February 28, 2023 • 32 mins
Michelle and Ryan are taking mental health to the field! Ryan talks about the mental and emotional impact of retiring early from his football career due to a back injury. He also goes into his dedication to bringing attention to generational health to the black community. CHECK IN to this episode to hear a journey of finding mental wellness from the perspective of a black man.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. Y'all, welcome to another episode
of Checking In. I am so excited that you guys
(00:22):
are still rocking with us. Today's special guest. He's an entrepreneur.
He is a fellow podcaster as well an eight year
NFL veteran, including yes Super Bowl Championship. He would put
the Steelers and they won over the Arizona card. No no no,
sorry for y'all Arizonians, but guess what, y'all. He is
(00:44):
a champion for mental health for the community. Please welcome
Ryan Munday. Hey, what's going on? Thanks for having me.
I'm looking forward to this conversation. I am looking forward
to the conversation as well. As you can see, Ryan,
we are seeing more and more Fleet speak up and
about mental health. A lot of people are even saying, hey,
(01:05):
I need some time off to kind of just focus
on my mental health. And you are certainly one of
those trailblazers in the area of sports that's letting people
know it is okay to check in with your mental
health now. Like you, I remember, I personally was at
a place in my life that would be considered very successful.
(01:26):
I don't know if you know of my journey, but
I had to take a moment where I had to
go seek out professional help in twenty eighteen. I've always
sought professional help, but this was different help, checking into
an actual facility, right, And I went to public about
it because TMZ found out. So I said, wait a minute,
(01:46):
Y're not gonna tell my story. I am going to
let me tell the folks that, yes, y'all, all right,
I am in a treatment facility. I knew I wasn't
functioning well. I knew I needed help. When was it
for you that you realized you needed professional help? And
how did that make you feel? You know, my whole
life has been around been built around taking care of myself.
(02:11):
I started playing football at the age of seven years
old and I didn't stop until I was thirty one.
And so for twenty four consecutive years through Pop Warner
to high school to college to Super Bowls. As you mentioned,
I played eight years in the NFL. Like my whole
world was built around sport and also like taking care
(02:33):
of myself and then like the physical realm, and so
I knew how to do that. But when I retired
at the age of thirty one. The backstory there, I
was physically injured. I retired because I had a back
injury and that physical condition I don't know if you
ever had back surgery, I wouldn't wish that on anybody.
It is absolutely terrible. But that physical condition started to
(02:54):
affect my mental I was thirty one years old and
for the first time in my life, I was looking
at football in a different way. And an example of
that was like, there was a very rough collision that
happened on the field, and I said to myself, Wow,
that looks like it hurts. And I never thought that
before because I played defense, and when you played defense,
(03:15):
your job is to go towards the action, not away
from it. And so right then and there, I knew
that things were starting to change within me around like
my relationship with football, how I view things, and ultimately
and subsequently that led to my retirement. And I had
to provide that context because that set the stage for
like the next chapter of my life where I was like, Okay,
(03:37):
I knew that football was not forever, right Mike Tomlin
and my rookie season told me that football it's not
who you are to what you do. And so I
always worked to self identify outside of being like a
football football player, but it was really really hard to do.
The best way that I was doing that was like
educating myself. Got an NBA while I was an active athlete,
(03:58):
so on and so forth. So I was doing my
best to prepare because I saw a lot of guys
before me have inevitable struggles as relates to their finances,
as it relates to like their family life, etc. Or
just like finding themselves. And I was determined not to
be that person. And so again when I retired at
the age of thirty one, I felt good when I
felt good, and I was physically injured, but I knew
(04:20):
that I was like smart, I was capable prepared on
the educational side of things, and so it was time
for the rubber to meet the road. And ultimately, when
that rubber met the road, it was like a huge
wake up call for me because albeit I was good
with my money, albeit I was well educated, I was
not emotionally ready for that transition. And so I couldn't
(04:43):
think my way through that transition, and I could not
buy my way through that transition, and so I felt stuck.
Right I was dealing with anxiety, trying to figure out
what I was going to do with the rest of
my life. I was dealing with depression, missing what I
had done for twenty four years in total, and quite frankly,
just trying to trying to identify what my identity or
who I was. Right I thought I knew, but I
didn't know because my whole life was built around running
(05:04):
into people. So it's like, Ryan, who are you when
you're not doing that? And I don't know if you know,
but you can't run into people in real life in
top of them, So you know, the dynamics were pretty
deep and pretty serious. And it was at that point
really when like mental and emotional health showed up on
our radar at the age of thirty one, and it
hit me like a ton of bricks pretty immediately. It's
(05:27):
amazing that you say that, because I talked to people
in sports or people that I've worked with people in sports,
and one of the main things that we discussed is
the identity of that person when that's all you know,
that's all you've ever been. Yes you're a son, Yes
you're a father, Yes you're a husband, Yes you're a cousin. Yes,
you're a friend, Yes you're a brother. Oh that's great.
(05:48):
But for years you even had to sacrifice those titles
to just be football, and your identity was tied to
that leather that you hold in your hand, and like
you said, that is stripped away. So I'm assuming grief,
not knowing how to channel that grief, because sometimes when
we hear the word grief and grieving, we think it's
(06:10):
warning the loss of a loved one through death. No,
you had a loss the career that you and you
probably didn't dream of it having to retire in that way.
Absolutely not. So you grieving the loss of that anger yep,
very very upset and angry. I was I was done wrong? Yeah?
(06:31):
Probably not. That did not feel good. And so I'm
trying to go into your head and so those steps grief, loss, anger,
which turns into depression, m very much. So. Again, like
I built my entire life under the sport of football,
and even furthermore, like my family that you know, they
(06:55):
were able to experience, you know, stadiums all across the country,
Rose Bowls, Super Bowls, all American games, like it was
a family thing, right, And even though you made a
good point, like yeah, I'm a brother, I'm a husband,
and I'm a son, all those things, but like buy
and large, there the relationship that's framed between myself and
(07:16):
those other individuals, you know, the glue Buy and large.
A lot of times was football, right because it was
all consuming, all everything, etc. And so I really had
to strip it down right because everybody looks at you
and says like, oh, you you know you made some
money or you you know you have some sort of
like success, right, and things should be fine and things
(07:37):
should be okay. And I always tell people now, I'm like, look, yes,
money is very important. I'm not here to say that
it's not. But I'm also here to say that it
does not buy you peace and happiness. Cannot and will
not do that. And so it's really really important not
to confuse that because you couldn't pay your way through
the transition. You actually had to just go through it.
(08:00):
Yeah too, that's the only way it's going through. Can't
go around it, can buy yourself, can buy your way
out of it. You have to change happens with it, right,
And I had to take that journey in word to
really like understand myself for the first time maybe ever
or a really really long time two things, and then
I'm gonna pivot back to this point because I'm sitting
(08:21):
up here like I've always wanted to be on the
football field and somebody will run into me at full speed.
But I'm like, pad, I'm wide receiver. I can see that,
but I'm padded like one thousand extra. But somebody said, Michelle,
you will probably die of somebody running into your little
(08:45):
tail at full speed. I'm like, well, I just want
to know what makes a person just how can they
take it? And I not be able to They're like
they're about two hundred pounds more. You know. Secondly, as
you're talking, not to be ate from these points you're making.
Did me and you meet somewhere? We did? We met
at a Dizzy's restaurant or something like that in the
(09:08):
South Luke. It was a while ago. It was agog,
It was a while ago, and I believe we were
having Did we have this discussion about alchemy? It was
probably like bubbling up within me, like alchemy is it
some of all my life's experiences And I'm gonna get there.
I'm gonna go there. But I'm sitting here as we're talking,
like I've had a conversation with you in real life,
(09:33):
not just on the podcast. Yeah, I'm a real person.
I had a conversation with you in real life. Oh mg, okay, okay, okay.
Now going back to you feeling like, okay, reality is
hitting and feeling like you can identify it in other
(09:55):
football players and are you able to kind of warn
them and say, hey, it's a possibility's some depression is
going to set in some prolonged sadness, right, And that
was it that for you? Was it called depression when
when I was transfer trans transitioning and listening out, Yes, sir, yeah,
it was. You know, we had to put some language
(10:17):
to it, name it, identify it so that we could
correct it. Right. But even with that whole process, And
that's why I say, like, you know, I couldn't really
buy my way to help, Like if I went through
you know, quite a few number of providers before I
found one who understood me. Are you okay? So like
it just wasn't like old, go see one person then
everything is okay. That was not the case. Okay, So
(10:41):
this podcast, the foundation of it is mental health. Getting
into that moment when you were like, when was that
moment and you don't have to be specific. When did
you realize you were like that. I wouldn't say bad
because having depression you're not a bad person, but it
was bad enough for you to say I need help. Yeah,
I mean I think I was just not feeling like myself,
(11:03):
and I was recognizing that in my engagement with my family,
you know, my wife, my children, extended family members, mom, dad,
like even in conversations. And then also I just retrospectively
looked at myself, what is my relationship with myself? I
was not taking good care of myself, right, And it
wasn't because I didn't know how. It was because I
(11:26):
was just in like a depressive state and didn't feel
like it or didn't want to or just you know,
it was just heavy, you know what I mean. Those
were like the two real big things that primarily hit me.
Like I lost twenty five pounds, and I'm not a
huge guy, right, so imagine me like losing twenty five
pounds just solely due to some of the physical symptoms
(11:46):
where you didn't have an appetite, Yeah, just poor appetite. Yeah,
all the above, not working out, not exercising what I
want to hear, the listeners. And the depression is you
can lose your appetite and lose your interests in things
that you normally wants to working out, hanging out with
your friends, eating, Well, you don't have that desire to
(12:06):
do that anymore. Wow. Yeah, And again it wasn't because
I didn't know how Like that's what I did my
entire life, and I didn't think that the day the
day would ever come where it's like, oh man, I
don't want to go to the gym, or I don't
feel like going to the gym. Why Because I was
doing it every day so like it was a part
of my DNA right, And then to go from the
complete opposite where I'm not doing that at all. I'm
(12:30):
not taking good care of myself. Again, like the physical
mental process that was just feeding one another because I
was feeling bad physically that was impacting my mental and
my mental state was not was prohibiting me from taking
any physical activity. So it's just like this really nasty
cycle that kind of put me in a really bad spot.
Thank you for being open to answering those questions to
tell that listener what this feels like and the steps
(12:54):
that you took to like you said, you got on
the phone got a practitioner, but she didn't You probably
didn't have a match with the first one. So, like
you said, you're going to go through some practitioners maybe
before you like quote unquote find the one. Yeah, And
that's you know, that's how this system is set up, right,
Like it's hard to really know one what you're looking for,
(13:15):
right because you don't have a strong sense of what's
going on inside. You just know that you need help.
And so even just like starting the process, even before that,
you know around like stigmas like do you feel like
something's wrong with you or do you feel guilt and
shame or even feeling this way, And that's phibiting you
from even looking right and you start to look, you
don't know what you're looking for, trying to like you know,
(13:35):
bumping your head left them right to get to the
right landing spot. You find somebody, and then all these
access bearers show up. Can I have this? Like even
for me? I was like, man, like, therapy is expensive,
like and it costs a lot of money on a
regular basis to like take care of yourself in that way.
You know, access issues. My therapists have been all over
the map. I've had to drive small, short distances and
far distances, all these things kind of getting a way of, like,
(13:58):
you know, get help and support me. And particularly for
folks who you are maybe in disadvantaged financial situation sims, etc.
As y'all are listening, I really pray that you are
maybe doing some reflection. And I'm not saying everybody that's
listening to this episode is depressed, having anxiety or another
(14:19):
diagnosed situation going on, So I'm not saying that. But
my hope is that maybe you identify things that are
going on in a friend or a loved one that
you can definitely help them and guide them to get
the help that they need. And guess what, I'm going
to lead you to where they can possibly get some help,
(14:40):
because yes, I read his amazing resume of being an
NFL veteran Super Bowl champion, a fellow podcaster as well,
but today he sits in the seat of CEO and
founder of Alchemy Health, which is a platform that offers
culturally centered therapists, lad courses y'all, and expert guided mindfulness
(15:03):
and meditation practices. Listen, y'all, black people, people of color, period,
but especially black people, we needed a focus on mental health,
right and especially in our community where we are known
for sweeping stuff under the rug. We don't talk about things,
or you might be taught if you want to talk
about it, pray about it, you know. And did you
(15:26):
have any of those reservations for seeking out mental health
because of that and culture? No, Honestly, that's really what
really drove me to start the company, to really like
expand not only the conversation, but like how we think
about caring for ourselves. And it got to the point
for me personally and then also two for my family members,
(15:50):
Like during this whole time or retirement, I saw type
two diabetes and amputations. My father in law passed away
from at an early age from a heart attack, my
grandmother had a stroke. There was just a lot of
things that were kind of happening, and my grandfather passed
away from all his armors in dementia. There was a
lot of things that were happening not only into me,
but my family. And so I'm just sitting here kind
(16:12):
of doing some math around like if I'm going through
what I'm going through, my family is going through what
they're going through. Professionally, I was in like the startup ecosystem,
and I would see like, you know, venture capital money
and go here, venture capital money, go there, and it's
all like quote supposed to be solving a problem. And
I'm like, well, okay, I got a big problem here,
and my family is going through a big problem as well,
(16:34):
and I don't see no dollars or no money or
no ideas coming to like to like appropriately go out
into the water. So that was a context that like
I just knew that I had quite frankly, just had enough.
And I was like, look, if I'm going through it,
then I know my people were going through it. I
know my community is going through it. And so that's
what gave me like the courage. Albeit with all like
(16:55):
the you know, potential negatives or potential setbacks that men
or even with bringing a business to life, I had
to do it right. Like I just felt like such
a strong calling to to execute on this idea and
I haven't looked back since it's so good. Did you
feel that you received any pushback from men, you know,
athletes because of that whole matulness of sports. Nah, everybody's
(17:19):
been leaning in quite frankly, like I'm a living breathing,
you know, example of like the power of vulnerability, and
like when you just lead and just be real with
people and liket it like there's a connection. And particularly
over just these last few years, like we've all been
through something. So I don't walk around here and act
like things are okay because of the right. So at
(17:42):
some point over the last two years you you was like, damn,
this shit is crazy, right, and so like we we
have to kind of get to a place like being
real with one another. Uh, And that's what I've always
been leading with, Like I have no problems telling my story,
I have no problems like hearing other stories, and like
being the you know, the person that is like on
a day to day basis committed to helping people work
(18:04):
through things. So so good, so good. You said you
felt that it was a calling and you have not
looked back, sin and y'all, that's got to be encouraging
for people, you know, who are probably on the verge
of starting some type of venture, opening some type of
business that no one is doing, or it's kind of
(18:25):
opposite of what you're known for. And you said you
have not looked back. That is amazing. It is I'm
super blessed, unfortunate. You know, we talked about my sports
career that end and of itself was a dream come
true and my life's passion. I did it for twenty
four years, and so now here I am having those
(18:45):
same feelings about what I'm doing right now. So I'm
very less unfortunate to like, you know, find my life's
passion two times yes, and so like, And that's what
I was looking for. I was looking for something that, like,
I could take all the value and the skill, the discipline,
the work ethic, Where can I channel that energy next?
And ultimately I found it in alchemies. Listen, y'all, assignments change.
(19:09):
When you were in school, we didn't get the same assignment.
We had different assignments daily. So imagine through life, as
you are evolving and going into different things, your assignment
in various seasons of your life will change. And we're
so glad that you are walking in your assignment. You
(19:31):
were saying that you want to create generational health for
Black culture. Do you feel that there are people of
our culture who don't take mental health seriously? Yeah, I
think there's probably a subset of the culture who may
not believe in it. But ultimately I think the bigger
thing to focus on is we don't know what we
(19:51):
don't know as relates to mental health. Yeah, and I
think that's just general for like the macro society as well. Like,
this whole conversation around mental health is league less than
five years old. Like when I was going through what
I was going through in twenty sixteen, nobody was talking
about it, talk about it. There was no there was
nothing out there. So like, this conversation is still relatively
(20:12):
new for our country as a whole, but particularly for
our community, and so like I'm extremely mindful of that.
That's why we started with like video courses, like look,
how can we like have the most efficient, impalatable entry
point for you and stuff? Just on your radar here
watching y'all. Alchemy is an app by the way, a
(20:33):
l K E. M E. Where he's talking about these
courses y'all. He even has it for y'all Android users. Yeah,
y'all can download. Y'all can download this amazing app. I know.
In twenty thirteen, I was promoting a Broadway musical that
I was touring in and that was the first time
I publicly mentioned that I had been dealing with depression,
(20:57):
and with the journalist Ryan, I was like, certainly this
is off the record, or certainly this ain't gonna make
the interview. I'm promoting a Broadway show. Yo. It made
that part of the interview and it went everywhere, and
I thought that I would be a liability and I
(21:17):
would be seen as someone because when you when you
said no one talks about mental health, some of it
is because you don't want to be looked at as
crazy or something wrong with this person. Absolutely she be
able to be dependable, will she be able to work,
and will he be able to perform? But I'm so thankful.
Like you said, I don't care if somebody who's calling
it a trend. No, it is something that needs to
(21:39):
be talked about. Do you think that church culture inhibits
this conversation in some ways? I don't know your background
with church, and you know, oh yeah, I grew up
with the church my whole life experience. I grew up
very black and about this church. You know bt comic
for you, I mean the whole nine, very very black,
(22:00):
particularly as it relates to the church. I think it's uh,
it's still a new conversation, right and just because you
go to therapist does not mean that you don't believe
in God, Jesus or what the church stands for represents, right, Um,
you know Biblically it says faith without works, is that right? So,
like we got to start putting some activity to the
(22:21):
things that we need in our life. And we can't
always just pray things away. Yeah, right, we show activity.
We have to like be proactive in that and ultimately
have faith and confidence that like whatever we do and
we do it with like high integrity and a positive nature,
like our steps are ordered to get us to the
right direction. You know. We got to put a reverend
in front of your name, right word. Yeah, we got
(22:45):
to the conversation though, and we got some plans to
really like think about that and some meditation like you know,
just like warming up the conversation ultimately, because that's about
you know all right? Well, Alchemy uses the term rooted
rested resistance through recovery. Can you dive in unpack that? Yeah.
(23:06):
A lot of what we do is like we put
on programming for the community. So like you talked about
like our iOS android, the bulk of our content library
is available for free. We got about undered assets on
our library that are just completely available for you to
just like engage with. But as it relates to like
rooted in resistance, you know, like we always want to
(23:26):
provide like the right language for folks to one feel
empowered and also inspired. Yeah, right, talk about like rooted
like that means you're in there, and we want people
to feel rooted within the Alchemy community one thousand percent.
So a lot of things that we'll talk about tomorrow
will be around like resistance, will be around resilience and
ultimately giving you the skills and tools to help you
(23:48):
live a healthier life. So good. You've also carved out
the Alchemy Athlete Coalition partnership with athletes brands and organizations
dedicated to providing mental health sources, education awareness to athletes.
Do you think that there is a worst stigma in
sports for men to not share about their mental health needs. No,
(24:11):
I think there is, right, and I think it's particularly
with men. A lot of times with me leading US
organization people, because I'm a black man, they're like, oh,
you're doing this for men only. I'm like no, But
that I think speaks to just like how imbalanced the
scale is and lack of representation in the space, and
I think that stems from not only just see the
(24:32):
nature of like how folks were shown up, but more importantly,
but like, as men, more times than not, we don't
always have the language or the comfort level to like
share how we're feeling, and I think that ultimately creates
a stigma around it, particularly for men. And so when
I watched to ac like, I was essentially kind of
(24:54):
going back to the raison detri why I started the
company in the first place. I told you, like, you know,
mental health showed up on my rate when I was
no longer an athlete. I was like, oh, like, this
is crazy. And through that experience again, I know that
I'm not the only one that goes through that. You know.
I always walk around with two really really big identities
black man too, athlete. I will never not be an athlete,
(25:14):
right like super Bowl Champion always be in front of
my name, like all these things, and so like, I
just find ways to lean into things that I know
and communities that I care about to ultimately affect change
absolutely absolutely. I'm curious to know what your thoughts about
depression in men and do you think they mask their
depression and anxiety differently from women. And if so, what
(25:38):
are things that we as women can look for symptoms
and men? Yeah, I think the answers to that would
be yes, for sure masking it. And again, you know
there are stereotypes and you know, expectations that I think
contribute to that. And then so what would be the
things that you can look for? I would say just
like probably demeanor engagement, right like even with me, like
(26:04):
I visibly look different, right yo? Are you good? Something's
going on? Are you okay? Those types of things, But
then also to what I really believe needs to happen,
particularly as relates to men and also black men, it's
just to have like that space, right Like a lot
of times we need room and agency just to kind
(26:25):
of be. And when I think about like how we
show up in society, we get pooled in a lot
of different directions, right Like there's this desire to be
fulfilled from a professional and career development standpoint, there's another
pool to like be the leaders of the culture protect,
and then and then this third dynamic of just like
(26:48):
finding time for yourself, right like either like I'm a dad,
I'm a husband, I'm always like it was explained to
me one day, like the day can at time show
up as a dad at depletion right from the time
that I would it up. I'm like giving hair giving there,
giving their giving the air, giving their giving there, But
like who is effectively feeling my cup right outside of me?
(27:08):
And I don't. I don't know if particularly black men
get our cups filled enough or we have the space
to fill our own cup right. And space could be
like language, it could be you know, routine, but I
do think space is needed to really kind of ensure
that we get what we need to be the best
and highest versions of ourselves. And not only space, but
(27:30):
it's safe space to be able to share meaning if
someone could you imagine, yo, I'm not feeling like myself today. Man,
won't you do about you for yourself? You was just
at sold to field. But that's not creating a safe space,
A safe space meaning space to let what my comment,
what I just said, to let it breathe, let it go,
(27:52):
you know, like we say in music, let the track breathe,
let my let what I just shared with you, let
it breathe. Before we wrap this on, I have to
ask you this because on your ig you talk about
your love for coffee, black coffee. I need to know
(28:13):
what kind I love coffee. I gotta have my one
cup of day oh wow, one, Yeah, because if I
have two, I am literally crawling up the walls. I
can only do one cup. Yeah, I do love some
black coffee, particularly cold brew. That's what I'm sipping on
right now. I'm sipping on the cold brew. Yeah. So
I'll have the black coal brew as my regular, and
(28:34):
I'm either getting that from Starbucks with a shot of
espresso and or buy a lot of like canned cold
brew from this black owned coffee company, Black and Bolt. Okay,
so you don't do no this, just black coffee, like
you don't do no cream, no sugar, just black. My
dad used to do that. My granny did too. I mean,
(28:58):
good coffee doesn't need anything. If you put too much peper,
too much coffee in thereat, it turns in the hot
chocolate or something. That is true. And I'm trying to
keep this conversation not gross. We do no coffee to
be a natural laxative, especially when you just drink it black.
So I'm going to assume it's important to say it
is important to stay regular I got. I got so
(29:20):
many jokes on this, but I was like, let me
ask a question because I feel like, you know, the
conversation of mental health has to be taken seriously, but
at times it can be very heavy. And you just
wrapped up your Black Health Virtual Summit. You have panel
discussions on breaking generational cycles and embracing Black self care,
(29:43):
and you also had exclusive meditation sessions. How did it
feel to have this virtual health Summit? It feels amazing,
you know. Anytime that we're able to put something on
for the community and then have like the type of
response in attendance and registrations that show up, it truly
warms my heart. You know. It really just speaks to
(30:06):
the work that we do on a daily basis and
how important it is. And so really excited about turned out. Yeah,
well we are so excited, y'all. Yes please. He is
sitting in the seat today of CEO and founder of
Alchemy Health. And again, like we said, it is a
platform that offers culturally centered therapists led courses because there
(30:28):
are a lot of people that feel like, well, I
want someone that looks like me to provide therapy because
I feel like they will understand best what I've gone through,
a meditation practices, guided mindfulness, and so y'all get into
Alchemy Health. It is available right now. Brian, thank you
for being a champion, a champion of mental health, and
(30:51):
thank you for paying attention to yourself and going to
get to help when you needed it. Thank you so much.
I really enjoyed it at it. I'm excited. And when
it it's warmer, I'll be in Chicago, all right, Well
you have to let me know, and it's not gonna
get warm until June. So but you already knew that, right,
I got it. I'm supposed to come there in March
for work, but I'm gonna be in and out for
(31:12):
that reason. But we'll have to chop it up at
one of the easy spots. And it's so good to
see you. Yeah, it's good to see you as well.
Thanks again for having me on. I appreciate it. Yes, sir,
take care. Checking In with Michelle Williams is a production
(32:41):
of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows,
Welcome to Checking In with Michelle Williams, a production of
iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. Y'all, welcome to another episode
of Checking In. I am so excited that you guys
(00:22):
are still rocking with us. Today's special guest. He's an entrepreneur.
He is a fellow podcaster as well an eight year
NFL veteran, including yes Super Bowl Championship. He would put
the Steelers and they won over the Arizona card. No no no,
sorry for y'all Arizonians, but guess what, y'all. He is
(00:44):
a champion for mental health for the community. Please welcome
Ryan Munday. Hey, what's going on? Thanks for having me.
I'm looking forward to this conversation. I am looking forward
to the conversation as well. As you can see, Ryan,
we are seeing more and more Fleet speak up and
about mental health. A lot of people are even saying, hey,
(01:05):
I need some time off to kind of just focus
on my mental health. And you are certainly one of
those trailblazers in the area of sports that's letting people
know it is okay to check in with your mental
health now. Like you, I remember, I personally was at
a place in my life that would be considered very successful.
(01:26):
I don't know if you know of my journey, but
I had to take a moment where I had to
go seek out professional help in twenty eighteen. I've always
sought professional help, but this was different help, checking into
an actual facility, right, And I went to public about
it because TMZ found out. So I said, wait a minute,
(01:46):
Y're not gonna tell my story. I am going to
let me tell the folks that, yes, y'all, all right,
I am in a treatment facility. I knew I wasn't
functioning well. I knew I needed help. When was it
for you that you realized you needed professional help? And
how did that make you feel? You know, my whole
life has been around been built around taking care of myself.
(02:11):
I started playing football at the age of seven years
old and I didn't stop until I was thirty one.
And so for twenty four consecutive years through Pop Warner
to high school to college to Super Bowls. As you mentioned,
I played eight years in the NFL. Like my whole
world was built around sport and also like taking care
(02:33):
of myself and then like the physical realm, and so
I knew how to do that. But when I retired
at the age of thirty one. The backstory there, I
was physically injured. I retired because I had a back
injury and that physical condition I don't know if you
ever had back surgery, I wouldn't wish that on anybody.
It is absolutely terrible. But that physical condition started to
(02:54):
affect my mental I was thirty one years old and
for the first time in my life, I was looking
at football in a different way. And an example of
that was like, there was a very rough collision that
happened on the field, and I said to myself, Wow,
that looks like it hurts. And I never thought that
before because I played defense, and when you played defense,
(03:15):
your job is to go towards the action, not away
from it. And so right then and there, I knew
that things were starting to change within me around like
my relationship with football, how I view things, and ultimately
and subsequently that led to my retirement. And I had
to provide that context because that set the stage for
like the next chapter of my life where I was like, Okay,
(03:37):
I knew that football was not forever, right Mike Tomlin
and my rookie season told me that football it's not
who you are to what you do. And so I
always worked to self identify outside of being like a
football football player, but it was really really hard to do.
The best way that I was doing that was like
educating myself. Got an NBA while I was an active athlete,
(03:58):
so on and so forth. So I was doing my
best to prepare because I saw a lot of guys
before me have inevitable struggles as relates to their finances,
as it relates to like their family life, etc. Or
just like finding themselves. And I was determined not to
be that person. And so again when I retired at
the age of thirty one, I felt good when I
felt good, and I was physically injured, but I knew
(04:20):
that I was like smart, I was capable prepared on
the educational side of things, and so it was time
for the rubber to meet the road. And ultimately, when
that rubber met the road, it was like a huge
wake up call for me because albeit I was good
with my money, albeit I was well educated, I was
not emotionally ready for that transition. And so I couldn't
(04:43):
think my way through that transition, and I could not
buy my way through that transition, and so I felt stuck.
Right I was dealing with anxiety, trying to figure out
what I was going to do with the rest of
my life. I was dealing with depression, missing what I
had done for twenty four years in total, and quite frankly,
just trying to trying to identify what my identity or
who I was. Right I thought I knew, but I
didn't know because my whole life was built around running
(05:04):
into people. So it's like, Ryan, who are you when
you're not doing that? And I don't know if you know,
but you can't run into people in real life in
top of them, So you know, the dynamics were pretty
deep and pretty serious. And it was at that point
really when like mental and emotional health showed up on
our radar at the age of thirty one, and it
hit me like a ton of bricks pretty immediately. It's
(05:27):
amazing that you say that, because I talked to people
in sports or people that I've worked with people in sports,
and one of the main things that we discussed is
the identity of that person when that's all you know,
that's all you've ever been. Yes you're a son, Yes
you're a father, Yes you're a husband, Yes you're a cousin. Yes,
you're a friend, Yes you're a brother. Oh that's great.
(05:48):
But for years you even had to sacrifice those titles
to just be football, and your identity was tied to
that leather that you hold in your hand, and like
you said, that is stripped away. So I'm assuming grief,
not knowing how to channel that grief, because sometimes when
we hear the word grief and grieving, we think it's
(06:10):
warning the loss of a loved one through death. No,
you had a loss the career that you and you
probably didn't dream of it having to retire in that way.
Absolutely not. So you grieving the loss of that anger yep,
very very upset and angry. I was I was done wrong? Yeah?
(06:31):
Probably not. That did not feel good. And so I'm
trying to go into your head and so those steps grief, loss, anger,
which turns into depression, m very much. So. Again, like
I built my entire life under the sport of football,
and even furthermore, like my family that you know, they
(06:55):
were able to experience, you know, stadiums all across the country,
Rose Bowls, Super Bowls, all American games, like it was
a family thing, right, And even though you made a
good point, like yeah, I'm a brother, I'm a husband,
and I'm a son, all those things, but like buy
and large, there the relationship that's framed between myself and
(07:16):
those other individuals, you know, the glue Buy and large.
A lot of times was football, right because it was
all consuming, all everything, etc. And so I really had
to strip it down right because everybody looks at you
and says like, oh, you you know you made some
money or you you know you have some sort of
like success, right, and things should be fine and things
(07:37):
should be okay. And I always tell people now, I'm like, look, yes,
money is very important. I'm not here to say that
it's not. But I'm also here to say that it
does not buy you peace and happiness. Cannot and will
not do that. And so it's really really important not
to confuse that because you couldn't pay your way through
the transition. You actually had to just go through it.
(08:00):
Yeah too, that's the only way it's going through. Can't
go around it, can buy yourself, can buy your way
out of it. You have to change happens with it, right,
And I had to take that journey in word to
really like understand myself for the first time maybe ever
or a really really long time two things, and then
I'm gonna pivot back to this point because I'm sitting
(08:21):
up here like I've always wanted to be on the
football field and somebody will run into me at full speed.
But I'm like, pad, I'm wide receiver. I can see that,
but I'm padded like one thousand extra. But somebody said, Michelle,
you will probably die of somebody running into your little
(08:45):
tail at full speed. I'm like, well, I just want
to know what makes a person just how can they
take it? And I not be able to They're like
they're about two hundred pounds more. You know. Secondly, as
you're talking, not to be ate from these points you're making.
Did me and you meet somewhere? We did? We met
at a Dizzy's restaurant or something like that in the
(09:08):
South Luke. It was a while ago. It was agog,
It was a while ago, and I believe we were
having Did we have this discussion about alchemy? It was
probably like bubbling up within me, like alchemy is it
some of all my life's experiences And I'm gonna get there.
I'm gonna go there. But I'm sitting here as we're talking,
like I've had a conversation with you in real life,
(09:33):
not just on the podcast. Yeah, I'm a real person.
I had a conversation with you in real life. Oh mg, okay, okay, okay.
Now going back to you feeling like, okay, reality is
hitting and feeling like you can identify it in other
(09:55):
football players and are you able to kind of warn
them and say, hey, it's a possibility's some depression is
going to set in some prolonged sadness, right, And that
was it that for you? Was it called depression when
when I was transfer trans transitioning and listening out, Yes, sir, yeah,
it was. You know, we had to put some language
(10:17):
to it, name it, identify it so that we could
correct it. Right. But even with that whole process, And
that's why I say, like, you know, I couldn't really
buy my way to help, Like if I went through
you know, quite a few number of providers before I
found one who understood me. Are you okay? So like
it just wasn't like old, go see one person then
everything is okay. That was not the case. Okay, So
(10:41):
this podcast, the foundation of it is mental health. Getting
into that moment when you were like, when was that
moment and you don't have to be specific. When did
you realize you were like that. I wouldn't say bad
because having depression you're not a bad person, but it
was bad enough for you to say I need help. Yeah,
I mean I think I was just not feeling like myself,
(11:03):
and I was recognizing that in my engagement with my family,
you know, my wife, my children, extended family members, mom, dad,
like even in conversations. And then also I just retrospectively
looked at myself, what is my relationship with myself? I
was not taking good care of myself, right, And it
wasn't because I didn't know how. It was because I
(11:26):
was just in like a depressive state and didn't feel
like it or didn't want to or just you know,
it was just heavy, you know what I mean. Those
were like the two real big things that primarily hit me.
Like I lost twenty five pounds, and I'm not a
huge guy, right, so imagine me like losing twenty five
pounds just solely due to some of the physical symptoms
(11:46):
where you didn't have an appetite, Yeah, just poor appetite. Yeah,
all the above, not working out, not exercising what I
want to hear, the listeners. And the depression is you
can lose your appetite and lose your interests in things
that you normally wants to working out, hanging out with
your friends, eating, Well, you don't have that desire to
(12:06):
do that anymore. Wow. Yeah, And again it wasn't because
I didn't know how Like that's what I did my
entire life, and I didn't think that the day the
day would ever come where it's like, oh man, I
don't want to go to the gym, or I don't
feel like going to the gym. Why Because I was
doing it every day so like it was a part
of my DNA right, And then to go from the
complete opposite where I'm not doing that at all. I'm
(12:30):
not taking good care of myself. Again, like the physical
mental process that was just feeding one another because I
was feeling bad physically that was impacting my mental and
my mental state was not was prohibiting me from taking
any physical activity. So it's just like this really nasty
cycle that kind of put me in a really bad spot.
Thank you for being open to answering those questions to
tell that listener what this feels like and the steps
(12:54):
that you took to like you said, you got on
the phone got a practitioner, but she didn't You probably
didn't have a match with the first one. So, like
you said, you're going to go through some practitioners maybe
before you like quote unquote find the one. Yeah, And
that's you know, that's how this system is set up, right,
Like it's hard to really know one what you're looking for,
(13:15):
right because you don't have a strong sense of what's
going on inside. You just know that you need help.
And so even just like starting the process, even before that,
you know around like stigmas like do you feel like
something's wrong with you or do you feel guilt and
shame or even feeling this way, And that's phibiting you
from even looking right and you start to look, you
don't know what you're looking for, trying to like you know,
(13:35):
bumping your head left them right to get to the
right landing spot. You find somebody, and then all these
access bearers show up. Can I have this? Like even
for me? I was like, man, like, therapy is expensive,
like and it costs a lot of money on a
regular basis to like take care of yourself in that way.
You know, access issues. My therapists have been all over
the map. I've had to drive small, short distances and
far distances, all these things kind of getting a way of, like,
(13:58):
you know, get help and support me. And particularly for
folks who you are maybe in disadvantaged financial situation sims, etc.
As y'all are listening, I really pray that you are
maybe doing some reflection. And I'm not saying everybody that's
listening to this episode is depressed, having anxiety or another
(14:19):
diagnosed situation going on, So I'm not saying that. But
my hope is that maybe you identify things that are
going on in a friend or a loved one that
you can definitely help them and guide them to get
the help that they need. And guess what, I'm going
to lead you to where they can possibly get some help,
(14:40):
because yes, I read his amazing resume of being an
NFL veteran Super Bowl champion, a fellow podcaster as well,
but today he sits in the seat of CEO and
founder of Alchemy Health, which is a platform that offers
culturally centered therapists, lad courses y'all, and expert guided mindfulness
(15:03):
and meditation practices. Listen, y'all, black people, people of color, period,
but especially black people, we needed a focus on mental health,
right and especially in our community where we are known
for sweeping stuff under the rug. We don't talk about things,
or you might be taught if you want to talk
about it, pray about it, you know. And did you
(15:26):
have any of those reservations for seeking out mental health
because of that and culture? No, Honestly, that's really what
really drove me to start the company, to really like
expand not only the conversation, but like how we think
about caring for ourselves. And it got to the point
for me personally and then also two for my family members,
(15:50):
Like during this whole time or retirement, I saw type
two diabetes and amputations. My father in law passed away
from at an early age from a heart attack, my
grandmother had a stroke. There was just a lot of
things that were kind of happening, and my grandfather passed
away from all his armors in dementia. There was a
lot of things that were happening not only into me,
but my family. And so I'm just sitting here kind
(16:12):
of doing some math around like if I'm going through
what I'm going through, my family is going through what
they're going through. Professionally, I was in like the startup ecosystem,
and I would see like, you know, venture capital money
and go here, venture capital money, go there, and it's
all like quote supposed to be solving a problem. And
I'm like, well, okay, I got a big problem here,
and my family is going through a big problem as well,
(16:34):
and I don't see no dollars or no money or
no ideas coming to like to like appropriately go out
into the water. So that was a context that like
I just knew that I had quite frankly, just had enough.
And I was like, look, if I'm going through it,
then I know my people were going through it. I
know my community is going through it. And so that's
what gave me like the courage. Albeit with all like
(16:55):
the you know, potential negatives or potential setbacks that men
or even with bringing a business to life, I had
to do it right. Like I just felt like such
a strong calling to to execute on this idea and
I haven't looked back since it's so good. Did you
feel that you received any pushback from men, you know,
athletes because of that whole matulness of sports. Nah, everybody's
(17:19):
been leaning in quite frankly, like I'm a living breathing,
you know, example of like the power of vulnerability, and
like when you just lead and just be real with
people and liket it like there's a connection. And particularly
over just these last few years, like we've all been
through something. So I don't walk around here and act
like things are okay because of the right. So at
(17:42):
some point over the last two years you you was like, damn,
this shit is crazy, right, and so like we we
have to kind of get to a place like being
real with one another. Uh, And that's what I've always
been leading with, Like I have no problems telling my story,
I have no problems like hearing other stories, and like
being the you know, the person that is like on
a day to day basis committed to helping people work
(18:04):
through things. So so good, so good. You said you
felt that it was a calling and you have not
looked back, sin and y'all, that's got to be encouraging
for people, you know, who are probably on the verge
of starting some type of venture, opening some type of
business that no one is doing, or it's kind of
(18:25):
opposite of what you're known for. And you said you
have not looked back. That is amazing. It is I'm
super blessed, unfortunate. You know, we talked about my sports
career that end and of itself was a dream come
true and my life's passion. I did it for twenty
four years, and so now here I am having those
(18:45):
same feelings about what I'm doing right now. So I'm
very less unfortunate to like, you know, find my life's
passion two times yes, and so like, And that's what
I was looking for. I was looking for something that, like,
I could take all the value and the skill, the discipline,
the work ethic, Where can I channel that energy next?
And ultimately I found it in alchemies. Listen, y'all, assignments change.
(19:09):
When you were in school, we didn't get the same assignment.
We had different assignments daily. So imagine through life, as
you are evolving and going into different things, your assignment
in various seasons of your life will change. And we're
so glad that you are walking in your assignment. You
(19:31):
were saying that you want to create generational health for
Black culture. Do you feel that there are people of
our culture who don't take mental health seriously? Yeah, I
think there's probably a subset of the culture who may
not believe in it. But ultimately I think the bigger
thing to focus on is we don't know what we
(19:51):
don't know as relates to mental health. Yeah, and I
think that's just general for like the macro society as well. Like,
this whole conversation around mental health is league less than
five years old. Like when I was going through what
I was going through in twenty sixteen, nobody was talking
about it, talk about it. There was no there was
nothing out there. So like, this conversation is still relatively
(20:12):
new for our country as a whole, but particularly for
our community, and so like I'm extremely mindful of that.
That's why we started with like video courses, like look,
how can we like have the most efficient, impalatable entry
point for you and stuff? Just on your radar here
watching y'all. Alchemy is an app by the way, a
(20:33):
l K E. M E. Where he's talking about these
courses y'all. He even has it for y'all Android users. Yeah,
y'all can download. Y'all can download this amazing app. I know.
In twenty thirteen, I was promoting a Broadway musical that
I was touring in and that was the first time
I publicly mentioned that I had been dealing with depression,
(20:57):
and with the journalist Ryan, I was like, certainly this
is off the record, or certainly this ain't gonna make
the interview. I'm promoting a Broadway show. Yo. It made
that part of the interview and it went everywhere, and
I thought that I would be a liability and I
(21:17):
would be seen as someone because when you when you
said no one talks about mental health, some of it
is because you don't want to be looked at as
crazy or something wrong with this person. Absolutely she be
able to be dependable, will she be able to work,
and will he be able to perform? But I'm so thankful.
Like you said, I don't care if somebody who's calling
it a trend. No, it is something that needs to
(21:39):
be talked about. Do you think that church culture inhibits
this conversation in some ways? I don't know your background
with church, and you know, oh yeah, I grew up
with the church my whole life experience. I grew up
very black and about this church. You know bt comic
for you, I mean the whole nine, very very black,
(22:00):
particularly as it relates to the church. I think it's uh,
it's still a new conversation, right and just because you
go to therapist does not mean that you don't believe
in God, Jesus or what the church stands for represents, right, Um,
you know Biblically it says faith without works, is that right? So,
like we got to start putting some activity to the
(22:21):
things that we need in our life. And we can't
always just pray things away. Yeah, right, we show activity.
We have to like be proactive in that and ultimately
have faith and confidence that like whatever we do and
we do it with like high integrity and a positive nature,
like our steps are ordered to get us to the
right direction. You know. We got to put a reverend
in front of your name, right word. Yeah, we got
(22:45):
to the conversation though, and we got some plans to
really like think about that and some meditation like you know,
just like warming up the conversation ultimately, because that's about
you know all right? Well, Alchemy uses the term rooted
rested resistance through recovery. Can you dive in unpack that? Yeah.
(23:06):
A lot of what we do is like we put
on programming for the community. So like you talked about
like our iOS android, the bulk of our content library
is available for free. We got about undered assets on
our library that are just completely available for you to
just like engage with. But as it relates to like
rooted in resistance, you know, like we always want to
(23:26):
provide like the right language for folks to one feel
empowered and also inspired. Yeah, right, talk about like rooted
like that means you're in there, and we want people
to feel rooted within the Alchemy community one thousand percent.
So a lot of things that we'll talk about tomorrow
will be around like resistance, will be around resilience and
ultimately giving you the skills and tools to help you
(23:48):
live a healthier life. So good. You've also carved out
the Alchemy Athlete Coalition partnership with athletes brands and organizations
dedicated to providing mental health sources, education awareness to athletes.
Do you think that there is a worst stigma in
sports for men to not share about their mental health needs. No,
(24:11):
I think there is, right, and I think it's particularly
with men. A lot of times with me leading US
organization people, because I'm a black man, they're like, oh,
you're doing this for men only. I'm like no, But
that I think speaks to just like how imbalanced the
scale is and lack of representation in the space, and
I think that stems from not only just see the
(24:32):
nature of like how folks were shown up, but more importantly,
but like, as men, more times than not, we don't
always have the language or the comfort level to like
share how we're feeling, and I think that ultimately creates
a stigma around it, particularly for men. And so when
I watched to ac like, I was essentially kind of
(24:54):
going back to the raison detri why I started the
company in the first place. I told you, like, you know,
mental health showed up on my rate when I was
no longer an athlete. I was like, oh, like, this
is crazy. And through that experience again, I know that
I'm not the only one that goes through that. You know.
I always walk around with two really really big identities
black man too, athlete. I will never not be an athlete,
(25:14):
right like super Bowl Champion always be in front of
my name, like all these things, and so like, I
just find ways to lean into things that I know
and communities that I care about to ultimately affect change
absolutely absolutely. I'm curious to know what your thoughts about
depression in men and do you think they mask their
depression and anxiety differently from women. And if so, what
(25:38):
are things that we as women can look for symptoms
and men? Yeah, I think the answers to that would
be yes, for sure masking it. And again, you know
there are stereotypes and you know, expectations that I think
contribute to that. And then so what would be the
things that you can look for? I would say just
like probably demeanor engagement, right like even with me, like
(26:04):
I visibly look different, right yo? Are you good? Something's
going on? Are you okay? Those types of things, But
then also to what I really believe needs to happen,
particularly as relates to men and also black men, it's
just to have like that space, right Like a lot
of times we need room and agency just to kind
(26:25):
of be. And when I think about like how we
show up in society, we get pooled in a lot
of different directions, right Like there's this desire to be
fulfilled from a professional and career development standpoint, there's another
pool to like be the leaders of the culture protect,
and then and then this third dynamic of just like
(26:48):
finding time for yourself, right like either like I'm a dad,
I'm a husband, I'm always like it was explained to
me one day, like the day can at time show
up as a dad at depletion right from the time
that I would it up. I'm like giving hair giving there,
giving their giving the air, giving their giving there, But
like who is effectively feeling my cup right outside of me?
(27:08):
And I don't. I don't know if particularly black men
get our cups filled enough or we have the space
to fill our own cup right. And space could be
like language, it could be you know, routine, but I
do think space is needed to really kind of ensure
that we get what we need to be the best
and highest versions of ourselves. And not only space, but
(27:30):
it's safe space to be able to share meaning if
someone could you imagine, yo, I'm not feeling like myself today. Man,
won't you do about you for yourself? You was just
at sold to field. But that's not creating a safe space,
A safe space meaning space to let what my comment,
what I just said, to let it breathe, let it go,
(27:52):
you know, like we say in music, let the track breathe,
let my let what I just shared with you, let
it breathe. Before we wrap this on, I have to
ask you this because on your ig you talk about
your love for coffee, black coffee. I need to know
(28:13):
what kind I love coffee. I gotta have my one
cup of day oh wow, one, Yeah, because if I
have two, I am literally crawling up the walls. I
can only do one cup. Yeah, I do love some
black coffee, particularly cold brew. That's what I'm sipping on
right now. I'm sipping on the cold brew. Yeah. So
I'll have the black coal brew as my regular, and
(28:34):
I'm either getting that from Starbucks with a shot of
espresso and or buy a lot of like canned cold
brew from this black owned coffee company, Black and Bolt. Okay,
so you don't do no this, just black coffee, like
you don't do no cream, no sugar, just black. My
dad used to do that. My granny did too. I mean,
(28:58):
good coffee doesn't need anything. If you put too much peper,
too much coffee in thereat, it turns in the hot
chocolate or something. That is true. And I'm trying to
keep this conversation not gross. We do no coffee to
be a natural laxative, especially when you just drink it black.
So I'm going to assume it's important to say it
is important to stay regular I got. I got so
(29:20):
many jokes on this, but I was like, let me
ask a question because I feel like, you know, the
conversation of mental health has to be taken seriously, but
at times it can be very heavy. And you just
wrapped up your Black Health Virtual Summit. You have panel
discussions on breaking generational cycles and embracing Black self care,
(29:43):
and you also had exclusive meditation sessions. How did it
feel to have this virtual health Summit? It feels amazing,
you know. Anytime that we're able to put something on
for the community and then have like the type of
response in attendance and registrations that show up, it truly
warms my heart. You know. It really just speaks to
(30:06):
the work that we do on a daily basis and
how important it is. And so really excited about turned out. Yeah,
well we are so excited, y'all. Yes please. He is
sitting in the seat today of CEO and founder of
Alchemy Health. And again, like we said, it is a
platform that offers culturally centered therapists led courses because there
(30:28):
are a lot of people that feel like, well, I
want someone that looks like me to provide therapy because
I feel like they will understand best what I've gone through,
a meditation practices, guided mindfulness, and so y'all get into
Alchemy Health. It is available right now. Brian, thank you
for being a champion, a champion of mental health, and
(30:51):
thank you for paying attention to yourself and going to
get to help when you needed it. Thank you so much.
I really enjoyed it at it. I'm excited. And when
it it's warmer, I'll be in Chicago, all right, Well
you have to let me know, and it's not gonna
get warm until June. So but you already knew that, right,
I got it. I'm supposed to come there in March
for work, but I'm gonna be in and out for
(31:12):
that reason. But we'll have to chop it up at
one of the easy spots. And it's so good to
see you. Yeah, it's good to see you as well.
Thanks again for having me on. I appreciate it. Yes, sir,
take care. Checking In with Michelle Williams is a production
(32:41):
of iHeartRadio and The Black Effect. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen
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