March 18, 2023 • 24 mins
We were recently asked ‘What is Allyship and why is it important?’ This question sparked a stream of consciousness that we tried to capture in today’s episode. Often many folks consider themselves to be allies or are trying to learn and do more, but we break down our thoughts on what this means and just how far allyship can go!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of Civic Cicher. I am your host,
Rams's joh is H. I am q Ward.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And you are tuned into.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Indeed, you are got a great show lined up for
you today. We're going to be existing very much in
the abstract. We were asked a very important question from
a person that we look up to, and we started
to say the least a couple of people shout out
to Jan and Ali and they're working with us on
(00:32):
some really amazing things that come honest, that are in
the pipeline, so stay tuned for that. We were really
excited to announce that, but now is not the time. Anyway.
The long and short of it is, we were asked
a question which led to a pretty insightful conversation, and
that question was what does it mean to be an ally?
(00:56):
And I loved kind of where we went with it,
where our brains went, and how we kind of articulated
what that means. We're going to do our best to
share that with you today because our assumption is that
if you're listening to this show, or if you program
this show, or you download the podcast, whatever it is,
that to some degree you hope that the world can
(01:20):
be a better place for black and brown people, and
you are working to wonder or another to try to
manifest that. And so we're going to spend a good
amount of the show talking about ally Ship. We're also
going to spend some time talking about Rosewood for our Way,
Black History Fact, and a whole lot of other stuff,
a lot to stick around for. And I'm excited because
(01:43):
these are the sorts of topics where we get to
really rather than read the news and kind of give
you our thoughts and what we can do about it.
This is more about you who you are as a person,
and this is the episodes like these are the most meaningful. So,
like we always do it, this time, let's go ahead
and start off with some Ebony excellence. Provided that Ques
on board, we shall. So for this week's Ebony Excellence,
(02:07):
just know it is sponsored by Hip Hop Weekly Media,
and we are going to shout out or we're reading
from Black Enterprise Magazine. So we're going to shout out
the founders of black owned eyewear line who made history
signing a licensing deal with Nickelodeon. So I will read
meet Nancy Harris and Tracy Green, the founders of Loontel,
(02:30):
the first black women owned iwear company to have established
a partnership with Paramount and Nickelodeon. Their licensing deal allows
them to exclusively make fashion forward eyewear products for kids,
using popular characters like SpongeBob, SquarePants, Baby Shark, and Rugrats.
For their accomplishments in business, they were recently featured on
The Kelly Clarkson Show. Nancy comments quote, we are thrilled
(02:52):
to announce our three year partnership with Paramount. We are
proud to be the first African American women owned eyewear
company to have such a deal. Bontel is committed to
creating eyewear that celebrates the African diaspora. Tracy comments. Bontel
was founded to satisfy the demand for better fitting, vibrant,
luxury eyewear design and handcrafted to be homage to the African,
(03:15):
Caribbean and Latin diaspora. Now, I want to say something here.
Ebny Excellence is a part of the show that we
really love because a lot of times when we get
to this part of the show, we have to talk
about a lot of things that are happening in our
(03:36):
communities and our struggles, and that sort of stuff, and
it's important to remind you that we were not just
born to struggle. We were born to laugh and enjoy life,
and to be creative, and to fall in love, and
to raise our children and to cry tears of joy
and sadness and ebony. Excellence I think provides a very
important dynamic to the show. So I appreciate you letting
(03:58):
us get that off every single week. If somebody was
to come to you and say I would like to
be an ally, how does that look to you?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I think the first thing that's important is it not
being performative. There is a tendency to very comfortably agree
with your friends, even when you don't wholeheartedly even understand
what you're agreeing with. Why they're hurt, why they're offended,
Why it feels like impression. I had a friend ask
(04:36):
me in the time where we're dealing very publicly with
the White Lives Matter trademark. One of us said something
about it being triggering. And this is a white friend
of mine, and she was very very confused as the idea, like,
why is that triggering to you? Why does the term
white Lives matter trigger you? This is a person that
(05:00):
not just someone that I know cares about me, but
that cares about my kids, that has invested in my
well being and is somebody that I call family. But
she was really like taken aback and confused at the
idea that that term would be something triggering or hurtful
to me. So taking the time to understand the why,
I think sets you up to be in a better
(05:21):
position where you're representing something that you also believe in.
Not just parenting my beliefs because you like me, not
just parenting my beliefs because you think that it's kind,
but actually understanding the why behind it. So me having
to explain to her what Black lives Matter means, where
it came from, why that affirmation was even necessary to
(05:43):
a group of people whose entire history has been oppression, marginalization, kidnap, murder,
and having all of that reinforced full time by the
infrastructure of the society that they live in. So not
just personal people's personal hatred, not just one to one
(06:07):
person to person racism, but the entire infrastructure of the company,
from government to policing to policy to education, reinforcing all
of these things that an entire group of people have
had to go through for their entire existence on this continent. Right,
(06:28):
having a system continue to show you that your life,
your posterity, your happiness, your existence is worthless. Right, Black
Lives Matter is simply reaffirming that we deserve to exist.
(06:49):
That's not saying that we should thrive and be prosperous
and pursue happiness. No, we even take it that far.
Is it okay for us to just exist here? Because
we're seeing ourselves murdered on video and even stin even
in that In that instance, your immediate reaction is to
(07:12):
convince people why we deserved it.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Okay, So let me jump in here. I think I
was once to ask this question. Uh. It was an
early episode of Civic Cipbert believe or not. One of
my neighbors came up because I think we had a
guest cancel, and he and I were having a good conversation.
I was like, you know what, you want to come
to my show? And he came up. I think that
(07:35):
you were This was I don't even know, but this
was early in again, and he asked me the same question, well,
you know, what can we do to support black people?
And I think what he was asking is how can
we be allies. How what does that look like? How
what does that look like? And so I recognized that
(07:58):
it's important to find what it is and then explain
how it looks. So, in short, if I was going
to use my own language appealing to somebody, one individual,
not a group, but one person, and I was to say, hey, listen,
I need some allyship, and they were to ask what
(08:19):
does that mean, I would start by saying, basically, just
just hold me down. Trust me when I say that
this is what it is. Value my perspective. Listen to me.
Step out of your own way and challenge the boundaries
(08:41):
of what you think empathy is, because everybody in their
own mind thinks that they can see it from the
other side. So challenge those boundaries. In fact, the things
that you feel are nonsense. Question why you might feel
that way, and ask questions toward that end to gain
(09:05):
more understanding, right, and then you'll be moving with the
why instead of just with the performative part that you
mentioned about just going through the motions. There's a why.
There's some substance there underneath your allyship. But that's why
that conversation was so important. You and I spoke about
(09:25):
this on our show before the words white lives matter,
just like black lives matter, should not be controversial or
offensive in any way, because, of course white lives matter.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
But it's the why that term was even born that
I had to explain to her. So that's why I
had to paint such a vivid picture as to why
black lives matter even existed, so that when I came
back and said, yeah, white lives matter came just to
oppose what I just told you, just to say, no,
your lives don't matter. If they're not you don't they
(09:58):
don't have worth, you don't just to exist. And then
my white friend understood the why and felt as offended
as I did. And that was a much longer form
conversation than that. But after you get to the why again,
you said it, I'm saying it again. It's not performative
anymore understanding from the perspective of the people who are hurt,
(10:21):
of the people who are being marginalized, their why, because
in this instance it's not yours.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Let me add something else to I think that allyship requires.
If you're committed to growing and challenging your beliefs, you
have to also be committed to a long campaign of learning,
because what will happen is you will say, oh, I
(10:54):
want to support you. I think that this is a
good thing you're doing. I want to be I want
to be activated in a way, in a meaningful way
where I can support you toward whatever end you're pursuing.
And then when you're away from me and you get
around your friends again, they might get into your be like,
you know, those guys are only doing that because of this,
(11:15):
and you know they're always saying that or did you
see this poll? And blah blah blah, And then now
you're like lost in the sauce again and you kind
of lose a little bit of steam. So you have
to be committed to a long campaign and bear in
mind that there are going to be some challenges along
the way. There's a lot of we did a whole episode,
you remember that episode we did on how data gets
(11:40):
manipulated and used against us, And there's a lot of
people where they come across that, people who would be
allies or have been allies, or whatever the case is,
and they come across these things which are either half
truths or distortions or you know, distortions of the truths
or whatever. And because it's presented as complete and factual.
(12:04):
They and they receive it that way, and then they're like,
oh what am I doing? Man? Because you know, that's
that's that's a valid point. Even the Dilbert comic guy
him with that straw pole thing or the ras Musen
pole thing, we just talked about him saying, oh, black
people feel like, uh, what do you say it's okay
(12:25):
to be white? Yeah, that's la people exactly, And that's
not nearly the complete story. You know that there's there's
a weight to that statement that is particularly offensive and oppressive.
And our belief is that the response in that right
(12:46):
leaning rass Musen poll, which you know, uh, wasn't even
fully explained because there's at least three parts of every pole.
They only showed two, but even still it didn't color
in those lines. And it's no different from saying is
it okay to be white? And people's you know, having
an issue with that statement because it in and of
(13:08):
itself is a racist statement. I told you about the
group I'm Reddit I'm a part of, and the group
is titled It's Okay to Be White, and the group
is racist people, and we use this for fodder for
the show, right, it's similar to challenging what we talked
about as people. It is black power as a statement problematic.
(13:33):
Most folks Black folks would be like, no, not problematic
at all. I understand it. It means that, you know,
our community is galvanized around a cause of mission whatever.
And that's the same group of folks. Is white power problematic?
Everybody be like yeah, totally because that phrase, even though
it's just one word change, that phrase is rooted in
(13:53):
the oppression of black people and the meaning, the meaning
behind it is very different. So again, this is it
okay to be white, sure, but the meaning behind that
phrase is not just the language. It's there's a deeper,
more sinister component that is not reflected in Erasmussen poll.
And the dober guy is completely shot off his track.
(14:14):
And then the people that feel like, well, look look
at the poll numbers. I get why he's saying that.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
That data's presented that way for those people intentionally to
kind of light a match to their to their their
fuel if you will. But you spoke about committing to
like a long term journey of learning, challenging your own
implicit biases, You're going to hear stuff that's wrong. That
sounds like how you feel, and it'll make you want
to defend it. Right, So I told you, anytime I
(14:40):
speak about it, speak out about our former president, people
that I know reach out to me to defend him.
And I realized after the third or fourth person, Oh,
they're reaching out to defend themselves. I presented something that
they kind of agree with, or some part of what
he's saying or what he feels that they also feel.
(15:03):
I didn't say anything about his ideology. I just said
something about him essentially being a bad person. And by
this person reaching out to tell me all these great
things he's done, it's like, oh, they feel like I'm
attacking them. It's in those moments of discomfort where you
really have to do some work. Because of implicit biases
(15:23):
and because of unlived experience, there are going to be
some things like, my friend, you are not going to
understand why people feel that way. You and I learned
that we had so much to do and so much
room to grow and learn with regards to being allies
to women. This is Reverend Estella's son six sisters. You know, girl, dad,
(15:48):
Oh my god, did we have a lot to learn.
So we could have saw these things, these points of
views that we oh man, I might have kind of
thought like that and held onto that and stood opposed
to women where we had to just say flat out no,
you're wrong too.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
So I think you're nailing it right here. So I'm
glad you brought up the I'm assuming you're alluding to
the me too movement. Watch this. I mean, yes, that's it,
and that's what started the conversation.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
You're really talking about being allies to women in general.
We feel very short and doing our part.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Okay, So what does allyship mean? Ramses? Well, allyship means,
as I mentioned, I'm committed to the long term journey
with this group of people. That I'm not a part
(16:45):
of this group. I'm not a woman. But if they
say that's what they want, I follow their leadership. I
support in ways that they deem meaningful. Where I can
and where I can't, I challenge myself to try to
show up, make a sign, you know whatever. You know
(17:07):
what I'm saying. I'm always pushing myself to stand as
a brother to my sisters. That's a word that I
use that I mean, you know that, and that word
is a very special word to me because my dad
had twenty four other kids. So that's not something that
(17:29):
I take lightly. That's not something that I don't know
nothing about. I am a brother, the big brothers, a
little brothers, big sisters and little sisters. You know what
I'm saying. And they all caught his phone and it'll
be cool. So when I'm saying that, is like, Okay,
what is allyship? What are you trying to do? How
can I be the best brother to you possible? Will
you please instruct me? And then doing that and being
(17:52):
committed to the long journey and maybe even being committed
to the outcomes that whatever group we're talking about in
this case, women want. And where I can make small
changes I do. Where I can make big changes, I do,
And if I can't, I bear in mind, then maybe
(18:15):
this isn't my fight. I need to let my sisters
fight this one. I need to sit back. I don't
seek recognition, you know. And it's not a matter of
waiting to be called. It's an active So be at
the ready, but be at the ready to be called
to greater tasks. Be ready to be called to greater
(18:35):
tasks as well. So again I'm not entirely sure if
that fits neatly in a little like a definition thing.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Well, you know, if I have to expound, because you've
said a lot of what it means to me as well,
I'll just add to that. A lot of times we
let our lack of understanding cause us to take a
backseat and not participate at all.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
That's not my fight. I don't really understand that, that's
not it.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
So I'm gonna just cross my hands over here and
watch and observing is just as bad, you know what
I mean? Like, just observing passively and not actively working
to help resolve or help support that group that you're
not a part of, is just as bad. Don't be
a passivist be an ally, even while you're being educated,
(19:24):
even while you're trying to learn, be an ally, you
cannot let your ignorance paralyze you in a way that
you don't participate.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Do you want to hear something really cool? I just
made a connection. I want to see if it works.
All right, So we talk about white privilege, right, people
that enjoy white privilege are oftentimes in the best possible
position to be allies. Right. Sure, some people don't acknowledge it,
(19:57):
some people aren't aware of it. Whatever. But the fact
remains is that in the vast majority of circumstances, those
who enjoy white privilege are in the best possible positions
to have that title of ally right now, the parallel here,
and I know we can't make a lot of parallels
(20:17):
to other movements because this is kind of ours, but
one that's in recent memory that we all kind of
know about is again the me Too movement. I learned
something that men have a certain privilege with respect to women.
One in particular, there's many, of course, but one in particular,
there are plenty, One in particular is testosterone. So what
(20:41):
I want to do is make a comparison testosterone white privilege.
You have an advantage in the shared spaces. Right, It's
less likely that I'm going to be challenged physically because
I'm a man, and as we know, men have a
(21:03):
lot in the way of strength. A man can kill
you very easily if he was committed kind of to
the cause, right because of testosterone. Those humans with less
testosterone as a rule, are less strong. Testosterone is the
(21:24):
thing that kind of falls.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Out, less aggressive, n likely to cause you physical on
and on.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Okay, So because I have been endowed with testosterone. If
I am somewhere and I witness another individual with testosterone
taking advantage of particularly physically, another person does not have testosterone,
(21:55):
and that fight is not fair. And in my mind,
in this scenario this is a man abusing a woman,
I cannot, as you said, throw my hands up and
say that's not my fight. It could be physical, or
it could be you know, some other invisible system, be
(22:17):
it employment, be it representation, be it you know, anything
like that. Right, But because I'm in the best possible
position to challenge that testosterone laden individual, it is my
responsibility to do so. Otherwise I could not call myself
(22:39):
an ally and for me Ramses in particular, I could
not call myself her brother. So that's a great parallel.
I think now anybody that was trying to figure out
what messaging they could take away from, or what the
(23:04):
thrust of this campaign is or should be, what are
the like the main takeaways. If I had to fire
off some ideas, I would want people to walk away
from really anything that we do, feeling capable, because it's
(23:32):
really easy to psych yourself out right feeling committed. I
would want people to feel like change is possible. I
would want people to feel like it's okay to make
a mistake, because remember, you're dealing oftentimes as an ally,
(23:54):
you're dealing with a group of people who have been hurt.
And sometimes even when you're helping individuals who've been hurt,
they you got to warm up to them a little bit.
You got to recognize that a lot of times their
pain comes from places that is not you, and it
(24:15):
might be directed in your direction. It's a thing that happens.
But again, you're committed to the long term, not to
the individual, but to the.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Cause, and that pain might also come from a place
or more specifically, a person that you resemble, and initially
you don't know the difference, right, I can it to
someone that's drowning, a person that's trying to pull them down,
and a person that's trying to save them feels the same.
They're in panic, they're afraid, a trauma based response. Yeah,
(24:44):
they don't yet know the difference. Sometimes they will fight
you for trying to save them too. You have to
be committed to that. Ask lifeguards, I did that job before.
I have to commit to saving this person who might
be actively trying to harm me because they don't know
any better,
Welcome to another episode of Civic Cicher. I am your host,
Rams's joh is H. I am q Ward.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
And you are tuned into.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
Indeed, you are got a great show lined up for
you today. We're going to be existing very much in
the abstract. We were asked a very important question from
a person that we look up to, and we started
to say the least a couple of people shout out
to Jan and Ali and they're working with us on
(00:32):
some really amazing things that come honest, that are in
the pipeline, so stay tuned for that. We were really
excited to announce that, but now is not the time. Anyway.
The long and short of it is, we were asked
a question which led to a pretty insightful conversation, and
that question was what does it mean to be an ally?
(00:56):
And I loved kind of where we went with it,
where our brains went, and how we kind of articulated
what that means. We're going to do our best to
share that with you today because our assumption is that
if you're listening to this show, or if you program
this show, or you download the podcast, whatever it is,
that to some degree you hope that the world can
(01:20):
be a better place for black and brown people, and
you are working to wonder or another to try to
manifest that. And so we're going to spend a good
amount of the show talking about ally Ship. We're also
going to spend some time talking about Rosewood for our Way,
Black History Fact, and a whole lot of other stuff,
a lot to stick around for. And I'm excited because
(01:43):
these are the sorts of topics where we get to
really rather than read the news and kind of give
you our thoughts and what we can do about it.
This is more about you who you are as a person,
and this is the episodes like these are the most meaningful. So,
like we always do it, this time, let's go ahead
and start off with some Ebony excellence. Provided that Ques
on board, we shall. So for this week's Ebony Excellence,
(02:07):
just know it is sponsored by Hip Hop Weekly Media,
and we are going to shout out or we're reading
from Black Enterprise Magazine. So we're going to shout out
the founders of black owned eyewear line who made history
signing a licensing deal with Nickelodeon. So I will read
meet Nancy Harris and Tracy Green, the founders of Loontel,
(02:30):
the first black women owned iwear company to have established
a partnership with Paramount and Nickelodeon. Their licensing deal allows
them to exclusively make fashion forward eyewear products for kids,
using popular characters like SpongeBob, SquarePants, Baby Shark, and Rugrats.
For their accomplishments in business, they were recently featured on
The Kelly Clarkson Show. Nancy comments quote, we are thrilled
(02:52):
to announce our three year partnership with Paramount. We are
proud to be the first African American women owned eyewear
company to have such a deal. Bontel is committed to
creating eyewear that celebrates the African diaspora. Tracy comments. Bontel
was founded to satisfy the demand for better fitting, vibrant,
luxury eyewear design and handcrafted to be homage to the African,
(03:15):
Caribbean and Latin diaspora. Now, I want to say something here.
Ebny Excellence is a part of the show that we
really love because a lot of times when we get
to this part of the show, we have to talk
about a lot of things that are happening in our
(03:36):
communities and our struggles, and that sort of stuff, and
it's important to remind you that we were not just
born to struggle. We were born to laugh and enjoy life,
and to be creative, and to fall in love, and
to raise our children and to cry tears of joy
and sadness and ebony. Excellence I think provides a very
important dynamic to the show. So I appreciate you letting
(03:58):
us get that off every single week. If somebody was
to come to you and say I would like to
be an ally, how does that look to you?
Speaker 2 (04:12):
I think the first thing that's important is it not
being performative. There is a tendency to very comfortably agree
with your friends, even when you don't wholeheartedly even understand
what you're agreeing with. Why they're hurt, why they're offended,
Why it feels like impression. I had a friend ask
(04:36):
me in the time where we're dealing very publicly with
the White Lives Matter trademark. One of us said something
about it being triggering. And this is a white friend
of mine, and she was very very confused as the idea, like,
why is that triggering to you? Why does the term
white Lives matter trigger you? This is a person that
(05:00):
not just someone that I know cares about me, but
that cares about my kids, that has invested in my
well being and is somebody that I call family. But
she was really like taken aback and confused at the
idea that that term would be something triggering or hurtful
to me. So taking the time to understand the why,
I think sets you up to be in a better
(05:21):
position where you're representing something that you also believe in.
Not just parenting my beliefs because you like me, not
just parenting my beliefs because you think that it's kind,
but actually understanding the why behind it. So me having
to explain to her what Black lives Matter means, where
it came from, why that affirmation was even necessary to
(05:43):
a group of people whose entire history has been oppression, marginalization, kidnap, murder,
and having all of that reinforced full time by the
infrastructure of the society that they live in. So not
just personal people's personal hatred, not just one to one
(06:07):
person to person racism, but the entire infrastructure of the company,
from government to policing to policy to education, reinforcing all
of these things that an entire group of people have
had to go through for their entire existence on this continent. Right,
(06:28):
having a system continue to show you that your life,
your posterity, your happiness, your existence is worthless. Right, Black
Lives Matter is simply reaffirming that we deserve to exist.
(06:49):
That's not saying that we should thrive and be prosperous
and pursue happiness. No, we even take it that far.
Is it okay for us to just exist here? Because
we're seeing ourselves murdered on video and even stin even
in that In that instance, your immediate reaction is to
(07:12):
convince people why we deserved it.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Okay, So let me jump in here. I think I
was once to ask this question. Uh. It was an
early episode of Civic Cipbert believe or not. One of
my neighbors came up because I think we had a
guest cancel, and he and I were having a good conversation.
I was like, you know what, you want to come
to my show? And he came up. I think that
(07:35):
you were This was I don't even know, but this
was early in again, and he asked me the same question, well,
you know, what can we do to support black people?
And I think what he was asking is how can
we be allies. How what does that look like? How
what does that look like? And so I recognized that
(07:58):
it's important to find what it is and then explain
how it looks. So, in short, if I was going
to use my own language appealing to somebody, one individual,
not a group, but one person, and I was to say, hey, listen,
I need some allyship, and they were to ask what
(08:19):
does that mean, I would start by saying, basically, just
just hold me down. Trust me when I say that
this is what it is. Value my perspective. Listen to me.
Step out of your own way and challenge the boundaries
(08:41):
of what you think empathy is, because everybody in their
own mind thinks that they can see it from the
other side. So challenge those boundaries. In fact, the things
that you feel are nonsense. Question why you might feel
that way, and ask questions toward that end to gain
(09:05):
more understanding, right, and then you'll be moving with the
why instead of just with the performative part that you
mentioned about just going through the motions. There's a why.
There's some substance there underneath your allyship. But that's why
that conversation was so important. You and I spoke about
(09:25):
this on our show before the words white lives matter,
just like black lives matter, should not be controversial or
offensive in any way, because, of course white lives matter.
Speaker 2 (09:37):
But it's the why that term was even born that
I had to explain to her. So that's why I
had to paint such a vivid picture as to why
black lives matter even existed, so that when I came
back and said, yeah, white lives matter came just to
oppose what I just told you, just to say, no,
your lives don't matter. If they're not you don't they
(09:58):
don't have worth, you don't just to exist. And then
my white friend understood the why and felt as offended
as I did. And that was a much longer form
conversation than that. But after you get to the why again,
you said it, I'm saying it again. It's not performative
anymore understanding from the perspective of the people who are hurt,
(10:21):
of the people who are being marginalized, their why, because
in this instance it's not yours.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Let me add something else to I think that allyship requires.
If you're committed to growing and challenging your beliefs, you
have to also be committed to a long campaign of learning,
because what will happen is you will say, oh, I
(10:54):
want to support you. I think that this is a
good thing you're doing. I want to be I want
to be activated in a way, in a meaningful way
where I can support you toward whatever end you're pursuing.
And then when you're away from me and you get
around your friends again, they might get into your be like,
you know, those guys are only doing that because of this,
(11:15):
and you know they're always saying that or did you
see this poll? And blah blah blah, And then now
you're like lost in the sauce again and you kind
of lose a little bit of steam. So you have
to be committed to a long campaign and bear in
mind that there are going to be some challenges along
the way. There's a lot of we did a whole episode,
you remember that episode we did on how data gets
(11:40):
manipulated and used against us, And there's a lot of
people where they come across that, people who would be
allies or have been allies, or whatever the case is,
and they come across these things which are either half
truths or distortions or you know, distortions of the truths
or whatever. And because it's presented as complete and factual.
(12:04):
They and they receive it that way, and then they're like,
oh what am I doing? Man? Because you know, that's
that's that's a valid point. Even the Dilbert comic guy
him with that straw pole thing or the ras Musen
pole thing, we just talked about him saying, oh, black
people feel like, uh, what do you say it's okay
(12:25):
to be white? Yeah, that's la people exactly, And that's
not nearly the complete story. You know that there's there's
a weight to that statement that is particularly offensive and oppressive.
And our belief is that the response in that right
(12:46):
leaning rass Musen poll, which you know, uh, wasn't even
fully explained because there's at least three parts of every pole.
They only showed two, but even still it didn't color
in those lines. And it's no different from saying is
it okay to be white? And people's you know, having
an issue with that statement because it in and of
(13:08):
itself is a racist statement. I told you about the
group I'm Reddit I'm a part of, and the group
is titled It's Okay to Be White, and the group
is racist people, and we use this for fodder for
the show, right, it's similar to challenging what we talked
about as people. It is black power as a statement problematic.
(13:33):
Most folks Black folks would be like, no, not problematic
at all. I understand it. It means that, you know,
our community is galvanized around a cause of mission whatever.
And that's the same group of folks. Is white power problematic?
Everybody be like yeah, totally because that phrase, even though
it's just one word change, that phrase is rooted in
(13:53):
the oppression of black people and the meaning, the meaning
behind it is very different. So again, this is it
okay to be white, sure, but the meaning behind that
phrase is not just the language. It's there's a deeper,
more sinister component that is not reflected in Erasmussen poll.
And the dober guy is completely shot off his track.
(14:14):
And then the people that feel like, well, look look
at the poll numbers. I get why he's saying that.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
That data's presented that way for those people intentionally to
kind of light a match to their to their their
fuel if you will. But you spoke about committing to
like a long term journey of learning, challenging your own
implicit biases, You're going to hear stuff that's wrong. That
sounds like how you feel, and it'll make you want
to defend it. Right, So I told you, anytime I
(14:40):
speak about it, speak out about our former president, people
that I know reach out to me to defend him.
And I realized after the third or fourth person, Oh,
they're reaching out to defend themselves. I presented something that
they kind of agree with, or some part of what
he's saying or what he feels that they also feel.
(15:03):
I didn't say anything about his ideology. I just said
something about him essentially being a bad person. And by
this person reaching out to tell me all these great
things he's done, it's like, oh, they feel like I'm
attacking them. It's in those moments of discomfort where you
really have to do some work. Because of implicit biases
(15:23):
and because of unlived experience, there are going to be
some things like, my friend, you are not going to
understand why people feel that way. You and I learned
that we had so much to do and so much
room to grow and learn with regards to being allies
to women. This is Reverend Estella's son six sisters. You know, girl, dad,
(15:48):
Oh my god, did we have a lot to learn.
So we could have saw these things, these points of
views that we oh man, I might have kind of
thought like that and held onto that and stood opposed
to women where we had to just say flat out no,
you're wrong too.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
So I think you're nailing it right here. So I'm
glad you brought up the I'm assuming you're alluding to
the me too movement. Watch this. I mean, yes, that's it,
and that's what started the conversation.
Speaker 2 (16:17):
You're really talking about being allies to women in general.
We feel very short and doing our part.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Okay, So what does allyship mean? Ramses? Well, allyship means,
as I mentioned, I'm committed to the long term journey
with this group of people. That I'm not a part
(16:45):
of this group. I'm not a woman. But if they
say that's what they want, I follow their leadership. I
support in ways that they deem meaningful. Where I can
and where I can't, I challenge myself to try to
show up, make a sign, you know whatever. You know
(17:07):
what I'm saying. I'm always pushing myself to stand as
a brother to my sisters. That's a word that I
use that I mean, you know that, and that word
is a very special word to me because my dad
had twenty four other kids. So that's not something that
(17:29):
I take lightly. That's not something that I don't know
nothing about. I am a brother, the big brothers, a
little brothers, big sisters and little sisters. You know what
I'm saying. And they all caught his phone and it'll
be cool. So when I'm saying that, is like, Okay,
what is allyship? What are you trying to do? How
can I be the best brother to you possible? Will
you please instruct me? And then doing that and being
(17:52):
committed to the long journey and maybe even being committed
to the outcomes that whatever group we're talking about in
this case, women want. And where I can make small
changes I do. Where I can make big changes, I do,
And if I can't, I bear in mind, then maybe
(18:15):
this isn't my fight. I need to let my sisters
fight this one. I need to sit back. I don't
seek recognition, you know. And it's not a matter of
waiting to be called. It's an active So be at
the ready, but be at the ready to be called
to greater tasks. Be ready to be called to greater
(18:35):
tasks as well. So again I'm not entirely sure if
that fits neatly in a little like a definition thing.
Speaker 2 (18:44):
Well, you know, if I have to expound, because you've
said a lot of what it means to me as well,
I'll just add to that. A lot of times we
let our lack of understanding cause us to take a
backseat and not participate at all.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
That's not my fight. I don't really understand that, that's
not it.
Speaker 2 (19:03):
So I'm gonna just cross my hands over here and
watch and observing is just as bad, you know what
I mean? Like, just observing passively and not actively working
to help resolve or help support that group that you're
not a part of, is just as bad. Don't be
a passivist be an ally, even while you're being educated,
(19:24):
even while you're trying to learn, be an ally, you
cannot let your ignorance paralyze you in a way that
you don't participate.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
Do you want to hear something really cool? I just
made a connection. I want to see if it works.
All right, So we talk about white privilege, right, people
that enjoy white privilege are oftentimes in the best possible
position to be allies. Right. Sure, some people don't acknowledge it,
(19:57):
some people aren't aware of it. Whatever. But the fact
remains is that in the vast majority of circumstances, those
who enjoy white privilege are in the best possible positions
to have that title of ally right now, the parallel here,
and I know we can't make a lot of parallels
(20:17):
to other movements because this is kind of ours, but
one that's in recent memory that we all kind of
know about is again the me Too movement. I learned
something that men have a certain privilege with respect to women.
One in particular, there's many, of course, but one in particular,
there are plenty, One in particular is testosterone. So what
(20:41):
I want to do is make a comparison testosterone white privilege.
You have an advantage in the shared spaces. Right, It's
less likely that I'm going to be challenged physically because
I'm a man, and as we know, men have a
(21:03):
lot in the way of strength. A man can kill
you very easily if he was committed kind of to
the cause, right because of testosterone. Those humans with less
testosterone as a rule, are less strong. Testosterone is the
(21:24):
thing that kind of falls.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
Out, less aggressive, n likely to cause you physical on
and on.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Okay, So because I have been endowed with testosterone. If
I am somewhere and I witness another individual with testosterone
taking advantage of particularly physically, another person does not have testosterone,
(21:55):
and that fight is not fair. And in my mind,
in this scenario this is a man abusing a woman,
I cannot, as you said, throw my hands up and
say that's not my fight. It could be physical, or
it could be you know, some other invisible system, be
(22:17):
it employment, be it representation, be it you know, anything
like that. Right, But because I'm in the best possible
position to challenge that testosterone laden individual, it is my
responsibility to do so. Otherwise I could not call myself
(22:39):
an ally and for me Ramses in particular, I could
not call myself her brother. So that's a great parallel.
I think now anybody that was trying to figure out
what messaging they could take away from, or what the
(23:04):
thrust of this campaign is or should be, what are
the like the main takeaways. If I had to fire
off some ideas, I would want people to walk away
from really anything that we do, feeling capable, because it's
(23:32):
really easy to psych yourself out right feeling committed. I
would want people to feel like change is possible. I
would want people to feel like it's okay to make
a mistake, because remember, you're dealing oftentimes as an ally,
(23:54):
you're dealing with a group of people who have been hurt.
And sometimes even when you're helping individuals who've been hurt,
they you got to warm up to them a little bit.
You got to recognize that a lot of times their
pain comes from places that is not you, and it
(24:15):
might be directed in your direction. It's a thing that happens.
But again, you're committed to the long term, not to
the individual, but to the.
Speaker 2 (24:21):
Cause, and that pain might also come from a place
or more specifically, a person that you resemble, and initially
you don't know the difference, right, I can it to
someone that's drowning, a person that's trying to pull them down,
and a person that's trying to save them feels the same.
They're in panic, they're afraid, a trauma based response. Yeah,
(24:44):
they don't yet know the difference. Sometimes they will fight
you for trying to save them too. You have to
be committed to that. Ask lifeguards, I did that job before.
I have to commit to saving this person who might
be actively trying to harm me because they don't know
any better,
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