September 26, 2017 • 48 mins
Sarah and Jacob Hoggle were 4 and 2when they vanished 2 years ago. Catherine Hoggle told police she gave her kids away, but prosecutors accuse the Maryland mom of murdering them. Hoggle, who has been in a mental health facility since her arrest soon after they disappeared, has now been indicted for their murders and moved to a jail. But she cannot be tried until a judge decides she is mentally competent. Nancy Grace is joined by forensics expert Sheryl McCollum reporter Cheryl White.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account,
drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes.
Joined the search as an investigative reporter, uncovers new evidence,
interrogates new witnesses, traces down new leads in this riveting
new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray Saturday's seven
(00:23):
sixth Central and nine eighth Central on Oxygen the new
network for crime Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius
x M Triumph Channel one thirty two. A mixture of
grief and anguish for the family not knowing what happened
(00:44):
to two year old Jacob and three year old Sarah
in September. The children's mother, Catherine Hoggle, told Montgomery County
police that she left her children with a friend, but
she's never said who or where. The children's father, Troy Taylor,
believes she knows exactly what happened. Was murdered my children.
She was leaving Troy. Her main thing is sick with control.
(01:05):
That's her biggest sickness. She did not want him they
have the kids. Mental health professionals have repeatedly found Hoggle
not competent to stand trial. The stay can keep Katherine
Hoggle locked up for five years or why they try
to restore her competency. If she remains incompetent in five years,
she may have to be released. Two children, a two
year old little boy a three year old little girl missing,
(01:29):
nowhere to be found. Where are Jacob and Sarah? I?
Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories, Thank you for being
with us. It was just after eleven o'clock on a
Friday night that police then get a call from a
local residence in Germantown stating that Katherine Hoggle, the children's mother,
(01:54):
was spotted at Century Rock Boulevard. Immediately, police go there
and they find Katherine Hoggle, but her missing children were
nowhere with her. The children have been missing and reported
to be with their mom, Katherine Hoggle, but then police
find Katherine. Where our Jacob and Sarah? Well. Many people
(02:19):
gathered at a Chick fil A parking lot on Saturday night.
We're praying to find the little children and the hopes
that they would be found safe and sound. As of
right now, their disappearance still remains a mystery because the
mom insists that overwhelmed with motherhood, she gave the children away.
(02:44):
She gave her children away and refuses to tell police
who she gave them to. Let's start with what we
know with me, Cold Case Research Institute Director Cheryl McCollum.
Also with me Crime Stories contributor Cheryl White. First to you,
(03:07):
Cheryl McCollum. So much focus ended up on a local
Chick fil A in Maryland. Why needs because that's where
she was last seen on video. The mother that's right,
Katherine Hoggle was actually spotted instrumentance video walking out of
a Chick fil A very surreptitiously. Cheryl, I mean, I
(03:29):
have looked at this video over and over. Some people
actually describe it as sneaky. Um. What about her demeanor
made it sneaky? Well? I mean again, you know, you
you get dropped off, you're gonna go in, you say
you just want some of the drink, and then you
slip out the side door and leave the children's father outside.
(03:51):
I mean it's very sufficious. Wait wait wait, wait, wait
wait wait, Cheryl, take it from the beginning. Tell me
about that visit to Chick fil A and why it's
so sicknificant. Well, she tells the child, the children's father,
that she has dropped them off at a new daycare
and she just wants to go to Chick fil A
for something to drink. He drives her there. She goes
(04:12):
in the front door, presumably to go to the counter,
get a coke and come back, but no, she slips
up the side door. He does not see your leave.
So after a period of time he goes in the
Chick fil A to look for she's gone. So this
is what we know. That father is desperate and is
asking for help. He goes to the mom. He goes
(04:34):
to his wife, Katherine Hoggle. She says, oh, you know,
I enrolled I didn't like the last place. I enrolled
them in a new daycare, and I took him there,
and well let's go there. Now, can we stop and
get a drink at Chick fil A? So he goes, sure,
they stop at Chick fil A? And I'm looking at
the video right now. Let's post that on crime online
(04:55):
dot com place I can see her in the video.
She comes into us, like Cheryl mccllum is telling me,
kind of goes up to the counter and then leaves
out a side door. The husband's just sitting outside. Now
what we know is that the father is the one
who contacts police almost immediately and reports the mother and
(05:18):
the two children we're missing. It's interesting to me that
she also, Cheryl mccllum, and I'll tell you later why
this is so important, keeps her face turned away from
the surveillance video. I don't know if you notice that
or not, but okay, So she walks out of the
back door of Chick fil A and goes to a
Germantown transit center. What do we know happens after that?
(05:43):
Cheryl White is with me Crime Stories contributor. What do
we know, Cheryl, Well, all we know is that they
there are two tiny children missing. They've never been found. Now.
One part of the story from the Chick fil A
see is that they had been driving around. According to
the children's father, they had been he and Katherine, the
(06:06):
children's mother, had been driving around for a very long time.
She said, oh, I can't remember where this new daycare is.
That's when she said she needed something to drink, and
they stopped at the Chick fil A. So they've been
driving around for a while, and the father said he
was starting to get more than a little annoyed and worried.
(06:27):
As a matter of fact, he told her he was
driving her to the police stage unless she told him
where is the daycare? And she's like, gosh, you know,
I just signed him up. I can't remember where it is.
Just keep going, It's in here somewhere. Can I have
a coke? That's how that whole thing played out. But
then we've got a whole another story going on. Uh.
Sheryl McCallum, director of the Cold Case Institute. Police say
(06:52):
that that Sunday night, the mom takes the children to
her mother's house in Clarksburg, that she was going to
take her son Jacob for a pizza, but that when
she got back home three hours later to the mom's house,
he wasn't with her. She told the mom Jacob was
at the playmates house, right, So that's a whole another
(07:14):
story that she's telling. So police say Jacob was not
there and he hasn't been seen since. So which of
these stories are true? This all goes down while the
dad is out working. He has an overnight job, Cheryl,
like my dad used to have, so he's at work
when the mom says this happened, So what about that story?
(07:35):
We've got the story that she dropped them at a
new daycare. And then we've got this story that police
seemed to be confirming that Hoggle took the two babies
to her mom's house in Clarksburgh. Says she's taken Jacob
out for a pizza, comes back without him about three
hours later and says, oh, we stayed at the friend's house. Okay,
(07:55):
what do we know about that? Which of these, if
either are true? Well, we don't know. Oh, and that's
what's happening. You're having to build a case on live
and that's why this is so difficult. She's not telling
the truth ever. So you don't know where Jacob is,
you don't know the friends, you don't know whether aren't
(08:15):
police saying this, aren't police stating that she took the
children to her mom's house. Is that much true? I
believe that much is true, But I'm saying where Jacob
went from there, we don't know. We don't know what friends,
we don't know where she left him. And then it's
the next day on Monday. The dad has been working
on and he's like, where are the children, and she says, oh,
(08:37):
I put him in a new daycare. So, I mean,
if she's telling any of the truth, they did go
for pizza, there was a playmate, and she took them
to daycare the next morning. I don't think that's true.
I don't think any of that's true. But you know
as well as I do, when you have children and
their fathers involved, y'all have long discussions about daycare. That's
(09:01):
not a quick twitch. You investigate the daycare. You make
sure it's a good place, a safe place, and you
damn well know where the place is when you leave
your child there. Yes, I agree, That's why I don't
think any of this is true. Plus, I'm going back
to our last known signing. I mean the whole daycare.
That's the pile of bs alright, the B sameter is
(09:24):
like shrieking in my head. Um, So that never happened,
just for the reasons you just said. So, I'm already
back to what I know to be true. Police are
telling me she was spotted at her mother's house with
the children the night before, or at least one of them,
and that would have been on Sunday night. The dad
(09:47):
is at work, he works nights. She says she's taken
in for pizza. He's never seen alive again. So my timeline,
which is you know where I always start, Cheryl is Sunday.
That's they're not mentioning the little girl going, But that
is when, in my mind, that's when the children are
(10:08):
either sold, are given away, or worse. Now Cheryl McCullum,
we know the next day the dad is at the
Chick fil A and she leaves. What is her story
about giving her children away? She told everybody that she
(10:29):
gave them away, but she refused to say who she
gave them to. Cheryl White, Crime Stories contributor. She is
insisting that she gave the children away and quote they
are safe, but she refuses to reveal where they are. Why.
What reason do we speculate or what reason that she
gives she gave the two babies away. Well, some are
(10:51):
saying that there's trouble in the relationship between the father
and and Katherine, the husband and wife. There. Um, one
thing haven't talked about as the third child. So my
question is why the two younger children and not the
older child? Right, there is a third child. That child
is safe and sound. Um. We also have statements by
(11:14):
the father. The father tells police that while he's at
work on Sunday afternoon, Hoggle's own father dries them to
the grandmother's house in Gaithersburg. Hoggle then borrows her father's car,
it's a Grade two thousand twelve Nissan Rogue, and tells
her parents she's taking Jacob to get pizza. So now
(11:37):
I'm confirming again they're alive and well. On Sunday, Sunday afternoon,
the father and the grandfather and the grandmother place them alive. Okay,
So she disappears in the dad's Nissan rogue. She returns
three hours later, without the son or without food. Claims
(11:57):
she dropped the baby at the playmates house and then
came back went back to her home with her daughter.
That's the last time either of them have been seen alive.
Now let me ask you this, Cheryl McCullum, where the
children ever spotted on any surveillance video at a pizza
place or anywhere. No. Never tell me about the search
(12:22):
that ensued. Sheryl White. Well, it was a four day search,
and it was one of those intensive searches. You have
babies missing, and so they just mobilized the entire community.
It's police, it's family, it's friends, it's total strangers that
are searching everywhere, not only for the children, but for
(12:42):
Katherine as well, the mother too. She's missing at this
point as well. This is what we have for a description.
Sarah Hoggle is just the little girl is just three
ft six inches tall. She only weighs forty pounds, brown
eyes and brown hair. Brother j a cub three feet tall,
ways twenty five pounds. He has brown eyes and blonde hair.
(13:08):
Let me go ahead and give you the tip line now,
three oh one to seven nine eight thousand. Three oh
one to seven nine eight thousand, let's talk about Catherine
Hoggles description five six hundred and sixty pounds, brown eyes,
black hair, wearing blue jeans and a black tank talk.
That's what she was wearing with the children go missing.
(13:35):
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(14:43):
Two little children, Jacob and Sarah Hoggle are missing. Officers, police,
citizens k nines extensively search the area for your children
that Saturday. According to Montgomery County Police Department, I remember
very well these two go missing, and for the life
of me, I could not understand why the mother, Katherine Hoggle,
(15:07):
would not divulge where her children were. Now shrinks will
tell you that she was having trouble with her marriage
and was overwhelmed with three children. She says she gave
them away, gave them away and refuses to state where
they went. Why? Why was she refused to state? Could
(15:27):
it be because she hates her husband so much she
doesn't want him to have them. Is she af ray?
She's going to be indicted for neglect or giving away
her children. Let's take a careful look at her behavior.
She is the key to the location of these children.
With me, Cheryl White, Crime Stories contributor and Cheryl McCullum,
director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl, let's look
(15:50):
at her mommy's behavior before and after the children's disappearance. Absolutely, nay,
pre and post behavior are going to be key in
zero in her mind set here. So how was she
before the Sunday night Pezza and her mother's The things
that she said, the things that she did. Was her
(16:11):
focus on Jacob? Was she angry at him? Was she
angry at their father? Something was going on that now
people will be able to pick up and say, I
remember this. The post behavior, her wondering around saying that
she gave them away. She hasn't called the police, she
wasn't worried about him, she hasn't organized searches. All of
(16:31):
that's going to be imperative, and I hate to tell
you its rings of Casey Anthony Ah, I was thinking
the same thing I didn't even want to say the
words taught mom. How do you compare Hoggle Catherine Hoggle
to tot Mom Casey Anthony, who murdered I believe murdered
her little girl, Keilly. What about it, Shall McCollum. Well,
(16:54):
here you are. You have her, you know, going with
her own parents, riding in the car or having some
fine so get pizza. It sounds like a great normal,
you know evening. Next thing you know, oh, I gave
him away, gave them away? What just like top Mom,
Casey Anthony blames Zenia Gonzalez that pretend nanny was so
(17:16):
freaky about that is she had been She taught Mom
had been looking at an apartment, uh Sawgrass on Sawgrass Road,
I believe it was. And police go to that apartment
to check out her story and Nieda Gonzalez had actually
been there before Todd Mom and signed in, signed in
(17:38):
that she was going to look at a model apartment.
So top Mom goes there, sees the name that's where
Zenya Gonzalez came from. Correct, And it turned out to
be a real person whose name was ruined by her
connection to Top Mom, Casey Anthony and the disappearance of Kelley.
She was forever connected to that, and it also waked
(18:00):
but a whole lot of Yeah, they defines the night
of Gonzalez, who had never met Casey Anthony in her life.
So here we've got the same thing as Cheryl McCollum
is pointing out, a fabricated story and a refusal to
divulge where the children really are. Now by this time
(18:20):
there was a search. After Katherine Hoggle leaves the chick
fil A. There is a man hunt or should I
say a woman hunt for Katherine Hoggle, who to this day,
to this moment that you're hearing us here on Syrius
Sex in two, if still the key to the case,
we still don't have the children. Take a listen to
(18:42):
the guy that fortuitously spots Katherine Hoggle. Listen. It was
a little after eleven fifteen in the evening. Nicholas Stewart
knew there was something unusual about the woman wondering about
the parking lot of his Germantown complex as he went
to take out the trash, and he couldn't put his
finger on it at first. I mean, I see her
(19:05):
walking towards me. I didn't think anything. Maybe it was
just a resident. Um, I see her pacing back and forth.
But the woman's behavior grows more unusual, especially, he says,
and she went into a breezeway in the complex. He says,
she seemed lost and confused. She went like this. She
saw me. She went like this, and then I turned around,
and then I see her come out, and she looked
like this, and then walked here and then just stopped.
(19:28):
He decided to keep an eye on her, and they
actually exchanged words or something. Told me to just keep looking,
and she asked me for the time. I said, I
do not have the time. My phone is actually dead
at the time, and she said, thank you. Um, my
phone is dead too. Stewart says he ran to his apartment,
looked at the flyer again and realized it was indeed
Catherine Hargell, the woman lasted scene earlier in the week
and calling on camera and surveillance footage. I actually watched
(19:52):
one of the surveillance videos of her ten minutes before
I spotted lady. Steward says he ran to a nearby
police station to get help. They got to the scene
at Century Boulevard It in Crystal Rock, driving took Hoggle
into custody, so you know, Sheryl White. Sheryl McCollum. It's
just dumb luck really, because this guy had just looked
at a flyer that was posted, I believe above hit
(20:15):
the mailboxes at this apartment complex or this this location structure.
He sees the flyer of the two children and Katherine Hoggle.
Then he less than a minute passes he sees Hoggle
and he he says, she was, you know, acting covertly,
just like you said she did in the Chick fil
(20:36):
A Sheryl McCollum. He goes up to her. They have
a conversation. He says, um, well, I can't use my phone.
It's dead. She goes, oh, mind's dead too. She seemed
absolutely perfectly normal, Ryl White, completely normal. One thing missing,
make that too, the children, Sheryl White. Yeah, the children
(20:59):
are still missing. Uh then and now and she she
all she'll say is that they are safe and that
there with someone else. And there was a chase, a
short chase before police could apprehend her, which I find
interesting that she ran. Interesting, Sheryl McCollum. When your children
are missing, as Sheryl White says, the guy immediately calls
(21:24):
the police the number on the flyer. Police show up
a chase ensuits. If my children are missing and laying
on the front steps of the police station, I'm laying
there screaming. She runs from police, Cheryl. She runs from police,
and when they get her, she has snatched down one
(21:47):
of the flyers that had been posted. She had taken
it down so nobody could see it, and it was
in her hand, Cheryl when cops get her after she runs,
Cheryl wanted away. She doesn't want the children fail, she
doesn't want to be captured herself, and again, holding that
(22:07):
fire in her hand tells you she didn't want anybody
else to find it either. This is where the search
for the babies takes a very unusual turn. Of course,
Hoggle has taken into custody and questioned about the location
and her children. Take a listen to what her husband
says regarding the children's disappearance. I want to thank all
(22:30):
of you in the community and in the media for
all your support you have shown me, myself, Sarah and Jacob,
my family throughout the entire process. As I'm sure you understand,
it's been a very emotional time for myself and and
others who love my family and my children. Uh, I
just decided to go ahead and read a prepared statement
(22:51):
and then not take questions today. UM, Katherine Hoggle has
murdered my children, and I hope there and Jacob get
the justice they deserve. I have held out hope that
something else may have happened, as I think that any
parent under these circumstances would, But it has always been
a faint hope. And I know now with the passage
(23:13):
of time, that Catherine killed my babies for the From
the very beginning of this process three years ago, the
Montgomery County Police Department and States Attorneys Office have been
very consistent in their theory on this case. I know
that they are right, and I fully support the charges
handed down here today. I also knew they were UM.
(23:34):
I knew there was a good chance they're right from
the beginning. In addition to the investigation by the local police,
with the support of the family and of family and friends,
I've had my own professional private investigator study the facts
and UM, this isn't part of the rim part. But UM,
in the beginning, they came in with an open mind.
After investigating, they came to the same conclusion as the
(23:55):
state's turns off the end. The police UM actually hired
two or three of I'm kind of like getting the
second opinion from a doctor, and they all came back
the same. Everyone who has reviewed this agrees that Katherine
murdered Sarah and Jacob. I'm sure Jerry will agreed, and
I hope Sarah and Jacob get their day in court. UM.
(24:17):
I don't know if that's somebody's I'm sorry. I want
again to express my sincere thanks to the community and
UM to you the media for all your support and
everything you guys have done. Uh. Please keep my family,
Sarah and Jacob in your prayers. I hope with the
charges handed down today, we're moving closer to getting justice
for them, and that's what it needs to be about,
(24:39):
from beginning to end, and in justice for my babies.
Cheryl White with me Crime Stories contributor Cheryl McCollum, Director
of the Cold Case Research Institute. Cheryl McCollum. What I
mean this is right after she is brought into court
by police and she is questioned under oath by the
judge about where are your children and she still refuses
(25:02):
to say. The husband says to conflicting statements one he
believes his wife had been drugged when all this happened. Okay,
and too that she's acting that. She says she wants
to be found incompetence so she can't be charged with
giving away her children. Cheryl McCullum, Now that I think
(25:22):
we're getting somewhere, because Nancy, she's been play acting the
whole time. She pretended to take Jacob for pizza, she
pretended they read a new school. She pretended to go
by a coach. That's what she's good at. And when
they get closed to her, she tries to escape in
some way. She hides her face, she hides her identity.
She runs from police. The breaking news that Catherine Hoggle,
(25:46):
the mother of the two missing children, was located in
Germantown there in Maryland and immediately taken into custody after
she leaves them on a brief foot chase. When they
get her, Mommy is clutching a flyer that has been posted,
tearing it down so nobody else can see the children
or the tip line number. She refuses to say what
(26:08):
happened to the children. At this moment, police still searching
for the two children, Sarah and Jacob. Then they give
a statement. They are extremely concerned for the children's welfare.
She has taken us all down the garden path, Cheryl McCullum.
(26:28):
Just hours after she slips out the back door of
a Chick fil A, she boards a county bus near
that restaurant, goes down Route one eighteen Germantown Road between
Interstate to seventy and goes to the Germantown Commons shopping center.
She takes that bus after giving the husband a slip
(26:49):
at Chick fil A. She rides the bus to the
transit center I told you about to Lake Forest Mall
and gets off. She sited there on videotel ape and
she is seen going in and out of various locations
in that shopping mall. Cheryl McCollum. Then police go there.
(27:10):
They go there to retrace her steps, hoping to find
a trace of the children. Instead, they found the contents
of her pocket book thrown in a bathroom in the building.
What does that mean, Cheryl? What's she trying to get
rid of her identity? Who she is so when somebody
catches her, even if it's in another town or city,
(27:32):
she can make up a name and a date of birth.
It's not gonna be her. She's got gonna exist anymore.
You know, this plot seemingly gets more and more intricate.
So we have her, let's retrace it, Cheryl and Cheryl,
Cheryl White and Chryl McCullum. We have her with the
children alive at her mother's house. We have her father,
(27:53):
the children's grandfather, giving her his car. She puts Jacob
in the car, claiming they're going for pizza, coming back
without him three hours later, stating that he stayed with
his friend. She takes the baby away, claiming they're going home.
The husband's at the night shift. Whoever she gave baby
(28:15):
Jacob too that night or whatever she did with him.
She takes the little girl. She leaves with a little girl.
The little girl has never seen alive again. The dad
gets home from work where the children, Oh, I took
him to a new daycare. Nobody's seen the children since
the night before Sunday night. They start looking for the daycare,
(28:37):
can't find it. She goes into Chick fil A she
wants to coke. She slips out the side. She then
eludes her husband who's sitting in the parking lot, takes
a bus, gets away from him and goes to a
shopping center. She goes in and out of several locations.
Police find out about it. They go a retrace her steps,
(28:59):
they don't find her. They find her pocketbook has been emptied.
Why flyers Over ten thousand flyers go up all over town.
A guy is looking at the flyer over a mailbox,
then turns around to see Katherine Hockle. She has a
perfectly normal saying conversation with him. His girlfriend immediately calls police.
(29:26):
They come. She leads them on a brief but fast
paced foot chase. When they get her, she has torn
down the flyer of the children with the tip line.
She's taken to police headquarters. She's questioning court. She refuses
to say where the children are, and the husband insists
(29:47):
she's acting. Listen to what he says one more time.
Katherine Hoggle has murdered my children, and I hope Sarah
and Jacob get the justice they deserve. I have held
out hope that something else may have happened, as I
think that any parent under these circumstances would, But it
has always been a faint hope, and I know now
(30:08):
with the passage of time that Katherine killed my babies
for the From the very beginning of this process three
years ago, the Montgomery County Police Department and States Attorney's
Office have been very consistent in their theory on this case.
I know that they are right, and I fully support
the charges handed down here today. I also knew they
(30:29):
were UM, I knew there was a good chance they're
right from the beginning. So where is Jacob? Where is Sarah?
Tipline three zero one to seven nine eight thousand. Then
and another twist, Cheryl White Crime Stories contributor. She now
claims she's paranoise schizophrenic. Okay, her husband says she's acting.
(30:57):
The children are still missing. When did that come about?
So now we see a mental defect. I mean she
told her husband she wants to be found incompetent so
she can't be charged or go to jail. What do
we know about her claims that paranoise get sophrenia Cheryl White, Well,
she has a history of mental issues. Here's Here's something
(31:18):
I find extremely odd is that shortly after she was
taken into custody, she told her family members that she
would take police to her children. Um, but she had
to do it personally, So She went to court then
to get a judge's okay that she could take them
(31:41):
to the children. But that's not what ended up happening. Well,
when she got to court, her attorneys said Hoggle is
in no mental condition to make the claim to take
them on the journey to the children, and that in fact,
she did not want to help, and that her condition
(32:01):
was so deteriorated she should not even be interrogated. Wow,
that's convenient, Cheryl McCullum. So she says, okay, okay, I'm
tired of jail. Let me out and I will take
you to the children. You know what, do you remember
that wild goose chase that top Mom Casey Anthony led
police on in the search for uh Zanina Gonzalez. They
(32:26):
went all over town. They went to sell aggress apartments.
She claims she worked at Universal Man she had it down.
She even got to the security entrance and told them
that she worked there, and they're like, wow, we can't
find you on the employee list, and she goes, yeah,
I did work here. Hey, you can call my my
co employees. And she gave names and phone numbers extensions
(32:49):
her names of people that worked at Universal and the
security was calling them, and so police are onto so
they take her in and and they get all the
way up to the door and they're going into Universal,
and she says, okay, ah, you got me, like it's
some kind of a game. I do not really work
(33:10):
at Universal anymore. And all this time she had been
sitting on her parents sofa, eating their food out of
their fridge and letting them take care of the baby,
claiming she worked at Universal. She would even put on
an Universal outfit with tags old I D tags and
leave to go lay up at her boyfriend's apartment. So
(33:30):
it's such a charade. And Cheryl McCullum, it sounds like
the same thing with Katherine Hoggle. Yeah, I think Katherine's
overplaying her hands a little bit, because you know Nancy
better than me. Schizophrenic doesn't mean you don't go to jail.
The one reason you're gonna stay out of jail is
if you can demonstrate you don't know right from wrong. Well,
(33:51):
she's already to me proven beautifully she knows what she's
done is wrong again, from trying to hide her face
to running from the police, to want to involve the
police and not calling number one one to take him
down the poster. She knew. So now this is her
latest game. Well, let me tell you a little story. Okay, Alan, dieca,
(34:13):
hear you groaning in the background, But Alan, I want
some My boss the longest serving district attorney in the
country at that time it was Louis Slayton. And oh boy,
let me tell you. Louis Slayton was like a grandfather
to me. You know, when I first started prosecuting, women
(34:34):
and minorities were not in many jurisdictions allowed to try cases.
They would be relegated to child support recovery. You know,
deadbeat dads Cheryl McCullum, remember this. Or they'd have to
go to ju V g V g V court where
there were no juries um, or you'd write appeals. Not
Mr Slayton. If you could try a case, he'd put
(34:56):
you in front of a jury. So I manage to
beg my way in to the courtroom. And I had
a guy one day, let's just slate and call him.
He goes, we got a problem. I'm like, what what
is he? Guys, I want you to handle this case.
Come out of the courtroom and focus on this case.
I'm not great. There was a woman who had apparently
(35:20):
committed suicide. And I didn't know exactly what he wanted
me to do, but you know, I started with going
to the crime lab and looking at the evidence. And
I met with this old guy. He had an accent
much worse than mine, believe it or not, and we
put the bed sheets. She had was naked and had
(35:44):
laid down in the bed and shot herself in the head.
And we were just standing there looking at them, and
he had a light behind them. We were looking at them.
They were hanging up like a poster, and we noticed
he noticed, I'm going to give him the credit, there
was a blood spatch her underneath where the pillow had been. Obviously,
(36:07):
it was not a suicide. First of all, women, if
you look at the method and assessment of homicide and suicide,
you would know it's extremely rare for a woman to
shoot herself in the head or the chest, but specially
the head. Second, never, never, never, very rarely does a
female commit suicide without her clothes on. Don't ask me why,
(36:31):
this is just what I know by statistics. So right
then we knew, and as I had suspected, this was
no suicide. Okay, so immediately start looking at the husband.
I fine do a whole handful of subpoenas and start
stalking his friends and colleagues. I mean sitting out in
(36:52):
the parking lot waiting for them to come out of
work behind cars. And when they come out of hand him, uh,
subpoena ducas chicke And which is is paying it for documents?
For any letters he has written them? Well, guess what
he writes. Simmons says, um, something about they're gonna find
(37:13):
if they decide if they believe that I killed my wife.
I'm going to make sure they think that I'm crazy,
and I'll just stay in the crazy house for a
few years making sand sculptures and you know how you
pour sand into a little bottle and make a picture
and at the end and then I'll get out and
(37:35):
keep it cool and ps and don't kill your wife. Okay,
you know we had no money. I had to pay
my own money to go to Kinko's to turn all
of his letters into giant posters. The joy I felt
when I put up all those posters in the courtroom
(37:56):
and would go through each one word for word. I
was so happy. So here you go. Now she's paranoid schizophrenic. Um.
I still don't know where the children are. The most
recent development is there has been a charge, a charge
(38:19):
against the mother, Katherine Hoggle, that has gone down in
the last weeks. The schizophrenic, allegedly schizophrenic mother thirty years
old of two missing children has now been charged with murder.
Katherine Hoggle, aged thirty, has been indicted on two counts
(38:39):
a first degree murder, accused of killing her two year
old son and her three year old daughter. I want
to go to you, Cheryl McCollum. They've never been found.
The people she allegedly gave her children to have never
(39:00):
been found. How do we know they weren't sold. How
do we know she didn't just give them away? There's nobody.
How is she charged with murder? Cheryl? Well, it's a
nobody homicide case, Nancy. And what we do know is
at this point years have gone by, the children would
(39:23):
have started school to whoever she gave the children to
would have had to take them to school, to the doctor,
other places. At this point, they know a manhunt has
been going over for the children. This couple, if they existed,
would have come forward in some way. They haven't done
anything wrong. But they're not raising two children with you know,
(39:43):
no paperword, no birth certificate or anything like that. It's
not true. So again, common sense tells us by her actions,
trying to escape all the time, trying to hide her identity,
trying to hide out in a mental institution, that she
has done something horrible with these two children. We are
posting right now on crime online dot com an artist impression,
(40:08):
an age progression of what the children would look like today,
if alive. We're getting this from National Center of Missing
and Exploited Children, and you can see that on crime
online dot com. As of right now, these two children
have been deemed murder victims. Do we know if any
(40:32):
evidence was found, such as blood, um, their clothing, a
shallow grave, anything to suggest that they are dead? Sheryl White, Well,
what I do know is that state's attorney, John McCarthy says,
we would never have filed the charges indicted her onto
murder charges if we didn't feel we have a case.
(40:55):
Take a listen to what the state attorney in Montgomery
County has to say. Under Maryland law, an individual charged
with only misdemeanors can only be hospitalized and detained and
a formal hospital slash prison setting for a maximum period
of three years. She has been incarcerated in that facility,
(41:19):
essentially receiving evaluations on a regular basis for her competency
to stand trial over the last three years. The deadline
for those three years came today. Uh, the court today
would have had to dismiss the charges against her, and
we would have had to release Miss Hoggle as a
(41:40):
matter of law because she could not be held any
longer on those misdemeanors. Therefore, we sought an indictment from
the grand jury yesterday charging her with the two counts
of murder. Again, there was no advantage to moving forward.
I will tell you that as long and I think
I publicly said this before up, as long as there's
(42:00):
not an indictment, you are allowed to continue to use
a grand jury for the purposes of a criminal investigation.
Once you indict a case, you lose that option, You
lose that right. That was an investigative tool that we
had available to us. It did not make any sense
if she remained incompetent to lose that tool well because
(42:22):
of the law that would have dictated she would become
free without any ability for us to check on her
whereabouts or her medical station. It became incumbent on us
to take the additional step to seek the indictment for
the two counts of murder that we did yesterday. The
laws now changed in terms of how long we can
halt her for the purposes of the evaluation. Miss Hoggle
(42:45):
can now be held five years now charged with the
felony for the purposes of the doctors to attempt to
restore her to competency. Composing just basically means you have
to have a basic understanding of the nature of the
charge it against. You don't have to be able to
assist your attorney in defending yourself. This has nothing to
do with her guilt or innocence. Like I am tremendously frustrated,
(43:09):
and I've said this in court before. Am I frustrated
that we were here three years into this and she's
not been a restored to competency? Absolutely? I am Why
am I frustrated? Well, she's been Look, this is a
woman who had a and again I'm talking about things
that are in the public record. This was a young
woman who had had prior hospitalizations, She had been identified
(43:29):
with psychiatric issues prior to the disappearance of her kids.
She had been in various hospitals, she had been restored
to competency before through psychotropic medications and reintroduced back into
the community. I had every hope when she went to
purpose three years ago that we would have that same
thing occur. She would fall into the care of psychiatrists,
(43:50):
they would determine what her need was, and they would
begin through a regiment of medications to restore competency that
would allow us to move forward. So I am tremendouslyrustrated,
as I can tell you. Look, I'm sure any member
of the family on either side of this will tell
you above all, they are tremendously frustrated. They knew the
(44:10):
psychiatric history, they knew about the restoration of competency in
other cases, and they want to know why hasn't the
hospital been able to do that. It's a frustration for
all of us. But again, we've just taken steps legally
to give them additional time to do that. And I
don't think we had any other option but to seek
the indictment we saw it yesterday. It was the only
(44:31):
way to adequately I think protect the public and protect
some individual people in particularly back to Cheryl McCollum, director
of the Cold Case Research Institute Cheryl For the longest time,
Katherine Huggle stays at a cushy psych facility repeatedly attempting
(44:52):
to escape, and then when she's caught trying to escape,
she says she wants to go see her children, and
she'll leave police to her children in order or to
get out. What do you make of that, Sheryl McCollum,
The key is eight times she is attempted to escape.
If she wanted her children to be okay, she would
tell them where to go get them and let the
children be So what does this say to you? Every
(45:14):
time she wants to get out she says she'll lead
the police to her children. That doesn't sound crazy to me.
It sounds like a stunt to me. That sounds like,
if you let me out, I will do something for you.
That's the contortion. Another issue, to Sheryl White Crime Stories contributor,
is this charge has just come down because the legal
(45:34):
time limit the statute of limitations on the three misdemeanors
the child neglect misdemeanors that she had been charged with
initially were about to give out, which means she would
have walked free, Okay, right after they go missing. You've got, like,
you know, a year or so on the statute of
(45:56):
limitations on misdemeanors is one to three years, and once
that ends and you haven't been prosecuted, you walk free,
of course, unless you filed a demand for speedy trial,
which she did not. So she's about to walk free
and this murder charge comes down. Is that the way
it goes, Sheryl White, That's the way it goes exactly.
So time was running out. So she was indicted on
(46:20):
two counts of murder for the two missing children, and
now she can be held for five years under medical care.
Now that she's been indicted on the murder charges, she
can only be held for five years if she is
deemed incompetent. So I guess the first step Cheryl McCollum
(46:41):
is going to be a competency trial that is not
necessarily a trial on the merits of the case. Is
simply to determine whether she is competent. That does not
go to insanity. It's very simply, can you aid your
lawyer during your trial? Are you competent enough to help
(47:01):
your lawyer get through the trial? That's all this year.
He is Cheryl, That's all it is. And I think
it is imperative that the prosecution get their own doctor
to examine her, not the folks from this institute that
she's been at. Why do you say that, because you
need to have somebody that is just seeing her in
evaluating her from right now, not the people that have
(47:23):
already bought into her game. They there, they already have
their mind made up. The search for the children goes
on as of right now, these two children still missing.
Last seen when her husband wakes up to find all
three of them no longer in their home. She comes
(47:44):
back in the minivan without the children. Where where are
Jacob and Sarah? Are they dead? Are alive? Nancy Grace
Crime Story, signing off, goodbye friend. Do you find yourself
(48:08):
obsessing over unsolved mysteries? Do you wish there was a
group of people just like you to talk motives and
alibis with. If so, join the Crime con Cold Case
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(48:28):
and it's free to join thanks to Oxygen. Sign up
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February two thousand four, Maura Murray empties her bank account,
drives four hours from school, crashes her car, and vanishes.
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new investigative series, The Disappearance of Maura Murray Saturday's seven
(00:23):
sixth Central and nine eighth Central on Oxygen the new
network for crime Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius
x M Triumph Channel one thirty two. A mixture of
grief and anguish for the family not knowing what happened
(00:44):
to two year old Jacob and three year old Sarah
in September. The children's mother, Catherine Hoggle, told Montgomery County
police that she left her children with a friend, but
she's never said who or where. The children's father, Troy Taylor,
believes she knows exactly what happened. Was murdered my children.
She was leaving Troy. Her main thing is sick with control.
(01:05):
That's her biggest sickness. She did not want him they
have the kids. Mental health professionals have repeatedly found Hoggle
not competent to stand trial. The stay can keep Katherine
Hoggle locked up for five years or why they try
to restore her competency. If she remains incompetent in five years,
she may have to be released. Two children, a two
year old little boy a three year old little girl missing,
(01:29):
nowhere to be found. Where are Jacob and Sarah? I?
Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories, Thank you for being
with us. It was just after eleven o'clock on a
Friday night that police then get a call from a
local residence in Germantown stating that Katherine Hoggle, the children's mother,
(01:54):
was spotted at Century Rock Boulevard. Immediately, police go there
and they find Katherine Hoggle, but her missing children were
nowhere with her. The children have been missing and reported
to be with their mom, Katherine Hoggle, but then police
find Katherine. Where our Jacob and Sarah? Well. Many people
(02:19):
gathered at a Chick fil A parking lot on Saturday night.
We're praying to find the little children and the hopes
that they would be found safe and sound. As of
right now, their disappearance still remains a mystery because the
mom insists that overwhelmed with motherhood, she gave the children away.
(02:44):
She gave her children away and refuses to tell police
who she gave them to. Let's start with what we
know with me, Cold Case Research Institute Director Cheryl McCollum.
Also with me Crime Stories contributor Cheryl White. First to you,
(03:07):
Cheryl McCollum. So much focus ended up on a local
Chick fil A in Maryland. Why needs because that's where
she was last seen on video. The mother that's right,
Katherine Hoggle was actually spotted instrumentance video walking out of
a Chick fil A very surreptitiously. Cheryl, I mean, I
(03:29):
have looked at this video over and over. Some people
actually describe it as sneaky. Um. What about her demeanor
made it sneaky? Well? I mean again, you know, you
you get dropped off, you're gonna go in, you say
you just want some of the drink, and then you
slip out the side door and leave the children's father outside.
(03:51):
I mean it's very sufficious. Wait wait wait, wait, wait
wait wait, Cheryl, take it from the beginning. Tell me
about that visit to Chick fil A and why it's
so sicknificant. Well, she tells the child, the children's father,
that she has dropped them off at a new daycare
and she just wants to go to Chick fil A
for something to drink. He drives her there. She goes
(04:12):
in the front door, presumably to go to the counter,
get a coke and come back, but no, she slips
up the side door. He does not see your leave.
So after a period of time he goes in the
Chick fil A to look for she's gone. So this
is what we know. That father is desperate and is
asking for help. He goes to the mom. He goes
(04:34):
to his wife, Katherine Hoggle. She says, oh, you know,
I enrolled I didn't like the last place. I enrolled
them in a new daycare, and I took him there,
and well let's go there. Now, can we stop and
get a drink at Chick fil A? So he goes, sure,
they stop at Chick fil A? And I'm looking at
the video right now. Let's post that on crime online
(04:55):
dot com place I can see her in the video.
She comes into us, like Cheryl mccllum is telling me,
kind of goes up to the counter and then leaves
out a side door. The husband's just sitting outside. Now
what we know is that the father is the one
who contacts police almost immediately and reports the mother and
(05:18):
the two children we're missing. It's interesting to me that
she also, Cheryl mccllum, and I'll tell you later why
this is so important, keeps her face turned away from
the surveillance video. I don't know if you notice that
or not, but okay, So she walks out of the
back door of Chick fil A and goes to a
Germantown transit center. What do we know happens after that?
(05:43):
Cheryl White is with me Crime Stories contributor. What do
we know, Cheryl, Well, all we know is that they
there are two tiny children missing. They've never been found. Now.
One part of the story from the Chick fil A
see is that they had been driving around. According to
the children's father, they had been he and Katherine, the
(06:06):
children's mother, had been driving around for a very long time.
She said, oh, I can't remember where this new daycare is.
That's when she said she needed something to drink, and
they stopped at the Chick fil A. So they've been
driving around for a while, and the father said he
was starting to get more than a little annoyed and worried.
(06:27):
As a matter of fact, he told her he was
driving her to the police stage unless she told him
where is the daycare? And she's like, gosh, you know,
I just signed him up. I can't remember where it is.
Just keep going, It's in here somewhere. Can I have
a coke? That's how that whole thing played out. But
then we've got a whole another story going on. Uh.
Sheryl McCallum, director of the Cold Case Institute. Police say
(06:52):
that that Sunday night, the mom takes the children to
her mother's house in Clarksburg, that she was going to
take her son Jacob for a pizza, but that when
she got back home three hours later to the mom's house,
he wasn't with her. She told the mom Jacob was
at the playmates house, right, So that's a whole another
(07:14):
story that she's telling. So police say Jacob was not
there and he hasn't been seen since. So which of
these stories are true? This all goes down while the
dad is out working. He has an overnight job, Cheryl,
like my dad used to have, so he's at work
when the mom says this happened, So what about that story?
(07:35):
We've got the story that she dropped them at a
new daycare. And then we've got this story that police
seemed to be confirming that Hoggle took the two babies
to her mom's house in Clarksburgh. Says she's taken Jacob
out for a pizza, comes back without him about three
hours later and says, oh, we stayed at the friend's house. Okay,
(07:55):
what do we know about that? Which of these, if
either are true? Well, we don't know. Oh, and that's
what's happening. You're having to build a case on live
and that's why this is so difficult. She's not telling
the truth ever. So you don't know where Jacob is,
you don't know the friends, you don't know whether aren't
(08:15):
police saying this, aren't police stating that she took the
children to her mom's house. Is that much true? I
believe that much is true, But I'm saying where Jacob
went from there, we don't know. We don't know what friends,
we don't know where she left him. And then it's
the next day on Monday. The dad has been working
on and he's like, where are the children, and she says, oh,
(08:37):
I put him in a new daycare. So, I mean,
if she's telling any of the truth, they did go
for pizza, there was a playmate, and she took them
to daycare the next morning. I don't think that's true.
I don't think any of that's true. But you know
as well as I do, when you have children and
their fathers involved, y'all have long discussions about daycare. That's
(09:01):
not a quick twitch. You investigate the daycare. You make
sure it's a good place, a safe place, and you
damn well know where the place is when you leave
your child there. Yes, I agree, That's why I don't
think any of this is true. Plus, I'm going back
to our last known signing. I mean the whole daycare.
That's the pile of bs alright, the B sameter is
(09:24):
like shrieking in my head. Um, So that never happened,
just for the reasons you just said. So, I'm already
back to what I know to be true. Police are
telling me she was spotted at her mother's house with
the children the night before, or at least one of them,
and that would have been on Sunday night. The dad
(09:47):
is at work, he works nights. She says she's taken
in for pizza. He's never seen alive again. So my timeline,
which is you know where I always start, Cheryl is Sunday.
That's they're not mentioning the little girl going, But that
is when, in my mind, that's when the children are
(10:08):
either sold, are given away, or worse. Now Cheryl McCullum,
we know the next day the dad is at the
Chick fil A and she leaves. What is her story
about giving her children away? She told everybody that she
(10:29):
gave them away, but she refused to say who she
gave them to. Cheryl White, Crime Stories contributor. She is
insisting that she gave the children away and quote they
are safe, but she refuses to reveal where they are. Why.
What reason do we speculate or what reason that she
gives she gave the two babies away. Well, some are
(10:51):
saying that there's trouble in the relationship between the father
and and Katherine, the husband and wife. There. Um, one
thing haven't talked about as the third child. So my
question is why the two younger children and not the
older child? Right, there is a third child. That child
is safe and sound. Um. We also have statements by
(11:14):
the father. The father tells police that while he's at
work on Sunday afternoon, Hoggle's own father dries them to
the grandmother's house in Gaithersburg. Hoggle then borrows her father's car,
it's a Grade two thousand twelve Nissan Rogue, and tells
her parents she's taking Jacob to get pizza. So now
(11:37):
I'm confirming again they're alive and well. On Sunday, Sunday afternoon,
the father and the grandfather and the grandmother place them alive. Okay,
So she disappears in the dad's Nissan rogue. She returns
three hours later, without the son or without food. Claims
(11:57):
she dropped the baby at the playmates house and then
came back went back to her home with her daughter.
That's the last time either of them have been seen alive.
Now let me ask you this, Cheryl McCullum, where the
children ever spotted on any surveillance video at a pizza
place or anywhere. No. Never tell me about the search
(12:22):
that ensued. Sheryl White. Well, it was a four day search,
and it was one of those intensive searches. You have
babies missing, and so they just mobilized the entire community.
It's police, it's family, it's friends, it's total strangers that
are searching everywhere, not only for the children, but for
(12:42):
Katherine as well, the mother too. She's missing at this
point as well. This is what we have for a description.
Sarah Hoggle is just the little girl is just three
ft six inches tall. She only weighs forty pounds, brown
eyes and brown hair. Brother j a cub three feet tall,
ways twenty five pounds. He has brown eyes and blonde hair.
(13:08):
Let me go ahead and give you the tip line now,
three oh one to seven nine eight thousand. Three oh
one to seven nine eight thousand, let's talk about Catherine
Hoggles description five six hundred and sixty pounds, brown eyes,
black hair, wearing blue jeans and a black tank talk.
That's what she was wearing with the children go missing.
(13:35):
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(14:43):
Two little children, Jacob and Sarah Hoggle are missing. Officers, police,
citizens k nines extensively search the area for your children
that Saturday. According to Montgomery County Police Department, I remember
very well these two go missing, and for the life
of me, I could not understand why the mother, Katherine Hoggle,
(15:07):
would not divulge where her children were. Now shrinks will
tell you that she was having trouble with her marriage
and was overwhelmed with three children. She says she gave
them away, gave them away and refuses to state where
they went. Why? Why was she refused to state? Could
(15:27):
it be because she hates her husband so much she
doesn't want him to have them. Is she af ray?
She's going to be indicted for neglect or giving away
her children. Let's take a careful look at her behavior.
She is the key to the location of these children.
With me, Cheryl White, Crime Stories contributor and Cheryl McCullum,
director of the Cold Case Research Institute, Cheryl, let's look
(15:50):
at her mommy's behavior before and after the children's disappearance. Absolutely, nay,
pre and post behavior are going to be key in
zero in her mind set here. So how was she
before the Sunday night Pezza and her mother's The things
that she said, the things that she did. Was her
(16:11):
focus on Jacob? Was she angry at him? Was she
angry at their father? Something was going on that now
people will be able to pick up and say, I
remember this. The post behavior, her wondering around saying that
she gave them away. She hasn't called the police, she
wasn't worried about him, she hasn't organized searches. All of
(16:31):
that's going to be imperative, and I hate to tell
you its rings of Casey Anthony Ah, I was thinking
the same thing I didn't even want to say the
words taught mom. How do you compare Hoggle Catherine Hoggle
to tot Mom Casey Anthony, who murdered I believe murdered
her little girl, Keilly. What about it, Shall McCollum. Well,
(16:54):
here you are. You have her, you know, going with
her own parents, riding in the car or having some
fine so get pizza. It sounds like a great normal,
you know evening. Next thing you know, oh, I gave
him away, gave them away? What just like top Mom,
Casey Anthony blames Zenia Gonzalez that pretend nanny was so
(17:16):
freaky about that is she had been She taught Mom
had been looking at an apartment, uh Sawgrass on Sawgrass Road,
I believe it was. And police go to that apartment
to check out her story and Nieda Gonzalez had actually
been there before Todd Mom and signed in, signed in
(17:38):
that she was going to look at a model apartment.
So top Mom goes there, sees the name that's where
Zenya Gonzalez came from. Correct, And it turned out to
be a real person whose name was ruined by her
connection to Top Mom, Casey Anthony and the disappearance of Kelley.
She was forever connected to that, and it also waked
(18:00):
but a whole lot of Yeah, they defines the night
of Gonzalez, who had never met Casey Anthony in her life.
So here we've got the same thing as Cheryl McCollum
is pointing out, a fabricated story and a refusal to
divulge where the children really are. Now by this time
(18:20):
there was a search. After Katherine Hoggle leaves the chick
fil A. There is a man hunt or should I
say a woman hunt for Katherine Hoggle, who to this day,
to this moment that you're hearing us here on Syrius
Sex in two, if still the key to the case,
we still don't have the children. Take a listen to
(18:42):
the guy that fortuitously spots Katherine Hoggle. Listen. It was
a little after eleven fifteen in the evening. Nicholas Stewart
knew there was something unusual about the woman wondering about
the parking lot of his Germantown complex as he went
to take out the trash, and he couldn't put his
finger on it at first. I mean, I see her
(19:05):
walking towards me. I didn't think anything. Maybe it was
just a resident. Um, I see her pacing back and forth.
But the woman's behavior grows more unusual, especially, he says,
and she went into a breezeway in the complex. He says,
she seemed lost and confused. She went like this. She
saw me. She went like this, and then I turned around,
and then I see her come out, and she looked
like this, and then walked here and then just stopped.
(19:28):
He decided to keep an eye on her, and they
actually exchanged words or something. Told me to just keep looking,
and she asked me for the time. I said, I
do not have the time. My phone is actually dead
at the time, and she said, thank you. Um, my
phone is dead too. Stewart says he ran to his apartment,
looked at the flyer again and realized it was indeed
Catherine Hargell, the woman lasted scene earlier in the week
and calling on camera and surveillance footage. I actually watched
(19:52):
one of the surveillance videos of her ten minutes before
I spotted lady. Steward says he ran to a nearby
police station to get help. They got to the scene
at Century Boulevard It in Crystal Rock, driving took Hoggle
into custody, so you know, Sheryl White. Sheryl McCollum. It's
just dumb luck really, because this guy had just looked
at a flyer that was posted, I believe above hit
(20:15):
the mailboxes at this apartment complex or this this location structure.
He sees the flyer of the two children and Katherine Hoggle.
Then he less than a minute passes he sees Hoggle
and he he says, she was, you know, acting covertly,
just like you said she did in the Chick fil
(20:36):
A Sheryl McCollum. He goes up to her. They have
a conversation. He says, um, well, I can't use my phone.
It's dead. She goes, oh, mind's dead too. She seemed
absolutely perfectly normal, Ryl White, completely normal. One thing missing,
make that too, the children, Sheryl White. Yeah, the children
(20:59):
are still missing. Uh then and now and she she
all she'll say is that they are safe and that
there with someone else. And there was a chase, a
short chase before police could apprehend her, which I find
interesting that she ran. Interesting, Sheryl McCollum. When your children
are missing, as Sheryl White says, the guy immediately calls
(21:24):
the police the number on the flyer. Police show up
a chase ensuits. If my children are missing and laying
on the front steps of the police station, I'm laying
there screaming. She runs from police, Cheryl. She runs from police,
and when they get her, she has snatched down one
(21:47):
of the flyers that had been posted. She had taken
it down so nobody could see it, and it was
in her hand, Cheryl when cops get her after she runs,
Cheryl wanted away. She doesn't want the children fail, she
doesn't want to be captured herself, and again, holding that
(22:07):
fire in her hand tells you she didn't want anybody
else to find it either. This is where the search
for the babies takes a very unusual turn. Of course,
Hoggle has taken into custody and questioned about the location
and her children. Take a listen to what her husband
says regarding the children's disappearance. I want to thank all
(22:30):
of you in the community and in the media for
all your support you have shown me, myself, Sarah and Jacob,
my family throughout the entire process. As I'm sure you understand,
it's been a very emotional time for myself and and
others who love my family and my children. Uh, I
just decided to go ahead and read a prepared statement
(22:51):
and then not take questions today. UM, Katherine Hoggle has
murdered my children, and I hope there and Jacob get
the justice they deserve. I have held out hope that
something else may have happened, as I think that any
parent under these circumstances would, But it has always been
a faint hope. And I know now with the passage
(23:13):
of time, that Catherine killed my babies for the From
the very beginning of this process three years ago, the
Montgomery County Police Department and States Attorneys Office have been
very consistent in their theory on this case. I know
that they are right, and I fully support the charges
handed down here today. I also knew they were UM.
(23:34):
I knew there was a good chance they're right from
the beginning. In addition to the investigation by the local police,
with the support of the family and of family and friends,
I've had my own professional private investigator study the facts
and UM, this isn't part of the rim part. But UM,
in the beginning, they came in with an open mind.
After investigating, they came to the same conclusion as the
(23:55):
state's turns off the end. The police UM actually hired
two or three of I'm kind of like getting the
second opinion from a doctor, and they all came back
the same. Everyone who has reviewed this agrees that Katherine
murdered Sarah and Jacob. I'm sure Jerry will agreed, and
I hope Sarah and Jacob get their day in court. UM.
(24:17):
I don't know if that's somebody's I'm sorry. I want
again to express my sincere thanks to the community and
UM to you the media for all your support and
everything you guys have done. Uh. Please keep my family,
Sarah and Jacob in your prayers. I hope with the
charges handed down today, we're moving closer to getting justice
for them, and that's what it needs to be about,
(24:39):
from beginning to end, and in justice for my babies.
Cheryl White with me Crime Stories contributor Cheryl McCollum, Director
of the Cold Case Research Institute. Cheryl McCollum. What I
mean this is right after she is brought into court
by police and she is questioned under oath by the
judge about where are your children and she still refuses
(25:02):
to say. The husband says to conflicting statements one he
believes his wife had been drugged when all this happened. Okay,
and too that she's acting that. She says she wants
to be found incompetence so she can't be charged with
giving away her children. Cheryl McCullum, Now that I think
(25:22):
we're getting somewhere, because Nancy, she's been play acting the
whole time. She pretended to take Jacob for pizza, she
pretended they read a new school. She pretended to go
by a coach. That's what she's good at. And when
they get closed to her, she tries to escape in
some way. She hides her face, she hides her identity.
She runs from police. The breaking news that Catherine Hoggle,
(25:46):
the mother of the two missing children, was located in
Germantown there in Maryland and immediately taken into custody after
she leaves them on a brief foot chase. When they
get her, Mommy is clutching a flyer that has been posted,
tearing it down so nobody else can see the children
or the tip line number. She refuses to say what
(26:08):
happened to the children. At this moment, police still searching
for the two children, Sarah and Jacob. Then they give
a statement. They are extremely concerned for the children's welfare.
She has taken us all down the garden path, Cheryl McCullum.
(26:28):
Just hours after she slips out the back door of
a Chick fil A, she boards a county bus near
that restaurant, goes down Route one eighteen Germantown Road between
Interstate to seventy and goes to the Germantown Commons shopping center.
She takes that bus after giving the husband a slip
(26:49):
at Chick fil A. She rides the bus to the
transit center I told you about to Lake Forest Mall
and gets off. She sited there on videotel ape and
she is seen going in and out of various locations
in that shopping mall. Cheryl McCollum. Then police go there.
(27:10):
They go there to retrace her steps, hoping to find
a trace of the children. Instead, they found the contents
of her pocket book thrown in a bathroom in the building.
What does that mean, Cheryl? What's she trying to get
rid of her identity? Who she is so when somebody
catches her, even if it's in another town or city,
(27:32):
she can make up a name and a date of birth.
It's not gonna be her. She's got gonna exist anymore.
You know, this plot seemingly gets more and more intricate.
So we have her, let's retrace it, Cheryl and Cheryl,
Cheryl White and Chryl McCullum. We have her with the
children alive at her mother's house. We have her father,
(27:53):
the children's grandfather, giving her his car. She puts Jacob
in the car, claiming they're going for pizza, coming back
without him three hours later, stating that he stayed with
his friend. She takes the baby away, claiming they're going home.
The husband's at the night shift. Whoever she gave baby
(28:15):
Jacob too that night or whatever she did with him.
She takes the little girl. She leaves with a little girl.
The little girl has never seen alive again. The dad
gets home from work where the children, Oh, I took
him to a new daycare. Nobody's seen the children since
the night before Sunday night. They start looking for the daycare,
(28:37):
can't find it. She goes into Chick fil A she
wants to coke. She slips out the side. She then
eludes her husband who's sitting in the parking lot, takes
a bus, gets away from him and goes to a
shopping center. She goes in and out of several locations.
Police find out about it. They go a retrace her steps,
(28:59):
they don't find her. They find her pocketbook has been emptied.
Why flyers Over ten thousand flyers go up all over town.
A guy is looking at the flyer over a mailbox,
then turns around to see Katherine Hockle. She has a
perfectly normal saying conversation with him. His girlfriend immediately calls police.
(29:26):
They come. She leads them on a brief but fast
paced foot chase. When they get her, she has torn
down the flyer of the children with the tip line.
She's taken to police headquarters. She's questioning court. She refuses
to say where the children are, and the husband insists
(29:47):
she's acting. Listen to what he says one more time.
Katherine Hoggle has murdered my children, and I hope Sarah
and Jacob get the justice they deserve. I have held
out hope that something else may have happened, as I
think that any parent under these circumstances would, But it
has always been a faint hope, and I know now
(30:08):
with the passage of time that Katherine killed my babies
for the From the very beginning of this process three
years ago, the Montgomery County Police Department and States Attorney's
Office have been very consistent in their theory on this case.
I know that they are right, and I fully support
the charges handed down here today. I also knew they
(30:29):
were UM, I knew there was a good chance they're
right from the beginning. So where is Jacob? Where is Sarah?
Tipline three zero one to seven nine eight thousand. Then
and another twist, Cheryl White Crime Stories contributor. She now
claims she's paranoise schizophrenic. Okay, her husband says she's acting.
(30:57):
The children are still missing. When did that come about?
So now we see a mental defect. I mean she
told her husband she wants to be found incompetent so
she can't be charged or go to jail. What do
we know about her claims that paranoise get sophrenia Cheryl White, Well,
she has a history of mental issues. Here's Here's something
(31:18):
I find extremely odd is that shortly after she was
taken into custody, she told her family members that she
would take police to her children. Um, but she had
to do it personally, So She went to court then
to get a judge's okay that she could take them
(31:41):
to the children. But that's not what ended up happening. Well,
when she got to court, her attorneys said Hoggle is
in no mental condition to make the claim to take
them on the journey to the children, and that in fact,
she did not want to help, and that her condition
(32:01):
was so deteriorated she should not even be interrogated. Wow,
that's convenient, Cheryl McCullum. So she says, okay, okay, I'm
tired of jail. Let me out and I will take
you to the children. You know what, do you remember
that wild goose chase that top Mom Casey Anthony led
police on in the search for uh Zanina Gonzalez. They
(32:26):
went all over town. They went to sell aggress apartments.
She claims she worked at Universal Man she had it down.
She even got to the security entrance and told them
that she worked there, and they're like, wow, we can't
find you on the employee list, and she goes, yeah,
I did work here. Hey, you can call my my
co employees. And she gave names and phone numbers extensions
(32:49):
her names of people that worked at Universal and the
security was calling them, and so police are onto so
they take her in and and they get all the
way up to the door and they're going into Universal,
and she says, okay, ah, you got me, like it's
some kind of a game. I do not really work
(33:10):
at Universal anymore. And all this time she had been
sitting on her parents sofa, eating their food out of
their fridge and letting them take care of the baby,
claiming she worked at Universal. She would even put on
an Universal outfit with tags old I D tags and
leave to go lay up at her boyfriend's apartment. So
(33:30):
it's such a charade. And Cheryl McCullum, it sounds like
the same thing with Katherine Hoggle. Yeah, I think Katherine's
overplaying her hands a little bit, because you know Nancy
better than me. Schizophrenic doesn't mean you don't go to jail.
The one reason you're gonna stay out of jail is
if you can demonstrate you don't know right from wrong. Well,
(33:51):
she's already to me proven beautifully she knows what she's
done is wrong again, from trying to hide her face
to running from the police, to want to involve the
police and not calling number one one to take him
down the poster. She knew. So now this is her
latest game. Well, let me tell you a little story. Okay, Alan, dieca,
(34:13):
hear you groaning in the background, But Alan, I want
some My boss the longest serving district attorney in the
country at that time it was Louis Slayton. And oh boy,
let me tell you. Louis Slayton was like a grandfather
to me. You know, when I first started prosecuting, women
(34:34):
and minorities were not in many jurisdictions allowed to try cases.
They would be relegated to child support recovery. You know,
deadbeat dads Cheryl McCullum, remember this. Or they'd have to
go to ju V g V g V court where
there were no juries um, or you'd write appeals. Not
Mr Slayton. If you could try a case, he'd put
(34:56):
you in front of a jury. So I manage to
beg my way in to the courtroom. And I had
a guy one day, let's just slate and call him.
He goes, we got a problem. I'm like, what what
is he? Guys, I want you to handle this case.
Come out of the courtroom and focus on this case.
I'm not great. There was a woman who had apparently
(35:20):
committed suicide. And I didn't know exactly what he wanted
me to do, but you know, I started with going
to the crime lab and looking at the evidence. And
I met with this old guy. He had an accent
much worse than mine, believe it or not, and we
put the bed sheets. She had was naked and had
(35:44):
laid down in the bed and shot herself in the head.
And we were just standing there looking at them, and
he had a light behind them. We were looking at them.
They were hanging up like a poster, and we noticed
he noticed, I'm going to give him the credit, there
was a blood spatch her underneath where the pillow had been. Obviously,
(36:07):
it was not a suicide. First of all, women, if
you look at the method and assessment of homicide and suicide,
you would know it's extremely rare for a woman to
shoot herself in the head or the chest, but specially
the head. Second, never, never, never, very rarely does a
female commit suicide without her clothes on. Don't ask me why,
(36:31):
this is just what I know by statistics. So right
then we knew, and as I had suspected, this was
no suicide. Okay, so immediately start looking at the husband.
I fine do a whole handful of subpoenas and start
stalking his friends and colleagues. I mean sitting out in
(36:52):
the parking lot waiting for them to come out of
work behind cars. And when they come out of hand him, uh,
subpoena ducas chicke And which is is paying it for documents?
For any letters he has written them? Well, guess what
he writes. Simmons says, um, something about they're gonna find
(37:13):
if they decide if they believe that I killed my wife.
I'm going to make sure they think that I'm crazy,
and I'll just stay in the crazy house for a
few years making sand sculptures and you know how you
pour sand into a little bottle and make a picture
and at the end and then I'll get out and
(37:35):
keep it cool and ps and don't kill your wife. Okay,
you know we had no money. I had to pay
my own money to go to Kinko's to turn all
of his letters into giant posters. The joy I felt
when I put up all those posters in the courtroom
(37:56):
and would go through each one word for word. I
was so happy. So here you go. Now she's paranoid schizophrenic. Um.
I still don't know where the children are. The most
recent development is there has been a charge, a charge
(38:19):
against the mother, Katherine Hoggle, that has gone down in
the last weeks. The schizophrenic, allegedly schizophrenic mother thirty years
old of two missing children has now been charged with murder.
Katherine Hoggle, aged thirty, has been indicted on two counts
(38:39):
a first degree murder, accused of killing her two year
old son and her three year old daughter. I want
to go to you, Cheryl McCollum. They've never been found.
The people she allegedly gave her children to have never
(39:00):
been found. How do we know they weren't sold. How
do we know she didn't just give them away? There's nobody.
How is she charged with murder? Cheryl? Well, it's a
nobody homicide case, Nancy. And what we do know is
at this point years have gone by, the children would
(39:23):
have started school to whoever she gave the children to
would have had to take them to school, to the doctor,
other places. At this point, they know a manhunt has
been going over for the children. This couple, if they existed,
would have come forward in some way. They haven't done
anything wrong. But they're not raising two children with you know,
(39:43):
no paperword, no birth certificate or anything like that. It's
not true. So again, common sense tells us by her actions,
trying to escape all the time, trying to hide her identity,
trying to hide out in a mental institution, that she
has done something horrible with these two children. We are
posting right now on crime online dot com an artist impression,
(40:08):
an age progression of what the children would look like today,
if alive. We're getting this from National Center of Missing
and Exploited Children, and you can see that on crime
online dot com. As of right now, these two children
have been deemed murder victims. Do we know if any
(40:32):
evidence was found, such as blood, um, their clothing, a
shallow grave, anything to suggest that they are dead? Sheryl White, Well,
what I do know is that state's attorney, John McCarthy says,
we would never have filed the charges indicted her onto
murder charges if we didn't feel we have a case.
(40:55):
Take a listen to what the state attorney in Montgomery
County has to say. Under Maryland law, an individual charged
with only misdemeanors can only be hospitalized and detained and
a formal hospital slash prison setting for a maximum period
of three years. She has been incarcerated in that facility,
(41:19):
essentially receiving evaluations on a regular basis for her competency
to stand trial over the last three years. The deadline
for those three years came today. Uh, the court today
would have had to dismiss the charges against her, and
we would have had to release Miss Hoggle as a
(41:40):
matter of law because she could not be held any
longer on those misdemeanors. Therefore, we sought an indictment from
the grand jury yesterday charging her with the two counts
of murder. Again, there was no advantage to moving forward.
I will tell you that as long and I think
I publicly said this before up, as long as there's
(42:00):
not an indictment, you are allowed to continue to use
a grand jury for the purposes of a criminal investigation.
Once you indict a case, you lose that option, You
lose that right. That was an investigative tool that we
had available to us. It did not make any sense
if she remained incompetent to lose that tool well because
(42:22):
of the law that would have dictated she would become
free without any ability for us to check on her
whereabouts or her medical station. It became incumbent on us
to take the additional step to seek the indictment for
the two counts of murder that we did yesterday. The
laws now changed in terms of how long we can
halt her for the purposes of the evaluation. Miss Hoggle
(42:45):
can now be held five years now charged with the
felony for the purposes of the doctors to attempt to
restore her to competency. Composing just basically means you have
to have a basic understanding of the nature of the
charge it against. You don't have to be able to
assist your attorney in defending yourself. This has nothing to
do with her guilt or innocence. Like I am tremendously frustrated,
(43:09):
and I've said this in court before. Am I frustrated
that we were here three years into this and she's
not been a restored to competency? Absolutely? I am Why
am I frustrated? Well, she's been Look, this is a
woman who had a and again I'm talking about things
that are in the public record. This was a young
woman who had had prior hospitalizations, She had been identified
(43:29):
with psychiatric issues prior to the disappearance of her kids.
She had been in various hospitals, she had been restored
to competency before through psychotropic medications and reintroduced back into
the community. I had every hope when she went to
purpose three years ago that we would have that same
thing occur. She would fall into the care of psychiatrists,
(43:50):
they would determine what her need was, and they would
begin through a regiment of medications to restore competency that
would allow us to move forward. So I am tremendouslyrustrated,
as I can tell you. Look, I'm sure any member
of the family on either side of this will tell
you above all, they are tremendously frustrated. They knew the
(44:10):
psychiatric history, they knew about the restoration of competency in
other cases, and they want to know why hasn't the
hospital been able to do that. It's a frustration for
all of us. But again, we've just taken steps legally
to give them additional time to do that. And I
don't think we had any other option but to seek
the indictment we saw it yesterday. It was the only
(44:31):
way to adequately I think protect the public and protect
some individual people in particularly back to Cheryl McCollum, director
of the Cold Case Research Institute Cheryl For the longest time,
Katherine Huggle stays at a cushy psych facility repeatedly attempting
(44:52):
to escape, and then when she's caught trying to escape,
she says she wants to go see her children, and
she'll leave police to her children in order or to
get out. What do you make of that, Sheryl McCollum,
The key is eight times she is attempted to escape.
If she wanted her children to be okay, she would
tell them where to go get them and let the
children be So what does this say to you? Every
(45:14):
time she wants to get out she says she'll lead
the police to her children. That doesn't sound crazy to me.
It sounds like a stunt to me. That sounds like,
if you let me out, I will do something for you.
That's the contortion. Another issue, to Sheryl White Crime Stories contributor,
is this charge has just come down because the legal
(45:34):
time limit the statute of limitations on the three misdemeanors
the child neglect misdemeanors that she had been charged with
initially were about to give out, which means she would
have walked free, Okay, right after they go missing. You've got, like,
you know, a year or so on the statute of
(45:56):
limitations on misdemeanors is one to three years, and once
that ends and you haven't been prosecuted, you walk free,
of course, unless you filed a demand for speedy trial,
which she did not. So she's about to walk free
and this murder charge comes down. Is that the way
it goes, Sheryl White, That's the way it goes exactly.
So time was running out. So she was indicted on
(46:20):
two counts of murder for the two missing children, and
now she can be held for five years under medical care.
Now that she's been indicted on the murder charges, she
can only be held for five years if she is
deemed incompetent. So I guess the first step Cheryl McCollum
(46:41):
is going to be a competency trial that is not
necessarily a trial on the merits of the case. Is
simply to determine whether she is competent. That does not
go to insanity. It's very simply, can you aid your
lawyer during your trial? Are you competent enough to help
(47:01):
your lawyer get through the trial? That's all this year.
He is Cheryl, That's all it is. And I think
it is imperative that the prosecution get their own doctor
to examine her, not the folks from this institute that
she's been at. Why do you say that, because you
need to have somebody that is just seeing her in
evaluating her from right now, not the people that have
(47:23):
already bought into her game. They there, they already have
their mind made up. The search for the children goes
on as of right now, these two children still missing.
Last seen when her husband wakes up to find all
three of them no longer in their home. She comes
(47:44):
back in the minivan without the children. Where where are
Jacob and Sarah? Are they dead? Are alive? Nancy Grace
Crime Story, signing off, goodbye friend. Do you find yourself
(48:08):
obsessing over unsolved mysteries? Do you wish there was a
group of people just like you to talk motives and
alibis with. If so, join the Crime con Cold Case
Club and work alongside experts and fellow crime sleuths to
help uncover new leads and theories in the cold cases.
They adopt Their first cold case focuses on the mysterious
disappearance of nursing student Maura Murray in two thousand four,
(48:28):
and it's free to join thanks to Oxygen. Sign up
now or find more info at Club dot crime con
dot com. That's club dot crime con dot com.
Host
Nancy Grace
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