June 23, 2021 • 38 mins
Recent polls show there is a political and religious divide in the desire to get vaccinated against COVID-19. But why? In this final episode of the series, we hear from some folks who can help answer that question, as well as providing further facts and nuance to the conversation. Pastor Jared Cornutt of Irving, TX, breaks down some of the theological arguments for getting vaccinated; then, host Robin Roberts sits down with Dr. Francis Collins, director of the National Institutes of Health. A person of faith himself, Dr. Collins is known for his ability to speak about science to both sides of the aisle. Ultimately, both conversations reveal that what seems to be a political divide isn't always politically motivated. Tune in for tips on how to have effective conversations about the COVID-19 vaccines, and to get some of your own questions about the vaccines answered, too.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to COVID nineteen Immunity in Our Community. Before we
kick off the show, here's the latest COVID nineteen vaccination
news at the time of this recording on Monday June.
At the start of this week, nearly three eighteen million
vaccines have been administered in the US. Over half of
Americans over twelve years of age are now fully vaccinated.
(00:22):
The CDC recently updated mask guidelines. Fully vaccinated individuals can
resume activities without wearing a mask or physically distancing you
are fully vaccinated two weeks after your final dose. That's
it for now. Enjoy the show. Well, hello there, I'm
Robin Roberts of ABC's Good Morning America. How are you doing.
(00:45):
Welcome to COVID nineteen Immunity in Our Community. Brought to
you by the U S Department of Health and Human Services.
COVID nineteen Immunity in Our Community has been created to
(01:06):
provide you with the groundbreaking science, honest facts, unvarnished truth
about the deadly coronavirus and the revolutionary vaccines that could
put this pandemic behind us and bring back a bit
of normalcy for all of us. The desire, though still
not vaccinated against COVID nineteen is largely split along partisan lines. Now,
(01:29):
hear me out here, because an April survey conducted on
behalf of the h h S found that only fifty
two of ideological conservatives said they were ready to get
a COVID nineteen vaccine. Now that's compared to of liberals. Now,
that same survey found that twenty of conservatives reported they
(01:50):
didn't want to get a COVID vaccine at all. Well,
only six percent of liberals said they don't want one.
Vaccines are vital preventive care. What may be causing this
ideological divide and vaccination rates, and what can all of
us do to bring the country together. So glad you asked,
we're going to try to answer that question today. We
(02:20):
see similar lower confidence rates among conservatives in many faith
based groups, including the evangelical community as well. Many people
in the religious community who are still hesitant to get
vaccinated often turned to religious leaders for guidance, and that
is why we sat down with pastor Jared Cornett, based
(02:41):
in Irving, Texas. He reflects on some of the conversations
he's had with members of his church community about the
safety and efficacy of the COVID nineteen vaccines. He broke
down some of the theological arguments for getting vaccinated. Then
I spoke with Dr Francis Collins, to Rector of the
National Institutes of Health. Dr Collins has been praised for
(03:04):
his ability to speak about science to get this both
sides of the aisle, which isn't often easy to do.
He spoke about how we can start to address this
partisan gap from both ideological and theological angles. Pastor Jared
(03:30):
Cornett's four person congregation is largely made up of conservatives,
but everyone in the church has a unique perspective. Many
of them have their own questions about the COVID nineteen
vaccines like many folks do, and during the pandemic, Pastor
Cornett took a variety of safety measures for his church,
including limiting church capacity, offering virtual services, and requiring masks. Ultimately,
(03:56):
the members of his church trusted him to make the
right decision, as many people of faith trust their own
community leaders now. When the COVID nineteen vaccines were authorized,
some people came to Past your Corner for theological answers
to the questions they had. Though he cites biblical reasons
for taking COVID nineteen precautions. He also reminds hesitant folks
(04:18):
to trust science and trust doctors. Pastor cornet story shows
that people have a diverse set of reasons for their hesitancy.
Here he is now to share his experience. So a
(04:39):
lot of times when people maybe they're against mask or
there against a vaccine, if I'm going to come about
it from a biblical perspective, the story of the Give
Samaritan comes along caring for somebody who is vulnerable. I mean,
and we've seen that the story to Give Samaritan, and
we that's really the story of Scripture as well. Jesus
comes to those who were in need. So I think
those are good perspectives to come about stories like that.
(05:00):
The Old Testament teachers that were to love our neighbors,
the old tests of the New Testament teachers the same
thing that we are to love our neighbor. And Jesus says,
who is my neighbor? And everyone is our neighbor. So
it doesn't matter if you believe like I believe, I
still so still love you. And so I always tell
people when it comes to wearing a mask or if
you're choosing to do the vaccine or not to the vaccine.
Remember that what we do and how we say things
(05:22):
shows how we feel about others. And I think my church,
I would say, of our people are vaccinated, if I
had to guess, Um, that's just me guessing based off
of our congregation, and I think a lot of them
would say, I want to protect people around us. And
I know some of our younger folks who have been
vaccinated have said, we worship with people in their seventies
and eighties, and the last thing that I could ever
(05:44):
want what the last thing I ever want to do
is to come in with the virus and maybe be
asythematic and spread it to someone. So I'm going to
get vaccinated. I'm going to wear a mask because I
care about the people around me, and I think by
and large, evangelicals want to do that. I think Evangelica's
want to love their neighbors, they want to protect people,
They care about people, and so I would point them
to the you know scripture life that from the Old Testament,
(06:07):
the New Testament, where Jesus and where God and y'all
wa in the Old Testament clearly points out to us
that we are to love one another and that we're
supposed to love people as Christ loved us, and Christ
loved us by sacrificing himself. So if my sacrifice is
wearing a mask, that's not a huge sacrifice. And for
the vaccine again, you know, if you consult with your
(06:27):
doctor and that's something you think you need to do,
I don't think that's a huge thing for someone to
do as well. And so I think a lot of
people have a hard time being anti vaccine and against mask.
From a theological perspective, I think it's a spiritual perspective,
but I don't think it's rooted in the Bible. I
think it's rooted outside of the Bible where a lot
of people get their hesitations. In addition to offering spiritual
(06:50):
advice when he can, Pastor Cornet reminds the members of
his church to consult with their doctors when they have
medical questions. There's been a couple of people have asked
on about different lives one people, especially evangelicals, A lot
of them they trust their pastors. They're no ask their
pastor questions and I always tell them I'm not a doctor.
So what you need to do is talk to your
(07:10):
doctor and figure out what the best course of action
is for you, just like I go to my doctor,
and I do that for my life. I don't go
to my doctor to ask deep spiritual or theological questions.
I seek medical advice. So that's what we've always encouraged
our church to do. But for some there's this question
of ethics. You know, was this vaccine when they were
doing trials were or when they were developing it? Rather
(07:32):
did they use aborded fetal tissues for example? And so
I did some research on that, I did some reading,
I lean on that. I asked some doctors, and from
what I found that wasn't done. So that ethical question
that people come and ask, I've been able to answer
that and said, you know, I can't tell you what
you need to do for your body, but if you
are having the only reservation is ethics, I think ethnically
(07:53):
you can do this thing. Some people have I asked,
you know, is this a sign of the end times?
You know, this is the mark of the beast of
that scene card And you can't buy, you can't travel,
you can't sell. And there's a lot of different interpretations
on the Book of Revelation, and this really I haven't
seen this really in my church. I've seen this more
in large online and some Facebook groups I'm a part
of that are predominantly Southern Baptist, and uh, you know,
(08:16):
there's all kinds of different views within the times, and
some people believe that that's not my interpretation of what
the mark of the beast is or what uh the
vaccine is in general. Some people just have a hessians
towards it. But when it comes from a theological perspective
or an ethnic perspective, I've been able to answer that
and kind of put their minds at ease. I can't
tell you what to do medically for you, but ethnically,
(08:38):
I think you can do this. Theologically. No, I don't
believe this is you selling your soul to the devil
or anything like that. And here's why I kind of
walked through the Bible and why I see it that way.
Pastor Cornet has found in discussions with members of his
church community that their reasons for vaccine hesitancy aren't usually political.
(09:00):
That means coming at the conversation with the political angle
will not resonate well. So people are not coming to
with political concerns, you know, whether they voted for Trump
or not. I I think they realized that, you know, Trump
had operational warp speed. But it's not really political. Again,
I think it's spiritual. When when you say evangelical, it's
such a broad brush like so they're Baptist, is very
(09:22):
different than a lot of our Pentecostal groups, and Pentecostals
are the largest group of evangelicals, and I think a
lot of times what it comes from with them is
we could pray these things away. And we see this
with other things. You can just pray, if you pray enough,
you won't get it. I've seen that said on TV.
They won't. That's not really how viruses where king God's
protect you from that. Yes, but you can still give
(09:42):
the virus. I think a lot of people in Christian
theom would say, well, God has given us vitamins and
things of this earth. We don't need medical treatment. We
need the things of the earth that God's already given
us to treat ourselves. Well. God has also given us
doctors and scientists and things like that. And so I
don't think it's really political. I think it's this kind
of this other worldly spiritual element to it that they
(10:02):
feel like they have take on. But there is certainly
a political side of it. I just don't really see
that large in my context, though everyone's experience is unique.
Pastor Corny had some advice for approaching conversations with vaccine
hesitant people like those in his congregation. What I would
say to Christians who are asking questions about the vaccine,
(10:24):
and every context is different, is that remember that every
good gift comes from God, and there's this idea of
common grace that God gives all people with. And I
believe that that doctors and medical expertise is one of
those things that God has given us. We're making headway
with cancer treatment. We have vaccines today to prevent polio
and things like that, and so in the midst of
the pandemic, instead of being skeptical always, I'm not saying
(10:47):
you shouldn't ask questions. You absolutely should. You should consult
your doctor about putting something in your body. I do
believe that, and I believe that you should pray and
make decisions based off of that too, which you find
in scripture. But I've only that God has gifted as
doctors and medical experts, and it's a sign of his
grace that in the medici of a pandemic where six
thousand Americans have died, where millions have died across the world,
(11:10):
that perhaps this is something good that he has given
us to treat us with this. So consult your doctor,
taught to experts. Don't rely to you know, two blogs,
or what you filter with what you read in the
newspaper or what you were watching the news, because everything
is slanted. I think that most people would say that
there's a slant on whatever you watch. Instead, trust your doctor,
your doctors, your doctor for a reason, and if you
(11:32):
have ethical or theological questions, go ask your pastor about
it and lean on him. And then you just have
to make a decision based on who you're around, who
you um are interacting with, what you're going and doing,
if you need to do that or not. And then
I would just always, like I've told some people have
sat in my office who have questioned masks and things
like that, could you live with yourself if you spread
(11:53):
this to somebody else and it did take their life.
I know that I couldn't. That's why I wear a
mask till this day. You know, Texas is very open,
but every Sunday you can see me right on the
front point part Batist church and irving wearing a mask
until I get up to preach, where distance from everybody,
And that's what I would tell him. Pastor Jared Cornett's
(12:16):
experience demonstrates that what seems to be a political divide
isn't necessarily politically or ideologically motivated, So we should listen
carefully to everyone's unique questions and concerns. Pastor Cornet's faith
contributes to his trust in science and the COVID nineteen vaccines,
(12:37):
and the same as also true of our next guest,
Dr Francis Collins. Dr Collins is Director of the National
Institutes of Health or n i H, a role he
has retained across multiple presidential administrations. He's a physician and
geneticist who led a massive project you might have heard of,
the Human Genome Project. Now he receives a diverse body
(13:01):
of research as NIH director and Dr Collins he's a
great guy and he's a person of faith himself. This
and his incredible ability to discuss science with all people
across the political spectrum make him uniquely qualified to talk
about these issues surrounding the COVID nineteen vaccines. I had
(13:23):
a great time sitting down with Dr Collins to discuss
why he trusts the COVID nineteen vaccines and the importance
of listening, not lecturing, listening when it comes to talking
about those vaccines. He also is more than happy to
talk about his faith and how it plays into his
trust in science. Dr Collins, I don't have to tell
(13:46):
you issues become politicized and coronavirus COVID nineteen no exception,
and holing available in early May shows that about ten
percent fewer conservatives than the total popularity shouldn't have started
the vaccination process. And although the percentage of those who
say they will never get the vaccine it's dropping a
(14:08):
still higher than any other demographic. Um. Why do you
think that is, sir? Well, First of all, let me
say I am not a political animal, in case anybody's
worried that I'm bringing some kind of perspective of that sort. Um.
I've been the NAGED director now for twelve years. I
was appointed by President Obama, i was retained in this
(14:29):
job by President Trump, and now I've been retained again
by President Biden. So if there's any indication here that
I am particularly aligned with any of those political movements,
I hope that helps straighten it out. Why is it
then that one's political party seems to play such an
important role in decisions about whether or not to be
(14:50):
vaccinated or frankly, whether to wear a mask. I think, frankly,
it's kind of a sad tale about how country has
become so polarized on almost every thing. And this is
another example. I think conservatives are, by their nature perhaps
more likely to be skeptical when the government tells you
(15:10):
to do something. Conservatives in government ought to kind of
stay in its place, and maybe they see this instance
as an example where they're being asked by governors or
presidents or mayors to take actions that invades their own
sort of liberty. But you know what, that doesn't really
fit this situation. We're talking about the worst pandemic in
(15:33):
a hundred and three years. It is killed close to
six hundred thousand people in the United States alone, and
we have a means of ending it with a highly
effective and safe vaccine. So it's too bad political considerations
or a sense of liberty invasions are getting in the
way of what just good common sense would say, Roll
(15:54):
up your sleeve and let's get this. And that's what
people come back to common sense. And I'm glad thank
you for laying out everything your background, because I want
people to hear this conversation and not feel that it's
geared one way or the other. It's truly giving people,
all people the accurate information so they can make decisions
(16:17):
on their own. But we have found and the reason
why in this particular episode we're talking about how it's
being politicized, because as you said, there is a solution
to this long problem that we have and until we
can it's not about converting. It's about convincing with facts.
Not trying to convert anybody, but convince people with facts.
(16:40):
The groups that are resistant to becoming vaccinated, they say
it's it centers on safety and long term side effects.
What is your message to assure them, Well, it's totally
appropriate to ask those questions. First of all, I really
am worried that sometimes people like me come across as
lecturing instead of list senning. So I've tried to do
(17:01):
a lot of listening robin to what people's concerns are.
And yeah, these vaccines just approved by the Food and
Drug Administration for emergency use in December. That means we
haven't had decades of experience, so people will want to know, Okay,
what's the data here to say, first of all, do
these work well? These actually protect me? And second of all,
(17:23):
is there anything hiding there that might be an adverse
event that I'd want to know about. I think the
data that one can point to is pretty convincing. All
of these vaccines that FDA has approved in the US
have gone through trials of at least thirty thousand people.
That's substantially larger than the usual vaccine trial. Those are
(17:45):
situations where half the people got the vaccine and half
got a shot, but it was actually a dummy and
they didn't know which they got. That's the only way
you can really assess. Then what is the effectiveness? And
are there side effects? Because some pople are going to
have something happen that has nothing to do with their shot,
and you want to see is there a cause and effect?
(18:06):
And the results are really remarkable for all three of
the vaccines that have been approved. Now people may say, well, yeah,
but we only have a few months of experience, but
we have more than that because the trials started last
summer in July, so there are people walking around who
have been immunized now for going on close to a year,
(18:26):
and we are not seeing that they are encountering any
adverse events at all. From experience with other vaccines, if
there's going to be an unexpected side effect, it almost
invariably happens in the first two months, actually usually even
sooner than that. So f DA in general looks at
those first two months and if you don't see something there,
and they're gonna say, this looks like a safe vaccine.
(18:49):
And I think we can lean on that experience as
well and say we're in a really good shape with
the in terms of being safe for all those who
need them. And you know, I'm so glad that people
are are speaking up. We know that their questions out there,
and we welcome them. I think sometimes people feel that
because they're raising their hand or they're they're concerned that
(19:12):
they're put into a certain group, and it's saying no, no, no, no,
it's okay, and and what what needs to be done
to close this vaccination gap between primarily conservatives and the
rest of the country. Do you think, Dr Collins, I
think conversations like this where we get away from rumors
and other sort of unnamed anxieties that maybe aren't really
(19:35):
gonna be sustainable once you have access to the data
and an appreciation just about why this is for the
individual potentially life saving and for and for our whole
community also a really important thing. There are certainly people
who say, you know, I've seen this disease spread across
the country. I had a few friends who got COVID,
(19:57):
they got better. What's the big deal. If I happen
to get it, well, I'll be fine. You can't always
say that. There are plenty of young people who got
COVID who didn't do fine. You know, Romen, there three
children who have died of COVID. We say that children
are really not ones to worry about. That's true most
of the time, but not all the time. When you
(20:18):
turn down the chance for protection, you are putting yourself
at risk, regardless of who you are. Obviously more so
if you're older or if you have some medical condition,
but nobody is immune to the risk here of a
bad outcome. Another issue, location, location location, Dr Collins and
(20:39):
polls show higher vaccine hesitancy rates in rural areas with
higher conservative populations, so the COVID nineteam poses higher risk
in areas that are less densely populated. Is it is
it for for people saying, Hey, that's that's for the
big cities. That's not that's not where I live out
in the country. Well, there might be a slight tendency
(21:02):
for the virus to have less impact in rural communities
because people are not as likely to be closely packed
together where it can be transmitted. But think back to
things that have happened over the last sixteen months. Where
were the places where the disease was particularly rampant. Uh,
it was in the Dakotas. Most recently, it was Michigan,
(21:25):
where I have family up there in the Thumb of Michigan,
which is mostly rural area, and yet there were lots
and lots of affected individuals and people who died. So yeah,
I kind of see. Maybe if you're in a rural
community it doesn't seem quite so important. But you should
never imagine that somehow that means the virus is gonna
skip over you. It's just looking for humans and it
(21:46):
will find them. Yeah, it does not discriminate in any
kind of way. We should stop a second here, Robin
and recognize how amazing it is that the scientific community
faced with the worst pandemic in a hundred and three years,
absolutely got all hands on deck work seven, came up
with these strategies to sort of cut away some of
(22:08):
the dead times that normally afflict projects like building a vaccine,
and came up with this amazing outcome where we can
have this conversation today about whether people should decide to
take a safe and effective vaccine as opposed to well,
why do we have to wait another couple of years
for any vaccines to appear, which would have been the
normal timetable. Let's talk a little bit more about that.
(22:30):
Dr Collins, You're onto something there, because that's so true,
and I have to meet two When they were first
talking about a vaccine, I was like, whoa, Well, well
wait a minute now. If history serves me right here,
it takes years before. So when it did come out
faster than it had in the past. But then when
I did my homework, as we're helping people to do,
(22:52):
I didn't realize how much work had already gone into
this before. And so can you explain to people again
the reason why these vaccines were able to get out
to the public and record speed. Well, we had worked
for twenty five years to try to develop this new
(23:13):
very rapid approach to vaccine development called mRNA Messenger RNA,
and this was the work of various scientists, mostly in
the US, trying to figure out whether you could actually
get the immune system to make anybodies against a viral
protein even more efficiently if you use the instructions for
(23:35):
that protein instead of the protein itself. That's basically what
messenger RNA is. It just a little instruction book. You
stick it into a muscle cell and you tell the
muscle cell make that spike protein on the surface of
that nasty coronavirus, and the muscle cell goes, yeah, I
know how to do that, and it happens very quickly,
and then the immune system sees it and makes the
antibodies and you're immunized. And because it's so speedy, all
(23:59):
you have to really know is the letters of the
code of that virus and you can start designing the vaccine,
which is exactly what happened about two yards from where
I am right now in the Vaccine Research Center at
NIH on January when the letters of the code of
that stars Kobe two virus got posted on the internet
(24:20):
and within forty eight hours, they had designed the vaccine,
and within sixty days the first patients were being injected
as part of the Phase one trial. That is like
light year, is faster than it has ever been possible.
But because this technology had been developed and optimized over
years and years actually working on stars and working on merrs,
(24:41):
then it was all ready to go. The other thing
that we ought to mention is it's one thing to
have a great start to the vaccine effort, but then
you've got to scale up to big trials eventually thirty
thousand people. Usually that takes you a heck of a
long time. You gotta organize this, you've got to write
the protocol, get all the used and find the money,
(25:01):
and so years go by. Because of Operation Warp Speed,
which was a really important effort in the Trump administration,
all of those things got thought about right from the beginning,
so we would have clarity about how you went from
that first phase one trial to ultimately the definitive trial,
and also how you would make sure that if the
vaccine actually worked, that you were already making doses of
(25:24):
it that you could start giving to people. All of
that had to be thought through, and that's why it
felt like it went really fast, but it was fast
for smart reasons. And Okay, maybe warp speed was not
the best term to use for this because it made
people think like, oh, a bunch of cowboys, they're going
too fast. But I don't think you wanted us to
(25:45):
do operations slow boat when people were dying. So it
was a good thing to be really careful about the planning,
finding the resources, skipping over the dead times that normally
vex this process. That's what we did during this course
of the conversation. Even if we change one person's mind,
convinced them with these facts, not again, not trying to convert,
(26:08):
but convinced. And then they say, okay, but I have
a family member. Do you have any insider or already
tips and how if you have a conservative family member
that you could have a conversation with them like this.
What I do think is that family members sometimes are
the most effective advocates for people rethinking their position. It's
(26:31):
one thing for you know, me government employee, who has assumed,
of course to be on the side of vaccines naturally
because we helped make them. But if it's your spouse,
or your brother or sister, or your son or daughter
who said, you know, I've really looked at this and
I think this is something that you ought to consider.
Let me tell you why that may get more attention.
(26:53):
And if it's your clergyman, or it's your doctor recognized,
plus of clergy have gotten backcinated, plus of doctors have
gotten vaccinated. That tells you something about what they think
of this, and I think most of them are willing
to talk about that. Another thing, though, you know, I
think we're missing one of the really important point about
(27:14):
the importance of vaccination. Going beyond that it is a
benefit to yourself in terms of preventing a terrible illness,
it's also part of your opportunity and maybe responsibility to
your community to try to create this blanket of immune
protection over all of us. And you don't get there
(27:34):
until most people are immunized. It's called herd immunity, which
is a terrible term. But the idea is the virus
is going to fade away if there aren't very many
people around anymore that it can infect. We know that
is how it works, and think of this. I have
a friend who has leukemia, UM. I have another friend
who is a kidney transplant. Both of them have gotten vaccinated,
(27:58):
and both of them failed to raise is any antibodies.
Because their immune systems are affected in one case by
chemotherapy and another by immunotherapy for avoiding transplant rejection, they
are vulnerable. They're the ones I worry about most at
night in terms of what might happen if they got
exposed to this virus. They're only real means of protection. Besides,
(28:22):
you know, hiding away, which they have been doing, is
for the rest of us to get immune so that
we aren't going to be the vectors to pass that
virus to them and ultimately take their lives. And I
think most of us really do have this sense of
concern about our community and about vulnerable people, no matter
whether you're conservative or liberal, no matter whether you're a
(28:42):
believer or not. This is sort of one of our
human qualities that we do try to do things to
try to help those who are in the greatest and
most vulnerable kind of position. And here's a chance to
do that. And to miss that also is to miss
a pretty important argument about why this does seem to
be something that falls on all of our shoulders. You know,
(29:05):
Dr Collins, you almost brought tears to my eyes because um,
having gone through cancer twice, and I yes, and my
um immune system is not as robust as it should
be for somebody who's sixty years old. This is your
cue to say you don't sound or look like you're
sixty rights. But I have to say, I took precautions.
(29:30):
But my team around me, my team around me. Did
you know each of us have a pod, UM, George Stephanopoulos, UM,
Michael Strahan All of us have a team. And my
team was the only one that did not go through COVID.
Thankfully they were okay, but my pod was the only one.
And I really appreciate that they knew how vulnerable I
(29:55):
would be. And I find myself now that I'm fully vaccinated,
I stare wear my mask when I'm out because I
don't know others who might be vulnerable. I'm protected, but
I also want to protect them. Who are you O?
We're getting me to cry, do Collins? Um? But serious issues.
I'm glad we can talk about them, and we need to,
and people need to. We need to get outside of
(30:16):
our ourselves. But you brought up a very good point,
my friend, when you mentioned clergy and poles show higher
vaccine hesitancy rates among evangelical Christians. You are a person
of faith, I am as well. How would you approach
that conversation with a vaccine skeptical Christian. Well, I'm trying
(30:37):
to do a lot of that because I am an
evangelical Christian. I was an atheist in my twenties and
became converted to Christianity as a medical student, and it
is the most important part of my life in terms
of how I evaluate everything around me and how I
pray for some kind of relief when terrible things are happening.
(30:57):
So I think I know what believers are wrestling with here,
and again, the most important thing is to be listening,
because skeptics who happen to be believers have different reasons
for being skeptical. Some of them have, I'm sorry to say,
been caught up in some of the conspiracy theories that
are so widely spread on social media. But some of
them I think are caught in this dilemma that they
(31:22):
are people who trust in God as I do, and
they have prayed to God to protect them and their
family from COVID nineteen. If they accept the vaccine, does
that mean they didn't really quite trust God. After all,
I've heard this many times. And yet when you step
back from that, you can kind of see, wait a minute,
(31:44):
there's something not quite falling together here. Because, after all,
if you're a believer and you see science as God's gift,
as I do, our ability to understand creation which has
been given to us by God Almighty, and to figure
out how it were, and to use that information to
develop something that's going to save somebody's life. That is
(32:06):
god answering prayer. That's not some separate pathway. That is
right in the middle of that hope that our prayers
are gonna save us. And here it comes, So embrace
it and give thanks. It's a gift, but you've got
to unwrap the gift, which means rolling up your sleeve.
Otherwise it just sits there. So that's one thing as
(32:28):
well as sort of overarching it a bit of not
great history here between faith and science that people of
faith tend to think that scientists are mostly ass So
I guess I'm the contract example there. Uh, And frankly
of scientists are believers. That surprises people, But that's the case.
(32:51):
And again, this is one of my passions, Robin, is
we have such opportunities to bring people of faith and
people of science together to have really interesting conversations about
how all of this provides insight into God's mind. And
yet we haven't gotten as far with that maybe in
this country as we might, and people are interested. Can
go and look at this website called bio Logos, which
(33:13):
is a great place to engage in those conversations and
reassure yourself that science is not opposed to faith. Science
shines a wonderful new set of prism lights on faith
and vice versa. It's a wonderful harmonization that's possible there.
When you talk, you're usually repeating something that you already know,
but when you listen you might learn something new. And
(33:37):
I have certainly been learning something new listening to you,
Dr Francis Collins. Uh your spirit and the way that
you are able to convey information and facts to help
increase vaccine confidence. So grateful to you, Dr Collins. Thank you,
Thank you. Robin. You know I do read my Bible
(33:57):
every morning, and this morning and once again I was
reading Psalm forty because I keep going back to it.
God is our refuge and strength and ever present help
in trouble. I think. The help in this case is
coming for us through science, and the help is called vaccines,
and God is right in that. So please people who
have somehow decided that this doesn't apply to you, Look again,
(34:22):
there are good answers to questions. Go to Google, type
in we can do this, and it will take you
to that site of the COVID Community Core, where hundreds
of organizations and churches and civic organizations and physicians organizations
have all gotten together to provide the kind of answers
you might be looking for. There are answers. Just let's
go and look and then roll up your sleep. Wow.
(34:58):
Dr Collins, he really makes you think. Because though there
appears to be a political divide in those holding out
on the COVID nineteen vaccine so far, it's clear that
the reasons for vaccine hesitancy are unique to every individual,
no matter where they stand on the political spectrum. If
(35:19):
you have questions yourself, learning about the science behind the vaccines,
talking to your doctor, and even studying the theological reasons
for getting vaccinated can help alleviate your concerns. And if
there are hesitant people in your life, listen carefully for
their questions, dealt with compassion. With open, honest discussions, the
(35:41):
whole intent of this podcast series. We can mend this
divide and move forward from the COVID nineteen pandemic. Isn't
that what we all want? To get vaccinated? Go to
(36:03):
vaccine dot gov and click find COVID nineteen vaccines. The
site will help you determine where you can get the
vaccine and how to make an appointment. Now you don't
have to worry about paying for your vaccine. Your taxpayer
dollars are funding the rollout, so there's no individual cost
to you. So if someone asks you to provide your
(36:25):
insurance information, that's only so your vaccination provider can build
your insurance for the administrative costs, but you will not
be personally responsible for any expenses. I'd like to thank
our guests. Thank you Pastor Jared Cornett and Dr Francis
Collins for sharing your thoughts and expertise with us today,
(36:46):
and you know what, thank you for listening. COVID nineteen
Immunity in Our Community was developed and paid for by
the U. S Department of Health and Human Services, part
(37:08):
of a public education campaign to increase public confidence in
COVID nineteen vaccines. While reinforcing basic prevention measures. We can
do This, Presented by I Heart Radio and ABC News.
This podcast is hosted by me Robin Roberts. The episode
was executive produced Ethan Fixal with production by Wonder Media Network.
(37:33):
It was written, engineered, and edited by Edie Aller to
Triple Threat, with research assistance from Alessandra Tajta, with original
theme music by Brad Kemp. If you haven't already subscribed,
rate it or reviewed COVID nineteen immunity in our Community,
what are you waiting for? Please do so on the
I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get
(37:58):
your podcasts. I am Robin Roberts and this is COVID
nineteen immunity in our community. We could do this. Thank
you for listening. H
Welcome to COVID nineteen Immunity in Our Community. Before we
kick off the show, here's the latest COVID nineteen vaccination
news at the time of this recording on Monday June.
At the start of this week, nearly three eighteen million
vaccines have been administered in the US. Over half of
Americans over twelve years of age are now fully vaccinated.
(00:22):
The CDC recently updated mask guidelines. Fully vaccinated individuals can
resume activities without wearing a mask or physically distancing you
are fully vaccinated two weeks after your final dose. That's
it for now. Enjoy the show. Well, hello there, I'm
Robin Roberts of ABC's Good Morning America. How are you doing.
(00:45):
Welcome to COVID nineteen Immunity in Our Community. Brought to
you by the U S Department of Health and Human Services.
COVID nineteen Immunity in Our Community has been created to
(01:06):
provide you with the groundbreaking science, honest facts, unvarnished truth
about the deadly coronavirus and the revolutionary vaccines that could
put this pandemic behind us and bring back a bit
of normalcy for all of us. The desire, though still
not vaccinated against COVID nineteen is largely split along partisan lines. Now,
(01:29):
hear me out here, because an April survey conducted on
behalf of the h h S found that only fifty
two of ideological conservatives said they were ready to get
a COVID nineteen vaccine. Now that's compared to of liberals. Now,
that same survey found that twenty of conservatives reported they
(01:50):
didn't want to get a COVID vaccine at all. Well,
only six percent of liberals said they don't want one.
Vaccines are vital preventive care. What may be causing this
ideological divide and vaccination rates, and what can all of
us do to bring the country together. So glad you asked,
we're going to try to answer that question today. We
(02:20):
see similar lower confidence rates among conservatives in many faith
based groups, including the evangelical community as well. Many people
in the religious community who are still hesitant to get
vaccinated often turned to religious leaders for guidance, and that
is why we sat down with pastor Jared Cornett, based
(02:41):
in Irving, Texas. He reflects on some of the conversations
he's had with members of his church community about the
safety and efficacy of the COVID nineteen vaccines. He broke
down some of the theological arguments for getting vaccinated. Then
I spoke with Dr Francis Collins, to Rector of the
National Institutes of Health. Dr Collins has been praised for
(03:04):
his ability to speak about science to get this both
sides of the aisle, which isn't often easy to do.
He spoke about how we can start to address this
partisan gap from both ideological and theological angles. Pastor Jared
(03:30):
Cornett's four person congregation is largely made up of conservatives,
but everyone in the church has a unique perspective. Many
of them have their own questions about the COVID nineteen
vaccines like many folks do, and during the pandemic, Pastor
Cornett took a variety of safety measures for his church,
including limiting church capacity, offering virtual services, and requiring masks. Ultimately,
(03:56):
the members of his church trusted him to make the
right decision, as many people of faith trust their own
community leaders now. When the COVID nineteen vaccines were authorized,
some people came to Past your Corner for theological answers
to the questions they had. Though he cites biblical reasons
for taking COVID nineteen precautions. He also reminds hesitant folks
(04:18):
to trust science and trust doctors. Pastor cornet story shows
that people have a diverse set of reasons for their hesitancy.
Here he is now to share his experience. So a
(04:39):
lot of times when people maybe they're against mask or
there against a vaccine, if I'm going to come about
it from a biblical perspective, the story of the Give
Samaritan comes along caring for somebody who is vulnerable. I mean,
and we've seen that the story to Give Samaritan, and
we that's really the story of Scripture as well. Jesus
comes to those who were in need. So I think
those are good perspectives to come about stories like that.
(05:00):
The Old Testament teachers that were to love our neighbors,
the old tests of the New Testament teachers the same
thing that we are to love our neighbor. And Jesus says,
who is my neighbor? And everyone is our neighbor. So
it doesn't matter if you believe like I believe, I
still so still love you. And so I always tell
people when it comes to wearing a mask or if
you're choosing to do the vaccine or not to the vaccine.
Remember that what we do and how we say things
(05:22):
shows how we feel about others. And I think my church,
I would say, of our people are vaccinated, if I
had to guess, Um, that's just me guessing based off
of our congregation, and I think a lot of them
would say, I want to protect people around us. And
I know some of our younger folks who have been
vaccinated have said, we worship with people in their seventies
and eighties, and the last thing that I could ever
(05:44):
want what the last thing I ever want to do
is to come in with the virus and maybe be
asythematic and spread it to someone. So I'm going to
get vaccinated. I'm going to wear a mask because I
care about the people around me, and I think by
and large, evangelicals want to do that. I think Evangelica's
want to love their neighbors, they want to protect people,
They care about people, and so I would point them
to the you know scripture life that from the Old Testament,
(06:07):
the New Testament, where Jesus and where God and y'all
wa in the Old Testament clearly points out to us
that we are to love one another and that we're
supposed to love people as Christ loved us, and Christ
loved us by sacrificing himself. So if my sacrifice is
wearing a mask, that's not a huge sacrifice. And for
the vaccine again, you know, if you consult with your
(06:27):
doctor and that's something you think you need to do,
I don't think that's a huge thing for someone to
do as well. And so I think a lot of
people have a hard time being anti vaccine and against mask.
From a theological perspective, I think it's a spiritual perspective,
but I don't think it's rooted in the Bible. I
think it's rooted outside of the Bible where a lot
of people get their hesitations. In addition to offering spiritual
(06:50):
advice when he can, Pastor Cornet reminds the members of
his church to consult with their doctors when they have
medical questions. There's been a couple of people have asked
on about different lives one people, especially evangelicals, A lot
of them they trust their pastors. They're no ask their
pastor questions and I always tell them I'm not a doctor.
So what you need to do is talk to your
(07:10):
doctor and figure out what the best course of action
is for you, just like I go to my doctor,
and I do that for my life. I don't go
to my doctor to ask deep spiritual or theological questions.
I seek medical advice. So that's what we've always encouraged
our church to do. But for some there's this question
of ethics. You know, was this vaccine when they were
doing trials were or when they were developing it? Rather
(07:32):
did they use aborded fetal tissues for example? And so
I did some research on that, I did some reading,
I lean on that. I asked some doctors, and from
what I found that wasn't done. So that ethical question
that people come and ask, I've been able to answer
that and said, you know, I can't tell you what
you need to do for your body, but if you
are having the only reservation is ethics, I think ethnically
(07:53):
you can do this thing. Some people have I asked,
you know, is this a sign of the end times?
You know, this is the mark of the beast of
that scene card And you can't buy, you can't travel,
you can't sell. And there's a lot of different interpretations
on the Book of Revelation, and this really I haven't
seen this really in my church. I've seen this more
in large online and some Facebook groups I'm a part
of that are predominantly Southern Baptist, and uh, you know,
(08:16):
there's all kinds of different views within the times, and
some people believe that that's not my interpretation of what
the mark of the beast is or what uh the
vaccine is in general. Some people just have a hessians
towards it. But when it comes from a theological perspective
or an ethnic perspective, I've been able to answer that
and kind of put their minds at ease. I can't
tell you what to do medically for you, but ethnically,
(08:38):
I think you can do this. Theologically. No, I don't
believe this is you selling your soul to the devil
or anything like that. And here's why I kind of
walked through the Bible and why I see it that way.
Pastor Cornet has found in discussions with members of his
church community that their reasons for vaccine hesitancy aren't usually political.
(09:00):
That means coming at the conversation with the political angle
will not resonate well. So people are not coming to
with political concerns, you know, whether they voted for Trump
or not. I I think they realized that, you know, Trump
had operational warp speed. But it's not really political. Again,
I think it's spiritual. When when you say evangelical, it's
such a broad brush like so they're Baptist, is very
(09:22):
different than a lot of our Pentecostal groups, and Pentecostals
are the largest group of evangelicals, and I think a
lot of times what it comes from with them is
we could pray these things away. And we see this
with other things. You can just pray, if you pray enough,
you won't get it. I've seen that said on TV.
They won't. That's not really how viruses where king God's
protect you from that. Yes, but you can still give
(09:42):
the virus. I think a lot of people in Christian
theom would say, well, God has given us vitamins and
things of this earth. We don't need medical treatment. We
need the things of the earth that God's already given
us to treat ourselves. Well. God has also given us
doctors and scientists and things like that. And so I
don't think it's really political. I think it's this kind
of this other worldly spiritual element to it that they
(10:02):
feel like they have take on. But there is certainly
a political side of it. I just don't really see
that large in my context, though everyone's experience is unique.
Pastor Corny had some advice for approaching conversations with vaccine
hesitant people like those in his congregation. What I would
say to Christians who are asking questions about the vaccine,
(10:24):
and every context is different, is that remember that every
good gift comes from God, and there's this idea of
common grace that God gives all people with. And I
believe that that doctors and medical expertise is one of
those things that God has given us. We're making headway
with cancer treatment. We have vaccines today to prevent polio
and things like that, and so in the midst of
the pandemic, instead of being skeptical always, I'm not saying
(10:47):
you shouldn't ask questions. You absolutely should. You should consult
your doctor about putting something in your body. I do
believe that, and I believe that you should pray and
make decisions based off of that too, which you find
in scripture. But I've only that God has gifted as
doctors and medical experts, and it's a sign of his
grace that in the medici of a pandemic where six
thousand Americans have died, where millions have died across the world,
(11:10):
that perhaps this is something good that he has given
us to treat us with this. So consult your doctor,
taught to experts. Don't rely to you know, two blogs,
or what you filter with what you read in the
newspaper or what you were watching the news, because everything
is slanted. I think that most people would say that
there's a slant on whatever you watch. Instead, trust your doctor,
your doctors, your doctor for a reason, and if you
(11:32):
have ethical or theological questions, go ask your pastor about
it and lean on him. And then you just have
to make a decision based on who you're around, who
you um are interacting with, what you're going and doing,
if you need to do that or not. And then
I would just always, like I've told some people have
sat in my office who have questioned masks and things
like that, could you live with yourself if you spread
(11:53):
this to somebody else and it did take their life.
I know that I couldn't. That's why I wear a
mask till this day. You know, Texas is very open,
but every Sunday you can see me right on the
front point part Batist church and irving wearing a mask
until I get up to preach, where distance from everybody,
And that's what I would tell him. Pastor Jared Cornett's
(12:16):
experience demonstrates that what seems to be a political divide
isn't necessarily politically or ideologically motivated, So we should listen
carefully to everyone's unique questions and concerns. Pastor Cornet's faith
contributes to his trust in science and the COVID nineteen vaccines,
(12:37):
and the same as also true of our next guest,
Dr Francis Collins. Dr Collins is Director of the National
Institutes of Health or n i H, a role he
has retained across multiple presidential administrations. He's a physician and
geneticist who led a massive project you might have heard of,
the Human Genome Project. Now he receives a diverse body
(13:01):
of research as NIH director and Dr Collins he's a
great guy and he's a person of faith himself. This
and his incredible ability to discuss science with all people
across the political spectrum make him uniquely qualified to talk
about these issues surrounding the COVID nineteen vaccines. I had
(13:23):
a great time sitting down with Dr Collins to discuss
why he trusts the COVID nineteen vaccines and the importance
of listening, not lecturing, listening when it comes to talking
about those vaccines. He also is more than happy to
talk about his faith and how it plays into his
trust in science. Dr Collins, I don't have to tell
(13:46):
you issues become politicized and coronavirus COVID nineteen no exception,
and holing available in early May shows that about ten
percent fewer conservatives than the total popularity shouldn't have started
the vaccination process. And although the percentage of those who
say they will never get the vaccine it's dropping a
(14:08):
still higher than any other demographic. Um. Why do you
think that is, sir? Well, First of all, let me
say I am not a political animal, in case anybody's
worried that I'm bringing some kind of perspective of that sort. Um.
I've been the NAGED director now for twelve years. I
was appointed by President Obama, i was retained in this
(14:29):
job by President Trump, and now I've been retained again
by President Biden. So if there's any indication here that
I am particularly aligned with any of those political movements,
I hope that helps straighten it out. Why is it
then that one's political party seems to play such an
important role in decisions about whether or not to be
(14:50):
vaccinated or frankly, whether to wear a mask. I think, frankly,
it's kind of a sad tale about how country has
become so polarized on almost every thing. And this is
another example. I think conservatives are, by their nature perhaps
more likely to be skeptical when the government tells you
(15:10):
to do something. Conservatives in government ought to kind of
stay in its place, and maybe they see this instance
as an example where they're being asked by governors or
presidents or mayors to take actions that invades their own
sort of liberty. But you know what, that doesn't really
fit this situation. We're talking about the worst pandemic in
(15:33):
a hundred and three years. It is killed close to
six hundred thousand people in the United States alone, and
we have a means of ending it with a highly
effective and safe vaccine. So it's too bad political considerations
or a sense of liberty invasions are getting in the
way of what just good common sense would say, Roll
(15:54):
up your sleeve and let's get this. And that's what
people come back to common sense. And I'm glad thank
you for laying out everything your background, because I want
people to hear this conversation and not feel that it's
geared one way or the other. It's truly giving people,
all people the accurate information so they can make decisions
(16:17):
on their own. But we have found and the reason
why in this particular episode we're talking about how it's
being politicized, because as you said, there is a solution
to this long problem that we have and until we
can it's not about converting. It's about convincing with facts.
Not trying to convert anybody, but convince people with facts.
(16:40):
The groups that are resistant to becoming vaccinated, they say
it's it centers on safety and long term side effects.
What is your message to assure them, Well, it's totally
appropriate to ask those questions. First of all, I really
am worried that sometimes people like me come across as
lecturing instead of list senning. So I've tried to do
(17:01):
a lot of listening robin to what people's concerns are.
And yeah, these vaccines just approved by the Food and
Drug Administration for emergency use in December. That means we
haven't had decades of experience, so people will want to know, Okay,
what's the data here to say, first of all, do
these work well? These actually protect me? And second of all,
(17:23):
is there anything hiding there that might be an adverse
event that I'd want to know about. I think the
data that one can point to is pretty convincing. All
of these vaccines that FDA has approved in the US
have gone through trials of at least thirty thousand people.
That's substantially larger than the usual vaccine trial. Those are
(17:45):
situations where half the people got the vaccine and half
got a shot, but it was actually a dummy and
they didn't know which they got. That's the only way
you can really assess. Then what is the effectiveness? And
are there side effects? Because some pople are going to
have something happen that has nothing to do with their shot,
and you want to see is there a cause and effect?
(18:06):
And the results are really remarkable for all three of
the vaccines that have been approved. Now people may say, well, yeah,
but we only have a few months of experience, but
we have more than that because the trials started last
summer in July, so there are people walking around who
have been immunized now for going on close to a year,
(18:26):
and we are not seeing that they are encountering any
adverse events at all. From experience with other vaccines, if
there's going to be an unexpected side effect, it almost
invariably happens in the first two months, actually usually even
sooner than that. So f DA in general looks at
those first two months and if you don't see something there,
and they're gonna say, this looks like a safe vaccine.
(18:49):
And I think we can lean on that experience as
well and say we're in a really good shape with
the in terms of being safe for all those who
need them. And you know, I'm so glad that people
are are speaking up. We know that their questions out there,
and we welcome them. I think sometimes people feel that
because they're raising their hand or they're they're concerned that
(19:12):
they're put into a certain group, and it's saying no, no, no, no,
it's okay, and and what what needs to be done
to close this vaccination gap between primarily conservatives and the
rest of the country. Do you think, Dr Collins, I
think conversations like this where we get away from rumors
and other sort of unnamed anxieties that maybe aren't really
(19:35):
gonna be sustainable once you have access to the data
and an appreciation just about why this is for the
individual potentially life saving and for and for our whole
community also a really important thing. There are certainly people
who say, you know, I've seen this disease spread across
the country. I had a few friends who got COVID,
(19:57):
they got better. What's the big deal. If I happen
to get it, well, I'll be fine. You can't always
say that. There are plenty of young people who got
COVID who didn't do fine. You know, Romen, there three
children who have died of COVID. We say that children
are really not ones to worry about. That's true most
of the time, but not all the time. When you
(20:18):
turn down the chance for protection, you are putting yourself
at risk, regardless of who you are. Obviously more so
if you're older or if you have some medical condition,
but nobody is immune to the risk here of a
bad outcome. Another issue, location, location location, Dr Collins and
(20:39):
polls show higher vaccine hesitancy rates in rural areas with
higher conservative populations, so the COVID nineteam poses higher risk
in areas that are less densely populated. Is it is
it for for people saying, Hey, that's that's for the
big cities. That's not that's not where I live out
in the country. Well, there might be a slight tendency
(21:02):
for the virus to have less impact in rural communities
because people are not as likely to be closely packed
together where it can be transmitted. But think back to
things that have happened over the last sixteen months. Where
were the places where the disease was particularly rampant. Uh,
it was in the Dakotas. Most recently, it was Michigan,
(21:25):
where I have family up there in the Thumb of Michigan,
which is mostly rural area, and yet there were lots
and lots of affected individuals and people who died. So yeah,
I kind of see. Maybe if you're in a rural
community it doesn't seem quite so important. But you should
never imagine that somehow that means the virus is gonna
skip over you. It's just looking for humans and it
(21:46):
will find them. Yeah, it does not discriminate in any
kind of way. We should stop a second here, Robin
and recognize how amazing it is that the scientific community
faced with the worst pandemic in a hundred and three years,
absolutely got all hands on deck work seven, came up
with these strategies to sort of cut away some of
(22:08):
the dead times that normally afflict projects like building a vaccine,
and came up with this amazing outcome where we can
have this conversation today about whether people should decide to
take a safe and effective vaccine as opposed to well,
why do we have to wait another couple of years
for any vaccines to appear, which would have been the
normal timetable. Let's talk a little bit more about that.
(22:30):
Dr Collins, You're onto something there, because that's so true,
and I have to meet two When they were first
talking about a vaccine, I was like, whoa, Well, well
wait a minute now. If history serves me right here,
it takes years before. So when it did come out
faster than it had in the past. But then when
I did my homework, as we're helping people to do,
(22:52):
I didn't realize how much work had already gone into
this before. And so can you explain to people again
the reason why these vaccines were able to get out
to the public and record speed. Well, we had worked
for twenty five years to try to develop this new
(23:13):
very rapid approach to vaccine development called mRNA Messenger RNA,
and this was the work of various scientists, mostly in
the US, trying to figure out whether you could actually
get the immune system to make anybodies against a viral
protein even more efficiently if you use the instructions for
(23:35):
that protein instead of the protein itself. That's basically what
messenger RNA is. It just a little instruction book. You
stick it into a muscle cell and you tell the
muscle cell make that spike protein on the surface of
that nasty coronavirus, and the muscle cell goes, yeah, I
know how to do that, and it happens very quickly,
and then the immune system sees it and makes the
antibodies and you're immunized. And because it's so speedy, all
(23:59):
you have to really know is the letters of the
code of that virus and you can start designing the vaccine,
which is exactly what happened about two yards from where
I am right now in the Vaccine Research Center at
NIH on January when the letters of the code of
that stars Kobe two virus got posted on the internet
(24:20):
and within forty eight hours, they had designed the vaccine,
and within sixty days the first patients were being injected
as part of the Phase one trial. That is like
light year, is faster than it has ever been possible.
But because this technology had been developed and optimized over
years and years actually working on stars and working on merrs,
(24:41):
then it was all ready to go. The other thing
that we ought to mention is it's one thing to
have a great start to the vaccine effort, but then
you've got to scale up to big trials eventually thirty
thousand people. Usually that takes you a heck of a
long time. You gotta organize this, you've got to write
the protocol, get all the used and find the money,
(25:01):
and so years go by. Because of Operation Warp Speed,
which was a really important effort in the Trump administration,
all of those things got thought about right from the beginning,
so we would have clarity about how you went from
that first phase one trial to ultimately the definitive trial,
and also how you would make sure that if the
vaccine actually worked, that you were already making doses of
(25:24):
it that you could start giving to people. All of
that had to be thought through, and that's why it
felt like it went really fast, but it was fast
for smart reasons. And Okay, maybe warp speed was not
the best term to use for this because it made
people think like, oh, a bunch of cowboys, they're going
too fast. But I don't think you wanted us to
(25:45):
do operations slow boat when people were dying. So it
was a good thing to be really careful about the planning,
finding the resources, skipping over the dead times that normally
vex this process. That's what we did during this course
of the conversation. Even if we change one person's mind,
convinced them with these facts, not again, not trying to convert,
(26:08):
but convinced. And then they say, okay, but I have
a family member. Do you have any insider or already
tips and how if you have a conservative family member
that you could have a conversation with them like this.
What I do think is that family members sometimes are
the most effective advocates for people rethinking their position. It's
(26:31):
one thing for you know, me government employee, who has assumed,
of course to be on the side of vaccines naturally
because we helped make them. But if it's your spouse,
or your brother or sister, or your son or daughter
who said, you know, I've really looked at this and
I think this is something that you ought to consider.
Let me tell you why that may get more attention.
(26:53):
And if it's your clergyman, or it's your doctor recognized,
plus of clergy have gotten backcinated, plus of doctors have
gotten vaccinated. That tells you something about what they think
of this, and I think most of them are willing
to talk about that. Another thing, though, you know, I
think we're missing one of the really important point about
(27:14):
the importance of vaccination. Going beyond that it is a
benefit to yourself in terms of preventing a terrible illness,
it's also part of your opportunity and maybe responsibility to
your community to try to create this blanket of immune
protection over all of us. And you don't get there
(27:34):
until most people are immunized. It's called herd immunity, which
is a terrible term. But the idea is the virus
is going to fade away if there aren't very many
people around anymore that it can infect. We know that
is how it works, and think of this. I have
a friend who has leukemia, UM. I have another friend
who is a kidney transplant. Both of them have gotten vaccinated,
(27:58):
and both of them failed to raise is any antibodies.
Because their immune systems are affected in one case by
chemotherapy and another by immunotherapy for avoiding transplant rejection, they
are vulnerable. They're the ones I worry about most at
night in terms of what might happen if they got
exposed to this virus. They're only real means of protection. Besides,
(28:22):
you know, hiding away, which they have been doing, is
for the rest of us to get immune so that
we aren't going to be the vectors to pass that
virus to them and ultimately take their lives. And I
think most of us really do have this sense of
concern about our community and about vulnerable people, no matter
whether you're conservative or liberal, no matter whether you're a
(28:42):
believer or not. This is sort of one of our
human qualities that we do try to do things to
try to help those who are in the greatest and
most vulnerable kind of position. And here's a chance to
do that. And to miss that also is to miss
a pretty important argument about why this does seem to
be something that falls on all of our shoulders. You know,
(29:05):
Dr Collins, you almost brought tears to my eyes because um,
having gone through cancer twice, and I yes, and my
um immune system is not as robust as it should
be for somebody who's sixty years old. This is your
cue to say you don't sound or look like you're
sixty rights. But I have to say, I took precautions.
(29:30):
But my team around me, my team around me. Did
you know each of us have a pod, UM, George Stephanopoulos, UM,
Michael Strahan All of us have a team. And my
team was the only one that did not go through COVID.
Thankfully they were okay, but my pod was the only one.
And I really appreciate that they knew how vulnerable I
(29:55):
would be. And I find myself now that I'm fully vaccinated,
I stare wear my mask when I'm out because I
don't know others who might be vulnerable. I'm protected, but
I also want to protect them. Who are you O?
We're getting me to cry, do Collins? Um? But serious issues.
I'm glad we can talk about them, and we need to,
and people need to. We need to get outside of
(30:16):
our ourselves. But you brought up a very good point,
my friend, when you mentioned clergy and poles show higher
vaccine hesitancy rates among evangelical Christians. You are a person
of faith, I am as well. How would you approach
that conversation with a vaccine skeptical Christian. Well, I'm trying
(30:37):
to do a lot of that because I am an
evangelical Christian. I was an atheist in my twenties and
became converted to Christianity as a medical student, and it
is the most important part of my life in terms
of how I evaluate everything around me and how I
pray for some kind of relief when terrible things are happening.
(30:57):
So I think I know what believers are wrestling with here,
and again, the most important thing is to be listening,
because skeptics who happen to be believers have different reasons
for being skeptical. Some of them have, I'm sorry to say,
been caught up in some of the conspiracy theories that
are so widely spread on social media. But some of
them I think are caught in this dilemma that they
(31:22):
are people who trust in God as I do, and
they have prayed to God to protect them and their
family from COVID nineteen. If they accept the vaccine, does
that mean they didn't really quite trust God. After all,
I've heard this many times. And yet when you step
back from that, you can kind of see, wait a minute,
(31:44):
there's something not quite falling together here. Because, after all,
if you're a believer and you see science as God's gift,
as I do, our ability to understand creation which has
been given to us by God Almighty, and to figure
out how it were, and to use that information to
develop something that's going to save somebody's life. That is
(32:06):
god answering prayer. That's not some separate pathway. That is
right in the middle of that hope that our prayers
are gonna save us. And here it comes, So embrace
it and give thanks. It's a gift, but you've got
to unwrap the gift, which means rolling up your sleeve.
Otherwise it just sits there. So that's one thing as
(32:28):
well as sort of overarching it a bit of not
great history here between faith and science that people of
faith tend to think that scientists are mostly ass So
I guess I'm the contract example there. Uh, And frankly
of scientists are believers. That surprises people, But that's the case.
(32:51):
And again, this is one of my passions, Robin, is
we have such opportunities to bring people of faith and
people of science together to have really interesting conversations about
how all of this provides insight into God's mind. And
yet we haven't gotten as far with that maybe in
this country as we might, and people are interested. Can
go and look at this website called bio Logos, which
(33:13):
is a great place to engage in those conversations and
reassure yourself that science is not opposed to faith. Science
shines a wonderful new set of prism lights on faith
and vice versa. It's a wonderful harmonization that's possible there.
When you talk, you're usually repeating something that you already know,
but when you listen you might learn something new. And
(33:37):
I have certainly been learning something new listening to you,
Dr Francis Collins. Uh your spirit and the way that
you are able to convey information and facts to help
increase vaccine confidence. So grateful to you, Dr Collins. Thank you,
Thank you. Robin. You know I do read my Bible
(33:57):
every morning, and this morning and once again I was
reading Psalm forty because I keep going back to it.
God is our refuge and strength and ever present help
in trouble. I think. The help in this case is
coming for us through science, and the help is called vaccines,
and God is right in that. So please people who
have somehow decided that this doesn't apply to you, Look again,
(34:22):
there are good answers to questions. Go to Google, type
in we can do this, and it will take you
to that site of the COVID Community Core, where hundreds
of organizations and churches and civic organizations and physicians organizations
have all gotten together to provide the kind of answers
you might be looking for. There are answers. Just let's
go and look and then roll up your sleep. Wow.
(34:58):
Dr Collins, he really makes you think. Because though there
appears to be a political divide in those holding out
on the COVID nineteen vaccine so far, it's clear that
the reasons for vaccine hesitancy are unique to every individual,
no matter where they stand on the political spectrum. If
(35:19):
you have questions yourself, learning about the science behind the vaccines,
talking to your doctor, and even studying the theological reasons
for getting vaccinated can help alleviate your concerns. And if
there are hesitant people in your life, listen carefully for
their questions, dealt with compassion. With open, honest discussions, the
(35:41):
whole intent of this podcast series. We can mend this
divide and move forward from the COVID nineteen pandemic. Isn't
that what we all want? To get vaccinated? Go to
(36:03):
vaccine dot gov and click find COVID nineteen vaccines. The
site will help you determine where you can get the
vaccine and how to make an appointment. Now you don't
have to worry about paying for your vaccine. Your taxpayer
dollars are funding the rollout, so there's no individual cost
to you. So if someone asks you to provide your
(36:25):
insurance information, that's only so your vaccination provider can build
your insurance for the administrative costs, but you will not
be personally responsible for any expenses. I'd like to thank
our guests. Thank you Pastor Jared Cornett and Dr Francis
Collins for sharing your thoughts and expertise with us today,
(36:46):
and you know what, thank you for listening. COVID nineteen
Immunity in Our Community was developed and paid for by
the U. S Department of Health and Human Services, part
(37:08):
of a public education campaign to increase public confidence in
COVID nineteen vaccines. While reinforcing basic prevention measures. We can
do This, Presented by I Heart Radio and ABC News.
This podcast is hosted by me Robin Roberts. The episode
was executive produced Ethan Fixal with production by Wonder Media Network.
(37:33):
It was written, engineered, and edited by Edie Aller to
Triple Threat, with research assistance from Alessandra Tajta, with original
theme music by Brad Kemp. If you haven't already subscribed,
rate it or reviewed COVID nineteen immunity in our Community,
what are you waiting for? Please do so on the
I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get
(37:58):
your podcasts. I am Robin Roberts and this is COVID
nineteen immunity in our community. We could do this. Thank
you for listening. H
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