July 29, 2021 • 30 mins
Tom talks with Hudson Valley Seed Company Co-Founder and Creative Director Ken Greene about heirlooms, seed sovereignty and how seeds reflect human history.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Citizen Chef is a production of I Heart Radio. So
you know it sounds like seeds can tell almost the
entire human story. Oh yeah, Hi, I'm Tom. Click you
and you're listening to Citizen Chef. Yeah, so my my
interesting seeds kind of happened around five or six years ago.
(00:21):
I actually started gardening, and um, obviously obviously go from gardening.
I have like like twenty or so raised beds five
by seven raised beds and kind of fell down that
rabbit hole and really got into it, and um started
looking at seed Catalogus. I used to joke around and
I started looking at seed catalog with the way I
looked at Playboy when I was fifteen. Um, it's just fascinating. Um,
(00:42):
the amount of breeds and then the stories behind all
these seeds. And this year were all talking about seeds. Seed. Yeah,
we're talking about the seed shed. Um. What does seed
shed do? So I'm Ken Green. I run a nonprofit
called seed Shed, and I'm the founder and creative director
of a seed company called Hutson Valley Seed Company. Seed
(01:05):
Shed focuses on seed justice issues and so we work
with communities, um that are facing challenges around their seed
and we also do seed literacy education UM and work
to improve UH seed culture UM. That is people's understanding
(01:27):
of seeds and the role of seeds in their lives.
So let's start there. I guess people don't have a
deep understanding of seed um. They don't understand I guess
what it means to them. And so someone someone listening
in today I would think like, well, why should I
care about seeds? How do I interact with seeds? And
what would you tell them? Well, you know, seeds are
this invisible part of our lives that UM, we don't
(01:49):
even think about day to day, but are affecting us
day to day. They're an essential and yet invisible part
of our everyday lives. UH. And when we think about
some of the bigger issues that we're facing globally, seeds
many times are at the root of that, whether that's
about how seeds are grown, how seeds are shared, how
(02:12):
seeds are commodified UM. And so that's part of my
work is how do we pull back that curtain and
get people to understand UM where they intersect with seeds.
You know, if people understood that four companies control about
six of the seed UM, that would probably be alarming
and if they are alarmed by that, why should they
(02:34):
be alarmed by that? Well, it's yeah, it's a really
interesting statistics. So there's a I'm not sure if we've
seen the graphic that Phil Howard from ms YOU created
that's called consolidation of seed resources, and so it shows
how over time there's been a consolidation in the industry
UM by fewer and fewer corporations controlling more and more
(02:55):
of the planet's commercial seed resources. So right now we
have three multinational corporations UM really in control of the
bulk of seed resources on the planet UM and they're
all pharmaceutical and biotech corporations. So that's concerning because you know,
they're not nutrition focused or food access focused UM or
(03:20):
thinking about you know, regional adaptation or climate change or
all of these issues that we're facing that are connected
to seeds and our ability as communities to feed ourselves.
They're focused on a very specific type of profit, which
is either bundling UM seeds and seed breeding with pharmaceutical
delivery or bundling seeds and seed breeding with chemical inputs UM.
(03:46):
So you know, for many of us, we think that's
not the right kind of folks to be controlling seeds
and seed access and food and food access. Right, and
we're talking about the seeds that we're talking about is corn,
soy uh, what else? I mean, We're not talking about
you know, someone growing carrots in their garden. Yeah, But
(04:06):
that's the thing. So that that graphic, the consolidation of
seed versus graphic. You know a lot of people look
at and look at that and feel really alarmed, and
there are reasons to feel really alarmed, But that graphic
doesn't show all of the amazing, inspiring, good work that's
happening within communities and small regional seed companies and seed
(04:27):
nonprofits and seed advocacy organizations and community seed initiatives. There's
this whole entire landscape of seed happening UM, which recognized
that we have this loss of genetic diversity and that
there's something we can actually do about it by working together.
And so more and more there's gardeners who are growing
(04:48):
things that are not attached to that map UM. But
it's still a very small percentage compared to the global
seed industry. Because I think this was a quarter true
to that good food comes from good seeds. Can you
can you explain that what is a good seed? Wow?
I mean that's a loaded question, and you know you're
(05:10):
going to get different answers from different folks. For me,
when I think about good seed, you have to think
about all the interactions and interconnections of that seed. So
where did that seed come from? Who grew it? How
has it grown? How was it shared? Um? Who gets
to tell that seed story? Is? Is it being told
(05:31):
by the community? Um? That represents the origins of that seed?
Or was that seed appropriated in some way at a
certain time? Are stolen at a certain time? Uh? And
we're only hearing part of the story. So to me,
a good seed is where you know, you know the story,
You have a respect and understanding of the origins of
(05:52):
that variety. UM. And that the the system that that
part that seed is part of. And what I mean
by that is you know how who grew it, how
it was grown, and how it was shared. That you
feel like all of the people involved in that chain
of sharing that seed hand to hand to hand to
hand until it gets to your garden, that you feel
good about all of those practices, um. And the values
(06:15):
of those folks match your values And it doesn't always
line up that well. You know, you do the best
you can. But you know, even when we're looking at
just you know, one piece of this, say organic, you
know that you want to have an organic garden, and
you know treating the earth a certain way, uh through
using organic practices is part of your values of of
(06:37):
how you want to garden. Why aren't you buying certified
organic seed? And people say, well, you know, I'm only
worried about organic because you know, for things I'm putting
in my body, things I'm eating. But of course organic
is really a practice. So if you're buying seeds that
aren't certified organic or used you know, grown using organic practices,
(06:59):
then you're actually supporting someone treating the earth in a
way that isn't aligned with your values. But we can
look at race, we can look at gender, we can
look at access, we can look at food justice, we
can look at social justice, we can look at environmental justice,
we can look at all of these different ways where
that act of putting the seed into the soil and
(07:20):
growing it involved many, many, many people, not just for
that particular seed. But you know, going back in history
and do all those values line up for you, And
it's hard to know sometimes there's not a lot of
transparency in the commercial seed industry. We'll be back with
(07:41):
more citizens Chef, take me through one of those stories.
I mean, is there a particular seed or particularly breeder,
uh that you want to highlight? You know, is there
a seed in your catalog from Hutla Valley Seed Company
that you can tell that story? I just love love
to hear its story about one particular seed, one that
(08:02):
excites you. Um, give me sell me that seed. Yeah. Well,
so there's so many different stories and different kinds of stories.
One that I've been sharing more is about auto Phile
flint corn. Okay, it's a I mean, the corn is
just gorgeous. The ears have this golden, rich, deep golden
(08:27):
glow to glow to them. It's not just that sort
of you think of like a yellow corn sort of
that pail. It's there's you can tell, there's something special
about it. And it makes the most amazing polenta, Like
I have never had better polenta than is made from
Auto Phile. And we carry that we being huts of
Valley Seed Company, we carry that in our catalog. Um,
(08:51):
and we have been telling the story of that seed
as it was past to us that it's an Italian
heirloom variety that was developed in Italy, specifically for polenta Uh.
It was brought over here and given to someone who
gave it to someone else who I happened to know
the farmer, and he gave it to us, and we've
(09:13):
been doing our own selections to make sure it stays
adapted to the Northeast. And we also have our own
particular feelings about what the colors should be, and what
the size should be, and what the texture should be
when it's when it's ground. So we've been telling that
story of this Italian heirloom. But then in my work
with the nonprofit, the story totally changed, and so I
(09:39):
was having a gathering. We work with the Aquasas Mohawk
community in northern New York, in the indigenous community up
near Canada, Yes, exactly. So we work with them, supporting
them and growing some of their uh indigenous varieties that
are disappearing. And they came down for an and we
(10:00):
were cleaning seed together, and I wanted to give them
a gift while they were here, and I gave them
some ears of the Auto phile A And I'm telling
them the story and my friend Rowan White, who's an
indigenous seakeeper who runs the Indigenous SeaKeepers Network, was there
and she looked at it and she said, this is
our corn. This is eight row flint corn. This is
(10:25):
the corn of my people. And so, you know, these
stories that are past us, you know what part of
that story are we telling and retelling? We can go
further back with these stories and really think, oh, yes,
of course corn came from here European Uh. Colonists took
(10:49):
many of those varieties back to Europe where they continued
to change and be adapted and be selected, and then
they came back with immigrants, um from those European communities.
But there's this longer story here of sharing seeds between cultures.
And so now you know, we had to go back
(11:11):
and say, okay, we want to tell the full story
of this variety and not just the latest story that
was past us. All right, Does this particular variety express
itself differently? Say in Italy? Are in in in New York? Uh?
Sorry I couldn't there a regionality too, is there? Does
this this particular seed express itself differently, say in Italy
(11:33):
versus uh, you know New York State? Uh, is there
a regionalities even though it's the same seed in the
same variety, does it does it? Does it express itself
differently in different regions? It does better or worse than
different regions? Yeah? Yeah, all varieties have some amount of
of ability to be resilient and adapt to different areas. Um.
(11:53):
But there's a varying degree. Corn happens to be very
widely adaptable. Um. But like I said, when we got
the corn um and started growing it, we saw things
that we thought we could improve by doing selections in
the field so that it would be more regionally adapted.
(12:14):
All right, So when the average person hears, you know, heirloom,
the word airloom, whether it's tomato or the other heirlooms,
what what what does that mean? Which? What should they
know about that word? Visa the particular variety of tomato
are are you know p or something like? Yeah? A
lot of misconception around that words. Yeah, and my my,
(12:37):
it's almost used as a marketing word now it doesn't
seem mean Yeah, it's changed so much over time, and
my feelings about the value of the word have changed.
When I first got involved in seeds, people like I
would say heirloom seed, and people would be like, what
does that mean? They had never heard something a plant
called an heirloom before. UM. And when I first started
(13:00):
using the term, what I really was trying to communicate
was that there's more value to a seed than just
its commodity value. You know, what, what am I going
to harvest? How much am I going to harvest from
this plant? And just like when we passed down objects
in a family from generation to generation, and that object
(13:23):
may have a lot of cultural or sentimental or nostalgic
uh and family history value to it, but not actually
be valuable, like if you try to sell it an
eBay kind of thing. Um, it's a way of saying
seeds are also passed down generation to generation, hand to
hand that way, and that there's more value than just
(13:45):
what is going to grow it. It comes with all
of the history and all of these stories. So you know,
it was a like a value, but it's really changed
over time, um, how people are using it and UM.
And also part of it for me was feeling that
all of these stories, and this is related to the
(14:07):
auto pheela, many of the stories that we're being told
about heirlooms were specifically European UH stories UH. And many
of the indigenous stories UM or diasporic stories of these
seeds were not being told because they didn't fit into
(14:29):
people's idea of this sort of romantic heirloom UM. And
so I don't use the term as much. The other
limitation of it is people started getting confused. You know,
some people think heirloom means organic, which you know, it
doesn't have anything to do with the growing practices. Um.
(14:49):
Some people just think of heirloom as like good um.
And not all heirlooms are are amazing. So some are
way better than anything else you can get. So it's
there's a limitation to it. And I also people started
using it almost as a way of freezing things in
(15:11):
time of saying like here's the history of this overcity,
let's preserve it. Um, Like what what actually preserves it?
Preserves diversity? I mean, if we only grew one tomato,
I never want to be boring as hell. But number two,
if if there was something that was that was particular
pest are bacteria that was affecting that one particular tomato,
(15:32):
we can lose tomato. Yeah, I mean I guess I
can be simplifying things obviously, but but how important is
that diversity in in in seeds? Yeah, I mean heirloom. Really,
that term, once it caught on, really did help people
think about genetic diversity and the importance of having lots
and lots of different varieties with different tastes and different
(15:52):
adaptations and different colors and different histories. It really helped
UM spur this whole movement around diversity. But we want
to continue to increase that diversity, not just like you know, oh,
this is all we have left, just like freeze everything
in time. There's so much work being done to increased diversity,
(16:15):
to create new varieties UM. And there's very ethical and
responsible ways to do that, and there's unethical and irresponsible
ways to do that UM. And so you know, I
like thinking about the heirlooms of tomorrow. What varieties are
we creating today that sixty hundred years from now someone
will be like, this is an heirloom variety that's worth
(16:38):
hanging on to um and tells the story, tell the
story of that, right, and the honey nuts, the honey
nut squash comes to mind, which is kind of a
new type squash. Yeah, if it is something, do I
have my do I have my my, Do I have
that right? It's it was a new a new breed
of squash that was produced by Michael ms Eric. Yeah,
(17:01):
so that's a yeah, yeah, that's a really that's a
story I've been working on for a little while now.
Um and again, like the auto phile a, people are
telling you know, the latest slice, most recent slice of
that story. Um. You know it's being popularized by the
(17:22):
use of celebrity and a specific breeder at Cornell. Just
to just give the background of Cellar being Dan Barber,
chef who was uh it is considered one of the
best restaurants in the world, and this is uh sort
of his mission was to look at the way uh
plant breeders were breeding for traits that weren't necessarily making
(17:44):
food delicious, but we're used for other reasons and so
that's that's UH. I just wanted a little background on that, right. Um.
When you talk about ethics, ethics in in uh creating
new hybrid what what are the ethics behind that or
where should they be? What are your ethics? Well, I
mean the honey nut is a good example of sort
(18:05):
of thinking about a certain part of ethics, um, which
is you know, who gets credit, who gets to take credit?
And looking at honey nut, you know, very close, you know,
not very far behind. Michael Mazourik's breeder at Cornell is
Molly John who started that whole breeding project which was
(18:25):
actually a participatory project, UM that involved a lot of people,
you know, creating that variety. And then if we look
behind that, we actually see that there's breeding lines from
indigenous communities, from Turkey, from the Sephardic people. Um. You know,
there's all these other stories that are not being told. UM.
(18:46):
And it's interesting, you know when we look at it
and the most recent story being told is um, you know,
from white men. UM, when there's women and people of
color and indigenous communities that are all part of that story.
And why isn't that being told? Um? But in terms
of hybrids, a lot of people want to set up this.
(19:10):
You know, open pollinated is good and hybrid is bad.
Open pollinated being a variety that if you know what
you're doing as a seed saver, you can grow it.
You can save seeds, you can plant them again and
it will grow true to type. It will grow the
same plant, the same fruit, the same taste, the same
days to maturity all of that, Whereas a hybrid is
(19:33):
something that was created using you know, very specifically bred
parent lines that are then crossed to create a first
generation offspring which has the specific traits that the breeder
was looking for. Uh, And if you save seeds from that,
it reverts back to random characteristics of the parent plant.
So you've taken away that kind of ability to have independence. Right,
(19:57):
So if you were if you were to save those
seeds as a farmer, as a garden shave those seeds
and plants on the following year, you're not going to
get the same right, the same food direction. So it
creates a dependence on the commercial seed source. But that
commercial seed source also put a lot of resources into
creating something that potentially is going to perform really well
for you on your farm. So it's not on average
(20:18):
on yeah, on average, how long does a breeder work
on that particular breed that hybrids on average? Yeah, it
sort of depends on what, you know, what part of
that process you want to stop the time clock on um,
but it can be a few years to a decade
(20:38):
or more um depending on the plant family and depending
on the traits that they're actually working on UM and
also the processes that they're using UM. Whether there's more
technologically drifven processes UM for creating that like being able
to map out the genetics and UM you know, pin
(21:00):
point um genes and processes to create traits, or if
you're doing it more through selection and growing large populations
and so it really depends on the process and what
tools you have access to and what traits you're trying
to change or improve. It's sort of like the concept
(21:26):
of seed sovereignty UM. I think we hear that thrown
around a lot. What what does what does that mean
to you? I mean, there's food sovereignty, this idea that
the people who produce food UM, who are toiling in
the fields should have more control over that that that
process have seed sovereignty work into that as well. Yeah,
(21:46):
so there's a whole bunch of terms that seed shed
the nonprofit that I run have we've been really trying
to dig into seed ethics, seed justice, and seed sovereignty.
There is no hard and fast definition, I would say
right now, what we're looking at and thinking about is
(22:12):
what do communities need to grow towards seed sovereignty? With
seed sovereignty being a goal of canna see can a
community actually manage its own seed source using the cultural
values of that community? UM? So that can look different
(22:35):
depending on what type of community that we're looking at,
but it would require setting up seeds systems within that community,
UM that give that community independence in what varieties are
they growing and saving seed from? What are the practices
that are being used to grow and save those seeds,
(22:56):
and what are the systems that are in place for
sharing those seeds within that community. It's fascinating, UM. I
guess before before we leave ums, the last question is
started out by asking this question why should people care um?
And how they how would they interact with this and so?
UM the average person whether they're shopping at a supermarket
(23:20):
are I mean you think about chefs that are writing menus,
what should they be focused on? Should they be focused
on the because I started thinking about this a lot recently.
Should we start talking about the variety of that character
that squash are? Are that p as opposed to just
well it's a leak? What what kind of leak is it?
And should should that be on menus? And and is
(23:40):
that a way to sort of get the idea across
that that it's it's the varieties are so much more
important than the actual you know, vegetal itself. Yeah, when
I so part of se Chaid, we do see literacy education,
and I've gone to restaurants and done he literacy education
(24:02):
in the restaurant with the chefs and the cooks and
the servers and everyone who works there to really talk
about where do seeds come from? What kind of choice
do you really have in terms of varieties, what do
those choices limit in terms of what you're able to
(24:23):
serve people? And what is the value of putting the
name of the variety on your menu instead of just broccoli?
Because there's so many different kinds of broccoli, and there
are differences between all of them, and there's different histories
and stories that come with them. So you're sharing that
story just as much as you're sharing the flavor. The
(24:44):
story is coming through that. So Yeah, my fantasy world
absolutely menus of the names of varieties on them uh
as just a regular practice, uh for sure. Um. And
I think that the other piece to me, that the
(25:06):
other part of your question to me, you know, why
should people care about seeds? And sometimes it's really hard
to just talk about it and get people to care.
When we do seed saving workshops or when I do
see literacy education, and I get people touching seeds and
looking at the seeds and having a sensory experience with
(25:27):
the seeds. Uh and you know, slowing down and taking
that time to be with seeds. Something really transformative happens
every time. And it's not something I can teach, it's
not something I can write about. It's really this relationship,
this moment of connecting with the seed as yourself and
(25:52):
all the stories that are embodied in you, your personally
history and your family history and your ancestors with this
tiny what looks like an inanimate object that's actually a
living organism sitting in your hand. And when people start
to make that connection that this little tiny thing is
(26:15):
alive and that we all come from seed savers. We
all come from ancestors who had their own varieties based
on where they were in the world, that they had
that relationship with that plant and save those seeds and
pass them on generation to generation. Doesn't matter who you are.
(26:36):
Your ancestors saved seeds, and you can start doing that
again or make decisions that support other people doing that again.
That moment is when people start to care. And so
the more we can get people touching seeds and being
able to have that direct relationship, uh, maybe that will
(26:58):
lead to menus with the names of righties on them eventually, UM,
and a whole lot of other wonderful transformative things. I'll
try to do my part. So you have all these
these art illustrations on your packets, your seed packets, can
you just describe one and why you're why you're doing this.
So if you go to Hudson Valley Seed dot com, uh,
(27:19):
and you click on the link that says art packs, Oh,
that's where that's what we call the seeds, that feature
of the art, and then you'll just see them because
the rest of the catalog, you know, just has the
images of the variety of photos of that. Right, why
don't you describe Let me let me let me pick one.
This is great. Who does the illustrations. So every one
(27:40):
of our packs that we call art packs with the
Hutson Valley Seed Company are they're created by a different artist.
So we have a call for art and artists apply
and then I play matchmaker and I think that artist
totally needs to meet that plant. This plant story or
something about this variety has a lot in common with
this artist in the way they create art and see
(28:01):
the world. Hell, come up. I tell the artists the
story of that seed. The artist interprets it through their art,
and then that gets put on this special kind of
oregonmy folding seed pack that we offer. That's fantastic. So
I'm looking at the um can you can you can
you walk us through that illustration? Yeah? So every plant
(28:22):
story is different, and some have like real deep, you know,
stories about history and you know, understanding of the world.
And uh, that one, the artist really was thinking about
the experience of being near the plant, So instead of
(28:43):
thinking about the history of it or where it came from,
it was really she wanted to capture this in the moment, uh, feeling,
and so she created this whole garden setting. What's happening
in the garden? UM when you're sitting near the and
you're you know how this very distinct smell to it.
It attracts hummingbirds. So you get to observe um the
(29:06):
natural world, um and invite the natural world into your garden.
It's a very relaxing plant in terms of the scent,
in terms of the tea that's made from it. Um.
And so I think that's what the artist was trying
to capture, is just that in the moment experience of
having that plant in your garden. H the visual there's
some wicker furniture and there's a little tea set up,
(29:29):
so it's like tea time and you have to sit
back and watch the garden. You know. My my histor
story had a whole box filled filled with the anisissup
And it was the first year I had bees, and
my honey tastes like it had a very very pronounced
its flavor. It was fantastic. And the following year I
didn't have as much hissip and I actually moved the
bees a little bit because they were in a in
(29:50):
a bed. Uh. Anyway, I had a move in the
sound of and I haven't only captured that again. Um,
but anyway, UM, kind of thanks a lot. This is
this has been a has the conversation. Yeah, thanks for chatting. Happy, Thanks,
happy to meet you. And I'm always game to talk
about anytime. You don't want to talk about seats some more.
You're all right, Thanks, okay, Thanks everyone. Citizen Chef is
(30:19):
executive produced by Chris Brass, Jodas, produced by Gabby Collins,
and it's always a special thanks to a place to
the table. Citizen Chef is a production of High Heart Radio.
For more podcasts like this, this I Heart Radio app,
Apple podcast, or wherever you get your favorite shows.
Citizen Chef is a production of I Heart Radio. So
you know it sounds like seeds can tell almost the
entire human story. Oh yeah, Hi, I'm Tom. Click you
and you're listening to Citizen Chef. Yeah, so my my
interesting seeds kind of happened around five or six years ago.
(00:21):
I actually started gardening, and um, obviously obviously go from gardening.
I have like like twenty or so raised beds five
by seven raised beds and kind of fell down that
rabbit hole and really got into it, and um started
looking at seed Catalogus. I used to joke around and
I started looking at seed catalog with the way I
looked at Playboy when I was fifteen. Um, it's just fascinating. Um,
(00:42):
the amount of breeds and then the stories behind all
these seeds. And this year were all talking about seeds. Seed. Yeah,
we're talking about the seed shed. Um. What does seed
shed do? So I'm Ken Green. I run a nonprofit
called seed Shed, and I'm the founder and creative director
of a seed company called Hutson Valley Seed Company. Seed
(01:05):
Shed focuses on seed justice issues and so we work
with communities, um that are facing challenges around their seed
and we also do seed literacy education UM and work
to improve UH seed culture UM. That is people's understanding
(01:27):
of seeds and the role of seeds in their lives.
So let's start there. I guess people don't have a
deep understanding of seed um. They don't understand I guess
what it means to them. And so someone someone listening
in today I would think like, well, why should I
care about seeds? How do I interact with seeds? And
what would you tell them? Well, you know, seeds are
this invisible part of our lives that UM, we don't
(01:49):
even think about day to day, but are affecting us
day to day. They're an essential and yet invisible part
of our everyday lives. UH. And when we think about
some of the bigger issues that we're facing globally, seeds
many times are at the root of that, whether that's
about how seeds are grown, how seeds are shared, how
(02:12):
seeds are commodified UM. And so that's part of my
work is how do we pull back that curtain and
get people to understand UM where they intersect with seeds.
You know, if people understood that four companies control about
six of the seed UM, that would probably be alarming
and if they are alarmed by that, why should they
(02:34):
be alarmed by that? Well, it's yeah, it's a really
interesting statistics. So there's a I'm not sure if we've
seen the graphic that Phil Howard from ms YOU created
that's called consolidation of seed resources, and so it shows
how over time there's been a consolidation in the industry
UM by fewer and fewer corporations controlling more and more
(02:55):
of the planet's commercial seed resources. So right now we
have three multinational corporations UM really in control of the
bulk of seed resources on the planet UM and they're
all pharmaceutical and biotech corporations. So that's concerning because you know,
they're not nutrition focused or food access focused UM or
(03:20):
thinking about you know, regional adaptation or climate change or
all of these issues that we're facing that are connected
to seeds and our ability as communities to feed ourselves.
They're focused on a very specific type of profit, which
is either bundling UM seeds and seed breeding with pharmaceutical
delivery or bundling seeds and seed breeding with chemical inputs UM.
(03:46):
So you know, for many of us, we think that's
not the right kind of folks to be controlling seeds
and seed access and food and food access. Right, and
we're talking about the seeds that we're talking about is corn,
soy uh, what else? I mean, We're not talking about
you know, someone growing carrots in their garden. Yeah, But
(04:06):
that's the thing. So that that graphic, the consolidation of
seed versus graphic. You know a lot of people look
at and look at that and feel really alarmed, and
there are reasons to feel really alarmed, But that graphic
doesn't show all of the amazing, inspiring, good work that's
happening within communities and small regional seed companies and seed
(04:27):
nonprofits and seed advocacy organizations and community seed initiatives. There's
this whole entire landscape of seed happening UM, which recognized
that we have this loss of genetic diversity and that
there's something we can actually do about it by working together.
And so more and more there's gardeners who are growing
(04:48):
things that are not attached to that map UM. But
it's still a very small percentage compared to the global
seed industry. Because I think this was a quarter true
to that good food comes from good seeds. Can you
can you explain that what is a good seed? Wow?
I mean that's a loaded question, and you know you're
(05:10):
going to get different answers from different folks. For me,
when I think about good seed, you have to think
about all the interactions and interconnections of that seed. So
where did that seed come from? Who grew it? How
has it grown? How was it shared? Um? Who gets
to tell that seed story? Is? Is it being told
(05:31):
by the community? Um? That represents the origins of that seed?
Or was that seed appropriated in some way at a
certain time? Are stolen at a certain time? Uh? And
we're only hearing part of the story. So to me,
a good seed is where you know, you know the story,
You have a respect and understanding of the origins of
(05:52):
that variety. UM. And that the the system that that
part that seed is part of. And what I mean
by that is you know how who grew it, how
it was grown, and how it was shared. That you
feel like all of the people involved in that chain
of sharing that seed hand to hand to hand to
hand until it gets to your garden, that you feel
good about all of those practices, um. And the values
(06:15):
of those folks match your values And it doesn't always
line up that well. You know, you do the best
you can. But you know, even when we're looking at
just you know, one piece of this, say organic, you
know that you want to have an organic garden, and
you know treating the earth a certain way, uh through
using organic practices is part of your values of of
(06:37):
how you want to garden. Why aren't you buying certified
organic seed? And people say, well, you know, I'm only
worried about organic because you know, for things I'm putting
in my body, things I'm eating. But of course organic
is really a practice. So if you're buying seeds that
aren't certified organic or used you know, grown using organic practices,
(06:59):
then you're actually supporting someone treating the earth in a
way that isn't aligned with your values. But we can
look at race, we can look at gender, we can
look at access, we can look at food justice, we
can look at social justice, we can look at environmental justice,
we can look at all of these different ways where
that act of putting the seed into the soil and
(07:20):
growing it involved many, many, many people, not just for
that particular seed. But you know, going back in history
and do all those values line up for you, And
it's hard to know sometimes there's not a lot of
transparency in the commercial seed industry. We'll be back with
(07:41):
more citizens Chef, take me through one of those stories.
I mean, is there a particular seed or particularly breeder,
uh that you want to highlight? You know, is there
a seed in your catalog from Hutla Valley Seed Company
that you can tell that story? I just love love
to hear its story about one particular seed, one that
(08:02):
excites you. Um, give me sell me that seed. Yeah. Well,
so there's so many different stories and different kinds of stories.
One that I've been sharing more is about auto Phile
flint corn. Okay, it's a I mean, the corn is
just gorgeous. The ears have this golden, rich, deep golden
(08:27):
glow to glow to them. It's not just that sort
of you think of like a yellow corn sort of
that pail. It's there's you can tell, there's something special
about it. And it makes the most amazing polenta, Like
I have never had better polenta than is made from
Auto Phile. And we carry that we being huts of
Valley Seed Company, we carry that in our catalog. Um,
(08:51):
and we have been telling the story of that seed
as it was past to us that it's an Italian
heirloom variety that was developed in Italy, specifically for polenta Uh.
It was brought over here and given to someone who
gave it to someone else who I happened to know
the farmer, and he gave it to us, and we've
(09:13):
been doing our own selections to make sure it stays
adapted to the Northeast. And we also have our own
particular feelings about what the colors should be, and what
the size should be, and what the texture should be
when it's when it's ground. So we've been telling that
story of this Italian heirloom. But then in my work
with the nonprofit, the story totally changed, and so I
(09:39):
was having a gathering. We work with the Aquasas Mohawk
community in northern New York, in the indigenous community up
near Canada, Yes, exactly. So we work with them, supporting
them and growing some of their uh indigenous varieties that
are disappearing. And they came down for an and we
(10:00):
were cleaning seed together, and I wanted to give them
a gift while they were here, and I gave them
some ears of the Auto phile A And I'm telling
them the story and my friend Rowan White, who's an
indigenous seakeeper who runs the Indigenous SeaKeepers Network, was there
and she looked at it and she said, this is
our corn. This is eight row flint corn. This is
(10:25):
the corn of my people. And so, you know, these
stories that are past us, you know what part of
that story are we telling and retelling? We can go
further back with these stories and really think, oh, yes,
of course corn came from here European Uh. Colonists took
(10:49):
many of those varieties back to Europe where they continued
to change and be adapted and be selected, and then
they came back with immigrants, um from those European communities.
But there's this longer story here of sharing seeds between cultures.
And so now you know, we had to go back
(11:11):
and say, okay, we want to tell the full story
of this variety and not just the latest story that
was past us. All right, Does this particular variety express
itself differently? Say in Italy? Are in in in New York? Uh?
Sorry I couldn't there a regionality too, is there? Does
this this particular seed express itself differently, say in Italy
(11:33):
versus uh, you know New York State? Uh, is there
a regionalities even though it's the same seed in the
same variety, does it does it? Does it express itself
differently in different regions? It does better or worse than
different regions? Yeah? Yeah, all varieties have some amount of
of ability to be resilient and adapt to different areas. Um.
(11:53):
But there's a varying degree. Corn happens to be very
widely adaptable. Um. But like I said, when we got
the corn um and started growing it, we saw things
that we thought we could improve by doing selections in
the field so that it would be more regionally adapted.
(12:14):
All right, So when the average person hears, you know, heirloom,
the word airloom, whether it's tomato or the other heirlooms,
what what what does that mean? Which? What should they
know about that word? Visa the particular variety of tomato
are are you know p or something like? Yeah? A
lot of misconception around that words. Yeah, and my my,
(12:37):
it's almost used as a marketing word now it doesn't
seem mean Yeah, it's changed so much over time, and
my feelings about the value of the word have changed.
When I first got involved in seeds, people like I
would say heirloom seed, and people would be like, what
does that mean? They had never heard something a plant
called an heirloom before. UM. And when I first started
(13:00):
using the term, what I really was trying to communicate
was that there's more value to a seed than just
its commodity value. You know, what, what am I going
to harvest? How much am I going to harvest from
this plant? And just like when we passed down objects
in a family from generation to generation, and that object
(13:23):
may have a lot of cultural or sentimental or nostalgic
uh and family history value to it, but not actually
be valuable, like if you try to sell it an
eBay kind of thing. Um, it's a way of saying
seeds are also passed down generation to generation, hand to
hand that way, and that there's more value than just
(13:45):
what is going to grow it. It comes with all
of the history and all of these stories. So you know,
it was a like a value, but it's really changed
over time, um, how people are using it and UM.
And also part of it for me was feeling that
all of these stories, and this is related to the
(14:07):
auto pheela, many of the stories that we're being told
about heirlooms were specifically European UH stories UH. And many
of the indigenous stories UM or diasporic stories of these
seeds were not being told because they didn't fit into
(14:29):
people's idea of this sort of romantic heirloom UM. And
so I don't use the term as much. The other
limitation of it is people started getting confused. You know,
some people think heirloom means organic, which you know, it
doesn't have anything to do with the growing practices. Um.
(14:49):
Some people just think of heirloom as like good um.
And not all heirlooms are are amazing. So some are
way better than anything else you can get. So it's
there's a limitation to it. And I also people started
using it almost as a way of freezing things in
(15:11):
time of saying like here's the history of this overcity,
let's preserve it. Um, Like what what actually preserves it?
Preserves diversity? I mean, if we only grew one tomato,
I never want to be boring as hell. But number two,
if if there was something that was that was particular
pest are bacteria that was affecting that one particular tomato,
(15:32):
we can lose tomato. Yeah, I mean I guess I
can be simplifying things obviously, but but how important is
that diversity in in in seeds? Yeah, I mean heirloom. Really,
that term, once it caught on, really did help people
think about genetic diversity and the importance of having lots
and lots of different varieties with different tastes and different
(15:52):
adaptations and different colors and different histories. It really helped
UM spur this whole movement around diversity. But we want
to continue to increase that diversity, not just like you know, oh,
this is all we have left, just like freeze everything
in time. There's so much work being done to increased diversity,
(16:15):
to create new varieties UM. And there's very ethical and
responsible ways to do that, and there's unethical and irresponsible
ways to do that UM. And so you know, I
like thinking about the heirlooms of tomorrow. What varieties are
we creating today that sixty hundred years from now someone
will be like, this is an heirloom variety that's worth
(16:38):
hanging on to um and tells the story, tell the
story of that, right, and the honey nuts, the honey
nut squash comes to mind, which is kind of a
new type squash. Yeah, if it is something, do I
have my do I have my my, Do I have
that right? It's it was a new a new breed
of squash that was produced by Michael ms Eric. Yeah,
(17:01):
so that's a yeah, yeah, that's a really that's a
story I've been working on for a little while now.
Um and again, like the auto phile a, people are
telling you know, the latest slice, most recent slice of
that story. Um. You know it's being popularized by the
(17:22):
use of celebrity and a specific breeder at Cornell. Just
to just give the background of Cellar being Dan Barber,
chef who was uh it is considered one of the
best restaurants in the world, and this is uh sort
of his mission was to look at the way uh
plant breeders were breeding for traits that weren't necessarily making
(17:44):
food delicious, but we're used for other reasons and so
that's that's UH. I just wanted a little background on that, right. Um.
When you talk about ethics, ethics in in uh creating
new hybrid what what are the ethics behind that or
where should they be? What are your ethics? Well, I
mean the honey nut is a good example of sort
(18:05):
of thinking about a certain part of ethics, um, which
is you know, who gets credit, who gets to take credit?
And looking at honey nut, you know, very close, you know,
not very far behind. Michael Mazourik's breeder at Cornell is
Molly John who started that whole breeding project which was
(18:25):
actually a participatory project, UM that involved a lot of people,
you know, creating that variety. And then if we look
behind that, we actually see that there's breeding lines from
indigenous communities, from Turkey, from the Sephardic people. Um. You know,
there's all these other stories that are not being told. UM.
(18:46):
And it's interesting, you know when we look at it
and the most recent story being told is um, you know,
from white men. UM, when there's women and people of
color and indigenous communities that are all part of that story.
And why isn't that being told? Um? But in terms
of hybrids, a lot of people want to set up this.
(19:10):
You know, open pollinated is good and hybrid is bad.
Open pollinated being a variety that if you know what
you're doing as a seed saver, you can grow it.
You can save seeds, you can plant them again and
it will grow true to type. It will grow the
same plant, the same fruit, the same taste, the same
days to maturity all of that, Whereas a hybrid is
(19:33):
something that was created using you know, very specifically bred
parent lines that are then crossed to create a first
generation offspring which has the specific traits that the breeder
was looking for. Uh, And if you save seeds from that,
it reverts back to random characteristics of the parent plant.
So you've taken away that kind of ability to have independence. Right,
(19:57):
So if you were if you were to save those
seeds as a farmer, as a garden shave those seeds
and plants on the following year, you're not going to
get the same right, the same food direction. So it
creates a dependence on the commercial seed source. But that
commercial seed source also put a lot of resources into
creating something that potentially is going to perform really well
for you on your farm. So it's not on average
(20:18):
on yeah, on average, how long does a breeder work
on that particular breed that hybrids on average? Yeah, it
sort of depends on what, you know, what part of
that process you want to stop the time clock on um,
but it can be a few years to a decade
(20:38):
or more um depending on the plant family and depending
on the traits that they're actually working on UM and
also the processes that they're using UM. Whether there's more
technologically drifven processes UM for creating that like being able
to map out the genetics and UM you know, pin
(21:00):
point um genes and processes to create traits, or if
you're doing it more through selection and growing large populations
and so it really depends on the process and what
tools you have access to and what traits you're trying
to change or improve. It's sort of like the concept
(21:26):
of seed sovereignty UM. I think we hear that thrown
around a lot. What what does what does that mean
to you? I mean, there's food sovereignty, this idea that
the people who produce food UM, who are toiling in
the fields should have more control over that that that
process have seed sovereignty work into that as well. Yeah,
(21:46):
so there's a whole bunch of terms that seed shed
the nonprofit that I run have we've been really trying
to dig into seed ethics, seed justice, and seed sovereignty.
There is no hard and fast definition, I would say
right now, what we're looking at and thinking about is
(22:12):
what do communities need to grow towards seed sovereignty? With
seed sovereignty being a goal of canna see can a
community actually manage its own seed source using the cultural
values of that community? UM? So that can look different
(22:35):
depending on what type of community that we're looking at,
but it would require setting up seeds systems within that community,
UM that give that community independence in what varieties are
they growing and saving seed from? What are the practices
that are being used to grow and save those seeds,
(22:56):
and what are the systems that are in place for
sharing those seeds within that community. It's fascinating, UM. I
guess before before we leave ums, the last question is
started out by asking this question why should people care um?
And how they how would they interact with this and so?
UM the average person whether they're shopping at a supermarket
(23:20):
are I mean you think about chefs that are writing menus,
what should they be focused on? Should they be focused
on the because I started thinking about this a lot recently.
Should we start talking about the variety of that character
that squash are? Are that p as opposed to just
well it's a leak? What what kind of leak is it?
And should should that be on menus? And and is
(23:40):
that a way to sort of get the idea across
that that it's it's the varieties are so much more
important than the actual you know, vegetal itself. Yeah, when
I so part of se Chaid, we do see literacy education,
and I've gone to restaurants and done he literacy education
(24:02):
in the restaurant with the chefs and the cooks and
the servers and everyone who works there to really talk
about where do seeds come from? What kind of choice
do you really have in terms of varieties, what do
those choices limit in terms of what you're able to
(24:23):
serve people? And what is the value of putting the
name of the variety on your menu instead of just broccoli?
Because there's so many different kinds of broccoli, and there
are differences between all of them, and there's different histories
and stories that come with them. So you're sharing that
story just as much as you're sharing the flavor. The
(24:44):
story is coming through that. So Yeah, my fantasy world
absolutely menus of the names of varieties on them uh
as just a regular practice, uh for sure. Um. And
I think that the other piece to me, that the
(25:06):
other part of your question to me, you know, why
should people care about seeds? And sometimes it's really hard
to just talk about it and get people to care.
When we do seed saving workshops or when I do
see literacy education, and I get people touching seeds and
looking at the seeds and having a sensory experience with
(25:27):
the seeds. Uh and you know, slowing down and taking
that time to be with seeds. Something really transformative happens
every time. And it's not something I can teach, it's
not something I can write about. It's really this relationship,
this moment of connecting with the seed as yourself and
(25:52):
all the stories that are embodied in you, your personally
history and your family history and your ancestors with this
tiny what looks like an inanimate object that's actually a
living organism sitting in your hand. And when people start
to make that connection that this little tiny thing is
(26:15):
alive and that we all come from seed savers. We
all come from ancestors who had their own varieties based
on where they were in the world, that they had
that relationship with that plant and save those seeds and
pass them on generation to generation. Doesn't matter who you are.
(26:36):
Your ancestors saved seeds, and you can start doing that
again or make decisions that support other people doing that again.
That moment is when people start to care. And so
the more we can get people touching seeds and being
able to have that direct relationship, uh, maybe that will
(26:58):
lead to menus with the names of righties on them eventually, UM,
and a whole lot of other wonderful transformative things. I'll
try to do my part. So you have all these
these art illustrations on your packets, your seed packets, can
you just describe one and why you're why you're doing this.
So if you go to Hudson Valley Seed dot com, uh,
(27:19):
and you click on the link that says art packs, Oh,
that's where that's what we call the seeds, that feature
of the art, and then you'll just see them because
the rest of the catalog, you know, just has the
images of the variety of photos of that. Right, why
don't you describe Let me let me let me pick one.
This is great. Who does the illustrations. So every one
(27:40):
of our packs that we call art packs with the
Hutson Valley Seed Company are they're created by a different artist.
So we have a call for art and artists apply
and then I play matchmaker and I think that artist
totally needs to meet that plant. This plant story or
something about this variety has a lot in common with
this artist in the way they create art and see
(28:01):
the world. Hell, come up. I tell the artists the
story of that seed. The artist interprets it through their art,
and then that gets put on this special kind of
oregonmy folding seed pack that we offer. That's fantastic. So
I'm looking at the um can you can you can
you walk us through that illustration? Yeah? So every plant
(28:22):
story is different, and some have like real deep, you know,
stories about history and you know, understanding of the world.
And uh, that one, the artist really was thinking about
the experience of being near the plant, So instead of
(28:43):
thinking about the history of it or where it came from,
it was really she wanted to capture this in the moment, uh, feeling,
and so she created this whole garden setting. What's happening
in the garden? UM when you're sitting near the and
you're you know how this very distinct smell to it.
It attracts hummingbirds. So you get to observe um the
(29:06):
natural world, um and invite the natural world into your garden.
It's a very relaxing plant in terms of the scent,
in terms of the tea that's made from it. Um.
And so I think that's what the artist was trying
to capture, is just that in the moment experience of
having that plant in your garden. H the visual there's
some wicker furniture and there's a little tea set up,
(29:29):
so it's like tea time and you have to sit
back and watch the garden. You know. My my histor
story had a whole box filled filled with the anisissup
And it was the first year I had bees, and
my honey tastes like it had a very very pronounced
its flavor. It was fantastic. And the following year I
didn't have as much hissip and I actually moved the
bees a little bit because they were in a in
(29:50):
a bed. Uh. Anyway, I had a move in the
sound of and I haven't only captured that again. Um,
but anyway, UM, kind of thanks a lot. This is
this has been a has the conversation. Yeah, thanks for chatting. Happy, Thanks,
happy to meet you. And I'm always game to talk
about anytime. You don't want to talk about seats some more.
You're all right, Thanks, okay, Thanks everyone. Citizen Chef is
(30:19):
executive produced by Chris Brass, Jodas, produced by Gabby Collins,
and it's always a special thanks to a place to
the table. Citizen Chef is a production of High Heart Radio.
For more podcasts like this, this I Heart Radio app,
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