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April 16, 2024 39 mins

Actor Alec Baldwin has been indicted again, charged with involuntary manslaughter by New Mexico prosecutors in the death cinematographer Halyna Hutchins. The shooting on set during the production of the film, "Rust."  Baldwin was allegedly four feet from the crew on set in a mock church pew when he used his right hand to reach across his body to grab the gun holstered on his left side.  He was reportedly aiming the gun toward cinematographer Halyna Hutchins when he drew back the hammer and released it. The bullet first went through director Joel Souza’s shoulder before striking Hutchins in the chest, killing her.

Ever since the shooting death of Halyna Hutchins on the set of Rust, Alec Baldwin has claimed he didn't pull the trigger. Even after an FBI report contradicting Baldwin's account of the shooting saying the trigger had to have been pulled for the gun to fire, Baldwin still says he didn't pull the trigger. The FBI report says their testing proves the gun could not be made to fire without the pull of the trigger.   Accidental discharge testing determined that the firearm used in the shooting -- a .45 Colt single-action revolver -- could not have fired without the trigger being pulled. The FBI Report also says,  With the hammer in the quarter- and half-cock and fully cocked positions, the gun "could not be made to fire without a pull of the trigger. Alec Baldwin says he didn't pull the trigger 

The armorer for the film Hannah Gutierrez-Reed was also charged and she has been convicted and sentenced on manslaughter charges. In recorded Jailhouse phone calls Gutierrez-Reed blasts the jurors calling them "idiots" and "A-Holes".   Prosecutors say the jailhouse recordings show how she really is outside of court. Gutierrez-Reed wants Alex Baldwin to go to jail too and says she won't testify at his upcoming trial if subpoenaed. 

Joining Nancy Grace today: 

  • Dale Carson – High-profile Attorney (Jacksonville), Former FBI Agent & Former Police Officer (Miami-Dade County); Author: “Arrest-Proof Yourself”
  • Paul Szych – Former Police Commander (Albuquerque, NM), APD Domestic Violence and Stalking Unit; Author: “Stop Him From KillingThem;” X: @WorkplaceThreatt; Screen Actors Guild-Eligible Actor (experience using firearms with blanks during live-action movie scenes/Terminator: Salvation) 
  • Dr. Michelle DuPre – Former Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff’s Department, Author: “Homicide Investigation Field Guide” & “Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide;” Forensic Consultant
  • Johonniuss Chemweno - Film and TV Safety Expert - CEO, VIP StarNetwork; X: @johonniuss_j
  • Maureen Callahan – Columnist for the DailyMail.com; X: @DM_Maureen_

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, movie star Alec Baldwin one
step closer to a jury trial on homicide. Baldwin's rage
fits and uncontrollable anger on set coming back to bite
him in the neck as his rust movie co defendant

(00:22):
found guilty for the onset shooting death of wife and
mother cinematographer Helena Hutchins. Next up, Alec Baldwin. I'm Nancy Grace,
this is Crime Stories.

Speaker 2 (00:36):
Thank you for being with us.

Speaker 3 (00:51):
You find the defendant and Teers is guilty of the
voluntary mansliter as Tarsi and can one.

Speaker 1 (01:00):
Putambrey msstraction content co defendant the Armorer just found guilty
in a court of law. The armorer charged along with
Alec Baldwin. Is he this close to a jury trial
on homicide? Joining me an all star panel and makes
sense of what we know right now? Marine Callahan First up,

(01:22):
columnist Dailymail dot Com, Maureene, thank.

Speaker 4 (01:25):
You for being with us. What happened?

Speaker 5 (01:27):
What happened? Is You're correct? Alec Baldwin is one step closer.

Speaker 4 (01:32):
He is next up?

Speaker 5 (01:34):
And if what happened to this armorer is any indication
of what is about to happen to Alec Baldwin, things
do not look good for him. I would argue that,
aside from the complete lack of safety protocols that were
left just completely neglected on this set.

Speaker 4 (01:55):
You know, you have this armorer who's arguing.

Speaker 5 (01:57):
I was young, in naive, I was in over my
head and don't take the job where your main responsibility
is to keep the cast and crew safe from life
and limb being destroyed. What I think is the connective
tissue between Hanna Gutier's read and Alec Baldwin is, as
the judge said in Hannah Sentencing, an utter lack of remorse,

(02:21):
an utter lack of taking any accountability, and as we
have seen since this tragic incident, Alec Baldwin, for moment
one has expressed sympathy for only himself.

Speaker 1 (02:34):
Along with his wife, who keeps posting shots of herself
and skin tight leggings and stiletto heels walking around New
York and very callously posting happy moments of them with
their family. As the family of Helena Hutchins goes without
a wife and mom. Guys, it didn't help anything when

(02:56):
the co defendant the armorer.

Speaker 4 (02:58):
An armorer is the person.

Speaker 1 (03:00):
On the set that's in charge of all of the
amo and the guns and the weapons and agoutietas read
actually is calling the Gurrrs idiot a holes, idiots and
a holes. Okay, that's not gonna help anything. Del Carson,
high profile lawyer, former FBI agent, joining us out of

(03:24):
Jacksonville's author of Arrest Proof Yourself.

Speaker 4 (03:27):
He's at del Carson Law dot com.

Speaker 1 (03:30):
Dell, have your clients still not figured out their calls
are being recorded? You know, when you've got somebody two
or three days before sentencing and they're going the.

Speaker 4 (03:42):
Jeryson a hole, the jerseysan bunch of idiots.

Speaker 6 (03:46):
Really, it's a real problem. And no matter how many
times you tell your clients that they're recording the phone calls,
it really doesn't have a significant effect on their conversations
on telephones to their friends, because they're talking to people
that they purportedly or have positive relationships with. And of

(04:08):
course she's probably right. They did convict her, although they
did find her not guilty of the cocaine charge, which
is kind of a gift.

Speaker 4 (04:18):
Did you just say Gutierrez is kind of right?

Speaker 1 (04:22):
Is that what you said? She's probably kind of right.
What she called the jars a holes.

Speaker 6 (04:28):
From her perspective. They convicted her, right, they're not friends
of hers obviously.

Speaker 4 (04:33):
Is she just telling her truth?

Speaker 1 (04:35):
In other words, of course history rewritten the way she.

Speaker 4 (04:38):
Wants it to be.

Speaker 6 (04:39):
Well, they convicted her, and you got to know that
that doesn't make her feel good. So since she's full
of herself, I don't care.

Speaker 4 (04:47):
How she feels. Are you crazy? What I just are
you okay? Number one? Are you in the middle of like? Maybe? Okay?

Speaker 1 (04:55):
So you're agreeing with the woman that a jury has
found guilty in a homicide charge where a shooting death
occurred at the workplace of a young wife slash mother,
incredible cinematographer. You're okay with her calling the jurors a
holes and idiots.

Speaker 6 (05:14):
I'm a defensive attorney, Nancy, of course, I'm okay with that.

Speaker 4 (05:18):
Well, you know what's interesting.

Speaker 1 (05:19):
A snake crawls on its belly and it thinks it's
a king, Okay, but it's not.

Speaker 4 (05:25):
It's a snake. So blurting out I'm a defense attorney
doesn't make it okay. You know what, I'm gonna let.

Speaker 1 (05:31):
You think about what you've done for a few moments.
I'm putting you in the corner your official time out, guys,
in case any of you have forgotten what this is about.
All right, we're joking around. Helena Hutchins is dead. She
has a little boy and a husband. The little boy

(05:52):
no mommy, no mommy. That's never gonna change for him.
There may be a step mother someday, there may be
a daddy's girlfriend, but there is no such thing as
a new mother. Take a listen to this nine one

(06:13):
one call.

Speaker 7 (06:14):
The Nanza Creek Grant had two people accidentally shot on
a movie set by a prop done. We need help immediately,
the Nanza Creek Grant. Come on, stay almost phone with me.
We're going to get some help. Okay, okay, what is
your name?

Speaker 3 (06:28):
Don't hang up?

Speaker 7 (06:28):
Okay, hold on just one second. It sounds like somebody
else is calling for better miss.

Speaker 8 (06:34):
It's good.

Speaker 7 (06:35):
Everybody should be. We need some help of director in
our cameraman camera woman has been shot. Are they going
to take him to the road?

Speaker 9 (06:43):
So?

Speaker 5 (06:44):
Was it loaded with a real bullet or one?

Speaker 7 (06:46):
I don't I cannot tell you that.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
Okay, gosh, they're a pretty calm, a very calm demeanor
when two people had been shot. Marie Callahan special guests
joining us calumnists for dailymail dot Com. I think is
the biggest online news outlet in the world.

Speaker 4 (07:04):
Not sure about that. I'm sure all the other outlets
would argue with.

Speaker 1 (07:07):
That, Marie Callahan. Two people were shot. Who's the other one?
I know, Helena Hutchins, a cinematographer. And who's the other one?
Shot by Alec Baldwin? Although we keep saying he didn't
pull the trigger? Okay, I hope he tells that to
the jury. Who's the other victim?

Speaker 5 (07:23):
It was Joel Souza, who was on the set as well,
and who testified in this case that he felt that
he had been struck by a baseball bat and that
the moment the shooting happened, Hannah Gutierrez read the armorer
in question was standing over him and saying I'm sorry,
I'm sorry, which is maybe the first and only time

(07:44):
we have heard anything approaching culpability or.

Speaker 4 (07:48):
Remorse out of this young woman. I would also say.

Speaker 5 (07:51):
To your earlier point about her being recorded on prison
calls referring to the jurors as idiots, a holes, and worse,
saying that the judge was on the take and quote
on a power trip. Just it goes to the level
of intelligence here. You know, one would think if you're
on trial for your life, she will never work in

(08:14):
this industry again. She will never hold a job of
any real import again.

Speaker 1 (08:19):
Mariene Callahan, you know that's an old phrase that's thrown around.

Speaker 4 (08:23):
You'll never work in this town again.

Speaker 1 (08:25):
I actually had that said to me by the head
of a network once. By the way, I still did
what I really do anyway. Oh yeah, but that's the
story for another day. Right now, I'm on Alec Baldwin.
You said that, and hey, like, she's not going to
be an armorer again.

Speaker 4 (08:43):
Who cares.

Speaker 1 (08:43):
I'd be worried about not going to jail with all
the killers and the child molesters.

Speaker 4 (08:49):
And the dope dealers. But that's just me.

Speaker 1 (08:51):
I wouldn't worry too much about my career as a
movie armorer at this moment. But you said her calling
the gr rs idiots and a holes? You said and worse?
What was worse than that, other than saying the judge
is on the take? That's huge.

Speaker 5 (09:07):
Well, I would never use this word in most play
people don't use this word anymore. But she used the
R word in referring to the jurors lack of intelligence.
You know, it's all just emblematic of a set. I
believe that from the top down. And by that I
mean by Arian Callahan.

Speaker 4 (09:23):
I have huge respect for you. But what did she say?
She called the jurors recharge? Is that what you're saying?
You did? She did? She did?

Speaker 1 (09:33):
You know? It just never ends with this one, does it?
Her and Alec Baldwin.

Speaker 4 (09:37):
You know what?

Speaker 1 (09:38):
That brings me to another point why their trials were
severed to start with, because I put those two in
the same pot and let them stew together.

Speaker 4 (09:47):
But take a listen to this nine on one call.

Speaker 7 (09:49):
We have two injuries from a movie done shock, Okay,
we're getting them out there already to stay on my phone,
wasn't me?

Speaker 10 (09:58):
Okay?

Speaker 9 (10:00):
That yelled at me.

Speaker 7 (10:00):
At lunch because asking about revisions?

Speaker 4 (10:03):
Did you see and yell at.

Speaker 7 (10:05):
Me he's for subjected guns, she's responsible for ALMMI no, no, no,
I'm a script. Super people were injured, true that I
know of. I was hearing. We were rehearsing and it
went off and I ran out. We all ran out.

Speaker 4 (10:25):
Crime stories, with Nancy Grace.

Speaker 1 (10:31):
Joining me in addition to Del Carson and special guest
Marine Callahan is a renowned forensic pathologist, medical examiner, Lucky
for me, former detective. She literally wrote the book Homicide Investigation,
Field Guide, new book, Money, Mischief and Murder, the Murdoch's saga.
You may need a volume two on that one, Doctor dupree,

(10:53):
Doctor dupree. You hear the nine one one caller state
that one of the thevictims is bleeding. She wasn't just bleeding,
she bled out, she died. How quickly can a human examinate?

Speaker 3 (11:07):
Financie? Of course, as you know, it depends on where
the person is shot. It can take a very short
period of time, where it can take several minutes. It
all depends on the organs and the injury itself.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
Warning to everybody, Warning to the prosecutor, the judge of the.

Speaker 4 (11:21):
Future, your ours.

Speaker 1 (11:23):
The defense has threatened to call out the big guns
in this case, threatening to bring on Helen Mirren and
Harrison Ford as defense witnesses. I'm pretty sure, Marie Callahan,
that Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren, to icons in the
movie industry, were not on the set that day.

Speaker 4 (11:42):
Would you agree with that?

Speaker 5 (11:44):
I think that's a safe assumption to make, Nancy. I mean,
I'm sure both of them would love to be excluded
from this narrative.

Speaker 4 (11:52):
I mean again, this.

Speaker 5 (11:53):
Just shows you the level of delusion and entitlement and
how long someone like Alec Baldwin has been in his bubble.
He thinks by hauling in a couple of aging A
listers who had nothing to do with this tragedy, that
somehow the jury will be impressed, that somehow the jury
will think that this guy again, who has shown zero remorse, who,

(12:16):
as you said, he and his wife posting happy family
photos within days of Helena Hutchinson's Holy preventable death, saying
that it was intense parenting through this difficult time when
Helena's little boy was unable to speak for two days
after this death. You think this guy's remotely sympathetic. You

(12:40):
think Helena Hutchins's armorer was like, had a remote shot
at getting a sympathetic jury Like Alec Baldwin. I hope
his defense attorneys are able to knock some sense into him,
because she's going to prison, not jail, the judge said,
because of her lack of remorse, because of her attempts
to blame everybody else. And if you want another just

(13:03):
look at the level of her delusion. This girl tried
to get Helena's family members to testify for her in court.

Speaker 1 (13:12):
Helena Hutchins dies on the set of Alec Baldwin's new
movie Rust the Armorer, that's what they call them. Joining
me Johannis chum Waino film and TV safety Expert CEO
of Star Network and you can find him at Vipstar

(13:32):
Networking dot com Johannas they did everything.

Speaker 4 (13:38):
Wrong the Armorer did.

Speaker 1 (13:41):
And when Alec Baldwin actually says he didn't pull the trigger,
that's complete BS technical legal term, because he did pull
the trigger and ballistic texts were conducted to prove he
pulled the trigger. So before I get back on Gucciirez
calling the saying the judges on the take and asking

(14:02):
the victims family to testify.

Speaker 4 (14:04):
For her in court, there's just so much wrong she did.

Speaker 1 (14:08):
In court, that's right, but what went wrong on the set,
mister Chimuyno.

Speaker 11 (14:13):
Pre Planning and Nancy, this is a case that underscores
the significance from a health and safety standpoint. This case
in itself will change, will allow a catalyst to change
within the industry in terms of pre planning, health and
safety protocols, stringent requirements for training as well as most
importantly the hiring, the workforce development. Everything on set should

(14:36):
have never even got to a stage where there was
potentially live ammunition in a dummy gun Nazi and so
this is the importance of this. Will we'll have detriments
into the future. It will be really interesting to follow
the case for the next five to ten years.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
Okay, you know what Johanna is Chimuayno film and TV
safety expert just said everything accurately. But when I I
think about the next five, ten, fifteen years, all I
think about is Helena Hutchins boy growing up and having
one Christmas after the next without mom, one Birthday after
the next, without Mom going to her grave putting flowers there.

(15:15):
As you heard Marine Callahan speak earlier from dailymail dot com,
the little boy.

Speaker 4 (15:21):
Didn't utter one word for two.

Speaker 1 (15:23):
Days after he found out his mother had been shot
dead at work by Alec Baldwin. Guys, many people have
heard the nine on one calls made that day, but
very few have heard the police bodycam footage where the
rust armorer Hannah Gaterez is taken with a cop around

(15:47):
the set and she tries desperately to collect rounds and
rounds of ammunition.

Speaker 4 (15:54):
Listen, I need to.

Speaker 6 (15:55):
Know where the goods are right now, Marmer, I need
to correct.

Speaker 4 (16:15):
Why do I know this is a gun? That's a gun?

Speaker 6 (16:19):
Okay? Where is that at?

Speaker 4 (16:41):
Do you have those crowns they gave you?

Speaker 1 (16:44):
Did you hear that she can't find the ammo? They
don't know which gun is which?

Speaker 4 (16:50):
Wow?

Speaker 1 (16:50):
Okay, back to Marine Callahan joining us from dailymail dot com.

Speaker 4 (16:56):
What about the thresta Hey, hey, Jackie, give.

Speaker 1 (16:59):
Me some soap and a washcloth right now, because I'm
going straight to Marine Callahan's set and washing her mouth
out with soap. To refer to Harrison Ford and Helen
Mirren as aging a listers.

Speaker 4 (17:17):
Okay, girl, you got a nerve.

Speaker 1 (17:18):
Okay, I'm gonna try to ignore that for right now
to just get yes. But their popularity is not my
problem right now, because they're icons, they're legends, they're still
starring on the screen, they're rolling in money.

Speaker 4 (17:33):
Harrison Ford has a wife that's like thirty years younger
than him.

Speaker 1 (17:36):
He's flying around in planes and you called him an
aging a lister.

Speaker 4 (17:40):
You know what? I would not want to look up
and see Indiana Jones coming after me. I don't care
how old he is with that whip, forget it. That said,
their threat is they're gonna call in Helen Mirren and
Harrison Ford.

Speaker 1 (17:56):
To save what Okay, I'm leading up to a legal
point where and tell him, once you bring in character
evidence in a trial, such as Harrison Ford, if he
would do it, say yeah, he Bowin's a great guy.

Speaker 4 (18:09):
That's called opening the door under the law.

Speaker 1 (18:12):
And I would wait on the edge of my seat
every trial hoping the defendant would bring in his or
her good character. Why under our constitution, the state's not
allowed to say, yeah, he's got an arrest for this.
He a taculating in a parking lot. He attacked this person.
He blessed out that you can't do that. You cannot
try a defendant on their reputation unless and until they

(18:36):
open the door.

Speaker 4 (18:38):
Then the state takes out it's very, very huge.

Speaker 1 (18:41):
File like this one and starts going through all of
the convictions and the prior bad acts. So I pray
that they bring on Ford and Mirror because once they do,
all of the bloviators bs over the years is coming
right into the courtroom like that Easter parade Okay, this

(19:02):
is such a restraint.

Speaker 4 (19:04):
Does what history is.

Speaker 6 (19:07):
The obvious right?

Speaker 4 (19:08):
Yeah, the public.

Speaker 5 (19:09):
Rage monster we have long known and been too terribly
acquainted with. Okay, Alec Baldwin, who has punched numerous members
of the paparazzi, who fairly recently got into like slugging
somebody over street parking in New York City, who called
like a Starbucks barista, like a queen who you know,

(19:32):
left that unforgettable voicemail message for his then like twelve
year old daughter calling her a thoughtless little pig. Things
thrown around on Broadway backstage like the So the top
part of this indictment for Baldwin states that he had
quote no emotional control, no control of his emotions on

(19:56):
this set, to which the members of the general public,
I guarantee you any jury pool would say, no surprise there.
This guy is full of rage. And again I think
it was a top down kind of things. Was his set.
He was a producer, he was the star. He allowed
and like a completely inexperienced, gutless, naive, lazy, indolent kid

(20:23):
to be in charge of ammunition on a set that
the day or two before now, the morning of Helena
Hutchins's fatal shooting. A good number of that crew walked
off the set because they were sounding the alarm for
days with the production.

Speaker 4 (20:38):
Take a listen.

Speaker 8 (20:38):
In recorded jailhouse phone calls, Hannah Gutier is Read lashes
out of the jury after she is convicted on manslaughter charges,
but before she is sentenced, Hannah Gutiers Read blasts the
jurors that convicted her, calling them idiots and a holes.
These jailhouse phone call recordings are brought out by the
prosecution just in time for sentencing. The defense has worked

(20:59):
hard to present Gutier has read in a softer, more
genteel manner, but prosecutors say that jail house recordings show
how she really is. Outside of court, Gutiers Read wants
Alec Baldwin to go to jail two and says she
won't testify it as upcoming trial if saphenad.

Speaker 4 (21:23):
Crime stores with Nancy Grace.

Speaker 8 (21:29):
In recorded jail house phone calls, Hannah Gutier is Read
lashes out of the jury after she is convicted on
manslaughter charges, but before she is sentenced. Hannah Gutier is
Read blasts the jurors that convicted her, calling them idiots
and a holes. These jail house phone call recordings are
brought out by the prosecution just in time for sentencing.
The defense has worked hard to present gutiers Read in

(21:52):
a softer, more genteel manner, but prosecutors say that jail
house recordings show how she really is. Outside of court.
Gutier Is Read wants Alec Baldwin to go to jail too,
and says she won't testify it as upcoming trial if
subpoena Wow.

Speaker 1 (22:06):
Okay, so how are you going to get out of
that when you're subpoenaed? And what do you just stick
your bottom lip out? So far you could plan a
row of turnips on it and refuse to testify.

Speaker 4 (22:15):
Okay, that's not going to work.

Speaker 1 (22:17):
But that said, did she do that, Marie Callahan dealingmail
dot com.

Speaker 4 (22:21):
Did she threaten not to testify?

Speaker 5 (22:22):
I called That's what I've read that she's But she
also complained that Alec Baldwin had not been subpoenaed in
her case. So again you're dealing with a level of
not just emotional and psychological immaturity, but intellectual deficit and
the idea that this young woman was placed in charge

(22:44):
of ammunition and weaponry on this set just beggars belief.

Speaker 4 (22:50):
She got what was coming to her.

Speaker 5 (22:52):
She probably would have gotten a lesser sentence again had
she displayed one iota of genuine remorse. But the only
tears she shed We're at the end of this trial
for herself. And this is why I believe this trial
is a giant foreshadowing of what we are about to
see with Alec Baldwin standing trial on a much larger

(23:12):
scale before a much larger audience in July.

Speaker 1 (23:15):
Well, this woman, Hannah guteraz Read would certainly not be
the first for jail house conversations coming back to buy
you in the net. We just saw the sentencing and
the parents of Ethan Cromley, the school shooter, and then
we find out behind bars Cromley's dad threatened to take

(23:37):
a hit out on the lady prosecutor.

Speaker 4 (23:41):
Listen.

Speaker 11 (23:41):
Rarely do we see a defended threatening and the prosecutor,
let alone a member of a triality team, let alone
the elected official.

Speaker 4 (23:49):
There will be retribution.

Speaker 11 (23:51):
She's going to be sucking on a hot rock down
at how soon? I'm I'm dyart, Yes, Karen McDonald is
going down any better?

Speaker 6 (24:05):
I didn't want to be that judge.

Speaker 1 (24:07):
That was just a few weeks.

Speaker 6 (24:08):
Before the trial. I don't know any other definition with
dactor being other than a specific threat me to a
member of the trial team.

Speaker 1 (24:16):
Okay, so that's what jailhouse banter, let me say, gets
you at senacing. And here Hannah Gatea is Reid calling
the jurors a holes and idiots and saying the judge
is on the take out.

Speaker 4 (24:31):
Joining you right now.

Speaker 1 (24:33):
Another special guest, in addition to Marine Callahan, Johannes Chimwaino,
Doctor Dupree and Del Carson, Paul Zeike is joining us.
Former police commander also with the Screen Actors Guild experience
using firearms with blanks during live action movie scenes such

(24:54):
as Terminator, author of Stop Him From Killing Them on Amazon.

Speaker 4 (25:00):
That's a lot.

Speaker 1 (25:01):
But before I continue with your CV, let me ask you.

Speaker 4 (25:05):
What went wrong on the set.

Speaker 1 (25:07):
And Alec Baldwin is now up against it because he
openly stated he did not.

Speaker 4 (25:15):
Pull the trigger.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
Now, when that is disproved at trial, which it will be,
he's going to be stuck with his lie. Explained to
me how it was proven with the gun in question,
the homicide gun, that somebody had to pull the trigger.

Speaker 9 (25:33):
Well, the FBI did a series of testing on that
weapon and it was determined that there is no way
for that weapon to fire unless the trigger is actually pulled.

Speaker 10 (25:44):
It's just that simple. And there's no way for a
projectile to strike somebody that you're not aiming weapon at them.
In both cases that occurred, the environment has to be
there can be no live ammunition anywhere to be seen.
That was also breached. There was a cataclysmic failure at

(26:04):
multiple points that synergistically created this perfect storm and unfortunately
results in absolute horrific incident that we just can't go
back and fix. However, moving forward, we should stop utilizing
deadly weapons as prop guns. This was not a prop gun.
It's a functioning firearm being used as a prop and

(26:26):
at the end of the day, that is a contributory
factor and what caused this?

Speaker 1 (26:31):
Is it true, Marie Callahan, you said earlier Marine joining
us from dailymail dot com. She actually asked Helena Hutchin's family.

Speaker 4 (26:39):
To come on and testify for her.

Speaker 2 (26:42):
Yes.

Speaker 5 (26:43):
Yes, which again goes to the level of entitlement, of
complete lack of culpability accountability.

Speaker 6 (26:51):
That she took.

Speaker 5 (26:52):
She said to the judge before her sentencing. You know,
this doesn't make me a monster. I made a mistake.
It just makes me a human being, you know. And
it sort of springs from this ethos of like gen
Zers that any mistake, even one that results in the
end of a life, is just something that kind of

(27:13):
goes into the bank of your own lived experiences that
will hopefully make you better going forward. I mean, this
is everything that like resulted in her getting eighteen months
in prison, not jail, and one would hope she would
emerge from this a little bit humbled, a little bit better.

Speaker 1 (27:31):
I doubt it, and joining me high profile lawyer or
former fed with the FBI Dale Carson Dale. This should
be a blueprint for Alec Baldwin. But I'm pretty sure
you know, when you don't know a horse. Look at
his track record. He's never listened to a darn thing
anybody's ever told him. Uh So I doubt he's going

(27:51):
to listen now. But the trial of Hannah Gaatea's read
the Armorer on the rest set should be a blueprint
for warning to him, because what.

Speaker 4 (28:03):
She did was this blaming each other.

Speaker 1 (28:07):
That's why I like tri co defenits together because that
jury gets to sit there and watch them all at
the same table blaming each other.

Speaker 4 (28:13):
She blamed Baldwin.

Speaker 1 (28:16):
When Baldwin goes to trial, he's gonna blame her. It
didn't work for good Taras Reid. Do you think it'll
work for Baldwin?

Speaker 6 (28:25):
Well, of course, that's why you call a listers who've
been involved in firearms and the use of armors to
argue that you have a right to rely on what
they've done. But I will say this, the person responsible
for the death here and the use.

Speaker 4 (28:41):
Of a firearm is Baldwin.

Speaker 6 (28:43):
This armor, of course facilitated that, but the real guilt
has to be put on the person who actually killed
the individual. Firearms are inherently dangerous. I've been in a
number of shootings I've seen the results of this. Their
arms are dangerous, and your other guest is absolutely correct.

(29:03):
To have a functioning firearm on set with actual live
rounds is outrageous. No one in their right mind would
do that, even the FBI when it uses prop guns,
they're drilled so that they can't fire a projectile even
if someone mistakenly puts something in a chamber, and to

(29:23):
not do that is insane. But it speaks to the
use of firearms and movies and on scenes directly, and
it tells us that gut and guns are safe. I
can tell you I've carried a gun since I was
twenty two in a police situation all my life. They're dangerous.

(29:44):
I don't like them. I hide them. I put them
in a safe when I'm not using them.

Speaker 1 (29:49):
All of that second verse same as the first. If
I had you on trial, I would object from being
unresponsive to the question. The question was not about you,
young rookie cop at age twenty two.

Speaker 4 (30:01):
Carrying a weapon.

Speaker 1 (30:02):
The question was about the theory of defense at trial?
Will Alec Baldwin blame the armorer like the armorer blamed
Alec Bowen because it didn't work out very well for her?

Speaker 6 (30:19):
Of course he will.

Speaker 4 (30:20):
And will it work? Will it work because I say
it won't work?

Speaker 6 (30:24):
Oh, I say it won't work because he's responsible for
the firearm pointed at a person that he killed.

Speaker 5 (30:30):
Man.

Speaker 4 (30:31):
I'm a JD, not a DDS. I don't have a
pull of tooth, but I will try. Let me go
to JOHANNS.

Speaker 1 (30:37):
Chimueno joining us filming TV safety expert at Vipstar network
dot Com. Johanns right or wrong. Baldwin has claimed, and
this is going to come back to haunt him, that
he didn't pull the trigger. He pulled the trigger.

Speaker 11 (30:52):
Wrong, Nancy, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, It's all wrong, And
I think I think the idea is is that going
into the case, Miss Hannah Gutier's Read is now the scapegoat.
Would you agree, Nancy, They've already convicted her, and to
now convict Alec Baldwin on the same crime, the same
case is going to be challenged, and so rather right

(31:13):
or wrong to the idea is that the judge has
already ruled in Hannegutier Read's case, she is now the scapegoat.
Health and safety standards will continue to be improved alongside
the catastrophic traffic tragic incident rather that has occurred between
the family and Helena Hutcheson. Really from a comprehensive health
and safety standpoint, we can now look at this case

(31:35):
and say, how do we improve how do we move
forward in a way that's consistent with the situation that
again that the family Helena Hutchison is facing, and so
unfortunately gonna agree that Hannahgutier Reads is now the scapegoat
in the case with me.

Speaker 1 (31:51):
Johanna's Chimwayno, who's a film and TV safety expert. I'm
trying to That was a mouthful number one put this
down because I could not keep up with everything you
were saying.

Speaker 4 (32:02):
But to put it in a nutshell.

Speaker 1 (32:04):
I think what you said is they are Bowen's team
is going to blame Gutara's read and it may very
well work because she's already been convicted and they can say, look,
she's been.

Speaker 4 (32:18):
Convicted and jury said, so she's the problem. Okay, got it.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
I think I heard somebody jumping in. Was that marine
or doctor Dupree? It's doctor Dupree, Nancy.

Speaker 3 (32:28):
I think that you know, this is absolutely tragic and
absolutely Alex Baldwin bears some responsibility. But I also think
that we have to put the majority of the blame
or responsibility on Hannah. It was her job. Expect what
would we expect Alex to do? You know, obviously, anyone
handling a gun needs to make sure that it is safe.

(32:49):
But if you open that cylinder and you look at
the cartridges in there, I don't think you can tell
the difference from a live round and a black ground
unless you take the bullets out of the chamber, and
is that what we expect him to do? Maybe it is.
I don't know the answer to that. But the problem
is the headstamp may be different, which is the stamp
on the back of the bullet or the base of

(33:10):
the bullet where the firing pin strikes it. That may
be different from a live round and a blank round.
I don't know. But what Alex know that. I don't
know that either. But the only way to really tell
whether that was a live round or a blank round
is to take the bullets out of the gun and
look at the nose of the bullet and see if
that is or not. But he was the one that

(33:30):
handled it. He is the one that fired the shot.
He absolutely bears some responsibility also, and I think that
he may be bringing in the other actresses and actors
to state how it is normally handled. Does an actor
every time they're handled a fire gun, do they always

(33:50):
look take the bullets out and look at the bullets?

Speaker 4 (33:52):
Do they do that or do they assume right or wrong?

Speaker 3 (33:56):
Do they assume that the one handed to them that
said it saithe is set take a listen.

Speaker 8 (34:01):
Ever since the shooting, death of Helena Hutchins on the
set of Rust. Alec Baldwin has claimed he did not
pull the trigger, even after an FBI report contradicting Baldwin's
account of the shooting, saying the trigger had to have
been pulled for the gun to fire. Baldwin says he
didn't pull the trigger. The FBI report says their testing
proves the gun could not be made to fire without
the pull of the trigger. Accidental discharge testing determined that

(34:24):
the firearm used in the shooting, a forty five CULT
single action revolver, could not have fired without the trigger
being pulled. The FBI report also says with the hammer
in the quarter half cock and fully cocked positions, the
gun could not be made to fire without a pull
of the trigger. Ali Baldwin says he didn't pull the trigger.

Speaker 1 (34:43):
So that may very well be the torpedo into Alec
Baldwin's defense. He could rightfully claim, Oh, it's all the
armorer's fault. That would be a good defense. Do I
believe it? No, But he could claim that, but he
stuck with his claim he never pulled trigger. And there
is nothing worse than a big fat lie landing right

(35:07):
in the middle of your pristine defense of blaming guitaras
Reid so to you, Marie Callahan dailymail dot com. He's
still stuck with that statement, even though the FBI has
proven he did pull the trigger. So when you catch
the defendant lying, it's hard to believe the rest of
their defense, like it's her fault, not my fault.

Speaker 4 (35:29):
Right Nancy.

Speaker 5 (35:30):
And to jump off your previous guests comments, you know,
first of all, it is equally Alec Baldwin's fault. He
is as culpable as the armorer. Both can be at fault.
It's not a binary choice. It's not one or the other.
In the days and weeks after this tragedy, I spoke
to two veteran experts of firearm safety on Hollywood sets,

(35:52):
TV and film. They told me very simple things. There
should be no live rounds. There should have been no
dummy rounds in that gun.

Speaker 4 (35:59):
When you bring a gun.

Speaker 5 (36:00):
To set that the armorer her or himself is checked,
they then open that weapon in front of the actor
and in front of everybody on that set to show
that it is empty. They handed to the actor. The
actor examines it themselves. If Alec Baldwin in that scene
had been called to put that gun to the temple
of his forehead and pull the trigger, do we think

(36:21):
he would have opened that gun?

Speaker 4 (36:23):
I think yes.

Speaker 5 (36:24):
And finally, you are always instructed to never aim a
gun at anything or anyone you do not intend to kill.
Alec Baldwin pointed that gun at Helena Hutchins and pulled
the trigger. Guns do not go off by themselves. If
this defense were allowed to stand, anybody ever charged with
shooting or killing somebody with a firearm would point.

Speaker 4 (36:46):
To that defense. Whoops, gun went off by itself. Doesn't
happen very quickly.

Speaker 1 (36:51):
You were running out of time, and I got to
ask Dale, Carson Dale, I know this is against every
fiber of your being as a trial lawyer, but orsus sincly. Okay,
the state's got another problem of their own doing. I
haven't earned anybody mention this yet, but remember, against my
recommendation and many others, not just me, the state actually

(37:14):
dropped charges against Baldwin early on.

Speaker 4 (37:19):
They're now claying we learned a tough lesson.

Speaker 1 (37:22):
Yeah, so now the defense can rightfully argue to the jury, Hey,
they dropped the charges because they didn't believe in the charges.

Speaker 4 (37:32):
Now they're bringing them again.

Speaker 6 (37:35):
Well, actually they can actually bring witnesses who made that
decision which pushed the government in an even less tenable situation,
which is certainly what I would do. You'd want the
rationale by not prosecuting.

Speaker 4 (37:50):
Johannes Chimwayno, what were you saying?

Speaker 6 (37:52):
Oh?

Speaker 11 (37:53):
I was saying many things in terms of again, Hannagutierra's
reed has already been convicted of involuntary manslaughter. She will
be the scapegoat, Nancy. So can we depend on the
defense Council for Alec Balton coming in and using that
as a means to get Alec Balton off the case. Absolutely,

(38:14):
and that's what I anticipate what happen going into the
case in July.

Speaker 1 (38:17):
Agree, Paul Zich, this is your jurisdiction. You are joining
us from New Mexico. There, what's the word?

Speaker 10 (38:26):
The real problem that Alec Bowman has is the elements
of this crime. Regardless of his status in Hollywood or
you know how many actors he calls in for his defense,
the burden of proof for this particular statute is very low,
and the fact that the gun was in his hand statutorially,
he's got a real problem and as such, he should

(38:49):
take a plea deal. Is my my where I'm at
on this, because I think he's he's going to have
a real tough time convincing a jury that, in fact,
he did not create a sequence of events that created
this death. He was in the mix. There's no way
to pull yourself.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
Out of this perfectly, said Paul Zike. Agree, guys, let's
start with all the Alec Baldwin for just one moment
and remember American hero Border Patrol agent Christopher Luna. Luna
died with two New York National Guarden members protecting our country.
He leaves behind his wife, Esmeralda, and two beautiful children,

(39:31):
Sarah and Hayden. Agent Christopher Luna, American hero Nancy Gray
signing off goodbye friend,
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