April 19, 2023 • 50 mins
Michelle and Dr. Z are back again! This time around, Dr. Z dives into her specialty - Narcissistic Personality Disorder. She clearly differentiates having narcissistic traits and actually being a narcissist. She also shares how to deal with the narcissistic people in your life. CHECK IN to this episode to get a better understanding of a term that is so loosely used!
For more on Dr. Zuckerman, visit https://www.drjaimezuckerman.com/
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The Black Effect Podcast Network will be making history again with the first Black Effect Podcast Festival taking place on April 22nd in Atlanta. Checking in With Michelle Williams will be hitting the live podcast stage with 85 South Show, WHOREible Decisions, Big Facts, Reasonably Shady, and many more. Make sure to grab your tickets today at BlackEffect.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. We have heard this word narcissism.
(00:21):
We've heard the word narcissist, but did you know that
it's also a personality disorder. Yes, a person can be
diagnosed by a psychiatrist and it is called narcissistic personality disorder. Well,
we are going to find out so much more on
this upcoming episode of Checking In. Everybody today is a
(00:44):
great day. It's a great day, first of all because
guess what, we are alive, We are present, we are breathing,
and we have another day to check in. The Explore
page on Instagram is amazing because when someone posts thing
that gets a lot of engagement and attention, it pops up.
And I'm so glad that doctor Jamie Zuckerman is one
(01:08):
of those folks who popped up on my feed. Started
following her instantly. She's probably like, what in the world, Yes, yes, yes,
She's a nationally known expert on narcissism, a narcissistic abuse
relationship coach, and licensed clinical psychologist, and appears as the
(01:28):
go to expert for local Philadelphia Fox, CBS, ABC and more.
Please welcome doctor Jamie Zuckerman to Checking In.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
That was a heck of an introduction.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Listen, my folks, Honey, Angela and Samantha here at checking In.
We do not play about our guests.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
I want to come on here every day and here.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
We'll give it to you. We'll copy and paste it
so the next time you go someplace they have this
same introduction. You said, you've been sick.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
It was some weird viral vocal I don't even know
what it was, but it was. It was. It was bad.
It was bad.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Were you about to say vocal paralysis?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
They didn't say that specifically, but it was some nerve
damage like within my throat muscle tip. But for me
not to be able to talk, I mean, I'm sure
some people were thrilled, but it was really frustrating because
I couldn't do my work. So you know, I'm sure
my kids were happy, but it was it was a
real pain. So slowly started to come back, but it
(02:31):
was it was.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
It was nuts. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Like you said, I mean, we use our voice for
a living, yeah, so when we can't use it for
one reason or another, especially sickness, that can definitely have
an effect. You know, how did you go through that.
You're a psychologist, You're a mental health expert, so I'm
definitely going to ask how are you, as an expert
(02:57):
handling something that could literally have a person going going
to a depression or an anxiety fit, panic attack, anxiety attack.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Absolutely had anxiety about this, not gonna lie. I think,
you know, I look at it kind of as it's
it's a normal response to a very abnormal situation. You know,
I think it would be weird if I wasn't anxious
about it, to be honest with you, because in my head,
I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I have to cancel patients,
I have to cancel appearances, and what if I do it?
(03:28):
But then my voice just checks out right in the
middle of it, because that's what would happen. So yeah,
it was very anxiety provoking for sure. And then you
feel guilty because you know, you schedule all these things
and you have to cancel on people, which I hate
canceling on people. You know, everybody works hard, everybody changes
their schedules. So yeah, it's stressful for sure. So anxiety
(03:49):
absolutely one percent.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Doctor Jamie, Thank you so much. For saying that anxiety
is a normal response to something abnormal.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Oh yes, yes, And.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Then secondly you said you would have been concerned if
you didn't have anxiety. Yes, I want to park there
for a minute. So when a person feels like they
didn't have anxiety to something that they should normally have
anxiety with, what would you say is going on with
that person?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
So I think anxiety gets a bad reputation, so I'll
start with that. You know, if we didn't have anxiety,
you and I would cross the street and not look
both ways. We just wouldn't think too, we wouldn't care to.
So anxiety keeps us safe, It motivates us, It gives
us information about our world. Too much anxiety can be debilitating.
But no anxiety at all when it probably would make
(04:38):
sense to can give us this kind of numbness or
this apathy not caring. Really, So if it was something
significant and somebody wasn't anxious and it wasn't just that
they had really really solid coping skills, I would look
at it as avoidance. What are they not really dealing
with to allow themselves to sit with that discomfort? Are
they doing something to avoid that discomfort? And that's when
(04:59):
they like overworking comes in or drinking or you know
that kind of stuff to avoid what's really going on.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yes, yes, I know men in particular, someone I know,
you know, suffered something very traumatic and they've just been working, working, working, working, working,
work and working, and they don't like to say if
you say how you're doing, they're not going to say,
you know, I'm a little anxious because they believe that
you're bringing something into existence. That's right, but it's a
(05:30):
normal thing. I get what they're saying. They want to
stay in that positive mind.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Oh so sure we all do, of course. But I
look at it like this. I look at it as
like a wave. Right. So if you're in the ocean
and you see a wave coming, no matter what you do,
that wave is going to crash, right, no matter what
you do. So you have two choices. You can stand
there and be prepared for it to wash over you.
(05:56):
Put your feet in the ground, stand as you know,
tall as you can, you know it's coming, Let it
wash over you and then it's gone. Or you can
stand there with your hands against it, struggling with all
your might, using up all your energy, ignoring all the
stuff you need to do, ignoring your likes, your family, whatever,
exhausting yourselves, and it's gonna knock you over anyway. And
(06:17):
it's gonna knock you over, and you're gonna tumble, and
it's gonna be a hell of a lot harder to
get up than if you stand there and let it
kind of crash over you. So either way, you're gonna
feel it. It's just a matter of how you want
to feel it.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
That's so good, doctor Z. Yesterday I slammed my hand
in the door. Oh and could you imagine if I
tried to act like it wasn't throbbing it it's swollen.
I even thought it was disfigured a little bit, but
I think it was just because it was swollen. But
if someone were to ask me how you're doing in
(06:48):
that moment, I've gotta be like, my head isn't pain,
that is throbbing versus oh, I'm good, everything's fine right now.
There are people who are we really ready for that
answer though my hand is throbbing, I'm in a lot
of pain because some people don't know how to handle
(07:11):
that real truth. We are accustomed to the high pitched
Oh no, I'm okay, everything's fine, correct, and then that
other person goes on about their business. It's right, you know,
versus like if I really say, my hand is throbbing
and I'm in pain, I'm curious to like what that
other person's response would be to my immediate pain. So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
I mean, and I feel like too with that. It
depends on who's around you. If it's somebody that knows
you well, you know, and they know that you need help,
they'll they'll maybe keep pushing you to get it right,
they won't let you go there. But if it's somebody
who doesn't really know you, and you're giving out this
vibe that you're good, you don't need anything, you're great,
you're not going to get the help and it's probably
difficult for you to, you know, for people to ask
for help, but then you become more isolated.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
It's so good, that's so good. We have had another
doctor or two we've discussed narcissism on checking in, but
you know, it's good to go deeper and deeper, especially
with someone where yes, you are a licensed clinical psychologist,
but you decided you're kind of just this is your
(08:17):
specific area of expertise in practice MM hmm.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I mean I still obviously see people with anxiety because
you actually comes from that. Yeah, okay, it's kind of
hard to separate the two.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Okay, So relationship issues, depression, other mood disorders. You also,
in private practice still see people that are that grief
loss exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Okay, Yeah, but this has kind of become Yeah, I
guess a bit of a specialty over the years. So
it's fascinating. I think it's and I think it's very
much needed. I'll say, okay, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Is it from personal experience or was it a lot
of core people coming to you and you're like, there's
a common thread of about twenty people I'm seeing that
are dealing with.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, ah, okay, So it was a combination of things.
One was and we went into private practice many years ago.
I would see this this pattern exactly like you said,
this pattern of people mostly women that I was seeing
at the time, but men also coming in with this
same almost blueprint of relationship issues, and you know, and
(09:25):
I would listen to it and I would hear it,
and you could tell it was narcissism. But in our minds,
the way we were training narcisism is so rare. It's
so rare, it's like such a small percentage of the population. However,
it's also because nobody with narcissic personality sort of steps
foot in treatment raally maybe one percent. They never really
(09:46):
make change, even if they go to therapy. It's extremely
short lived. The change is very is very minimal, and
so the patterns just keep going and going going. So
I was seeing a lot of women who are experiencing
these relationships, and then I just started kind of getting
into it a little bit more on Instagram and on
social media, and the feedback I was getting was one
(10:09):
of like like a oh my god, this is my life,
Thank you so much. And I realized how many people
this story they felt like was theirs. It was the
same story with different people. And then I personally, my closest,
closest friend at this time was going through a divorce
with somebody who was a narcissist, and I unfortunately had
(10:30):
a front row seat to it, and it was absolutely
it was horrifying. And so I think that coupled with
that and the social media awareness of it, it just
really kind of grew from there and I realized that,
you know, one of the things that was missing was
almost this preventative medicine in a sense that once you're
in it, it's really tough to get out of it,
(10:52):
and it's a different type of focus. But if we
can get the information out there to prevent people from
getting in it in the first place, yes, then I
feel like we really can make some change. So that's
where that started.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
That's so good. And because we're hearing this, are people
using the word wrong yes.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Okay, yes all the time? And infurious name.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Now what okay? You can either answer one of them.
What is a narcissist or what is narcissism? Which one
is best to answer.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
So narcissism can be like, you know, people have narcissistic traits.
Let's say, so you know, sometimes let's say you're in
your area of expertise whatever that may be, right, like
if you're an athlete or you're a teacher or whatever
it is, in those moments like you know what you're doing,
(11:48):
you're in charge, you got it together, like you you're
the expert, and so you're Narcissistic traits not bad, just
they come out more it's what makes you kind of
motivated and good at what you do. The difference is
that when you're doing something that's not in that domain
where you know you don't have all the information or
you know that you need to learn or be objective,
you're able to reel it back. Right. That's healthy personality style.
(12:13):
So that narcissism, you know, it has such a bad
wrap now. But narcissistic, I mean you say somebody is narcissistic.
People will say someone's narcissistic, excuse my language, just if
they're like an asshole. But that's like not the same thing.
Somebody who has narcissistic personality disorder is not the same
(12:33):
thing as somebody who comes off as cocky or conceited
or you know, chronic infidelity or you know abuse. It's
a very specific type of abuse and a very specific
type of personality style. So you know, saying someone's a
narcissist really waters down what it really is, and it
(12:56):
really invalidates the experiences of survivors who have gone through
narcisstic abuse. I even see this when I post things
on like TikTok or Instagram about you know, five things
that a narcissist may do. When somebody will say my
ex does number one, two and four does that mean
they're a narcissist? And so I even have to be
careful when I post things to let people know these
(13:17):
aren't just behaviors. You don't use any of this to
diagnose anybody, because any one of us could do any
of this occasionally. A personality disorder is when this is
your entire kind of persona in all domains of your life,
not just with one person some of the time.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Got it? Got it? So as far as a person
that has traits, so the traits are they're they're in you.
Traits are DNA.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Sometimes not all this time?
Speaker 1 (13:47):
They could be learned these I was about to say,
certain traits come from our mother and father. Correct, Okay,
so right, got that? So maybe the a person that procrastinates,
is that something that was learned or is that a
trait from the mother and father? I guess if you
get where I'm going. If a person has narcissistic traits,
(14:07):
could their parents? Could one of their parents have those traits?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yes, but absolutely not necessary to. They could have other
things where the child, in order to get through their upbringing,
develop certain strategies in response to those parental traits so
that they could get through life. So For example, we'll
use procrastination as an example. So let's say that you
have a parent who is extremely controlling, extremely perfectionistic, expects
(14:38):
their child to like, you have all a's, Why don't
you have all a pluses? You won this? Why didn't
you win all of them? You know you weigh one
hundred pounds, Why aren't you weigh ninety nine ouns? So
just really on you, really strict, so that child could
grow up thinking nothing they ever do is write right,
and so they have this constant fear of failure and
letting people down is swooting, so they may overcompensate for
(15:01):
that by trying so hard throughout their life to be perfectionistic.
The problem is is that perfectionists have this horrible fear
of failure, and so what they do. The reason why
they procrastinate is because if they don't start it well,
then they can never really fail because the control was
on them whether to start it or not. And so
you end up having procrastination and perfectionism kind of go
(15:24):
hands in hand. So that would be a perfect example
of how the parent may not be a procrastinator, but
by coping with that, the child becomes one. Over time.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
It becomes one. Okay, did you find over time? Because
everybody that's going to be listening to this, it's probably
going to be wondering, was I ever in relationship with
a narcissist? Was my parent a narcissist? I found that
in one relationship that I was in, I felt like
(15:54):
what was happening was so hard to explain. I couldn't
get words to it, but I just recall how it
made me feel. Now that we're getting some more awareness
in language, I'm like, God, bless this person's soul. I
(16:14):
believe underneath all the rubble, I believe they're a good person.
But I'm like, I wonder if that that was narcissism
because it's it's almost hard to explain and all I
all I remember, All I could do was just tell
people how something was making me feel.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yeah, very common. And the reason a lot of times
why you can't explain it for two reasons. One because
if you actually say it out loud, it sounds absolutely crazy,
like there's no way, and then you'll doubt yourself like
that can't be what's happening, Like wow, am I a
bad person for even thinking that way? That's one, and
two if it's narcissistic abuse. It's done in such a methodical, calculated,
(16:56):
purposeful way so that the person they're abusing isn't able
to even identify what's going on because they're either isolated
from other people or they're just constantly on edge, constantly confused, scared,
and so they can't even put it into words, nor
do they even want to.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Wow, do you think that there is still so much
to learn as it relates to the word narcissism, Oh,
for sure, you feel like, Okay, depression and anxiety, we
kind of, yeah, but narcissism is just something kind of
being unearthed.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Then, yeah, because I think for a long time, you know,
I think with social media it came out a lot
more with you know, obviously have to be cautious who
you're listening to and what information you're getting, but when
people started sharing their stories, that was when it really
became kind of more out in the open. Because survivors
(17:53):
of narcissistic abuse are so isolated emotionally physically that they
don't ever talk about it, and they question whether it's
even real or not, and so when they hear other
people talking about it, it's like this moment of empowerment
and they have this like epiphany like, oh my god,
that's my story. Wait, I'm not alone, I'm not crazy.
(18:15):
So I think hearing other people's stories was so helpful,
especially during the pandemic. It was so helpful for people
to hear this stuff because people were home in these
relationships with no way out. And that's when it really
started to I think kind of people were talking about
it more and more.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Yeah, how does a person know if what they're dealing with,
If what they're dealing with is narcissism and their partner,
are they just having a bad day?
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Excellent question. So somebody who has narcissistic personality disorder won't
It won't just be a bad day. They will be
purposely manipulative, no empathy, a abusive verbally, physically, sexually, financially,
long term. This isn't something that's just you know, we
(19:08):
wake up, we're in a bad mood, like we yell
at our kids, or we yell at our significant other,
we cancel plans and our friends. That's not this. This
is a pervasive pattern throughout their entire life, across all relationships. Now,
they may seem extremely charming in public, they may seem
extremely giving, philanthropic, They may seem just wonderful, larger than life.
(19:33):
Everybody loves them in public, but behind closed doors are
horrifically abusive.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
They just want to be seen giving. Yes, you know,
they'll show up to your birthday party to let everybody
feel like it's for show. It's performance.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
It's a performance. It's a facade, it's a performance. They
are amazing actress. And so here's the thing I'll say.
You know, people will ask you know, well, how do
you know? And so if you listen carefully, people say, well,
they have no control over their anger. They have no
control over that. Yeah, they do. Narcissists one hundred percent
do because they can turn it off and be so
(20:15):
charming and sweet. But then you get home from an event,
you get home from dinner, and the mask falls off
and now they are angry, ragey, physically violent. But if
somebody were to knock on the door, oh hi, how
are you, and they switch it on and off so fast.
So somebody doesn't have control over their emotions, is not
(20:36):
capable of doing that. They know exactly what they're doing,
so you have to. So it's when you set a
boundary with them when you say no to them. When
people are dating in the beginning and they're questioning, is
this person I'm dating? And narcissists, they always say to them,
cancel plans with them. See what they do, Say no
to them, tell them you want to take it a
(20:56):
little slower. See what they do, y'all.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Doctor Z says, Narcissists don't show up for you because
they care. They show up so people think that they care.
She says, I always tell my patients to look at
the function of the behavior, the underlying why someone does
what they do. With NPD, which is a narcissistic personality
(21:21):
disorder which must be diagnosed. Ladies and gentlemen, that function
will always be because it gives them something. It actually
isn't even about you. You're the vehicle through which their
needs are met. Yes, oh see, then I want to
dig to what unmet needs as a child, when unmet
for this to kind of morph into this and it's
(21:45):
amazing that it is called a personality disorder.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah, I mean, the one very fascinating thing about narcissic personality,
or I will say this. You look at depression, you
look at anxiety, you look at my polar disorder, schizophrenia,
even some of the other personality sorders like sworderline personality disorder.
They can all manifest very differently in different people, different ages,
(22:09):
you know, like even where you are in the world.
I mean, they manifest differently. I get anxious or frustrated,
I start to get migraines. You know, somebody else may
get stomaching, somebody else may isolate, So everybody experiences it differently.
Narcissistic personality disorder doesn't matter who you are, where you are,
where you come from. The behaviors are identical, and they
(22:30):
are such nuanced, small behaviors that it's amazing that it's
it's all the same across the board. It's a very
distinct blueprint.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
But what happens then is that once people start to
see these blueprints, they're able then to predict. And when
you're able to predict somebody's behavior, then you start to
feel empowered because then you realize it's not about you.
It actually has nothing to do with you, which goes
back to what you were just saying, that it's just
we're just the objects, interchangeable objects.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
He ain't something I say, you said it, this was
this was in your post from January twenty five, You're good,
You're good, good, y'all, She's amazing. She also says you
learn way more about a person at the end of
a relationship then at the start. We could go on
and on and on. Yes, she said, this applies to friendship,
(23:22):
significant others, coworkers, family, all of it applies. Speaking of family,
let's talk about the possibility of narcissistic parents, let's do that.
I find that when a person goes to therapy and
gets some counseling, you begin to get language for what
(23:42):
you're going through, why, and how you cope with what
you're going through. But then it's always that geniagram that
has acts. So what youse your parents? Who are their siblings?
Who are they? You gotta go back to the root
of a lot of even my behavior has a root.
(24:03):
We're not saying our parents are the cause of how
we respond to situations. So no, that's not what we're doing.
We now blaming parents. But I find that when you
get counseling, you are able to see your parents through
a very educational lenses, having compassion, like, oh man, so
(24:25):
they were going through this, man, I hate that maybe
their childhood wasn't the best and they didn't get love,
so you begin to have compassion like man instead of
the blame and anger for me turned into compassion like man.
Right now, ladies and gentlemen that are listening to today,
And by the way, and I'm prefacing, I'm saying, I'm
(24:46):
prefacing all of this because of what therapy did for
me to recognize my own parents' behaviors and their struggles
inter personally and how they were as parents. These questions,
these next questions I'm about to ask have nothing to
do with me, like, oh my gosh, let's determine who
was narcissistic.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, But I just wanted.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
People to know context wise of what therapy did for
me as parents, and what therapy is probably doing for
other people who are probably getting help being in a
narcissistic relationship with the romantic relationship. And then you find out, man,
my dad or my mom, or you might an uncle
(25:25):
or aunt somebody that raised you, you know, possibly has
this disorder. Doctor Jamie mm hmm, yep.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
So one of the things you'll find is that when
you if you are in therapy and you're kind of
either trying to figure out if you're in a narcisstic relationship,
or if I'm working with people to leave or post separation,
because the abuse continues even after you're separated. What people
find is that the pattern that they're experiencing in this
(25:56):
abusive relationship is either something that feel familiar to them
or something that that is, you know, in an odd way, comforting.
Now I don't say comforting and familiar because they like it,
but comforting and familiar because they've seen this before and again.
It doesn't have to be you know, if you're with
somebody's narcissist, that means a parent was a narcissist. It
(26:18):
can be just you know, you could have had a
parent that was neglectful, and so your strategies, you know,
developed into well, I'm not going to let anyone ever
neglect me or leave me, so I'm going to put
up this wall. And then later in life that translates
into narcissism. So, you know, whatever the case may be.
But people will start to identify patterns in They are
very big on patterns of behavior, not just the you know,
(26:41):
tell me how you're weak was, but like, I want
to know the patterns of behavior. I want to know
what you're doing and when you're doing it and so
and why you're doing it. So they'll see these patterns
that they have in their dynamics of this relationship. They'll
realize that the reason why it's familiar to them is
because they know it. And our brains, generally speaking, are
tend to be lazy. We like familiarities. Human beings, we
(27:03):
really are resistant to change, and so when something is
familiar to us, we gravitate towards it, even if it's unhealthy.
And you know, we may realize that we're repeating patterns
that are familiar to us but clearly are not healthy.
And so that awareness of that, I think is a
really big big push for people excuse me, in therapy,
(27:25):
because it helps them to identify that what's going on
in front of them is something that's not their it's
not their fault, and that they have the ability to
change their pattern. Because that's the wonderful thing about patterns
is that patterns are learned behaviors, and if you learn something,
you can unlearn it. It may take a really long
time to pull back layers, but you can unlearn it.
(27:48):
You just have to really be willing to do it.
And it's going to be uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
That's so good. That's so good. So I guess, how
does a person recognize a narcissistic parent and healthy boundaries?
You encourage healthy boundaries even with parents. You have a
relationship road map workshop where you help people recognize patterns
(28:13):
and you help people to set boundaries. That's kind of
new for people that I'm learning, Like, wait a minute,
I can set boundaries with family members.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yes, yes, yes, So we grow up a lot of
people and I'm throwing myself in this too. We grow
up thinking that we are not allowed to have boundaries
with our parents because our parents are our parents, and
there's a level of respect you do not cross, and
you know, and it's just kind of how it was.
I laugh about this all the time. I have My
(28:44):
middle one is seven and she is as sassy as
I mean I have never seen. And I look at
her and I'm thinking in my head, if I ever
did anything like that, yeah, oh my god, I mean forget, forget,
forget it, forget it like you forget, and so it
would have been grounded for a century. So we think
that we can't set boundaries with their parents because there
(29:06):
are parents. But here's the thing is that it doesn't
matter who they are. You, as a human being, have
a right in this world to set boundaries. You have
a right as a human being. I don't care who
they are, to let people know how you are willing
to be treated and how you will not tolerate to
(29:27):
be treated. What they do with that information, that's on them.
We can't change anyone else. But we have the right
as human beings to let people know what we're willing
to take and not take.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
So a lot of us we don't set boundaries, nor
do we may even walk away from certain things, all
because we're worried about their reaction, correct versus what you
just said. That's not on you. Their reaction is not
on you at this point, y'all. If you know you
are in something unhealthy and abusive, the worry should not
(30:03):
be about them and their reaction. It's got to be
about your freedom and at this point, y'all, quality of
life that you decide that you deserve to have.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
I love that absolutely absolutely. And I'll have people come
in all this day and they'll say, you know, doctor Z,
I set a boundary, but it didn't work. And I'll say, well,
what do you mean it didn't work? Well, my mom
still did X, Y and Z, and my dad still
did X, Y and Z. But that's not how you
decide whether a boundary worked or not. The boundary is
did you set it or not? Well? Yes, I did? Okay,
(30:35):
Well what they do in response to that is not
of your concern. Especially with parents. You're going to feel
like you're doing something wrong. You're going to feel guilty,
and you're going to feel bad. You need to set
the boundary out at the same exact time. Feel those emotions.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Now set the boundary, and now what I found. You know,
just with people that I've loved, you do it in
love is a way I think, just for now you
can be flat footed, be factual, you know, but in
setting the boundary, especially with loved one with parents, I
(31:11):
personally wouldn't suggest cursing them out and no throwing pots
and pans.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Nah, no, no, correct, correct, that's not neutral. I always
tell people to strive for neutral, like neutrality, which means
not rolling your eyes, not ignoring, not throwing pots and pans,
not screaming, but neutral, neutral tone, neutral words, no opinions,
no anything but fact just neutral, because then you kind
(31:37):
of lose sight of everything.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Wow, you're amazing. You're amazing. One person knows that I
am talking to you today. I always love telling people, Hey,
I'm talking with someone and they're expert in this. And
so they wanted to talk about narcissistic bosses, and yeah,
I'm like, wait a minute, you got a narcissistic boss,
you know, so that I'm gonna be going on Google
(32:00):
to find out who their boss is. But that's that's
just we don't have to do that. And so they're saying,
so many people are quitting or quiet quitting, you've heard
that term quiet quitting because they're tired of overworking. How
can we tell under a corporate atmosphere that our boss
(32:22):
could be a narcissist.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah, so there's a couple of things. One is not
all the time. But sometimes if you look at people
in higher positions, right, CEO, CFOs or people just kind
of that are that are that are kind of higher
up in their field or higher up in their industry
and they are in charge of multiple people, they tend
to have more narcissistic traits, let's say, than somebody who
(32:48):
does not, and it makes them good at their job, right,
And it makes them be able to navigate and manage
all these people. But when you're talking about narcissistic personality disorder,
there's a difference. So somebody who has a boss that
is narcissistic personality disorder, which we'll do a couple of things. One,
they will keep you walking on eggshells. They may fly
(33:11):
off the handle for no reason. They may be really
sweet to you one day. The thing is is you
have no idea why they're switching it. So you're constantly
trying to figure out what it is it's making them,
you know, trying to figure out the rules of the game.
But the problem is they deliberately are not telling you
the rules of the game, and once you think you
figured it out, they change it up again. That's on purpose.
You may find that they embarrass you in meetings. They
(33:32):
may find they purposely leave you out of meetings, leave
you off certain emails on purpose. You may find that
they keep information from you. They pass over you for
promotion so that you then have to go speak to them.
They oftentimes take credit for your work. They will not
give you the credit that you deserve. They will you
go out of their way to make you feel that
(33:55):
you don't know what you're talking about, or that you
are so amazing and wonderful, and you in a situation
where you're this like go to amazing, smart human being,
but then bring you down justice fast, vibrating you.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Let's say in a meeting, Oh my gosh, as you're
saying this, I am literally thinking about many people who
are going to listen to this and have found themselves
in relationship with the narcissists working for one, you got
blood ties with one, and my heart is breaking on
the inside, like because you almost feel like that narcissistic
(34:32):
person does not even value your soul.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
They don't. You're not a person, You're you're an object
that and understand for me as a psychologist, like I
help everyone, Like my goal and life is to make
everybody feel better. Right, So for me to say this,
it's like when psychologist says this, we all talk about this,
Like for us to say this, it's really like, oh,
we don't want to. But they view other people as
interchangeable objects. So whatever it is they need in any
(34:58):
given moment, whether it's money, whether or it's sex, whether
it's a job, whether it's somebody to go to dinner with,
whether it's it's you know, just somebody to drive them somewhere,
somebody to have on their arm, to look good, whatever
they need in that moment, that's what they're going to
use to get to you. And then when that need
is gone, you don't serve a purpose anymore. And so
(35:21):
it's it's they they look at people as like they
own they own them. There's like an ownership quality to
it that you you are, They are entitled to you,
They are entitled to what you can give them. Wow,
that's why people that break up that break like narcissic
relationships where if they break up, you know, in non
(35:41):
narcissistic relationships, if you break up with somebody, you may
talk every now and then, but like you're not together anymore,
there's no it's it's separate, right, and everyone goes on
their way. And I'm not saying it's not hard, but
with a narcissist, they will forever think even if you're
not together, they will forever think that you are there
still always.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
I know it's not funny, but I gotta I remember
telling someone because we're still friends, and I would say,
even when you walk down the aisle and they say
who giveth the way this person or whatever and be
like we do because I'm still in relationship. So wow,
this is so good, doctor Jamie, this is so good.
(36:25):
I'm excited because you have two books called Find Your
Calm and Find Good Habits and your Job. You have
helped many people escape narcissistic relationships. You've helped people, You've
empowered people. I don't want to respect that this is
(36:47):
what you do as a job. But at the same time,
someone is listening that's probably just need to know just one.
I know there's probably more than one, but what is
the first thing a person needs to start doing if
they want to break away from a narcissist and begin
to set boundaries.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
I would if you can safely get into individual therapy
with somebody who is able to understand the nuances of
these behaviors, that would be that would be my first, Okay,
So that you can have somebody that's objective, that's outside
of this, that you can trust, that you have a
safe space to begin to process what you are going through.
(37:26):
Because at a certain point point when you realize what's
going on, it's kind of this light bulb moment, and
once you see it, you can't unsee it, So it's
really important to be with somebody in therapy when that happens.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Can you still love and support someone that is a narcissist.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
I think you can say that you don't want something
bad to happen to them, but as far as loving them,
they at that point probably have done so much abusive
behavior to you that I don't put the response ability
on people to still have love for them. I go
(38:04):
to a place more of can you be at peace
with what happened for yourself? I think it's very hard
to tell people to work on kind of having love
towards it. If they can, that's amazing. I just I
don't like telling people that's the goal. It's more can
you be at peace where whatever they do does not
affect you anymore?
Speaker 1 (38:24):
That's so good. And that's where we come into your book,
How to Find Your Calm, How you can break unhelpful
thought patterns, practicing how to confront fears, finding strategies for
focusing on the present moment. And I just think that
(38:45):
I'm excited about this book and your mission is helping
people find a path toward a calmer, happier daily life.
That was the reason for that book and then find
good habits. You know, I noticed that when you're healing
from a relationship, whether it was abusive or it just
didn't work out, you kind of lost yourself somewhere along
(39:07):
the way or your sure your habits become their habits,
their habits become yours, and it's like, who are you
after this relationship is done? So finding good habits can
you kind of dive in, and if you want to
dive into, find your home before I let you go,
because I could keep you on here for forty more.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Man, Now, this is fun.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
This is fun. I like that, But I want to acknowledge.
I want to acknowledge your relationship roadmap, workshop and your books,
find your and find good habits.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
So I'll start find good habits the biggest thing. And
I like that you said when you come out of
a relationship, whether it's a narcissisic one or it's not,
or it's toxic, you kind of lose yourself a little bit, right.
That's that happens, and I think it's important to say
that that happens, and it's okay. And one of the
ways to kind of get yourself back is in the
(40:04):
book find good habits is I first have people do
what it calls a value assessment. It's so important to
figure out what it is that you value in life,
and then from those values, you then make goals, tangible
goals like that, hard fact, goals that you can actually
count and say, did I do this today? Yes?
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Or no? Not?
Speaker 2 (40:22):
I want to be happy because I don't know what
that means. You never want a goal to be a
mood because moods change. This morning, I was in a
horrible mood. Now I'm fine. What if I like in
a bad mood later on, does that mean I fail
at my goal? So moods should never be goals. There
are transient states, and so you want to make sure
that your goals are in line with your value. So
if I value being a good psychologist, right, let's say
(40:46):
my goal is to make sure I do outreach once
a week, to make sure I post something on Instagram
once a week? Did I do that? Yes or no?
And the more of those goals that I hit that
are in line with what I value as being a
good psychologist kind of puts me on that path to
have less anxiety, less stress, right, and puts me back
(41:06):
into who I want to be. If my behavior, though,
goes the opposite direction of the thing that I value,
it puts us more at risk for anxiety and depression.
So it really has to be value driven behavior, even
if it's uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Value driven. And you said not necessarily moves because they're transient,
they change.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah, that's like when people say they'll come into my
office and they'll say, I just I just want to
be happy. I'm like, okay, what does that look like?
It's happiness for me. I'm going to go about that
way differently than you may go about you know, happiness,
And I think it's a big it's a danger. And
that's why things like you know, self love and I
think they're great concepts. But but what is self give
(41:46):
me behaviors? How will you know if you're loving yourself?
What kind of things do you need to do to
fall under the umbrella of self loves? So that's what
this book helps with.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
That's so good, so good. And your workshop relation ship boundaries. Yes,
have you seen people that are already in relationships that
it actually strengthens the relationships they're already in.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
The non narcissistic ones, Yes, for sure. The narcissistic ones, no,
I wish I could have saw her face.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
She was like, yes, then yes, the non narcissistic yes,
absolutely yes.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Not the narcissistic ones know, because the abuse just gets
progressively worse if you don't leave. But the non narcissistic
ones absolutely for sure.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Well, because you know, when you're in a relationship with
someone and then all of a sudden a year goes
by and they say, you know, I don't like when
you do that, that kind of your pride and ego
gets stung a little bit. Yes, but it makes the
(42:49):
relationship better because that person they probably said it was
so much fear because they were probably worried about the
reaction they were. Sometimes we don't say things because we'd
rather hold on to the relationship as well.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
But absolutely there are.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Times when when someone says, you know what, I don't
like when you do that, because say, it's me that
they're telling that too. I didn't know that me going yes,
putting my doing like this to my phone with my fingernails,
I didn't know that that irritates you or makes you anxious.
So now that I know, ah, wow, the response should
(43:24):
be I'm so sorry. I had no clue yes.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
So that's the difference. I'm actually use that as a
perfect example. That is the difference between somebody who is
non narcissist versus narcissist in a relationship. If you say
to somebody who maybe has the narcissisic features, let's say
they're selfish or whatever, they don't listen that much to you,
and you tell them that right that you know, this
(43:50):
is this I don't like when you do this. Somebody
who has empathy, somebody who cares about how the other
person feels, they're going to respond like you ditch you
just said. They may not agree with it, but they
don't want to hurt you, and maybe they can find
a compromise. Somebody who is a narcissist who hears that
(44:10):
is going to look at that as an attack, because narcissists,
when they hear criticism proof, they take it to a
unhelped I mean the rage. It's like you attack to
their soul. So not only will they not hear you,
but they will not make any effort whatsoever to change,
And more important, it doesn't bother them that you are bothered.
There's no empathy there. So you know, sometimes people say
(44:34):
how do I know it's a narcissist versus not because
sometimes on the surface, the behaviors, the patterns may look
the same. This is how no empathy, how do they respond,
no empathy, no concern for you know, not able to
put themselves in other people's shoes and then using that
to then manipulate you even further.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
And ladies and gentlemen, when we hear that, we say,
oh no, oh no honey, not me, not me, no mean.
And you just never know you could find your never know,
you know, because you're drawn to them by their charm.
The love bombing, all the love bombing will almost blind
you to that in people, there's nothing better. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
And here's the thing too, you know, it's a people
that narcissists are drawn to typically are very successful, attractive, smart,
have so much going to them. Why one because it
makes the narcissist look good, but two, it's so much
supply for them when they bring somebody down who was
(45:35):
that high up. So it's not just people who are
really weak and mild and vulnerable that go to narcissists
a lot of times, it's people that are very successful
and very smart and very driven.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Yeah, all right, now, because I'm not even driving and
I feel like I need to pull over. Okay, so
I can imagine someone who's listening to checking in on
their riot home on your commute. You're ready to tell
the train conductor, pover. Listen you guys, doctor Z, you
have been in absolute joy. I tell you, I do
(46:11):
want you to come back, because I want to go
into I've heard. I've been reading about healthy narcissism and
how like you said, there are people who are very
high up in what they do. You have to have
a level of narcissism to be successful. I don't know
if you do or not. You're successful, doctor Z. My
girls that our producers on here are successful. I just
(46:33):
don't know if they're necessarily narcissist. I deem myself to
be successful. I don't know if I'm narcissists. So I
just don't know if you have to be a narcissist
to be successful.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
You don't, Okay, you don't, Yeah, you don't. You know,
and just you know, narcissistic qualities, let's say, doesn't include
lack of empathy, lack of remorse, not being able to
see other people's side to things. I mean that also
is what makes it's a good CEO or you know,
somebody who's in charge of being able to hear their
(47:05):
employees concerned and being able to fix things to make
people's lives better. So I love you.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Know.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
That's why I think narcissism sometimes it's it's hard to
it's it kind of gives us, I don't know this, uh,
the wrong definition for certain things, got it? So I
always use narcissic personality disorder because I think that that
kind of separates the two.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
That's so good, doctor Z.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
Thank you again, Thank you, This was so fun. Anytime?
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Where can we find you?
Speaker 2 (47:35):
I'm on Instagram, doctor Z, Underscore Psychologists, and my website
doctor Jamie Zuckerman dot com. I'm on TikTok and.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Yeah, yes she is, Yes she is. Yeah, I'm sad
to see her go, but we've got to go and
she's got to go. So I'm gonna put you on
the spot. You promise you'll come back again?
Speaker 2 (47:56):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely right, It is great.
Speaker 1 (47:58):
All right, we'll see you late. OMG. I know y'all
have been seeing this word flying around on social media.
I mean it is everywhere, whether it's the word narcissist
or narcissism, and yes, we have found out that it
can also be a diagnosed personality disorder. Narcissistic personality disorder.
(48:23):
A person can also have just narcissistic traits. It don't
necessarily make you a narcissist, but you might have some traits.
And I am so glad that doctor Z was able
to break down a few things and how narcissists actually
prey upon a certain personality or they just get joy
out of breaking somebody down. Y'all, Doctor Z has to
(48:48):
come back. I hope you guys learned a lot. I
know I did. I know that whenever we have these conversations. Yes,
there are certain people that pop up in my mind.
But I also lit sit here and I check in
with myself. I check in with my heart to make sure,
like Lord, I need to pray about this and making
sure that there is nothing in my heart that is
(49:11):
contrary to the love of God that needs to be
shown to everybody. Checking In with Michelle Williams is a
(49:53):
production of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. For more podcasts
from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio yo app, Apple podcast,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. We have heard this word narcissism.
(00:21):
We've heard the word narcissist, but did you know that
it's also a personality disorder. Yes, a person can be
diagnosed by a psychiatrist and it is called narcissistic personality disorder. Well,
we are going to find out so much more on
this upcoming episode of Checking In. Everybody today is a
(00:44):
great day. It's a great day, first of all because
guess what, we are alive, We are present, we are breathing,
and we have another day to check in. The Explore
page on Instagram is amazing because when someone posts thing
that gets a lot of engagement and attention, it pops up.
And I'm so glad that doctor Jamie Zuckerman is one
(01:08):
of those folks who popped up on my feed. Started
following her instantly. She's probably like, what in the world, Yes, yes, yes,
She's a nationally known expert on narcissism, a narcissistic abuse
relationship coach, and licensed clinical psychologist, and appears as the
(01:28):
go to expert for local Philadelphia Fox, CBS, ABC and more.
Please welcome doctor Jamie Zuckerman to Checking In.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
That was a heck of an introduction.
Speaker 1 (01:39):
Listen, my folks, Honey, Angela and Samantha here at checking In.
We do not play about our guests.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
I want to come on here every day and here.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
We'll give it to you. We'll copy and paste it
so the next time you go someplace they have this
same introduction. You said, you've been sick.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
It was some weird viral vocal I don't even know
what it was, but it was. It was. It was bad.
It was bad.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Were you about to say vocal paralysis?
Speaker 2 (02:10):
They didn't say that specifically, but it was some nerve
damage like within my throat muscle tip. But for me
not to be able to talk, I mean, I'm sure
some people were thrilled, but it was really frustrating because
I couldn't do my work. So you know, I'm sure
my kids were happy, but it was it was a
real pain. So slowly started to come back, but it
(02:31):
was it was.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
It was nuts. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
Like you said, I mean, we use our voice for
a living, yeah, so when we can't use it for
one reason or another, especially sickness, that can definitely have
an effect. You know, how did you go through that.
You're a psychologist, You're a mental health expert, so I'm
definitely going to ask how are you, as an expert
(02:57):
handling something that could literally have a person going going
to a depression or an anxiety fit, panic attack, anxiety attack.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Absolutely had anxiety about this, not gonna lie. I think,
you know, I look at it kind of as it's
it's a normal response to a very abnormal situation. You know,
I think it would be weird if I wasn't anxious
about it, to be honest with you, because in my head,
I'm thinking, oh my gosh, I have to cancel patients,
I have to cancel appearances, and what if I do it?
(03:28):
But then my voice just checks out right in the
middle of it, because that's what would happen. So yeah,
it was very anxiety provoking for sure. And then you
feel guilty because you know, you schedule all these things
and you have to cancel on people, which I hate
canceling on people. You know, everybody works hard, everybody changes
their schedules. So yeah, it's stressful for sure. So anxiety
(03:49):
absolutely one percent.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Doctor Jamie, Thank you so much. For saying that anxiety
is a normal response to something abnormal.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Oh yes, yes, And.
Speaker 1 (03:59):
Then secondly you said you would have been concerned if
you didn't have anxiety. Yes, I want to park there
for a minute. So when a person feels like they
didn't have anxiety to something that they should normally have
anxiety with, what would you say is going on with
that person?
Speaker 2 (04:16):
So I think anxiety gets a bad reputation, so I'll
start with that. You know, if we didn't have anxiety,
you and I would cross the street and not look
both ways. We just wouldn't think too, we wouldn't care to.
So anxiety keeps us safe, It motivates us, It gives
us information about our world. Too much anxiety can be debilitating.
But no anxiety at all when it probably would make
(04:38):
sense to can give us this kind of numbness or
this apathy not caring. Really, So if it was something
significant and somebody wasn't anxious and it wasn't just that
they had really really solid coping skills, I would look
at it as avoidance. What are they not really dealing
with to allow themselves to sit with that discomfort? Are
they doing something to avoid that discomfort? And that's when
(04:59):
they like overworking comes in or drinking or you know
that kind of stuff to avoid what's really going on.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
Yes, yes, I know men in particular, someone I know,
you know, suffered something very traumatic and they've just been working, working, working, working, working,
work and working, and they don't like to say if
you say how you're doing, they're not going to say,
you know, I'm a little anxious because they believe that
you're bringing something into existence. That's right, but it's a
(05:30):
normal thing. I get what they're saying. They want to
stay in that positive mind.
Speaker 2 (05:34):
Oh so sure we all do, of course. But I
look at it like this. I look at it as
like a wave. Right. So if you're in the ocean
and you see a wave coming, no matter what you do,
that wave is going to crash, right, no matter what
you do. So you have two choices. You can stand
there and be prepared for it to wash over you.
(05:56):
Put your feet in the ground, stand as you know,
tall as you can, you know it's coming, Let it
wash over you and then it's gone. Or you can
stand there with your hands against it, struggling with all
your might, using up all your energy, ignoring all the
stuff you need to do, ignoring your likes, your family, whatever,
exhausting yourselves, and it's gonna knock you over anyway. And
(06:17):
it's gonna knock you over, and you're gonna tumble, and
it's gonna be a hell of a lot harder to
get up than if you stand there and let it
kind of crash over you. So either way, you're gonna
feel it. It's just a matter of how you want
to feel it.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
That's so good, doctor Z. Yesterday I slammed my hand
in the door. Oh and could you imagine if I
tried to act like it wasn't throbbing it it's swollen.
I even thought it was disfigured a little bit, but
I think it was just because it was swollen. But
if someone were to ask me how you're doing in
(06:48):
that moment, I've gotta be like, my head isn't pain,
that is throbbing versus oh, I'm good, everything's fine right now.
There are people who are we really ready for that
answer though my hand is throbbing, I'm in a lot
of pain because some people don't know how to handle
(07:11):
that real truth. We are accustomed to the high pitched
Oh no, I'm okay, everything's fine, correct, and then that
other person goes on about their business. It's right, you know,
versus like if I really say, my hand is throbbing
and I'm in pain, I'm curious to like what that
other person's response would be to my immediate pain. So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
I mean, and I feel like too with that. It
depends on who's around you. If it's somebody that knows
you well, you know, and they know that you need help,
they'll they'll maybe keep pushing you to get it right,
they won't let you go there. But if it's somebody
who doesn't really know you, and you're giving out this
vibe that you're good, you don't need anything, you're great,
you're not going to get the help and it's probably
difficult for you to, you know, for people to ask
for help, but then you become more isolated.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
It's so good, that's so good. We have had another
doctor or two we've discussed narcissism on checking in, but
you know, it's good to go deeper and deeper, especially
with someone where yes, you are a licensed clinical psychologist,
but you decided you're kind of just this is your
(08:17):
specific area of expertise in practice MM hmm.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
I mean I still obviously see people with anxiety because
you actually comes from that. Yeah, okay, it's kind of
hard to separate the two.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Okay, So relationship issues, depression, other mood disorders. You also,
in private practice still see people that are that grief
loss exactly.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Okay, Yeah, but this has kind of become Yeah, I
guess a bit of a specialty over the years. So
it's fascinating. I think it's and I think it's very
much needed. I'll say, okay, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
Is it from personal experience or was it a lot
of core people coming to you and you're like, there's
a common thread of about twenty people I'm seeing that
are dealing with.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
Yeah, ah, okay, So it was a combination of things.
One was and we went into private practice many years ago.
I would see this this pattern exactly like you said,
this pattern of people mostly women that I was seeing
at the time, but men also coming in with this
same almost blueprint of relationship issues, and you know, and
(09:25):
I would listen to it and I would hear it,
and you could tell it was narcissism. But in our minds,
the way we were training narcisism is so rare. It's
so rare, it's like such a small percentage of the population. However,
it's also because nobody with narcissic personality sort of steps
foot in treatment raally maybe one percent. They never really
(09:46):
make change, even if they go to therapy. It's extremely
short lived. The change is very is very minimal, and
so the patterns just keep going and going going. So
I was seeing a lot of women who are experiencing
these relationships, and then I just started kind of getting
into it a little bit more on Instagram and on
social media, and the feedback I was getting was one
(10:09):
of like like a oh my god, this is my life,
Thank you so much. And I realized how many people
this story they felt like was theirs. It was the
same story with different people. And then I personally, my closest,
closest friend at this time was going through a divorce
with somebody who was a narcissist, and I unfortunately had
(10:30):
a front row seat to it, and it was absolutely
it was horrifying. And so I think that coupled with
that and the social media awareness of it, it just
really kind of grew from there and I realized that,
you know, one of the things that was missing was
almost this preventative medicine in a sense that once you're
in it, it's really tough to get out of it,
(10:52):
and it's a different type of focus. But if we
can get the information out there to prevent people from
getting in it in the first place, yes, then I
feel like we really can make some change. So that's
where that started.
Speaker 1 (11:05):
That's so good. And because we're hearing this, are people
using the word wrong yes.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Okay, yes all the time? And infurious name.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
Now what okay? You can either answer one of them.
What is a narcissist or what is narcissism? Which one
is best to answer.
Speaker 2 (11:27):
So narcissism can be like, you know, people have narcissistic traits.
Let's say, so you know, sometimes let's say you're in
your area of expertise whatever that may be, right, like
if you're an athlete or you're a teacher or whatever
it is, in those moments like you know what you're doing,
(11:48):
you're in charge, you got it together, like you you're
the expert, and so you're Narcissistic traits not bad, just
they come out more it's what makes you kind of
motivated and good at what you do. The difference is
that when you're doing something that's not in that domain
where you know you don't have all the information or
you know that you need to learn or be objective,
you're able to reel it back. Right. That's healthy personality style.
(12:13):
So that narcissism, you know, it has such a bad
wrap now. But narcissistic, I mean you say somebody is narcissistic.
People will say someone's narcissistic, excuse my language, just if
they're like an asshole. But that's like not the same thing.
Somebody who has narcissistic personality disorder is not the same
(12:33):
thing as somebody who comes off as cocky or conceited
or you know, chronic infidelity or you know abuse. It's
a very specific type of abuse and a very specific
type of personality style. So you know, saying someone's a
narcissist really waters down what it really is, and it
(12:56):
really invalidates the experiences of survivors who have gone through
narcisstic abuse. I even see this when I post things
on like TikTok or Instagram about you know, five things
that a narcissist may do. When somebody will say my
ex does number one, two and four does that mean
they're a narcissist? And so I even have to be
careful when I post things to let people know these
(13:17):
aren't just behaviors. You don't use any of this to
diagnose anybody, because any one of us could do any
of this occasionally. A personality disorder is when this is
your entire kind of persona in all domains of your life,
not just with one person some of the time.
Speaker 1 (13:34):
Got it? Got it? So as far as a person
that has traits, so the traits are they're they're in you.
Traits are DNA.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Sometimes not all this time?
Speaker 1 (13:47):
They could be learned these I was about to say,
certain traits come from our mother and father. Correct, Okay,
so right, got that? So maybe the a person that procrastinates,
is that something that was learned or is that a
trait from the mother and father? I guess if you
get where I'm going. If a person has narcissistic traits,
(14:07):
could their parents? Could one of their parents have those traits?
Speaker 2 (14:12):
Yes, but absolutely not necessary to. They could have other
things where the child, in order to get through their upbringing,
develop certain strategies in response to those parental traits so
that they could get through life. So For example, we'll
use procrastination as an example. So let's say that you
have a parent who is extremely controlling, extremely perfectionistic, expects
(14:38):
their child to like, you have all a's, Why don't
you have all a pluses? You won this? Why didn't
you win all of them? You know you weigh one
hundred pounds, Why aren't you weigh ninety nine ouns? So
just really on you, really strict, so that child could
grow up thinking nothing they ever do is write right,
and so they have this constant fear of failure and
letting people down is swooting, so they may overcompensate for
(15:01):
that by trying so hard throughout their life to be perfectionistic.
The problem is is that perfectionists have this horrible fear
of failure, and so what they do. The reason why
they procrastinate is because if they don't start it well,
then they can never really fail because the control was
on them whether to start it or not. And so
you end up having procrastination and perfectionism kind of go
(15:24):
hands in hand. So that would be a perfect example
of how the parent may not be a procrastinator, but
by coping with that, the child becomes one. Over time.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
It becomes one. Okay, did you find over time? Because
everybody that's going to be listening to this, it's probably
going to be wondering, was I ever in relationship with
a narcissist? Was my parent a narcissist? I found that
in one relationship that I was in, I felt like
(15:54):
what was happening was so hard to explain. I couldn't
get words to it, but I just recall how it
made me feel. Now that we're getting some more awareness
in language, I'm like, God, bless this person's soul. I
(16:14):
believe underneath all the rubble, I believe they're a good person.
But I'm like, I wonder if that that was narcissism
because it's it's almost hard to explain and all I
all I remember, All I could do was just tell
people how something was making me feel.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
Yeah, very common. And the reason a lot of times
why you can't explain it for two reasons. One because
if you actually say it out loud, it sounds absolutely crazy,
like there's no way, and then you'll doubt yourself like
that can't be what's happening, Like wow, am I a
bad person for even thinking that way? That's one, and
two if it's narcissistic abuse. It's done in such a methodical, calculated,
(16:56):
purposeful way so that the person they're abusing isn't able
to even identify what's going on because they're either isolated
from other people or they're just constantly on edge, constantly confused, scared,
and so they can't even put it into words, nor
do they even want to.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Wow, do you think that there is still so much
to learn as it relates to the word narcissism, Oh,
for sure, you feel like, Okay, depression and anxiety, we
kind of, yeah, but narcissism is just something kind of
being unearthed.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
Then, yeah, because I think for a long time, you know,
I think with social media it came out a lot
more with you know, obviously have to be cautious who
you're listening to and what information you're getting, but when
people started sharing their stories, that was when it really
became kind of more out in the open. Because survivors
(17:53):
of narcissistic abuse are so isolated emotionally physically that they
don't ever talk about it, and they question whether it's
even real or not, and so when they hear other
people talking about it, it's like this moment of empowerment
and they have this like epiphany like, oh my god,
that's my story. Wait, I'm not alone, I'm not crazy.
(18:15):
So I think hearing other people's stories was so helpful,
especially during the pandemic. It was so helpful for people
to hear this stuff because people were home in these
relationships with no way out. And that's when it really
started to I think kind of people were talking about
it more and more.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Yeah, how does a person know if what they're dealing with,
If what they're dealing with is narcissism and their partner,
are they just having a bad day?
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Excellent question. So somebody who has narcissistic personality disorder won't
It won't just be a bad day. They will be
purposely manipulative, no empathy, a abusive verbally, physically, sexually, financially,
long term. This isn't something that's just you know, we
(19:08):
wake up, we're in a bad mood, like we yell
at our kids, or we yell at our significant other,
we cancel plans and our friends. That's not this. This
is a pervasive pattern throughout their entire life, across all relationships. Now,
they may seem extremely charming in public, they may seem
extremely giving, philanthropic, They may seem just wonderful, larger than life.
(19:33):
Everybody loves them in public, but behind closed doors are
horrifically abusive.
Speaker 1 (19:41):
They just want to be seen giving. Yes, you know,
they'll show up to your birthday party to let everybody
feel like it's for show. It's performance.
Speaker 2 (19:52):
It's a performance. It's a facade, it's a performance. They
are amazing actress. And so here's the thing I'll say.
You know, people will ask you know, well, how do
you know? And so if you listen carefully, people say, well,
they have no control over their anger. They have no
control over that. Yeah, they do. Narcissists one hundred percent
do because they can turn it off and be so
(20:15):
charming and sweet. But then you get home from an event,
you get home from dinner, and the mask falls off
and now they are angry, ragey, physically violent. But if
somebody were to knock on the door, oh hi, how
are you, and they switch it on and off so fast.
So somebody doesn't have control over their emotions, is not
(20:36):
capable of doing that. They know exactly what they're doing,
so you have to. So it's when you set a
boundary with them when you say no to them. When
people are dating in the beginning and they're questioning, is
this person I'm dating? And narcissists, they always say to them,
cancel plans with them. See what they do, Say no
to them, tell them you want to take it a
(20:56):
little slower. See what they do, y'all.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Doctor Z says, Narcissists don't show up for you because
they care. They show up so people think that they care.
She says, I always tell my patients to look at
the function of the behavior, the underlying why someone does
what they do. With NPD, which is a narcissistic personality
(21:21):
disorder which must be diagnosed. Ladies and gentlemen, that function
will always be because it gives them something. It actually
isn't even about you. You're the vehicle through which their
needs are met. Yes, oh see, then I want to
dig to what unmet needs as a child, when unmet
for this to kind of morph into this and it's
(21:45):
amazing that it is called a personality disorder.
Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yeah, I mean, the one very fascinating thing about narcissic personality,
or I will say this. You look at depression, you
look at anxiety, you look at my polar disorder, schizophrenia,
even some of the other personality sorders like sworderline personality disorder.
They can all manifest very differently in different people, different ages,
(22:09):
you know, like even where you are in the world.
I mean, they manifest differently. I get anxious or frustrated,
I start to get migraines. You know, somebody else may
get stomaching, somebody else may isolate, So everybody experiences it differently.
Narcissistic personality disorder doesn't matter who you are, where you are,
where you come from. The behaviors are identical, and they
(22:30):
are such nuanced, small behaviors that it's amazing that it's
it's all the same across the board. It's a very
distinct blueprint.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Okay.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
But what happens then is that once people start to
see these blueprints, they're able then to predict. And when
you're able to predict somebody's behavior, then you start to
feel empowered because then you realize it's not about you.
It actually has nothing to do with you, which goes
back to what you were just saying, that it's just
we're just the objects, interchangeable objects.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
He ain't something I say, you said it, this was
this was in your post from January twenty five, You're good,
You're good, good, y'all, She's amazing. She also says you
learn way more about a person at the end of
a relationship then at the start. We could go on
and on and on. Yes, she said, this applies to friendship,
(23:22):
significant others, coworkers, family, all of it applies. Speaking of family,
let's talk about the possibility of narcissistic parents, let's do that.
I find that when a person goes to therapy and
gets some counseling, you begin to get language for what
(23:42):
you're going through, why, and how you cope with what
you're going through. But then it's always that geniagram that
has acts. So what youse your parents? Who are their siblings?
Who are they? You gotta go back to the root
of a lot of even my behavior has a root.
(24:03):
We're not saying our parents are the cause of how
we respond to situations. So no, that's not what we're doing.
We now blaming parents. But I find that when you
get counseling, you are able to see your parents through
a very educational lenses, having compassion, like, oh man, so
(24:25):
they were going through this, man, I hate that maybe
their childhood wasn't the best and they didn't get love,
so you begin to have compassion like man instead of
the blame and anger for me turned into compassion like man.
Right now, ladies and gentlemen that are listening to today,
And by the way, and I'm prefacing, I'm saying, I'm
(24:46):
prefacing all of this because of what therapy did for
me to recognize my own parents' behaviors and their struggles
inter personally and how they were as parents. These questions,
these next questions I'm about to ask have nothing to
do with me, like, oh my gosh, let's determine who
was narcissistic.
Speaker 2 (25:03):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, But I just wanted.
Speaker 1 (25:04):
People to know context wise of what therapy did for
me as parents, and what therapy is probably doing for
other people who are probably getting help being in a
narcissistic relationship with the romantic relationship. And then you find out, man,
my dad or my mom, or you might an uncle
(25:25):
or aunt somebody that raised you, you know, possibly has
this disorder. Doctor Jamie mm hmm, yep.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
So one of the things you'll find is that when
you if you are in therapy and you're kind of
either trying to figure out if you're in a narcisstic relationship,
or if I'm working with people to leave or post separation,
because the abuse continues even after you're separated. What people
find is that the pattern that they're experiencing in this
(25:56):
abusive relationship is either something that feel familiar to them
or something that that is, you know, in an odd way, comforting.
Now I don't say comforting and familiar because they like it,
but comforting and familiar because they've seen this before and again.
It doesn't have to be you know, if you're with
somebody's narcissist, that means a parent was a narcissist. It
(26:18):
can be just you know, you could have had a
parent that was neglectful, and so your strategies, you know,
developed into well, I'm not going to let anyone ever
neglect me or leave me, so I'm going to put
up this wall. And then later in life that translates
into narcissism. So, you know, whatever the case may be.
But people will start to identify patterns in They are
very big on patterns of behavior, not just the you know,
(26:41):
tell me how you're weak was, but like, I want
to know the patterns of behavior. I want to know
what you're doing and when you're doing it and so
and why you're doing it. So they'll see these patterns
that they have in their dynamics of this relationship. They'll
realize that the reason why it's familiar to them is
because they know it. And our brains, generally speaking, are
tend to be lazy. We like familiarities. Human beings, we
(27:03):
really are resistant to change, and so when something is
familiar to us, we gravitate towards it, even if it's unhealthy.
And you know, we may realize that we're repeating patterns
that are familiar to us but clearly are not healthy.
And so that awareness of that, I think is a
really big big push for people excuse me, in therapy,
(27:25):
because it helps them to identify that what's going on
in front of them is something that's not their it's
not their fault, and that they have the ability to
change their pattern. Because that's the wonderful thing about patterns
is that patterns are learned behaviors, and if you learn something,
you can unlearn it. It may take a really long
time to pull back layers, but you can unlearn it.
(27:48):
You just have to really be willing to do it.
And it's going to be uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (27:53):
That's so good. That's so good. So I guess, how
does a person recognize a narcissistic parent and healthy boundaries?
You encourage healthy boundaries even with parents. You have a
relationship road map workshop where you help people recognize patterns
(28:13):
and you help people to set boundaries. That's kind of
new for people that I'm learning, Like, wait a minute,
I can set boundaries with family members.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yes, yes, yes, So we grow up a lot of
people and I'm throwing myself in this too. We grow
up thinking that we are not allowed to have boundaries
with our parents because our parents are our parents, and
there's a level of respect you do not cross, and
you know, and it's just kind of how it was.
I laugh about this all the time. I have My
(28:44):
middle one is seven and she is as sassy as
I mean I have never seen. And I look at
her and I'm thinking in my head, if I ever
did anything like that, yeah, oh my god, I mean forget, forget,
forget it, forget it like you forget, and so it
would have been grounded for a century. So we think
that we can't set boundaries with their parents because there
(29:06):
are parents. But here's the thing is that it doesn't
matter who they are. You, as a human being, have
a right in this world to set boundaries. You have
a right as a human being. I don't care who
they are, to let people know how you are willing
to be treated and how you will not tolerate to
(29:27):
be treated. What they do with that information, that's on them.
We can't change anyone else. But we have the right
as human beings to let people know what we're willing
to take and not take.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
So a lot of us we don't set boundaries, nor
do we may even walk away from certain things, all
because we're worried about their reaction, correct versus what you
just said. That's not on you. Their reaction is not
on you at this point, y'all. If you know you
are in something unhealthy and abusive, the worry should not
(30:03):
be about them and their reaction. It's got to be
about your freedom and at this point, y'all, quality of
life that you decide that you deserve to have.
Speaker 2 (30:14):
I love that absolutely absolutely. And I'll have people come
in all this day and they'll say, you know, doctor Z,
I set a boundary, but it didn't work. And I'll say, well,
what do you mean it didn't work? Well, my mom
still did X, Y and Z, and my dad still
did X, Y and Z. But that's not how you
decide whether a boundary worked or not. The boundary is
did you set it or not? Well? Yes, I did? Okay,
(30:35):
Well what they do in response to that is not
of your concern. Especially with parents. You're going to feel
like you're doing something wrong. You're going to feel guilty,
and you're going to feel bad. You need to set
the boundary out at the same exact time. Feel those emotions.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
Now set the boundary, and now what I found. You know,
just with people that I've loved, you do it in
love is a way I think, just for now you
can be flat footed, be factual, you know, but in
setting the boundary, especially with loved one with parents, I
(31:11):
personally wouldn't suggest cursing them out and no throwing pots
and pans.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Nah, no, no, correct, correct, that's not neutral. I always
tell people to strive for neutral, like neutrality, which means
not rolling your eyes, not ignoring, not throwing pots and pans,
not screaming, but neutral, neutral tone, neutral words, no opinions,
no anything but fact just neutral, because then you kind
(31:37):
of lose sight of everything.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Wow, you're amazing. You're amazing. One person knows that I
am talking to you today. I always love telling people, Hey,
I'm talking with someone and they're expert in this. And
so they wanted to talk about narcissistic bosses, and yeah,
I'm like, wait a minute, you got a narcissistic boss,
you know, so that I'm gonna be going on Google
(32:00):
to find out who their boss is. But that's that's
just we don't have to do that. And so they're saying,
so many people are quitting or quiet quitting, you've heard
that term quiet quitting because they're tired of overworking. How
can we tell under a corporate atmosphere that our boss
(32:22):
could be a narcissist.
Speaker 2 (32:25):
Yeah, so there's a couple of things. One is not
all the time. But sometimes if you look at people
in higher positions, right, CEO, CFOs or people just kind
of that are that are that are kind of higher
up in their field or higher up in their industry
and they are in charge of multiple people, they tend
to have more narcissistic traits, let's say, than somebody who
(32:48):
does not, and it makes them good at their job, right,
And it makes them be able to navigate and manage
all these people. But when you're talking about narcissistic personality disorder,
there's a difference. So somebody who has a boss that
is narcissistic personality disorder, which we'll do a couple of things. One,
they will keep you walking on eggshells. They may fly
(33:11):
off the handle for no reason. They may be really
sweet to you one day. The thing is is you
have no idea why they're switching it. So you're constantly
trying to figure out what it is it's making them,
you know, trying to figure out the rules of the game.
But the problem is they deliberately are not telling you
the rules of the game, and once you think you
figured it out, they change it up again. That's on purpose.
You may find that they embarrass you in meetings. They
(33:32):
may find they purposely leave you out of meetings, leave
you off certain emails on purpose. You may find that
they keep information from you. They pass over you for
promotion so that you then have to go speak to them.
They oftentimes take credit for your work. They will not
give you the credit that you deserve. They will you
go out of their way to make you feel that
(33:55):
you don't know what you're talking about, or that you
are so amazing and wonderful, and you in a situation
where you're this like go to amazing, smart human being,
but then bring you down justice fast, vibrating you.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Let's say in a meeting, Oh my gosh, as you're
saying this, I am literally thinking about many people who
are going to listen to this and have found themselves
in relationship with the narcissists working for one, you got
blood ties with one, and my heart is breaking on
the inside, like because you almost feel like that narcissistic
(34:32):
person does not even value your soul.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
They don't. You're not a person, You're you're an object
that and understand for me as a psychologist, like I
help everyone, Like my goal and life is to make
everybody feel better. Right, So for me to say this,
it's like when psychologist says this, we all talk about this,
Like for us to say this, it's really like, oh,
we don't want to. But they view other people as
interchangeable objects. So whatever it is they need in any
(34:58):
given moment, whether it's money, whether or it's sex, whether
it's a job, whether it's somebody to go to dinner with,
whether it's it's you know, just somebody to drive them somewhere,
somebody to have on their arm, to look good, whatever
they need in that moment, that's what they're going to
use to get to you. And then when that need
is gone, you don't serve a purpose anymore. And so
(35:21):
it's it's they they look at people as like they
own they own them. There's like an ownership quality to
it that you you are, They are entitled to you,
They are entitled to what you can give them. Wow,
that's why people that break up that break like narcissic
relationships where if they break up, you know, in non
(35:41):
narcissistic relationships, if you break up with somebody, you may
talk every now and then, but like you're not together anymore,
there's no it's it's separate, right, and everyone goes on
their way. And I'm not saying it's not hard, but
with a narcissist, they will forever think even if you're
not together, they will forever think that you are there
still always.
Speaker 1 (36:03):
I know it's not funny, but I gotta I remember
telling someone because we're still friends, and I would say,
even when you walk down the aisle and they say
who giveth the way this person or whatever and be
like we do because I'm still in relationship. So wow,
this is so good, doctor Jamie, this is so good.
(36:25):
I'm excited because you have two books called Find Your
Calm and Find Good Habits and your Job. You have
helped many people escape narcissistic relationships. You've helped people, You've
empowered people. I don't want to respect that this is
(36:47):
what you do as a job. But at the same time,
someone is listening that's probably just need to know just one.
I know there's probably more than one, but what is
the first thing a person needs to start doing if
they want to break away from a narcissist and begin
to set boundaries.
Speaker 2 (37:06):
I would if you can safely get into individual therapy
with somebody who is able to understand the nuances of
these behaviors, that would be that would be my first, Okay,
So that you can have somebody that's objective, that's outside
of this, that you can trust, that you have a
safe space to begin to process what you are going through.
(37:26):
Because at a certain point point when you realize what's
going on, it's kind of this light bulb moment, and
once you see it, you can't unsee it, So it's
really important to be with somebody in therapy when that happens.
Speaker 1 (37:37):
Can you still love and support someone that is a narcissist.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
I think you can say that you don't want something
bad to happen to them, but as far as loving them,
they at that point probably have done so much abusive
behavior to you that I don't put the response ability
on people to still have love for them. I go
(38:04):
to a place more of can you be at peace
with what happened for yourself? I think it's very hard
to tell people to work on kind of having love
towards it. If they can, that's amazing. I just I
don't like telling people that's the goal. It's more can
you be at peace where whatever they do does not
affect you anymore?
Speaker 1 (38:24):
That's so good. And that's where we come into your book,
How to Find Your Calm, How you can break unhelpful
thought patterns, practicing how to confront fears, finding strategies for
focusing on the present moment. And I just think that
(38:45):
I'm excited about this book and your mission is helping
people find a path toward a calmer, happier daily life.
That was the reason for that book and then find
good habits. You know, I noticed that when you're healing
from a relationship, whether it was abusive or it just
didn't work out, you kind of lost yourself somewhere along
(39:07):
the way or your sure your habits become their habits,
their habits become yours, and it's like, who are you
after this relationship is done? So finding good habits can
you kind of dive in, and if you want to
dive into, find your home before I let you go,
because I could keep you on here for forty more.
Speaker 2 (39:26):
Man, Now, this is fun.
Speaker 1 (39:28):
This is fun. I like that, But I want to acknowledge.
I want to acknowledge your relationship roadmap, workshop and your books,
find your and find good habits.
Speaker 2 (39:42):
So I'll start find good habits the biggest thing. And
I like that you said when you come out of
a relationship, whether it's a narcissisic one or it's not,
or it's toxic, you kind of lose yourself a little bit, right.
That's that happens, and I think it's important to say
that that happens, and it's okay. And one of the
ways to kind of get yourself back is in the
(40:04):
book find good habits is I first have people do
what it calls a value assessment. It's so important to
figure out what it is that you value in life,
and then from those values, you then make goals, tangible
goals like that, hard fact, goals that you can actually
count and say, did I do this today? Yes?
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Or no? Not?
Speaker 2 (40:22):
I want to be happy because I don't know what
that means. You never want a goal to be a
mood because moods change. This morning, I was in a
horrible mood. Now I'm fine. What if I like in
a bad mood later on, does that mean I fail
at my goal? So moods should never be goals. There
are transient states, and so you want to make sure
that your goals are in line with your value. So
if I value being a good psychologist, right, let's say
(40:46):
my goal is to make sure I do outreach once
a week, to make sure I post something on Instagram
once a week? Did I do that? Yes or no?
And the more of those goals that I hit that
are in line with what I value as being a
good psychologist kind of puts me on that path to
have less anxiety, less stress, right, and puts me back
(41:06):
into who I want to be. If my behavior, though,
goes the opposite direction of the thing that I value,
it puts us more at risk for anxiety and depression.
So it really has to be value driven behavior, even
if it's uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (41:21):
Value driven. And you said not necessarily moves because they're transient,
they change.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
Yeah, that's like when people say they'll come into my
office and they'll say, I just I just want to
be happy. I'm like, okay, what does that look like?
It's happiness for me. I'm going to go about that
way differently than you may go about you know, happiness,
And I think it's a big it's a danger. And
that's why things like you know, self love and I
think they're great concepts. But but what is self give
(41:46):
me behaviors? How will you know if you're loving yourself?
What kind of things do you need to do to
fall under the umbrella of self loves? So that's what
this book helps with.
Speaker 1 (41:55):
That's so good, so good. And your workshop relation ship boundaries. Yes,
have you seen people that are already in relationships that
it actually strengthens the relationships they're already in.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
The non narcissistic ones, Yes, for sure. The narcissistic ones, no,
I wish I could have saw her face.
Speaker 1 (42:15):
She was like, yes, then yes, the non narcissistic yes,
absolutely yes.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Not the narcissistic ones know, because the abuse just gets
progressively worse if you don't leave. But the non narcissistic
ones absolutely for sure.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Well, because you know, when you're in a relationship with
someone and then all of a sudden a year goes
by and they say, you know, I don't like when
you do that, that kind of your pride and ego
gets stung a little bit. Yes, but it makes the
(42:49):
relationship better because that person they probably said it was
so much fear because they were probably worried about the
reaction they were. Sometimes we don't say things because we'd
rather hold on to the relationship as well.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
But absolutely there are.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Times when when someone says, you know what, I don't
like when you do that, because say, it's me that
they're telling that too. I didn't know that me going yes,
putting my doing like this to my phone with my fingernails,
I didn't know that that irritates you or makes you anxious.
So now that I know, ah, wow, the response should
(43:24):
be I'm so sorry. I had no clue yes.
Speaker 2 (43:28):
So that's the difference. I'm actually use that as a
perfect example. That is the difference between somebody who is
non narcissist versus narcissist in a relationship. If you say
to somebody who maybe has the narcissisic features, let's say
they're selfish or whatever, they don't listen that much to you,
and you tell them that right that you know, this
(43:50):
is this I don't like when you do this. Somebody
who has empathy, somebody who cares about how the other
person feels, they're going to respond like you ditch you
just said. They may not agree with it, but they
don't want to hurt you, and maybe they can find
a compromise. Somebody who is a narcissist who hears that
(44:10):
is going to look at that as an attack, because narcissists,
when they hear criticism proof, they take it to a
unhelped I mean the rage. It's like you attack to
their soul. So not only will they not hear you,
but they will not make any effort whatsoever to change,
And more important, it doesn't bother them that you are bothered.
There's no empathy there. So you know, sometimes people say
(44:34):
how do I know it's a narcissist versus not because
sometimes on the surface, the behaviors, the patterns may look
the same. This is how no empathy, how do they respond,
no empathy, no concern for you know, not able to
put themselves in other people's shoes and then using that
to then manipulate you even further.
Speaker 1 (44:53):
And ladies and gentlemen, when we hear that, we say,
oh no, oh no honey, not me, not me, no mean.
And you just never know you could find your never know,
you know, because you're drawn to them by their charm.
The love bombing, all the love bombing will almost blind
you to that in people, there's nothing better. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
And here's the thing too, you know, it's a people
that narcissists are drawn to typically are very successful, attractive, smart,
have so much going to them. Why one because it
makes the narcissist look good, but two, it's so much
supply for them when they bring somebody down who was
(45:35):
that high up. So it's not just people who are
really weak and mild and vulnerable that go to narcissists
a lot of times, it's people that are very successful
and very smart and very driven.
Speaker 1 (45:49):
Yeah, all right, now, because I'm not even driving and
I feel like I need to pull over. Okay, so
I can imagine someone who's listening to checking in on
their riot home on your commute. You're ready to tell
the train conductor, pover. Listen you guys, doctor Z, you
have been in absolute joy. I tell you, I do
(46:11):
want you to come back, because I want to go
into I've heard. I've been reading about healthy narcissism and
how like you said, there are people who are very
high up in what they do. You have to have
a level of narcissism to be successful. I don't know
if you do or not. You're successful, doctor Z. My
girls that our producers on here are successful. I just
(46:33):
don't know if they're necessarily narcissist. I deem myself to
be successful. I don't know if I'm narcissists. So I
just don't know if you have to be a narcissist
to be successful.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
You don't, Okay, you don't, Yeah, you don't. You know,
and just you know, narcissistic qualities, let's say, doesn't include
lack of empathy, lack of remorse, not being able to
see other people's side to things. I mean that also
is what makes it's a good CEO or you know,
somebody who's in charge of being able to hear their
(47:05):
employees concerned and being able to fix things to make
people's lives better. So I love you.
Speaker 1 (47:11):
Know.
Speaker 2 (47:12):
That's why I think narcissism sometimes it's it's hard to
it's it kind of gives us, I don't know this, uh,
the wrong definition for certain things, got it? So I
always use narcissic personality disorder because I think that that
kind of separates the two.
Speaker 1 (47:27):
That's so good, doctor Z.
Speaker 2 (47:29):
Thank you again, Thank you, This was so fun. Anytime?
Speaker 1 (47:33):
Where can we find you?
Speaker 2 (47:35):
I'm on Instagram, doctor Z, Underscore Psychologists, and my website
doctor Jamie Zuckerman dot com. I'm on TikTok and.
Speaker 1 (47:45):
Yeah, yes she is, Yes she is. Yeah, I'm sad
to see her go, but we've got to go and
she's got to go. So I'm gonna put you on
the spot. You promise you'll come back again?
Speaker 2 (47:56):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely right, It is great.
Speaker 1 (47:58):
All right, we'll see you late. OMG. I know y'all
have been seeing this word flying around on social media.
I mean it is everywhere, whether it's the word narcissist
or narcissism, and yes, we have found out that it
can also be a diagnosed personality disorder. Narcissistic personality disorder.
(48:23):
A person can also have just narcissistic traits. It don't
necessarily make you a narcissist, but you might have some traits.
And I am so glad that doctor Z was able
to break down a few things and how narcissists actually
prey upon a certain personality or they just get joy
out of breaking somebody down. Y'all, Doctor Z has to
(48:48):
come back. I hope you guys learned a lot. I
know I did. I know that whenever we have these conversations. Yes,
there are certain people that pop up in my mind.
But I also lit sit here and I check in
with myself. I check in with my heart to make sure,
like Lord, I need to pray about this and making
sure that there is nothing in my heart that is
(49:11):
contrary to the love of God that needs to be
shown to everybody. Checking In with Michelle Williams is a
(49:53):
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