April 9, 2020 • 46 mins
The bodies of Dr. Beth Potter and her husband, Robin Carre, were found in the early morning hour at UW Arboretum. The two had been shot, execution style, in the head. 18-year-old Khari Sanford, is arrested. What is his relationship to the family?
Joining Nancy Grace today to discuss:
- Troy Slaten - Criminal Defense Attorney, Los Angeles California
- Bobby Chacon - Former Special Agent FBI, screenwriter "Criminal Minds"
- Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author,"Blood Beneath My Feet"
- Dr Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta Ga
- Sierra Gillespie - WMTV NBC 15 Madison, WI. News Reporter
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi guys, Nancy Grace here at Crime Stories. We work
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Sirius XM, thank you for being our partner. How does
(01:09):
a lady doctor and her husband end up executed? Targeted, assassinated,
lying dead in a ditch? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace?
(01:36):
How does that happen? A lady doctor shot dead along
with her husband, no sign whatsoever of homicide, suicide packed
between them? Who would end a husband to shoot them dead?
On the side of the road, leaving their bodies in
a ditch. Take a listen now to WKOW news reporter
(02:00):
Andrew Meerka, we've learned the victims in yesterday's double homicide
where a UW doctor and her husband. The Dane County
Medical Examiner says fifty two year old doctor Beth Potter
and her husband, fifty seven year old Robin Carr, both
died of homicidal related trauma. UW Madison Police say someone
jogging through the arboretum around six thirty yesterday morning saw
(02:22):
Potter and car lying in a ditch. Car was pronounced
dead at the scene, while Potter died at the hospital.
Officers have worked around the clock to canvass the neighborhood
and trackdown leads, but so far still have no suspect.
Officers did confirm to twenty seven News that the killings
were targeted, though they're still investigating why. With me an
all star panel first of all renowned lawyer joining me
(02:44):
out of the LA jurisdiction. Troy Slayton has tried multiple
cases in multiple jurisdictions. Bobby Chicane, former FBI special agent, screenwriter,
Criminal Minds professor, Friend six Jacksonville State University, author of
Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott, Morgan, death
(03:06):
investigator and renowned psychiatrists joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction,
doctor Angela Arnold. But first to special guests joining us
from w MTV NBC fifteen Madison, Sierra Gillespie. Sierra, thank
you so much for being with us. Sierra, First of all,
explain what the lady doc and her husband were doing
(03:28):
at an arboretum at that time of day, Hiny and C. Yeah,
that's something we're still working to find out. I mean,
we do know that doctor Bess Potter was very active,
love to be outside. That's the jogging trail on the
campus of University of Wisconsin, Madison, but we don't know
for sure why they were there that morning. Interesting, Sierra
Gillespie WMTV. Why were they there because if it were
(03:52):
their usual jogging track, which I advise against, strongly against.
You know, Sierra Gillespie, I was doing a ton of
research for a book that's going to come out called
Don't Be a Victim, Fighting Back against America's Crime Wave,
and part of it is about staying safe while you're
exercising do not use the same route all the time.
(04:16):
That is what happened to Vanessa Marquette, that is what
happened to so many other people that use a regular
jogging path. And if you have somebody has a grudge
against you, or you're in a regular spot every day,
same time, you're a target for a killer. So I'm
just trying to figure out if that's what these two
(04:38):
were doing there, or if it's something even more clandestine,
such as they were lured there. I'm interested. Sarah Sierra
Gillespie joining me from WMTV NBC fifteen Madison Sierra. Do
we know what they were wearing? Were they wearing jogging outfits,
running issues? Any idea? As of right now, that information
(04:59):
has not been at least I've been pushing police on
more details, but they have been pretty tight lipped about this,
so I'm not sure whether they were wearing job interesting.
Interesting and there's a reason for that. Former FBI special
agent screenwriter on Criminal Minds, Bobby each Cone with me, Bobby,
It's very important that for a period of time at least,
(05:21):
cops keep certain details close to the vest. Why explain that,
Why not release what they were wearing? Why not tell
the public all the information. Maybe the public could help.
There's a reason for it, Bobby each Cone, True, Nancy,
and I think you hit on it when you said
they could have been lowered there. I mean we want
as an investigator, we want to keep everything as close
(05:41):
to the vest all the time. The reason we release
things for the public is if it invests, if it
aids the investigation. And so when we bring somebody into custody,
they have all kinds of stories. They'll deny what they did,
they'll denye where they were, and when we question them,
we want to be able to test they of their
statements to us. And the more we put out in public,
(06:03):
the more they can form their story or their baby
or whatever it is to fit the facts as they
know they are based on what's been released to the press.
So we try to keep very early on an investigation,
even before we have somebody to talk to a question
about it, as close to the vest, so that when
they start trying to explain their whereabouts or explain their behavior,
(06:24):
they're not doing it to try to conform to what
they know. We already know. Choice Layton, don't you just
love it when your client is being questioned by police,
of course before you get there to make it be quiet,
and they blurt out something like I didn't know they're
going to be jogging that day, when that hasn't been
(06:45):
released and only the killer would know that detail. Doesn't
that just strike a chord in you, choice, Laton, when
you see that in the transcript of what your client
has said. Well, that's why I always tell my clients
that nothing good from talking to the police. And even
in the situation where my client has done nothing wrong,
(07:07):
Oh that's every time. Because you've never had a guilty client,
have you most of the time, no, Nancy, But even
innocent people can sometimes get themselves embroiled in something by
speaking to the police, because the police not good investigators
like Bobby Chacone, but others can take innocent stories and
(07:28):
twist them to match the facts of a case. You know,
it's interesting, choice, Lytton. I used to tell my juries
when I would do closing statements, not openings, because those
are limited the facts. But in argument at closing, for instance,
if I would have a defendant run, I would very
clearly say to the jury, you know, when you see
(07:50):
a state trooper come up behind you on the interstate
what do you do hit the pedal to the mettle
and take off at one hundred mph? No, because you
don't need to flee. So why did this guy the
minute he sees the cops take off running nothing but
tailhole and elbows. That's all they could see. You ran
off in the distance. Why why run? So it's what
(08:11):
you're saying, Bobby Chicoon. Did you hear that nothing good
comes out of talking to police? I talked to police.
I don't take off at one hundred mph. So, yeah,
you know, Troy does an excellent shot for his clients.
But you know that's the that's the problem that we
have is that you're a problem. Troy. You're a problem. Yeah.
(08:32):
We you know, we need early an investigation. We need
everybody to be as honest and open as we can.
And you know, I think that personally in my in
my career of many many good things have happened to
people because they've talked to the police and talked to me.
And you know what, Bobby Chicoon, I will never forget
when you and I first taught in depth, you were
(08:53):
in charge of a rescue, well, a recovery mission of
a young girl that have been kidnapped from a coffee stand.
She had been raped, she had been murdered. You were
trying to find her body. You ended up deep diving
in subzero water to pull up body parts in plastic bags.
(09:15):
You know what you're talking about, as do you. Troy
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, for those of you
just joining us, we are talking about doctor Beth Potter
(09:38):
and her husband Robin apparently targeted for assassination in a ditch.
As a matter of fact, take a listen to what
friends say about these two. Who would want them assassinate?
Think about your favorite neighbor and then you find out
they've been shot dead, targeted in a ditch. This is
(09:59):
a wm TV NBC fifteen. Our friend, Sierra Gillespie. The
scene of the UW Arboretum is quiet today, but just
two days ago, the bodies of Robin Carry and his wife,
doctor Beth Potter were found in the Arboretum ditch. Friends
we spoke to say they're still coming to terms with
this loss. There are Noah's family. Friends call the loss devastating,
(10:22):
saying fifty two year old doctor Beth Potter and fifty
seven year old Robin Carry were staples of the community.
Potter worked as a doctor with UW Health, recently taking
the lead on COVID nineteen care for employee health. Friends
say social distancing makes news of their deaths harder to
cope with. I would say it's devastating because everybody wants
(10:44):
to get together and celebrate his life and support one
another and this tough time. The pair had three children
and spent many hours supporting their love of soccer, carry
even acting as coach. He had a love and enthusiasm
game with everything you did, all the people he knew,
you know, I immediately thought Sierra Gillespie joining me special
(11:06):
guest WMTV, NBC fifteen there in Madison. I immediately thought
of my son's basketball coach and he's been his coach
now for years, and his soccer coach and my daughter's
volleyball coaches. I love them. And You've got a special
(11:27):
place in heaven to be a coach to, for instance,
little league. And I'm thinking about these two. I mean,
who could be more scrubbed in sunshine than a doctor
fighting COVID nineteen and a soccer coach. For Pete's sake,
what do we know about these two? And Siah Sierra Gillespie.
I'm asking because very often you identify a killer based
(11:50):
on the circle of associates of the victim. You start
with the family, then you start moving out. So what
do we really know, Sierra Gillespie. I mean, I just
covered a case where this local DJ, April Kaufman I
think was her name, was married to an upstanding doctor
or had his own clinic or to the hospital. How
(12:11):
did we know he was selling oxy to Hell's Angels
and he had a drug ring going. Nobody knew. So
what can you tell me about these victims? The only
thing I hear about them, it's all wonderful. Yeah. Actually,
some of the friends that I spoke with you heard
him in that story. I asked him what do you
want them to be remembered for? And he said, honestly,
(12:35):
it would be very difficult for you to find somebody
who could say something bad about them. They were just
really good people. I mean, for twenty years, Robin Carry
was coaching soccer in the Madison area, give three kids,
and that's from when they were about five or six
until I mean graduating high school. Thousands of kids he
was coaching and working with their parents and honestly. I mean,
(12:56):
like you were talking about with your kids, these people
or angels to work with young children and to form
them and to learn all the rules and regulations. I mean,
you learn a lot out of sports, more than just
the actual game. So that was Robin Carry and his wife,
doctor Bess Potter. I mean we touched on it there too,
just days before her murder. She was working on COVID
nineteen research. I mean, she really cares about the community.
(13:20):
She was a prominent professor here at w Madison. And
another thing that friends were telling me to these people
were pillars of the community. They were a big deal
here and they really cared about the Madison area. You
know what, Sierra Gillespie, I'm sure you didn't maintay, but
you're really hurting me. I'll tell you why. Doctor Angela
Arnold is a renowned psychiatrist in the Atlanta jurisdiction. Doctor Angela,
(13:44):
I had to wrestle with this for the first time
as really a young girl when my fiance was Martyred.
Keith was like a ray of sunshine. Couldn't be more
good natured, smart, handsome. On baseball scholarship, I mean, you
(14:05):
couldn't ask for anyone sweeter or better heart than him.
And then he's murdered by somebody that worked on a
construction crew, got fired the week before Keith started his job.
And we always hear that question, doctor Angela, why do
bad things happened to good people? I still don't understand it.
(14:28):
I mean, I accept it, but I don't understand it,
doctor Angela. And this left this community struggling with these
two murders. Well, I don't think we're ever going to
completely understand it, Nancy. But if but if the tourers
were trying, and I don't know, but if the killers
were trying to make some sort of statement, then who
better to kill than the pillers of the society. That's
(14:50):
a heck of a statement. What statement? I've just got
to think, to Joe Scott Morgan, following up on what
doctor Angela Arnold just said, this is more than just
some statement. It's not about COVID nineteen, it's not about soccer.
So when you are presented, Joe Scott Morgan, with an
(15:11):
outdoor crime scene, that's a whole different animal than a
contained crime scene, such as in somebody's basement or their
garage or their car. When you've got two dead bodies
in a ditch, You've got a serious crime scene challenge.
Joseph Scott Morgan. Yeah, it's important. You've mentioned the word
(15:33):
ditch several times. That goes to my thought that there
was a potential attempt, at least superficially, to conceal what
had been done they're put into. They're referring to a ditch.
I don't know if it's actually a ditch as we
think about. It might be a depressed area, but my
suspicion is it's running along the side of one of
(15:54):
these walking trails. Now, from an evidentury standpoint, let's say,
for instance, they were walked out there. They were just
taken to that isolated location. Why so close to the road,
you know, why would you do it there? Or were
the individuals laying in wait for these individuals, say, for instance,
the people are persons that might have targeted them. And
(16:18):
that's another word that keeps coming up over and over
and over again. If they were waiting out there, we're
gonna have evidence, say, for instance, like footprints, because this
is a nature area. We're talking about soft kind of
malleable dirt, an arboretum, and for anybody that doesn't know
arboretum is like a botanical garden that's specifically devoted to trees.
(16:40):
That's my understanding of what an arboretum is. Go go ahead, Yeah,
And so the soil is going to be very kind
of loamy and soft and that sort of thing. And
if you have safe, for instance, a couple of people
or one person that's waiting behind a tree and an
area of concealment, if you can identify that area, you
can go and look and see if they're our footprints,
(17:01):
say that have been left behind or other items, Say
they were smoking a cigarette and they dropped it there
while they were waiting. How long had they been waiting there?
And why go to the trouble of placing these individuals,
these victims in a ditch. That those are two big
questions that come up with me, Bobby Chicone. Couldn't you
tell from the crime scene whether they had been killed
(17:22):
elsewhere and disposed of in the ditch or whether they
were killed in the ditch? And unlike in a contained
crime scene such as in a bedroom or in a
car or in the basement, you're not going to be
able to get, for instance, blood spatter versus blood drops,
which are a big difference evidentiary wise, it's going to
(17:43):
be a more difficult feat to figure out what exactly
happened when you're out in nature. The blood seeps into
the ground, it's harder to find, the wind blows, the
soil is disturbed. How can you tell if they were
killed there or they were deposited there. Well, you're exactly right, Nancy.
It will be more difficult, and it will be more
(18:03):
difficult depending on the weather and how long they were there. Um.
But there are some telltale signs that will um will
take place. Like you said, did they have their jogging
clothes on? Were they out there? You'll look at their clothes,
will examine their clothes, what they had on them. Um.
We will be able to tell hopefully where they came
from in the immediate preceding hours, again depending on how
(18:24):
long they were there and the weather that was was
existed while they were there. Um. But there are certain
things we will tell. You will not be able to
tell as much obviously as an indoor crime scene that
was static and that was preserved. Um. There are a
few things that are that are vital that you might
be able to tell and might be able to to
to um to determine and that is were they jogging, um?
(18:46):
Were they in a car recently? Were they you know,
were they outdoors you know, for for an extended period
of time. So there are things and all of those
pieces will be gathered as much as they can UM
and to build the story of what happened in the
seating hours you know, before their deaths. Prime stories with
(19:16):
Nancy Grace. Guys, how does a college professor doing COVID
nineteen research and her husband, soccer coach for years end
up executed in a ditch at an arboretum, a botanical garden.
Nobody saw anything, Nobody knows anything. Take a listen now
(19:37):
to our friends at wi SC Channel three, Madeline O'Neill
u W police tell me they have no update today
as they continue the search for a suspect or suspects
in the deaths of Beth Potter and Robin carry Here
at the arboretum, a double homicide they say was targeted.
People I spoke with today close to the two say
the husband and wife were amazing parents of three and
(20:01):
the loss of them was leaving a really big hole.
He was definitely missed when he wasn't here. Robin Carry
was always around at training four Warriors, the fitness program
referred to as a dojo in Middleton, something fellow Jim
Goers took to heart. He's always dollars, had something to say.
(20:21):
And then even though what was going on in the play,
always something and it was it was a dit to
be your argument. We have a swear jar and it's
a dollar for the word can't. And he would put
a dollar in safe because he didn't want to do
chin ups. That's a tiny peak into the psyches of
(20:43):
these two murder victims. They a lot of people have
a swear jar in their home. If you say an
ugly word, you have to put in a dollar. Their
swear word was can't. I can't And one of them
put in ten dollars ahead of time in case. He said.
We are trying to unravel the mystery of a college
(21:04):
professor and her husband found dead in a ditch, and
I think of my sister, who is a college professor,
a real brainiac, with her nose in a book, constantly
researching and writing and teaching classes. Who in the world
would want to gun down a college professor and her
(21:26):
soccer coach husband, who would do something like that. We
are left with trying to analyze the clues left in
a ditch, a ditch police being extremely close to the
vest in the case. But when you look at the
personalities of doctor Beth Potter and her husband, Robin Carey,
(21:47):
who in the world would have targeted them. Now, I'm
sure you all remember the case of Tara Grinstead, the
Beauty Queen high school teacher working on her master's degree
who goes missing and has never seen alive again after
a school barbecue. Years passed before the killer was traced
(22:10):
back to being wonderful student years before she was killed.
So too, doctor Angela Arnold, psychiatrists joining me from the
Atlanta area. Doctor Arnold, you never know in that case,
Tera Grinstead's killer was one of her students years before.
Now we have doctor Beth Potter, a professor there in Wisconsin.
(22:35):
I think the reason they're saying they're targeted, Doctor Angela Arnold,
is because there's no rape. There's no sex attack, and
apparently no robbery. So with no robbery and no rape,
no sex attack, what's the potential motive to kill somebody
out in the open and leave their bodies hidden in
a ditch. You never know who you're teaching, who you're
(22:56):
working with that may be murderous. Doctor Angela Arnold. It's
very scary, isn't it. And Nancy, one of the one
of the questions that's just going through my mind is
could this could this have been some sort of gang
related activity? Could this could this have been a gang initiation?
I find it really hard to believe, Bobby Chico, that
(23:19):
gangman members are hanging out at an arboretum, the botanical gardens. Yeah.
Having work gangs in New York City in the eighties,
I don't it doesn't seem to me like it would
be the type of gang initiations. When they do try
to initiate members by pulling off a violent crime, it's
usually a violent crime that's consistent with other activities of
the gang. It'll be a robbery or drug robbery or
(23:42):
something like that. On those lines. It will also be
a victim unfortunately that is benefits the gang to be killed.
It'll be a rival gang member, or it'll be a
store owner that hasn't paid extortion money or something like that.
It'll be something at least peripherbly related to the gang activities. Guys,
we are talking about the shocking murders of a college
(24:03):
professor fighting COVID nineteen through research and her husband both
found dead slang shot dead in a ditch, and then
a stunning turn in the case. Take a listen to
our friends at mass and PD. This is Chief Kristen Roman. Understandably,
(24:24):
a violent crime such as this creates significant concern and
fear throughout the community. To this, I offer that the
suspect is known to the family. We believe that this
was not a random act. It was calculated, cold blooded
and senseless, and we will continue to do all we
can to bring justice to Robin and Beth, their family,
(24:47):
and their loved ones. While this arrest is a significant development,
no criminal investigation ends at the point of an arrest.
This remains a very active police investiga and I encourage
anyone who may yet have information about this case to
contact us. A sudden and unexpected arrest goes down in
(25:09):
the case. But what do we know, Jackie. Let's go
to cut seven. This is NBC fifteen NIJE reporter. Our
friend joining us today, Sierra Gillespie, eighteen year old Cary Sandford.
What we do know? He was a senior here at
Madison West High School and personally knew Robin Carry and
(25:29):
doctor Beth Potter's family. It was calculated, cold blooded, and senseless.
Police say Sandford specifically targeted Carry and Potter. What we
don't know is why a jograph found the couple in
a ditch early Tuesday morning. Since that time, we have
worked tirelessly to investigate this heinous crime and find those responsible.
(25:51):
NBC fifteen has confirmed Sandford played football at Madison West
High School, where the couple's daughter, Mimi goes to school.
Court record show officers arrested Stanford last year on a
Class A misdemeanor account of auto theft. We will continue
to do all we can to bring justice to Robin
and Beth, their family, and their loved ones. Wow. Okay,
(26:14):
an unexpected arrest of a young man, a teen and
this is what we know to Sierra Gillespie special guests
joining us from WMTV NBC fifty Madison. So the killer
went to school with the victim's daughter, went to high
school with Mimi the daughter. Yeah, So what we know
(26:36):
is he went to Madison West High School and Mimi
is still a student there right now. We also know
that Robin Carry helped coach with the Madison West Soccer club,
so we know that they were both very involved with
the area, and this eighteen year old carry Sandford, had
to have known the family. We also do know from
his Facebook he was friends with Mimi, the daughter. They
(27:00):
had had a couple of comments back and forth together,
so we knew that they definitely had a relation together. Okay,
hold on, whoa, whoa, whoa, Sierra Gillespie. As this is unfolding,
the only connection we really see is that the alleged
trigger man, eighteen year old went to school with the
victim's daughter, Mimi. And I understand that the dad coached
(27:25):
some at that school, but he coached soccer and this guy,
the trigger man, was a football player, so that he
would not have coached him. So the connection is the
teen daughter Mimi. Right, That's exactly right. Let me understand,
you know, off, I guess Facebook comments back and forth
(27:47):
between Mimi and the alleged trigger man, what kind of comments.
So some of his Facebook is kind of blocked off,
but from what I found before it was deactivated, she
had commented on one of his posts bay like the
abbreviation for before anyone else, and it had a little
emoji with a heart, so we know that they clearly
(28:07):
were familiar with each other. Were they dating that We
don't know for sure as of yet, but I mean
I don't call my friends bay. Wow. This is a
wrinkle in the case no one expected and opens up
a host of possibilities. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace for
(28:42):
those of you just joining us, I Nancy Grace, this
is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here
at Fox Nation. As well as Serious XM one eleven.
The circumstances surrounding the death of a college profess us
or and her husband have been murky. They are beginning
(29:05):
to clear up, you know. To Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,
jacksonvill State, this was an illustration I almost always used
with juries. I started the case with a giant jar
(29:26):
of water, and it had silt at the bottom, and
as I began opening statements, I would shake it in
front of the jury and it would become muddy, set
it on my table and the case would start. At
(29:48):
the end of the case it would be clear again,
and as I argue the facts in closing statement, I
would hold it back up and say, see, it's not money. Anymore.
It's clear what happened. As we go through this case,
we are learning more and more. Joe Scott, what do
(30:12):
you make of these online exchanges between the trigger man
and the victim's daughter, Mimi, Not to suggest she's involved
in this in any way. Here's my thought, Nancy, if
if there is connectivity between these two and like you said,
this poor little girl who is now literally an orphan,
(30:36):
oh is not, you know, she's not. How old is
your son, Joe Scott, Well, he's just turned eighteen, Nancy,
I can't believe it. Mine just turned twelve. Can you
imagine then growing up without either parent as a young teen. Yeah,
it's hard to even comprehend that in this critical point
(30:59):
in their life, if an individual had developed an obsession over,
say this young girl, it could go to a motive.
I think one of the things we need to keep
in mind, Nancy, this is not some kind of a
passive event their desks. They've been charged with first degree homicide,
(31:21):
and you have the attack on two specific people. This
is a brutal killing, and so that goes to you
know why, you know, we keep talking about why the
world would somebody target these two individuals, Well, why would
you You know, it's like going in, you know and
pinching the heads off of roses. You know, why why
are you going to do that? To destroy something that's
(31:42):
so beautiful like this, You have to have a specific
motivation to just bring down this kind of wrath and
violence on two individuals that would end their life. So,
you know, one of the things we always look at
as investigators who is in that circle and who are
intimates in that environment? And this individual might have perceived
themselves as being an intimate. Guys, take a listen to
(32:05):
our friend Francisco Almanara wk ABC twenty seven years reporter
now with eighteen year old Elijah LaRue and custody in
connection with the murder. UW police are now confirming that
the couple had in fact been shot or to a
point where we can confidently start releasing some more information
to help our community better understand what happened, and that's
(32:28):
what we were able to do today. Mark Love Account
with the UWPD says they can't say what the victims
were doing in the arboretum that morning, but he did
say that is where they were shot and killed. He says,
investigating the department's first ever double homicide during the pandemic.
Has posed many challenges, but they're making progress. It's been
(32:50):
fantastic police work in a really, really tough time, and
our folks are tired, but they're doing really well and
it's it's been a remarkable week. The bodies of this
professor and her husband found in a ditch by a
jogger six thirty am. And remember, as Joe Scott Morgan
(33:11):
ported out, the professor, doctor Beth Potter, was still alive
at some level at that time, so that the shootings
could not have been much before six thirty am. It
was in the u W Arboretum. It's a research, popular
recreational area with over a thousand acres of forest and prairie.
(33:35):
Arboretum is a botanical garden devoted specifically to trees in
their natural state. Why it is some sort of motive
beginning to arise to Sierra Gillespie joining us WMTV, NBC
fifteen Madison, Sierra. Now there is a second perp. Who's
(33:56):
the second purp? So we know that the second person
arrested in this case is eighteen year old Elijah LaRue,
and we also know that he went to not u
W Madison, actually Madison West High School, I should say
so yesterday I was working to do a little bit
more digging about this eighteen year old and I reached
out to Mark Levicott, the police officer. We actually just
(34:18):
heard from him, and he told me all we can
say is there were acquaintances. But I mean, for somebody
who's going to commit a brutal crime like this, officers
are calling it senseless, cold blooded, heinous. I mean, they
have to be more than acquaintances, you know. I'm trying
to get into the psyche of what would make you
commit such a crime. To doctor Angela Arnold helped me out.
(34:42):
We know that one of the teams, eighteen years old,
treated as an adult under the law, knew their daughter,
who's still in high school. This means he's, you know,
at least a couple of years older than her. That's
the only real connection we've got but a into Sierra Gillespie.
The two had exchanged at least exchanged emails online. But
(35:05):
to shoot the parents dead, well, I know, and in
such a calculatd wies it so early in the morning.
I mean, I've got so many questions in my head
about this. Did he perceive that the parents were somehow
standing in his way of going out with their daughter.
I don't know. I think there's so much that's going
(35:25):
to be found out about this, don't you say? I agree,
Troy Slayton, I once had a murder over ten dollars.
Ten dollars a murder over ten dollars, So it could
be a perceived slight. It could be any number of things.
And of course, Troy Slayton, you're the defense attorney. The
state doesn't have to prove motive. But reasonably speaking, when
(35:49):
you're arguing something to a jury, if you don't present
a motive, you've got a problem in your case. And
Joseph Scott Morgan pointed it out that motive here is
not clear. Why would two young boys murder these two
pillars of the community. Something's not making sense, something doesn't
(36:09):
smell good. And just because a young girl is calling
somebody bay. Look, my twelve year old daughter writes to
her friends online all the time and calls everybody bay.
So that doesn't mean anything. And I think that police
saying that this is targeted, although it is senseless and tragic,
(36:29):
we don't know that these people were targeted. Six boys.
You think two teas are in the arboretum at six
thirty in the morning with guns. They don't rape, they
don't steal, and they shoot these two and oh yeah,
they happen to know their daughter, their high school age daughter.
That's targeted, Troy. How can that not be anything but targeted?
(36:53):
Something's not making sense. Yeah, you you're not making sense.
Claim this is not targeted. Oh I think I just
gotten mulling in the background or is that Bobby Bobby? Well,
you know, it may not seem to make sense, but
it certainly makes sense to the police and prosecutors. The
prosecutor has charged them with first degree murder. And this
was lightning investigative work. That the victims were found Tuesday morning.
(37:14):
The first arrest was Thursday night, the second arrest was
Saturday morning. Um so, and and they've come out with,
you know, phrases like targeted. So they obviously know a
lot more than we know. So it may not make
sense to us, but it looks like it makes perfect
sense to the police and the prosecutors in this case.
Prosecutors are very hesitant to file serious charges like this
(37:35):
this quickly unless they have some pretty damning evidence. In
their possession time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, I'm hearing
(37:58):
in my ear. We have an update on the case,
straight out to Dave Mattcrime online dot Com investigative reporter
Dave what happened and to what we're finding out is
that the suspect, Caldy Sandford, actually had been living with
the victims and had been dating their adopted daughter, Miriam,
(38:24):
in a relationship they've been going on for a long time.
Two weeks before this shooting occurred, they were that Potter
moved her daughter and Sanford out of the house because
they refused to distance themselves socially. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait,
(38:45):
so you're telling me doctor Potter moved her daughter, Mimi,
Miriam and her I guess they'd been letting Carrie Sandford,
now charged in their murders, eighteen year old football star
Carrie Sandford, who goes to high school with the daughter Mimi,
the adopted daughter Mimi. They're letting him live in the
(39:07):
home with Mimi. And it's my understanding that the doctor,
doctor Beth Potter, had some immune issue and she could
not be close to people. It's my understanding, day Mac,
she felt that her daughter Mimi and her living teen lover.
(39:29):
We're not respecting her and we're not keeping the social
distance in the time of COVID nineteen. So she moves
them into an airbnb. She doesn't throw them out on
the street. She moves them into an apartment airbnb not
far from home. Is that right, Dave mac Absolutely correct, Nancy.
And according to one of the individuals that Beth Potter
(39:52):
worked with at the University lg is how she's labeled
in the documents that a conversation and that said that
her daughter Miriam, that they wouldn't social distance. They stayed
in the room all day her in Sanford, ordering food,
but then they would leave the house and go out
and just ramble around and then come back home. And
we're just being totally disrespectful of the rules that him
(40:13):
and laid down because of as you mentioned, Beth Potter,
doctor Potter's immune system is also we know that her husband,
the husband Robin, had self quarantined so he would not
hurt his wife, so he would not expose her to
COVID nineteen potentially. And then the daughter Mimi allegedly just
(40:36):
stays hold up in her bedroom all day where their
football star boyfriend ordering takeout and watching TV and whatever
else they're doing alone in the bedroom. So she finally
gets tired of them breathing all over her, not respecting
the rules, and then shells out for them to be
in an airbnb. She pays for their place. What can
(40:57):
you tell me, Dave Mack about stations alleged conversations coming
to light about how the daughter, Mimi, was bragging that
her parents were rich and they had a lot of bands,
which is thousands of dollars. Well, early in the month
of March, a friend of there before school was suspended,
a friend overheard Miriam and Sandford talking about the need
(41:20):
for money, and Miriam flat I said, hey, my folks
are rich. They got bands, referring to the thousands of cash.
And this was over her bragging about the money they had.
And at the time, Sandford had just moved in with
Miriam and her folks, So this is a couple of
weeks before they were forced to move out, so they
were living together in this very wealthy situation. Yeah, thanks
(41:42):
to the mother and the father's hard work working their
fingers to the bone. We are also learning right now.
According to an unnamed source, a detective stating that I
almost hate to say it. The husband, Robin, was face
down with the wound to his head, wearing only his underwear.
(42:04):
There were several three fifty seven cig shellcasings in the
area around the male victim. The female victim had been
located blood spatter and pooling, indicating the victims haven't shot
there at the arboretum. But she had on her pj's
and socks. He had on underwear. So it sounds to
(42:25):
me that these two teens, one the teen lover of
the dead couple's daughter, had forced them out of their home.
I guess while they were sleeping, because I remember the
six thirty in the morning. I'm also learning and correct
me if I'm wrong, Dave, because there's a lot of
information coming out right now that JAG not only found them,
(42:48):
but they heard some shots after six am in the morning,
then the bodies were found. Is that right? Not exactly, Nancy.
What we've been told is that they have tracked the
cell phone of one of these suspects near the home
(43:08):
of Beth Potter on the night on the thirtieth. Okay, now,
at about eleven o'clock eleven o two, an ear witness
around the arboretum heard two gunshots at eleven oh two,
and then four more four to five more gunshots coming
immediately after that, a total of six or seven shots
(43:31):
fired a little after eleven o'clock. Thank you. So the
shots were at eleven o'clock the night before. They must
have aroused to them out of bed. She's got on
her pj's, he has on underwear, and then the bodies
are found. Thank you. That's very significant, very significant, your correction,
Dave Mack, because the shootings were we think that night
(43:55):
around eleven. Isn't it true that the boyfriend and his buddy,
one of them show up at a friend's house excited
and agitated and upset in very concern that the wife,
the mom, had been rushed to the hospital and was
still alive. Absolutely, Nancy. The word that we've gotten is
(44:18):
that when they were agitated and excited, and then finding
out in the news that doctor Beth Potter had said,
of course they weren't named at the time, but that
the woman had survived the initial shooting, Sanford apparently was
heard saying, I know I shot him, you know, I
know I took them, and you know there were two
(44:39):
shots in Beth catter one in Robin to the just
above the ear on the left side of his head.
She was shot in the head and in the arm,
and she was when they discovered her, she was about
thirty degrees. He say, she was wearing pajamas and somebody
was down to thirty degrees. Yes, correct. And about Mimi Miriam,
(45:03):
the daughter Nancy, this is the part that bothers me.
She hasn't in charge yet, but you know, she actually
alibied Sanford. She said told the police that they were
at their airbnb the entire night of the thirtieth and
the thirty version that they did not leave, didn't she
text somebody about she was, you know, two rooms over
(45:24):
from them, and they had gotten back. We know that
she was texting Sandford when she told the police that
they were together at that airbnb, you know, and she
claimed that they had the text messages back and forth
where you know, she was trying to find out what
was going on. And you know, police are like, well,
if you guys are vote here together at the same time,
(45:44):
why are you texting him? You know, So we know
that she's texting him while this is going on, while
she claims they're in that Airbnb together. We understand that
after the two Sandford and LaRue had come back to
the apartment where the daughter Miriam known as Mimi, was,
she texted and unidentified friends saying, quote, I want to cry,
(46:09):
but I'm also in an apartment with them and it's
literally two and a half rooms, so that's fun. But
they come back. So we know that she alibied him
knowing that he was gone. We know that much right now.
As of right now, the daughter Miriam has not been charged.
(46:32):
We wait as justice unfools. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing
off goodbye friend,
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Sirius XM, thank you for being our partner. How does
(01:09):
a lady doctor and her husband end up executed? Targeted, assassinated,
lying dead in a ditch? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace?
(01:36):
How does that happen? A lady doctor shot dead along
with her husband, no sign whatsoever of homicide, suicide packed
between them? Who would end a husband to shoot them dead?
On the side of the road, leaving their bodies in
a ditch. Take a listen now to WKOW news reporter
(02:00):
Andrew Meerka, we've learned the victims in yesterday's double homicide
where a UW doctor and her husband. The Dane County
Medical Examiner says fifty two year old doctor Beth Potter
and her husband, fifty seven year old Robin Carr, both
died of homicidal related trauma. UW Madison Police say someone
jogging through the arboretum around six thirty yesterday morning saw
(02:22):
Potter and car lying in a ditch. Car was pronounced
dead at the scene, while Potter died at the hospital.
Officers have worked around the clock to canvass the neighborhood
and trackdown leads, but so far still have no suspect.
Officers did confirm to twenty seven News that the killings
were targeted, though they're still investigating why. With me an
all star panel first of all renowned lawyer joining me
(02:44):
out of the LA jurisdiction. Troy Slayton has tried multiple
cases in multiple jurisdictions. Bobby Chicane, former FBI special agent, screenwriter,
Criminal Minds professor, Friend six Jacksonville State University, author of
Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott, Morgan, death
(03:06):
investigator and renowned psychiatrists joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction,
doctor Angela Arnold. But first to special guests joining us
from w MTV NBC fifteen Madison, Sierra Gillespie. Sierra, thank
you so much for being with us. Sierra, First of all,
explain what the lady doc and her husband were doing
(03:28):
at an arboretum at that time of day, Hiny and C. Yeah,
that's something we're still working to find out. I mean,
we do know that doctor Bess Potter was very active,
love to be outside. That's the jogging trail on the
campus of University of Wisconsin, Madison, but we don't know
for sure why they were there that morning. Interesting, Sierra
Gillespie WMTV. Why were they there because if it were
(03:52):
their usual jogging track, which I advise against, strongly against.
You know, Sierra Gillespie, I was doing a ton of
research for a book that's going to come out called
Don't Be a Victim, Fighting Back against America's Crime Wave,
and part of it is about staying safe while you're
exercising do not use the same route all the time.
(04:16):
That is what happened to Vanessa Marquette, that is what
happened to so many other people that use a regular
jogging path. And if you have somebody has a grudge
against you, or you're in a regular spot every day,
same time, you're a target for a killer. So I'm
just trying to figure out if that's what these two
(04:38):
were doing there, or if it's something even more clandestine,
such as they were lured there. I'm interested. Sarah Sierra
Gillespie joining me from WMTV NBC fifteen Madison Sierra. Do
we know what they were wearing? Were they wearing jogging outfits,
running issues? Any idea? As of right now, that information
(04:59):
has not been at least I've been pushing police on
more details, but they have been pretty tight lipped about this,
so I'm not sure whether they were wearing job interesting.
Interesting and there's a reason for that. Former FBI special
agent screenwriter on Criminal Minds, Bobby each Cone with me, Bobby,
It's very important that for a period of time at least,
(05:21):
cops keep certain details close to the vest. Why explain that,
Why not release what they were wearing? Why not tell
the public all the information. Maybe the public could help.
There's a reason for it, Bobby each Cone, True, Nancy,
and I think you hit on it when you said
they could have been lowered there. I mean we want
as an investigator, we want to keep everything as close
(05:41):
to the vest all the time. The reason we release
things for the public is if it invests, if it
aids the investigation. And so when we bring somebody into custody,
they have all kinds of stories. They'll deny what they did,
they'll denye where they were, and when we question them,
we want to be able to test they of their
statements to us. And the more we put out in public,
(06:03):
the more they can form their story or their baby
or whatever it is to fit the facts as they
know they are based on what's been released to the press.
So we try to keep very early on an investigation,
even before we have somebody to talk to a question
about it, as close to the vest, so that when
they start trying to explain their whereabouts or explain their behavior,
(06:24):
they're not doing it to try to conform to what
they know. We already know. Choice Layton, don't you just
love it when your client is being questioned by police,
of course before you get there to make it be quiet,
and they blurt out something like I didn't know they're
going to be jogging that day, when that hasn't been
(06:45):
released and only the killer would know that detail. Doesn't
that just strike a chord in you, choice, Laton, when
you see that in the transcript of what your client
has said. Well, that's why I always tell my clients
that nothing good from talking to the police. And even
in the situation where my client has done nothing wrong,
(07:07):
Oh that's every time. Because you've never had a guilty client,
have you most of the time, no, Nancy, But even
innocent people can sometimes get themselves embroiled in something by
speaking to the police, because the police not good investigators
like Bobby Chacone, but others can take innocent stories and
(07:28):
twist them to match the facts of a case. You know,
it's interesting, choice, Lytton. I used to tell my juries
when I would do closing statements, not openings, because those
are limited the facts. But in argument at closing, for instance,
if I would have a defendant run, I would very
clearly say to the jury, you know, when you see
(07:50):
a state trooper come up behind you on the interstate
what do you do hit the pedal to the mettle
and take off at one hundred mph? No, because you
don't need to flee. So why did this guy the
minute he sees the cops take off running nothing but
tailhole and elbows. That's all they could see. You ran
off in the distance. Why why run? So it's what
(08:11):
you're saying, Bobby Chicoon. Did you hear that nothing good
comes out of talking to police? I talked to police.
I don't take off at one hundred mph. So, yeah,
you know, Troy does an excellent shot for his clients.
But you know that's the that's the problem that we
have is that you're a problem. Troy. You're a problem. Yeah.
(08:32):
We you know, we need early an investigation. We need
everybody to be as honest and open as we can.
And you know, I think that personally in my in
my career of many many good things have happened to
people because they've talked to the police and talked to me.
And you know what, Bobby Chicoon, I will never forget
when you and I first taught in depth, you were
(08:53):
in charge of a rescue, well, a recovery mission of
a young girl that have been kidnapped from a coffee stand.
She had been raped, she had been murdered. You were
trying to find her body. You ended up deep diving
in subzero water to pull up body parts in plastic bags.
(09:15):
You know what you're talking about, as do you. Troy
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, for those of you
just joining us, we are talking about doctor Beth Potter
(09:38):
and her husband Robin apparently targeted for assassination in a ditch.
As a matter of fact, take a listen to what
friends say about these two. Who would want them assassinate?
Think about your favorite neighbor and then you find out
they've been shot dead, targeted in a ditch. This is
(09:59):
a wm TV NBC fifteen. Our friend, Sierra Gillespie. The
scene of the UW Arboretum is quiet today, but just
two days ago, the bodies of Robin Carry and his wife,
doctor Beth Potter were found in the Arboretum ditch. Friends
we spoke to say they're still coming to terms with
this loss. There are Noah's family. Friends call the loss devastating,
(10:22):
saying fifty two year old doctor Beth Potter and fifty
seven year old Robin Carry were staples of the community.
Potter worked as a doctor with UW Health, recently taking
the lead on COVID nineteen care for employee health. Friends
say social distancing makes news of their deaths harder to
cope with. I would say it's devastating because everybody wants
(10:44):
to get together and celebrate his life and support one
another and this tough time. The pair had three children
and spent many hours supporting their love of soccer, carry
even acting as coach. He had a love and enthusiasm
game with everything you did, all the people he knew,
you know, I immediately thought Sierra Gillespie joining me special
(11:06):
guest WMTV, NBC fifteen there in Madison. I immediately thought
of my son's basketball coach and he's been his coach
now for years, and his soccer coach and my daughter's
volleyball coaches. I love them. And You've got a special
(11:27):
place in heaven to be a coach to, for instance,
little league. And I'm thinking about these two. I mean,
who could be more scrubbed in sunshine than a doctor
fighting COVID nineteen and a soccer coach. For Pete's sake,
what do we know about these two? And Siah Sierra Gillespie.
I'm asking because very often you identify a killer based
(11:50):
on the circle of associates of the victim. You start
with the family, then you start moving out. So what
do we really know, Sierra Gillespie. I mean, I just
covered a case where this local DJ, April Kaufman I
think was her name, was married to an upstanding doctor
or had his own clinic or to the hospital. How
(12:11):
did we know he was selling oxy to Hell's Angels
and he had a drug ring going. Nobody knew. So
what can you tell me about these victims? The only
thing I hear about them, it's all wonderful. Yeah. Actually,
some of the friends that I spoke with you heard
him in that story. I asked him what do you
want them to be remembered for? And he said, honestly,
(12:35):
it would be very difficult for you to find somebody
who could say something bad about them. They were just
really good people. I mean, for twenty years, Robin Carry
was coaching soccer in the Madison area, give three kids,
and that's from when they were about five or six
until I mean graduating high school. Thousands of kids he
was coaching and working with their parents and honestly. I mean,
(12:56):
like you were talking about with your kids, these people
or angels to work with young children and to form
them and to learn all the rules and regulations. I mean,
you learn a lot out of sports, more than just
the actual game. So that was Robin Carry and his wife,
doctor Bess Potter. I mean we touched on it there too,
just days before her murder. She was working on COVID
nineteen research. I mean, she really cares about the community.
(13:20):
She was a prominent professor here at w Madison. And
another thing that friends were telling me to these people
were pillars of the community. They were a big deal
here and they really cared about the Madison area. You
know what, Sierra Gillespie, I'm sure you didn't maintay, but
you're really hurting me. I'll tell you why. Doctor Angela
Arnold is a renowned psychiatrist in the Atlanta jurisdiction. Doctor Angela,
(13:44):
I had to wrestle with this for the first time
as really a young girl when my fiance was Martyred.
Keith was like a ray of sunshine. Couldn't be more
good natured, smart, handsome. On baseball scholarship, I mean, you
(14:05):
couldn't ask for anyone sweeter or better heart than him.
And then he's murdered by somebody that worked on a
construction crew, got fired the week before Keith started his job.
And we always hear that question, doctor Angela, why do
bad things happened to good people? I still don't understand it.
(14:28):
I mean, I accept it, but I don't understand it,
doctor Angela. And this left this community struggling with these
two murders. Well, I don't think we're ever going to
completely understand it, Nancy. But if but if the tourers
were trying, and I don't know, but if the killers
were trying to make some sort of statement, then who
better to kill than the pillers of the society. That's
(14:50):
a heck of a statement. What statement? I've just got
to think, to Joe Scott Morgan, following up on what
doctor Angela Arnold just said, this is more than just
some statement. It's not about COVID nineteen, it's not about soccer.
So when you are presented, Joe Scott Morgan, with an
(15:11):
outdoor crime scene, that's a whole different animal than a
contained crime scene, such as in somebody's basement or their
garage or their car. When you've got two dead bodies
in a ditch, You've got a serious crime scene challenge.
Joseph Scott Morgan. Yeah, it's important. You've mentioned the word
(15:33):
ditch several times. That goes to my thought that there
was a potential attempt, at least superficially, to conceal what
had been done they're put into. They're referring to a ditch.
I don't know if it's actually a ditch as we
think about. It might be a depressed area, but my
suspicion is it's running along the side of one of
(15:54):
these walking trails. Now, from an evidentury standpoint, let's say,
for instance, they were walked out there. They were just
taken to that isolated location. Why so close to the road,
you know, why would you do it there? Or were
the individuals laying in wait for these individuals, say, for instance,
the people are persons that might have targeted them. And
(16:18):
that's another word that keeps coming up over and over
and over again. If they were waiting out there, we're
gonna have evidence, say, for instance, like footprints, because this
is a nature area. We're talking about soft kind of
malleable dirt, an arboretum, and for anybody that doesn't know
arboretum is like a botanical garden that's specifically devoted to trees.
(16:40):
That's my understanding of what an arboretum is. Go go ahead, Yeah,
And so the soil is going to be very kind
of loamy and soft and that sort of thing. And
if you have safe, for instance, a couple of people
or one person that's waiting behind a tree and an
area of concealment, if you can identify that area, you
can go and look and see if they're our footprints,
(17:01):
say that have been left behind or other items, Say
they were smoking a cigarette and they dropped it there
while they were waiting. How long had they been waiting there?
And why go to the trouble of placing these individuals,
these victims in a ditch. That those are two big
questions that come up with me, Bobby Chicone. Couldn't you
tell from the crime scene whether they had been killed
(17:22):
elsewhere and disposed of in the ditch or whether they
were killed in the ditch? And unlike in a contained
crime scene such as in a bedroom or in a
car or in the basement, you're not going to be
able to get, for instance, blood spatter versus blood drops,
which are a big difference evidentiary wise, it's going to
(17:43):
be a more difficult feat to figure out what exactly
happened when you're out in nature. The blood seeps into
the ground, it's harder to find, the wind blows, the
soil is disturbed. How can you tell if they were
killed there or they were deposited there. Well, you're exactly right, Nancy.
It will be more difficult, and it will be more
(18:03):
difficult depending on the weather and how long they were there. Um.
But there are some telltale signs that will um will
take place. Like you said, did they have their jogging
clothes on? Were they out there? You'll look at their clothes,
will examine their clothes, what they had on them. Um.
We will be able to tell hopefully where they came
from in the immediate preceding hours, again depending on how
(18:24):
long they were there and the weather that was was
existed while they were there. Um. But there are certain
things we will tell. You will not be able to
tell as much obviously as an indoor crime scene that
was static and that was preserved. Um. There are a
few things that are that are vital that you might
be able to tell and might be able to to
to um to determine and that is were they jogging, um?
(18:46):
Were they in a car recently? Were they you know,
were they outdoors you know, for for an extended period
of time. So there are things and all of those
pieces will be gathered as much as they can UM
and to build the story of what happened in the
seating hours you know, before their deaths. Prime stories with
(19:16):
Nancy Grace. Guys, how does a college professor doing COVID
nineteen research and her husband, soccer coach for years end
up executed in a ditch at an arboretum, a botanical garden.
Nobody saw anything, Nobody knows anything. Take a listen now
(19:37):
to our friends at wi SC Channel three, Madeline O'Neill
u W police tell me they have no update today
as they continue the search for a suspect or suspects
in the deaths of Beth Potter and Robin carry Here
at the arboretum, a double homicide they say was targeted.
People I spoke with today close to the two say
the husband and wife were amazing parents of three and
(20:01):
the loss of them was leaving a really big hole.
He was definitely missed when he wasn't here. Robin Carry
was always around at training four Warriors, the fitness program
referred to as a dojo in Middleton, something fellow Jim
Goers took to heart. He's always dollars, had something to say.
(20:21):
And then even though what was going on in the play,
always something and it was it was a dit to
be your argument. We have a swear jar and it's
a dollar for the word can't. And he would put
a dollar in safe because he didn't want to do
chin ups. That's a tiny peak into the psyches of
(20:43):
these two murder victims. They a lot of people have
a swear jar in their home. If you say an
ugly word, you have to put in a dollar. Their
swear word was can't. I can't And one of them
put in ten dollars ahead of time in case. He said.
We are trying to unravel the mystery of a college
(21:04):
professor and her husband found dead in a ditch, and
I think of my sister, who is a college professor,
a real brainiac, with her nose in a book, constantly
researching and writing and teaching classes. Who in the world
would want to gun down a college professor and her
(21:26):
soccer coach husband, who would do something like that. We
are left with trying to analyze the clues left in
a ditch, a ditch police being extremely close to the
vest in the case. But when you look at the
personalities of doctor Beth Potter and her husband, Robin Carey,
(21:47):
who in the world would have targeted them. Now, I'm
sure you all remember the case of Tara Grinstead, the
Beauty Queen high school teacher working on her master's degree
who goes missing and has never seen alive again after
a school barbecue. Years passed before the killer was traced
(22:10):
back to being wonderful student years before she was killed.
So too, doctor Angela Arnold, psychiatrists joining me from the
Atlanta area. Doctor Arnold, you never know in that case,
Tera Grinstead's killer was one of her students years before.
Now we have doctor Beth Potter, a professor there in Wisconsin.
(22:35):
I think the reason they're saying they're targeted, Doctor Angela Arnold,
is because there's no rape. There's no sex attack, and
apparently no robbery. So with no robbery and no rape,
no sex attack, what's the potential motive to kill somebody
out in the open and leave their bodies hidden in
a ditch. You never know who you're teaching, who you're
(22:56):
working with that may be murderous. Doctor Angela Arnold. It's
very scary, isn't it. And Nancy, one of the one
of the questions that's just going through my mind is
could this could this have been some sort of gang
related activity? Could this could this have been a gang initiation?
I find it really hard to believe, Bobby Chico, that
(23:19):
gangman members are hanging out at an arboretum, the botanical gardens. Yeah.
Having work gangs in New York City in the eighties,
I don't it doesn't seem to me like it would
be the type of gang initiations. When they do try
to initiate members by pulling off a violent crime, it's
usually a violent crime that's consistent with other activities of
the gang. It'll be a robbery or drug robbery or
(23:42):
something like that. On those lines. It will also be
a victim unfortunately that is benefits the gang to be killed.
It'll be a rival gang member, or it'll be a
store owner that hasn't paid extortion money or something like that.
It'll be something at least peripherbly related to the gang activities. Guys,
we are talking about the shocking murders of a college
(24:03):
professor fighting COVID nineteen through research and her husband both
found dead slang shot dead in a ditch, and then
a stunning turn in the case. Take a listen to
our friends at mass and PD. This is Chief Kristen Roman. Understandably,
(24:24):
a violent crime such as this creates significant concern and
fear throughout the community. To this, I offer that the
suspect is known to the family. We believe that this
was not a random act. It was calculated, cold blooded
and senseless, and we will continue to do all we
can to bring justice to Robin and Beth, their family,
(24:47):
and their loved ones. While this arrest is a significant development,
no criminal investigation ends at the point of an arrest.
This remains a very active police investiga and I encourage
anyone who may yet have information about this case to
contact us. A sudden and unexpected arrest goes down in
(25:09):
the case. But what do we know, Jackie. Let's go
to cut seven. This is NBC fifteen NIJE reporter. Our
friend joining us today, Sierra Gillespie, eighteen year old Cary Sandford.
What we do know? He was a senior here at
Madison West High School and personally knew Robin Carry and
(25:29):
doctor Beth Potter's family. It was calculated, cold blooded, and senseless.
Police say Sandford specifically targeted Carry and Potter. What we
don't know is why a jograph found the couple in
a ditch early Tuesday morning. Since that time, we have
worked tirelessly to investigate this heinous crime and find those responsible.
(25:51):
NBC fifteen has confirmed Sandford played football at Madison West
High School, where the couple's daughter, Mimi goes to school.
Court record show officers arrested Stanford last year on a
Class A misdemeanor account of auto theft. We will continue
to do all we can to bring justice to Robin
and Beth, their family, and their loved ones. Wow. Okay,
(26:14):
an unexpected arrest of a young man, a teen and
this is what we know to Sierra Gillespie special guests
joining us from WMTV NBC fifty Madison. So the killer
went to school with the victim's daughter, went to high
school with Mimi the daughter. Yeah, So what we know
(26:36):
is he went to Madison West High School and Mimi
is still a student there right now. We also know
that Robin Carry helped coach with the Madison West Soccer club,
so we know that they were both very involved with
the area, and this eighteen year old carry Sandford, had
to have known the family. We also do know from
his Facebook he was friends with Mimi, the daughter. They
(27:00):
had had a couple of comments back and forth together,
so we knew that they definitely had a relation together. Okay,
hold on, whoa, whoa, whoa, Sierra Gillespie. As this is unfolding,
the only connection we really see is that the alleged
trigger man, eighteen year old went to school with the
victim's daughter, Mimi. And I understand that the dad coached
(27:25):
some at that school, but he coached soccer and this guy,
the trigger man, was a football player, so that he
would not have coached him. So the connection is the
teen daughter Mimi. Right, That's exactly right. Let me understand,
you know, off, I guess Facebook comments back and forth
(27:47):
between Mimi and the alleged trigger man, what kind of comments.
So some of his Facebook is kind of blocked off,
but from what I found before it was deactivated, she
had commented on one of his posts bay like the
abbreviation for before anyone else, and it had a little
emoji with a heart, so we know that they clearly
(28:07):
were familiar with each other. Were they dating that We
don't know for sure as of yet, but I mean
I don't call my friends bay. Wow. This is a
wrinkle in the case no one expected and opens up
a host of possibilities. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace for
(28:42):
those of you just joining us, I Nancy Grace, this
is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here
at Fox Nation. As well as Serious XM one eleven.
The circumstances surrounding the death of a college profess us
or and her husband have been murky. They are beginning
(29:05):
to clear up, you know. To Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,
jacksonvill State, this was an illustration I almost always used
with juries. I started the case with a giant jar
(29:26):
of water, and it had silt at the bottom, and
as I began opening statements, I would shake it in
front of the jury and it would become muddy, set
it on my table and the case would start. At
(29:48):
the end of the case it would be clear again,
and as I argue the facts in closing statement, I
would hold it back up and say, see, it's not money. Anymore.
It's clear what happened. As we go through this case,
we are learning more and more. Joe Scott, what do
(30:12):
you make of these online exchanges between the trigger man
and the victim's daughter, Mimi, Not to suggest she's involved
in this in any way. Here's my thought, Nancy, if
if there is connectivity between these two and like you said,
this poor little girl who is now literally an orphan,
(30:36):
oh is not, you know, she's not. How old is
your son, Joe Scott, Well, he's just turned eighteen, Nancy,
I can't believe it. Mine just turned twelve. Can you
imagine then growing up without either parent as a young teen. Yeah,
it's hard to even comprehend that in this critical point
(30:59):
in their life, if an individual had developed an obsession over,
say this young girl, it could go to a motive.
I think one of the things we need to keep
in mind, Nancy, this is not some kind of a
passive event their desks. They've been charged with first degree homicide,
(31:21):
and you have the attack on two specific people. This
is a brutal killing, and so that goes to you
know why, you know, we keep talking about why the
world would somebody target these two individuals, Well, why would
you You know, it's like going in, you know and
pinching the heads off of roses. You know, why why
are you going to do that? To destroy something that's
(31:42):
so beautiful like this, You have to have a specific
motivation to just bring down this kind of wrath and
violence on two individuals that would end their life. So,
you know, one of the things we always look at
as investigators who is in that circle and who are
intimates in that environment? And this individual might have perceived
themselves as being an intimate. Guys, take a listen to
(32:05):
our friend Francisco Almanara wk ABC twenty seven years reporter
now with eighteen year old Elijah LaRue and custody in
connection with the murder. UW police are now confirming that
the couple had in fact been shot or to a
point where we can confidently start releasing some more information
to help our community better understand what happened, and that's
(32:28):
what we were able to do today. Mark Love Account
with the UWPD says they can't say what the victims
were doing in the arboretum that morning, but he did
say that is where they were shot and killed. He says,
investigating the department's first ever double homicide during the pandemic.
Has posed many challenges, but they're making progress. It's been
(32:50):
fantastic police work in a really, really tough time, and
our folks are tired, but they're doing really well and
it's it's been a remarkable week. The bodies of this
professor and her husband found in a ditch by a
jogger six thirty am. And remember, as Joe Scott Morgan
(33:11):
ported out, the professor, doctor Beth Potter, was still alive
at some level at that time, so that the shootings
could not have been much before six thirty am. It
was in the u W Arboretum. It's a research, popular
recreational area with over a thousand acres of forest and prairie.
(33:35):
Arboretum is a botanical garden devoted specifically to trees in
their natural state. Why it is some sort of motive
beginning to arise to Sierra Gillespie joining us WMTV, NBC
fifteen Madison, Sierra. Now there is a second perp. Who's
(33:56):
the second purp? So we know that the second person
arrested in this case is eighteen year old Elijah LaRue,
and we also know that he went to not u
W Madison, actually Madison West High School, I should say
so yesterday I was working to do a little bit
more digging about this eighteen year old and I reached
out to Mark Levicott, the police officer. We actually just
(34:18):
heard from him, and he told me all we can
say is there were acquaintances. But I mean, for somebody
who's going to commit a brutal crime like this, officers
are calling it senseless, cold blooded, heinous. I mean, they
have to be more than acquaintances, you know. I'm trying
to get into the psyche of what would make you
commit such a crime. To doctor Angela Arnold helped me out.
(34:42):
We know that one of the teams, eighteen years old,
treated as an adult under the law, knew their daughter,
who's still in high school. This means he's, you know,
at least a couple of years older than her. That's
the only real connection we've got but a into Sierra Gillespie.
The two had exchanged at least exchanged emails online. But
(35:05):
to shoot the parents dead, well, I know, and in
such a calculatd wies it so early in the morning.
I mean, I've got so many questions in my head
about this. Did he perceive that the parents were somehow
standing in his way of going out with their daughter.
I don't know. I think there's so much that's going
(35:25):
to be found out about this, don't you say? I agree,
Troy Slayton, I once had a murder over ten dollars.
Ten dollars a murder over ten dollars, So it could
be a perceived slight. It could be any number of things.
And of course, Troy Slayton, you're the defense attorney. The
state doesn't have to prove motive. But reasonably speaking, when
(35:49):
you're arguing something to a jury, if you don't present
a motive, you've got a problem in your case. And
Joseph Scott Morgan pointed it out that motive here is
not clear. Why would two young boys murder these two
pillars of the community. Something's not making sense, something doesn't
(36:09):
smell good. And just because a young girl is calling
somebody bay. Look, my twelve year old daughter writes to
her friends online all the time and calls everybody bay.
So that doesn't mean anything. And I think that police
saying that this is targeted, although it is senseless and tragic,
(36:29):
we don't know that these people were targeted. Six boys.
You think two teas are in the arboretum at six
thirty in the morning with guns. They don't rape, they
don't steal, and they shoot these two and oh yeah,
they happen to know their daughter, their high school age daughter.
That's targeted, Troy. How can that not be anything but targeted?
(36:53):
Something's not making sense. Yeah, you you're not making sense.
Claim this is not targeted. Oh I think I just
gotten mulling in the background or is that Bobby Bobby? Well,
you know, it may not seem to make sense, but
it certainly makes sense to the police and prosecutors. The
prosecutor has charged them with first degree murder. And this
was lightning investigative work. That the victims were found Tuesday morning.
(37:14):
The first arrest was Thursday night, the second arrest was
Saturday morning. Um so, and and they've come out with,
you know, phrases like targeted. So they obviously know a
lot more than we know. So it may not make
sense to us, but it looks like it makes perfect
sense to the police and the prosecutors in this case.
Prosecutors are very hesitant to file serious charges like this
(37:35):
this quickly unless they have some pretty damning evidence. In
their possession time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, I'm hearing
(37:58):
in my ear. We have an update on the case,
straight out to Dave Mattcrime online dot Com investigative reporter
Dave what happened and to what we're finding out is
that the suspect, Caldy Sandford, actually had been living with
the victims and had been dating their adopted daughter, Miriam,
(38:24):
in a relationship they've been going on for a long time.
Two weeks before this shooting occurred, they were that Potter
moved her daughter and Sanford out of the house because
they refused to distance themselves socially. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait,
(38:45):
so you're telling me doctor Potter moved her daughter, Mimi,
Miriam and her I guess they'd been letting Carrie Sandford,
now charged in their murders, eighteen year old football star
Carrie Sandford, who goes to high school with the daughter Mimi,
the adopted daughter Mimi. They're letting him live in the
(39:07):
home with Mimi. And it's my understanding that the doctor,
doctor Beth Potter, had some immune issue and she could
not be close to people. It's my understanding, day Mac,
she felt that her daughter Mimi and her living teen lover.
(39:29):
We're not respecting her and we're not keeping the social
distance in the time of COVID nineteen. So she moves
them into an airbnb. She doesn't throw them out on
the street. She moves them into an apartment airbnb not
far from home. Is that right, Dave mac Absolutely correct, Nancy.
And according to one of the individuals that Beth Potter
(39:52):
worked with at the University lg is how she's labeled
in the documents that a conversation and that said that
her daughter Miriam, that they wouldn't social distance. They stayed
in the room all day her in Sanford, ordering food,
but then they would leave the house and go out
and just ramble around and then come back home. And
we're just being totally disrespectful of the rules that him
(40:13):
and laid down because of as you mentioned, Beth Potter,
doctor Potter's immune system is also we know that her husband,
the husband Robin, had self quarantined so he would not
hurt his wife, so he would not expose her to
COVID nineteen potentially. And then the daughter Mimi allegedly just
(40:36):
stays hold up in her bedroom all day where their
football star boyfriend ordering takeout and watching TV and whatever
else they're doing alone in the bedroom. So she finally
gets tired of them breathing all over her, not respecting
the rules, and then shells out for them to be
in an airbnb. She pays for their place. What can
(40:57):
you tell me, Dave Mack about stations alleged conversations coming
to light about how the daughter, Mimi, was bragging that
her parents were rich and they had a lot of bands,
which is thousands of dollars. Well, early in the month
of March, a friend of there before school was suspended,
a friend overheard Miriam and Sandford talking about the need
(41:20):
for money, and Miriam flat I said, hey, my folks
are rich. They got bands, referring to the thousands of cash.
And this was over her bragging about the money they had.
And at the time, Sandford had just moved in with
Miriam and her folks, So this is a couple of
weeks before they were forced to move out, so they
were living together in this very wealthy situation. Yeah, thanks
(41:42):
to the mother and the father's hard work working their
fingers to the bone. We are also learning right now.
According to an unnamed source, a detective stating that I
almost hate to say it. The husband, Robin, was face
down with the wound to his head, wearing only his underwear.
(42:04):
There were several three fifty seven cig shellcasings in the
area around the male victim. The female victim had been
located blood spatter and pooling, indicating the victims haven't shot
there at the arboretum. But she had on her pj's
and socks. He had on underwear. So it sounds to
(42:25):
me that these two teens, one the teen lover of
the dead couple's daughter, had forced them out of their home.
I guess while they were sleeping, because I remember the
six thirty in the morning. I'm also learning and correct
me if I'm wrong, Dave, because there's a lot of
information coming out right now that JAG not only found them,
(42:48):
but they heard some shots after six am in the morning,
then the bodies were found. Is that right? Not exactly, Nancy.
What we've been told is that they have tracked the
cell phone of one of these suspects near the home
(43:08):
of Beth Potter on the night on the thirtieth. Okay, now,
at about eleven o'clock eleven o two, an ear witness
around the arboretum heard two gunshots at eleven oh two,
and then four more four to five more gunshots coming
immediately after that, a total of six or seven shots
(43:31):
fired a little after eleven o'clock. Thank you. So the
shots were at eleven o'clock the night before. They must
have aroused to them out of bed. She's got on
her pj's, he has on underwear, and then the bodies
are found. Thank you. That's very significant, very significant, your correction,
Dave Mack, because the shootings were we think that night
(43:55):
around eleven. Isn't it true that the boyfriend and his buddy,
one of them show up at a friend's house excited
and agitated and upset in very concern that the wife,
the mom, had been rushed to the hospital and was
still alive. Absolutely, Nancy. The word that we've gotten is
(44:18):
that when they were agitated and excited, and then finding
out in the news that doctor Beth Potter had said,
of course they weren't named at the time, but that
the woman had survived the initial shooting, Sanford apparently was
heard saying, I know I shot him, you know, I
know I took them, and you know there were two
(44:39):
shots in Beth catter one in Robin to the just
above the ear on the left side of his head.
She was shot in the head and in the arm,
and she was when they discovered her, she was about
thirty degrees. He say, she was wearing pajamas and somebody
was down to thirty degrees. Yes, correct. And about Mimi Miriam,
(45:03):
the daughter Nancy, this is the part that bothers me.
She hasn't in charge yet, but you know, she actually
alibied Sanford. She said told the police that they were
at their airbnb the entire night of the thirtieth and
the thirty version that they did not leave, didn't she
text somebody about she was, you know, two rooms over
(45:24):
from them, and they had gotten back. We know that
she was texting Sandford when she told the police that
they were together at that airbnb, you know, and she
claimed that they had the text messages back and forth
where you know, she was trying to find out what
was going on. And you know, police are like, well,
if you guys are vote here together at the same time,
(45:44):
why are you texting him? You know, So we know
that she's texting him while this is going on, while
she claims they're in that Airbnb together. We understand that
after the two Sandford and LaRue had come back to
the apartment where the daughter Miriam known as Mimi, was,
she texted and unidentified friends saying, quote, I want to cry,
(46:09):
but I'm also in an apartment with them and it's
literally two and a half rooms, so that's fun. But
they come back. So we know that she alibied him
knowing that he was gone. We know that much right now.
As of right now, the daughter Miriam has not been charged.
(46:32):
We wait as justice unfools. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing
off goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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