July 3, 2024 • 40 mins
The LAPD launches a criminal investigation into the death of Matthew Perry after the Medical Examiner's report is released and is nearing its conclusion.
A source close to the investigation tells People the police believe multiple people should be charged. The LAPD is working with the Drug Enforcement Administration, DEA, and the U.S. Postal Inspectors attempting to find out where the ketamine that killed Matthew Perry came from.
Will someone be charged?
Joining Nancy Grace Today:
- Wendy Patrick – California Prosecutor, Author of “Why Bad Looks Good” and “Red Flags,” and Host of “Today with Dr. Wendy” on KCBQ in San Diego; X: @WendyPatrickPHD"
- Dr. Bethany Marshall – Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills); X: @DrBethanyLive/ Instagram & TikTok: drbethanymarshall; Appearing in “Paris in Love” on Peacock; BOOK: “Deal Breaker: When to work on a relationship and when to walk away”
- Mike McCormick – Owner and Lead Investigator of M.C.M. Investigations (Los Angeles); Former LAPD Detective for over 25 years (worked Gangs for 5 years); Facebook: MCM Investigations
- Dr. Ernest Chiodo - Toxicologist, Physician, Biomedical Engineer, Attorney; Author: “Toxic Tort: Medical and Legal Elements”
- Lauren Conlin – Investigative Journalist, Host of The Outlier Podcast, and also Host of “Corruption: What Happened to Grant Solomon; X- @Conlin_Lauren/ Instagram- @LaurenEmilyConlin/YouTube- @LaurenConlin4
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Friends star Matthew Perry od's
dead and a hot tub? Are criminal charges looming in
his death? Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Bombshell. Investigators and law enforcement are looking to charge multiple
suspects in the tragic ketamine death of Friends actor Matthew Perry.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I recall when prosecuting ketamine K was equated with drugs
that veterinarians used, But now it's very very common on
the street and even prescribed. But why are criminal charges
looming in an OD and overdose case? How is that
(00:57):
working now that we know the cause of death has
been ruled accidental? Listen?
Speaker 3 (01:03):
The LAPD launching a criminal investigation into the death of
Matthew Perry after the medical examiner's report is released and
it's nearing its conclusion. A source close to the investigation
tells people the police believe multiple people should be charged.
The LAPD is working with the Drug Enforcement Administration, the DEA,
and the US Postal Inspectors attempting to find out where
(01:23):
the ketamine that killed Matthew Perry came from.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
what we're learning right now are criminal charges looming in
the overdose death a friends start Matthew Perry. Now we
know that there is a criminal investigation going on of
who straight out to Lauren Colin, investigative journalist's host of
The Outlier podcast. You can find her at Laurencolin dot com.
(01:51):
Lauren criminal charges. Now, I recall distinctly when I was prosecuting,
there's a big buzz in the courthouse. Archie Bunkers in
the courthouse. All in the Family was a huge TV show.
My brother, my older brother, loved it and he was
the star. He went on to be the star of
the Heat of the Night and just a great, great actor.
(02:12):
His son died of an overdose and he was in
the Fulton County courthouse pursuing a claim against the doper
and at that time it was unheard of. Right now
we are hearing that charges, criminal charges are looming in
connection with Matthew Perry's death. What do you know, Nancy.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
What we know is that Matthew Perry was getting treatment
for depression through ketamine. But this type of treatment, I mean,
it leaves your body within two to three hours. They're
traces of ketamine. He was also weaning himself off of
this treatment, so he hadn't been to this doctor or
this place to get these treatments for over a week
(02:54):
and a half.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
So when the autopsy report.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Came out and it was stated that he had so
much ketamine in his system and I will let a
doctor talk about how much they were like, wait a second,
where would one procure all of this? So it actually
took his stepfather, journalist from Dateline, Keith Morrison, to say, hey,
we probably should make this a criminal investigation here.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Another saying is that there can be a cocktail of
drugs and papal system. Why it was see why was
he Matthew Perry so o day what happened? Well, our friend,
doctor William Roney, an expert in epioids, wise.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
In what you have is a cocktail of disaster because
you probably are dealing with multiple doctors that are not communicating,
nobody's coordinating his care. And if he's getting ketamine, as
it's said in the autopsy, there's ketamine contents in the stomach,
(03:57):
that would be ketamine pills. That's a rogue doctor, somebody
outside of good practice guidelines giving pills. They have no
business giving in addition to ketamine treatment.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
And to doctor Moroni, what do you mean by rogue clinics.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
These are rogue doctors in rogue clinics. The only doctor
that's probably legitimate here is the one giving a bupin orphine.
That's the hardest word to say. But in order to
do that you have to have training.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
The rest of.
Speaker 5 (04:27):
These people doing ketamine rogue. They're outside the law, they're
outside good practice. We saw this with Anna Nicole Smith,
Michael Jackson, Prince, all these rogue doctors treating all these
celebrities and you don't know who's around them.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah. Another interesting thing as I was researching in the
NY and early early this morning regarding Matthew Perry, it's
very disturbing to meet doctor Bethany Marshall is joining us,
a renownced psychoanalyst in the LA area and a book
deal break or went to work in a relationship and
went to walk away and you can find her at
(05:03):
doctor Bethany Marshall dot com doctor Bethany. When I was
researching Matthew Perry early this morning, you know what comes up.
First thing. Matthew Perry had more than one point five
million dollars in his personal bank account. Matthew Perry is
broke at the time of death. Matthew Perry has nearly
two million dollars. Blah blah blah. Does anybody care other
(05:25):
than this panel about what happened to Matthew Perry After
his death, people came out of the woodwork saying, Oh,
he's a horrible person. Oh he's a wonderful person. And
now it's all about his money, the ketamene, it's about
his death. How did he get the drugs? Why was
he odeed? I mean, this guy was a TV superstar,
(05:48):
a movie star. Did nobody care about him? Did nobody
care about what happened to him? Did his just stand
by and watch him into oblivion over and over and over.
It's like vultures, harpies picking at his bones at this juncture.
(06:09):
The fact is this could have been prevented and he
could have lived, Doctor Bethany. But now the headline he
had nearly two million dollars in his bank account at
the time of his death.
Speaker 6 (06:19):
Nancy, this is the worst form of what I call othering,
just turning him into the dangerous other, or the poor other,
or the enviable other. Somebody with whom you have no relationship.
All these people who watched Friends all of those years,
they felt attached to him, They felt a.
Speaker 7 (06:34):
Sense of love, a sense of admiration.
Speaker 6 (06:37):
But now they've kicked him off the pedestal and they
have him writhing on the ground, and they're vilifying the victim.
Because these celebrities who have a lot of money notoriously
get the worst care. I see this in my practice
all the time, because what happens is if they're suffering
from addiction and one doctor limits them or says I'm sorry,
I'm not going to prescribe this for you because you
have a propensity towards addiction, and they can just go
(07:01):
find another one, another doctor to prescribe because they have
all these hangers on and they are vulnerable. People with
substance abuse problems.
Speaker 7 (07:09):
Are extraordinarily vulnerable.
Speaker 6 (07:12):
And so the fact that doctor Moroney is talking about
all these different people prescribing, they were not working together
as a team and they were not setting limits, which
is what you have to do with people who have
these kinds of mental health struggles.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Who who are we talking about? Who is under criminal investigation? Listen?
I can tell you this much. When the LAPD, the DEA,
and the US Postal Service are up your Tailpie, You're
in trouble. I am telling you those are three very
very powerful law enforcement agencies. And don't underestimates the ups
(07:50):
the US Postal Service. We always hear about mobsters committing murderers,
drug trafficking, human trafficking. You know who can bring down
a mobster in a New York minute? The US Postal Service.
Why do we need them not just to get a mail?
Because they help prove wire fraud. They help prove fraud
(08:14):
through the mail, which is a federal offense. Look, I
can try a guy for crack cocaine or for heroin
selling opioids, but what about the guys that send it
an e FedEx? What about the guys that mail it,
that send money through the mail or other means them?
(08:36):
So LAPD, the DEA, and the US Postal Service are
on this case. So you know something's about to go down.
And doctor Bethany Marshall, let me just ask you a
quick question. You refer to other ring. I've never heard
that before. Did you make that up?
Speaker 5 (08:53):
No?
Speaker 1 (08:53):
I mean it's.
Speaker 6 (08:54):
Really in terms of racial injustice studies, that's a frequent
word that's used where you turn of another race into
another a person for whom you have no empathy or understanding.
You don't see them as their own person and their
own right. But we do it within our own race too.
You can other an older person or somebody who's disabled,
or somebody who's young, and I think that means just
(09:15):
really not caring about them, just looking at superficial features.
But also envy is at the core of othering. When
you really are envious of another person's accomplishments, you just
stomp on them and you just knock them off their pedestal.
And it's something we human being sadly are prone to doing.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
And doctor Bethley, I could talk to you all day
long about what is wrong with people? Why do we
love somebody so much and then just want to destroy
them and talk badly about them after their death? The
way people are Matthew Perry. I don't know if what
they're saying is true or not about many of the
allegations made against him after his death, but I think
this is hardly the time to go for him. I mean,
(09:55):
he's dead, he clearly had an accidental death.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
All those online reports of people's wealth are true and true.
Often in my clinical practice, if I have a celebrity
patient and they tell me something about their financials, I'll
look it up online and there's just a wild variance
between what they report and what's online. Usually online it
is very, very inflated. Also, you know, in terms of
(10:21):
Matthew Perry, we want our celebrities to be successful enough
that we admire them and we identify with them, but
not so successful that we envy them and feel that
we can never have what they have. And so I
think his meteoric rise, the fact that he's so beloved,
so talented as an actor, and so likable and relatable,
(10:43):
makes people envious, and that's when they start to devalue
and put him down.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Well, I can tell you this much. He may have
money and fame, but when you are addicted to dr ows,
your life as hell. I don't care who you are,
it's hell h E double L. You know, Doctor Ernest
Shioda is joining us, and I'm going to follow up
with you, Mike McCornick, and Wendy Patrick because I'm really interested.
I'm anxious to find out who is being criminally investigated,
(11:11):
are charged criminal charges looming in Matthew Perry's case. I've
heard a lot of rumors that I can't report because
I can't confirm them about who is being targeted. I
know some of the people that have been questioned, but
charges like this would have to be something like an
involuntary manslaughter, producing or manufacturing or distributing drugs. There are
(11:38):
so many different ways to go. But what I want
to talk about right now doctor Ernesthiodo, who is a
renowned toxicologist, a physician, biomedical engineer, attorney and author, waite,
did I get it all? Hold on? Let me make sure. Toxicologist,
medical doctor, biomedical engineer, attorney, an author of Talk Torque,
(12:01):
Medical and legal elements. Wow. When do you have time
to breathe? Uh? Doctor Schioto, thank you for being with us.
I want to talk about the side effects of ketymine K,
which has long been used by veterinarians on animals. And
I want to talk about what somebody said earlier rogue doctors.
(12:22):
Oh it was doctor William Maroney, renowned to psychologists who
specializes in opioids. He's the author of America narcan a.
Doctor Shioto, side effects of ketymine would they make you
angry because a lot of the people that crawled out
of the woodwork after Matthew Perry's death said, oh, he
was violent. Well he never struck me that way, but
(12:45):
we don't know how he was in person. What would
be some of the side effects of ketamine.
Speaker 8 (12:52):
Well, ketymine is not an opiate. It's a fensecuidine.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Oh okay, stop right there, Okay, hold on, okay, wait, yes,
let me just put it out there. You know more
than me. I don't know what you just said. I'm
going to have to write it phonetically. What did you say?
Speaker 8 (13:09):
It's a what it's a fen cyclaine.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
It's not an opiate, A thin cyclodane.
Speaker 8 (13:16):
Okay, yes, so it's it doesn't Uh, it's not an opiate.
So it's not going to act like fentanyl or morphine
or heroine that causes respiratory depression and depth actually cause
it stimulates your respiration and increases your heart rate in
blood pressure. So so from a standpoint of something that's
(13:37):
going to cause death, uh, that's not that's not the issue.
Speaker 7 (13:42):
It can cause.
Speaker 8 (13:43):
It causes feelings of dissociation, out of body type of experiences,
and that's that's part of why it's used recreationally, but
also why it's used the treatment of depression and anxiety.
But as far as its actually causing an overdose deaths, No, no,
I don't think that's the case.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
This is what we know. His death included drowning the
effects of b primorphine, a drug that treats opioid addiction.
His use of ketamine. The amount of ketamine in his
bloodstream was equivalent to that used in general anesthesia. According
(14:24):
to the Times. That means when he was in that
hot tub, he might as well have been hooked up
to propofol or general anesthesia. I mean that is a
lot so to you. Mike McCormick, owner investig lead investigator
mcm Investigations in LA. This is your neck of the
(14:45):
woods and you can find him at m Mother c
Curry M Mother Investigations. Mike McCormick, listen to this. A
criminal investigation is being launched to figure out the source
of the drugs.
Speaker 9 (15:02):
That's going to take a little more investigation. But there's
other people involved also, and the Health and Safety Code
eleven three point fifty and eleven three sixty five would
be a couple that charges that they would probably end
up filing against the individuals who distributed or provided the
(15:25):
ketamine to Matthew.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
According to Matthew Perry, he had been cleaned for nineteen months,
but The Daily Mail reports the actor died from an
overdose of the party drug ketamine. According to the autopsy report,
a detective who attended the scene of Perry's death said, quote,
during my investigation, no alcohol, elicit drugs or drug paraphernalia
were found unquote. The Daily Mail also claims the fifty
(15:48):
four year old was getting injections of the male hormone testosterone,
and an unnamed female associate claimed the injections were causing
him to be angry and mean for the last couple
of weeks.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
A criminal investigation and to actor Matthew Perry's death is
near conclusion. Dealers could face charges.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Who's facing charges not just in Hollywood, in LA but everywhere.
Once people that are suppliers, even if they're friends of
the victim, are going to be prosecuted. And once that
begins happening, I believe that we will have less od
desk such as what we're seeing with Matthew Perry, who
(16:29):
who is being prosecuted.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
This is what we know Listen, brook Mueller isn't home
when police service search warrant at her sober living residence. However,
sources indicate Mueller is completely cooperative with law enforcement, and
when she arrives home, she's not handcuffed while talking to police.
This is not the first time Mueller has spoken with
investigators in the Matthew Perry case, but this time authority
sees her iPhone and laptop.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Okay, that's not good when law enforcement takes yourself phone
and your laptop. But again, Brooke Mueller has not been charged.
And yes, she was married to Charlie Sheen, and yes
they have twins together. Yes, she has been in and
out of rehab. She dated and I think the loose
(17:16):
sense of the word Matthew Perry. What more do we know?
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Listen, Brooke Mueller has retained a lawyer for help in
navigating the multiple meetings she's having with law enforcement, and
she's remaining tight lipped about the situation. An insider tells
in Touch it's tough to say or know exactly what
her role is in Matthew Perry's death, but Mueller is
adamant she has nothing to do with it.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Again, Brooke Mueller a mother, a former wife in and
out of rehab finding her demons, did date Matthew Perry,
we are told, but has not been named as a
defendant in this case. Wendy Patrick joining me, California prosecutor, president,
founder of Black Swan of Verdicts, an author of her
(18:00):
third book, This One's New, Why Bad Looks Good, and
you can find her at wendypatrickphd dot com. She's also
again you're like gosh ioto, I don't know how you
do this, but she's also host of Today with Doctor
Wendy KCBQ San Diego. Wendy, that's a mouthful. Now, can
we get off of your huge resume and onto Matthew Perry.
(18:24):
What do you make of this? I mean I would
be worried if I saw the dea picking through my
trash through my kitchen window. I would like that.
Speaker 10 (18:31):
No, definitely not, and especially when you put it in
combination with those other two powerhouse organizations. I mean, they
obviously have enough evidence to be conducting an investigation, whether
somebody mailed them the drugs, whether somebody gave him the
drugs because they thought they were doing him a favor,
as you mentioned earlier, they're not looking for a murder suspect,
they're looking for an involuntary manslaughter suspect or who may
(18:53):
have facilitated this drug overdose along the way. And I
do have to say, Nancy, I too have been following
what people are saying after the fact.
Speaker 7 (19:01):
And you know, he's.
Speaker 10 (19:02):
Also so relatable because so many of us know somebody
who has struggled with addiction, a family member, a cowork
or a friend. And that's one of the reasons that
investigators would look at who saw him last, who spoke
to him last, what deliveries came that day. But you're right,
when you have those agencies involved, you already know that
(19:23):
there's enough evidence to be able to at least follow trails,
hopefully leading to some suspects and some.
Speaker 11 (19:28):
Justice crime stories.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
With Nancy Grace, doctor Bethany Marshall, I'm going to jump
off what Wendy Patrick just said. Doctor Bethany, You I
don't believe have ever heard me and be an apologist
for a supplier ever. I remember the first stay with
me on this The first time I saw a DUI
(19:59):
had been to a violator, which means you've had so
many DUIs which are misdemeanors. You finally get a felony,
you graduate to b court and the defendant came in.
She was in shackles and prison blues. She was beautiful,
soft spoken, college degree, had been a stockbroker at some
one of the big stock brokerage firms, and she had
(20:23):
become an alcoholic. She lost her husband, her three children,
no more custody her. You have to have special you know,
like a lawyer has to have a law degree and
you have to be certified by the bar to practice.
She lost all of her certification. No more stock brokerage ever,
because you can't have a drunk broker because they may
(20:46):
take your money. You don't know what they'll do. She
lost everything because of addiction. And she was standing alone
in that courtroom, all alone, no family, nobody taking a
guilty place. And that was the first time. I mean,
my parents like me, my mother anyway, My father was
not afraid of a cocktail, teetotalers totally right. And I
(21:11):
saw for the first time what addiction does to you.
You think she wanted to go through life without her children,
that you might as well take a dagger and stab
me in the heart. Doctor Bethany to take me away
from the twins lost everything. So I don't apologize for suppliers.
But addicts give each other drugs, and I don't know
(21:36):
whether it feels sorry for them or to throw them
in jail.
Speaker 6 (21:40):
You know, Nancy, It's so difficult because addicts generally have
a trail of devastation behind them, and usually they do
alienate all of their loved ones and friends. And yet ironically,
it's social support that's the most key factor in sobriety.
What you said about supplying each other drugs is true.
Some people you do not want to put and psychotherapy
(22:01):
putic groups together. People with eating disorders, you don't want
to put them in a group together.
Speaker 7 (22:05):
They'll just teach each other how to binge and purge.
Speaker 6 (22:07):
You don't want to put people who are anxious and
a psychotherapy group together because they'll raise each other's anxiety.
The same with people who are drug addicted. They do
tend to supply each other drugs. And Nancy, I want
to add that we're thinking of nefarious individuals supplying drugs
to Matthew Perry. It could be his own legitimate doctor,
the primary treater. Because when you're prescribing a psychedelic agent psychotherapeutically,
(22:33):
for a patient, you have.
Speaker 7 (22:35):
To do a full assessment.
Speaker 6 (22:37):
To make sure that treatment is going to work.
Speaker 7 (22:39):
And if they're already addicted to that substance, you don't want.
Speaker 6 (22:42):
To prescribe that substance to help them get better. It's counterintuitive,
it's just malpractice.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Reminder to all, Brooke Mueller has not been charged in
this case. For all I know, they had the same supplier.
For all I know, they were talking on the phone
about their addictions. For all I know, she was counseling him.
I don't know why law enforcement has seized her phone
(23:08):
and her laptop, but we're going to find out.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Radio in one of the drowning across.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Her friends, Actor Matthew Perry's ketamine overdose death under criminal investigation.
Could Perry's celebrity friends be at fault?
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Our criminal charges looming in the od death friend star
Matthew Perry who passed away in his hot tub. He
had so much ketamine in his system it was equal
to the amount you would have for general anesthesia. He
was posting in texting about relaxing in his hot tub
(23:57):
just before his death. Clearly this was an accident. Oh
so warm water swirling around you makes you feel good.
I'm matt Man having a great evening. Right he died?
Why did he die? An ode of keteman? But I
want to ask our doctor joining us, doctor Ernest Scioto,
a renowned to psychologist, physician, biomedical engineer, and lawyer and author.
(24:22):
I was reading his autopsy report, doctor, and I also said,
I see number one cod acute effects of ketamine. But
they also see this is a tough thing. Pancreatic fibrosis.
What is that? Pancreatic fibrosis chronic?
Speaker 8 (24:39):
Yeah, it's from malcohol abuse. Basically, he has she has
damaged his pancreas from having had probably because of alcohol
prioritans gosh, Okay, that happens with other than abuse, but
it's something that's common with alcohol.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Okay. Pancreatic fibrosis chronic. And he also had nephro sclerosis
of kidneys. What is nephro sclerosis of kidneys?
Speaker 8 (25:11):
Yeah, for sclerosis of kidneys is where you have damage
to the filtering elements of the kidneys, of the elements
of the kidneys that take the toxins day to day
toxes that we all develop in our body and excrete
them into the eurine, so there was there was some
(25:31):
some kidney damage. What the cause of the kidney damage
was hard to say.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
I see chronic hepatic congestion, liver mild aplo, aplanegally. Okay,
I'm sure that's not right, but you know what it is?
What is it?
Speaker 8 (25:47):
Well, basically what's happening is he he has some damage
to his liver, again likely from Malcolm.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Okay, guys, I'm reading on in the external examination, and
I remember Friends was huge. I was in law school
and I never got to watch TV, but everybody else watched
it and loved him. And when I think about him
with that big smile, listen to this. The body is
identified by toe tags and is that of an unembalmed,
(26:15):
refrigerated adult male. It just seems so sad to me
that he affected and touched so many people's lives and
now he's identified by a toe tag. Okay, what do
we know about the criminal investigation? Is there a crime?
Was he attending rogue clinics that gave him too much ketamine?
(26:40):
Gave him access to too much ketamine? Did he doctor shop?
Did doctors have a duty to find out who else
he was seeing? Was he going to different pharmacies to
get ketamine and other drugs or did he have a
drug supplier listen.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
The decision to file charges or not in the death
of Matthew Perry rest in the US Attorney's office. Some
experts point to the involvement of the California Branch of
the Drug Enforcement Agency that federal authorities might be looking
at distribution of a controlled substance resulting in death or
conspiracy to distribute a controlled substance resulting in death charges.
(27:23):
These types of charges are used to charge drug dealers,
but can be used for pill mills and doctors who
over prescribe narcotics without seeing patients, and.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Friends that continually give you a pipeline to drugs. You know,
when you think of a drug dealer, Wendy Patrick, California Prosecutor,
When you think of a drug dealer, you automatically think of, oh, gosh,
here's a good stereotype of somebody sitting in a big
mansion with Rottwilers guarding the front door, and you know,
(27:54):
a big moat around their mansion, so you can't get
to him in armed guards, maybe with a lot of
gold chains. Yeah, it's not like that it's not like
that at all. The supplier can be here and I'm
definitely air quoting here best friend Wendy Patrick.
Speaker 10 (28:11):
Great point, Nancy, because if we were to confine our
investigation to stereotypes, we would no doubt never find the suspects.
And that's one of the things that makes drug abuse
so difficult and so challenging, specifically because drug dealers come
in all shapes and sciences, and even that terminology can
be misleading. You have cases where you have an added
sharing their pills with somebody that perhaps also has an addiction.
(28:35):
You have people having legitimate prescriptions that they sell themselves,
So there is no prototypical drug dealer that you need
to look at. Rather, sometimes suspects are right under the
noses of investigators that really broaden the search, particularly in
a case like this where we're not talking.
Speaker 6 (28:51):
About crack cocaine.
Speaker 10 (28:52):
We're talking about a drug that is regularly in talk
about air quotes at least in some circles, and for depression,
and prescribed legitimately by physicians. Now the onus becomes a
physician can only make a smart prescribing decision under the
physician's creative do no harm if they know whether or
not that patient is also receiving prescriptions from other places,
(29:15):
are they prone to addiction, do they have a history
of drug or alcohol abuse? So all those factors going
to the prescribing decision, which itself.
Speaker 7 (29:24):
Can be complicated by there will be.
Speaker 10 (29:26):
No record of an addition to what you get legitimately,
whether or not somebody is receiving drugs from associates, from friends,
or from so called dealers on the.
Speaker 11 (29:35):
Street crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Actor Matthew Perry dead a tragic ketamine overdose and hot
tub drowning. Who gave Perry the lethal drugs?
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Okay, right now, we know that Britt Muehler was once
romantically involved with and that they were still in touch
at the time of his death, but we didn't know
this Listen Brook.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Mueller has retained a lawyer for help in navigating the
multiple meetings she's having with law enforcement, and she's remaining
tight lipped about the situation. An insider tells in Touch
it's tough to say or know exactly what her role
is in Matthew Perry's death, but Mueller is adamant she
has nothing to do with.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
It, and again Lauren Colin. I don't want to convict
Brooke Mueller. Now, all right, this woman is trying to
make a goat for a life and sober living. I
want to get the right person, not just any person. Also,
you have the other issues, Lauren Colin. Was he doctor shopping?
Was he going to rogue clinics? We don't know that,
but for some reason we know Ellie law enforcement sees
(30:46):
her laptop and phone. Lauren Colin, What more do we know?
Because I'm sure, I think, I'm sure that she has
never been arrested or handcuffed during any of these inquiries.
The fact that she hired a lawyer, I mean, I
think everybody in la has a lawyer on retainer. Why,
I don't know that, but that's not shocking to me.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
No, Nancy, I was just going to say that everybody
needs to stop acting like someone's guilty because.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
They lawyer up.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
Everybody should lawyer up, like you just said.
Speaker 12 (31:15):
But no, I want to point out the FBI truly
believes that Matthew Perry or someone in his quote inner
circle was doctor shopping to multiple physitions in different states
to obtain the ketamine and have.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
Those doctors send prescriptions. Across state lines. Perhaps that's the case,
but this is a federal offense. So for whatever reason,
Brooke Mueller is the only name that they have released.
And I agree with you, she is being questioned, she's cooperating,
but she's not necessarily a suspect.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Although I've got to agree also with Michael Mike McCormick
Wendy Patrick, because when the authorities keep coming back to
you and coming back to you, that's a concern in
an investigation. You would have thought that she would have
handed over her phone and laptop cooperating with them. And
we've been told she is cooperating and that would be
the end of it. But it could be as simple
(32:08):
as did they at one time have the same supplier?
What were they talking about? I don't know, but it
does rape raise a red flag Wendy Patrick that they
continue to question her.
Speaker 10 (32:22):
Yeah, it sounds almost like because the two of them
knew each other from a rehab facility, that perhaps they
shared a lot of information in addition to sharing mutual
friends that may have themselves relapsed and there in lives
where an investigation needs to go is that how much
information can she continue to provide once they are also
investigating leads from other places that they can then go
(32:45):
back and ask a supplement question. Doesn't mean she's a
suspect at all. I mean she may have the kind
of information that would be valuable for them to continue
to follow up on.
Speaker 7 (32:54):
Then when they find.
Speaker 10 (32:55):
Out new facts she can corroborate, she can admit deny.
Remember she's been cooperative, and that is what we have
to view in terms of turning over the phone in
the laptop, whether they were seized, whether she gave them voluntarily.
Speaker 7 (33:08):
It means that there's something in.
Speaker 10 (33:10):
Her past as well that may be instrumental, not incriminating
necessarily with respect to her, but instrumental and law enforcement
finding who's to blame? And the ultimate question where did
he get the drugs?
Speaker 1 (33:23):
We are being told that the criminal investigation into Matthew
Perry's death is quote wrapping up our charges to follow.
Another issue out to Mike McCormick, Honorarly and investigator mcm
investigations in LA is that when they showed up to
meet with her, meet with her at her sober living house,
(33:45):
they had a search warrant with them. Now I can
tell you this much. When I went to interview witnesses
in every square inch of the city of Atlanta, Fulton County.
I usually did not take a search warrant. I'd knock
on the door, they let me in. We'd sit down
and talk and I'd make notes. We'd have iced tea,
(34:07):
and that would be that. Once in a while i'd
have a subpoena with me to personally deliver it to
them for them to come to court, or a subpoena
duketikam for documents to come to court. But not a
search warrant. That is a subtle but very important distinction.
Speaker 9 (34:26):
Absolutely better to have it and not need it than
need it and not have it.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
But why a search warrant?
Speaker 9 (34:31):
Mike in kise can't get what they want voluntarily.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
It means Wendy Patrick and Mike McCormick is correct, But
it means they go to her for a reason. They
are seeking something. You have to have a search warrant
to enter a defendant's home, or to really for police
to enter any home, you've got to have a search warrant.
They're looking for something directly connected to a criminal investigation.
(35:00):
That's what a search want is. That's right, and.
Speaker 10 (35:02):
It has to be supported by sufficient facts and circumstances
to justify a judge having granted it.
Speaker 7 (35:08):
And that's important here because you think about all of
what was in that affidata.
Speaker 10 (35:11):
They would have had to explain what they're looking for,
what their experience is, and why they think that they're
going to find it on her devices, whether it's a phone,
whether it's a laptop. You can't just go out and
get a search warrant. You need to do all the
background investigation that allows you to articulate with secificity what
(35:31):
you're looking for, why you think it's going to be there,
and then of course you need a judge to agree
to all of that. So you have to imagine a
lot of that background information that they already did led
them to that point.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Bombshell investigators and law enforcement are looking to charge multiple
suspects in the tragic ketamine death of Friends actor Matthew Perry.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
The incredental investigation to the death a Friends star Matthew
Perry is ongoing. We've been told it's very close to
being quote wrapped up. Will there be criminal charges as
it relates to Perry's death? Right now? We know that
his former girlfriend sweetheart Brooke Mueller has been questioned repeatedly
pursuant to search warrant. She has not been named a
(36:15):
target of the investigation. Perry himself wrote about his addiction Listen.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Matthew Perry wrote about his issues with addiction to alcohol
and drugs in his memoir. He said he began drinking
at fourteen and was an alcoholic by eighteen. Perry first
went to rehab and completed a twenty eight day program
at Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation after a jet ski accident
led to an addiction to vicoden. In his twenty twenty
two memoir Friends, Lovers and the Big Terrible Thing, Perry
(36:40):
claimed to have been to rehab fifteen times, detox sixty
five times, and spent about seven to nine million dollars
trying to get sober.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
You know what, I don't care about the money or
the fame this guy had. He was living in hell
trying to get out from under addiction. Okay, we know
about him, But who is she? Lauren Colin in a nutshell?
Brooke Mueller.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
Yes, Brooke Mueller is from Florida. She was actually born
in upstate New York. She had a very wealthy stepfather
and that led to her pretty much pursuing whatever she wanted.
She became friends with Paris Hilton, she did reality TV,
she was an actress at one point, and then she
did some real estate development and she ended up meeting
Charlie Sheen.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
So to doctor Bethany Marshall, and that makes many of
us regular mortals wonder when people have so much money
born with a silverspoon in their mouths her, I don't
know that he was necessarily born with a single silverspoon
in his mouth, but he became a superstar, money, fame,
suck ups all around you, seemingly having everything. Why drug addiction?
Speaker 6 (37:48):
You know, Nancy, drug addiction is very biologically motivated. You know,
there's so much talk about trauma and family dysfunction and
all the things that happened situationally that prime people for addiction.
But basically there's a very strong biological component. So let's
say you have the predisposition for addiction, and then you
(38:08):
have to quote you suck ups all around you that
really want you to not be aware of what's going on,
maybe con artists, maybe an agent or a manager who
wants to push you into jobs you're not ready for.
What is the best way to render somebody unaware of
what you're doing. If you want to take advantage of them,
supply them with drugs, then they'll pay you. Then you'll
(38:30):
be their best friend. And you know, doctors are not
immune from this. We saw this with Michael Jackson. You know,
celebrities when they have this horrible, horrible disease state, they
will go from one person to another to another until
they find somebody who will supply them. And Nancy, I
just want your audience to know that when an addict
(38:51):
or a person suffering from addiction has had some period
of sobriety, the next time they use they will binge. Okay,
that is so commonly known in the field. So let's
take Whitney Houston. She may have been sober for a
while before she had her you know, overdose when she
came to Los Angeles. We could have seen this with
Prince So he was in an enormously vulnerable state because
(39:13):
he was trying to get sober.
Speaker 7 (39:15):
So there was probably a big yo yo.
Speaker 6 (39:17):
Between sobriety binging, sobriety binging, and that became a perfect
storm that led to his death.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
It makes people wonder if superstars like Matthew Perry and
actress Brooke Mueller. With all that money, can't be happy
and resort to drugs and become addicts. What hope is
there for the rest of us? You know what, I'm
going to stay with being a teetotaler. I'm not even
going to put my toe in that pond. We wait
(39:47):
as just as unfolds and this criminal investigation into the
death a friend, star Matthew Perry comes to a culmination.
But right now we stop and we remember an American
hero police officer, Peter E. C. Jerving Milwaukee p D,
Wisconsin Officer Gerving shot killed in the line of duty,
(40:09):
survived by grieving parents Patty and Douglas, and beloved sweetheart Magan.
American hero police officer Peter E. C. Jerving. I want
to thank all of our guests tonight, a real brain
trust as we once again wide into addiction that ends
(40:30):
in death. Thank you for being with us. Nancy Gray
signing off, goodbye friend.
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, Friends star Matthew Perry od's
dead and a hot tub? Are criminal charges looming in
his death? Good evening, I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories.
Thank you for being with us.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Bombshell. Investigators and law enforcement are looking to charge multiple
suspects in the tragic ketamine death of Friends actor Matthew Perry.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
I recall when prosecuting ketamine K was equated with drugs
that veterinarians used, But now it's very very common on
the street and even prescribed. But why are criminal charges
looming in an OD and overdose case? How is that
(00:57):
working now that we know the cause of death has
been ruled accidental? Listen?
Speaker 3 (01:03):
The LAPD launching a criminal investigation into the death of
Matthew Perry after the medical examiner's report is released and
it's nearing its conclusion. A source close to the investigation
tells people the police believe multiple people should be charged.
The LAPD is working with the Drug Enforcement Administration, the DEA,
and the US Postal Inspectors attempting to find out where
(01:23):
the ketamine that killed Matthew Perry came from.
Speaker 1 (01:26):
Joining me an all star panel to make sense of
what we're learning right now are criminal charges looming in
the overdose death a friends start Matthew Perry. Now we
know that there is a criminal investigation going on of
who straight out to Lauren Colin, investigative journalist's host of
The Outlier podcast. You can find her at Laurencolin dot com.
(01:51):
Lauren criminal charges. Now, I recall distinctly when I was prosecuting,
there's a big buzz in the courthouse. Archie Bunkers in
the courthouse. All in the Family was a huge TV show.
My brother, my older brother, loved it and he was
the star. He went on to be the star of
the Heat of the Night and just a great, great actor.
(02:12):
His son died of an overdose and he was in
the Fulton County courthouse pursuing a claim against the doper
and at that time it was unheard of. Right now
we are hearing that charges, criminal charges are looming in
connection with Matthew Perry's death. What do you know, Nancy.
Speaker 4 (02:34):
What we know is that Matthew Perry was getting treatment
for depression through ketamine. But this type of treatment, I mean,
it leaves your body within two to three hours. They're
traces of ketamine. He was also weaning himself off of
this treatment, so he hadn't been to this doctor or
this place to get these treatments for over a week
(02:54):
and a half.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
So when the autopsy report.
Speaker 4 (02:57):
Came out and it was stated that he had so
much ketamine in his system and I will let a
doctor talk about how much they were like, wait a second,
where would one procure all of this? So it actually
took his stepfather, journalist from Dateline, Keith Morrison, to say, hey,
we probably should make this a criminal investigation here.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Another saying is that there can be a cocktail of
drugs and papal system. Why it was see why was
he Matthew Perry so o day what happened? Well, our friend,
doctor William Roney, an expert in epioids, wise.
Speaker 5 (03:34):
In what you have is a cocktail of disaster because
you probably are dealing with multiple doctors that are not communicating,
nobody's coordinating his care. And if he's getting ketamine, as
it's said in the autopsy, there's ketamine contents in the stomach,
(03:57):
that would be ketamine pills. That's a rogue doctor, somebody
outside of good practice guidelines giving pills. They have no
business giving in addition to ketamine treatment.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
And to doctor Moroni, what do you mean by rogue clinics.
Speaker 5 (04:14):
These are rogue doctors in rogue clinics. The only doctor
that's probably legitimate here is the one giving a bupin orphine.
That's the hardest word to say. But in order to
do that you have to have training.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
The rest of.
Speaker 5 (04:27):
These people doing ketamine rogue. They're outside the law, they're
outside good practice. We saw this with Anna Nicole Smith,
Michael Jackson, Prince, all these rogue doctors treating all these
celebrities and you don't know who's around them.
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah. Another interesting thing as I was researching in the
NY and early early this morning regarding Matthew Perry, it's
very disturbing to meet doctor Bethany Marshall is joining us,
a renownced psychoanalyst in the LA area and a book
deal break or went to work in a relationship and
went to walk away and you can find her at
(05:03):
doctor Bethany Marshall dot com doctor Bethany. When I was
researching Matthew Perry early this morning, you know what comes up.
First thing. Matthew Perry had more than one point five
million dollars in his personal bank account. Matthew Perry is
broke at the time of death. Matthew Perry has nearly
two million dollars. Blah blah blah. Does anybody care other
(05:25):
than this panel about what happened to Matthew Perry After
his death, people came out of the woodwork saying, Oh,
he's a horrible person. Oh he's a wonderful person. And
now it's all about his money, the ketamene, it's about
his death. How did he get the drugs? Why was
he odeed? I mean, this guy was a TV superstar,
(05:48):
a movie star. Did nobody care about him? Did nobody
care about what happened to him? Did his just stand
by and watch him into oblivion over and over and over.
It's like vultures, harpies picking at his bones at this juncture.
(06:09):
The fact is this could have been prevented and he
could have lived, Doctor Bethany. But now the headline he
had nearly two million dollars in his bank account at
the time of his death.
Speaker 6 (06:19):
Nancy, this is the worst form of what I call othering,
just turning him into the dangerous other, or the poor other,
or the enviable other. Somebody with whom you have no relationship.
All these people who watched Friends all of those years,
they felt attached to him, They felt a.
Speaker 7 (06:34):
Sense of love, a sense of admiration.
Speaker 6 (06:37):
But now they've kicked him off the pedestal and they
have him writhing on the ground, and they're vilifying the victim.
Because these celebrities who have a lot of money notoriously
get the worst care. I see this in my practice
all the time, because what happens is if they're suffering
from addiction and one doctor limits them or says I'm sorry,
I'm not going to prescribe this for you because you
have a propensity towards addiction, and they can just go
(07:01):
find another one, another doctor to prescribe because they have
all these hangers on and they are vulnerable. People with
substance abuse problems.
Speaker 7 (07:09):
Are extraordinarily vulnerable.
Speaker 6 (07:12):
And so the fact that doctor Moroney is talking about
all these different people prescribing, they were not working together
as a team and they were not setting limits, which
is what you have to do with people who have
these kinds of mental health struggles.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Who who are we talking about? Who is under criminal investigation? Listen?
I can tell you this much. When the LAPD, the DEA,
and the US Postal Service are up your Tailpie, You're
in trouble. I am telling you those are three very
very powerful law enforcement agencies. And don't underestimates the ups
(07:50):
the US Postal Service. We always hear about mobsters committing murderers,
drug trafficking, human trafficking. You know who can bring down
a mobster in a New York minute? The US Postal Service.
Why do we need them not just to get a mail?
Because they help prove wire fraud. They help prove fraud
(08:14):
through the mail, which is a federal offense. Look, I
can try a guy for crack cocaine or for heroin
selling opioids, but what about the guys that send it
an e FedEx? What about the guys that mail it,
that send money through the mail or other means them?
(08:36):
So LAPD, the DEA, and the US Postal Service are
on this case. So you know something's about to go down.
And doctor Bethany Marshall, let me just ask you a
quick question. You refer to other ring. I've never heard
that before. Did you make that up?
Speaker 5 (08:53):
No?
Speaker 1 (08:53):
I mean it's.
Speaker 6 (08:54):
Really in terms of racial injustice studies, that's a frequent
word that's used where you turn of another race into
another a person for whom you have no empathy or understanding.
You don't see them as their own person and their
own right. But we do it within our own race too.
You can other an older person or somebody who's disabled,
or somebody who's young, and I think that means just
(09:15):
really not caring about them, just looking at superficial features.
But also envy is at the core of othering. When
you really are envious of another person's accomplishments, you just
stomp on them and you just knock them off their pedestal.
And it's something we human being sadly are prone to doing.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
And doctor Bethley, I could talk to you all day
long about what is wrong with people? Why do we
love somebody so much and then just want to destroy
them and talk badly about them after their death? The
way people are Matthew Perry. I don't know if what
they're saying is true or not about many of the
allegations made against him after his death, but I think
this is hardly the time to go for him. I mean,
(09:55):
he's dead, he clearly had an accidental death.
Speaker 6 (10:00):
All those online reports of people's wealth are true and true.
Often in my clinical practice, if I have a celebrity
patient and they tell me something about their financials, I'll
look it up online and there's just a wild variance
between what they report and what's online. Usually online it
is very, very inflated. Also, you know, in terms of
(10:21):
Matthew Perry, we want our celebrities to be successful enough
that we admire them and we identify with them, but
not so successful that we envy them and feel that
we can never have what they have. And so I
think his meteoric rise, the fact that he's so beloved,
so talented as an actor, and so likable and relatable,
(10:43):
makes people envious, and that's when they start to devalue
and put him down.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Well, I can tell you this much. He may have
money and fame, but when you are addicted to dr ows,
your life as hell. I don't care who you are,
it's hell h E double L. You know, Doctor Ernest
Shioda is joining us, and I'm going to follow up
with you, Mike McCornick, and Wendy Patrick because I'm really interested.
I'm anxious to find out who is being criminally investigated,
(11:11):
are charged criminal charges looming in Matthew Perry's case. I've
heard a lot of rumors that I can't report because
I can't confirm them about who is being targeted. I
know some of the people that have been questioned, but
charges like this would have to be something like an
involuntary manslaughter, producing or manufacturing or distributing drugs. There are
(11:38):
so many different ways to go. But what I want
to talk about right now doctor Ernesthiodo, who is a
renowned toxicologist, a physician, biomedical engineer, attorney and author, waite,
did I get it all? Hold on? Let me make sure. Toxicologist,
medical doctor, biomedical engineer, attorney, an author of Talk Torque,
(12:01):
Medical and legal elements. Wow. When do you have time
to breathe? Uh? Doctor Schioto, thank you for being with us.
I want to talk about the side effects of ketymine K,
which has long been used by veterinarians on animals. And
I want to talk about what somebody said earlier rogue doctors.
(12:22):
Oh it was doctor William Maroney, renowned to psychologists who
specializes in opioids. He's the author of America narcan a.
Doctor Shioto, side effects of ketymine would they make you
angry because a lot of the people that crawled out
of the woodwork after Matthew Perry's death said, oh, he
was violent. Well he never struck me that way, but
(12:45):
we don't know how he was in person. What would
be some of the side effects of ketamine.
Speaker 8 (12:52):
Well, ketymine is not an opiate. It's a fensecuidine.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Oh okay, stop right there, Okay, hold on, okay, wait, yes,
let me just put it out there. You know more
than me. I don't know what you just said. I'm
going to have to write it phonetically. What did you say?
Speaker 8 (13:09):
It's a what it's a fen cyclaine.
Speaker 1 (13:12):
It's not an opiate, A thin cyclodane.
Speaker 8 (13:16):
Okay, yes, so it's it doesn't Uh, it's not an opiate.
So it's not going to act like fentanyl or morphine
or heroine that causes respiratory depression and depth actually cause
it stimulates your respiration and increases your heart rate in
blood pressure. So so from a standpoint of something that's
(13:37):
going to cause death, uh, that's not that's not the issue.
Speaker 7 (13:42):
It can cause.
Speaker 8 (13:43):
It causes feelings of dissociation, out of body type of experiences,
and that's that's part of why it's used recreationally, but
also why it's used the treatment of depression and anxiety.
But as far as its actually causing an overdose deaths, No, no,
I don't think that's the case.
Speaker 1 (14:03):
This is what we know. His death included drowning the
effects of b primorphine, a drug that treats opioid addiction.
His use of ketamine. The amount of ketamine in his
bloodstream was equivalent to that used in general anesthesia. According
(14:24):
to the Times. That means when he was in that
hot tub, he might as well have been hooked up
to propofol or general anesthesia. I mean that is a
lot so to you. Mike McCormick, owner investig lead investigator
mcm Investigations in LA. This is your neck of the
(14:45):
woods and you can find him at m Mother c
Curry M Mother Investigations. Mike McCormick, listen to this. A
criminal investigation is being launched to figure out the source
of the drugs.
Speaker 9 (15:02):
That's going to take a little more investigation. But there's
other people involved also, and the Health and Safety Code
eleven three point fifty and eleven three sixty five would
be a couple that charges that they would probably end
up filing against the individuals who distributed or provided the
(15:25):
ketamine to Matthew.
Speaker 3 (15:27):
According to Matthew Perry, he had been cleaned for nineteen months,
but The Daily Mail reports the actor died from an
overdose of the party drug ketamine. According to the autopsy report,
a detective who attended the scene of Perry's death said, quote,
during my investigation, no alcohol, elicit drugs or drug paraphernalia
were found unquote. The Daily Mail also claims the fifty
(15:48):
four year old was getting injections of the male hormone testosterone,
and an unnamed female associate claimed the injections were causing
him to be angry and mean for the last couple
of weeks.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
A criminal investigation and to actor Matthew Perry's death is
near conclusion. Dealers could face charges.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
Who's facing charges not just in Hollywood, in LA but everywhere.
Once people that are suppliers, even if they're friends of
the victim, are going to be prosecuted. And once that
begins happening, I believe that we will have less od
desk such as what we're seeing with Matthew Perry, who
(16:29):
who is being prosecuted.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
This is what we know Listen, brook Mueller isn't home
when police service search warrant at her sober living residence. However,
sources indicate Mueller is completely cooperative with law enforcement, and
when she arrives home, she's not handcuffed while talking to police.
This is not the first time Mueller has spoken with
investigators in the Matthew Perry case, but this time authority
sees her iPhone and laptop.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Okay, that's not good when law enforcement takes yourself phone
and your laptop. But again, Brooke Mueller has not been charged.
And yes, she was married to Charlie Sheen, and yes
they have twins together. Yes, she has been in and
out of rehab. She dated and I think the loose
(17:16):
sense of the word Matthew Perry. What more do we know?
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Listen, Brooke Mueller has retained a lawyer for help in
navigating the multiple meetings she's having with law enforcement, and
she's remaining tight lipped about the situation. An insider tells
in Touch it's tough to say or know exactly what
her role is in Matthew Perry's death, but Mueller is
adamant she has nothing to do with it.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Again, Brooke Mueller a mother, a former wife in and
out of rehab finding her demons, did date Matthew Perry,
we are told, but has not been named as a
defendant in this case. Wendy Patrick joining me, California prosecutor, president,
founder of Black Swan of Verdicts, an author of her
(18:00):
third book, This One's New, Why Bad Looks Good, and
you can find her at wendypatrickphd dot com. She's also
again you're like gosh ioto, I don't know how you
do this, but she's also host of Today with Doctor
Wendy KCBQ San Diego. Wendy, that's a mouthful. Now, can
we get off of your huge resume and onto Matthew Perry.
(18:24):
What do you make of this? I mean I would
be worried if I saw the dea picking through my
trash through my kitchen window. I would like that.
Speaker 10 (18:31):
No, definitely not, and especially when you put it in
combination with those other two powerhouse organizations. I mean, they
obviously have enough evidence to be conducting an investigation, whether
somebody mailed them the drugs, whether somebody gave him the
drugs because they thought they were doing him a favor,
as you mentioned earlier, they're not looking for a murder suspect,
they're looking for an involuntary manslaughter suspect or who may
(18:53):
have facilitated this drug overdose along the way. And I
do have to say, Nancy, I too have been following
what people are saying after the fact.
Speaker 7 (19:01):
And you know, he's.
Speaker 10 (19:02):
Also so relatable because so many of us know somebody
who has struggled with addiction, a family member, a cowork
or a friend. And that's one of the reasons that
investigators would look at who saw him last, who spoke
to him last, what deliveries came that day. But you're right,
when you have those agencies involved, you already know that
(19:23):
there's enough evidence to be able to at least follow trails,
hopefully leading to some suspects and some.
Speaker 11 (19:28):
Justice crime stories.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
With Nancy Grace, doctor Bethany Marshall, I'm going to jump
off what Wendy Patrick just said. Doctor Bethany, You I
don't believe have ever heard me and be an apologist
for a supplier ever. I remember the first stay with
me on this The first time I saw a DUI
(19:59):
had been to a violator, which means you've had so
many DUIs which are misdemeanors. You finally get a felony,
you graduate to b court and the defendant came in.
She was in shackles and prison blues. She was beautiful,
soft spoken, college degree, had been a stockbroker at some
one of the big stock brokerage firms, and she had
(20:23):
become an alcoholic. She lost her husband, her three children,
no more custody her. You have to have special you know,
like a lawyer has to have a law degree and
you have to be certified by the bar to practice.
She lost all of her certification. No more stock brokerage ever,
because you can't have a drunk broker because they may
(20:46):
take your money. You don't know what they'll do. She
lost everything because of addiction. And she was standing alone
in that courtroom, all alone, no family, nobody taking a
guilty place. And that was the first time. I mean,
my parents like me, my mother anyway, My father was
not afraid of a cocktail, teetotalers totally right. And I
(21:11):
saw for the first time what addiction does to you.
You think she wanted to go through life without her children,
that you might as well take a dagger and stab
me in the heart. Doctor Bethany to take me away
from the twins lost everything. So I don't apologize for suppliers.
But addicts give each other drugs, and I don't know
(21:36):
whether it feels sorry for them or to throw them
in jail.
Speaker 6 (21:40):
You know, Nancy, It's so difficult because addicts generally have
a trail of devastation behind them, and usually they do
alienate all of their loved ones and friends. And yet ironically,
it's social support that's the most key factor in sobriety.
What you said about supplying each other drugs is true.
Some people you do not want to put and psychotherapy
(22:01):
putic groups together. People with eating disorders, you don't want
to put them in a group together.
Speaker 7 (22:05):
They'll just teach each other how to binge and purge.
Speaker 6 (22:07):
You don't want to put people who are anxious and
a psychotherapy group together because they'll raise each other's anxiety.
The same with people who are drug addicted. They do
tend to supply each other drugs. And Nancy, I want
to add that we're thinking of nefarious individuals supplying drugs
to Matthew Perry. It could be his own legitimate doctor,
the primary treater. Because when you're prescribing a psychedelic agent psychotherapeutically,
(22:33):
for a patient, you have.
Speaker 7 (22:35):
To do a full assessment.
Speaker 6 (22:37):
To make sure that treatment is going to work.
Speaker 7 (22:39):
And if they're already addicted to that substance, you don't want.
Speaker 6 (22:42):
To prescribe that substance to help them get better. It's counterintuitive,
it's just malpractice.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Reminder to all, Brooke Mueller has not been charged in
this case. For all I know, they had the same supplier.
For all I know, they were talking on the phone
about their addictions. For all I know, she was counseling him.
I don't know why law enforcement has seized her phone
(23:08):
and her laptop, but we're going to find out.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Radio in one of the drowning across.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Her friends, Actor Matthew Perry's ketamine overdose death under criminal investigation.
Could Perry's celebrity friends be at fault?
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Our criminal charges looming in the od death friend star
Matthew Perry who passed away in his hot tub. He
had so much ketamine in his system it was equal
to the amount you would have for general anesthesia. He
was posting in texting about relaxing in his hot tub
(23:57):
just before his death. Clearly this was an accident. Oh
so warm water swirling around you makes you feel good.
I'm matt Man having a great evening. Right he died?
Why did he die? An ode of keteman? But I
want to ask our doctor joining us, doctor Ernest Scioto,
a renowned to psychologist, physician, biomedical engineer, and lawyer and author.
(24:22):
I was reading his autopsy report, doctor, and I also said,
I see number one cod acute effects of ketamine. But
they also see this is a tough thing. Pancreatic fibrosis.
What is that? Pancreatic fibrosis chronic?
Speaker 8 (24:39):
Yeah, it's from malcohol abuse. Basically, he has she has
damaged his pancreas from having had probably because of alcohol
prioritans gosh, Okay, that happens with other than abuse, but
it's something that's common with alcohol.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
Okay. Pancreatic fibrosis chronic. And he also had nephro sclerosis
of kidneys. What is nephro sclerosis of kidneys?
Speaker 8 (25:11):
Yeah, for sclerosis of kidneys is where you have damage
to the filtering elements of the kidneys, of the elements
of the kidneys that take the toxins day to day
toxes that we all develop in our body and excrete
them into the eurine, so there was there was some
(25:31):
some kidney damage. What the cause of the kidney damage
was hard to say.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
I see chronic hepatic congestion, liver mild aplo, aplanegally. Okay,
I'm sure that's not right, but you know what it is?
What is it?
Speaker 8 (25:47):
Well, basically what's happening is he he has some damage
to his liver, again likely from Malcolm.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Okay, guys, I'm reading on in the external examination, and
I remember Friends was huge. I was in law school
and I never got to watch TV, but everybody else watched
it and loved him. And when I think about him
with that big smile, listen to this. The body is
identified by toe tags and is that of an unembalmed,
(26:15):
refrigerated adult male. It just seems so sad to me
that he affected and touched so many people's lives and
now he's identified by a toe tag. Okay, what do
we know about the criminal investigation? Is there a crime?
Was he attending rogue clinics that gave him too much ketamine?
(26:40):
Gave him access to too much ketamine? Did he doctor shop?
Did doctors have a duty to find out who else
he was seeing? Was he going to different pharmacies to
get ketamine and other drugs or did he have a
drug supplier listen.
Speaker 3 (27:02):
The decision to file charges or not in the death
of Matthew Perry rest in the US Attorney's office. Some
experts point to the involvement of the California Branch of
the Drug Enforcement Agency that federal authorities might be looking
at distribution of a controlled substance resulting in death or
conspiracy to distribute a controlled substance resulting in death charges.
(27:23):
These types of charges are used to charge drug dealers,
but can be used for pill mills and doctors who
over prescribe narcotics without seeing patients, and.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
Friends that continually give you a pipeline to drugs. You know,
when you think of a drug dealer, Wendy Patrick, California Prosecutor,
When you think of a drug dealer, you automatically think of, oh, gosh,
here's a good stereotype of somebody sitting in a big
mansion with Rottwilers guarding the front door, and you know,
(27:54):
a big moat around their mansion, so you can't get
to him in armed guards, maybe with a lot of
gold chains. Yeah, it's not like that it's not like
that at all. The supplier can be here and I'm
definitely air quoting here best friend Wendy Patrick.
Speaker 10 (28:11):
Great point, Nancy, because if we were to confine our
investigation to stereotypes, we would no doubt never find the suspects.
And that's one of the things that makes drug abuse
so difficult and so challenging, specifically because drug dealers come
in all shapes and sciences, and even that terminology can
be misleading. You have cases where you have an added
sharing their pills with somebody that perhaps also has an addiction.
(28:35):
You have people having legitimate prescriptions that they sell themselves,
So there is no prototypical drug dealer that you need
to look at. Rather, sometimes suspects are right under the
noses of investigators that really broaden the search, particularly in
a case like this where we're not talking.
Speaker 6 (28:51):
About crack cocaine.
Speaker 10 (28:52):
We're talking about a drug that is regularly in talk
about air quotes at least in some circles, and for depression,
and prescribed legitimately by physicians. Now the onus becomes a
physician can only make a smart prescribing decision under the
physician's creative do no harm if they know whether or
not that patient is also receiving prescriptions from other places,
(29:15):
are they prone to addiction, do they have a history
of drug or alcohol abuse? So all those factors going
to the prescribing decision, which itself.
Speaker 7 (29:24):
Can be complicated by there will be.
Speaker 10 (29:26):
No record of an addition to what you get legitimately,
whether or not somebody is receiving drugs from associates, from friends,
or from so called dealers on the.
Speaker 11 (29:35):
Street crime stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Actor Matthew Perry dead a tragic ketamine overdose and hot
tub drowning. Who gave Perry the lethal drugs?
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Okay, right now, we know that Britt Muehler was once
romantically involved with and that they were still in touch
at the time of his death, but we didn't know
this Listen Brook.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
Mueller has retained a lawyer for help in navigating the
multiple meetings she's having with law enforcement, and she's remaining
tight lipped about the situation. An insider tells in Touch
it's tough to say or know exactly what her role
is in Matthew Perry's death, but Mueller is adamant she
has nothing to do with.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
It, and again Lauren Colin. I don't want to convict
Brooke Mueller. Now, all right, this woman is trying to
make a goat for a life and sober living. I
want to get the right person, not just any person. Also,
you have the other issues, Lauren Colin. Was he doctor shopping?
Was he going to rogue clinics? We don't know that,
but for some reason we know Ellie law enforcement sees
(30:46):
her laptop and phone. Lauren Colin, What more do we know?
Because I'm sure, I think, I'm sure that she has
never been arrested or handcuffed during any of these inquiries.
The fact that she hired a lawyer, I mean, I
think everybody in la has a lawyer on retainer. Why,
I don't know that, but that's not shocking to me.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
No, Nancy, I was just going to say that everybody
needs to stop acting like someone's guilty because.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
They lawyer up.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
Everybody should lawyer up, like you just said.
Speaker 12 (31:15):
But no, I want to point out the FBI truly
believes that Matthew Perry or someone in his quote inner
circle was doctor shopping to multiple physitions in different states
to obtain the ketamine and have.
Speaker 4 (31:28):
Those doctors send prescriptions. Across state lines. Perhaps that's the case,
but this is a federal offense. So for whatever reason,
Brooke Mueller is the only name that they have released.
And I agree with you, she is being questioned, she's cooperating,
but she's not necessarily a suspect.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Although I've got to agree also with Michael Mike McCormick
Wendy Patrick, because when the authorities keep coming back to
you and coming back to you, that's a concern in
an investigation. You would have thought that she would have
handed over her phone and laptop cooperating with them. And
we've been told she is cooperating and that would be
the end of it. But it could be as simple
(32:08):
as did they at one time have the same supplier?
What were they talking about? I don't know, but it
does rape raise a red flag Wendy Patrick that they
continue to question her.
Speaker 10 (32:22):
Yeah, it sounds almost like because the two of them
knew each other from a rehab facility, that perhaps they
shared a lot of information in addition to sharing mutual
friends that may have themselves relapsed and there in lives
where an investigation needs to go is that how much
information can she continue to provide once they are also
investigating leads from other places that they can then go
(32:45):
back and ask a supplement question. Doesn't mean she's a
suspect at all. I mean she may have the kind
of information that would be valuable for them to continue
to follow up on.
Speaker 7 (32:54):
Then when they find.
Speaker 10 (32:55):
Out new facts she can corroborate, she can admit deny.
Remember she's been cooperative, and that is what we have
to view in terms of turning over the phone in
the laptop, whether they were seized, whether she gave them voluntarily.
Speaker 7 (33:08):
It means that there's something in.
Speaker 10 (33:10):
Her past as well that may be instrumental, not incriminating
necessarily with respect to her, but instrumental and law enforcement
finding who's to blame? And the ultimate question where did
he get the drugs?
Speaker 1 (33:23):
We are being told that the criminal investigation into Matthew
Perry's death is quote wrapping up our charges to follow.
Another issue out to Mike McCormick, Honorarly and investigator mcm
investigations in LA is that when they showed up to
meet with her, meet with her at her sober living house,
(33:45):
they had a search warrant with them. Now I can
tell you this much. When I went to interview witnesses
in every square inch of the city of Atlanta, Fulton County.
I usually did not take a search warrant. I'd knock
on the door, they let me in. We'd sit down
and talk and I'd make notes. We'd have iced tea,
(34:07):
and that would be that. Once in a while i'd
have a subpoena with me to personally deliver it to
them for them to come to court, or a subpoena
duketikam for documents to come to court. But not a
search warrant. That is a subtle but very important distinction.
Speaker 9 (34:26):
Absolutely better to have it and not need it than
need it and not have it.
Speaker 1 (34:30):
But why a search warrant?
Speaker 9 (34:31):
Mike in kise can't get what they want voluntarily.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
It means Wendy Patrick and Mike McCormick is correct, But
it means they go to her for a reason. They
are seeking something. You have to have a search warrant
to enter a defendant's home, or to really for police
to enter any home, you've got to have a search warrant.
They're looking for something directly connected to a criminal investigation.
(35:00):
That's what a search want is. That's right, and.
Speaker 10 (35:02):
It has to be supported by sufficient facts and circumstances
to justify a judge having granted it.
Speaker 7 (35:08):
And that's important here because you think about all of
what was in that affidata.
Speaker 10 (35:11):
They would have had to explain what they're looking for,
what their experience is, and why they think that they're
going to find it on her devices, whether it's a phone,
whether it's a laptop. You can't just go out and
get a search warrant. You need to do all the
background investigation that allows you to articulate with secificity what
(35:31):
you're looking for, why you think it's going to be there,
and then of course you need a judge to agree
to all of that. So you have to imagine a
lot of that background information that they already did led
them to that point.
Speaker 2 (35:42):
Bombshell investigators and law enforcement are looking to charge multiple
suspects in the tragic ketamine death of Friends actor Matthew Perry.
Speaker 1 (35:52):
The incredental investigation to the death a Friends star Matthew
Perry is ongoing. We've been told it's very close to
being quote wrapped up. Will there be criminal charges as
it relates to Perry's death? Right now? We know that
his former girlfriend sweetheart Brooke Mueller has been questioned repeatedly
pursuant to search warrant. She has not been named a
(36:15):
target of the investigation. Perry himself wrote about his addiction Listen.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Matthew Perry wrote about his issues with addiction to alcohol
and drugs in his memoir. He said he began drinking
at fourteen and was an alcoholic by eighteen. Perry first
went to rehab and completed a twenty eight day program
at Hazelden Betty Ford Foundation after a jet ski accident
led to an addiction to vicoden. In his twenty twenty
two memoir Friends, Lovers and the Big Terrible Thing, Perry
(36:40):
claimed to have been to rehab fifteen times, detox sixty
five times, and spent about seven to nine million dollars
trying to get sober.
Speaker 1 (36:48):
You know what, I don't care about the money or
the fame this guy had. He was living in hell
trying to get out from under addiction. Okay, we know
about him, But who is she? Lauren Colin in a nutshell?
Brooke Mueller.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
Yes, Brooke Mueller is from Florida. She was actually born
in upstate New York. She had a very wealthy stepfather
and that led to her pretty much pursuing whatever she wanted.
She became friends with Paris Hilton, she did reality TV,
she was an actress at one point, and then she
did some real estate development and she ended up meeting
Charlie Sheen.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
So to doctor Bethany Marshall, and that makes many of
us regular mortals wonder when people have so much money
born with a silverspoon in their mouths her, I don't
know that he was necessarily born with a single silverspoon
in his mouth, but he became a superstar, money, fame,
suck ups all around you, seemingly having everything. Why drug addiction?
Speaker 6 (37:48):
You know, Nancy, drug addiction is very biologically motivated. You know,
there's so much talk about trauma and family dysfunction and
all the things that happened situationally that prime people for addiction.
But basically there's a very strong biological component. So let's
say you have the predisposition for addiction, and then you
(38:08):
have to quote you suck ups all around you that
really want you to not be aware of what's going on,
maybe con artists, maybe an agent or a manager who
wants to push you into jobs you're not ready for.
What is the best way to render somebody unaware of
what you're doing. If you want to take advantage of them,
supply them with drugs, then they'll pay you. Then you'll
(38:30):
be their best friend. And you know, doctors are not
immune from this. We saw this with Michael Jackson. You know,
celebrities when they have this horrible, horrible disease state, they
will go from one person to another to another until
they find somebody who will supply them. And Nancy, I
just want your audience to know that when an addict
(38:51):
or a person suffering from addiction has had some period
of sobriety, the next time they use they will binge. Okay,
that is so commonly known in the field. So let's
take Whitney Houston. She may have been sober for a
while before she had her you know, overdose when she
came to Los Angeles. We could have seen this with
Prince So he was in an enormously vulnerable state because
(39:13):
he was trying to get sober.
Speaker 7 (39:15):
So there was probably a big yo yo.
Speaker 6 (39:17):
Between sobriety binging, sobriety binging, and that became a perfect
storm that led to his death.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
It makes people wonder if superstars like Matthew Perry and
actress Brooke Mueller. With all that money, can't be happy
and resort to drugs and become addicts. What hope is
there for the rest of us? You know what, I'm
going to stay with being a teetotaler. I'm not even
going to put my toe in that pond. We wait
(39:47):
as just as unfolds and this criminal investigation into the
death a friend, star Matthew Perry comes to a culmination.
But right now we stop and we remember an American
hero police officer, Peter E. C. Jerving Milwaukee p D,
Wisconsin Officer Gerving shot killed in the line of duty,
(40:09):
survived by grieving parents Patty and Douglas, and beloved sweetheart Magan.
American hero police officer Peter E. C. Jerving. I want
to thank all of our guests tonight, a real brain
trust as we once again wide into addiction that ends
(40:30):
in death. Thank you for being with us. Nancy Gray
signing off, goodbye friend.
Host
Nancy Grace
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Ridiculous History
History is beautiful, brutal and, often, ridiculous. Join Ben Bowlin and Noel Brown as they dive into some of the weirdest stories from across the span of human civilization in Ridiculous History, a podcast by iHeartRadio.