May 25, 2023 • 45 mins
Bryan Kohberger's parents have been subpoenaed by a Pennsylvania grand jury to testify in connection with the May 2022 disappearance of a woman missing nearly a year.
Dana Smithers was last seen leaving a friend's house in Monroe County late in the evening. Almost a year later, her remains were recovered in Stroudsburg, about a 30-minute drive from the Kohberger family home in Albrightsville.
Michael Kohberger is expected to testify in court today. Maryann Kohberger has already testified.
Joining Nancy Grace today:
- Tara Malek - Bosie, ID Attorney and Co-owner of Smith + Malek; Former State and Federal Prosecutor.; Twitter: @smith_malek
- Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA.; Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women; Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, and Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital; Voted My Buckhead’s Best Psychiatric Practice of 2023
- Sheryl McCollum - Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder and Host: Zone 7; Twitter: @ColdCaseTips
- Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective (worked over 300 homicides in a 25-year career) & Host of YouTube channel: The Interview Room
- Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet;" Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan;" Twitter: @JoScottForensic
- Dave Mack – CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Breaking news in the prosecution of Brian Coburger, charged in
the four murders of four.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Beautiful University, Idaho students.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
In the last hours, we learn Coburger's mother has already
testified in front of a Pennsylvania grand jury and his
father is set to testify over their strenuous objections. What
does that have to do with, well, the murder of
(00:46):
a woman with three children, the youngest being aged seven,
Dana Smithers, who goes missing from the same county where
Coburger lived.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
With his family.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
They're in the Poconos just before he leaves for Washington
State University. Why are Coburger's parents being forced to testify
in a grand jury murder investigation in Pennsylvania. I'm Nancy Grace.
(01:22):
This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
here at Fox Nation in series.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
XM one eleven.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
First of all, I want to go out to the
founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute, the
Starvenu podcast Zone seven, Cheryl McCollum. Cheryl, Of course, a
grand jury has two arms, investigative and charging. The charging
arm is when they indict you and hand down a
(01:48):
true bill or a no bill.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
They don't charge you.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
The investigative part is when they take a matter under consideration,
the subpoena, documents, object people, all sorts of evidence, and
then they decide if there should be a charge. We
don't know whether this grand jury is acting in a
(02:13):
capacity of investigating and ruling out Coburger or investigating preparing
to charge Coburger in relation to the murder of Dana Smithers.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
What do you make of it?
Speaker 4 (02:28):
I think they are taking out his alibi when he
says he has an airtight alibi. Let's say his parents
were his alibi. They're gonna talk to them individually and
make sure that their story lines up with his story.
I think this is absolutely investigator.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
All right, let's analyze the facts as we know them
with me an all star panel to make sense of
what we know right now. To Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,
Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on
Amazon at start of a Hitting You podcast Body Bags
with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, do you differ in
(03:11):
your opinion? What is the evidence? You have always maintained
that Coburger's first murders were not the Idaho students.
Speaker 5 (03:21):
Yeah, I have because it was such a flourish when
you think of it, you know that this individual would
go in and butcher these four students and at this
one time, and a lot of people will say, well,
he was just surprised. He wasn't anticipating. This guy doesn't.
This guy anticipates.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Everything, surprised about what that.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
There were more than one victim, or that there were
more than one person that they were targeting, that he
was targeting. So I think that he had full awareness.
You know, he had been surveilling this area for some time.
Most of these people that start off are that have
their beginnings, you know, start off doing things like engaging
in things like peeping tommery or attempting to steal underwear
(04:05):
and those sorts of things. So I don't know that
it extends out to the idea that his first his
first interaction of something nefarious was necessarily a homicide. But
I think that there was certainly a dark side. Whether
or not this woman is one of his victims or
a potential victim of his, remains to be seen, because
(04:26):
we need more information from our autopsy.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Well, it's going to be tough because, as we know,
her remains were so decomposed, she had to be identified
through her dental records, so we also don't have a
cause of death. But speaking of underwear, to Chris mcdonna,
a direct her at the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide
(04:49):
detective and host of YouTube channel The Interview Room, Chris mcdonnah,
thank you for being with us along with Cheryl, Joe Scott,
and our other panelists. Speaking of underwe where I hear
where Joe Scott Morgan is going, and I agree yet
disagree with him. I can't do this is anecdotal, this
(05:11):
is not statistical. But I noticed in so many rate
files and murder files, if you look far back enough
into a defendants record criminal history, and you get their
juvenile records, you very often will see peeping tom trespassing,
(05:32):
minor offenses that were sex related, trespassing going into somebody's bedroom, trespassing,
going into their car and rifling through their lipstick and
their stuff they've got in their car. Peeping tom looking
into a woman's window while she's taking a bath or
changing clothes, or really just sitting there on the sofa
reading a book or watching TV. That's peeping Tom, and
(05:53):
it escalates. It progresses to stalking, to an aggravated battery,
to a rate to asdomy, to a murder.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
It progresses.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Like we go from pre k to graduating college, they
go from peeping Tom to a full on quadruple murder.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
That's what I'm talking about. Underwear, underwear, underwear.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Remember the incident of the neighbor in Idaho regarding her underwear.
Speaker 6 (06:22):
Yes, the underwear that was found in the car door
of the young college student next to where the victims
were ultimately discovered. Those are the types of incidents, Nancy,
that we've been talking about, where those are kind of
what we call pre incident indicators up to the big point,
(06:44):
up to the paint.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I need you to have a big word for it.
As I often say to Jackie, Why use one word
when you could use fifty? Okay, what did you call it?
Pre incident?
Speaker 6 (06:55):
What indicators? Right? These are behaviors before I.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Call them babysteps, yes, ma'am.
Speaker 6 (07:02):
And so these are behaviors that are before the crime.
And if we look at this particular incident now I
agree with Cheryl and both Scott. I mean where you
have a grand jury potentially as an investigative probe here.
But if we go back and we narrow this down
pretty quickly, if we have to give this Dana Smithers,
(07:27):
the woman that's been discovered there, we've got to give
her the same look as we did the four students
in Idaho. And the first thing that came to immediately
to me is the crime scene, which that's what we
call the disposal site. And it's a body dump is
(07:48):
what we would call it in Cheryl, and everybody here
knows what I'm talking about. It's right off of the
over a railing by a freeway entrance, and it's across
the street from a multi three story unit hotel. The
address is a Hunter Park Avenue in Bangor, Pennsylvania. And
if you go to Google Earth and you look at it,
(08:08):
and you look at the photographs of where the police
are searching, and then you look at this crime scene
as a whole, this area, the next thing you would
want to look at is what we call a contact site.
Where does a suspect and the victim cross paths in
(08:28):
relationship to where they were discovered. So, going back to
your point about the voyeurism role, here is he thinking
through you know, his fantasy, and the fantasy builds, it builds,
and he arbitrarily comes across this victim, you know, walking
(08:49):
or because it sounds like she left her house at
a certain point, et cetera. And so those are the
kind of things we want to look at here as
this information starts unfold further about Dana.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Okay, let's talk about what we know about Dana, because
this is what I would be looking at. Let me
circle back to Cheryl McCollum before I go to Tara
Malik joining us out of the Idaho jurisdiction, veteran trial lawyer,
partner in Smith and Malik, former state and federal prosecutor.
I want to talk to her about what a grand
(09:22):
jury could be doing. Of course it's secret, that makes
it sound so nefarious, but all grand juries are in secret,
not just one grand jury, but all grand juries are
held in secret. Cheryl McCollum, I would be looking right
now at social media. I would be looking at whether
Coburger had any connection to her on social media. That
(09:44):
is how we think he first identified the four Idaho
slave victims, the girls. Anyway, that's what I would be
looking for. A similar mo modus operandi method of operation Cheryl.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
That's absolutely right. One thing that I'm curious about, Nancy.
We have three potential crime scenes. So when the victim
is leaving her friend's house, which is only three doors down,
she has her cell phone in her hand. Her cell
phone is then found in her home. So was he
laying in wait? Did he bum rush her? How did
he get her out of the house. We then he
(10:19):
must have had a vehicle. We would think to transport
her to the body disposal site, and then the dumping
site would be our third one. I would try to
connect somebody to all three of those sites. She was
called on ring camera. Possibly he was two or.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
His vehicle again, I would be combing if they still
have it.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
That is coming surveillance videos from that date May twenty eight,
twenty twenty two. Remember the four sleighs occurred November. See
May June, July, August, September, October, November, six months later,
coming all of these surveillance video at gas stations, at
the hotel motel that Chris mcdonnad just mentioned, and the
(11:05):
interstate ramps, at red lights, everywhere I could find it
to see who with whom she hooked up. Hi guys,
Nancy Grace here. Please join us now on Fox Nation
for a brand new investigation, Parallels of Evil the Bundy
(11:29):
and Idaho Killings. In this gripping special investigation, we bring
together an incredible panel of guests who analyze disturbing similarities
of evil between these horrible crimes. We speak with two
female Ted Bundy survivors, Karen Pryor and Cheryl Thomas, who
(11:52):
described their life before and after they were victims of
Ted Bundy. We also speak with the renowned private investigator
Bill Warner who worked the cases, and Ted Bundy's defense attorney,
John Henry Brown.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
We traveled to.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Moscow, Idaho, to speak with Washington State University students and
interview neighbors of Brian Coburger. One neighbor shares exclusive insights
about the suspect in the Idaho killings, Brian Coburger. Don't
miss Parallels of Evil the Bundy and Idaho Killings, streaming
(12:30):
now exclusively on Fox Stature Time Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Now another thing.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Let's follow her movements, Follow her movements that evening, you know.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Let's start with our cut four five one.
Speaker 7 (13:00):
Jackie neighbor, Terra Sioni says Dana Smithers came to her
home late the night of the festival. They only lived
a few houses from each other and the visit was
nothing unusual. Sioni tells Dateline that Smithers was smoking and
that was something she only saw Smithers doing when she
was nervous or on edge. Smithers invited Sioni to her home,
(13:20):
but Sioni declined as she was tired. Smithers went home
around eleven pm, her departure captured on Sionie's ring camera.
She had her phone in her hand. That was the
last time anyone saw Dana Smithers.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
So she was at the friend's house after a local
festival and she had only her phone because she walked
to the friend's house. She's a couple of doors downroom
where she Denas Smithers lived with her seven year old
daughter and her mother. Festival What Festival Take a lit
Star cut four five zero.
Speaker 8 (13:53):
Dena Smithers grew up in Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania with her sister Stacy,
who describes her sister as Gregary Yes. Stacy tells Dateline
that Smithers is fun loving with a very boisterous laugh.
Dina Smithers is a mother of three to a twenty
five year old son, a twenty three year old daughter,
and a seven year old daughter. The day she went missing,
Smithers spent the day with her youngest daughter and the
(14:16):
girl's father at a nearby festival. The father and Smithers
were no longer a couple, but maintained an amicable relationship
for their daughter. Back home, after the festival, Dina Smithers
went down the street to speak to her neighbor of
sixteen years, TIRACIONI.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
So she Dennas Smithers is at this festival with her daughter,
seven years old, her ex They say they have an
amicable relationship. They leave for the evening. They after spending
the day there, she goes home. Her seven year old
is at home with the grandma, Dana's mother. She walks
down the street to visit with friend Tara. She leaves
(14:55):
Tara's home and she spotted around eleven pm on the
ring doorbell. You can see her very clearly walking away
with her phone in her hand. Here is the rub.
Her cell phone and keys and her meds that she
never fell taking are at home. So where does she
go without her cell phone? And I want to go
(15:19):
out to Tara Malick joining us out of the Idaho jurisdiction. Tara,
a grand jury, as I said, is investigative and charging.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
What do you make of both the parents, both.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Of Coburger's parents being called to testify from that Pennsylvania
grand jury.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
And I'd also like to point.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Out that the body is found in the same county
where the parents. Coburger's parents live there in the Poconos,
It's Monroe County, So that is a coincidence. It's really
hard to ignore.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Do you agree?
Speaker 6 (15:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 9 (15:54):
I agree. I think it's very odd. I think their location,
their geographic location, the timing and when this occurred right
before Coburger was going off to Washington University, I think
all of that is highly suspicious and problematic for them.
What'll be interesting is, you know whether either one of
(16:15):
them took the fifth or fleeted the fifth during the
grand jury proceedings. Already, we've got some suspicions with Dad.
Why was he, you know, assisting Coburger as he drove
cross country back to Pennsylvania in a really weird and
circuitous kind of route. So I think it's a it's
(16:36):
an odd position for them to be in.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Repeat Danis Smithers the murder victim last. Although we don't
have a cause of death yet, I find it really
hard to believe she goes off to a wooded area
and just dies of natural causes. Smithers lasting alive, leaving
friends home in Monroe County, the same county where Coburger
lived with his parents in All Rights Full near all
(17:01):
Riceful before moving cross country to pursue a doctorate at WSU.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
That move proofs.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Fatal because only nine to ten miles away from his
apartment in Pullman. There at Washington State are the four
murder victims. What more do we know about Dana smithers
disappearance that night? Take a listen to our friends at
crimeonline dot com. In four five two.
Speaker 8 (17:26):
Smithers phone, car, keys, and medication were later found at
her house. After Smithers was reported missing, the Stroud Area
Regional Police Department conducted searches about a month after her disappearance.
The Pennsylvania State Police joined the search of the park
down the street from smithers home. Cadaver dogs were also
brought in, but nothing was found. Diana is about five
(17:48):
feet five inches tall weighs one hundred and sixty pounds
and has brown hair and brown eyes. She was last
seen wearing a red shirt with black pants and white shoes.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
What more do we know? Take a listenerw cut four
fifty four our friends at wb R E.
Speaker 10 (18:01):
Forty five year old Dana Smithers has been missing for
nearly a month now. She was last seen here on
Stokes Avenue. I spoke to her daughter in law about
what Dana was doing that day and when they decided
to call police.
Speaker 11 (18:13):
Someone doesn't just disappear, You don't just vanish out of
the air and are never seen again.
Speaker 10 (18:18):
Briann Farino is the daughter in law of Dana Smithers,
a Straudsburg woman who's been missing.
Speaker 11 (18:24):
Dana is very outgoing. She is the type of person
who will start up a conversation with you in the
grocery store and like you just made a lifelong friend.
She is very outgoing. She is very like she can
make anybody laugh and more.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
In four or five five from our friend Sydney Costas, Dana.
Speaker 10 (18:39):
Went to a street festival at a local restaurant with
her six year old daughter. Later that night, she walked
a few houses down to a friend's home on Stokes Avenue.
That's when she was last seen on a ring camera
after eleven PM. The next morning, her cell phone and
medication left behind at her home with no sign of Dana.
Speaker 11 (18:58):
Her purse, her her car, everything that she would bring
you would bring with you anywhere you go is at
the house.
Speaker 10 (19:06):
Dana's family reached out to Stroud Area Regional Police after
no one heard from her for two days. Dana was
last wearing black jeans and a burgundy shirt for Reino
says each day brings more discouragement and they need the
public's help to find her.
Speaker 11 (19:20):
Someone has to know something.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
You know.
Speaker 11 (19:23):
She has children, she has a small child, and she
deserves to have her mom in her life.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
To doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist joining us out of
the Atlanta jurisdiction, you can find her at Angela Arnold
MD dot com, dottor Angie.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
And once again, when the family approaches local police to
tell them Dana is missing, they say she is a
grown woman.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
She can go away for a night without calling her mother.
Why why and why.
Speaker 12 (19:55):
I mean, Nancy, can't these people watch your show and
learn something right.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
I don't know the answer to that, but I do
know that screwed this whole thing up?
Speaker 6 (20:06):
Sure?
Speaker 12 (20:06):
And can you imagine all the other things that it's
screwed up. It's just it's such an excuse and it's
not the way these things should be handled. Because, as
we have talked about time and time again on your show,
people have patterns of behavior. So if someone goes against
that pattern of behavior, then other people know it's a
(20:28):
problem that she's missing, and they want help as fast
as possible, and they should be able to get that help.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Patterns of behavior, patterns of behavior. Her mother and sister
go to police and they're told.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Hey, she's a grown woman.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Why don't they always say this, Cheryl? They say some
you know, derivative of she's probably off with her new boyfriend.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
We I mean, stop a family.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
When you look at she left behind medication that she
takes every day, She left behind her keys, she had
no money, she didn't take a wallet, she didn't take
a call, she didn't take a train to close, and
she left behind her seven year old. Those are patterns
you can't ignore.
Speaker 10 (21:10):
This is not somebody that just took a powder. Is
it somebody that just wanted to start.
Speaker 9 (21:14):
A new life.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
That is almost never decay and we.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Have another let's just say monkey wrench in the works.
To Joe Scott Morgan, Professor, friends and death investigator, we
can't get a co D cause of death. I could
listen to our cut four or five six wn EP.
Speaker 13 (21:36):
The coroner has identified the skeletal remains found last week
in the Poconawa's officials say the remains are that of
Dina Smithers from Strasbourg, who went missing last May. The
forty five year old woman was last seen on surveillance
video leaving a friend's home. As search at the time
came up empty, but last week, a decomposed body was
found in a wooded area of Stroudsburg near the on
(21:56):
ramp to Interstate eighty. The Monroe County Corner says more
tests needed to determine how Smithers died.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
And one more thing, Joe Scott Morgan take a listen
to our forensic crime online dot com.
Speaker 7 (22:06):
In four five three, Danis Smithers remains were discovered by
a Stroldberg Borough employee in a wooded area near the
Interstate eighty east on off ramp at Park Avenue. A
forensic odentologist helped confirm the identity of the badly decomposed
body using dental records, and autopsy has been conducted, but
results are pending further testing.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Okay, I don't mean this in a personal way at all,
but I don't put a lot of stock in forensic idontology,
in other words, identifying a defendant by his bite mark
on a person's body, because Joe Scott, the flesh, human
(22:47):
flesh is movable and pliant. It's like biting into jello
and claiming, Hey, I can see a bite mark that
I can now convict somebody with. No unless you've got
a really identifiable bite mark. Like remember Ted Bundy had
this weird tooth. If you look at the bite mark,
(23:09):
it looks like it's coming from the eye tooth on
the right side of his mouth, right beside his front
teeth on the right it just kind of sticks out,
you know, like people have that weird.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Little toe that sticks out on the side.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
No offense, Jackie, But I mean that's very identifiable. So
I don't put a lot of stock in trying to
convict somebody on foray odontology. But in this case, we're
not just talking about a bite mark. We're not talking
about a bite Mark. We're talking about identifying her on
her dental records, not some unusual tooth configuration.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Explain.
Speaker 5 (23:49):
Yeah, odentology as it applies to bite Mark is more
art than it is science. It's highly subjective, that's nicely put.
But however, when it comes to identifying bodies, it is
still very reliable because you know, we we go through
stages with our teeth throughout our lives where we have fillings,
we have restorations, we have extractions, we have rotations in
(24:10):
our teeth, replacements, bridges, caps, all those sorts of things
that make us uniquely identifiable through our identici. So in
that sense it is still highly reliable. I would have
thought that probably their fallback position would have been to
harvest DNA potentially from a tooth. They still had viable
(24:30):
biological sample in order to do that. But I got
to tell you, Nancy, what I'm truly interested in in
this case is going to be, you know, the big
mystery here cod cause of death. When we think about Coburger,
and we've been talking about him relative to this, we
know for a fact what the cause of deaths were
(24:53):
relative to those force souls out in Idaho, and it
was sharp forced injury that sometimes it's very difficult to
determine a relative to decomposed bodies. They have to they
have to go an extra mile for this, and what
I just break it down.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Please, you're making my head heart.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Oh, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
When a body you're not sorry, I know you. Hold on.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Let me put it in a nutshell. You've got a
decomposed body. You can't determine cod if it's a knife wound,
and you want to compare method of death to the four.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Victims in Idaho. You're looking for a knife wound.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
The only way you're going to find it on a
badly decomposed body is if the knife nicked a bone.
Speaker 5 (25:38):
Well, that all depends on how far down the road
it is. As far as decomposition. You can still appreciate
knife wounds even a month down range. And from what
I'm what I'm hearing, that's the neighborhood we're in. But
obviously they didn't see that. They haven't released that information.
It's difficult. If this will say, an asphyxial death, that
can be kind of difficult to do. Gunshot wound would
(26:00):
be kind of evident, particularly if it was to the head.
There's a lot of evidence here because.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
The bullet would go through the bank, well.
Speaker 5 (26:08):
Through the ball, through the skull. Perhaps, yeah, you find
the bullet, yeah, and hopefully hopefully out there, Nancy, they
would have gone around the body with a metal detector
to Hopefully they didn't just look down and say, okay,
we've got a decomposed body. It's adjacent to a highway.
Maybe it's just a homeless person that was camping out.
(26:28):
Hopefully that's not the tact that they took. I'm hoping
that they went out there and did grid search relative
to a metal detector to look and see if there
were any popped off rounds out there, any kind of
projectiles or spent brass that was left behind. Methodology here though,
is going to be key, I think, and also any
(26:50):
kind of videography relative to you guessed at this car
a hunday, perhaps how long how long had it been
did they capture all the CCT stuff, because it's not
like this was done in isolation out in farm farm country.
You know, Chris had mentioned that this is adjacent to
an interstate, this is a dump site, and he's right
(27:10):
on the money with that this is in fact a
dump site, not a lot of care was taken here.
No effort apparently was taken to bury a body here,
which you know that takes time and it takes tools.
There's no indication of that this is a surface recovery
that they have out there.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Hey, Nancy, Yeah, I want to clarify something, Dave Matt
Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, wasn't Dennis Smithers's.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Body found more like a year later, not a month later.
Speaker 6 (27:39):
It was a year later. She went missing. Last time
she was seen April twenty eighth and a year ago,
and then she was just recovered.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Okay, Cheryl McCollum jump in.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
I was just going to say, depending on the weather
and things like that, her clothing could still be somewhat intact,
and her shirt could have you know, shown potential stuff.
For sure, it would have injuries indicatively about it. You know.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Another issue that we keep hearing is that they're different
mos this was this occurred outdoors. We don't know that
Dana Smothers was killed outdoors. We believe this could have
been a dump.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Side time stories with Nancy Grace, I'm trying to.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Make comparisons and also distinguish.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Dana Smithers' death from the Idaho Students' murders.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
So we're looking very carefully.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
At the mos We don't know Smithers was killed outside. Again,
that was most likely a dump site. She may have
been killed inside at what structure, maybe the hotel that
we hear Chris mcdonna describe speaking of similarities, What about it, Chris.
Speaker 6 (29:08):
You know, Nancy. One other thing to consider also, just
to kind of jump hill on all the conversations, here
is right where this body is found, there is a
bank right next door, and if you look closely on
Google Earth, you can see what appears to be two
exterior video cameras, and then across the street is a
(29:31):
Sneco gas station, and then we have the hotel. So
to Scott's point earlier in Cheryl's, those are solid points
because thus the suspect, this individual wants to lower their risk.
If we talk about Coberger, because he just graduated hypothetically
with this degree in technology, and he went through so
(29:54):
many steps in the Idaho case, if it's him to
cover that track, it would really be a character for
him to kind of, you know, just go to this
step where you know he kills this individual at a
different location, which is one crime scene, then moves it
to a secondary crime scene, the body and dumps her
(30:17):
over the railing here just before he gets onto the freeway, hypothetically.
So I don't know if this is fitting him as
much as the behavior that we already know about and
it's in evidence, and this behavior that we're seeing here
with that hotel across the street. In my mind, it
(30:37):
opens up a variety of other options.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Okay, one thing, I want to know if this changes
anyone's opinion, Everybody jump in, not just Joe Scott Morgan,
although you did bring it up, Joe Scott, the time
of discovery of Dennis Smithers was a year later, not
a month later. Does that change your opinion regarding the
degree of composition of her body?
Speaker 5 (31:01):
Yeah, yeah, it does, And I misspoke. She would be
in an advanced state of decomposition and so there would
be little or no soft tissue left exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
So the dental records are a must unless you want
to extract DNA from you know, ali nuclei have.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
A hair or the tooth, or as Cheryl.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Pointed out, we may be able to get something off
the clothing. I don't know it's been out. The body
and the clothing have been outside for so long, I'd
be curious.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Is she still clothed or was she unclothed.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
We're trying to also establish where was Coburger on the
day she goes missing May twenty eight. Everybody jump in
with your knowledge. Okay, I need everybody we know. Jackie
pulled up his actual graduation program and he got his
(31:55):
major in criminology, not IT or tech, but monology. He
steeped in criminal behavior. He graduated May twenty one, twenty
twenty two at Dessales. Okay, then he goes across the
country to Washington State University and ultimately to Idaho. Now,
(32:19):
had he already left by May twenty eight to go
stake out a new apartment or even move to Washington
State University? He was already admitted, but his classes there
did not start until August. So what is his so
called air tight alibi? Also regarding m yes, we look
(32:45):
for the same fingerprint type of murder. But I mean,
let's look at Ted Bundy, Okay, because the comparisons which
you can see on our new investigation on Fox Nation,
parallels of evil between Bundy and and Coburger to surviving
female victims.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Speak to us.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
We believe Bundy had at least three surviving victims. We
know that it was in a college town and a
structure of a house as opposed to an apartment or
a high rise. The use of violent force female victims
in the dark of night. I mean, my list of
comparisons goes on and on and on. Stalking both getting
(33:32):
their grad degree, just always thinking are smarter than everybody else.
Coburger and Bundy both notorious for that. But for the
purposes of our conversations today, Ted Bundy murdered people in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Utah, Colorado.
So the disparate murder scenes do not concern me at all.
(33:57):
With Coleburger Pennsylvania, He's found in this same county where
his parents live before he moves to Washington State, That's
not a concern at all. Take a listen to our
cup four five seven regarding Ted Bundy's emo.
Speaker 8 (34:16):
Serial killer Ted Bundy admitted to killing more than thirty
young women and girls in a cross country spree that
spanned four years. That number is thought to be higher.
Bundy's victims came from several states, Washington, Colorado, Utah, Oregon, Florida, Idaho,
and California. It's not known when Bundy began committing crimes,
(34:38):
but Karen Sparks of Washington was brutally beaten and sexually
assaulted with a metal rod in nineteen seventy four. That year,
about one woman a month disappeared, many were college students.
In August nineteen seventy four, Bundy attended the University of
Utah Law School, and a number of the murders happened
around that time.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
And it brings to mind another serial killer, Israel Keys,
who murdered people all across the country. He actually kept
kill kits hidden across the country that he could use
to commit murders and hide evidence. Take ust in our
cut sixteen our friends at ABC.
Speaker 14 (35:18):
Key's traveled the country from Alaska to Vermont, looking for
people to kill totally at random, and funding his crimes
by robbing banks. The FBI has now retraced his steps
a long list of dates and locations since two thousand
and one, when they believe he may have killed repeatedly.
They so far have eight confirmed murders and rapes, including
(35:39):
a couple in Essex, Vermont. Four others in Washington State,
and one more on the East coast, with the body
hidden in New York.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Israel Ky's got on my radar when he kidnapped and
murdered a young Alaskan barista, Samantha Koenig, by forcing her
out of her coffee stand and sex is her brutally,
and then murdering her after a failed ransom attempt. Take
a listener cut eighteen from Investigation Discovery Dark Minds.
Speaker 15 (36:10):
His usual system was to travel far away from his home,
use cash to turn his phone off, leave no record
of his presence, and usually a small town where no
one knew him, to abduct, kill, and then to leave
to be hundreds of miles away from the scene by
(36:31):
the time that local authorities even knew that anyone was missing.
Speaker 16 (36:36):
The Courier murders Keys flew from Anchorage to Chicago, then
drove a rental car a thousand miles to Vermont. After
killing them, he drove another few hundred miles to dump
the murder weapon in a lake. Then he backtracked to
Chicago and flew home to Alaska.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
I chose that sound for a significant reason, and that
is Coburger studied these serial killers and years of saturating
himself and the criminal minds of killers, of serial killers
like Bundy, like Israel Keys. So committing a murder in
(37:15):
one jurisdiction and then going two thousand miles like Israel
Keys did to Washington State would not surprise me at all.
Think about it, Cheryl McCollum anty.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Not only did he study it, he seemed to mimic
at least some of what we're you know, witnessing. Where
he might have waited until he got to you know,
his new home in Washington State to commit the murders
in Idaho. We know he also, you know, had a
potential chance to really study Bundy. He followed Bundy Washington State,
(37:50):
then Idaho.
Speaker 9 (37:51):
That's something we know Bundy did.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
We know Israel Keys study Bundy. We know that he
had access to, you know, get to the point of
having a pH d. That not only did he study
these folks, he went as far as to have the
questionnaire about what it felt like, how did you choose
a victim? How did you you know, drive away? All
of those things. He's he's getting ready. It seems like
(38:14):
he's preparing and has knowledge on a much different level
than most people would even in a PhD program. He's
studying something very specific. So you know, choosing your victim,
how did it make you feel and how did you
get away?
Speaker 2 (38:29):
And to you Justicin's got Morgan, Professor Forensics at Jacksonville
State University, Death Investigator. I agree with what Cheryl just
said and I want to point out that Coburger. We
know that Brian Coburger knew to travel to cover his tracks.
Remember the night of the murders, he drove a long, winding,
(38:51):
circuitous route. I know because I drove the exact route
at night when he could have just driven not minutes
to his home in a pullman, he drove all the
way around and it's dark, there's nobody there. You go
for you know, twenty minutes without seeing a single light.
(39:12):
He chose to do that to you know, distance himself
from the murder scene. So we know that he is
again steeped in the study of serial killers.
Speaker 5 (39:25):
Is and you know the infamous loop that you mentioned
where CCTV, you know, images were captured and again we
go back to the Hyundai that is part and parcel
of what they do. You know, you even go back
to Sam Little, the infamous serial killer who traveled all
(39:46):
over the country, Nancy, as you well know, to avoid.
And it seems counterintuitive because a lot of these people,
when you hear about them, you know, they always say,
you know, the kind of the rote statement is always
they hunt in the areas that they know best, you know,
And that's kind of a Hollywood thing that's thrown out there.
And many of them do, but many of them don't either.
(40:06):
You can't apply that logic to every single case. Again,
I go back to this is.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
An area that with which he was familiar.
Speaker 5 (40:15):
Yeah, it was an area that that he was very
familiar with. And so but you know, we begin to
think about, you know, Idaho and out when he got
this appointment to wazoo out there, how familiar was he
with that area? Well, you got his phone pinging all
over the place, you know, prior to that. And let
me tell you one more thing. If he's a PhD student,
(40:37):
he's he's in his first semester out there. It needsy
when you're a PhD student, it's like being in an
indentured servitude state. How in the world he had time
to go and leave that campus and then cruise around
another university. It doesn't it doesn't go to this idea
of this kind of scholarly pursuit where you kind of
(40:59):
live this monacre stick existence, particularly first semester, because all
eyes are on you. So what's the focus here? The
focus is perhaps perhaps to target somebody, to target multiple people,
to learn how they live, where they live, what are
their activities going forward, and to begin to understand them,
particularly if you're a hunter.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Well put very well put out Tara Malick joining us
high profile lawyer out of the Idaho jurisdiction at Smith
and Malick. Tara, let's just get right down to it.
My interest as it stands right now in the Dennis
Smithers case, of course I want to find her killer
if in fact.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
She was a murder.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Of course, that goes about saying, but how it relates
to Brian Coburger. What is the law on the use
of similar transactions in Idaho as it relates to a
murder trial.
Speaker 9 (41:53):
Well, there's a four H four B rule, which is
other wrong crimes and acts, and with advance notice, the
state can file what's called a four O four bmotion
and say judge, we've got we've got evidence of you know,
a similar act or crime and they'll try and bring
this information. But depending on how this grand jury testimony
(42:16):
goes by the parents and what the grand jury finds,
I would expect to see emotion by the state to
introduce some of that evidence in and show similarities in
show patterns. I mean, the state here is going to
try and show that this was not you know, nothing
about what Coburger did was a mistake. You know that
(42:38):
perhaps with this woman, and we don't know enough yet,
there may be evidence that he was hunting her. I mean,
certainly she's close enough to his parents geographically that it
would be possible. The other thing that came to mind,
you know, and I had to go back and check
dates on this, but Coberger was shopping for knives as
of April twenty twenty two online on Amazon.
Speaker 6 (43:01):
You know.
Speaker 9 (43:02):
The timing as well with this woman disappearing May twenty
eighth is also another piece that's curious to me and
certainly suspect.
Speaker 12 (43:12):
Here.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Let's hypothesize, and again this is hypothetical. If Danis Smithers
was killed by Brian Coburger, there's one way that his
defense lawyer, a tailor, could keep that evidence out of
the Idaho trial, and that is by filing a speedy
(43:36):
demand for trial under the constitution, he's got to get
a speedy trial if he sticks with a demand. There's
no way that they're going to get the evidence together
in the Dana Smithers investigation in time to beat that
(43:57):
speedy trial demand. And as of right now, we believe
the defense is sticking with a speedy child demand.
Speaker 3 (44:05):
It's unclear.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
One last question to doctor Angela Arnold the stress of
starting a PhD program, the stress of moving. Does high
stress intensify a killer's desire to strike?
Speaker 12 (44:25):
You know, Nancy, I think we have to question whether
he was stressed. I think this was a plan on
his part to go out there and study. And I
believe he was hiding behind the PhD program. And he
was so arrogant and self assured that he didn't feel
like he had to be in class. He could remember
(44:46):
he got very high reviews to go to this program.
People thought very highly of him. He was hiding behind
this PhD program, and I don't believe he was stressed
by the actual PhD program.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
Wait as Justice and false Goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Breaking news in the prosecution of Brian Coburger, charged in
the four murders of four.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Beautiful University, Idaho students.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
In the last hours, we learn Coburger's mother has already
testified in front of a Pennsylvania grand jury and his
father is set to testify over their strenuous objections. What
does that have to do with, well, the murder of
(00:46):
a woman with three children, the youngest being aged seven,
Dana Smithers, who goes missing from the same county where
Coburger lived.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
With his family.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
They're in the Poconos just before he leaves for Washington
State University. Why are Coburger's parents being forced to testify
in a grand jury murder investigation in Pennsylvania. I'm Nancy Grace.
(01:22):
This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us
here at Fox Nation in series.
Speaker 3 (01:26):
XM one eleven.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
First of all, I want to go out to the
founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute, the
Starvenu podcast Zone seven, Cheryl McCollum. Cheryl, Of course, a
grand jury has two arms, investigative and charging. The charging
arm is when they indict you and hand down a
(01:48):
true bill or a no bill.
Speaker 3 (01:50):
They don't charge you.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
The investigative part is when they take a matter under consideration,
the subpoena, documents, object people, all sorts of evidence, and
then they decide if there should be a charge. We
don't know whether this grand jury is acting in a
(02:13):
capacity of investigating and ruling out Coburger or investigating preparing
to charge Coburger in relation to the murder of Dana Smithers.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
What do you make of it?
Speaker 4 (02:28):
I think they are taking out his alibi when he
says he has an airtight alibi. Let's say his parents
were his alibi. They're gonna talk to them individually and
make sure that their story lines up with his story.
I think this is absolutely investigator.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
All right, let's analyze the facts as we know them
with me an all star panel to make sense of
what we know right now. To Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,
Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on
Amazon at start of a Hitting You podcast Body Bags
with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, do you differ in
(03:11):
your opinion? What is the evidence? You have always maintained
that Coburger's first murders were not the Idaho students.
Speaker 5 (03:21):
Yeah, I have because it was such a flourish when
you think of it, you know that this individual would
go in and butcher these four students and at this
one time, and a lot of people will say, well,
he was just surprised. He wasn't anticipating. This guy doesn't.
This guy anticipates.
Speaker 3 (03:39):
Everything, surprised about what that.
Speaker 5 (03:41):
There were more than one victim, or that there were
more than one person that they were targeting, that he
was targeting. So I think that he had full awareness.
You know, he had been surveilling this area for some time.
Most of these people that start off are that have
their beginnings, you know, start off doing things like engaging
in things like peeping tommery or attempting to steal underwear
(04:05):
and those sorts of things. So I don't know that
it extends out to the idea that his first his
first interaction of something nefarious was necessarily a homicide. But
I think that there was certainly a dark side. Whether
or not this woman is one of his victims or
a potential victim of his, remains to be seen, because
(04:26):
we need more information from our autopsy.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Well, it's going to be tough because, as we know,
her remains were so decomposed, she had to be identified
through her dental records, so we also don't have a
cause of death. But speaking of underwear, to Chris mcdonna,
a direct her at the Cold Case Foundation, former homicide
(04:49):
detective and host of YouTube channel The Interview Room, Chris mcdonnah,
thank you for being with us along with Cheryl, Joe Scott,
and our other panelists. Speaking of underwe where I hear
where Joe Scott Morgan is going, and I agree yet
disagree with him. I can't do this is anecdotal, this
(05:11):
is not statistical. But I noticed in so many rate
files and murder files, if you look far back enough
into a defendants record criminal history, and you get their
juvenile records, you very often will see peeping tom trespassing,
(05:32):
minor offenses that were sex related, trespassing going into somebody's bedroom, trespassing,
going into their car and rifling through their lipstick and
their stuff they've got in their car. Peeping tom looking
into a woman's window while she's taking a bath or
changing clothes, or really just sitting there on the sofa
reading a book or watching TV. That's peeping Tom, and
(05:53):
it escalates. It progresses to stalking, to an aggravated battery,
to a rate to asdomy, to a murder.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
It progresses.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Like we go from pre k to graduating college, they
go from peeping Tom to a full on quadruple murder.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
That's what I'm talking about. Underwear, underwear, underwear.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Remember the incident of the neighbor in Idaho regarding her underwear.
Speaker 6 (06:22):
Yes, the underwear that was found in the car door
of the young college student next to where the victims
were ultimately discovered. Those are the types of incidents, Nancy,
that we've been talking about, where those are kind of
what we call pre incident indicators up to the big point,
(06:44):
up to the paint.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
I need you to have a big word for it.
As I often say to Jackie, Why use one word
when you could use fifty? Okay, what did you call it?
Pre incident?
Speaker 6 (06:55):
What indicators? Right? These are behaviors before I.
Speaker 3 (07:00):
Call them babysteps, yes, ma'am.
Speaker 6 (07:02):
And so these are behaviors that are before the crime.
And if we look at this particular incident now I
agree with Cheryl and both Scott. I mean where you
have a grand jury potentially as an investigative probe here.
But if we go back and we narrow this down
pretty quickly, if we have to give this Dana Smithers,
(07:27):
the woman that's been discovered there, we've got to give
her the same look as we did the four students
in Idaho. And the first thing that came to immediately
to me is the crime scene, which that's what we
call the disposal site. And it's a body dump is
(07:48):
what we would call it in Cheryl, and everybody here
knows what I'm talking about. It's right off of the
over a railing by a freeway entrance, and it's across
the street from a multi three story unit hotel. The
address is a Hunter Park Avenue in Bangor, Pennsylvania. And
if you go to Google Earth and you look at it,
(08:08):
and you look at the photographs of where the police
are searching, and then you look at this crime scene
as a whole, this area, the next thing you would
want to look at is what we call a contact site.
Where does a suspect and the victim cross paths in
(08:28):
relationship to where they were discovered. So, going back to
your point about the voyeurism role, here is he thinking
through you know, his fantasy, and the fantasy builds, it builds,
and he arbitrarily comes across this victim, you know, walking
(08:49):
or because it sounds like she left her house at
a certain point, et cetera. And so those are the
kind of things we want to look at here as
this information starts unfold further about Dana.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
Okay, let's talk about what we know about Dana, because
this is what I would be looking at. Let me
circle back to Cheryl McCollum before I go to Tara
Malik joining us out of the Idaho jurisdiction, veteran trial lawyer,
partner in Smith and Malik, former state and federal prosecutor.
I want to talk to her about what a grand
(09:22):
jury could be doing. Of course it's secret, that makes
it sound so nefarious, but all grand juries are in secret,
not just one grand jury, but all grand juries are
held in secret. Cheryl McCollum, I would be looking right
now at social media. I would be looking at whether
Coburger had any connection to her on social media. That
(09:44):
is how we think he first identified the four Idaho
slave victims, the girls. Anyway, that's what I would be
looking for. A similar mo modus operandi method of operation Cheryl.
Speaker 4 (09:58):
That's absolutely right. One thing that I'm curious about, Nancy.
We have three potential crime scenes. So when the victim
is leaving her friend's house, which is only three doors down,
she has her cell phone in her hand. Her cell
phone is then found in her home. So was he
laying in wait? Did he bum rush her? How did
he get her out of the house. We then he
(10:19):
must have had a vehicle. We would think to transport
her to the body disposal site, and then the dumping
site would be our third one. I would try to
connect somebody to all three of those sites. She was
called on ring camera. Possibly he was two or.
Speaker 3 (10:35):
His vehicle again, I would be combing if they still
have it.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
That is coming surveillance videos from that date May twenty eight,
twenty twenty two. Remember the four sleighs occurred November. See
May June, July, August, September, October, November, six months later,
coming all of these surveillance video at gas stations, at
the hotel motel that Chris mcdonnad just mentioned, and the
(11:05):
interstate ramps, at red lights, everywhere I could find it
to see who with whom she hooked up. Hi guys,
Nancy Grace here. Please join us now on Fox Nation
for a brand new investigation, Parallels of Evil the Bundy
(11:29):
and Idaho Killings. In this gripping special investigation, we bring
together an incredible panel of guests who analyze disturbing similarities
of evil between these horrible crimes. We speak with two
female Ted Bundy survivors, Karen Pryor and Cheryl Thomas, who
(11:52):
described their life before and after they were victims of
Ted Bundy. We also speak with the renowned private investigator
Bill Warner who worked the cases, and Ted Bundy's defense attorney,
John Henry Brown.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
We traveled to.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Moscow, Idaho, to speak with Washington State University students and
interview neighbors of Brian Coburger. One neighbor shares exclusive insights
about the suspect in the Idaho killings, Brian Coburger. Don't
miss Parallels of Evil the Bundy and Idaho Killings, streaming
(12:30):
now exclusively on Fox Stature Time Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
Now another thing.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Let's follow her movements, Follow her movements that evening, you know.
Speaker 3 (12:57):
Let's start with our cut four five one.
Speaker 7 (13:00):
Jackie neighbor, Terra Sioni says Dana Smithers came to her
home late the night of the festival. They only lived
a few houses from each other and the visit was
nothing unusual. Sioni tells Dateline that Smithers was smoking and
that was something she only saw Smithers doing when she
was nervous or on edge. Smithers invited Sioni to her home,
(13:20):
but Sioni declined as she was tired. Smithers went home
around eleven pm, her departure captured on Sionie's ring camera.
She had her phone in her hand. That was the
last time anyone saw Dana Smithers.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
So she was at the friend's house after a local
festival and she had only her phone because she walked
to the friend's house. She's a couple of doors downroom
where she Denas Smithers lived with her seven year old
daughter and her mother. Festival What Festival Take a lit
Star cut four five zero.
Speaker 8 (13:53):
Dena Smithers grew up in Stroudsburg, Pennsylvania with her sister Stacy,
who describes her sister as Gregary Yes. Stacy tells Dateline
that Smithers is fun loving with a very boisterous laugh.
Dina Smithers is a mother of three to a twenty
five year old son, a twenty three year old daughter,
and a seven year old daughter. The day she went missing,
Smithers spent the day with her youngest daughter and the
(14:16):
girl's father at a nearby festival. The father and Smithers
were no longer a couple, but maintained an amicable relationship
for their daughter. Back home, after the festival, Dina Smithers
went down the street to speak to her neighbor of
sixteen years, TIRACIONI.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
So she Dennas Smithers is at this festival with her daughter,
seven years old, her ex They say they have an
amicable relationship. They leave for the evening. They after spending
the day there, she goes home. Her seven year old
is at home with the grandma, Dana's mother. She walks
down the street to visit with friend Tara. She leaves
(14:55):
Tara's home and she spotted around eleven pm on the
ring doorbell. You can see her very clearly walking away
with her phone in her hand. Here is the rub.
Her cell phone and keys and her meds that she
never fell taking are at home. So where does she
go without her cell phone? And I want to go
(15:19):
out to Tara Malick joining us out of the Idaho jurisdiction. Tara,
a grand jury, as I said, is investigative and charging.
Speaker 3 (15:29):
What do you make of both the parents, both.
Speaker 2 (15:32):
Of Coburger's parents being called to testify from that Pennsylvania
grand jury.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
And I'd also like to point.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Out that the body is found in the same county
where the parents. Coburger's parents live there in the Poconos,
It's Monroe County, So that is a coincidence. It's really
hard to ignore.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
Do you agree?
Speaker 6 (15:53):
Yeah?
Speaker 9 (15:54):
I agree. I think it's very odd. I think their location,
their geographic location, the timing and when this occurred right
before Coburger was going off to Washington University, I think
all of that is highly suspicious and problematic for them.
What'll be interesting is, you know whether either one of
(16:15):
them took the fifth or fleeted the fifth during the
grand jury proceedings. Already, we've got some suspicions with Dad.
Why was he, you know, assisting Coburger as he drove
cross country back to Pennsylvania in a really weird and
circuitous kind of route. So I think it's a it's
(16:36):
an odd position for them to be in.
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Repeat Danis Smithers the murder victim last. Although we don't
have a cause of death yet, I find it really
hard to believe she goes off to a wooded area
and just dies of natural causes. Smithers lasting alive, leaving
friends home in Monroe County, the same county where Coburger
lived with his parents in All Rights Full near all
(17:01):
Riceful before moving cross country to pursue a doctorate at WSU.
Speaker 3 (17:07):
That move proofs.
Speaker 2 (17:09):
Fatal because only nine to ten miles away from his
apartment in Pullman. There at Washington State are the four
murder victims. What more do we know about Dana smithers
disappearance that night? Take a listen to our friends at
crimeonline dot com. In four five two.
Speaker 8 (17:26):
Smithers phone, car, keys, and medication were later found at
her house. After Smithers was reported missing, the Stroud Area
Regional Police Department conducted searches about a month after her disappearance.
The Pennsylvania State Police joined the search of the park
down the street from smithers home. Cadaver dogs were also
brought in, but nothing was found. Diana is about five
(17:48):
feet five inches tall weighs one hundred and sixty pounds
and has brown hair and brown eyes. She was last
seen wearing a red shirt with black pants and white shoes.
Speaker 3 (17:57):
What more do we know? Take a listenerw cut four
fifty four our friends at wb R E.
Speaker 10 (18:01):
Forty five year old Dana Smithers has been missing for
nearly a month now. She was last seen here on
Stokes Avenue. I spoke to her daughter in law about
what Dana was doing that day and when they decided
to call police.
Speaker 11 (18:13):
Someone doesn't just disappear, You don't just vanish out of
the air and are never seen again.
Speaker 10 (18:18):
Briann Farino is the daughter in law of Dana Smithers,
a Straudsburg woman who's been missing.
Speaker 11 (18:24):
Dana is very outgoing. She is the type of person
who will start up a conversation with you in the
grocery store and like you just made a lifelong friend.
She is very outgoing. She is very like she can
make anybody laugh and more.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
In four or five five from our friend Sydney Costas, Dana.
Speaker 10 (18:39):
Went to a street festival at a local restaurant with
her six year old daughter. Later that night, she walked
a few houses down to a friend's home on Stokes Avenue.
That's when she was last seen on a ring camera
after eleven PM. The next morning, her cell phone and
medication left behind at her home with no sign of Dana.
Speaker 11 (18:58):
Her purse, her her car, everything that she would bring
you would bring with you anywhere you go is at
the house.
Speaker 10 (19:06):
Dana's family reached out to Stroud Area Regional Police after
no one heard from her for two days. Dana was
last wearing black jeans and a burgundy shirt for Reino
says each day brings more discouragement and they need the
public's help to find her.
Speaker 11 (19:20):
Someone has to know something.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
You know.
Speaker 11 (19:23):
She has children, she has a small child, and she
deserves to have her mom in her life.
Speaker 2 (19:30):
To doctor Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist joining us out of
the Atlanta jurisdiction, you can find her at Angela Arnold
MD dot com, dottor Angie.
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
And once again, when the family approaches local police to
tell them Dana is missing, they say she is a
grown woman.
Speaker 3 (19:50):
She can go away for a night without calling her mother.
Why why and why.
Speaker 12 (19:55):
I mean, Nancy, can't these people watch your show and
learn something right.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
I don't know the answer to that, but I do
know that screwed this whole thing up?
Speaker 6 (20:06):
Sure?
Speaker 12 (20:06):
And can you imagine all the other things that it's
screwed up. It's just it's such an excuse and it's
not the way these things should be handled. Because, as
we have talked about time and time again on your show,
people have patterns of behavior. So if someone goes against
that pattern of behavior, then other people know it's a
(20:28):
problem that she's missing, and they want help as fast
as possible, and they should be able to get that help.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Patterns of behavior, patterns of behavior. Her mother and sister
go to police and they're told.
Speaker 3 (20:41):
Hey, she's a grown woman.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
Why don't they always say this, Cheryl? They say some
you know, derivative of she's probably off with her new boyfriend.
Speaker 3 (20:48):
We I mean, stop a family.
Speaker 4 (20:51):
When you look at she left behind medication that she
takes every day, She left behind her keys, she had
no money, she didn't take a wallet, she didn't take
a call, she didn't take a train to close, and
she left behind her seven year old. Those are patterns
you can't ignore.
Speaker 10 (21:10):
This is not somebody that just took a powder. Is
it somebody that just wanted to start.
Speaker 9 (21:14):
A new life.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
That is almost never decay and we.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
Have another let's just say monkey wrench in the works.
To Joe Scott Morgan, Professor, friends and death investigator, we
can't get a co D cause of death. I could
listen to our cut four or five six wn EP.
Speaker 13 (21:36):
The coroner has identified the skeletal remains found last week
in the Poconawa's officials say the remains are that of
Dina Smithers from Strasbourg, who went missing last May. The
forty five year old woman was last seen on surveillance
video leaving a friend's home. As search at the time
came up empty, but last week, a decomposed body was
found in a wooded area of Stroudsburg near the on
(21:56):
ramp to Interstate eighty. The Monroe County Corner says more
tests needed to determine how Smithers died.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
And one more thing, Joe Scott Morgan take a listen
to our forensic crime online dot com.
Speaker 7 (22:06):
In four five three, Danis Smithers remains were discovered by
a Stroldberg Borough employee in a wooded area near the
Interstate eighty east on off ramp at Park Avenue. A
forensic odentologist helped confirm the identity of the badly decomposed
body using dental records, and autopsy has been conducted, but
results are pending further testing.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
Okay, I don't mean this in a personal way at all,
but I don't put a lot of stock in forensic idontology,
in other words, identifying a defendant by his bite mark
on a person's body, because Joe Scott, the flesh, human
(22:47):
flesh is movable and pliant. It's like biting into jello
and claiming, Hey, I can see a bite mark that
I can now convict somebody with. No unless you've got
a really identifiable bite mark. Like remember Ted Bundy had
this weird tooth. If you look at the bite mark,
(23:09):
it looks like it's coming from the eye tooth on
the right side of his mouth, right beside his front
teeth on the right it just kind of sticks out,
you know, like people have that weird.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Little toe that sticks out on the side.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
No offense, Jackie, But I mean that's very identifiable. So
I don't put a lot of stock in trying to
convict somebody on foray odontology. But in this case, we're
not just talking about a bite mark. We're not talking
about a bite Mark. We're talking about identifying her on
her dental records, not some unusual tooth configuration.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Explain.
Speaker 5 (23:49):
Yeah, odentology as it applies to bite Mark is more
art than it is science. It's highly subjective, that's nicely put.
But however, when it comes to identifying bodies, it is
still very reliable because you know, we we go through
stages with our teeth throughout our lives where we have fillings,
we have restorations, we have extractions, we have rotations in
(24:10):
our teeth, replacements, bridges, caps, all those sorts of things
that make us uniquely identifiable through our identici. So in
that sense it is still highly reliable. I would have
thought that probably their fallback position would have been to
harvest DNA potentially from a tooth. They still had viable
(24:30):
biological sample in order to do that. But I got
to tell you, Nancy, what I'm truly interested in in
this case is going to be, you know, the big
mystery here cod cause of death. When we think about Coburger,
and we've been talking about him relative to this, we
know for a fact what the cause of deaths were
(24:53):
relative to those force souls out in Idaho, and it
was sharp forced injury that sometimes it's very difficult to
determine a relative to decomposed bodies. They have to they
have to go an extra mile for this, and what
I just break it down.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
Please, you're making my head heart.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
Oh, I'm sorry.
Speaker 3 (25:13):
When a body you're not sorry, I know you. Hold on.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Let me put it in a nutshell. You've got a
decomposed body. You can't determine cod if it's a knife wound,
and you want to compare method of death to the four.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Victims in Idaho. You're looking for a knife wound.
Speaker 2 (25:32):
The only way you're going to find it on a
badly decomposed body is if the knife nicked a bone.
Speaker 5 (25:38):
Well, that all depends on how far down the road
it is. As far as decomposition. You can still appreciate
knife wounds even a month down range. And from what
I'm what I'm hearing, that's the neighborhood we're in. But
obviously they didn't see that. They haven't released that information.
It's difficult. If this will say, an asphyxial death, that
can be kind of difficult to do. Gunshot wound would
(26:00):
be kind of evident, particularly if it was to the head.
There's a lot of evidence here because.
Speaker 3 (26:06):
The bullet would go through the bank, well.
Speaker 5 (26:08):
Through the ball, through the skull. Perhaps, yeah, you find
the bullet, yeah, and hopefully hopefully out there, Nancy, they
would have gone around the body with a metal detector
to Hopefully they didn't just look down and say, okay,
we've got a decomposed body. It's adjacent to a highway.
Maybe it's just a homeless person that was camping out.
(26:28):
Hopefully that's not the tact that they took. I'm hoping
that they went out there and did grid search relative
to a metal detector to look and see if there
were any popped off rounds out there, any kind of
projectiles or spent brass that was left behind. Methodology here though,
is going to be key, I think, and also any
(26:50):
kind of videography relative to you guessed at this car
a hunday, perhaps how long how long had it been
did they capture all the CCT stuff, because it's not
like this was done in isolation out in farm farm country.
You know, Chris had mentioned that this is adjacent to
an interstate, this is a dump site, and he's right
(27:10):
on the money with that this is in fact a
dump site, not a lot of care was taken here.
No effort apparently was taken to bury a body here,
which you know that takes time and it takes tools.
There's no indication of that this is a surface recovery
that they have out there.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
Hey, Nancy, Yeah, I want to clarify something, Dave Matt
Crime online dot Com investigative reporter, wasn't Dennis Smithers's.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Body found more like a year later, not a month later.
Speaker 6 (27:39):
It was a year later. She went missing. Last time
she was seen April twenty eighth and a year ago,
and then she was just recovered.
Speaker 3 (27:47):
Okay, Cheryl McCollum jump in.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
I was just going to say, depending on the weather
and things like that, her clothing could still be somewhat intact,
and her shirt could have you know, shown potential stuff.
For sure, it would have injuries indicatively about it. You know.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Another issue that we keep hearing is that they're different
mos this was this occurred outdoors. We don't know that
Dana Smothers was killed outdoors. We believe this could have
been a dump.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Side time stories with Nancy Grace, I'm trying to.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
Make comparisons and also distinguish.
Speaker 2 (28:43):
Dana Smithers' death from the Idaho Students' murders.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
So we're looking very carefully.
Speaker 2 (28:50):
At the mos We don't know Smithers was killed outside. Again,
that was most likely a dump site. She may have
been killed inside at what structure, maybe the hotel that
we hear Chris mcdonna describe speaking of similarities, What about it, Chris.
Speaker 6 (29:08):
You know, Nancy. One other thing to consider also, just
to kind of jump hill on all the conversations, here
is right where this body is found, there is a
bank right next door, and if you look closely on
Google Earth, you can see what appears to be two
exterior video cameras, and then across the street is a
(29:31):
Sneco gas station, and then we have the hotel. So
to Scott's point earlier in Cheryl's, those are solid points
because thus the suspect, this individual wants to lower their risk.
If we talk about Coberger, because he just graduated hypothetically
with this degree in technology, and he went through so
(29:54):
many steps in the Idaho case, if it's him to
cover that track, it would really be a character for
him to kind of, you know, just go to this
step where you know he kills this individual at a
different location, which is one crime scene, then moves it
to a secondary crime scene, the body and dumps her
(30:17):
over the railing here just before he gets onto the freeway, hypothetically.
So I don't know if this is fitting him as
much as the behavior that we already know about and
it's in evidence, and this behavior that we're seeing here
with that hotel across the street. In my mind, it
(30:37):
opens up a variety of other options.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
Okay, one thing, I want to know if this changes
anyone's opinion, Everybody jump in, not just Joe Scott Morgan,
although you did bring it up, Joe Scott, the time
of discovery of Dennis Smithers was a year later, not
a month later. Does that change your opinion regarding the
degree of composition of her body?
Speaker 5 (31:01):
Yeah, yeah, it does, And I misspoke. She would be
in an advanced state of decomposition and so there would
be little or no soft tissue left exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:10):
So the dental records are a must unless you want
to extract DNA from you know, ali nuclei have.
Speaker 3 (31:17):
A hair or the tooth, or as Cheryl.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Pointed out, we may be able to get something off
the clothing. I don't know it's been out. The body
and the clothing have been outside for so long, I'd
be curious.
Speaker 3 (31:30):
Is she still clothed or was she unclothed.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
We're trying to also establish where was Coburger on the
day she goes missing May twenty eight. Everybody jump in
with your knowledge. Okay, I need everybody we know. Jackie
pulled up his actual graduation program and he got his
(31:55):
major in criminology, not IT or tech, but monology. He
steeped in criminal behavior. He graduated May twenty one, twenty
twenty two at Dessales. Okay, then he goes across the
country to Washington State University and ultimately to Idaho. Now,
(32:19):
had he already left by May twenty eight to go
stake out a new apartment or even move to Washington
State University? He was already admitted, but his classes there
did not start until August. So what is his so
called air tight alibi? Also regarding m yes, we look
(32:45):
for the same fingerprint type of murder. But I mean,
let's look at Ted Bundy, Okay, because the comparisons which
you can see on our new investigation on Fox Nation,
parallels of evil between Bundy and and Coburger to surviving
female victims.
Speaker 3 (33:05):
Speak to us.
Speaker 2 (33:07):
We believe Bundy had at least three surviving victims. We
know that it was in a college town and a
structure of a house as opposed to an apartment or
a high rise. The use of violent force female victims
in the dark of night. I mean, my list of
comparisons goes on and on and on. Stalking both getting
(33:32):
their grad degree, just always thinking are smarter than everybody else.
Coburger and Bundy both notorious for that. But for the
purposes of our conversations today, Ted Bundy murdered people in Washington, Oregon, Idaho, Utah, Colorado.
So the disparate murder scenes do not concern me at all.
(33:57):
With Coleburger Pennsylvania, He's found in this same county where
his parents live before he moves to Washington State, That's
not a concern at all. Take a listen to our
cup four five seven regarding Ted Bundy's emo.
Speaker 8 (34:16):
Serial killer Ted Bundy admitted to killing more than thirty
young women and girls in a cross country spree that
spanned four years. That number is thought to be higher.
Bundy's victims came from several states, Washington, Colorado, Utah, Oregon, Florida, Idaho,
and California. It's not known when Bundy began committing crimes,
(34:38):
but Karen Sparks of Washington was brutally beaten and sexually
assaulted with a metal rod in nineteen seventy four. That year,
about one woman a month disappeared, many were college students.
In August nineteen seventy four, Bundy attended the University of
Utah Law School, and a number of the murders happened
around that time.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
And it brings to mind another serial killer, Israel Keys,
who murdered people all across the country. He actually kept
kill kits hidden across the country that he could use
to commit murders and hide evidence. Take ust in our
cut sixteen our friends at ABC.
Speaker 14 (35:18):
Key's traveled the country from Alaska to Vermont, looking for
people to kill totally at random, and funding his crimes
by robbing banks. The FBI has now retraced his steps
a long list of dates and locations since two thousand
and one, when they believe he may have killed repeatedly.
They so far have eight confirmed murders and rapes, including
(35:39):
a couple in Essex, Vermont. Four others in Washington State,
and one more on the East coast, with the body
hidden in New York.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
Israel Ky's got on my radar when he kidnapped and
murdered a young Alaskan barista, Samantha Koenig, by forcing her
out of her coffee stand and sex is her brutally,
and then murdering her after a failed ransom attempt. Take
a listener cut eighteen from Investigation Discovery Dark Minds.
Speaker 15 (36:10):
His usual system was to travel far away from his home,
use cash to turn his phone off, leave no record
of his presence, and usually a small town where no
one knew him, to abduct, kill, and then to leave
to be hundreds of miles away from the scene by
(36:31):
the time that local authorities even knew that anyone was missing.
Speaker 16 (36:36):
The Courier murders Keys flew from Anchorage to Chicago, then
drove a rental car a thousand miles to Vermont. After
killing them, he drove another few hundred miles to dump
the murder weapon in a lake. Then he backtracked to
Chicago and flew home to Alaska.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
I chose that sound for a significant reason, and that
is Coburger studied these serial killers and years of saturating
himself and the criminal minds of killers, of serial killers
like Bundy, like Israel Keys. So committing a murder in
(37:15):
one jurisdiction and then going two thousand miles like Israel
Keys did to Washington State would not surprise me at all.
Think about it, Cheryl McCollum anty.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Not only did he study it, he seemed to mimic
at least some of what we're you know, witnessing. Where
he might have waited until he got to you know,
his new home in Washington State to commit the murders
in Idaho. We know he also, you know, had a
potential chance to really study Bundy. He followed Bundy Washington State,
(37:50):
then Idaho.
Speaker 9 (37:51):
That's something we know Bundy did.
Speaker 4 (37:53):
We know Israel Keys study Bundy. We know that he
had access to, you know, get to the point of
having a pH d. That not only did he study
these folks, he went as far as to have the
questionnaire about what it felt like, how did you choose
a victim? How did you you know, drive away? All
of those things. He's he's getting ready. It seems like
(38:14):
he's preparing and has knowledge on a much different level
than most people would even in a PhD program. He's
studying something very specific. So you know, choosing your victim,
how did it make you feel and how did you
get away?
Speaker 2 (38:29):
And to you Justicin's got Morgan, Professor Forensics at Jacksonville
State University, Death Investigator. I agree with what Cheryl just
said and I want to point out that Coburger. We
know that Brian Coburger knew to travel to cover his tracks.
Remember the night of the murders, he drove a long, winding,
(38:51):
circuitous route. I know because I drove the exact route
at night when he could have just driven not minutes
to his home in a pullman, he drove all the
way around and it's dark, there's nobody there. You go
for you know, twenty minutes without seeing a single light.
(39:12):
He chose to do that to you know, distance himself
from the murder scene. So we know that he is
again steeped in the study of serial killers.
Speaker 5 (39:25):
Is and you know the infamous loop that you mentioned
where CCTV, you know, images were captured and again we
go back to the Hyundai that is part and parcel
of what they do. You know, you even go back
to Sam Little, the infamous serial killer who traveled all
(39:46):
over the country, Nancy, as you well know, to avoid.
And it seems counterintuitive because a lot of these people,
when you hear about them, you know, they always say,
you know, the kind of the rote statement is always
they hunt in the areas that they know best, you know,
And that's kind of a Hollywood thing that's thrown out there.
And many of them do, but many of them don't either.
(40:06):
You can't apply that logic to every single case. Again,
I go back to this is.
Speaker 3 (40:12):
An area that with which he was familiar.
Speaker 5 (40:15):
Yeah, it was an area that that he was very
familiar with. And so but you know, we begin to
think about, you know, Idaho and out when he got
this appointment to wazoo out there, how familiar was he
with that area? Well, you got his phone pinging all
over the place, you know, prior to that. And let
me tell you one more thing. If he's a PhD student,
(40:37):
he's he's in his first semester out there. It needsy
when you're a PhD student, it's like being in an
indentured servitude state. How in the world he had time
to go and leave that campus and then cruise around
another university. It doesn't it doesn't go to this idea
of this kind of scholarly pursuit where you kind of
(40:59):
live this monacre stick existence, particularly first semester, because all
eyes are on you. So what's the focus here? The
focus is perhaps perhaps to target somebody, to target multiple people,
to learn how they live, where they live, what are
their activities going forward, and to begin to understand them,
particularly if you're a hunter.
Speaker 2 (41:20):
Well put very well put out Tara Malick joining us
high profile lawyer out of the Idaho jurisdiction at Smith
and Malick. Tara, let's just get right down to it.
My interest as it stands right now in the Dennis
Smithers case, of course I want to find her killer
if in fact.
Speaker 3 (41:40):
She was a murder.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
Of course, that goes about saying, but how it relates
to Brian Coburger. What is the law on the use
of similar transactions in Idaho as it relates to a
murder trial.
Speaker 9 (41:53):
Well, there's a four H four B rule, which is
other wrong crimes and acts, and with advance notice, the
state can file what's called a four O four bmotion
and say judge, we've got we've got evidence of you know,
a similar act or crime and they'll try and bring
this information. But depending on how this grand jury testimony
(42:16):
goes by the parents and what the grand jury finds,
I would expect to see emotion by the state to
introduce some of that evidence in and show similarities in
show patterns. I mean, the state here is going to
try and show that this was not you know, nothing
about what Coburger did was a mistake. You know that
(42:38):
perhaps with this woman, and we don't know enough yet,
there may be evidence that he was hunting her. I mean,
certainly she's close enough to his parents geographically that it
would be possible. The other thing that came to mind,
you know, and I had to go back and check
dates on this, but Coberger was shopping for knives as
of April twenty twenty two online on Amazon.
Speaker 6 (43:01):
You know.
Speaker 9 (43:02):
The timing as well with this woman disappearing May twenty
eighth is also another piece that's curious to me and
certainly suspect.
Speaker 12 (43:12):
Here.
Speaker 2 (43:13):
Let's hypothesize, and again this is hypothetical. If Danis Smithers
was killed by Brian Coburger, there's one way that his
defense lawyer, a tailor, could keep that evidence out of
the Idaho trial, and that is by filing a speedy
(43:36):
demand for trial under the constitution, he's got to get
a speedy trial if he sticks with a demand. There's
no way that they're going to get the evidence together
in the Dana Smithers investigation in time to beat that
(43:57):
speedy trial demand. And as of right now, we believe
the defense is sticking with a speedy child demand.
Speaker 3 (44:05):
It's unclear.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
One last question to doctor Angela Arnold the stress of
starting a PhD program, the stress of moving. Does high
stress intensify a killer's desire to strike?
Speaker 12 (44:25):
You know, Nancy, I think we have to question whether
he was stressed. I think this was a plan on
his part to go out there and study. And I
believe he was hiding behind the PhD program. And he
was so arrogant and self assured that he didn't feel
like he had to be in class. He could remember
(44:46):
he got very high reviews to go to this program.
People thought very highly of him. He was hiding behind
this PhD program, and I don't believe he was stressed
by the actual PhD program.
Speaker 3 (44:59):
Wait as Justice and false Goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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