September 23, 2021 • 38 mins
We’re closing out the season with a look at “True Cost Accounting.” There is a growing movement to include “true cost accounting” or TCA when considering the cost of food -- which can be far more than what you pay in a supermarket.
Our guest today, food journalist and The Farm Report host Lisa Held is quite familiar with that report and cited it in her article for Civil Eats entitled “Can Accounting for the True Cost of Food Change the Global Food System?”
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Citizen Chef has a production of My Heart Radio. Hello everyone.
You know, I can't believe it's already fall. And with
the season's change, we're also wrapping up season two of
Citizen Chef. You know, it's been an exciting summer and
we've covered a lot of topics and whether it is
as foundational as how the USDA works are as current
(00:22):
and as exciting as the history making increase in SNAP funding,
as vital as recognized in the impact of black restaurant tourism.
Chefs are as totally cool as considering the future of
cannabis in our restaurants, and that obviously just scratched the surface.
But I didn't want to close out this season by
focusing again on the big picture. This year, we try
to make sure our conversations were wide reaching, and while
(00:44):
we always start with food, we definitely don't end there.
What we eat affix our health, affix our environment, affects
our economy and has a history to that affects that
we understand ourselves in our country. But today we're gonna
focus on the true cost of food now. Just as
an an example, UH farmers in Iowa UH use a
tons of night grates on their fields and UH those
(01:06):
night rates leach out into the Mississippi, they head downstream,
and they create a dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico.
And so what impact does the farmer in Iowa have
on fishing communities in the gulf. Does it have on
fish reproduction in the gulf and the effects of that
has on the overall economy. None of that is factored
into the price of corn in Iowa, the price of
soy in Iowa. So in fact, in July, the Rockefello
(01:30):
Foundation released the report that estimated that the true cost
of food in the United States to be more than
three trillion dollars as opposed to the one trillion dollars
that Americans spending. And that is because they factored in
things like the environmental UH impacts and health impacts of
our food habits, which cost us more in long term.
So we're closing out the season to look at true
(01:50):
cost accounting. You know, there's a growing movement to include
true cost accounting r r t c A with considering
the cost of food, which can be far more than
what you pay at the market. And our guest today
is quite familiar with that report and cited it in
her article for civilis entitled count Accounting for the True
Cost of Food Change the Global food System. So let
me introduce journalists Lisa Held who specializes in writing about
(02:14):
food and agriculture and even host her own podcast called
The Farm Report. So I'm thrilled to have Lisa because
she is an expert in the field, and she's also
truly skilled at breaking down topics as big as t
c A for us to understand. Lisa is gonna help
explain a bit more about what t c A is
and how it impacts our current food system and how
it could improve future systems in a way that is
(02:36):
equitable and more sustainable. So welcome Lisa, thanks for inviting me.
When I read the article that you wrote in Civil
e its Um, I was really intrigued because this is
something that obviously is someone who's involved in the food system,
not only participating the food system, producing food, eating food,
buying food from my home, but also very active in
(02:57):
policy work around the food system. Uh. And so this
is something that a lot of us have you know,
known for a while and talked about for a while. Um,
we all know that poor diet. Um. Can you know
worth I think spending somewhere in the neighborhood billion dollars
a year a year in healthcare costs associated with poor diet.
Um who pays for that? And so when I read
(03:20):
the article, I was like, finally, someone really you know,
putting um some accounting practices around us so we can
maybe figure out, you know, the impact, the actual financial
impact that the way we're producing food has not only
UM to our pockets, but also to the environment. Uh
and and to municipalities who are stuck holding the bill
(03:40):
to clean this up. I love that you brought up
this idea that it's not really anything new, right, Like
I talked to Lauren Baker, one of the editors of
this book True Cost Accounting, in my article about that fact,
because she was talking about the fact that she had
been asking these kinds of questions for her entire career,
you know, maybe for decades, but there hadn't been a
(04:01):
name for it or kind of a systemic way to
think about this. So, you know, at its most basic level,
true cost accounting involves measuring all the impacts of a
given food from production at the farm all the way
through to consumption UM. And those would be impacts on
people society, the environment, and you know we've been doing that.
(04:24):
But the idea here is we need an actual framework
in a way to calculate those costs um each one,
you know, come up with a number. Sometimes sometimes it's
more qualitative because it can be tricky, like when you
think about how do you calculate something like animal welfare
or equity. Sometimes it's it's tricky to come up with
(04:47):
a number, you know. So I'll just share with you
very quickly a little story right out in front of
my house. Here there is a little triangle, UM. And
the triangle is a collection area for water um as
heavy rains. And then that is a little area that
collects water before it goes into a pond. Now, this
little pond that we have here, UM, for the twenty
years that I've been here, usually around July, it there's
(05:09):
algae blooms. It turns green. It's kind of nasty. And
of course the reason this is happening is because there's
potato farms all around here. They're dumping tons of nitrates
on the on the farms. That runoff goes into the
pond algae bloom, right. And so the town engineer has
got a grant from the state to spend about fifty
you know, thousand dollars to take this collection area and
(05:30):
put a a trap in it to collect water. But
in doing that, you know, to cover his ass, he's
got to put a six foot fence around it and
cut down all the trees. And this is in front
of my house, and so and and so all the
neighbors we live around here. We got together to go
to a an emergency meeting of the parks department because
the parks department has jurisdiction over this UM and it
(05:53):
was very much like parks and recreation UM and UH.
And at one point it came up like what role
was the farmer play in this? And the answer was
Clean Water Act zero. He has no responsibility for cleaning
this and so UM I thought would be great to
get you and on the podcast to talk about this
idea of true cost accounting and who is going to
(06:14):
bear the cost of of of a lot of these
issues that that we're talking about. So so welcome aboard.
So in just in large terms of viewers can understand
what is true cost accounting. You know, the bigger idea
is trying to come up with these frameworks that can
allow us to make those calculations, and then the next
(06:35):
step is how and where do we apply those calculations,
you know, in order to either move policy or get
corporations that are externalizing some of their costs to internalize
them and actually pay. Like, for instance, these farms you're
talking about that are polluting the town, like you know,
maybe they should you know, be paying those costs of
(06:55):
cleaning it up or have to create a collection area
on their farm that will filter the water through you know,
bios whales and things like that before it goes into
this pond or this other collection area. Sure, right, yeah,
So give us an example. I think you start following
a tomato from Florida to Canada. Is that was getting
(07:18):
that right? That was an example that that Lauren had
of um of research she had done in the past um,
which is definitely um something that that kind of works.
I think a better example that that people might be
able to kind of relate to is if you think
about the cost of like a fast food value meal. Right,
it's super cheap. We right, Like that's one of the
(07:40):
amazing things that that's like the selling points, like you
can get this whole meal. It's really the price tag
is low, right, But so then you know, a true
cost accounting analysis would look at things like, all right,
what kind of pollution did the production of the meat cause? Right?
What we're workers paid on the farms, the slaughterhouse, in
(08:00):
the restaurant. Um. And then and not only what were
they paid, but if they were paid low wages, how
were they then, um accessing food? Were they getting snap
benefits that you know, that's a that's a cost, right?
What is in the cost of that happy meal? There
is there is a cost associated of the you know,
and yes it's it's dirt cheap, scratch your head, going,
(08:22):
how can they possibly do this? Um? And so? But
but there are some of those are captured in the
price of that, but obviously not not well, the wages
they are being paid are being captured in that price, right.
So so if there but if it workers being paid
eleven dollars an hour and then has to um access
snap benefits for example, to pay to feed their families,
(08:43):
which you know is necessary, um, then that cost is
not captured in there, which is a cost that you
know taxpayers ultimately pay. I'm glad, I'm glad you went there.
That was exactly where I was hoping you were going
with this because and again I wanted the listener to
really understand and um, the cost of of of cheap
(09:06):
wages or low wages. Yes, it's going to keep food
costs down, but somewhere along the line, someone's gonna have
to access some sort of benefits to actually feed their family.
And so who's paying for that? Taxpayers are paying for that,
and and so essentially what we're doing and this is
it's It's tricky though, because you don't want to raise
the price of that meal, especially at the happy meal.
(09:27):
People want low income are that with their with their
using to feed their family, and it's very inexpensive, and
so raising the price of that um would have adverse
effects to that community. But on the same hand, if
you paid those people more, they could probably afford the
few dollars extra for the happy meal. You know, That's
actually probably one of the biggest things people ask me
(09:48):
whenever I talk about like, um, you know, producing better food,
healthier food, um, you know, organic food, anything, it's always well,
what about people that can't afford it? Which is such
an important question, right, And there's a need for people
to simply get food on the table to feed their families.
And and I think you and I both both agree
on that for sure. Um, But you know, I think
(10:10):
that I think true class accounting can kind of help
us entangle this because the way that I think about
it is the price of the food if you think
about it in a big picture sense, like the price
of the food should be about what it costs to
produce that food, plus some sort of reasonable markup to
pay the people who are providing it, right, the restaurant,
the workers, the UM farmer. And then the flip the
(10:33):
other side, the question of who can afford that food
is about food access, and that's about low wages, access
to affordable healthcare, UM, systemic inequality, wealth gap. So there
are there are places that those that side of things
can be fixed, um, that that can then enable people
(10:56):
to access healthier food. And and also, like I mean,
the the labor question is crazy because I mean, I
think if you're if you're talking about a small restaurant,
this isn't true. And I think you know from operating
restaurants that labor costs are very real. Um, difficult thing
for restaurant owners to deal with, right and um, but
you know when we're talking about these big companies that
(11:18):
pay insanely low wages and produce really cheap food. You know, there,
I have this example that I would love to share.
So there was a report that came out. Ox Fan
put it out last fall um that they did an
analysis and they showed that Jeff Bezos could have personally
paid each of Amazon's eight dred and seventies six thousand
(11:40):
employees a one off a hundred and five thousand dollar
bonus with the wealthy accumulated between March and August alone,
and still be as wealthy as he was at the
beginning of the pandemic. So that's that's the kind of
money that exists within that system already. And so then
you know the same in the same month. A month later,
(12:03):
the federal government put out a report showing the Amazon
was among the top twenty five employers with workers enrolled
in SNAP in six out of nine states. So literally
taxpayers are making up the wages Amazon isn't paying while
celebrating how cheap the groceries are. Right, So they're in that. Like,
there's a lot of examples like that where it is
actually pretty straightforward and clear. And then there are other
(12:26):
examples where it's not and it is complicated and you
don't want right, and then he turns around it writes
an hundred million dollar check to Girl Central Kitchen to
make it all back right exactly. And it's like, well
that which is good and great, like they're doing amazing work.
But it's also like these things can be fixed at
the source. Um, you know. Yeah. And so we talked
(12:50):
about farmers and the farmers that are puty, but what
about large food companies that are that are just creating
really unhealthy food at really low prices, and are do
you see uh them contributing to healthcare costs somehow? Where
if you're going to produce food that's unhealthy, um, it's cheap. Uh,
but yet we we know it's it's it's harmful. Um
(13:14):
do we see? I mean how where where are you
on a soda tacks? Is that? Do you think that's
the way to actually deal with this some you know,
some unhealthy choices. Are you prefer a carrot? You know,
in in like a double bus program? Right? Um? Well,
I'm a journalist, so I'm not gonna like say what
I think should be done, but but I can, but
(13:36):
I can talk about the evidence that I that I
can and you know, it's a really it's a really
good question because you know that Rockefeller report that just
came out, UM, that showed the costs of the food
systemer about three trillion when you calculate in all the
additional costs instead of the one trillion that we pay.
The biggest external costs was healthcare? Was the health impacts? Right?
(14:00):
That was that was the biggest one, even above environmental
and social and um. And you know, one of the
questions that this this book on tc A gets into
is like, Okay, so we know that we can calculate
the health costs, and now who pays for it? And
how do you like? And I mean, I don't I
don't know the answer. I mean this, I think there's
(14:23):
been some reporting on the soda taxs UM in California
around like how effective it's been, and I don't know
off the top of my head, um, what what that
data looks like on a on a longer scale. In Mexico,
they's it seems to have lower the obesity rates UM.
And now it's a total tax for the whole country,
(14:43):
so it does it does seem to be working, you know,
but again, uh, soda is inexpensive and people who are
you know, struggling food on the table. It is an option.
And you know, you also have the issue with with
you know, parents who are low We come and they're
dealing with their families. They're telling their it's no all
day long, you know, no to the the computer game,
(15:05):
No to an iPhone, No to you know, a hundred
dollar pair sneakers, No, no, no, no, all the time.
And so do you say no to a cents you know,
half a gallon of soda? So at what point can
you say yes? And so it becomes an issue because
again it's becomes a tax on poor people. Right. Well,
A big focus is in this book is on using
(15:26):
these kinds of analyzes to change policy and so to
to shift the bigger system that you know rewards or
disincentivizes certain practices, like all the way back at the source,
so that it kind of starts to move big things
that then change these these prices all together and the
systems altogether. Stick around for more with Lisa held of Civilites. Hey,
(16:01):
I'm tim to click you and you're listening to citizens Chef.
Let's get back to my discussion with Lisa health disiblites.
What can true cost accounty tell us about food production
and climate change? So some of the analyzes that are
in the book and also the Rockefeller Report did include
greenhouse gas emissions as one of the externalities that can
(16:22):
be calculated in in this front within the framework. So
you know, I suppose if you were going to look
at a true cost accounting of um, you know, uh
commodity steak or burger versus um the equivalent amount of
protein from say beans, um, and you calculated in the
(16:46):
health impacts, the you know, production, the and then the
greenhouse gas emissions there um, the price of the meat
would be higher than you know, the price of right
would you capture? Wait? So if you're looking at true
cost accounting and how agriculture contributes to greenhouse gases, do
(17:08):
you do you do extrapolate out to the cost of storms?
Because if if, if our climate is warming up and
it's creating more powerful storms, more destructive storms. Um, do
you calculate the cost of the clean up less storms
in and the damage to homes and businesses? Yeah? I
mean do you go that far? I mean you could
that's I mean, this is sort of an emerging UM
(17:31):
field and discussion, and I think that you could make
an argument that that should be included. Right. You also,
like we haven't even talked about the flip side, which
is incorporating the benefits that that certain foods convey, right
and including that in the calculation. So you know, you
could have a farm that is UM doing something too,
(17:54):
for instance, UM hold water on that farm in the
in the event of a huge i'm at um event
like a big flood, or you know, and building resilience
so that they'll be able to produce food when we're
facing all this extreme weather. And so you could you
could calculate in you know, a benefit that they're providing
(18:14):
as well UM or you know, if they're building biodiversity
on the farm that supports pollinators and you know, we're
gonna need pollinators because they're a lot of them are threatened.
One of the challenges with True Cross the County is
that it's this big, complicated, like emerging academic discipline, and
like this book is, it's very wonky, so you know
(18:38):
it's hard to be like, yes, we can do it
this way, or no, we can't do we can do it,
we can't do it that way. UM. I think it's
it's all kind of being worked out as we sit here.
I also when I whenever the articles started thinking about
all the hog farms in North Carolina and the waste
pits that are just you know, creating communities that are
unlivable because at the stench. Property values have dropped and
(19:01):
you can't sell a house if you're if you're located
next to one of these hog farms. UM. And yet
that's certainly not calculating the cost of pork at the supermarket.
That's yeah, great example. And I think those environmental justice
UM impacts are definitely a big part of the discussion here.
And I mean, actually one crazy thing is in North Carolina,
(19:23):
where those hog farms are concentrated. UM. In the last
two years, there was a group of community residents that
sued the industry and and actually one and we're granted
UM some monetary compensation. And when you think about it,
like this just occurred to me right now, that court
was almost doing a form of true cost accounting, right
(19:44):
because they they looked at like the way these community
residents have been affected their whole lives with you know,
health health impacts from breathing in um ammonia and um,
the smells that ruin their quality of life, and like
you said, value of their homes was destroyed, and the
court said, you know you, there's actually a calculation we
(20:06):
can do to provide damages and like in a way,
that's actually kind of a form of true cost accounting.
But again, that did it change the practice? Are these
companies willing to just to sh out that money um
to keep the calls solo? Um? So they're just selling
more and more pork. And most of these companies aren't
even owned by US companies anymore, China, Old Smithfield. So
(20:27):
so we're taking other countries just just waste and decimating
our communities because profit, because we want to sell cheap work,
we want to export cheap A lot of that pork
goes to China too. Yeah, absolutely sure, it's not. It
doesn't it doesn't stay here. UM. Obviously, I don't. I
don't think anyone is suggesting that we should, um increase
(20:51):
prices by two percent whatever whatever it would be to compensate.
And so to what end are we doing is this
is a strict be for if there is a lawsuit
to calculate the costs. I mean, but where do you
see this going do you do we talk about curing
policy that could maybe stop some of this pollution at
the source. So so for instance, like regulate, like changing
(21:14):
regulatory frameworks to say like you you actually the e
p A right now is looking at changing UM regulations
for slaughterhouses to um if they had to figure out
ways to pay for their own pollution into rivers um
instead of just being able to let it go not
and then you know the e p A is cleaning
(21:36):
it up. That could be a way of internal like
making that company internalize that cost um. There are some
examples in the book in Denmark UM they have done
it in in a way where they use taxes an
interesting ways. So for instance, they tax the use of
UM certain pesticides, certain very harmful pesticides, and that is
(21:59):
a way to incent devise less pesticide use. And you
know it's it's big, big policy at the federal level.
And then there's oh, like for a good example I
think is like the Good Food Purchasing Program which started
in in the Los Angeles public school system and is
now in schools and other institutions around the country. And
they're saying, okay, we're going to evaluate when we decide
(22:21):
where we're sourcing our food from. It's not just going
to be what's the lowest costs item. We're gonna factor
in all these other things. At the end of the day,
they still have to consider the actual price tag. Right.
These are places using like you know, getting reimbursements from
for the federal government, between know are low, um, But
they are doing it, and they're they're considering all these
different factors when they make decisions about the food that
(22:44):
they source. UM. Yeah, I mean, I mean certainly you
could tie crop insurance to conservation. That's that's something that's
been you know, talked about for a while. Yeah, so
all these farm subsidies are actually you know, peg towards conservation. Also,
I imagine if they're higher costs associated with organic farming, um,
and so they're not externalizing a lot of those costs.
(23:05):
Those costs are are being captured in the price of
organic food. UM. Is there a way to create an
insurance program for those those um, especially crop producers versus
the subsidies that mostly go to corn and soy producers.
But you know, at a certain point, I guess it
does show you that a lot of what we're doing
is completely unsustainable at any price. Again, the way we're
(23:26):
producing corn and soy in in places like Iowa are
completely unsustainable. I mean, they're they're never going to clean
up that dead zone in in in the Gulf of Mexico.
And then what are what is the cost of that
to the fisheries? What is the cost of that to
just health? I mean there are places now in Tampa,
the altgeb booms are are just horrible where people can't
(23:48):
leave their homes, they can't go outside, they're getting respiratory illness.
Is uh, fisher are showing up dead. And so what
is that doing to the fisheries there? What is it
doing to our oceans? Who's gonna baar the cost to that? UM?
I don't see the farmers and I doing that. UM.
I don't know how much you have to charge them
to do that, but it would be unstainable for them
as well. UM. And so you know, you kind of
(24:08):
hope that at least through t c A, that the
government from a policy standpoint could start looking at some
of these practices and figuring out how um again either
created better incentives for better practices versus just fine people. UM.
But but you can also come up with with with
(24:29):
you know, clear rules around pollution and can can you know,
can you you at least find ways to divert um
again by using bioswales, by using other filtration methods to
filter the nitrates at the source versus waiting for them
to be discharged in two into the waters. Yeah, no, absolutely.
(24:50):
And you know you mentioned crop insurance and um thinking
about this this crop land in in places that are
emptying into the gulf. You could also about commodity programs
in the farm bill. And I actually recently saw somebody
showed me the actual calculation that happens to determine, um,
(25:10):
how much a farmer gets paid um in in you know,
forms of just a commodity payment just for growing, just
for having these acres of cotton or corn or soy.
And we're handing out all this money based on this
simple calculation that only considers what is the market price
of this crop right now and how many acres do
(25:31):
you have? And and you know, I mean it's it's
obviously far fetched, you know, if we know how policy works.
But what you know, what if that calculation included you know,
you you get less money if you're discharging nitrogen into
the golf, or you get more money if you implement
(25:52):
these controls to reduce the amount of nitrogen and phosphorus
that are are coming off your fields. Right Like, you
don't get you don't get a commodity payment if you
don't plant cover crops. There's there's all these you know,
sort of things that ways you could kind of go
about it. So how how can t c A inform
the consumer on making better choices in the marketplace? The
(26:12):
biggest thing is just kind of getting kind of adjusting
a consumer mindset. And I think like there's a really
there's a really great chapter in the book that Kathleen
Marrigan did that is just basically her talking about how
to use true cost accounting to think about the impacts
(26:34):
of um plant and cell based meats, these sort of
foe meats that are emerging compared to um actual meat.
And it's a really cool it's just an exercise. She
doesn't it's not academic like the others where she's like,
we're going to do this study and she's just like,
here's the questions that I would ask, you know, um,
what like what is the actual nutrition of this burger?
(26:56):
And you know, where, where are the ingredients going to
be grown own? And how are they going to be grown?
And and so I think like for a consumer, it's
it's like just familiarizing yourself with all of these questions
so that when you do make decisions about what you're
gonna buy or what you're gonna eat, you're able to
think about it in this systemic way and kind of
(27:18):
um consider all these variables rather than just you know, say, well,
I heard plant based food is better than meat, so
I'm gonna buy this impossible burger. Like It's it's not
that simple, unfortunately, And so I think just familiarizing yourself
with the kinds of things that the kinds of impacts
that do exist can help consumers make better choices. Stick
(27:41):
around for more with Lisa Held of Civil Wits. Hey,
I'm you, and you're listening to citizens, yet I'm talking
with journalists Lisa Held about reforming our food system using
true cost accounting or t c A. In hearing this conversation,
(28:05):
it's just it's dounting on me that a lot of
farms that are either organic, are a lot of farms
that are raising animals, mainly a lot of local farms
that are around me out here, I'm mountain on the
north Folk Long Island UM and wondering if they can
use t c A to actually show the consumer why
their cost of the food that you're buying in these
(28:26):
more farms is more. Absolutely, I think that's definitely something
that we're going to be seeing more and more of. UM.
Chipotle had this thing that they released recently that was
like UM an app where you could look at how
your order UM fared on environmental and social like metrics
where it was like, Okay, I ordered this being burrito
(28:48):
and it was like, you can see how many greenhouse
gas emissions you saved and what the UM social impact
was by choosing this ingredient. And so that's exactly what
they're doing. They're using the way that they source as
a marketing tool essentially, right, So this devetails right into
environmental social governors, you know e s G, which is
kind of a hot topic now. Investors are investing and
(29:10):
everything e s G are looking for an e s
G play. Major companies again like Chipotle and other major
food companies out there, are looking at how they could
be more responsible to the environment, to social causes and
actually you know, have better governance and UM, and I'm
imagining that you know that using using UM, you know,
(29:31):
t c A could could help those companies figure out
where best to make those investments that will have a
greater impact on the environment. Are are you know social
well being? Absolutely? Yeah? Um. Lauren the editor of the
book Way interviewed. She Um pointed to investment as one
of the most promising applications of t c A and
(29:52):
for that exact reason that E s G has already
kind of taken hold in the investment world, and so um,
applying a tc A framework is not really new, it's
just kind of an expansion of that E s G
framework that already exists. Yeah, you're going shopping. You're not
really paying attention to this. You're you're loading up the
(30:13):
grocery cart. What choices can you make now? I'm obviously
going to a farmer's market would be a better choice,
especially for local economies. Going to a small farm and
buying your chicken, all that's great, But most people shopping
a supermarket, what can they do in the supermarket or
do you think the supermarket then bears some responsibility to
at least have marketing materials around better choices that are
(30:35):
better for um, the environment and better for for for
social issues. Who who bears the responsibility to educate the consumer? Um?
That is a big question, UM journalists maybe, UM, you
know there's there's your next story there. Certainly, I certainly
(30:56):
feel the responsibility of educating very very strong strongly. UM.
It weighs on me all the time. But how responsible
do you feel? I feel extremely responsible. I would say
educating the public is is like maybe half and then
the other half is holding power to account. So UM,
(31:17):
that's a lot of a lot of what I do
is reporting on the behavior of um, some of these companies,
especially like the biggest meat backing companies and that have
a lot of power and and but then educating people
on is part of that, right, So it's it's kind
of a combination. But um, but yeah, I mean it's
supermarkets are tough. Like I I do think you know,
(31:38):
I have a lot of privilege and that I do
shop mostly at markets. I also have a really great
supermarket UM by me that has really great options, UM,
and not everybody has that. But I mean I think
like just shifting more to vegetables and greens and beans
(31:58):
and all of those foods that immediately can have such
a big impact because meats commodity meets impacts in terms
of all resources and also impacts on people, and they're
just so outsized compared to all of the plant based foods.
I do think that the consumer, what the consumer can
do is limited, Like by the time it gets they
(32:20):
get to the supermarket, it feels a little bit limited.
And I think like actually changing what is available in
the supermarket is a better approach. What could be interesting
is is if the usd A created a framework UH
and policy around labeling, whereas part of labeling your product,
(32:42):
you have to put the effect that this particular product has,
like what are the external costs that that are are
out there um based on this particular item. So if
it's a chicken producer, they're going to have to figure
out the true cost accounting on that chicken, and it
has to be part of the lingling so least the
consumer understands UM, you know where their choices are are.
(33:04):
You know the choice they're making are contributing to um uh.
You know, these companies being able to to externalize their costs,
you know, even going as far as looking at wages
and and and uh, people who are relying on snap
of working in particular meat packing companies are large food companies. Um.
I mean that could be an interesting way to go
about it, just to just have a framework to understand, um,
(33:26):
the contribution that that that you know, your purchases making. Yeah,
I would love to see a t c A accounting
on the true cost of of taking farage fish. And
the calculation is, you know, ten pounds of farage fish
creates one pound of meat. That just doesn't seem to
make sense to me at all. It is, but it's
(33:48):
still um, it's just a nonsense cultivate but uh um,
and what is the cost of that? What is the
cost of a fishery collapsing because of this? What is
the cost of the pollution of you know, these farm
drift nets that are causing on the environment around these farms.
And that would be an interesting, uh exercise to look at.
(34:09):
Hopefully somebody listening that is a researcher. Well we'll hurry
up and do that for us, right. UM. So different
subject now is as a food journalist, what else right
now are you looking at? What excites you? Do you
see anything now in in you know, tom Ville Sack's
second go around in the U s t A that
you think they're that we're getting right of such a
(34:31):
good question. I mean, the most interesting thing at the
USDA right now, I think is these UM what they're
doing with with meat packing. And you know, the Biden
administration just had this big announcement that I covered UM
in terms of how they're going to be tackling consolidation
UM within the meat packing industry and UM trying to
(34:55):
implement some reforms that are a long time coming to
shift the balance of power are in the system towards
farmers and workers and away from UM these big companies.
And honestly like that, even even the administration putting out
that executive order and showing the charts of how you know,
(35:16):
profits have risen and prices to farmers have not, and
that kind of stuff was so taboo to talk about,
what like for forever and so that was a little
I was. I was really surprised by that. And uh,
one of one of my food heroes, Shelley Pingery, has
been really focused on the licenses, the licenses that are
(35:36):
giving out by the U s d A to various
farmers and meat packing UM and how Uh, the largest
of the companies make sure that these licenses, uh, you know,
are aren't getting put out there at all. Um And
so it's really restricted for a small farmer where they
can only you know, maybe maybe they can kill the
animal on the farm, but they can't break it up
(35:57):
into pieces, so they can't sell them to market change.
They can only sell on their farmers or farmers markets.
Highly highly restrictive. And it's the big meat packing company
to the world that make sure that these licenses don't
get out there. And so she's been doing some great
work on that. Yeah. Yeah, Shelly Shelley is great. Interview
her many times. She always has um a lot of
of insights on these topics. And I mean, and the
(36:20):
flip side of what USCA is doing is they are
also putting money into building up regional meat infrastructure, which
you know is speaks to what you're talking about. You know,
there there's an issue with access to slaughterhouses if you
are a small farm raising animals on pasture, and and
there's all these rules about where you can sell. And
then there there is a movement um and energy around
(36:44):
tackling that and making it easier and building up more
resilient infrastructure for regional and smaller systems. That's that's I
think the most interesting thing coming out of usd A
and looking at some of the climate solutions that are
being proposed for the food system and whether or not
they are really effective and and if they come with
(37:05):
unintended consequences. UM. So, I think there's a lot in
that area that is going to be really important obviously
as we're facing this climate crisis um and things are
pretty urgent on that front at least. So listen. It's
been great having him um and and I. You know,
(37:27):
hopefully we can keep this communication going because you're welcome information.
You're working a lot of things that interest me. Thanks
for joining us today, and uh Um, thanks for the
work that you're doing. Thank you so much. I'll come
back anytime. Tc A or true cost accounting feels intuitives
to me, and I think we can all use a
more inclusive lens when it comes to assess and the
impact of our actions, and not just when it comes
(37:47):
to food. That being said, I hope this conversation, along
with the previous episodes, inspire you to think of the
larger picture when choosing your groceries. Are going out to dinner.
You know, we all have to eat. Whether our foods
and enrich our lives cause more harm is up to us,
and I have a lot of faith it will be
more of the former. I've learned so much the season,
and I hope you have to let us know what's
(38:08):
stuck with you if you have a chance, whether it
be on Twitter or hashtag. Citizen Chef are in a review?
What kind of world do you want to see? And
how can you help get us there? Thanks again to
journalists Lisa help for expertise and are excellent reporting on
all things food. Thanks to a Place to the Table,
and thanks to you for listening you. We hope you
enjoyed this season of Citizen Chef and you have a safe, happy,
and more importantly delicious autumn. Citizen Chef is executive cruised
(38:33):
by Christopher Hasciotas, pruced by Garbielle Collins, and researched by
Lillian Holman. Citizen Chef is the production of I Heart Radio.
For more podcasts like this, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple Podcaster, anywhere you get your favorite Jos
Citizen Chef has a production of My Heart Radio. Hello everyone.
You know, I can't believe it's already fall. And with
the season's change, we're also wrapping up season two of
Citizen Chef. You know, it's been an exciting summer and
we've covered a lot of topics and whether it is
as foundational as how the USDA works are as current
(00:22):
and as exciting as the history making increase in SNAP funding,
as vital as recognized in the impact of black restaurant tourism.
Chefs are as totally cool as considering the future of
cannabis in our restaurants, and that obviously just scratched the surface.
But I didn't want to close out this season by
focusing again on the big picture. This year, we try
to make sure our conversations were wide reaching, and while
(00:44):
we always start with food, we definitely don't end there.
What we eat affix our health, affix our environment, affects
our economy and has a history to that affects that
we understand ourselves in our country. But today we're gonna
focus on the true cost of food now. Just as
an an example, UH farmers in Iowa UH use a
tons of night grates on their fields and UH those
(01:06):
night rates leach out into the Mississippi, they head downstream,
and they create a dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico.
And so what impact does the farmer in Iowa have
on fishing communities in the gulf. Does it have on
fish reproduction in the gulf and the effects of that
has on the overall economy. None of that is factored
into the price of corn in Iowa, the price of
soy in Iowa. So in fact, in July, the Rockefello
(01:30):
Foundation released the report that estimated that the true cost
of food in the United States to be more than
three trillion dollars as opposed to the one trillion dollars
that Americans spending. And that is because they factored in
things like the environmental UH impacts and health impacts of
our food habits, which cost us more in long term.
So we're closing out the season to look at true
(01:50):
cost accounting. You know, there's a growing movement to include
true cost accounting r r t c A with considering
the cost of food, which can be far more than
what you pay at the market. And our guest today
is quite familiar with that report and cited it in
her article for civilis entitled count Accounting for the True
Cost of Food Change the Global food System. So let
me introduce journalists Lisa Held who specializes in writing about
(02:14):
food and agriculture and even host her own podcast called
The Farm Report. So I'm thrilled to have Lisa because
she is an expert in the field, and she's also
truly skilled at breaking down topics as big as t
c A for us to understand. Lisa is gonna help
explain a bit more about what t c A is
and how it impacts our current food system and how
it could improve future systems in a way that is
(02:36):
equitable and more sustainable. So welcome Lisa, thanks for inviting me.
When I read the article that you wrote in Civil
e its Um, I was really intrigued because this is
something that obviously is someone who's involved in the food system,
not only participating the food system, producing food, eating food,
buying food from my home, but also very active in
(02:57):
policy work around the food system. Uh. And so this
is something that a lot of us have you know,
known for a while and talked about for a while. Um,
we all know that poor diet. Um. Can you know
worth I think spending somewhere in the neighborhood billion dollars
a year a year in healthcare costs associated with poor diet.
Um who pays for that? And so when I read
(03:20):
the article, I was like, finally, someone really you know,
putting um some accounting practices around us so we can
maybe figure out, you know, the impact, the actual financial
impact that the way we're producing food has not only
UM to our pockets, but also to the environment. Uh
and and to municipalities who are stuck holding the bill
(03:40):
to clean this up. I love that you brought up
this idea that it's not really anything new, right, Like
I talked to Lauren Baker, one of the editors of
this book True Cost Accounting, in my article about that fact,
because she was talking about the fact that she had
been asking these kinds of questions for her entire career,
you know, maybe for decades, but there hadn't been a
(04:01):
name for it or kind of a systemic way to
think about this. So, you know, at its most basic level,
true cost accounting involves measuring all the impacts of a
given food from production at the farm all the way
through to consumption UM. And those would be impacts on
people society, the environment, and you know we've been doing that.
(04:24):
But the idea here is we need an actual framework
in a way to calculate those costs um each one,
you know, come up with a number. Sometimes sometimes it's
more qualitative because it can be tricky, like when you
think about how do you calculate something like animal welfare
or equity. Sometimes it's it's tricky to come up with
(04:47):
a number, you know. So I'll just share with you
very quickly a little story right out in front of
my house. Here there is a little triangle, UM. And
the triangle is a collection area for water um as
heavy rains. And then that is a little area that
collects water before it goes into a pond. Now, this
little pond that we have here, UM, for the twenty
years that I've been here, usually around July, it there's
(05:09):
algae blooms. It turns green. It's kind of nasty. And
of course the reason this is happening is because there's
potato farms all around here. They're dumping tons of nitrates
on the on the farms. That runoff goes into the
pond algae bloom, right. And so the town engineer has
got a grant from the state to spend about fifty
you know, thousand dollars to take this collection area and
(05:30):
put a a trap in it to collect water. But
in doing that, you know, to cover his ass, he's
got to put a six foot fence around it and
cut down all the trees. And this is in front
of my house, and so and and so all the
neighbors we live around here. We got together to go
to a an emergency meeting of the parks department because
the parks department has jurisdiction over this UM and it
(05:53):
was very much like parks and recreation UM and UH.
And at one point it came up like what role
was the farmer play in this? And the answer was
Clean Water Act zero. He has no responsibility for cleaning
this and so UM I thought would be great to
get you and on the podcast to talk about this
idea of true cost accounting and who is going to
(06:14):
bear the cost of of of a lot of these
issues that that we're talking about. So so welcome aboard.
So in just in large terms of viewers can understand
what is true cost accounting. You know, the bigger idea
is trying to come up with these frameworks that can
allow us to make those calculations, and then the next
(06:35):
step is how and where do we apply those calculations,
you know, in order to either move policy or get
corporations that are externalizing some of their costs to internalize
them and actually pay. Like, for instance, these farms you're
talking about that are polluting the town, like you know,
maybe they should you know, be paying those costs of
(06:55):
cleaning it up or have to create a collection area
on their farm that will filter the water through you know,
bios whales and things like that before it goes into
this pond or this other collection area. Sure, right, yeah,
So give us an example. I think you start following
a tomato from Florida to Canada. Is that was getting
(07:18):
that right? That was an example that that Lauren had
of um of research she had done in the past um,
which is definitely um something that that kind of works.
I think a better example that that people might be
able to kind of relate to is if you think
about the cost of like a fast food value meal. Right,
it's super cheap. We right, Like that's one of the
(07:40):
amazing things that that's like the selling points, like you
can get this whole meal. It's really the price tag
is low, right, But so then you know, a true
cost accounting analysis would look at things like, all right,
what kind of pollution did the production of the meat cause? Right?
What we're workers paid on the farms, the slaughterhouse, in
(08:00):
the restaurant. Um. And then and not only what were
they paid, but if they were paid low wages, how
were they then, um accessing food? Were they getting snap
benefits that you know, that's a that's a cost, right?
What is in the cost of that happy meal? There
is there is a cost associated of the you know,
and yes it's it's dirt cheap, scratch your head, going,
(08:22):
how can they possibly do this? Um? And so? But
but there are some of those are captured in the
price of that, but obviously not not well, the wages
they are being paid are being captured in that price, right.
So so if there but if it workers being paid
eleven dollars an hour and then has to um access
snap benefits for example, to pay to feed their families,
(08:43):
which you know is necessary, um, then that cost is
not captured in there, which is a cost that you
know taxpayers ultimately pay. I'm glad, I'm glad you went there.
That was exactly where I was hoping you were going
with this because and again I wanted the listener to
really understand and um, the cost of of of cheap
(09:06):
wages or low wages. Yes, it's going to keep food
costs down, but somewhere along the line, someone's gonna have
to access some sort of benefits to actually feed their family.
And so who's paying for that? Taxpayers are paying for that,
and and so essentially what we're doing and this is
it's It's tricky though, because you don't want to raise
the price of that meal, especially at the happy meal.
(09:27):
People want low income are that with their with their
using to feed their family, and it's very inexpensive, and
so raising the price of that um would have adverse
effects to that community. But on the same hand, if
you paid those people more, they could probably afford the
few dollars extra for the happy meal. You know, That's
actually probably one of the biggest things people ask me
(09:48):
whenever I talk about like, um, you know, producing better food,
healthier food, um, you know, organic food, anything, it's always well,
what about people that can't afford it? Which is such
an important question, right, And there's a need for people
to simply get food on the table to feed their families.
And and I think you and I both both agree
on that for sure. Um, But you know, I think
(10:10):
that I think true class accounting can kind of help
us entangle this because the way that I think about
it is the price of the food if you think
about it in a big picture sense, like the price
of the food should be about what it costs to
produce that food, plus some sort of reasonable markup to
pay the people who are providing it, right, the restaurant,
the workers, the UM farmer. And then the flip the
(10:33):
other side, the question of who can afford that food
is about food access, and that's about low wages, access
to affordable healthcare, UM, systemic inequality, wealth gap. So there
are there are places that those that side of things
can be fixed, um, that that can then enable people
(10:56):
to access healthier food. And and also, like I mean,
the the labor question is crazy because I mean, I
think if you're if you're talking about a small restaurant,
this isn't true. And I think you know from operating
restaurants that labor costs are very real. Um, difficult thing
for restaurant owners to deal with, right and um, but
you know when we're talking about these big companies that
(11:18):
pay insanely low wages and produce really cheap food. You know, there,
I have this example that I would love to share.
So there was a report that came out. Ox Fan
put it out last fall um that they did an
analysis and they showed that Jeff Bezos could have personally
paid each of Amazon's eight dred and seventies six thousand
(11:40):
employees a one off a hundred and five thousand dollar
bonus with the wealthy accumulated between March and August alone,
and still be as wealthy as he was at the
beginning of the pandemic. So that's that's the kind of
money that exists within that system already. And so then
you know the same in the same month. A month later,
(12:03):
the federal government put out a report showing the Amazon
was among the top twenty five employers with workers enrolled
in SNAP in six out of nine states. So literally
taxpayers are making up the wages Amazon isn't paying while
celebrating how cheap the groceries are. Right, So they're in that. Like,
there's a lot of examples like that where it is
actually pretty straightforward and clear. And then there are other
(12:26):
examples where it's not and it is complicated and you
don't want right, and then he turns around it writes
an hundred million dollar check to Girl Central Kitchen to
make it all back right exactly. And it's like, well
that which is good and great, like they're doing amazing work.
But it's also like these things can be fixed at
the source. Um, you know. Yeah. And so we talked
(12:50):
about farmers and the farmers that are puty, but what
about large food companies that are that are just creating
really unhealthy food at really low prices, and are do
you see uh them contributing to healthcare costs somehow? Where
if you're going to produce food that's unhealthy, um, it's cheap. Uh,
but yet we we know it's it's it's harmful. Um
(13:14):
do we see? I mean how where where are you
on a soda tacks? Is that? Do you think that's
the way to actually deal with this some you know,
some unhealthy choices. Are you prefer a carrot? You know,
in in like a double bus program? Right? Um? Well,
I'm a journalist, so I'm not gonna like say what
I think should be done, but but I can, but
(13:36):
I can talk about the evidence that I that I
can and you know, it's a really it's a really
good question because you know that Rockefeller report that just
came out, UM, that showed the costs of the food
systemer about three trillion when you calculate in all the
additional costs instead of the one trillion that we pay.
The biggest external costs was healthcare? Was the health impacts? Right?
(14:00):
That was that was the biggest one, even above environmental
and social and um. And you know, one of the
questions that this this book on tc A gets into
is like, Okay, so we know that we can calculate
the health costs, and now who pays for it? And
how do you like? And I mean, I don't I
don't know the answer. I mean this, I think there's
(14:23):
been some reporting on the soda taxs UM in California
around like how effective it's been, and I don't know
off the top of my head, um, what what that
data looks like on a on a longer scale. In Mexico,
they's it seems to have lower the obesity rates UM.
And now it's a total tax for the whole country,
(14:43):
so it does it does seem to be working, you know,
but again, uh, soda is inexpensive and people who are
you know, struggling food on the table. It is an option.
And you know, you also have the issue with with
you know, parents who are low We come and they're
dealing with their families. They're telling their it's no all
day long, you know, no to the the computer game,
(15:05):
No to an iPhone, No to you know, a hundred
dollar pair sneakers, No, no, no, no, all the time.
And so do you say no to a cents you know,
half a gallon of soda? So at what point can
you say yes? And so it becomes an issue because
again it's becomes a tax on poor people. Right. Well,
A big focus is in this book is on using
(15:26):
these kinds of analyzes to change policy and so to
to shift the bigger system that you know rewards or
disincentivizes certain practices, like all the way back at the source,
so that it kind of starts to move big things
that then change these these prices all together and the
systems altogether. Stick around for more with Lisa held of Civilites. Hey,
(16:01):
I'm tim to click you and you're listening to citizens Chef.
Let's get back to my discussion with Lisa health disiblites.
What can true cost accounty tell us about food production
and climate change? So some of the analyzes that are
in the book and also the Rockefeller Report did include
greenhouse gas emissions as one of the externalities that can
(16:22):
be calculated in in this front within the framework. So
you know, I suppose if you were going to look
at a true cost accounting of um, you know, uh
commodity steak or burger versus um the equivalent amount of
protein from say beans, um, and you calculated in the
(16:46):
health impacts, the you know, production, the and then the
greenhouse gas emissions there um, the price of the meat
would be higher than you know, the price of right
would you capture? Wait? So if you're looking at true
cost accounting and how agriculture contributes to greenhouse gases, do
(17:08):
you do you do extrapolate out to the cost of storms?
Because if if, if our climate is warming up and
it's creating more powerful storms, more destructive storms. Um, do
you calculate the cost of the clean up less storms
in and the damage to homes and businesses? Yeah? I
mean do you go that far? I mean you could
that's I mean, this is sort of an emerging UM
(17:31):
field and discussion, and I think that you could make
an argument that that should be included. Right. You also,
like we haven't even talked about the flip side, which
is incorporating the benefits that that certain foods convey, right
and including that in the calculation. So you know, you
could have a farm that is UM doing something too,
(17:54):
for instance, UM hold water on that farm in the
in the event of a huge i'm at um event
like a big flood, or you know, and building resilience
so that they'll be able to produce food when we're
facing all this extreme weather. And so you could you
could calculate in you know, a benefit that they're providing
(18:14):
as well UM or you know, if they're building biodiversity
on the farm that supports pollinators and you know, we're
gonna need pollinators because they're a lot of them are threatened.
One of the challenges with True Cross the County is
that it's this big, complicated, like emerging academic discipline, and
like this book is, it's very wonky, so you know
(18:38):
it's hard to be like, yes, we can do it
this way, or no, we can't do we can do it,
we can't do it that way. UM. I think it's
it's all kind of being worked out as we sit here.
I also when I whenever the articles started thinking about
all the hog farms in North Carolina and the waste
pits that are just you know, creating communities that are
unlivable because at the stench. Property values have dropped and
(19:01):
you can't sell a house if you're if you're located
next to one of these hog farms. UM. And yet
that's certainly not calculating the cost of pork at the supermarket.
That's yeah, great example. And I think those environmental justice
UM impacts are definitely a big part of the discussion here.
And I mean, actually one crazy thing is in North Carolina,
(19:23):
where those hog farms are concentrated. UM. In the last
two years, there was a group of community residents that
sued the industry and and actually one and we're granted
UM some monetary compensation. And when you think about it,
like this just occurred to me right now, that court
was almost doing a form of true cost accounting, right
(19:44):
because they they looked at like the way these community
residents have been affected their whole lives with you know,
health health impacts from breathing in um ammonia and um,
the smells that ruin their quality of life, and like
you said, value of their homes was destroyed, and the
court said, you know you, there's actually a calculation we
(20:06):
can do to provide damages and like in a way,
that's actually kind of a form of true cost accounting.
But again, that did it change the practice? Are these
companies willing to just to sh out that money um
to keep the calls solo? Um? So they're just selling
more and more pork. And most of these companies aren't
even owned by US companies anymore, China, Old Smithfield. So
(20:27):
so we're taking other countries just just waste and decimating
our communities because profit, because we want to sell cheap work,
we want to export cheap A lot of that pork
goes to China too. Yeah, absolutely sure, it's not. It
doesn't it doesn't stay here. UM. Obviously, I don't. I
don't think anyone is suggesting that we should, um increase
(20:51):
prices by two percent whatever whatever it would be to compensate.
And so to what end are we doing is this
is a strict be for if there is a lawsuit
to calculate the costs. I mean, but where do you
see this going do you do we talk about curing
policy that could maybe stop some of this pollution at
the source. So so for instance, like regulate, like changing
(21:14):
regulatory frameworks to say like you you actually the e
p A right now is looking at changing UM regulations
for slaughterhouses to um if they had to figure out
ways to pay for their own pollution into rivers um
instead of just being able to let it go not
and then you know the e p A is cleaning
(21:36):
it up. That could be a way of internal like
making that company internalize that cost um. There are some
examples in the book in Denmark UM they have done
it in in a way where they use taxes an
interesting ways. So for instance, they tax the use of
UM certain pesticides, certain very harmful pesticides, and that is
(21:59):
a way to incent devise less pesticide use. And you
know it's it's big, big policy at the federal level.
And then there's oh, like for a good example I
think is like the Good Food Purchasing Program which started
in in the Los Angeles public school system and is
now in schools and other institutions around the country. And
they're saying, okay, we're going to evaluate when we decide
(22:21):
where we're sourcing our food from. It's not just going
to be what's the lowest costs item. We're gonna factor
in all these other things. At the end of the day,
they still have to consider the actual price tag. Right.
These are places using like you know, getting reimbursements from
for the federal government, between know are low, um, But
they are doing it, and they're they're considering all these
different factors when they make decisions about the food that
(22:44):
they source. UM. Yeah, I mean, I mean certainly you
could tie crop insurance to conservation. That's that's something that's
been you know, talked about for a while. Yeah, so
all these farm subsidies are actually you know, peg towards conservation. Also,
I imagine if they're higher costs associated with organic farming, um,
and so they're not externalizing a lot of those costs.
(23:05):
Those costs are are being captured in the price of
organic food. UM. Is there a way to create an
insurance program for those those um, especially crop producers versus
the subsidies that mostly go to corn and soy producers.
But you know, at a certain point, I guess it
does show you that a lot of what we're doing
is completely unsustainable at any price. Again, the way we're
(23:26):
producing corn and soy in in places like Iowa are
completely unsustainable. I mean, they're they're never going to clean
up that dead zone in in in the Gulf of Mexico.
And then what are what is the cost of that
to the fisheries? What is the cost of that to
just health? I mean there are places now in Tampa,
the altgeb booms are are just horrible where people can't
(23:48):
leave their homes, they can't go outside, they're getting respiratory illness.
Is uh, fisher are showing up dead. And so what
is that doing to the fisheries there? What is it
doing to our oceans? Who's gonna baar the cost to that? UM?
I don't see the farmers and I doing that. UM.
I don't know how much you have to charge them
to do that, but it would be unstainable for them
as well. UM. And so you know, you kind of
(24:08):
hope that at least through t c A, that the
government from a policy standpoint could start looking at some
of these practices and figuring out how um again either
created better incentives for better practices versus just fine people. UM.
But but you can also come up with with with
(24:29):
you know, clear rules around pollution and can can you know,
can you you at least find ways to divert um
again by using bioswales, by using other filtration methods to
filter the nitrates at the source versus waiting for them
to be discharged in two into the waters. Yeah, no, absolutely.
(24:50):
And you know you mentioned crop insurance and um thinking
about this this crop land in in places that are
emptying into the gulf. You could also about commodity programs
in the farm bill. And I actually recently saw somebody
showed me the actual calculation that happens to determine, um,
(25:10):
how much a farmer gets paid um in in you know,
forms of just a commodity payment just for growing, just
for having these acres of cotton or corn or soy.
And we're handing out all this money based on this
simple calculation that only considers what is the market price
of this crop right now and how many acres do
(25:31):
you have? And and you know, I mean it's it's
obviously far fetched, you know, if we know how policy works.
But what you know, what if that calculation included you know,
you you get less money if you're discharging nitrogen into
the golf, or you get more money if you implement
(25:52):
these controls to reduce the amount of nitrogen and phosphorus
that are are coming off your fields. Right Like, you
don't get you don't get a commodity payment if you
don't plant cover crops. There's there's all these you know,
sort of things that ways you could kind of go
about it. So how how can t c A inform
the consumer on making better choices in the marketplace? The
(26:12):
biggest thing is just kind of getting kind of adjusting
a consumer mindset. And I think like there's a really
there's a really great chapter in the book that Kathleen
Marrigan did that is just basically her talking about how
to use true cost accounting to think about the impacts
(26:34):
of um plant and cell based meats, these sort of
foe meats that are emerging compared to um actual meat.
And it's a really cool it's just an exercise. She
doesn't it's not academic like the others where she's like,
we're going to do this study and she's just like,
here's the questions that I would ask, you know, um,
what like what is the actual nutrition of this burger?
(26:56):
And you know, where, where are the ingredients going to
be grown own? And how are they going to be grown?
And and so I think like for a consumer, it's
it's like just familiarizing yourself with all of these questions
so that when you do make decisions about what you're
gonna buy or what you're gonna eat, you're able to
think about it in this systemic way and kind of
(27:18):
um consider all these variables rather than just you know, say, well,
I heard plant based food is better than meat, so
I'm gonna buy this impossible burger. Like It's it's not
that simple, unfortunately, And so I think just familiarizing yourself
with the kinds of things that the kinds of impacts
that do exist can help consumers make better choices. Stick
(27:41):
around for more with Lisa Held of Civil Wits. Hey,
I'm you, and you're listening to citizens, yet I'm talking
with journalists Lisa Held about reforming our food system using
true cost accounting or t c A. In hearing this conversation,
(28:05):
it's just it's dounting on me that a lot of
farms that are either organic, are a lot of farms
that are raising animals, mainly a lot of local farms
that are around me out here, I'm mountain on the
north Folk Long Island UM and wondering if they can
use t c A to actually show the consumer why
their cost of the food that you're buying in these
(28:26):
more farms is more. Absolutely, I think that's definitely something
that we're going to be seeing more and more of. UM.
Chipotle had this thing that they released recently that was
like UM an app where you could look at how
your order UM fared on environmental and social like metrics
where it was like, Okay, I ordered this being burrito
(28:48):
and it was like, you can see how many greenhouse
gas emissions you saved and what the UM social impact
was by choosing this ingredient. And so that's exactly what
they're doing. They're using the way that they source as
a marketing tool essentially, right, So this devetails right into
environmental social governors, you know e s G, which is
kind of a hot topic now. Investors are investing and
(29:10):
everything e s G are looking for an e s
G play. Major companies again like Chipotle and other major
food companies out there, are looking at how they could
be more responsible to the environment, to social causes and
actually you know, have better governance and UM, and I'm
imagining that you know that using using UM, you know,
(29:31):
t c A could could help those companies figure out
where best to make those investments that will have a
greater impact on the environment. Are are you know social
well being? Absolutely? Yeah? Um. Lauren the editor of the
book Way interviewed. She Um pointed to investment as one
of the most promising applications of t c A and
(29:52):
for that exact reason that E s G has already
kind of taken hold in the investment world, and so um,
applying a tc A framework is not really new, it's
just kind of an expansion of that E s G
framework that already exists. Yeah, you're going shopping. You're not
really paying attention to this. You're you're loading up the
(30:13):
grocery cart. What choices can you make now? I'm obviously
going to a farmer's market would be a better choice,
especially for local economies. Going to a small farm and
buying your chicken, all that's great, But most people shopping
a supermarket, what can they do in the supermarket or
do you think the supermarket then bears some responsibility to
at least have marketing materials around better choices that are
(30:35):
better for um, the environment and better for for for
social issues. Who who bears the responsibility to educate the consumer? Um?
That is a big question, UM journalists maybe, UM, you
know there's there's your next story there. Certainly, I certainly
(30:56):
feel the responsibility of educating very very strong strongly. UM.
It weighs on me all the time. But how responsible
do you feel? I feel extremely responsible. I would say
educating the public is is like maybe half and then
the other half is holding power to account. So UM,
(31:17):
that's a lot of a lot of what I do
is reporting on the behavior of um, some of these companies,
especially like the biggest meat backing companies and that have
a lot of power and and but then educating people
on is part of that, right, So it's it's kind
of a combination. But um, but yeah, I mean it's
supermarkets are tough. Like I I do think you know,
(31:38):
I have a lot of privilege and that I do
shop mostly at markets. I also have a really great
supermarket UM by me that has really great options, UM,
and not everybody has that. But I mean I think
like just shifting more to vegetables and greens and beans
(31:58):
and all of those foods that immediately can have such
a big impact because meats commodity meets impacts in terms
of all resources and also impacts on people, and they're
just so outsized compared to all of the plant based foods.
I do think that the consumer, what the consumer can
do is limited, Like by the time it gets they
(32:20):
get to the supermarket, it feels a little bit limited.
And I think like actually changing what is available in
the supermarket is a better approach. What could be interesting
is is if the usd A created a framework UH
and policy around labeling, whereas part of labeling your product,
(32:42):
you have to put the effect that this particular product has,
like what are the external costs that that are are
out there um based on this particular item. So if
it's a chicken producer, they're going to have to figure
out the true cost accounting on that chicken, and it
has to be part of the lingling so least the
consumer understands UM, you know where their choices are are.
(33:04):
You know the choice they're making are contributing to um uh.
You know, these companies being able to to externalize their costs,
you know, even going as far as looking at wages
and and and uh, people who are relying on snap
of working in particular meat packing companies are large food companies. Um.
I mean that could be an interesting way to go
about it, just to just have a framework to understand, um,
(33:26):
the contribution that that that you know, your purchases making. Yeah,
I would love to see a t c A accounting
on the true cost of of taking farage fish. And
the calculation is, you know, ten pounds of farage fish
creates one pound of meat. That just doesn't seem to
make sense to me at all. It is, but it's
(33:48):
still um, it's just a nonsense cultivate but uh um,
and what is the cost of that? What is the
cost of a fishery collapsing because of this? What is
the cost of the pollution of you know, these farm
drift nets that are causing on the environment around these farms.
And that would be an interesting, uh exercise to look at.
(34:09):
Hopefully somebody listening that is a researcher. Well we'll hurry
up and do that for us, right. UM. So different
subject now is as a food journalist, what else right
now are you looking at? What excites you? Do you
see anything now in in you know, tom Ville Sack's
second go around in the U s t A that
you think they're that we're getting right of such a
(34:31):
good question. I mean, the most interesting thing at the
USDA right now, I think is these UM what they're
doing with with meat packing. And you know, the Biden
administration just had this big announcement that I covered UM
in terms of how they're going to be tackling consolidation
UM within the meat packing industry and UM trying to
(34:55):
implement some reforms that are a long time coming to
shift the balance of power are in the system towards
farmers and workers and away from UM these big companies.
And honestly like that, even even the administration putting out
that executive order and showing the charts of how you know,
(35:16):
profits have risen and prices to farmers have not, and
that kind of stuff was so taboo to talk about,
what like for forever and so that was a little
I was. I was really surprised by that. And uh,
one of one of my food heroes, Shelley Pingery, has
been really focused on the licenses, the licenses that are
(35:36):
giving out by the U s d A to various
farmers and meat packing UM and how Uh, the largest
of the companies make sure that these licenses, uh, you know,
are aren't getting put out there at all. Um And
so it's really restricted for a small farmer where they
can only you know, maybe maybe they can kill the
animal on the farm, but they can't break it up
(35:57):
into pieces, so they can't sell them to market change.
They can only sell on their farmers or farmers markets.
Highly highly restrictive. And it's the big meat packing company
to the world that make sure that these licenses don't
get out there. And so she's been doing some great
work on that. Yeah. Yeah, Shelly Shelley is great. Interview
her many times. She always has um a lot of
of insights on these topics. And I mean, and the
(36:20):
flip side of what USCA is doing is they are
also putting money into building up regional meat infrastructure, which
you know is speaks to what you're talking about. You know,
there there's an issue with access to slaughterhouses if you
are a small farm raising animals on pasture, and and
there's all these rules about where you can sell. And
then there there is a movement um and energy around
(36:44):
tackling that and making it easier and building up more
resilient infrastructure for regional and smaller systems. That's that's I
think the most interesting thing coming out of usd A
and looking at some of the climate solutions that are
being proposed for the food system and whether or not
they are really effective and and if they come with
(37:05):
unintended consequences. UM. So, I think there's a lot in
that area that is going to be really important obviously
as we're facing this climate crisis um and things are
pretty urgent on that front at least. So listen. It's
been great having him um and and I. You know,
(37:27):
hopefully we can keep this communication going because you're welcome information.
You're working a lot of things that interest me. Thanks
for joining us today, and uh Um, thanks for the
work that you're doing. Thank you so much. I'll come
back anytime. Tc A or true cost accounting feels intuitives
to me, and I think we can all use a
more inclusive lens when it comes to assess and the
impact of our actions, and not just when it comes
(37:47):
to food. That being said, I hope this conversation, along
with the previous episodes, inspire you to think of the
larger picture when choosing your groceries. Are going out to dinner.
You know, we all have to eat. Whether our foods
and enrich our lives cause more harm is up to us,
and I have a lot of faith it will be
more of the former. I've learned so much the season,
and I hope you have to let us know what's
(38:08):
stuck with you if you have a chance, whether it
be on Twitter or hashtag. Citizen Chef are in a review?
What kind of world do you want to see? And
how can you help get us there? Thanks again to
journalists Lisa help for expertise and are excellent reporting on
all things food. Thanks to a Place to the Table,
and thanks to you for listening you. We hope you
enjoyed this season of Citizen Chef and you have a safe, happy,
and more importantly delicious autumn. Citizen Chef is executive cruised
(38:33):
by Christopher Hasciotas, pruced by Garbielle Collins, and researched by
Lillian Holman. Citizen Chef is the production of I Heart Radio.
For more podcasts like this, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple Podcaster, anywhere you get your favorite Jos
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