August 6, 2020 • 26 mins
Americans aren't hungry because of drought or famine. Some say Americans are hungry because there isn't political will to make sure everyone is fed. How did we get here? In this episode, Tom Colicchio adds a chapter in his food policy primer season. He's joined by Joel Berg, CEO of Hunger Free America, who provides a short lesson in U.S. nutrition assistance programs and the future of fighting food insecurity in America.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I'm Tom Coluchio, and this is Citizen Chef. I've been
a working chef in New York City for close to
forty years now, and uh, it's chefs. I think we
all tend to gravitate towards anti hunger organizations. I think,
you know, for me personally, we feed a lot of people,
and our restaurants are obviously, you know, a little more
expensive than an average but I also really believe that
(00:21):
food is a right and everyone should have an access
to healthy and affordable food. So I thought I knew
a little bit about, you know, the issues of hunger
in this country, and I kind of thought I had
a bit of an education around the issue. And then
a couple of years back, seven or eight years ago,
my wife was mentoring a young girl who, um his
family was living in the shelter, and it was clear
(00:43):
that she was often hungry, and she would hang out
and we'd have dinner, and we started sending food a home,
and we realized that we were just putting a band
aid on on a problem and that there was a
bigger issue. And right away we found out things that
I really wasn't aware of. People aren't hungry in this
country because of drought or war or famine. People are
(01:06):
hungry because we don't have the political will to make
sure everyone is fed. Clearly, there's enough food in this country.
My wife decided to explore that and she made a
documentary film called A Place at the Table. So as
we explored this issue and made the film, it really
gave me an opportunity to sort of try to do
whatever I could to help fight against hunger in this country.
(01:29):
I co founded an organization called Food Policy Action, and
one of the things that we focused on was snap
and making sure the program is as robust as possible.
So I spent a good amount of time on the
hill and meeting with congressional members to try to get
them to other, you know, support the program and some
cases make sure there weren't cuts to the program. Millions
(01:49):
of Americans are about to lose everything that they've worked
for and not be able to put food on the table,
not to be able to take care of their families.
This pandemic is not over. This is no time to
tell the American people you're on your own. One thing
I just can't understand is how they could even show
their faces by saying food stamps you want more money
for food stamps, So why would we Why would we
(02:11):
do that? Well, because people are hungry in America, doesn't
that motivate you. We're trying to get Congress to increase
the SNAP benefits by because food prices are going up,
and you know, most people who are on SNAP, they'll
(02:33):
tell you that their dollars run out three quarters of
the way through the month that work goes on. Today,
I mean right now with COVID, so many more people
are are in need of SNAP. The Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program,
formerly known as food stamps, is the main governmental program
that puts dollars into the hands of people who are
struggling to feed their families. The average person who receives
(02:55):
SNAP has at least one member of the family working.
So the idea that people are just not working and
just living off the government is really not true. It's
people who are working, but are working in jobs that
are paying minimum wage and and they're struggling to make
ends meet. I think some of my you know, nutritionist
friends act like food is merely a nutrition delivery system,
(03:21):
like out of the JETSUS, where the only reason for
low income people to get food is some sort of
nutrition pellet to meet their nutritional needs, and they totally
deny the whole role of pleasure and eating. Someone who
I've really come to rely on is Joel b. Joel
is the CEO of Hunger Free America and the author
of America, Can We Talk? And All You Can Eat.
(03:44):
Joel has been, you know, on the front lines fighting
this fight for a long time. So if I'm going
to the hill to lobby around SNAP or WICK, I
know I can call Joel and get information that I need.
That's my rand for the day. I hope you enjoyed it.
Stay in touch. I also know I'm going to get
a lot of wind and and some dry humor in
(04:04):
there as well. And Joe ror to COVID there were
thirty million Americans that were on SNAP. Thirty million Americans
are probably a little more of every single day trying
to figure out how they're gonna put food on the table. Now,
COVID those numbers are way up. We're seeing as much
as in some states. And and then on top of that,
(04:26):
you have the issue that food prices are rising very quickly.
People are are getting hungry in this country. We see
the lines, we see people waiting UH in their cars
for three hours to line up for a food bank
to help feed their families, and just kind of give
us an overview, you know, how, how did we get
here and where are we going from here? I apologize
(04:48):
if you hear ambulances going by outside my window in Brooklyn.
Unfortunately that is the soundscape. But currently the SNAP program
is an entitlement. And I'm not going to relitigate whether
it Bill Clinton was right or wrong to sign the
welfare reform bill, but I will point out but he
vetoed two previous versions of the bill that would have
(05:09):
ended SNAP as an entitlement, which meant would have ended
snaps ability to increase when the economy gets bad. And
so what SNAP did, because it is an entitlement, it
it nearly doubled in a few years following the two
thousand eight economic collapse. And so if there are let's
say thirty six million people in SNAP UH and the
(05:30):
government spending money on all those people, and the thirty
six million and first person is eligible for SNAP applies,
then the federal government is required by law to spend
more money on them. So what that means if there
is no possible way that you would be taking away
food from someone who needs it more than you. And
it's it's absolutely vital for people to know that if
(05:51):
they get this benefit, they're not taking away from someone else.
And I tell the story in my first book there
was someone panhandling outside my house in Brooklyn that ten
years ago and he said, I need money to feed myself.
And I said, well, this isn't your lucky day, but
I run an anti hunger group. I can help you get,
you know, food stamps that was called at the time.
And he said, I couldn't get those, and I go,
(06:13):
why not? He goes, my family would be ashamed. Let's say,
let me get this straight. You're less embarrassed, and you
think your family is less ashamed to uh to get
help from your neighbors, some of whom are are not unwealthy.
Then you are to get your help from your very
(06:35):
very very rich uncle called Uncle Sam. And he said absolutely.
And I think that's really unique to America. The politics
of race and the politics of shaming that are very
different than Europe. And europe most Europeans would probably be
far more likely to willingly get help from their government
than they would for their neighbors. And America were cons
(06:57):
into believing somehow how for low income people is somehow bad.
And I point out if if you know I'm writing
a commercial jet with a few hundred people on it,
and you know Jeff Bezos is riding a private jet
with one person on it, We're both getting exactly the
same help from government air traffic controllers. And yet he's
(07:19):
getting essentially three hundred times the help I am, because
I'm getting helplet's equally shared by three hundred passengers, and
he's getting that help himself. And so we have an
awfully skewed way of how we define who's dependent on
government and who's not. People are stretching their dollars as
much as they can, and it is somewhat restricted. You
can't buy things like diapers, and you can't buy, you know,
(07:43):
household cleaning supplies and things like that. It's only for food,
and there are restrictions there. It can't be used for alcohol,
it can't be used for cigarettes. I agree with those restrictions.
It can't even be used for toothpaste or diapers or
feminine hygiene products. I mean agree with that, but I
understand and some even of my friends who think of themselves.
(08:05):
Progressives want to demonize low income people. All they're doing
is buying soda with this. The most purchased product in
America would snap our bananas, and the shopping patterns of
people in Snap are fairly close to other low income
people who just can't often afford the healthiest food. You're
not allowed to buy prepared foods. You can't go to
a fast food restaurant and use snap. You can't buy
(08:28):
a rotisserie chicken, at least a hot rotisserie chicken. You
can buy a cold rotisserie chicken, but not a hot one,
even though you would have to spend more money as
a low income person to buy and then heat up,
you know, the cold chicken. And so again, it's really
about discriminating against poor people and really sending the message
(08:50):
they are somehow less worthy than everyone else. People haven't
focused on it nearly as much as they have. And
speaking Paul Ryan, you know, after his up one of
his parents died, he received Social Security Survivors benefits, essentially
a welfare payment. And Ben Carson, Trump's Housing secretary, who's
a big opponents of safety net programs, received food stamps
(09:13):
growing up. All these people who have amnesia about all
the help they got. And you know who doesn't want
a lifetime on snap? Snap recipients don't. Their dream isn't
a bigger, better Snap program. Their dream is having a
living wage job, so they don't need it. We're back,
(09:46):
So today I'm here with Joel Berg. Chill, Can you
give us a bit of history on hunger in this country?
The reason America has so much hunger and had so
much hunger even before this crisis, is that our political
system is fundamental, we broken. And there are some let's
say this isn't a political issue, this is the ultimate
political issue. America almost ended hunger entirely in the nineties
(10:10):
seventies because we had public policies that empowered unions to
create middle class jobs. Wages went up, and we had
an adequate government safety net to fill in the gaps
when that wasn't enough. And the reason hunger has been
skyrocketing over the last few decades is starting in the
Reagan era, we started rolling back the policies that worked,
(10:31):
rolling back living wage jobs, rolling back union protections, rolling
back the safety net. So by two thousand and eighteen
and theoretically the best economy in decades, the stock market
was skyrocketing through the roof. We had thirty seven million Americans,
including eleven million American children, living in homes that couldn't
(10:54):
afford enough food. And you know a lot of people
didn't want to hear it back into a thousand and eighteen,
but we said, oh my goodness, if in a good
economy we have tens of millions of Americans going hungry,
what's gonna happen when we had the next inevitable recession. Now,
even me with my chicken little mentality, there's the Dalli
show called me Mr. Frownie Pants. Even with my pessimism,
(11:17):
even I didn't suspect that the next downturn would be
this grave. So you had thirty seven million Americans who
are hungry. Before this, tens of millions of jobs went away.
Twenty nine million school meals a day, school lunches a
day that would have been provided. Half as many of
those school lunches a day that would have been school
breakfast that would have been provided went away. So twenty
(11:40):
nine million kids getting school meals no longer getting school
meals by and large, millions of kids in smaller kids
in daycare centers that we're getting meals at those daycare
centers no longer getting them, hundreds of thousands of seniors
getting meals at those senior centers no longer getting them.
And on top of that, we have a significant spike
(12:02):
in food prices. Just read that there's an average of
a six increase in food prices and for some items
and even higher spike. So everything that could go wrong
did wrong wrong. But most of this is not a
consequence of the fact that we have this horrible virus
that's certainly made this worse and was the precipitating spark.
(12:24):
But the reason we have such a crisis now, as
we had a pretty serious crisis before. There were two
things that really built the movement to end hunger in America.
Number one was a serious grassroots movement started by Doctor King,
the Poor People's Campaign, but continued after his death. A
lot of people have been taught that while King started
(12:46):
the Poor People's Campaign, it basically failed. He was assassinated
and that was that. That wasn't quite that led by
Reverend n Abernathy, who was really his co leader, and
much of the civil rights movement has really been washed
pun intended out of the history helped lead the Poor
People's Movement, and one of their top demands was the
creation of the modern nutrition assistant safety then, and that
(13:10):
is part of what generated this massive media coverage. Not
only did CBS, as you indicate, have a prime time
special for fifty minutes five zero minutes in prime time.
So n nineteen sixty nine there are a few dozen
network news stories on hunger and in America, you know,
Dr King said, what much does it profit a man
to be able to eat at integrated lunch counter if
(13:32):
he can't afford a hamburger? Dr King was pushing for
the expansion of programs like food stamps and and and
school breakfast. That's number one and number two. The media
didn't create this false equivalency, it said. The media then said,
the reason we have this problem is that government isn't
doing its job, and the Conservatives are opposing the expansion
(13:53):
of the government nutrition safety that and if we want
to be serious about ending hunger, only government has the
bill to to do that. And so really, I think
the only thing that's actually ever worked in all of
American social history is a grassroots movement that is really
fueled by the people most affected, but also convinces the
rest of the country, including using the media, that it's
(14:17):
in their self interest, in their moral interest, to do
something serious about this. And so Richard Nixon ran for
president basically denying hunger was a problem. My opponents are
making this up just to embarrass me. And within a
year Nixon was so moved by the politics of the
situation and the media of the situation. He was the
(14:37):
first president and only president to hold a White House
conference on hunger, and it resulted in very, very serious
things that laid down the predicate for the modern food
stand program. He created the Whip program, which helps pregnant
women and children under five. Nixon Krook and one of
America's greatest hunger fighters. The biggest advances were in the
(14:58):
late sixties and the Latin in the mid nineteen seventies.
So the biggest advance was nineteen seventy seven, when I said,
Dolan McGovern and then President Carter teamed up to create
what was really the modern food stamp program. Before that,
it was really a small discount coupon program, and if
you had literally no money in the bank, you couldn't
afford the discount coupons. And you've got no food, and
(15:20):
so we created this modern program. Who you know, anyone
who is really poor. You know, if you were your
legal residents of the United States, you could get these benefits.
And soon after that happened, people like Ronald Reagan started
demonizing the program and frankly, very racially biased ways. He
used the term young bucks on food stamps, which, by
(15:41):
anyone's account, was a clear attempt to imply this was young,
healthy African American men who are getting food stamps, when
in fact, throughout the program's existence, Uh, the largest number
of people getting food stamps and today the programs called snapped,
the largest number of people getting help are white. But
that's not what the right wanted to give the country
(16:03):
the impression of. And starting in the Reagan era, there
were billions of dollars cuts in and snap. A little
of that was restored under the beginning of the Clinton administration,
but then the Welfare Reform Bill of cut them some more. Uh,
you know, w had a mixed message on this. But
then you know, when Paul Ryan was in Congress, he
(16:25):
spent virtually his entire time as as Speaker and as
Budget Committee chair trying to slash these benefits and now
the Trump administration is continuing to do that as well.
The perhaps out of all the cruel things the Trump
administration to have done or tried to do, perhaps the
most amazing is that they're trying to say that if
(16:46):
you don't work, if you don't work twenty hours or
more outside the home, they don't count raising children as work,
at least for poor people. If you don't work twenty
hours or a week outside the home, and document that
you shouldn't be able to at government food, you shouldn't
be able to get government health care, you shouldn't be
able to get government housing. Never before, really have I
(17:06):
seen such a cruel and morally bankrupt budget. It dismantles
our nation's basic living standards, which Americans have turned to
for decades. This budget, and you know this, it will
push millions of people into poverty and over the edge.
(17:27):
I'd like to just ask you, how are people going
to eat when they need a temporary help in hand?
With the cut of a hundred and ninety million dollars
in food assistance, Then you add these onerous work requirements,
and then yet you cut one point three billion in
workforce training programs so people cannot be trained to retrain
(17:51):
for jobs. And so this was a crazy thing to
do in good times, and but now in bad times,
a federal judge put that rule on hold related to
food and say, you know, we're in this unemployment crisis.
That's sort of ridiculous to say you can't get food
if you're not working. And the Trump administration actually went
(18:13):
to court spent our tax dollarge to go to court
to appeal this. So in the height of the worst
economic collapse since the depression, they're still trying to deny
my food from the unemployed. This is this is is
if Ebernez or Scrooge had those nightmares, these ghosts came
to him, scared the dickens out of him, and then
he still without dickensing in dickens. So that's the long
(18:37):
story of of of of how uh these programs have
been demonized. The vast majority of people getting help from
these programs are working. They're just not earning enough money.
And rather than doing the obvious thing is rewarding work
by giving working people more food and by raising the
minimum wage. Uh, they want a race bait to convince
their base that somehow they shouldn't be too upset if
(19:00):
they're losing food because those other people are being shafted
even more. And the first day of the month, supermarkets
will tell you that people are lined up waiting for
the doors to open up in a supermarket so people
can come back in and shop because the first of
the month that's when the EBT cards are replenished. So
you know, it's it's a program that works. It's also
(19:22):
a program that has the least amount of fraud, wasted
abuse of any governmental program. And yet you'll hear people
talk constantly about the fraud and abuse. Now, the only
thing is is sometimes you're here incidence of people who
sell their benefits. Well, they're doing that because they're again
they're not they're not selling it to buy drugs. They're
selling it because they gotta buy diapers and things like
that that aren't included. But it's one of the lowest
(19:44):
to have any government program. Well, Miss Sullivan, let me
let me allow you to address this issue of fraud.
I think that this comes up repeatedly. Um, can you
comment on this, and uh, you know Mr Dolphson's comments
in that regard to here's the thing nobody is going
to deny that fraud or waste. Your abuse doesn't exist.
(20:05):
It is next to minimal. But why are we focusing
so much attention on that, especially when it is such
a small portion. What we need to be focused on
is families like mine who will be impacted. I am
not a fraud. I work. I do everything that I
can to to provide the best, just like everybody in
this room does. I want the best for my children,
(20:25):
and feeding them healthy food is the is the foundation
for them to build. That's what we need to be
focused on. I think the takes food from them. I
think there's a misconception that you want to be on
snap aid. What's what's your what's your response to that?
My response is I absolutely do not. Um we we have.
There's so much shame associated with that. You know, again,
(20:46):
tell us about that. Why is there shame associated with
because people people will assume that because we're accessing programs
that we are frauds, because there are people that are
out there spreading that type of misinformation. We become political
footballs in this in this game that our children, the
most vulnerable, the least able to stand up and defend themselves,
(21:08):
are essentially being told to do your part. You know,
pay pay your way. Listen, I work. I happen to
live in a state that is one of the most
expensive in the country. Our energy costs are among the highest.
It is if we struggle, and we are hardly the
only ones. We the people that are being impacted, need
to be in these spaces where these policies are being
(21:30):
discussed so that we can take back the narrative about ourselves.
We know who we are as people, We know our
value in our communities and to our families, and it's
time that we control that conversation and stop allowing people
like this gentleman over here to my left to control
that narrative about us. So this idea that people are
(22:01):
just you know, miss using the system and they are
on Snap forever, it's just it's just not it's not true.
And you know, the other thing that you hear is
when people are saying, well that people are a line
they're buying uh you know, you know, junk junk food
and are they're buying lobsters and and and expensive meats
with Snap, That's typically not the case. So there's family
(22:22):
A and family be. They're both poor, uh, they're both
getting uh Snap benefits and they're both working, and they
get what's called the earn's income tax credits, a tax
refunds for working poor people. Family A puts that in
the bank to say, for their kids college education. Family
B buys a big screen TV. Now I don't garage
(22:43):
your family be the big screen TV. That might be
the only entertainment they watch. Uh. Top Chef may also
be their babysitter. Wh and then then they're working. At
least the kids can learn to cook. I don't begrudge
them that. They probably don't have a They probably don't
have a movie theory are in their neighborhood. They if
they do, they can't afford it. They may not have
a safe public part. But so I don't beg graduate
(23:05):
family BE spending the money on a big screen TV.
But right now in many states, family BE who spent
the money would get to keep their snap benefits, and
family A who saved the money to be able to
send their kids through college would lose the benefits. And
whether you're a conservative, moderate, or progressive, that makes no
(23:25):
sense as public policy whatsoever. But a lot of this
isn't based on common sense. It's based on the notion
that we want to punish poor people, and anything that
seems too luxurious, Uh, you shouldn't be able to get SNAP,
would be too luxurious to to be able to have
in the bank and still get SNAP. If you think
(23:46):
that feeding people in this country that are hungry, if
you think it's important, then that's one question that I
would ask someone who's running for Congress or someone who's
running for a higher office, you know, if that's something
they would support, if that's something that you can are about.
You know, again, these are the these are the questions
that you need to ask people before they're elected into office,
and then you hold you hold their their feet to
(24:06):
the fire once they're there. And so if you listen
to this episode and you decide this is something you
really care about and for all the reasons that we're
talking about, then I think it is it's more than
fair to ask that question. If you if you have
access to someone before you vote for them, and ask
that question, go on on their websites and see if
they have anything about SNAP, are any other programs that
(24:28):
they think would help people who need Now the bill
that's being considered by the House of Representatives and May
of this year was saying that we should waive those
requirements during the pandemic. Will see if that happens. The
other restriction is at most places in most parts of
the United States, as you know, Tom, you cannot use
Snap at restaurants. Now, not every restaurant in every neighborhood
(24:50):
would be a good candidate to accept SNAP, but many
would be. So there's a very small pilot project that
only a few states have that only allow a few
parts of those states, only a few populations, people with disabilities,
of senior citizens, and homeless people to use Snap in
certain limited restaurants. I do think that should be expanded.
(25:11):
And as you've been leading the way to have broader
really payments to the restaurant industry to keep workers employed
and and to make sure that you can pay your
your suppliers and rent and all those other things, I
think that makes sense. And so allowing restaurants to accept
Snap is not the ends all or the be all
of of the problems besetting the restaurant industry, but it
(25:34):
surely would help, and it would surely help lowing from
people to have more options. I thought it was important
that if we were gonna discuss the issue of hunger
that Joe will be the perfect person to talk to it.
Thank you Tom for having me on, and and and
and thank you for all you and your family have
done to fight against Hunguer and to build uh more
(25:55):
just sustainable food systems. I want to thank our guests
and Kristen Castri and Laurie Silverbush at a place at
the table. Citizen Chef with Me Tom Colokio is a
production of I Heart Media. Christopher Hasiotis is our executive producer,
Jescelyn Shield is our researcher, and Gabrielle Collins is our
producer and editor. Now make sure to subscribe and leave
(26:16):
a rating on our show is always thanks for listening
and we'll catch you next week.
I'm Tom Coluchio, and this is Citizen Chef. I've been
a working chef in New York City for close to
forty years now, and uh, it's chefs. I think we
all tend to gravitate towards anti hunger organizations. I think,
you know, for me personally, we feed a lot of people,
and our restaurants are obviously, you know, a little more
expensive than an average but I also really believe that
(00:21):
food is a right and everyone should have an access
to healthy and affordable food. So I thought I knew
a little bit about, you know, the issues of hunger
in this country, and I kind of thought I had
a bit of an education around the issue. And then
a couple of years back, seven or eight years ago,
my wife was mentoring a young girl who, um his
family was living in the shelter, and it was clear
(00:43):
that she was often hungry, and she would hang out
and we'd have dinner, and we started sending food a home,
and we realized that we were just putting a band
aid on on a problem and that there was a
bigger issue. And right away we found out things that
I really wasn't aware of. People aren't hungry in this
country because of drought or war or famine. People are
(01:06):
hungry because we don't have the political will to make
sure everyone is fed. Clearly, there's enough food in this country.
My wife decided to explore that and she made a
documentary film called A Place at the Table. So as
we explored this issue and made the film, it really
gave me an opportunity to sort of try to do
whatever I could to help fight against hunger in this country.
(01:29):
I co founded an organization called Food Policy Action, and
one of the things that we focused on was snap
and making sure the program is as robust as possible.
So I spent a good amount of time on the
hill and meeting with congressional members to try to get
them to other, you know, support the program and some
cases make sure there weren't cuts to the program. Millions
(01:49):
of Americans are about to lose everything that they've worked
for and not be able to put food on the table,
not to be able to take care of their families.
This pandemic is not over. This is no time to
tell the American people you're on your own. One thing
I just can't understand is how they could even show
their faces by saying food stamps you want more money
for food stamps, So why would we Why would we
(02:11):
do that? Well, because people are hungry in America, doesn't
that motivate you. We're trying to get Congress to increase
the SNAP benefits by because food prices are going up,
and you know, most people who are on SNAP, they'll
(02:33):
tell you that their dollars run out three quarters of
the way through the month that work goes on. Today,
I mean right now with COVID, so many more people
are are in need of SNAP. The Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program,
formerly known as food stamps, is the main governmental program
that puts dollars into the hands of people who are
struggling to feed their families. The average person who receives
(02:55):
SNAP has at least one member of the family working.
So the idea that people are just not working and
just living off the government is really not true. It's
people who are working, but are working in jobs that
are paying minimum wage and and they're struggling to make
ends meet. I think some of my you know, nutritionist
friends act like food is merely a nutrition delivery system,
(03:21):
like out of the JETSUS, where the only reason for
low income people to get food is some sort of
nutrition pellet to meet their nutritional needs, and they totally
deny the whole role of pleasure and eating. Someone who
I've really come to rely on is Joel b. Joel
is the CEO of Hunger Free America and the author
of America, Can We Talk? And All You Can Eat.
(03:44):
Joel has been, you know, on the front lines fighting
this fight for a long time. So if I'm going
to the hill to lobby around SNAP or WICK, I
know I can call Joel and get information that I need.
That's my rand for the day. I hope you enjoyed it.
Stay in touch. I also know I'm going to get
a lot of wind and and some dry humor in
(04:04):
there as well. And Joe ror to COVID there were
thirty million Americans that were on SNAP. Thirty million Americans
are probably a little more of every single day trying
to figure out how they're gonna put food on the table. Now,
COVID those numbers are way up. We're seeing as much
as in some states. And and then on top of that,
(04:26):
you have the issue that food prices are rising very quickly.
People are are getting hungry in this country. We see
the lines, we see people waiting UH in their cars
for three hours to line up for a food bank
to help feed their families, and just kind of give
us an overview, you know, how, how did we get
here and where are we going from here? I apologize
(04:48):
if you hear ambulances going by outside my window in Brooklyn.
Unfortunately that is the soundscape. But currently the SNAP program
is an entitlement. And I'm not going to relitigate whether
it Bill Clinton was right or wrong to sign the
welfare reform bill, but I will point out but he
vetoed two previous versions of the bill that would have
(05:09):
ended SNAP as an entitlement, which meant would have ended
snaps ability to increase when the economy gets bad. And
so what SNAP did, because it is an entitlement, it
it nearly doubled in a few years following the two
thousand eight economic collapse. And so if there are let's
say thirty six million people in SNAP UH and the
(05:30):
government spending money on all those people, and the thirty
six million and first person is eligible for SNAP applies,
then the federal government is required by law to spend
more money on them. So what that means if there
is no possible way that you would be taking away
food from someone who needs it more than you. And
it's it's absolutely vital for people to know that if
(05:51):
they get this benefit, they're not taking away from someone else.
And I tell the story in my first book there
was someone panhandling outside my house in Brooklyn that ten
years ago and he said, I need money to feed myself.
And I said, well, this isn't your lucky day, but
I run an anti hunger group. I can help you get,
you know, food stamps that was called at the time.
And he said, I couldn't get those, and I go,
(06:13):
why not? He goes, my family would be ashamed. Let's say,
let me get this straight. You're less embarrassed, and you
think your family is less ashamed to uh to get
help from your neighbors, some of whom are are not unwealthy.
Then you are to get your help from your very
(06:35):
very very rich uncle called Uncle Sam. And he said absolutely.
And I think that's really unique to America. The politics
of race and the politics of shaming that are very
different than Europe. And europe most Europeans would probably be
far more likely to willingly get help from their government
than they would for their neighbors. And America were cons
(06:57):
into believing somehow how for low income people is somehow bad.
And I point out if if you know I'm writing
a commercial jet with a few hundred people on it,
and you know Jeff Bezos is riding a private jet
with one person on it, We're both getting exactly the
same help from government air traffic controllers. And yet he's
(07:19):
getting essentially three hundred times the help I am, because
I'm getting helplet's equally shared by three hundred passengers, and
he's getting that help himself. And so we have an
awfully skewed way of how we define who's dependent on
government and who's not. People are stretching their dollars as
much as they can, and it is somewhat restricted. You
can't buy things like diapers, and you can't buy, you know,
(07:43):
household cleaning supplies and things like that. It's only for food,
and there are restrictions there. It can't be used for alcohol,
it can't be used for cigarettes. I agree with those restrictions.
It can't even be used for toothpaste or diapers or
feminine hygiene products. I mean agree with that, but I
understand and some even of my friends who think of themselves.
(08:05):
Progressives want to demonize low income people. All they're doing
is buying soda with this. The most purchased product in
America would snap our bananas, and the shopping patterns of
people in Snap are fairly close to other low income
people who just can't often afford the healthiest food. You're
not allowed to buy prepared foods. You can't go to
a fast food restaurant and use snap. You can't buy
(08:28):
a rotisserie chicken, at least a hot rotisserie chicken. You
can buy a cold rotisserie chicken, but not a hot one,
even though you would have to spend more money as
a low income person to buy and then heat up,
you know, the cold chicken. And so again, it's really
about discriminating against poor people and really sending the message
(08:50):
they are somehow less worthy than everyone else. People haven't
focused on it nearly as much as they have. And
speaking Paul Ryan, you know, after his up one of
his parents died, he received Social Security Survivors benefits, essentially
a welfare payment. And Ben Carson, Trump's Housing secretary, who's
a big opponents of safety net programs, received food stamps
(09:13):
growing up. All these people who have amnesia about all
the help they got. And you know who doesn't want
a lifetime on snap? Snap recipients don't. Their dream isn't
a bigger, better Snap program. Their dream is having a
living wage job, so they don't need it. We're back,
(09:46):
So today I'm here with Joel Berg. Chill, Can you
give us a bit of history on hunger in this country?
The reason America has so much hunger and had so
much hunger even before this crisis, is that our political
system is fundamental, we broken. And there are some let's
say this isn't a political issue, this is the ultimate
political issue. America almost ended hunger entirely in the nineties
(10:10):
seventies because we had public policies that empowered unions to
create middle class jobs. Wages went up, and we had
an adequate government safety net to fill in the gaps
when that wasn't enough. And the reason hunger has been
skyrocketing over the last few decades is starting in the
Reagan era, we started rolling back the policies that worked,
(10:31):
rolling back living wage jobs, rolling back union protections, rolling
back the safety net. So by two thousand and eighteen
and theoretically the best economy in decades, the stock market
was skyrocketing through the roof. We had thirty seven million Americans,
including eleven million American children, living in homes that couldn't
(10:54):
afford enough food. And you know a lot of people
didn't want to hear it back into a thousand and eighteen,
but we said, oh my goodness, if in a good
economy we have tens of millions of Americans going hungry,
what's gonna happen when we had the next inevitable recession. Now,
even me with my chicken little mentality, there's the Dalli
show called me Mr. Frownie Pants. Even with my pessimism,
(11:17):
even I didn't suspect that the next downturn would be
this grave. So you had thirty seven million Americans who
are hungry. Before this, tens of millions of jobs went away.
Twenty nine million school meals a day, school lunches a
day that would have been provided. Half as many of
those school lunches a day that would have been school
breakfast that would have been provided went away. So twenty
(11:40):
nine million kids getting school meals no longer getting school
meals by and large, millions of kids in smaller kids
in daycare centers that we're getting meals at those daycare
centers no longer getting them, hundreds of thousands of seniors
getting meals at those senior centers no longer getting them.
And on top of that, we have a significant spike
(12:02):
in food prices. Just read that there's an average of
a six increase in food prices and for some items
and even higher spike. So everything that could go wrong
did wrong wrong. But most of this is not a
consequence of the fact that we have this horrible virus
that's certainly made this worse and was the precipitating spark.
(12:24):
But the reason we have such a crisis now, as
we had a pretty serious crisis before. There were two
things that really built the movement to end hunger in America.
Number one was a serious grassroots movement started by Doctor King,
the Poor People's Campaign, but continued after his death. A
lot of people have been taught that while King started
(12:46):
the Poor People's Campaign, it basically failed. He was assassinated
and that was that. That wasn't quite that led by
Reverend n Abernathy, who was really his co leader, and
much of the civil rights movement has really been washed
pun intended out of the history helped lead the Poor
People's Movement, and one of their top demands was the
creation of the modern nutrition assistant safety then, and that
(13:10):
is part of what generated this massive media coverage. Not
only did CBS, as you indicate, have a prime time
special for fifty minutes five zero minutes in prime time.
So n nineteen sixty nine there are a few dozen
network news stories on hunger and in America, you know,
Dr King said, what much does it profit a man
to be able to eat at integrated lunch counter if
(13:32):
he can't afford a hamburger? Dr King was pushing for
the expansion of programs like food stamps and and and
school breakfast. That's number one and number two. The media
didn't create this false equivalency, it said. The media then said,
the reason we have this problem is that government isn't
doing its job, and the Conservatives are opposing the expansion
(13:53):
of the government nutrition safety that and if we want
to be serious about ending hunger, only government has the
bill to to do that. And so really, I think
the only thing that's actually ever worked in all of
American social history is a grassroots movement that is really
fueled by the people most affected, but also convinces the
rest of the country, including using the media, that it's
(14:17):
in their self interest, in their moral interest, to do
something serious about this. And so Richard Nixon ran for
president basically denying hunger was a problem. My opponents are
making this up just to embarrass me. And within a
year Nixon was so moved by the politics of the
situation and the media of the situation. He was the
(14:37):
first president and only president to hold a White House
conference on hunger, and it resulted in very, very serious
things that laid down the predicate for the modern food
stand program. He created the Whip program, which helps pregnant
women and children under five. Nixon Krook and one of
America's greatest hunger fighters. The biggest advances were in the
(14:58):
late sixties and the Latin in the mid nineteen seventies.
So the biggest advance was nineteen seventy seven, when I said,
Dolan McGovern and then President Carter teamed up to create
what was really the modern food stamp program. Before that,
it was really a small discount coupon program, and if
you had literally no money in the bank, you couldn't
afford the discount coupons. And you've got no food, and
(15:20):
so we created this modern program. Who you know, anyone
who is really poor. You know, if you were your
legal residents of the United States, you could get these benefits.
And soon after that happened, people like Ronald Reagan started
demonizing the program and frankly, very racially biased ways. He
used the term young bucks on food stamps, which, by
(15:41):
anyone's account, was a clear attempt to imply this was young,
healthy African American men who are getting food stamps, when
in fact, throughout the program's existence, Uh, the largest number
of people getting food stamps and today the programs called snapped,
the largest number of people getting help are white. But
that's not what the right wanted to give the country
(16:03):
the impression of. And starting in the Reagan era, there
were billions of dollars cuts in and snap. A little
of that was restored under the beginning of the Clinton administration,
but then the Welfare Reform Bill of cut them some more. Uh,
you know, w had a mixed message on this. But
then you know, when Paul Ryan was in Congress, he
(16:25):
spent virtually his entire time as as Speaker and as
Budget Committee chair trying to slash these benefits and now
the Trump administration is continuing to do that as well.
The perhaps out of all the cruel things the Trump
administration to have done or tried to do, perhaps the
most amazing is that they're trying to say that if
(16:46):
you don't work, if you don't work twenty hours or
more outside the home, they don't count raising children as work,
at least for poor people. If you don't work twenty
hours or a week outside the home, and document that
you shouldn't be able to at government food, you shouldn't
be able to get government health care, you shouldn't be
able to get government housing. Never before, really have I
(17:06):
seen such a cruel and morally bankrupt budget. It dismantles
our nation's basic living standards, which Americans have turned to
for decades. This budget, and you know this, it will
push millions of people into poverty and over the edge.
(17:27):
I'd like to just ask you, how are people going
to eat when they need a temporary help in hand?
With the cut of a hundred and ninety million dollars
in food assistance, Then you add these onerous work requirements,
and then yet you cut one point three billion in
workforce training programs so people cannot be trained to retrain
(17:51):
for jobs. And so this was a crazy thing to
do in good times, and but now in bad times,
a federal judge put that rule on hold related to
food and say, you know, we're in this unemployment crisis.
That's sort of ridiculous to say you can't get food
if you're not working. And the Trump administration actually went
(18:13):
to court spent our tax dollarge to go to court
to appeal this. So in the height of the worst
economic collapse since the depression, they're still trying to deny
my food from the unemployed. This is this is is
if Ebernez or Scrooge had those nightmares, these ghosts came
to him, scared the dickens out of him, and then
he still without dickensing in dickens. So that's the long
(18:37):
story of of of of how uh these programs have
been demonized. The vast majority of people getting help from
these programs are working. They're just not earning enough money.
And rather than doing the obvious thing is rewarding work
by giving working people more food and by raising the
minimum wage. Uh, they want a race bait to convince
their base that somehow they shouldn't be too upset if
(19:00):
they're losing food because those other people are being shafted
even more. And the first day of the month, supermarkets
will tell you that people are lined up waiting for
the doors to open up in a supermarket so people
can come back in and shop because the first of
the month that's when the EBT cards are replenished. So
you know, it's it's a program that works. It's also
(19:22):
a program that has the least amount of fraud, wasted
abuse of any governmental program. And yet you'll hear people
talk constantly about the fraud and abuse. Now, the only
thing is is sometimes you're here incidence of people who
sell their benefits. Well, they're doing that because they're again
they're not they're not selling it to buy drugs. They're
selling it because they gotta buy diapers and things like
that that aren't included. But it's one of the lowest
(19:44):
to have any government program. Well, Miss Sullivan, let me
let me allow you to address this issue of fraud.
I think that this comes up repeatedly. Um, can you
comment on this, and uh, you know Mr Dolphson's comments
in that regard to here's the thing nobody is going
to deny that fraud or waste. Your abuse doesn't exist.
(20:05):
It is next to minimal. But why are we focusing
so much attention on that, especially when it is such
a small portion. What we need to be focused on
is families like mine who will be impacted. I am
not a fraud. I work. I do everything that I
can to to provide the best, just like everybody in
this room does. I want the best for my children,
(20:25):
and feeding them healthy food is the is the foundation
for them to build. That's what we need to be
focused on. I think the takes food from them. I
think there's a misconception that you want to be on
snap aid. What's what's your what's your response to that?
My response is I absolutely do not. Um we we have.
There's so much shame associated with that. You know, again,
(20:46):
tell us about that. Why is there shame associated with
because people people will assume that because we're accessing programs
that we are frauds, because there are people that are
out there spreading that type of misinformation. We become political
footballs in this in this game that our children, the
most vulnerable, the least able to stand up and defend themselves,
(21:08):
are essentially being told to do your part. You know,
pay pay your way. Listen, I work. I happen to
live in a state that is one of the most
expensive in the country. Our energy costs are among the highest.
It is if we struggle, and we are hardly the
only ones. We the people that are being impacted, need
to be in these spaces where these policies are being
(21:30):
discussed so that we can take back the narrative about ourselves.
We know who we are as people, We know our
value in our communities and to our families, and it's
time that we control that conversation and stop allowing people
like this gentleman over here to my left to control
that narrative about us. So this idea that people are
(22:01):
just you know, miss using the system and they are
on Snap forever, it's just it's just not it's not true.
And you know, the other thing that you hear is
when people are saying, well that people are a line
they're buying uh you know, you know, junk junk food
and are they're buying lobsters and and and expensive meats
with Snap, That's typically not the case. So there's family
(22:22):
A and family be. They're both poor, uh, they're both
getting uh Snap benefits and they're both working, and they
get what's called the earn's income tax credits, a tax
refunds for working poor people. Family A puts that in
the bank to say, for their kids college education. Family
B buys a big screen TV. Now I don't garage
(22:43):
your family be the big screen TV. That might be
the only entertainment they watch. Uh. Top Chef may also
be their babysitter. Wh and then then they're working. At
least the kids can learn to cook. I don't begrudge
them that. They probably don't have a They probably don't
have a movie theory are in their neighborhood. They if
they do, they can't afford it. They may not have
a safe public part. But so I don't beg graduate
(23:05):
family BE spending the money on a big screen TV.
But right now in many states, family BE who spent
the money would get to keep their snap benefits, and
family A who saved the money to be able to
send their kids through college would lose the benefits. And
whether you're a conservative, moderate, or progressive, that makes no
(23:25):
sense as public policy whatsoever. But a lot of this
isn't based on common sense. It's based on the notion
that we want to punish poor people, and anything that
seems too luxurious, Uh, you shouldn't be able to get SNAP,
would be too luxurious to to be able to have
in the bank and still get SNAP. If you think
(23:46):
that feeding people in this country that are hungry, if
you think it's important, then that's one question that I
would ask someone who's running for Congress or someone who's
running for a higher office, you know, if that's something
they would support, if that's something that you can are about.
You know, again, these are the these are the questions
that you need to ask people before they're elected into office,
and then you hold you hold their their feet to
(24:06):
the fire once they're there. And so if you listen
to this episode and you decide this is something you
really care about and for all the reasons that we're
talking about, then I think it is it's more than
fair to ask that question. If you if you have
access to someone before you vote for them, and ask
that question, go on on their websites and see if
they have anything about SNAP, are any other programs that
(24:28):
they think would help people who need Now the bill
that's being considered by the House of Representatives and May
of this year was saying that we should waive those
requirements during the pandemic. Will see if that happens. The
other restriction is at most places in most parts of
the United States, as you know, Tom, you cannot use
Snap at restaurants. Now, not every restaurant in every neighborhood
(24:50):
would be a good candidate to accept SNAP, but many
would be. So there's a very small pilot project that
only a few states have that only allow a few
parts of those states, only a few populations, people with disabilities,
of senior citizens, and homeless people to use Snap in
certain limited restaurants. I do think that should be expanded.
(25:11):
And as you've been leading the way to have broader
really payments to the restaurant industry to keep workers employed
and and to make sure that you can pay your
your suppliers and rent and all those other things, I
think that makes sense. And so allowing restaurants to accept
Snap is not the ends all or the be all
of of the problems besetting the restaurant industry, but it
(25:34):
surely would help, and it would surely help lowing from
people to have more options. I thought it was important
that if we were gonna discuss the issue of hunger
that Joe will be the perfect person to talk to it.
Thank you Tom for having me on, and and and
and thank you for all you and your family have
done to fight against Hunguer and to build uh more
(25:55):
just sustainable food systems. I want to thank our guests
and Kristen Castri and Laurie Silverbush at a place at
the table. Citizen Chef with Me Tom Colokio is a
production of I Heart Media. Christopher Hasiotis is our executive producer,
Jescelyn Shield is our researcher, and Gabrielle Collins is our
producer and editor. Now make sure to subscribe and leave
(26:16):
a rating on our show is always thanks for listening
and we'll catch you next week.
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