it's higher for them to knock you down, and
they get more supply and more reinforcement from knocking somebody
down that's really high up. They appear after a while
to be dependent and maybe weak and and you know,
and and can't speak off for themselves because the narcissists
has broken them down so much. But love bombing we
(09:29):
are all you and me, everyone, We are all susceptible
to love bombing. Why because it feels really freaking good.
So you'll go on a date with somebody, let's say,
And if you are making a blanket statement here, and
I know there's gonna people that are listening and saying,
well I did I met my soul mate on date one? Great?
But you're like in the point zero zero one percent category.
(09:49):
When you go on a date with somebody and you
start dating someone, doesn't matter how you meet them. If
in the first couple of months of dating you here
you are my soul mate, run because here's why. You
don't even know on a first date, their middle name,
what their favorite food is, what kind of music they like,
(10:10):
what kind of movies they like, what they're you know,
what their favorite place to go. If you have no
idea about them as a human being, how on earth
do you know that's your soul mate? You don't, so
you will hear things like you're my soul mate? Where
have you been all my life? It's like we have
our own language. No one gets me like you. I've
(10:31):
never felt this way before. This is just there's something here,
you know. That's not to say you're not going to
have an immediate connection with someone. Of course, that happens
all the time their sexual chemistry. This is different. This
feels like a tidal wave. This feels like a fairy tale,
like ripped out of Hollywood. It's too good to be true.
(10:54):
So it's this constant checking in and texting which feels
so good. Is attention. It's the sex is amazing, and
the gifts and the vacations and the dinners, and they're
introducing you to all their I'll say this lightly, all
their quote friends. You find that very early on you
(11:15):
are talking about your deepest, darkest, vulnerable moments, and there's
a reason for that. You seem to connect on these
really deep levels, and it appears to move really fast,
really really fast, talking about your kids names. On date
number three, you're talking about where you want to move.
You're driving around, pointing to a house and saying, I
(11:37):
want that house. So the perfect example of this, I get, Um,
this is an old movie. Um, what is it called?
With jaylo Enough? Did you ever see that movie? And
I can't say that I have. Okay, it's with Jennifer Lopez.
It's so good and it is probably one of the
best movies I have ever seen. It depicts love bombing
to eight. It's excellent. High recommends anyone listening to definitely
(12:01):
watch this. So you know, they're they're driving around the
neighborhood and she says, I love this house. Next thing,
you know, he buys it for her. It's like all
this just it's too perfect, and what happened The purpose
of all of this is to suck you in so
much so that getting out almost feels impossible, and they
(12:22):
will get your vulnerabilities out of you so that later
on they kind of stored away so that later on
they know your weaknesses, they know your hot buttons, they
know how to get you. So maybe you get into
an argument and they say to you, don't talk to
me like that, I'm not your father, or something like
that where they know that's something that's a hot button
for you, and you're you're stuck, You're you're trapped, and
(12:45):
so they will use it and then they kind of switch,
so they know what they're doing. This is something that
they know. It is a deliberate strategy. The tricky thing
becomes when they switch, right, let's say, slowly, they start
to give you these digs like, uh, you know, Michelle,
I don't your friend Jamie. I'm surprised your friends with her,
(13:07):
You guys don't really I don't know if I trust her.
I have to be honest with you, I'm not. I'm
not sure if I trust her. I know your friends like,
I'm not sure. Just be careful or are your parents
always that involved in your life? Like you really should
start saying no to them. They slowly start to isolate
you from people because they want to make it so
that you are unable to have the support necessary to
(13:30):
tell people about the abuse, so that you don't have
anyone objective to bounce this stuff off of. So our
love bombers generally narcissist or can a person that is
not a narcissist be a love bomber? So great questions.
So they are narcissists, yes, However, there are times where
(13:50):
people I see this a lot with people who have
a d h J. So in the beginning, they may
you know, come on really really strong because for whatever
is and it's like, you know, their filter is not
really there, or their their behavior tends to be a
bit more impulsive. They tend to get like really into
it and then they kind of it's like they do
with kind of hobbies, like really really into something, and
(14:11):
then they stop, and then they get into something else
and they stop. So that can look like love bombing,
but the underlying function of it is very different. People
can love bomb all the time, but the purpose of
them love bombing may just be they have bad boundaries
or they just got out of something and they're they
really miss being with someone, so they jump into something
(14:32):
really really fast. But it's not with the intention of
manipulating or harming or trapping the other person. Narcissists, you
use love bombing solely as a strategy to get you in,
to suck you in so that you can't get out.
And then when they slowly start to throw those kind
of comments in um and then one day they you
(14:55):
you've cooked dinner, let's say, and it's the same dinner
you cooked the night before, and they tell you they
love cook it again for them because you're so excited
because they loved it, and they tell you it's horrible,
and they throw the plate against the wall and they leave,
and you have no idea what you did. What happens,
and before you know, you're apologizing, but you don't quite
know what you're apologizing for. And so it starts. It's
(15:17):
like they should be apologizing for their response, right, But
that will never happen. They'll never take accountability, and it's
done on purpose. So here you are confused. They make
the rules, arbitrary rules, and then when you think you
figured it out, they change them again. They give you
the style and treatment we don't know what you did.
And the reason why this becomes so damaging and so
(15:39):
tricky is that love bombing stage. They'll start to pepper
it in here and there if they think that you're
going to leave them, if they think that you're figuring
them out, they'll start to pepper and some of that
love bombing, but never to the degree that it was
in the beginning, And that's on purpose. The person you
saw in the beginning does not and never it exists,
(16:00):
and that's the part for people that's extremely traumatic. They
never existed. So when they say I just want to
get back to where it was in the beginning, that
wasn't real. It was on purpose. It was purposely to succuent.
So that's that's love bombing from any narcissists, and that's
the purpose of it. Wow. So what is the difference
(16:23):
between love bombing? Because there I'm having compassion because it's
like there are people their love bombing. But I thought
a part of it was because they were trying to
perform for love. Well, I'll buy her this, her favorite parents,
wi a cell, shoes or in the matching bag to
get her or him to love me. So the difference
(16:47):
is that one is to get the other person to
love them without the intention of harming them. A narcissist
will buy you those things with the intent shin of
sucking you in, But they don't. They don't necessarily care
(17:07):
what your response is. It's just it's a response for them.
They just care about manipulating you enough so that you
feel stuck, and they will do that whatever whatever means
they need to do. So, if they know that you
love shoes in facts, they're going to deliberately do that. Right,
If they know you love vacations, are going to deliberately
do that. Whereas somebody who is trying to perform or
(17:30):
you know, try to win you over. It may not
be the healthiest way to do it, but their intentions
are not to trick you. Okay. So are narcissists rare
so diagnostically from a diagnostic standpoint because they never present
(17:51):
for treatment, because they don't go to therapy, and because
they don't self identify as having narcissistic personality? Are like
a very very few say their self aware narcissists. But
that's a whole different um. It is I believe, and
and people in my field will believe it's grossly underdiagnosed.
So if that is the case, then how do you
(18:12):
do with maybe experiencing love bombing from your average person?
Or I'm like, is that average person just undiagnosed? So
it's somebody is love bombing you, and it's with the
intention to manipulate, and it's very calculated and it's very strategic.
(18:34):
There's gonna be a whole host of other behaviors and
patterns that have existed long before they started love bombing you.
M so love bombing alone is a red flag, but
you know it's gonna be kind of part of a
whole host of other behaviors in addition to that. Okay,
I was I had notes on love bombing versus performing
(18:56):
for love. And when I say performing for love, you
know I don't mean actually getting on stage, but forming
I mean performing for love means I will do this
to get a response or or you might have found
yourself performing for affirmation or approval as a child. I
gotta make sure I get a's so that my mommy
hugs me, because it seems like she hugs me. So
(19:17):
that's that's what I meant performing for Yeah, And I
mean and that that again, it's not that it's healthy
because it's so conditional, right, but you performing meaning you know,
trying to get a's so that your mom will give
you attention. That's not with the purpose of trying to
harm or manipulate your mom. It's to be able to
(19:38):
get you know, to feel good from a parent. Again,
not healthy, but it's not with the intention of It's
not a calculated move to harm somebody to get them
to you know, it feels stuck with you, got it.
I feel like I was like, well, I love bombed,
(19:58):
but I don't know if I could call this person
a narcissist. But a part of me feels like they
were also flexing what they can what they can do
correct to let me know, hey, this is possible, correct
you know? Yeah, I mean, I mean I can't imagine that.
(20:19):
I mean, that's I don't want to say it's human.
But in a way, it's kind of like somebody's into you.
They're attracted to you. They want to show you, they
want to you know, they want to brag a little bit,
they wanna show you what life could be like with them,
and they you know, I get that, and I don't
think that that's always a bad thing. As long as
it doesn't. The differences is with love bombing, it's gonna stop.
(20:40):
You know, when you meet somebody and in the beginning
of the relationship, it's like the honeymoon phase. Everything's great
and everyone's on their best behavior, and then it kind
of fizzles, right, But it doesn't become the complete and
total opposite with with a narcissist, it's it's not even
that it fizzles, it just it is and then it's boom,
like the masks alls off, and it's never back to
(21:02):
that stage. Whereas in a even in an unhealthy relationship,
if it starts to fizzle, you can always say to
each other, Okay, what brought us together in the beginning,
and let's go back to that place that brought us
together in the beginning. With a narcissist, that beginning never
was real, so there's nothing to go back to. M
I was also reading how love bombing, a love bomber
(21:24):
possibly wants a commitment, a rapid commitment. Yes, they want
to snag you, suck you, and they don't want a commitment.
They want you committed to them. There's a difference. They
don't they don't want a commitment to you. They want
you wrapped up in them, they want to take ownership
(21:45):
of you. It's it's very much um. They view people
as objects. They're collectors, the collectors of people. They collect people.
Everybody has a purpose, everybody has a function, and when
that functions up, you're done. Yeah, this says from an
article in Cosmopolitan. Anyone is capable of love bombing, but
(22:08):
it's most often a symptom of narcissistic personality disorder. Not
that you needed confirmation that you're right, because you're you're
an expert in this field. Love Bombing is largely largely
an unconscious behavior. It's about really getting the other person.
Then when they feel like they really got the person
(22:29):
and they feel secure in the relationship, the narcissist typically
switches and becomes very difficult, abusive, or manipulative. So I
agree with half of that. The part that I don't
agree with is that it's an unconscouse. I know it,
I know it, I don't know. It's definitely not. It
is absolutely for the simple fact that when they are
(22:52):
done with you and they go on to the next person,
it is like a playbook. It is the exact same thing.
They will take them to the exact same place as
they took you too. They will do the exact same things,
or they'll do the things you always wanted them to
do but they never did with you, and they'll deliberately
do it with the next person. Blessed all our social
media so that you think they change. I don't think
(23:16):
it's unconscious. I also don't I think this is where
the word gets thrown around. I don't think love bombing
is done by people other than narcissists. Love Bombing inherently
is a deliberate strategy to suck in the other person.
I think sometimes people can look like their love bombing
by like what you said, like you know, buying you
(23:37):
things and wanting that affort, you know, kind of buying
your love in a way. Again, not that it's healthy,
but they're not doing it to manipulate you in to
spit you back out. Okay, all right, there's also about it,
says benign occurrences. You know, if actions match words, then
(23:59):
it's probably not love bombing. And like I said, I
know a lot of this go definitely will go again.
You know your beliefs and I'm sure your experiences experiences,
So how do you feel when you hear this stuff
that I just read, I mean as Cosmopolitan is not
psychology today dot com, Right. I think that people obviously,
(24:24):
you know, based on your your training, your theory throughout
of orientation, how you're all that stuff, people are gonna
look at at every diagnosis differently, in the ideology of
every diagnosis differently. But in my experience and my colleagues
and kind of the the what I based on the
research that I know, it's not a benign occurrence, and
(24:47):
I think we have to be careful with that because
it really invalidates the trauma that survivors have gone through. Absolutely,
So I we have to be careful with that because
love bombing, if you have somebody who is loved bombed
versus somebody who was wined and dying and then it's fizzled,
(25:08):
it's an inherently different experience. I mean, it's the person,
the person is conned, the person is tricked, and then
they're stuck in a life that is horrifically abusive, which
is not the case for somebody who's like wine and
nine and then broken up with It's very different. I'm
(25:30):
literally sitting here reflecting. I was like, I think I
was love bombed. I was sitting here chatting with the
producers telling them what happened. And I think one thing
that turned me off This person one day said good morning,
my love, and I was like, it's July. I met
(25:51):
you in May. Now the reason why I'm trying to
have compassion, empathy, understanding and A labeled this person as
a love bomber, it's because I know they're ready for marriage,
so they may be rushing things along. Yeah, right, What
what do you say to that? So I think that
(26:13):
happens all the time. I think, you know, we don't
want we don't want people to misconstrue someone's affection, uh
their pet names, your love bombing, and then you push
away a relationship or even something that could be maybe
matriculated to just a friendship. You don't want to burn
that absolutely, absolutely, So it's a great question. So what
(26:34):
I what I tell people is that if somebody, like,
if you really care about somebody, whether it's a significant other, friends,
a parent, sibling, if you really care about them, and
they tell you know, or they set a boundary or
they cancel plans on you, you're not going to abuse
them verbally abuse them physically abuse them, sexually abuse them,
(26:55):
cut them off. That's not going to be your response.
You're going to respect them. Now. Maybe you'll be angry
because you had plans for a month, right, or maybe
you're gonna be annoyed or maybe even get into an argument.
But with somebody who's loved bombing you. One of the
ways that I tell people to kind of test this
out because you're right, you don't want to push push
this way, And this happens with people who had been
(27:16):
in our senistic relationships. Will say to me, you know, like,
I don't know if this person's love bomb me. They
held the door for me. I'm like, okay, let's take
a step back right there. Nothing's wrong with holding a
door for you. You have to look at the behavior
in context. What else is happening. So here's it's never
gonna be just one thing. Here's what I tell people.
See what happens if you're not sure. See what happens
(27:38):
if you set a boundary with them. See what happens
if you cancel plans last minute. See what happens if
you tell them no, I don't want you to come in.
Tell See what happens if you tell them. You want
to take your time. Things are moving too fast, because
you know as well as I do. If you're really
into somebody and they say to you, I really like you,
I'm really into I just let's just take it a
(28:00):
little bit slower. Maybe you have kids, like you don't
want to be introducing to the kids, or you just
got out of something. It doesn't even matter what you're reason.
You could have been single for the last twenty years,
maybe like you know, you're in school, whatever the case
may be. If the person responds to that boundary with disrespect,
it looks like verbal abuse, emotional abuse, physical abuse, or
(28:22):
just silent treatment cut you out. That's a very good indicator,
such a good indicator. Or if they keep pushing back,
like keep pushing your boundaries, they don't respect your boundaries.
And there's even if that's not love bombing. Even if
it's not, you still don't want somebody like that. So
I caution people with the labeling too much, because look
(28:42):
at the behaviors. Do you really even want that behavior.
Let's say they're not a narcissi. Do you really want
someone who's gonna constantly disrespect your boundaries and your space? No,
just right, And you gotta look at not only just
dating on this one day, just look at like you said,
do I want this forever? Possibly? Should they propose to me? Right?
Is this the quality of life that I that I desire? Yeah?
(29:05):
Because being in these types of relationships, I really believe
they have an effect on your health, Oh dent, they
do not just your mental health, but your physical health.
High rate of autoimmune disease, poor sleep, heart disease, high
risk for cancer because you're your nervous system is so disregulated,
(29:27):
which means that everything in your body, your heart rate,
your blood pressure, the dopamine levels, your Sara Tonin levels,
everything is out of whack. And so yes, one affects
your physical health on wo Yeah. Wow. So if you
know somebody that's got some recurring health problems, check their relationships.
I'm just playing, No, I mean you're not so, I
(29:50):
mean you want to check their mental health and their
their their current relationships because it's a chronic stress. Are
also narcissist will deliberately mess with your sleep, so you know,
if you're sleep deprived, you are not well in any way.
They pray on the week. Very very interesting, very interesting,
(30:14):
and I know those are y'all listening today? You are
preparing to present your loved one with their gifts. And
if there is a love bomber listening Dr Jamie and
they feel attacked, what do you have to say to them?
I say, we see you. But is their hope? Is
(30:40):
their hope for that type of behavior for the narcissist,
for the one on the receiving end the narcissist. I'll
just put it this way. It is extremely rare that
a narcissist will ever change their behavior. Mm hmmm. Because
a part of me is like, man, these words are
floating around and people are misusing the words. But if
(31:02):
there's one person that happens to be listening and you're like,
that could be me, and there's a root. I believe
there's a route to every behavior. To me, narcissists are
very insecure. There's a lot of shame. They have a
lot of shame, longstanding shame. The problem is that if
that shame is ever exposed or they feel exposed, that's
(31:25):
where that narcissistic rage comes in. That's when a lot
of the abuse starts. Um, that's when you know, the
silent treatments start, the abandonment starts the other person. So
and I agree, and I believe that, but let's get
to the root of what you're ashamed about. Let's get
to the root of what you're insecure about. Because I
believe change behavior and a change person and a change heart.
(31:49):
I believe there's hope there if you If I don't know,
if maybe if the person on the receiving again has
maybe been in a lot of counseling and therapy and
can muster up the strength. Not saying it's your job
to get that person to help to me, and I'm
not saying that, but I'm just wanted if a person
that's listening that's actually a narcissist or can say mm hmmm.
(32:11):
So if they're saying that, if they're saying that they're
not a narcissist, if they're saying that that, yeah, I
know this. This is the only diagnosis like in the
world that I will ever say, yes, there's a reason
why they do what they do. Absolutely is it their fault? No?
(32:33):
Will they change? Highly unlikely. And and in fact, if
somebody listen, there's two there's narcissistic behavior, but then there's
also people who demonstrate narcissistic patterns and they think that's
more what you're probably talking about. People that demonstrate narcissistic
patterns may not realize. So if I said to you,
you know, you did this, this, this, and you really
(32:53):
hurt me, and maybe you weren't aware that you were
doing it, but when I tell you that you hurt me,
you're like, well, wait, I don't I don't want to
hurt you. Let me work on this. That's not a narcissist.
It may be someone who's they've learned patterns that resemble that,
but but they're able to change them, and narcissist would
(33:14):
never stop and think maybe I should stop doing this.
They think that they are entitled to act that way.
So you're right. People who do have those thoughts will
absolutely they will be able to with insight and awareness
and help and therapy. But with the narcissist in therapy,
(33:36):
what ends up happening is they manipulate the sessions and
if the therapist kind of starts to gently call them
out on it, they they will never come back. So
it's really tricky, so that it sounds like there ain't
no hope for one. I don't want to say that. Um,
it's just the change is really tough. There's there's people
(33:58):
that will say their self aware and nars assess and
they're aware of what they do, but it's a different
story when they actively in the moment, pause and choose
not to do that behavior. Okay, it's really hard for
them because that's shame that I was talking about. Is
is really tough for them? Okay, yeah, I can now
(34:18):
wait to study more on narcissists that are self aware
that they you know that I'll send you you will, yeah, ok.
Because what they do is they analyze narcissistic behavior from
their standpoint and they will tell you exactly what the
person is doing. That doesn't mean they still don't do it,
(34:40):
but they are aware of why the person is doing it.
So it's actually it's interesting to hear from the other
from their perspective. So I can definitely, I can. I'll
send that to you. It's interesting. Please do, please do.
And this is so educational because I believe so many
people want love, even if you say that I want
to be in a relationship, but I believe everybody desires connection,
(35:04):
to feel seen, understood and all that good stuff. And
so this is the episode we're gonna call this the
looking Out episode. We are looking out for you. Now
you touched a little bit on narcissism or or a
lot because this this topic love bombing and narcissism, they
go hand in hand. But I would love for you
to come back and let's really dive into that term
(35:26):
of narcissism and possible even um gaslighting and what all
that entails, because that is serious. And this season of
Checking In, I'm looking forward to people's breakthroughs relationally, financially
and emotionally, and thank you for being a part of that.
Thank you everyone having Happy Valentine. We will, we will,
(35:49):
we will. I'll hit you later and let you know
how it went. Um, And to everybody listening, seriously, happy
Valentine's Day. And please know that you I'm a shoot.
You're loved, y'all. I promise you. I try to find
some balance in this conversation today because it is Valentine's Day,
(36:12):
but I guess I just wanted to give everybody some
intel on what to look for today. So if you're
going out with somebody you've never met, please don't blame
us for the side eyes that you might give the
person that you're on a date with tonight. And those
(36:34):
of you that have been in a relationship for a
while now, maybe you've gotten past, you know, looking for
the red flags and all that good stuff. So guess what,
you're good to go. You're good to go, So listen.
Thank you all for listening, and have an amazing Valentine's Day. Alright,
keep it kids, alright, love y'all by Checking In with
(37:25):
Michelle Williams is a production of I Heart Radio and
The Black Effect. For more podcasts from I heart Radio,
visit the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
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