August 30, 2025 • 27 mins
Bobby Nichols is the former Phoenix Democratic Socialist of America's chapter chair and current member. He is the founder of Arizona Works Together, a pro-union political action committee operating at the state level. Additionally, Bobby Nichols works for the Office of the Arizona Attorney General as a state attorney representing Arizona's Departments of Child Safety and Economic Security in Superior and Administrative Court cases involving the abuse, neglect, and exploitation of minor children and vulnerable adults.
In the first half of today’s program, we discuss the DSA National Convention, key takeaways for the forthcoming political season, and revisit the merits of socialism relative to other economic models.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Broadcasting from the Hip Hop Weekly Studios. I'd like to
welcome you to another episode of Civic Cyber, where our
mission is to foster allyship, empathy and understanding. I am
your host, Ramsey's job. Big shout out to my man
q Ward, who is off in the City of Angels
making the world a better place. But if you miss
him like I miss him, do yourself a favor and
(00:21):
check out our other show, The QR Code. He and
I have been having some really interesting conversations and I
am excited for the time when he does end up
back on this show. He's just busy right now.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
But have no fear.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
We have the return of a special guest in the
studio with us today. He goes by the name of
Bobby Nichols. And for those that don't remember or miss
the episode of Bobby Nichols is the former Phoenix Democratic
Socialist of America's Chapter chair and current member. He's the
founder of Arizona Works together, a pro union political action
committee operating at the state level. Additionally, Bobby Nichols works
(00:56):
for the Office of the Arizona Attorney General as a
state attorney representing Arizona Departments of Child Safety, and Economic Security,
and superior and administrative court cases involving the abuse, neglect,
and exploitation of minor children and vulnerable adults. It's important
that we note he is not here speaking as a
representative of the Attorney General's Office. He is, however, currently
(01:18):
campaigning first the city council for the city of Tempe, Arizona.
And today we are going to be having a conversation
about the national convention for the National Democratic Socialist of
America Convention and some of the things that have been
(01:40):
developing in terms of leadership strategy and what folks need
to know on the ground. And then later we're going
to kind of make that local and really talk about
how people can make a difference in their immediate realities.
And you know, obviously takes some advice from somebody who's
kind of walking that path. So welcome back to the show, Thank.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
You, thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Before we move on, though, as always, we'd like to
start with some ebony excellence in today's ABNY excellence comes
from the Black Information Network and I will share a
ten year old black girl has made history after receiving
a full ride scholarship to South Carolina State University Kendall
Ray Johnson, who was already recognized as the youngest certified
(02:19):
farmer in the US, was awarded a full ride scholarship
to South Carolina State University for Agriculture per eleven alive. Quote,
I'm the first ten year old to get a full
ride scholarship unquote, Johnson's say. SCSU president Alexander Conyers personally
awarded the HBCU scholarship to Johnson, which will cover her tuition, bees, room,
(02:39):
and board. Quote. If I can give scholarships to athletes,
I can give one to an ag scholar too, Conyer said,
AG would be short for agriculture Uglily all Right. Johnson
earned her farmer certification at age six. Since then, Johnson
has been working her family's backyard farm, attending vegetables, caaren
for livestock stock, and helping her parents manage operations. The
(03:02):
fifth grader hopes to grow her farm to one hundred acres,
complete with longhorn cattle, poultry, and more. Johnson is also
a USDA National Urban Agriculture Youth Ambassador, where she helps
kids across the country get involved in farming and apply
for youth agriculture scholarships. So I don't know. I love
the story. Q actually sent this over to the group
(03:24):
chat because one of the things that we haven't really
been able to cover as much as we'd like to
on this show is the fact that black people and
brown people as well and to a lesser extent, mar
other marginalized groups often find ourselves living in food deserts.
(03:44):
And so not only is this a young lady who
is grabbing life by the horns in terms of education,
but she's also doing something that really addresses a problem
that we're facing with and that we haven't really covered
as much as we'd like to on the show. But again,
shout out to Kendall Ray Johnson. All Right, so Bobby Nichols,
(04:10):
first off, I want to say the last time you
were here, you had a very potent conversation with me,
and our listeners did appreciate. That ruffled some feathers, I
think just because of the word socialist, but I'm sure
(04:30):
you know that comes with the territory. You know, I'm
not going to state your brief expected sure, but the
fact that people were talking, I think that matters because
we have a lot of conversations with a lot of people,
and you know, Obviously the all the conversations are important,
but I think a conversation about a different way of
(04:54):
framing your your immediate reality or something that is for
some people it's very uncomfortable, and for other people it
represents almost like a utopia. And so again challenging the
parameters in the framework of people's existing I guess mental framework.
(05:17):
I guess is something that you know. I'm glad I
have the chance now to tell you that that was
really important conversation. I'm glad that we were able to
have that conversation now before we discuss the National DSA
convention and all the goings on there. For folks that
missed that conversation. What is democratic socialism?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Democratic socialism in its simplest form is a social and
economic system where you place community over criminalization. You've based
on equality and equity instead of exploitation, and you allow
the people who create and the workers of the world
to control their own destiny. When you do that democratically
(05:58):
as the most effective way to capture the most political opinions,
and you use that democratic consensus to make the world
a better place for everyone, not just the wealthiest of
the wealthy or the children of the wealthiest of the wealthy.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah, I tried to do it a little more quickly
at that time.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
No, you got it. You got it. And another thing,
and I'll add this, and I think this was something
that really resonated with me that we discussed last time.
And my hope is that for people just coming to
this conversation that I'd like to add here is that
I didn't get the impression that you were like anti
(06:41):
capitalist or I hate capitalism necessarily. That may be true,
but I didn't get that from the conversation. Rather, what
I got was something that felt like, hey, look, once
you've kind of achieved peak capitalism, the next evolution that
minimizes exploitation, that really allows people to get their time
(07:01):
back so that they can live their lives as people,
conscious beings, as opposed to live their lives as individual
units of labor. The next evolution of peak capitalism is
indeed socialism, and so me thinking of it in those terms,
I think really helped me to understand where to place
it in the broad scheme of things capitalism, communism, socialism, etc.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Right now, I would say that capitalism is a step
on the social and economic development chart of human society.
We had to move from feudalism and that was replaced
by capitalism. We had to replace capitalism now, or we
have to replace capitalism now with democratic socialism. Is that
is the next step in developing an equal and equitable world.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Okay, okay, all right, So now that that's out of
the way, some developments, So I do want to have
this conversation about kind of the latest I guess talking
points or takeaways from the national DSA convention, But talk
to us about because this is not a political party,
so talk to us how the Democratic Socialists of America
(08:12):
how do they operate at the national level? What does
that look like? Right?
Speaker 2 (08:15):
So, the easiest way to think about it is there's
an umbrella organization that is elected by representatives of the
local organizations, and that elected body goes and helps to
maintain and administrate all of the work that's happening nationally
and all of the work that's happening locally. They don't
go in and micromanage, but they will provide support, whether
(08:37):
that's through paid staffers who come and help the chapters.
The chapters are the local organizations. So in Maricopa County
where we live, there is a Phoenix Metro Chapter of
the Democratic Socialists of America, and they we work in
a lot of different areas. Down here, there's also a
Tucson chapter, a newly formed flag Staff chapter, which went
(08:58):
from being an organizing committee of just a few friends
who believe in democratic socialism to a genuine chapter that
is now having its own socials and doing its own
political work. Really impressive stuff. And so those groups every
two years will elect a delegation to send to the
National Convention. And that National Convention is the highest decision
(09:20):
making body of the Democratic Socialists of America. Even the
elected representatives who come out of the National Convention are
beneath the Convention itself, and so that's where we end
up deciding on resolutions for big policy goals, sort of
our two year plans, three year plans, four year plans,
things that are going to be determining how we all
(09:42):
work together and what the national movement will be looking
like for the next years to come.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Okay, okay, So I think I get an idea of
sort of the purpose of the National Convention, which is
basically to organize and make sure everyone's on the same page,
and then taking the messaging out into the Yeah, the country.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
There's a level of it where we feel like that's
the most democratic way to do decision making. We could
just elect the National Political Committee, which is the name
of our board of directors for lack of a better term,
but instead and they could make all the decisions. But instead,
what we do is we all come together, we bring
our local representatives, and we discuss issues like whether we
(10:24):
should be putting our money into recruiting a candidate for president,
or whether we should be putting our time into organizing
just electoral actions or just mutual aid actions, whether we
should be putting out a specific policy around issues like
what's happening in Gaza, things like that. And then the
National Political Committee they have their input on how that's
(10:45):
administrated and administered over the course of the following two years,
and then we elect a new one every two years.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Okay, So let's talk about I guess, the history of
thesa's National Convention and maybe some things that have been
accomplished or some noteworthy I guess points in the timeline.
Just yeah, so that people understand a little bit more about.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
So DSA comes from a merger of two significant movements
in America's leftist spaces, and that's the anti War Vietnam
era movement and the Socialist Party of Eugene Debs that
had splintered into a couple of different factions over by
a couple, I mean dozens of factions at this point,
(11:34):
but groups like Communist Party USA. There are some other
groups in America that are formerly part of the Socialist
Party that Eugene Debs, who was a presidential candidate from
the early nineteen hundreds during World War One. He ran
his campaign from prison and received well over a million votes,
which was significant at the time. That group then after
(11:56):
his passing and after there's a lot more detail I
could go into their Essentially it broke into multiple groups
that did political organizing for socialism in America, and one
of those groups was called the Democratic Socialist Organizing Committee,
which had I think about four or five thousand members
when it merged with the New America Movement, which was
a student led movement from the Vietnam anti War Vietnam
(12:20):
movement to become the Democratic Socialist of America. So the
first first DSA convention was back in the eighties, and
at that time there were only about six thousand people
in the entire organization across the country, and it maintained
roughly six to ten thousand people for about the next
(12:41):
thirty years, up until the mid twenty tens, when Bernie
Sanders ran for president and the word democratic socialism or
the phrase democratic socialism became a dinner table conversation, our
kitchen table conversation. Following that, a lot of the work
that deal and up until that point, YESA had been
involved in a lot of union organizing, a lot of
(13:05):
local organizing, a lot of city council races, things that
were easier for these smaller groups to engage with in
their local spaces, but they were always connected to this
larger national movement. And it wasn't really until a large
national figure, Bernie Sanders, stepped in and was willing to
associate himself both with Democratic Democratic Socialism and the DSA
(13:30):
that we saw our first explosion in membership. So we
went from about five to six thousand, maybe ten thousand
numbers to well over one hundred thousand members by the
time Bernie was running his second campaign. And there's both
the Bernie Sanders bump, which we've seen another recent Zoron
bump where you see somebody who is a national figure
(13:51):
who's into Democratic Zoron Mundani from New York City. That's right,
he's the recent Democratic primary winner and he's currently running
for mayor of New York in the general election. Now,
those positive bumps are really really empowering, but there are
also negative upticks that are associated with Donald Trump winning.
(14:12):
And for the last two times Donald Trump has one,
we've seen a significant uptick in membership and it's directly
related to the Democratic Party's failure to take on fascism
meaningfully and to pose a significant obstacle to Trump's fascist
takeover of so many United States institutions. So the largest
(14:33):
wins that the Democratic Socialists have been involved in are
both organizing with unions like the UAW and the Electricians
Union nationally and workers that's correct, Yeah, United Auto Workers.
Sean Faine has been a great alley of the ally
of the DSA.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
I think I heard of that association for these conversations.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
And actually are we have some connections to the UAW
in Arizona as well. Yeah. But the other victories would
be candidates like Rashida Talib, who won out in Detroit
and is currently a US representative, one of the most
principled socialist representatives we can get, and she actually spoke
(15:15):
at the most recent DSA convention. It was genuinely deeply moving.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
I was going to ask, so, were there any like
national figures that our listeners might know about that spoke there,
and you mentioned.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Ra Yeah, Rashida Tlib spoke at this twenty twenty five convention,
And actually Zoron Mamdani spoke at the twenty twenty three
convention when he was just a New York State assemblyman
and it was, you know, really really moving and really
inspirational for me and for a lot of people. And
the one thing that he sort of identified as distinguishing
him from other electeds and other progressives even was that
(15:50):
he had that institutional backing of a national organization. So
when Cuomo was going around and trying to interrupt people's
work or trying to bring them onto his Zorn was
able to resist that because he didn't need Cuomo's money,
he didn't need quomo support to get elected. He had DSA.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, that's another thing too, And I don't know if
this is something that's true, but I did recall hearing
how funding was really what allowed or I guess a
lack of traditional funding and leaning into just kind of
(16:27):
community funding for these campaigns was what allowed these socialist ideas.
I don't like calling them socialist ideas because they feel
like human ideas. Yeah, you know, but these ideas to
breathe freely in the political space and the debate space.
And so is that something that is part and parcel
(16:48):
to the Democratic Socialist.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Of America one hund okay. And it's become so so
integral to so many of our campaigns that now we
have really effective fundraising strategies where you see Zorn recently
put out a video where he said, stop sending me money.
I've received all of the money I can take in
this race, but I still need volunteers. I still need
(17:13):
people to turn out, Like there are ways to get
involved that is not just donating money, although the money
is definitely and these grassroots movements that you first saw
or we first most recently saw with Bernie Sanders or
he really changed the game in terms of like taking
money from political action committees and super packs, which is
the main way that most politicians fund their campaigns is
(17:35):
they find a few incredibly wealthy individuals they go to
their special interest groups and then they have those individuals
put money into a political action committee which can then
make you know, donations without being nearly as accountable or
having nearly as much oversight. But what we got instead
of incredible billionaire power is we have incredible people power.
(17:56):
You know, we have a movement for socialism in America
and that is what has been funding both our campaigns
and our work with the unions and our work just
around the country. Everybody in DSA is able to or
asked to pay dues. I pay dues to National DSA.
I pay dues to the local dssay as well, And
there's a dues waiver that people can have. You don't
(18:18):
have to pay dues, and you can set your own dues.
But by contributing financially to the movement, you are empowering
it to continue growing in Ameru.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
And I would I would also add to that, in
my estimation, you're also protecting your independence from corporate interests
and non people based political influence. You know what I mean,
everything that I've I've seen about socialism, once I get
(18:52):
past like the first level of fear mongering, right, it
really does feel like all right, so this is what
makes the most sense for the most people. And whereas
capitalism is like, well, once there is money involved, people's
instinct is to compete for the money, right, And I
(19:16):
think socialism has a different take fundamentally on our nature
as human beings, and that is okay, we got to
take care of each other, So let's do the thing
that takes care of the most people. Now. Obviously, unfettered
capitalism can be very bad, and there are versions of
socialism where there's corruption and all that sort of stuff
(19:36):
that can be very bad. Same with community, same with
any governmental framework. But at its essence, one of them
expects human beings to compete with each other and the
other one expects human beings to cooperate with each other.
And for me, when I look at it, it feels like,
oh yeah, this cannot be as scary as people have
(19:56):
made it out to be. And often when they use
the worst examples of it to try to scare people
away from things like socialist programs, this is this is
a capitalist country, will stop. But socialist programs. When they
try to scare people away from that, and they use
the worst examples, I think that they're really cherry picking
and telling the worst version of the stories. And as
(20:19):
a person who has traveled haven't just researched it, I've
like seen countries where they're capitalist countries, but they have very,
very strong, certainly stronger than here in the US socialist programs,
and those countries when you look at like happiness index
and you know, rates of like poverty and that sort
(20:42):
of stuff. The countries that consistently beat the United States
by a long way all have a capitalistic framework with
robust socialist models to the point where it almost looks
like socialism. And so I wanted to make sure I
said that you have reflect on the course of it.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I wou'd say, it's interesting that we sort of see
that happening so often, where you'll have a capitalist system
that has a failing and then a socialist program covers
it up. Then there's another failing and a socialist program
covers it up. What we have found, and what I
have found, is that capitalism is working as intended when
(21:21):
there are homeless people and breadlines and high prices and
people can't get their homes. Socialism when those things are happening,
is not functioning properly. And there is another change that
needs to happen. Socialism is not supposed to have those things.
And so when we see flawed socialist systems or flawed
implementation of socialist systems, it is sort of still establishing
(21:44):
that we are working towards a better world, whereas under
a capitalist system you get what you got. Yeah, and
that's sort of all it's going to be.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
If I may, I'd like to add something here, and
I'll get back to the rest of the questions. But
I have it in my notes notes of course. But
I remember reading about capitalism. This might have been five
years ago, and in a capitalistic framework, you cannot have
one hundred percent employment. It's not it doesn't lend itself
(22:16):
to a capitalistic framework. You need some unemployment to keep
wages low. And then you know, they're like dominoes. If
one of them falls in the whole system fall. So
to your point, you're always going to have unemployment in
a capitalistic model.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
You're also always going to have homelessness that you can
keep home prizes or housing price is high. You're always
going to have sick and addicted people because you need
to make it expensive to get healthcare, and you can't
do that if everybody already has this. My fiance is
preparing to go to medical school and one of the
classes she had to take was economics of healthcare and
(22:53):
while she was in right while she was in that program,
there was a question she got asked which was, if
you have what is the maximum like purchasing field for
how much? How many liver transplants can you sell? Basically
what's the question? And her response was you can sell
as many liver transplants as there are people on the
(23:17):
liver transplant transplant list. And she was told, un quoting,
you need to stop being so altruistic, which is just ridiculous.
You can't just sell liveris to people who don't need them.
And if there is a market for purchasing livers, then
that speaks to an entirely separate, dystopian issue. So capitalism
(23:37):
is built on inequality and it requires inequality to function properly,
whereas socialism is built to eliminate inequality.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
There it is there, It is so thank you for
saying that, because again I think that for people that
don't like end up splashing around in these waters here,
they just think that people like you are crazy and
people like me who are interested are also crazy and
(24:05):
we are just anti American or something like that. And
I think that the truth is that we see America
kind of reaching its potential in this version, in this
incarnation of itself, and now it's time for the next evolution.
And that's something that you are able to kind of
articulate in a masterful way. So I appreciate that. Let
(24:28):
me ask you one more question, and you can say
what you wanted to say, but I want to make
sure I get this question before we run out of
time here in terms of the dssay, given all the
things that are happening in the world right now, do
you believe that the DSA can be an effective organization
(24:48):
on the national level?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
And if so, how I absolutely do believe that DSA
can be an effective national organization, And it's going to
be through continuing to support the local work of chapters
who are addressing national issues like homelessness, fascism, addiction, and
housing prices. Those are things that DSA broadly unions as well,
and like workers' rights across the board, feminism, black are
(25:10):
black equality just generally, those are things that DSA can
support sure, and by being a powerful national organization and
having a consistent democratic process. We empower that work across
the board.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Sure, and you know, one of the things that it's
certainly concerning. I use that word, and I should use
a heavier word, is to see how the current administration
is co opting the idea of inequality to suggest that
(25:51):
the people who have historically and still currently have all
of the power and all the control are somehow being
discriminated against. And the measures that have been put into
place to bring about more equitable, equitable goes and more
(26:11):
opportunities somehow is disadvantaging those who have historically and currently
still have the power, and somehow they're discriminatory in nature.
It feels crazy for us, and so I can only
imagine how that might feel to an organization whose whole
point is to try to make sure that opportunities are
(26:35):
available to everyone and that the society is navigable by
all folks and no one is left behind. And I
know that this is kind of a fantasy, because there's
no perfect society, but I guess the push is something
that I would imagine that you're wrestling with. But I
(26:56):
applaud your efforts, and again I appreciate the conversation
Broadcasting from the Hip Hop Weekly Studios. I'd like to
welcome you to another episode of Civic Cyber, where our
mission is to foster allyship, empathy and understanding. I am
your host, Ramsey's job. Big shout out to my man
q Ward, who is off in the City of Angels
making the world a better place. But if you miss
him like I miss him, do yourself a favor and
(00:21):
check out our other show, The QR Code. He and
I have been having some really interesting conversations and I
am excited for the time when he does end up
back on this show. He's just busy right now.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
But have no fear.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
We have the return of a special guest in the
studio with us today. He goes by the name of
Bobby Nichols. And for those that don't remember or miss
the episode of Bobby Nichols is the former Phoenix Democratic
Socialist of America's Chapter chair and current member. He's the
founder of Arizona Works together, a pro union political action
committee operating at the state level. Additionally, Bobby Nichols works
(00:56):
for the Office of the Arizona Attorney General as a
state attorney representing Arizona Departments of Child Safety, and Economic Security,
and superior and administrative court cases involving the abuse, neglect,
and exploitation of minor children and vulnerable adults. It's important
that we note he is not here speaking as a
representative of the Attorney General's Office. He is, however, currently
(01:18):
campaigning first the city council for the city of Tempe, Arizona.
And today we are going to be having a conversation
about the national convention for the National Democratic Socialist of
America Convention and some of the things that have been
(01:40):
developing in terms of leadership strategy and what folks need
to know on the ground. And then later we're going
to kind of make that local and really talk about
how people can make a difference in their immediate realities.
And you know, obviously takes some advice from somebody who's
kind of walking that path. So welcome back to the show, Thank.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
You, thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
Before we move on, though, as always, we'd like to
start with some ebony excellence in today's ABNY excellence comes
from the Black Information Network and I will share a
ten year old black girl has made history after receiving
a full ride scholarship to South Carolina State University Kendall
Ray Johnson, who was already recognized as the youngest certified
(02:19):
farmer in the US, was awarded a full ride scholarship
to South Carolina State University for Agriculture per eleven alive. Quote,
I'm the first ten year old to get a full
ride scholarship unquote, Johnson's say. SCSU president Alexander Conyers personally
awarded the HBCU scholarship to Johnson, which will cover her tuition, bees, room,
(02:39):
and board. Quote. If I can give scholarships to athletes,
I can give one to an ag scholar too, Conyer said,
AG would be short for agriculture Uglily all Right. Johnson
earned her farmer certification at age six. Since then, Johnson
has been working her family's backyard farm, attending vegetables, caaren
for livestock stock, and helping her parents manage operations. The
(03:02):
fifth grader hopes to grow her farm to one hundred acres,
complete with longhorn cattle, poultry, and more. Johnson is also
a USDA National Urban Agriculture Youth Ambassador, where she helps
kids across the country get involved in farming and apply
for youth agriculture scholarships. So I don't know. I love
the story. Q actually sent this over to the group
(03:24):
chat because one of the things that we haven't really
been able to cover as much as we'd like to
on this show is the fact that black people and
brown people as well and to a lesser extent, mar
other marginalized groups often find ourselves living in food deserts.
(03:44):
And so not only is this a young lady who
is grabbing life by the horns in terms of education,
but she's also doing something that really addresses a problem
that we're facing with and that we haven't really covered
as much as we'd like to on the show. But again,
shout out to Kendall Ray Johnson. All Right, so Bobby Nichols,
(04:10):
first off, I want to say the last time you
were here, you had a very potent conversation with me,
and our listeners did appreciate. That ruffled some feathers, I
think just because of the word socialist, but I'm sure
(04:30):
you know that comes with the territory. You know, I'm
not going to state your brief expected sure, but the
fact that people were talking, I think that matters because
we have a lot of conversations with a lot of people,
and you know, Obviously the all the conversations are important,
but I think a conversation about a different way of
(04:54):
framing your your immediate reality or something that is for
some people it's very uncomfortable, and for other people it
represents almost like a utopia. And so again challenging the
parameters in the framework of people's existing I guess mental framework.
(05:17):
I guess is something that you know. I'm glad I
have the chance now to tell you that that was
really important conversation. I'm glad that we were able to
have that conversation now before we discuss the National DSA
convention and all the goings on there. For folks that
missed that conversation. What is democratic socialism?
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Democratic socialism in its simplest form is a social and
economic system where you place community over criminalization. You've based
on equality and equity instead of exploitation, and you allow
the people who create and the workers of the world
to control their own destiny. When you do that democratically
(05:58):
as the most effective way to capture the most political opinions,
and you use that democratic consensus to make the world
a better place for everyone, not just the wealthiest of
the wealthy or the children of the wealthiest of the wealthy.
Speaker 1 (06:13):
Thank you for that.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Yeah, I tried to do it a little more quickly
at that time.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
No, you got it. You got it. And another thing,
and I'll add this, and I think this was something
that really resonated with me that we discussed last time.
And my hope is that for people just coming to
this conversation that I'd like to add here is that
I didn't get the impression that you were like anti
(06:41):
capitalist or I hate capitalism necessarily. That may be true,
but I didn't get that from the conversation. Rather, what
I got was something that felt like, hey, look, once
you've kind of achieved peak capitalism, the next evolution that
minimizes exploitation, that really allows people to get their time
(07:01):
back so that they can live their lives as people,
conscious beings, as opposed to live their lives as individual
units of labor. The next evolution of peak capitalism is
indeed socialism, and so me thinking of it in those terms,
I think really helped me to understand where to place
it in the broad scheme of things capitalism, communism, socialism, etc.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Right now, I would say that capitalism is a step
on the social and economic development chart of human society.
We had to move from feudalism and that was replaced
by capitalism. We had to replace capitalism now, or we
have to replace capitalism now with democratic socialism. Is that
is the next step in developing an equal and equitable world.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Okay, okay, all right, So now that that's out of
the way, some developments, So I do want to have
this conversation about kind of the latest I guess talking
points or takeaways from the national DSA convention, But talk
to us about because this is not a political party,
so talk to us how the Democratic Socialists of America
(08:12):
how do they operate at the national level? What does
that look like? Right?
Speaker 2 (08:15):
So, the easiest way to think about it is there's
an umbrella organization that is elected by representatives of the
local organizations, and that elected body goes and helps to
maintain and administrate all of the work that's happening nationally
and all of the work that's happening locally. They don't
go in and micromanage, but they will provide support, whether
(08:37):
that's through paid staffers who come and help the chapters.
The chapters are the local organizations. So in Maricopa County
where we live, there is a Phoenix Metro Chapter of
the Democratic Socialists of America, and they we work in
a lot of different areas. Down here, there's also a
Tucson chapter, a newly formed flag Staff chapter, which went
(08:58):
from being an organizing committee of just a few friends
who believe in democratic socialism to a genuine chapter that
is now having its own socials and doing its own
political work. Really impressive stuff. And so those groups every
two years will elect a delegation to send to the
National Convention. And that National Convention is the highest decision
(09:20):
making body of the Democratic Socialists of America. Even the
elected representatives who come out of the National Convention are
beneath the Convention itself, and so that's where we end
up deciding on resolutions for big policy goals, sort of
our two year plans, three year plans, four year plans,
things that are going to be determining how we all
(09:42):
work together and what the national movement will be looking
like for the next years to come.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Okay, okay, So I think I get an idea of
sort of the purpose of the National Convention, which is
basically to organize and make sure everyone's on the same page,
and then taking the messaging out into the Yeah, the country.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
There's a level of it where we feel like that's
the most democratic way to do decision making. We could
just elect the National Political Committee, which is the name
of our board of directors for lack of a better term,
but instead and they could make all the decisions. But instead,
what we do is we all come together, we bring
our local representatives, and we discuss issues like whether we
(10:24):
should be putting our money into recruiting a candidate for president,
or whether we should be putting our time into organizing
just electoral actions or just mutual aid actions, whether we
should be putting out a specific policy around issues like
what's happening in Gaza, things like that. And then the
National Political Committee they have their input on how that's
(10:45):
administrated and administered over the course of the following two years,
and then we elect a new one every two years.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Okay, So let's talk about I guess, the history of
thesa's National Convention and maybe some things that have been
accomplished or some noteworthy I guess points in the timeline.
Just yeah, so that people understand a little bit more about.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
So DSA comes from a merger of two significant movements
in America's leftist spaces, and that's the anti War Vietnam
era movement and the Socialist Party of Eugene Debs that
had splintered into a couple of different factions over by
a couple, I mean dozens of factions at this point,
(11:34):
but groups like Communist Party USA. There are some other
groups in America that are formerly part of the Socialist
Party that Eugene Debs, who was a presidential candidate from
the early nineteen hundreds during World War One. He ran
his campaign from prison and received well over a million votes,
which was significant at the time. That group then after
(11:56):
his passing and after there's a lot more detail I
could go into their Essentially it broke into multiple groups
that did political organizing for socialism in America, and one
of those groups was called the Democratic Socialist Organizing Committee,
which had I think about four or five thousand members
when it merged with the New America Movement, which was
a student led movement from the Vietnam anti War Vietnam
(12:20):
movement to become the Democratic Socialist of America. So the
first first DSA convention was back in the eighties, and
at that time there were only about six thousand people
in the entire organization across the country, and it maintained
roughly six to ten thousand people for about the next
(12:41):
thirty years, up until the mid twenty tens, when Bernie
Sanders ran for president and the word democratic socialism or
the phrase democratic socialism became a dinner table conversation, our
kitchen table conversation. Following that, a lot of the work
that deal and up until that point, YESA had been
involved in a lot of union organizing, a lot of
(13:05):
local organizing, a lot of city council races, things that
were easier for these smaller groups to engage with in
their local spaces, but they were always connected to this
larger national movement. And it wasn't really until a large
national figure, Bernie Sanders, stepped in and was willing to
associate himself both with Democratic Democratic Socialism and the DSA
(13:30):
that we saw our first explosion in membership. So we
went from about five to six thousand, maybe ten thousand
numbers to well over one hundred thousand members by the
time Bernie was running his second campaign. And there's both
the Bernie Sanders bump, which we've seen another recent Zoron
bump where you see somebody who is a national figure
(13:51):
who's into Democratic Zoron Mundani from New York City. That's right,
he's the recent Democratic primary winner and he's currently running
for mayor of New York in the general election. Now,
those positive bumps are really really empowering, but there are
also negative upticks that are associated with Donald Trump winning.
(14:12):
And for the last two times Donald Trump has one,
we've seen a significant uptick in membership and it's directly
related to the Democratic Party's failure to take on fascism
meaningfully and to pose a significant obstacle to Trump's fascist
takeover of so many United States institutions. So the largest
(14:33):
wins that the Democratic Socialists have been involved in are
both organizing with unions like the UAW and the Electricians
Union nationally and workers that's correct, Yeah, United Auto Workers.
Sean Faine has been a great alley of the ally
of the DSA.
Speaker 1 (14:50):
I think I heard of that association for these conversations.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
And actually are we have some connections to the UAW
in Arizona as well. Yeah. But the other victories would
be candidates like Rashida Talib, who won out in Detroit
and is currently a US representative, one of the most
principled socialist representatives we can get, and she actually spoke
(15:15):
at the most recent DSA convention. It was genuinely deeply moving.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
I was going to ask, so, were there any like
national figures that our listeners might know about that spoke there,
and you mentioned.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Ra Yeah, Rashida Tlib spoke at this twenty twenty five convention,
And actually Zoron Mamdani spoke at the twenty twenty three
convention when he was just a New York State assemblyman
and it was, you know, really really moving and really
inspirational for me and for a lot of people. And
the one thing that he sort of identified as distinguishing
him from other electeds and other progressives even was that
(15:50):
he had that institutional backing of a national organization. So
when Cuomo was going around and trying to interrupt people's
work or trying to bring them onto his Zorn was
able to resist that because he didn't need Cuomo's money,
he didn't need quomo support to get elected. He had DSA.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Yeah, that's another thing too, And I don't know if
this is something that's true, but I did recall hearing
how funding was really what allowed or I guess a
lack of traditional funding and leaning into just kind of
(16:27):
community funding for these campaigns was what allowed these socialist ideas.
I don't like calling them socialist ideas because they feel
like human ideas. Yeah, you know, but these ideas to
breathe freely in the political space and the debate space.
And so is that something that is part and parcel
(16:48):
to the Democratic Socialist.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Of America one hund okay. And it's become so so
integral to so many of our campaigns that now we
have really effective fundraising strategies where you see Zorn recently
put out a video where he said, stop sending me money.
I've received all of the money I can take in
this race, but I still need volunteers. I still need
(17:13):
people to turn out, Like there are ways to get
involved that is not just donating money, although the money
is definitely and these grassroots movements that you first saw
or we first most recently saw with Bernie Sanders or
he really changed the game in terms of like taking
money from political action committees and super packs, which is
the main way that most politicians fund their campaigns is
(17:35):
they find a few incredibly wealthy individuals they go to
their special interest groups and then they have those individuals
put money into a political action committee which can then
make you know, donations without being nearly as accountable or
having nearly as much oversight. But what we got instead
of incredible billionaire power is we have incredible people power.
(17:56):
You know, we have a movement for socialism in America
and that is what has been funding both our campaigns
and our work with the unions and our work just
around the country. Everybody in DSA is able to or
asked to pay dues. I pay dues to National DSA.
I pay dues to the local dssay as well, And
there's a dues waiver that people can have. You don't
(18:18):
have to pay dues, and you can set your own dues.
But by contributing financially to the movement, you are empowering
it to continue growing in Ameru.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
And I would I would also add to that, in
my estimation, you're also protecting your independence from corporate interests
and non people based political influence. You know what I mean,
everything that I've I've seen about socialism, once I get
(18:52):
past like the first level of fear mongering, right, it
really does feel like all right, so this is what
makes the most sense for the most people. And whereas
capitalism is like, well, once there is money involved, people's
instinct is to compete for the money, right, And I
(19:16):
think socialism has a different take fundamentally on our nature
as human beings, and that is okay, we got to
take care of each other, So let's do the thing
that takes care of the most people. Now. Obviously, unfettered
capitalism can be very bad, and there are versions of
socialism where there's corruption and all that sort of stuff
(19:36):
that can be very bad. Same with community, same with
any governmental framework. But at its essence, one of them
expects human beings to compete with each other and the
other one expects human beings to cooperate with each other.
And for me, when I look at it, it feels like,
oh yeah, this cannot be as scary as people have
(19:56):
made it out to be. And often when they use
the worst examples of it to try to scare people
away from things like socialist programs, this is this is
a capitalist country, will stop. But socialist programs. When they
try to scare people away from that, and they use
the worst examples, I think that they're really cherry picking
and telling the worst version of the stories. And as
(20:19):
a person who has traveled haven't just researched it, I've
like seen countries where they're capitalist countries, but they have very,
very strong, certainly stronger than here in the US socialist programs,
and those countries when you look at like happiness index
and you know, rates of like poverty and that sort
(20:42):
of stuff. The countries that consistently beat the United States
by a long way all have a capitalistic framework with
robust socialist models to the point where it almost looks
like socialism. And so I wanted to make sure I
said that you have reflect on the course of it.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
I wou'd say, it's interesting that we sort of see
that happening so often, where you'll have a capitalist system
that has a failing and then a socialist program covers
it up. Then there's another failing and a socialist program
covers it up. What we have found, and what I
have found, is that capitalism is working as intended when
(21:21):
there are homeless people and breadlines and high prices and
people can't get their homes. Socialism when those things are happening,
is not functioning properly. And there is another change that
needs to happen. Socialism is not supposed to have those things.
And so when we see flawed socialist systems or flawed
implementation of socialist systems, it is sort of still establishing
(21:44):
that we are working towards a better world, whereas under
a capitalist system you get what you got. Yeah, and
that's sort of all it's going to be.
Speaker 1 (21:51):
If I may, I'd like to add something here, and
I'll get back to the rest of the questions. But
I have it in my notes notes of course. But
I remember reading about capitalism. This might have been five
years ago, and in a capitalistic framework, you cannot have
one hundred percent employment. It's not it doesn't lend itself
(22:16):
to a capitalistic framework. You need some unemployment to keep
wages low. And then you know, they're like dominoes. If
one of them falls in the whole system fall. So
to your point, you're always going to have unemployment in
a capitalistic model.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
You're also always going to have homelessness that you can
keep home prizes or housing price is high. You're always
going to have sick and addicted people because you need
to make it expensive to get healthcare, and you can't
do that if everybody already has this. My fiance is
preparing to go to medical school and one of the
classes she had to take was economics of healthcare and
(22:53):
while she was in right while she was in that program,
there was a question she got asked which was, if
you have what is the maximum like purchasing field for
how much? How many liver transplants can you sell? Basically
what's the question? And her response was you can sell
as many liver transplants as there are people on the
(23:17):
liver transplant transplant list. And she was told, un quoting,
you need to stop being so altruistic, which is just ridiculous.
You can't just sell liveris to people who don't need them.
And if there is a market for purchasing livers, then
that speaks to an entirely separate, dystopian issue. So capitalism
(23:37):
is built on inequality and it requires inequality to function properly,
whereas socialism is built to eliminate inequality.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
There it is there, It is so thank you for
saying that, because again I think that for people that
don't like end up splashing around in these waters here,
they just think that people like you are crazy and
people like me who are interested are also crazy and
(24:05):
we are just anti American or something like that. And
I think that the truth is that we see America
kind of reaching its potential in this version, in this
incarnation of itself, and now it's time for the next evolution.
And that's something that you are able to kind of
articulate in a masterful way. So I appreciate that. Let
(24:28):
me ask you one more question, and you can say
what you wanted to say, but I want to make
sure I get this question before we run out of
time here in terms of the dssay, given all the
things that are happening in the world right now, do
you believe that the DSA can be an effective organization
(24:48):
on the national level?
Speaker 2 (24:50):
And if so, how I absolutely do believe that DSA
can be an effective national organization, And it's going to
be through continuing to support the local work of chapters
who are addressing national issues like homelessness, fascism, addiction, and
housing prices. Those are things that DSA broadly unions as well,
and like workers' rights across the board, feminism, black are
(25:10):
black equality just generally, those are things that DSA can
support sure, and by being a powerful national organization and
having a consistent democratic process. We empower that work across
the board.
Speaker 1 (25:25):
Sure, and you know, one of the things that it's
certainly concerning. I use that word, and I should use
a heavier word, is to see how the current administration
is co opting the idea of inequality to suggest that
(25:51):
the people who have historically and still currently have all
of the power and all the control are somehow being
discriminated against. And the measures that have been put into
place to bring about more equitable, equitable goes and more
(26:11):
opportunities somehow is disadvantaging those who have historically and currently
still have the power, and somehow they're discriminatory in nature.
It feels crazy for us, and so I can only
imagine how that might feel to an organization whose whole
point is to try to make sure that opportunities are
(26:35):
available to everyone and that the society is navigable by
all folks and no one is left behind. And I
know that this is kind of a fantasy, because there's
no perfect society, but I guess the push is something
that I would imagine that you're wrestling with. But I
(26:56):
applaud your efforts, and again I appreciate the conversation
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