New Englanders remain on edge as reports of a possible serial killer on the loose provoke fear and rumors on social media. Since early March, the bodies of eight people — mostly women turn up in Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island. Authorities can only identify half of the victims. All 8 victims bodies are in various stages of decomposition.
Law enforcement across all three states continue to refute that the series of remains do not connect to a serial killer. Especially after police arrest a man on accusations he murders a woman whose body is found in a suitcase near a cemetery in Groton, Connecticut. Police imply the arrest dispels rumors about a serial killer in the area.
Joining Nancy Grace today,
- Jason Oshins - New York Defense Attorney
- Caryn Stark - Forensic Psychologist, renowned TV and Radio trauma expert and consultant, www.carynstark.com, Instagram: carynpsych, FB: Caryn Stark Private Practice
- Brian Fitzgibbons - Director of Operations for USPA Nationwide Security, website: www.uspasecurity.com, Instagram: @uspa_nationwide_security
- Dr. Kendall Crowns - Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), NEW Podcast: "Mayhem in the Morgue" launching soon, Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University)
- Jane Boroski - lone survivor of the Connecticut River Valley Serial Killer, Host of the podcast “Invisible Tears,” website: invisible-tears.com, Instagram and YouTube: @invisibletearspodcast
- Germania Rodriguez - Germania Rodriguez, Chief US Reporter, DailyMail.com and host of Welcome to MAGAland podcast
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Is there a New England serial killer? In the last
days grim discoveries fueling serial killer fears, the body count
rising eight bodies found in New England within just weeks.
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
thank you for.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Darre in New England. As towns across Connecticut, Rhode Island,
and Massachusetts are rocked by the gruesome discovery of several
sets of remains in various stages of decomposition, residents fear
a serial killer is on the loose living amongst them.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Joining us an all star panel, but straight out to
the scenes. Standing by Brian Fitzgibbons, Director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security,
leading a team of investigator specializing and locating missing people
at USPA Security dot Com. Brian, thank you for being
with us. Explain where you are in a significance.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
I'm right now in Plymouth, Massachusetts, just adjacent to a
patch of woods where just about a month ago, a
human skull was discovered by a hunter who was walking
a couple of deer paths looking for antlers. Less than
three weeks ago, Massachusetts State Police and the Plymouth Police
(01:26):
searched the woods after the skull was found. Notably, just
the skull was found. Police have not identified the skull
or any other remains in the area right now.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Well, rav Is Gibbons, curious, You and I have investigated
and covered, and I prosecuted a lot of cases where
only portions of the body were found here the skull now.
Very often, when there is a densely area like where
(02:01):
you are right now in Plymouth, animal activity, in other words,
animals tearing apart the body will be responsible for a
certain amount of disbursement. But Bravus Gibbons, if the disbursement
was due to animal activity, you would expect to find
(02:22):
other bones, maybe not all of them, maybe never all
of them, but some of them within dragging distance. You
would find a femur, a tibia, that something, an arm
leg bone nearby within thirty forty yards where the animal
has dragged it off to eat it.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
So this tells me maybe.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Human hands were involved in disposing of this body.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Brian, Absolutely, Nancy, And to paint a better picture for
the audience, this patch of woods is relatively small. It's
contained by a major highway and a couple of large
residential neighborhoods, So access to this patch of woods is
very limited. There's really only one secluded access point to it.
(03:13):
The terrain is very difficult, so when you look at
the map, it's up and downhill. It's not in there
full of briers as you can see on the screen
right now. So carrying a body into this area unseen
would be very difficult.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Okay, you just said something very very important, Bryan fitzgib
is Brian on the Saine near Plymouth. That means to
me that someone that knew the area or had regular
access to it is responsible for putting the skull there,
if not the rest of the body. Why Because it is,
as you said, cornered on all sides residential highway.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Okay, what were you saying?
Speaker 4 (03:55):
You're exactly right, Nancy. You would have to know where
this access point. It's by the underpass on Root three.
That's the one spot that you can get into the
woods without having to go through a neighborhood that has
seven hundred thousand dollars homes ring cameras everywhere. You know,
it would be very difficult to get in there unseen.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Hold on, hold on, it's Gibbons. You just said it
borders on Route three. There's an overpass. What is Root three?
Is it heavily traveled? Does it go from where to where?
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Rout three? In that photo that went viral of the
state police doing the search, Rout three is a main
thoroughfare between Boston and Cape Cod, so it's very heavily
traveled all hours of the day. That's the main highway
going through Plymouth.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Well, okay, Brevi, it's Gibbons. You just opened up the
pool of suspects. I mean it's like a volcano. What
just speed out of your mouth.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Ruth three guys. From Boston to Cape Cod.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
It's very heavily traveled, which means anybody driving by can
look down and see that patch of woods and think, wow,
that's a great spot to hide a body.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Very very similar to the case of.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Shasta and Dylan Gronie where a truck driver drove by
in Crudelane. If you saw the aeriel Brian it's all green, okay,
so very rural.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
And he happens to see at a distance Shasta.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
On an above ground pool. He lies and waits, kills
the whole family and takes the two children. That's what
happens the purpose sees something and suddenly they get an
evil plan hatched in their head. Guys, tonight, fears of
the New England serial killer as he and it's typically
(05:49):
a man is called, have been sparked eight bodies found
in recent weeks.
Speaker 5 (05:55):
Listen, the public is terrified there's a serial killer on
the loose in New England. In just two months, eight
sets of remains have been discovered in Connecticut, Rhode Island
and Massachusetts. Only half of those victims have been identified.
All of the bodies are in various stages of decomposition.
One woman only deceased a few hours, while another discovery
(06:17):
only included a jawless human skull.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Okay, Brian has gibbons.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
That's the skull to which you are referring, the jawless
human skull. And we're just showing video of that neighborhood.
Let's see that again. You don't usually find a human
skull behind a million dollar house. Okay, so this is
what we're talking about. Brian, back to you, this is significant.
(06:45):
Rarely and a neighborhood like this, do you find a
dismembered body in your backyard?
Speaker 6 (06:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:51):
So that woods is direct maybe one hundred and fifty
two hundred yards behind these houses that you're seeing here,
and then it butts on the other side of the
woods that major Route three. Okay, so that's what you're
dealing with now. When I searched the area yesterday and today,
there were a few campsites that looked like abandoned maybe
(07:14):
homeless campsites or small party sites that teenagers had been at.
There's also a bike path that clearly had been ridden,
maybe by local area teams or kids, so that that
patch of woods is accessible. The terrain is difficult, but
there has been some traffic through there.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
You know, there's another issues. I'm looking at that interstate footage.
Jason osen is joining me veteran trial lawyer joining us
out of New York, but also practices in these jurisdictions. Jason,
if I mean you and I both taken the Peter
Pan bus from New York to Boston back and forth,
or the train, So if someone's driving along, I'm trying
(07:57):
to get my head around where this particular body, one.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Of eight was disposed.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
When you're driving along, you can't just park on the
interstate that you and I have traveled many many times,
get out of your car, and drag a big plastic
trash bag out to the woods. You have to look
at a place where you can access it off the
road and hide it without being caught, or go there
by foot. And that is what is interesting about what
(08:24):
Fits Gibbons is saying. So somebody didn't just they may
have seen it from the interstate the spot to hide
a body, but they did not go to the spot
leaving the interstate on foot. You have to get out
and go around and possibly even part in this neighborhood.
But I guarantee you one of these millionaires didn't throw
a dead body or a skull practically in their own backyard.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
That did not happen.
Speaker 7 (08:47):
Now, when it seems why description limited as to the
type of animals that would be able to access across
the road and grab that. So you know, the theory
that it was done by human hands is quite plausible.
And as you point out, someone must have surveyed this
land because of its inaccessibility, because of the houses as
(09:09):
we've seen, bordered and the highway. So someone took the
time to purposely decide that this was a location for
a depositing.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
That's called you're right, You're right. Oceans guys.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Eight bodies discovered in the same region in a matter
of weeks. Let's just start with thirty five year old
Page Fannin.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Page Fannin thirty five, is reported missing March fourth, after
failing to open her West Islip Long Island hair salon
and not returning calls from family members. The next day,
police get a tip that Page may have been seen
in Wilton, Connecticut, near Schneck's Island. March six, Wilton PD
teams up with Norwalk PD to search the area with drones.
An officer spots closed on the bank of the Norwalk River.
(09:51):
Family members confirmed the items belonged to Page.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
And then Page's body found despite fast moving water from
heavy rainfalls.
Speaker 8 (09:59):
Police and fire person now search along the banks of
the Norfolk River, while a dive team searches the water
at Main Avenue and Gristmill Road. The scuba team discovers
human remains. They belonged to Paige fan and reported missing
two days earlier. Law enforcement has not released Page's cause
of death.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
In addition to Brian Fitzgibbons joining us from the saying
their employment and veteran trial lawyer Jason Ocean is joining
me now. Harmonia Rodriguez chfus reporter with dailymail dot Com, Harmonia,
thank you for being with us. Also host of Welcome
to Magalan podcast Harmonia. The skull to which fitz Gibbons
is referring it was green in color?
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Is that correct?
Speaker 9 (10:40):
That's right and clearly, as you said, all of these
remains were being found in the same area and there
seems to be details that tie them. But one of
the strange things, it's all the composition levels were different.
Page that we just mentioned. Her body had only gone
missing a few days prior to it being found, so
she was not as decompose some of the other remains
(11:02):
that police have found. As you mentioned, this skull was
beyond any point of recognition.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Green in color.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Joining me now or a now expert Doctor Kendall Crown's
chief medical Examiner, Arrett County.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
That'sport Worth and.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Has just launched a brand new podcast, Mayhem and the Morgue.
A stame lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU,
Doctor Keindl Crowns, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
What does that tell you that the skull was green
in color?
Speaker 6 (11:32):
It can be a number of things that could be.
It's been out in those woods long enough that moss
or mold is starting to grow on it, which will
discolor the skull. Also, the dirt composition in the area,
if it has a high copper content, can cause a
green discoloration as well. And then finally, it could be
something associated with the individual's death or chemical being used
(11:59):
to try and bleach the skull or get flesh off
the skull, or something along those lines.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
It's okay, well you're telling me something and I've never
heard before. Stop right there, Dodtor Crowns, people actually bleach
a skull.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
What did you just say?
Speaker 6 (12:16):
Well, so, what I was saying was they may have
tried to use chemicals to try and get rid of
the tissue off the the skull. I miss misspoke by
saying bleach, but by using the chemicals it could have
discolored the bones in a way.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Okay, you know, doctor Kendall Crowns, every time I talk
to you, I learned something completely neat. So a skull
can be discolored, possibly turning green, if the killer has
tried to remove all the flesh so as to hide
the identity of the victim. And that okay, so the
(12:49):
skull could be discolored because of that. A possibility is
I'm going to circle back to the age of the skull,
but we've got seven more victims to add.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
That's in Plymouth, what about Greton?
Speaker 10 (13:04):
With a very vague call where it was that determine
where the item was at and during the initial investigation
home we located human.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Remains Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 10 (13:26):
A groutin Connecticut. Resident visiting a loved one at the
Colonel Ludyard Cemetery calls police to report a suspicious item
just outside the cemetery entrance. Responding officers make a grizzly
discovery a woman's remains in a suitcase. Police save a
woman has lightly pigmented skin and may suffer from Turner syndrome,
which causes a very wide neck and broad chest, among
(13:49):
several other physical differences. Investigators believe her remains were dumped
there in mid February.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Now, I don't want to be misleading in any way.
I do not believe that they so military victim is
connected to all the other bodies, and this is why the.
Speaker 11 (14:04):
Victim is identified as Suzanne Wormser, aged fifty eight, who's
a resident of the city of Grotton, The suspect is
identified as Donald Koffel, aged sixty eight, who's also a
resident of the city of Grotton. The suspect was interviewed
for a third time and at that time confessed to
the murder, providing details that matched the scene documentation as
(14:29):
well as evidence collected by the investigators today. The suspect
was arrested and transferred to the state of Department corrections.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
That still leaves me seven dead bodies and counting.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Page Fanning is a thirty five year old hairdresser from
West Islip, New York. All seems well until the young
woman is reported missing after failing to return calls from
concerned family members. An intense investigation leads authorities to the
bank of the Norwalk River, where pages closed and remains
are av located. That same day, just one state away,
(15:03):
a weathered skull with a missing jaw is discovered in Massachusetts.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Page fan of one of eight dead people their bodies
turning up scattered across the same region.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Eight bodies.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I think we can exclude one of them from any
suggestion that a serial killer was involved. That leaves me
with seven dead bodies, connected or not. Now, this is
what authorities want us to believe.
Speaker 12 (15:28):
Listen, there have been many rumors and unsassociated fear mongering
taking place in the social media, making the city and
surrounding communities seem like unsafe places to live. I am
here to assure you that the city of Grindon is
among the safest communities in the Northeast.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Okay, the same exact thing was said about so many
serial killers telling people you're safe, You're fine. There's no
such thing as a serial killer walking amongst us. What
does the name Portland serial killer ring a bell.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
They're aware that there seems to be some similarities there,
but it's too soon for them to say that there's
anything directly linked between These.
Speaker 13 (16:09):
Rumors of a serial killer in Portland, Oregon begin with
twenty two year old Kristen Smith's remains in February. Six
weeks later, Joanna Speaks is found on an abandoned property dead.
Weeks later, Charity Lynn Perry and an unidentified woman are
found dead. The same day, thirty one year old Bridget
Webster is discovered on a rural road, and just one
(16:30):
week later, twenty two year old Ashley Reel is found
dead in a heavily wooded area.
Speaker 14 (16:35):
A grand jury has indicted Jesse Calhoun on murder and
abuse of a corpse charges in connection to the death
of Charity Perry Bridget Webster and Joanna speaks that.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
From our friends a ko I N six authorities reiterated
over and over, it was like a mantra second verse,
same as the first. There's not a serial killer, there's
not a serial killer. There was a serial killer. And
then with egg on their face, they say this.
Speaker 15 (17:04):
We recognize that until today there have been many questions
and that their desks have caused fear and anxiety across
our area and for the families who have been waiting
for answers.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Now from our fans at KPTV Fox twelve, back to
Brian Fitzgibbons joining us on the same Plymouth mass I
want to circle back to the significance of the skull
missing a jawbone being weathered. We believe till it was
green in color. The likelihood is that that was from
(17:37):
age out in the woods, and it may not take
that long. It could be weeks, it could be months.
I don't necessarily believe it has to be years, depending
on the weather, but that said that significant. Brian Fitzgibbons,
because if these end up being connected, that shows the
sk serial killer has been working at work in this area,
(18:00):
this region for some time.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Absolutely. Nancy and Massachusetts State Police have released very limited information,
but that was one of the points that they did release,
that this skull had been there for quite some time now.
That has caused some concern of two local families of
missing women, Sandra Crispo, missing since twenty nineteen, and Brittany McCormick,
(18:24):
who's been missing since the summer of twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Back to doctor Kendall Crown's joining US Chief Medical Examiner
Terren County, star of a brand new hit podcast, Mayhem
in the Morgue, a couple of quick questions, Doctor Kendall Crowns, again,
thank you for being with us. How do you look
at a skull and determine if it's male or female? Specifically, now,
(18:46):
we don't have a jawbone.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
If you don't have a jawbone, can you have the
upper teeth?
Speaker 6 (18:52):
Yes, The upper teeth are part of the maxilla which
is attached to the skull, so you will still see
the upper teeth stayed in place. Because when the guns
disappear often the teeth will also fall out as well.
One of the things that anthropologists will look at for
variating in males and females. There is a little subtle
(19:13):
shapes and changes to the skull bones that the anthropologists
can use to figure out if it's a female or
a male. What subtle differences There can be some changes,
and particularly the eye sockets can look a little different
from males to females, and then the overall structure and shape.
Often the male's skulls will be larger, but occasionally do
(19:34):
get these smaller males that can look like female skulls
as well.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
And I believe there are differences in the size of
the forehead. Can you, based on the teeth determine the
age of the victim if we have if there are
teeth left, Doctor Kendall Crowns.
Speaker 6 (19:51):
Yes, you can tell age on an individual bite based
on teeth because with children, of course, the teeth aren't
all erupted, and so the teeth I'm in a varying
time throughout your life, so you can get an idea
up to when your wisdom teeth come out of age range.
But once the wisdom teeth are out, it is difficult
to age someone based on teeth, although you can look
(20:12):
at how the wear patterns and things like that and
get an idea that they are older.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
And of course you can possibly even make an id
through dental records. But the problem with that is, Brian Fitzgibbons,
you've got to have somebody to compare it too. Just
for instance, if I were to find your skull okay
out in the woods behind you there near Plymouth, mass
and I suspect it's you, and I don't have any
(20:39):
tissue left, I can't get any DNA. If I think
it's you, I can compare the teeth to your dental records,
because nobody else is going to show that you had
braces not once but twice, that you had one wisdom
tooth removed, but not the others, that you had a
cavity here, here, and here. No body else is going
(21:00):
to have the same pattern dental or orthodontia work.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
That you do.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
The odds are millions to one, that's one way. But
you got to have something to compare the unknown teeth too,
and here we got nothing.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Brian, I think you're right.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
At this point, we haven't heard that any teeth have
been located and I can tell you, Nancy, the number
of state police and local police vehicles and agents that
were in that woods was high. It's a very dense
forest with thick underbrush, so it would have been very
hard to locate any teeth that it may have fallen
(21:41):
out of that skull.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
What about the possibility, doctor Kendle Crowns, of getting DNA.
Speaker 6 (21:45):
Yes, you can get DNA from the skull, especially if
the teeth are still there, because the teeth are actually
something will removed to get DNA from the pulp structure
in the teeth have a nice amount of kind of
blood bloody pulp that we can use for doing DNA from.
So there's teeth.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
What if we don't have teeth, Kendle, it.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
Becomes a little more difficult. If there isn't any bone
marrow left in that skull, it it's almost impossible to
get DNA from it. But if there's a two you
can definitely do DNA tested.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Next question, Doctor Kendall Crowns, how long does it take
for the bone marrow to dissipate or disappear?
Speaker 6 (22:19):
It depends on the temperature outside, how long they've been
out there, the weather conditions, the heat all that can
dry up the bone marrow quite quickly. But again, if
there's anything left, you can get DNA from it. But
I would say once you get into weeks or months,
(22:39):
it'd be days versus weeks in the summer months, in
the fall and winter.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
A series of bone chilling discoveries in New England continues
when Suzanne Wormser's remains are found stuffed in a suitcase
in a Connecticut cemetery. This at the heels of two
other sets of remains located earlier in the month across
Massachusetts and Connecticut. But it doesn't stop there. Just a
day later, Connecticut Mom Denny's Leary's remains are found in
New Haven.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Is a serial killer stalking in the New England region?
So far, all we hear is no, no, no no
from authorities, But that's what authorities always say when they
are confronted with evidence that there is a serial killer.
Eight bodies turning up within weeks, I believe killed over
(23:26):
a period of time. One of those murders has been solved,
so we're.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Subtracting that out.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
We still have seven bodies and County joining me right
now is a very special guest joining us. Jane Barowski
at seven months pregnant.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Let that sink in. She was stabbed twenty seven times.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
She is the lone survivor of the Connecticut River Valley
serial killer and host of podcast Invisible Tier.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Jane, thank you so much for being with us. Oh,
thank you Nancy for having me. Ms Barrowsky.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
When you heard the news that a serial killer could
be stalking New England again, what went through your mind?
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I was.
Speaker 16 (24:17):
I was quite frustrated when I was listening to law
enforcement talk talk about all these cases, saying they're not suspicious,
they don't believe there's a serial killer, and that that
that really concerned me because, as far as I'm concerned,
(24:38):
if they don't be honest, then people put their guard
down and just disregard all this. So to me, I
wanted to start talking about it more so that people
could start being more aware of their surroundings.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
And we're showing a sketch right now now, Jane.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Hold on, Jane, I'm sorry to interrupt, but we're suddenly
showing a sketch of the Connecticut River Valley serial killer.
Speaker 16 (25:07):
That sketch right there is the composite that I did
of the person that or the monster that attacked me.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Jane, Why are you so concerned about what LA law
enforcement is saying now about the possibility of the New
England serial killer?
Speaker 16 (25:22):
Because I think that they should be letting people know
that they need to be more vigilant about what they're
doing on a day to day basis. They need to,
you know, start thinking about their safety and be more
aware of their surroundings and you know the buddy system and.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
You know, carry protection.
Speaker 16 (25:46):
They say that all these cases are not suspicious, but
they're not actually telling anybody what the manner of death
is like if it's.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
A suicide, Oh my goodness, Jane, to know, Jane, that's
what I've got written in big letters with a magic marker.
If you don't even know the cod cause of death
with these seven remaining that we know of seven dead bodies.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Then how can you say they're not connected?
Speaker 2 (26:17):
I mean, I agree with you, that is unfounded and
that's suspicious.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
That's very suspicious.
Speaker 16 (26:24):
Like if you can't share that or you don't know
I mean some of these bodies or remains, they've already
said that it's not suspicious before they even sent them
out to be examined. How can they even determine.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
That it's frustrating problem, don't move. Jane Browski. Another problem
to Brian Fitzgibbons joining us at the sea where one
of the sets of remains were found.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Brian usp a nationwide.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Security leading a team of investigators finding missing people and
helping to solve unsolved homicides.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Brian the prompt one of the mini problems.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Here is and this is not peculiar to New England,
this is everywhere. This is why Bundy took so long
to solve, and israel Keys took so long to solve,
and so many others took so long to solve. You
basically have to take out an ad on Third Avenue.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
I did it.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
I'm the serial killer because the law enforcement aren't stupid,
They're not dumb. Is that jurisdictions are not in the
same system. You could have two dead bodies with different
inmos of disposal in let's just say Massachusetts, and then
another dead body in Connecticut with a different method of disposal,
(27:44):
and on and on and nobody. It's not that they
hate each other or they're intentionally ignoring each other. It's
they don't have the ability the structural possibilities of that
being in the same database. What I mean, they're not
talking to each other about these dead bodies.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
Certainly, Nancy. And that's where you know, law enforcement would
consider and should consider the creation of a task force
where there's one of these, where these agenceencies can openly
collaborate and communicate on evidence, the victimology of the victims
that have been found here and in any new data
(28:25):
that comes up along their investigations.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Joining us from New Hampshire, Jamee Browski, the lone survivor,
the only one that we know survive the Connecticut River
Valley serial killer. I don't blame them Ellie for not
knowing what's going on, for instance, and Bundy, how would
somebody that's uh And I had a fellow prosecutor that
was one of the first cops on the scene at
(28:48):
the cay Omega massacre, and he was a rookie. He
said he told one day that he said something like,
stay calm, your friends have been brutally murdered upstairs, and
of course they all started screaming. He was a rookie
that was sent to the scene. So you know, why
would law enforcement answering that call investigating that case? Thing hey,
(29:13):
I should look at Colorado murders. They shouldn't. It is
not in the same database. So Bundy went on a
nationwide spree. And I submit, there are still unsolved murders
of Bundy's victims. But what I do blame them with,
along with Jane Barowski, who live to tell the tale,
(29:33):
is telling people don't look at the man behind the curtain,
don't look over here, look over here. There's not a
serial killer. But they won't say why Jane exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
I agree with you, Nancy. It's frustrating.
Speaker 16 (29:48):
You know, I get that there's different states involved and
all that, but I mean, come on, let's be honest.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
This is suspicious.
Speaker 16 (29:59):
And I don't see a reason why they can't elaborate
that that these cases are suspicious. They don't know if
any of them are connected. There could be a possibility.
They don't know, But I mean, they need to be
more honest with the public. You know, they don't want
to raise red flags and they don't want to raise
fear and all that. But with them saying nothing that
(30:23):
raises fear, that's suspicious.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
What happened in your case, Jane?
Speaker 16 (30:29):
With me, I had left a fair I lived in
a very small community in New Hampshire, and I left
a fair and I was driving home that night. This
was in a very small town that in nineteen eighty
eight virtually had no major crime. And I stopped at
(30:53):
a closed door to get a soda out of a
soda machine, and Munster came and parked next to me,
and he got out and came over to my car
and tried to get me out of my car and
get me to go with him. I fought, I refused
to go with him, and as I was trying to
(31:17):
get away from him, he ultimately tackled me down and
stabbed me twenty seven times.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Tell me about drawing this sketch of him, Well, I
was in ICU.
Speaker 16 (31:31):
This was drawn approximately two or three days after my attack.
I was in ICU. I was on an incubator. I
had two collapse lungs. He sliced my juggler, he sliced
my tenin in my thumb, sliced the ten in in
(31:52):
my knee. And the detectives came in with this box
of slides. Different eyes, different faces, face shapes, different mouths,
different noses, different hair, And so they showed me a slide,
and that whole composite was done by me blinking once
(32:14):
for yes and two for no, and that's how that
composite was created. I wish that they had set me
up with an artist after I got out of the
hospital so I could have had a more detailed sketch
of him, but unfortunately they never did that. So that's
(32:35):
the only composite that we have out there.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Crime stores with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
The on identified Connecticut River Valley serial killer is responsible
for the murders of seven young women, all within the
Connecticut River Valley region of New England. And he is
still walking free, still unsolved. And you said your daughter
(33:18):
is a miracle. Why did you say that.
Speaker 16 (33:20):
I was seven months pregnant, ear, and you know she survived.
I ended up carrying her for another two months after
my attack and she survives.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
So she is a miracle.
Speaker 16 (33:31):
I believe that it's because of her that I survived.
Because she wanted to survive and live, it gave me
the strength to survive.
Speaker 5 (33:40):
Residents of Rock Creek Road in New Haven, Connecticut, are
spending time cleaning up their gardens as spring arrives. When
one homeowner makes a grizzly discovery as the homeowner clears
dead overgrowth from their fence line. They discover human remains
and call nine one one. Investigators say the remains are
in an advanced state of decomposition. Four days later, the
(34:03):
Chief Medical Examiner says the remains belonged to Denise Leary,
reported missing nearly six months ago. Leary's cause of death
is undetermined.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Social media can speculate. We have to deal in facts.
There's no facts of support that this woman was murdered.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
That from our friends at WFSB, and that was Officer
Christian Brooke Hart from New Haven PD. Okay, Ryan Fitzgibbons,
same thing, second verse, same as the first. You've got
a dead female in advanced state of decomp it's Denise
Leary and she's found in dead overgrowth behind a fence line.
(34:43):
What she just went out there and had a stroke.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
That's not what happened, absolutely, Nancy.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
There seems to be a lot of unanswered questions, and
we know that law enforcement is going to protect information
about ongoing cases, but it is particularly frustrating when they
drone on with the same, the same old story that
there's nothing to be worried about here. You know, this
case seems like there had to be follow play.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
So that's denayse Leary. Now there's Michelle Romano. Listen.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Michelle Romano was born and raised in Rhode Island with
three siblings. Graduating from Coventry High School, Michelle goes into
social work and when her two children, Jaden and Fallon,
are in high school, she lands her dream job at
the Trudeau Center in Warwick for individuals with disabilities. Neighbors
say it's like Michelle Romano just vanished. The friendly loving
mother walks her dog every night, but in late July
(35:37):
the walks suddenly stop and no one can get a
hold of her. Warwick Police also asked the public for
any information on Michelle, saying she was last seen July
twenty second in the Oakland Beach area. Michelle is five
feet tall with black hair.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
I know something was wrong immediately because she wouldn't like Johnson.
She wouldn't never ever leave her kids behind.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
From our friend's WPR, I back to Harmonia Rodrigue as
joining us Chapus reporter Daily Mail, what about Michelle Romano.
Speaker 9 (36:06):
Let's right. Michelle was lasting last summer and wasn't found
until early April, also in a wooded area, but as
you have been mentioning Nancy. The police have not told
us how she died. They have only said that they
are looking into the suspicious circumstances around her death. So
again no information about the manner or cause of death,
(36:27):
just that they're looking into it. But the similarity is,
of course the way it was found, and Michelle was
one of the victims that had been missing the longest.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Then of course there is another dead body that is
found in Killingly, Connecticut, and then of course there's a
Framingham body.
Speaker 8 (36:46):
Listen at nine forty five pm, Whalent and Framingham, Massachusetts
firefighters put out a brush fire near the Massachusetts Turnpike
when they stumble on a human skeleton. Police search the
area once the blaze is controlled, finding nothing to help
identify the remains or what happened.
Speaker 9 (37:02):
To the victim.
Speaker 8 (37:03):
It appears the remains had been there for months. A
forensic anthropologist is working to identify the remains.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
So it seems to me, there Harmonia Rodriguez, that the
remains tried to be obscured.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
We're obscured by a brush fire, right.
Speaker 9 (37:19):
That's a new aspect of this particular body that was found.
That there was also a fire that happened at the
same time of the discovery, making the remains really hard
to identify. As many as half of these bodies have
not been identified because of how decomposed or destroyed they were.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Now just one hour away, correct me if I'm wrong,
because there's a lot of dead bodies we're juggling here,
and a lot of fact scenarios. Harmonia Rodriguez, you've got
the body found in a brushfire. I guess cops are
going to say what she had a heart attack, fell
over and died, and then someone happened to throw a
lit match near Okay, but then one hour away in Springfield,
(38:04):
mass This.
Speaker 5 (38:05):
Happens eight am Tuesday morning, Springfield, Massachusetts. First responders rushed
to a bike trail along the Connecticut River. A nine
to one one caller reported and unconscious woman. When help arrives,
the woman is declared deceased. Police have not released Megan
Meredith's cause of death, but it is being investigated as
(38:25):
a homicide.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
So you've got Hermionia Rodriguez, You've got one woman, dad.
The body is set on fire in Whyland, the Farmingham,
mass area, and then an hour away another dead female
that being Megan Meredith and police are not releasing a
COEOD cause of death, is that right?
Speaker 1 (38:45):
That's right.
Speaker 9 (38:46):
This was the last body or the most recent remains
that were found in the area, and police did say
that it appears to be a homicide. However, they are
still once again not giving it doesn't appear because this
remains of the victim. It was reported at someone as
someone being on responsive, so the suggestion is that these
(39:08):
remains were not as decomposed as others, but that's all
we know.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Again, authorities insisting there's not a serial killer at but
a Facebook group now telling nearly seventy thousand members disagree.
Speaker 13 (39:23):
District Attorney Anthony Gallini tells the public Springfield is safe,
despite the seven other sets of remains found in the
last two months and another woman's murder in Springfield's Forest
Park in January. Speculation about a serial killer in New
England is gaining significant traction online. The New England serial
Killer Facebook groups sixty seven thousand members and users on
(39:46):
other platforms like TikTok and x are pointing to several
recent discoveries of human remains in Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Rhode
Island between March and April, Google shows a huge spike
in searches for New England serial killer. While police say
the rumors are unfounded, they are having a hard time
convincing the public otherwise.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
To Jane Barowski joining us, the lone survivor of the
Connecticut River Valley serial killer, there's not even a tip
line set up for the alleged New England serial killer.
There's not We tried to find one. There's not one.
Isn't that suspicious?
Speaker 11 (40:22):
Like?
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Do they want to solve these cases? Exactly? So?
Speaker 2 (40:27):
The best number we can give if you know or
think you know about any of these seven dead bodies,
please call spring Fold PD four three seven, eight, seven,
six three five five repeat four one three, seven, eight, seven,
(40:47):
six y three five y five. Nancy Gray signing off,
goodbye friend,
Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Is there a New England serial killer? In the last
days grim discoveries fueling serial killer fears, the body count
rising eight bodies found in New England within just weeks.
I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
thank you for.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
Being with us.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Darre in New England. As towns across Connecticut, Rhode Island,
and Massachusetts are rocked by the gruesome discovery of several
sets of remains in various stages of decomposition, residents fear
a serial killer is on the loose living amongst them.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
Joining us an all star panel, but straight out to
the scenes. Standing by Brian Fitzgibbons, Director Operations, USPA Nationwide Security,
leading a team of investigator specializing and locating missing people
at USPA Security dot Com. Brian, thank you for being
with us. Explain where you are in a significance.
Speaker 4 (01:03):
I'm right now in Plymouth, Massachusetts, just adjacent to a
patch of woods where just about a month ago, a
human skull was discovered by a hunter who was walking
a couple of deer paths looking for antlers. Less than
three weeks ago, Massachusetts State Police and the Plymouth Police
(01:26):
searched the woods after the skull was found. Notably, just
the skull was found. Police have not identified the skull
or any other remains in the area right now.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Well, rav Is Gibbons, curious, You and I have investigated
and covered, and I prosecuted a lot of cases where
only portions of the body were found here the skull now.
Very often, when there is a densely area like where
(02:01):
you are right now in Plymouth, animal activity, in other words,
animals tearing apart the body will be responsible for a
certain amount of disbursement. But Bravus Gibbons, if the disbursement
was due to animal activity, you would expect to find
(02:22):
other bones, maybe not all of them, maybe never all
of them, but some of them within dragging distance. You
would find a femur, a tibia, that something, an arm
leg bone nearby within thirty forty yards where the animal
has dragged it off to eat it.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
So this tells me maybe.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Human hands were involved in disposing of this body.
Speaker 4 (02:51):
Brian, Absolutely, Nancy, And to paint a better picture for
the audience, this patch of woods is relatively small. It's
contained by a major highway and a couple of large
residential neighborhoods, So access to this patch of woods is
very limited. There's really only one secluded access point to it.
(03:13):
The terrain is very difficult, so when you look at
the map, it's up and downhill. It's not in there
full of briers as you can see on the screen
right now. So carrying a body into this area unseen
would be very difficult.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
Okay, you just said something very very important, Bryan fitzgib
is Brian on the Saine near Plymouth. That means to
me that someone that knew the area or had regular
access to it is responsible for putting the skull there,
if not the rest of the body. Why Because it is,
as you said, cornered on all sides residential highway.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
Okay, what were you saying?
Speaker 4 (03:55):
You're exactly right, Nancy. You would have to know where
this access point. It's by the underpass on Root three.
That's the one spot that you can get into the
woods without having to go through a neighborhood that has
seven hundred thousand dollars homes ring cameras everywhere. You know,
it would be very difficult to get in there unseen.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Hold on, hold on, it's Gibbons. You just said it
borders on Route three. There's an overpass. What is Root three?
Is it heavily traveled? Does it go from where to where?
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Rout three? In that photo that went viral of the
state police doing the search, Rout three is a main
thoroughfare between Boston and Cape Cod, so it's very heavily
traveled all hours of the day. That's the main highway
going through Plymouth.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Well, okay, Brevi, it's Gibbons. You just opened up the
pool of suspects. I mean it's like a volcano. What
just speed out of your mouth.
Speaker 1 (04:51):
Ruth three guys. From Boston to Cape Cod.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
It's very heavily traveled, which means anybody driving by can
look down and see that patch of woods and think, wow,
that's a great spot to hide a body.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
Very very similar to the case of.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Shasta and Dylan Gronie where a truck driver drove by
in Crudelane. If you saw the aeriel Brian it's all green, okay,
so very rural.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
And he happens to see at a distance Shasta.
Speaker 2 (05:27):
On an above ground pool. He lies and waits, kills
the whole family and takes the two children. That's what
happens the purpose sees something and suddenly they get an
evil plan hatched in their head. Guys, tonight, fears of
the New England serial killer as he and it's typically
(05:49):
a man is called, have been sparked eight bodies found
in recent weeks.
Speaker 5 (05:55):
Listen, the public is terrified there's a serial killer on
the loose in New England. In just two months, eight
sets of remains have been discovered in Connecticut, Rhode Island
and Massachusetts. Only half of those victims have been identified.
All of the bodies are in various stages of decomposition.
One woman only deceased a few hours, while another discovery
(06:17):
only included a jawless human skull.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Okay, Brian has gibbons.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
That's the skull to which you are referring, the jawless
human skull. And we're just showing video of that neighborhood.
Let's see that again. You don't usually find a human
skull behind a million dollar house. Okay, so this is
what we're talking about. Brian, back to you, this is significant.
(06:45):
Rarely and a neighborhood like this, do you find a
dismembered body in your backyard?
Speaker 6 (06:50):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (06:51):
So that woods is direct maybe one hundred and fifty
two hundred yards behind these houses that you're seeing here,
and then it butts on the other side of the
woods that major Route three. Okay, so that's what you're
dealing with now. When I searched the area yesterday and today,
there were a few campsites that looked like abandoned maybe
(07:14):
homeless campsites or small party sites that teenagers had been at.
There's also a bike path that clearly had been ridden,
maybe by local area teams or kids, so that that
patch of woods is accessible. The terrain is difficult, but
there has been some traffic through there.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
You know, there's another issues. I'm looking at that interstate footage.
Jason osen is joining me veteran trial lawyer joining us
out of New York, but also practices in these jurisdictions. Jason,
if I mean you and I both taken the Peter
Pan bus from New York to Boston back and forth,
or the train, So if someone's driving along, I'm trying
(07:57):
to get my head around where this particular body, one.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Of eight was disposed.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
When you're driving along, you can't just park on the
interstate that you and I have traveled many many times,
get out of your car, and drag a big plastic
trash bag out to the woods. You have to look
at a place where you can access it off the
road and hide it without being caught, or go there
by foot. And that is what is interesting about what
(08:24):
Fits Gibbons is saying. So somebody didn't just they may
have seen it from the interstate the spot to hide
a body, but they did not go to the spot
leaving the interstate on foot. You have to get out
and go around and possibly even part in this neighborhood.
But I guarantee you one of these millionaires didn't throw
a dead body or a skull practically in their own backyard.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
That did not happen.
Speaker 7 (08:47):
Now, when it seems why description limited as to the
type of animals that would be able to access across
the road and grab that. So you know, the theory
that it was done by human hands is quite plausible.
And as you point out, someone must have surveyed this
land because of its inaccessibility, because of the houses as
(09:09):
we've seen, bordered and the highway. So someone took the
time to purposely decide that this was a location for
a depositing.
Speaker 1 (09:19):
That's called you're right, You're right. Oceans guys.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
Eight bodies discovered in the same region in a matter
of weeks. Let's just start with thirty five year old
Page Fannin.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Page Fannin thirty five, is reported missing March fourth, after
failing to open her West Islip Long Island hair salon
and not returning calls from family members. The next day,
police get a tip that Page may have been seen
in Wilton, Connecticut, near Schneck's Island. March six, Wilton PD
teams up with Norwalk PD to search the area with drones.
An officer spots closed on the bank of the Norwalk River.
(09:51):
Family members confirmed the items belonged to Page.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
And then Page's body found despite fast moving water from
heavy rainfalls.
Speaker 8 (09:59):
Police and fire person now search along the banks of
the Norfolk River, while a dive team searches the water
at Main Avenue and Gristmill Road. The scuba team discovers
human remains. They belonged to Paige fan and reported missing
two days earlier. Law enforcement has not released Page's cause
of death.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
In addition to Brian Fitzgibbons joining us from the saying
their employment and veteran trial lawyer Jason Ocean is joining
me now. Harmonia Rodriguez chfus reporter with dailymail dot Com, Harmonia,
thank you for being with us. Also host of Welcome
to Magalan podcast Harmonia. The skull to which fitz Gibbons
is referring it was green in color?
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Is that correct?
Speaker 9 (10:40):
That's right and clearly, as you said, all of these
remains were being found in the same area and there
seems to be details that tie them. But one of
the strange things, it's all the composition levels were different.
Page that we just mentioned. Her body had only gone
missing a few days prior to it being found, so
she was not as decompose some of the other remains
(11:02):
that police have found. As you mentioned, this skull was
beyond any point of recognition.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Green in color.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
Joining me now or a now expert Doctor Kendall Crown's
chief medical Examiner, Arrett County.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
That'sport Worth and.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Has just launched a brand new podcast, Mayhem and the Morgue.
A stame lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU,
Doctor Keindl Crowns, thank you for being with us.
Speaker 1 (11:27):
What does that tell you that the skull was green
in color?
Speaker 6 (11:32):
It can be a number of things that could be.
It's been out in those woods long enough that moss
or mold is starting to grow on it, which will
discolor the skull. Also, the dirt composition in the area,
if it has a high copper content, can cause a
green discoloration as well. And then finally, it could be
something associated with the individual's death or chemical being used
(11:59):
to try and bleach the skull or get flesh off
the skull, or something along those lines.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
It's okay, well you're telling me something and I've never
heard before. Stop right there, Dodtor Crowns, people actually bleach
a skull.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
What did you just say?
Speaker 6 (12:16):
Well, so, what I was saying was they may have
tried to use chemicals to try and get rid of
the tissue off the the skull. I miss misspoke by
saying bleach, but by using the chemicals it could have
discolored the bones in a way.
Speaker 2 (12:29):
Okay, you know, doctor Kendall Crowns, every time I talk
to you, I learned something completely neat. So a skull
can be discolored, possibly turning green, if the killer has
tried to remove all the flesh so as to hide
the identity of the victim. And that okay, so the
(12:49):
skull could be discolored because of that. A possibility is
I'm going to circle back to the age of the skull,
but we've got seven more victims to add.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
That's in Plymouth, what about Greton?
Speaker 10 (13:04):
With a very vague call where it was that determine
where the item was at and during the initial investigation
home we located human.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
Remains Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 10 (13:26):
A groutin Connecticut. Resident visiting a loved one at the
Colonel Ludyard Cemetery calls police to report a suspicious item
just outside the cemetery entrance. Responding officers make a grizzly
discovery a woman's remains in a suitcase. Police save a
woman has lightly pigmented skin and may suffer from Turner syndrome,
which causes a very wide neck and broad chest, among
(13:49):
several other physical differences. Investigators believe her remains were dumped
there in mid February.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Now, I don't want to be misleading in any way.
I do not believe that they so military victim is
connected to all the other bodies, and this is why the.
Speaker 11 (14:04):
Victim is identified as Suzanne Wormser, aged fifty eight, who's
a resident of the city of Grotton, The suspect is
identified as Donald Koffel, aged sixty eight, who's also a
resident of the city of Grotton. The suspect was interviewed
for a third time and at that time confessed to
the murder, providing details that matched the scene documentation as
(14:29):
well as evidence collected by the investigators today. The suspect
was arrested and transferred to the state of Department corrections.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
That still leaves me seven dead bodies and counting.
Speaker 3 (14:43):
Page Fanning is a thirty five year old hairdresser from
West Islip, New York. All seems well until the young
woman is reported missing after failing to return calls from
concerned family members. An intense investigation leads authorities to the
bank of the Norwalk River, where pages closed and remains
are av located. That same day, just one state away,
(15:03):
a weathered skull with a missing jaw is discovered in Massachusetts.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Page fan of one of eight dead people their bodies
turning up scattered across the same region.
Speaker 1 (15:13):
Eight bodies.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
I think we can exclude one of them from any
suggestion that a serial killer was involved. That leaves me
with seven dead bodies, connected or not. Now, this is
what authorities want us to believe.
Speaker 12 (15:28):
Listen, there have been many rumors and unsassociated fear mongering
taking place in the social media, making the city and
surrounding communities seem like unsafe places to live. I am
here to assure you that the city of Grindon is
among the safest communities in the Northeast.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Okay, the same exact thing was said about so many
serial killers telling people you're safe, You're fine. There's no
such thing as a serial killer walking amongst us. What
does the name Portland serial killer ring a bell.
Speaker 4 (16:02):
They're aware that there seems to be some similarities there,
but it's too soon for them to say that there's
anything directly linked between These.
Speaker 13 (16:09):
Rumors of a serial killer in Portland, Oregon begin with
twenty two year old Kristen Smith's remains in February. Six
weeks later, Joanna Speaks is found on an abandoned property dead.
Weeks later, Charity Lynn Perry and an unidentified woman are
found dead. The same day, thirty one year old Bridget
Webster is discovered on a rural road, and just one
(16:30):
week later, twenty two year old Ashley Reel is found
dead in a heavily wooded area.
Speaker 14 (16:35):
A grand jury has indicted Jesse Calhoun on murder and
abuse of a corpse charges in connection to the death
of Charity Perry Bridget Webster and Joanna speaks that.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
From our friends a ko I N six authorities reiterated
over and over, it was like a mantra second verse,
same as the first. There's not a serial killer, there's
not a serial killer. There was a serial killer. And
then with egg on their face, they say this.
Speaker 15 (17:04):
We recognize that until today there have been many questions
and that their desks have caused fear and anxiety across
our area and for the families who have been waiting
for answers.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
Now from our fans at KPTV Fox twelve, back to
Brian Fitzgibbons joining us on the same Plymouth mass I
want to circle back to the significance of the skull
missing a jawbone being weathered. We believe till it was
green in color. The likelihood is that that was from
(17:37):
age out in the woods, and it may not take
that long. It could be weeks, it could be months.
I don't necessarily believe it has to be years, depending
on the weather, but that said that significant. Brian Fitzgibbons,
because if these end up being connected, that shows the
sk serial killer has been working at work in this area,
(18:00):
this region for some time.
Speaker 4 (18:02):
Absolutely. Nancy and Massachusetts State Police have released very limited information,
but that was one of the points that they did release,
that this skull had been there for quite some time now.
That has caused some concern of two local families of
missing women, Sandra Crispo, missing since twenty nineteen, and Brittany McCormick,
(18:24):
who's been missing since the summer of twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
Back to doctor Kendall Crown's joining US Chief Medical Examiner
Terren County, star of a brand new hit podcast, Mayhem
in the Morgue, a couple of quick questions, Doctor Kendall Crowns, again,
thank you for being with us. How do you look
at a skull and determine if it's male or female? Specifically, now,
(18:46):
we don't have a jawbone.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
If you don't have a jawbone, can you have the
upper teeth?
Speaker 6 (18:52):
Yes, The upper teeth are part of the maxilla which
is attached to the skull, so you will still see
the upper teeth stayed in place. Because when the guns
disappear often the teeth will also fall out as well.
One of the things that anthropologists will look at for
variating in males and females. There is a little subtle
(19:13):
shapes and changes to the skull bones that the anthropologists
can use to figure out if it's a female or
a male. What subtle differences There can be some changes,
and particularly the eye sockets can look a little different
from males to females, and then the overall structure and shape.
Often the male's skulls will be larger, but occasionally do
(19:34):
get these smaller males that can look like female skulls
as well.
Speaker 2 (19:37):
And I believe there are differences in the size of
the forehead. Can you, based on the teeth determine the
age of the victim if we have if there are
teeth left, Doctor Kendall Crowns.
Speaker 6 (19:51):
Yes, you can tell age on an individual bite based
on teeth because with children, of course, the teeth aren't
all erupted, and so the teeth I'm in a varying
time throughout your life, so you can get an idea
up to when your wisdom teeth come out of age range.
But once the wisdom teeth are out, it is difficult
to age someone based on teeth, although you can look
(20:12):
at how the wear patterns and things like that and
get an idea that they are older.
Speaker 2 (20:16):
And of course you can possibly even make an id
through dental records. But the problem with that is, Brian Fitzgibbons,
you've got to have somebody to compare it too. Just
for instance, if I were to find your skull okay
out in the woods behind you there near Plymouth, mass
and I suspect it's you, and I don't have any
(20:39):
tissue left, I can't get any DNA. If I think
it's you, I can compare the teeth to your dental records,
because nobody else is going to show that you had
braces not once but twice, that you had one wisdom
tooth removed, but not the others, that you had a
cavity here, here, and here. No body else is going
(21:00):
to have the same pattern dental or orthodontia work.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
That you do.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
The odds are millions to one, that's one way. But
you got to have something to compare the unknown teeth too,
and here we got nothing.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
Brian, I think you're right.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
At this point, we haven't heard that any teeth have
been located and I can tell you, Nancy, the number
of state police and local police vehicles and agents that
were in that woods was high. It's a very dense
forest with thick underbrush, so it would have been very
hard to locate any teeth that it may have fallen
(21:41):
out of that skull.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
What about the possibility, doctor Kendle Crowns, of getting DNA.
Speaker 6 (21:45):
Yes, you can get DNA from the skull, especially if
the teeth are still there, because the teeth are actually
something will removed to get DNA from the pulp structure
in the teeth have a nice amount of kind of
blood bloody pulp that we can use for doing DNA from.
So there's teeth.
Speaker 1 (22:02):
What if we don't have teeth, Kendle, it.
Speaker 6 (22:04):
Becomes a little more difficult. If there isn't any bone
marrow left in that skull, it it's almost impossible to
get DNA from it. But if there's a two you
can definitely do DNA tested.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Next question, Doctor Kendall Crowns, how long does it take
for the bone marrow to dissipate or disappear?
Speaker 6 (22:19):
It depends on the temperature outside, how long they've been
out there, the weather conditions, the heat all that can
dry up the bone marrow quite quickly. But again, if
there's anything left, you can get DNA from it. But
I would say once you get into weeks or months,
(22:39):
it'd be days versus weeks in the summer months, in
the fall and winter.
Speaker 3 (22:44):
A series of bone chilling discoveries in New England continues
when Suzanne Wormser's remains are found stuffed in a suitcase
in a Connecticut cemetery. This at the heels of two
other sets of remains located earlier in the month across
Massachusetts and Connecticut. But it doesn't stop there. Just a
day later, Connecticut Mom Denny's Leary's remains are found in
New Haven.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
Is a serial killer stalking in the New England region?
So far, all we hear is no, no, no no
from authorities, But that's what authorities always say when they
are confronted with evidence that there is a serial killer.
Eight bodies turning up within weeks, I believe killed over
(23:26):
a period of time. One of those murders has been solved,
so we're.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Subtracting that out.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
We still have seven bodies and County joining me right
now is a very special guest joining us. Jane Barowski
at seven months pregnant.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Let that sink in. She was stabbed twenty seven times.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
She is the lone survivor of the Connecticut River Valley
serial killer and host of podcast Invisible Tier.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Jane, thank you so much for being with us. Oh,
thank you Nancy for having me. Ms Barrowsky.
Speaker 2 (24:06):
When you heard the news that a serial killer could
be stalking New England again, what went through your mind?
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I was.
Speaker 16 (24:17):
I was quite frustrated when I was listening to law
enforcement talk talk about all these cases, saying they're not suspicious,
they don't believe there's a serial killer, and that that
that really concerned me because, as far as I'm concerned,
(24:38):
if they don't be honest, then people put their guard
down and just disregard all this. So to me, I
wanted to start talking about it more so that people
could start being more aware of their surroundings.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
And we're showing a sketch right now now, Jane.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
Hold on, Jane, I'm sorry to interrupt, but we're suddenly
showing a sketch of the Connecticut River Valley serial killer.
Speaker 16 (25:07):
That sketch right there is the composite that I did
of the person that or the monster that attacked me.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Jane, Why are you so concerned about what LA law
enforcement is saying now about the possibility of the New
England serial killer?
Speaker 16 (25:22):
Because I think that they should be letting people know
that they need to be more vigilant about what they're
doing on a day to day basis. They need to,
you know, start thinking about their safety and be more
aware of their surroundings and you know the buddy system and.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
You know, carry protection.
Speaker 16 (25:46):
They say that all these cases are not suspicious, but
they're not actually telling anybody what the manner of death
is like if it's.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
A suicide, Oh my goodness, Jane, to know, Jane, that's
what I've got written in big letters with a magic marker.
If you don't even know the cod cause of death
with these seven remaining that we know of seven dead bodies.
Speaker 1 (26:14):
Then how can you say they're not connected?
Speaker 2 (26:17):
I mean, I agree with you, that is unfounded and
that's suspicious.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
That's very suspicious.
Speaker 16 (26:24):
Like if you can't share that or you don't know
I mean some of these bodies or remains, they've already
said that it's not suspicious before they even sent them
out to be examined. How can they even determine.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
That it's frustrating problem, don't move. Jane Browski. Another problem
to Brian Fitzgibbons joining us at the sea where one
of the sets of remains were found.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
Brian usp a nationwide.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Security leading a team of investigators finding missing people and
helping to solve unsolved homicides.
Speaker 1 (27:02):
Brian the prompt one of the mini problems.
Speaker 2 (27:05):
Here is and this is not peculiar to New England,
this is everywhere. This is why Bundy took so long
to solve, and israel Keys took so long to solve,
and so many others took so long to solve. You
basically have to take out an ad on Third Avenue.
Speaker 1 (27:20):
I did it.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
I'm the serial killer because the law enforcement aren't stupid,
They're not dumb. Is that jurisdictions are not in the
same system. You could have two dead bodies with different
inmos of disposal in let's just say Massachusetts, and then
another dead body in Connecticut with a different method of disposal,
(27:44):
and on and on and nobody. It's not that they
hate each other or they're intentionally ignoring each other. It's
they don't have the ability the structural possibilities of that
being in the same database. What I mean, they're not
talking to each other about these dead bodies.
Speaker 4 (28:05):
Certainly, Nancy. And that's where you know, law enforcement would
consider and should consider the creation of a task force
where there's one of these, where these agenceencies can openly
collaborate and communicate on evidence, the victimology of the victims
that have been found here and in any new data
(28:25):
that comes up along their investigations.
Speaker 2 (28:27):
Joining us from New Hampshire, Jamee Browski, the lone survivor,
the only one that we know survive the Connecticut River
Valley serial killer. I don't blame them Ellie for not
knowing what's going on, for instance, and Bundy, how would
somebody that's uh And I had a fellow prosecutor that
was one of the first cops on the scene at
(28:48):
the cay Omega massacre, and he was a rookie. He
said he told one day that he said something like,
stay calm, your friends have been brutally murdered upstairs, and
of course they all started screaming. He was a rookie
that was sent to the scene. So you know, why
would law enforcement answering that call investigating that case? Thing hey,
(29:13):
I should look at Colorado murders. They shouldn't. It is
not in the same database. So Bundy went on a
nationwide spree. And I submit, there are still unsolved murders
of Bundy's victims. But what I do blame them with,
along with Jane Barowski, who live to tell the tale,
(29:33):
is telling people don't look at the man behind the curtain,
don't look over here, look over here. There's not a
serial killer. But they won't say why Jane exactly.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
I agree with you, Nancy. It's frustrating.
Speaker 16 (29:48):
You know, I get that there's different states involved and
all that, but I mean, come on, let's be honest.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
This is suspicious.
Speaker 16 (29:59):
And I don't see a reason why they can't elaborate
that that these cases are suspicious. They don't know if
any of them are connected. There could be a possibility.
They don't know, But I mean, they need to be
more honest with the public. You know, they don't want
to raise red flags and they don't want to raise
fear and all that. But with them saying nothing that
(30:23):
raises fear, that's suspicious.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
What happened in your case, Jane?
Speaker 16 (30:29):
With me, I had left a fair I lived in
a very small community in New Hampshire, and I left
a fair and I was driving home that night. This
was in a very small town that in nineteen eighty
eight virtually had no major crime. And I stopped at
(30:53):
a closed door to get a soda out of a
soda machine, and Munster came and parked next to me,
and he got out and came over to my car
and tried to get me out of my car and
get me to go with him. I fought, I refused
to go with him, and as I was trying to
(31:17):
get away from him, he ultimately tackled me down and
stabbed me twenty seven times.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Tell me about drawing this sketch of him, Well, I
was in ICU.
Speaker 16 (31:31):
This was drawn approximately two or three days after my attack.
I was in ICU. I was on an incubator. I
had two collapse lungs. He sliced my juggler, he sliced
my tenin in my thumb, sliced the ten in in
(31:52):
my knee. And the detectives came in with this box
of slides. Different eyes, different faces, face shapes, different mouths,
different noses, different hair, And so they showed me a slide,
and that whole composite was done by me blinking once
(32:14):
for yes and two for no, and that's how that
composite was created. I wish that they had set me
up with an artist after I got out of the
hospital so I could have had a more detailed sketch
of him, but unfortunately they never did that. So that's
(32:35):
the only composite that we have out there.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Crime stores with Nancy Grace.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
The on identified Connecticut River Valley serial killer is responsible
for the murders of seven young women, all within the
Connecticut River Valley region of New England. And he is
still walking free, still unsolved. And you said your daughter
(33:18):
is a miracle. Why did you say that.
Speaker 16 (33:20):
I was seven months pregnant, ear, and you know she survived.
I ended up carrying her for another two months after
my attack and she survives.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
So she is a miracle.
Speaker 16 (33:31):
I believe that it's because of her that I survived.
Because she wanted to survive and live, it gave me
the strength to survive.
Speaker 5 (33:40):
Residents of Rock Creek Road in New Haven, Connecticut, are
spending time cleaning up their gardens as spring arrives. When
one homeowner makes a grizzly discovery as the homeowner clears
dead overgrowth from their fence line. They discover human remains
and call nine one one. Investigators say the remains are
in an advanced state of decomposition. Four days later, the
(34:03):
Chief Medical Examiner says the remains belonged to Denise Leary,
reported missing nearly six months ago. Leary's cause of death
is undetermined.
Speaker 1 (34:13):
Social media can speculate. We have to deal in facts.
There's no facts of support that this woman was murdered.
Speaker 2 (34:18):
That from our friends at WFSB, and that was Officer
Christian Brooke Hart from New Haven PD. Okay, Ryan Fitzgibbons,
same thing, second verse, same as the first. You've got
a dead female in advanced state of decomp it's Denise
Leary and she's found in dead overgrowth behind a fence line.
(34:43):
What she just went out there and had a stroke.
Speaker 1 (34:46):
That's not what happened, absolutely, Nancy.
Speaker 4 (34:48):
There seems to be a lot of unanswered questions, and
we know that law enforcement is going to protect information
about ongoing cases, but it is particularly frustrating when they
drone on with the same, the same old story that
there's nothing to be worried about here. You know, this
case seems like there had to be follow play.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
So that's denayse Leary. Now there's Michelle Romano. Listen.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Michelle Romano was born and raised in Rhode Island with
three siblings. Graduating from Coventry High School, Michelle goes into
social work and when her two children, Jaden and Fallon,
are in high school, she lands her dream job at
the Trudeau Center in Warwick for individuals with disabilities. Neighbors
say it's like Michelle Romano just vanished. The friendly loving
mother walks her dog every night, but in late July
(35:37):
the walks suddenly stop and no one can get a
hold of her. Warwick Police also asked the public for
any information on Michelle, saying she was last seen July
twenty second in the Oakland Beach area. Michelle is five
feet tall with black hair.
Speaker 1 (35:50):
I know something was wrong immediately because she wouldn't like Johnson.
She wouldn't never ever leave her kids behind.
Speaker 2 (35:56):
From our friend's WPR, I back to Harmonia Rodrigue as
joining us Chapus reporter Daily Mail, what about Michelle Romano.
Speaker 9 (36:06):
Let's right. Michelle was lasting last summer and wasn't found
until early April, also in a wooded area, but as
you have been mentioning Nancy. The police have not told
us how she died. They have only said that they
are looking into the suspicious circumstances around her death. So
again no information about the manner or cause of death,
(36:27):
just that they're looking into it. But the similarity is,
of course the way it was found, and Michelle was
one of the victims that had been missing the longest.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Then of course there is another dead body that is
found in Killingly, Connecticut, and then of course there's a
Framingham body.
Speaker 8 (36:46):
Listen at nine forty five pm, Whalent and Framingham, Massachusetts
firefighters put out a brush fire near the Massachusetts Turnpike
when they stumble on a human skeleton. Police search the
area once the blaze is controlled, finding nothing to help
identify the remains or what happened.
Speaker 9 (37:02):
To the victim.
Speaker 8 (37:03):
It appears the remains had been there for months. A
forensic anthropologist is working to identify the remains.
Speaker 2 (37:09):
So it seems to me, there Harmonia Rodriguez, that the
remains tried to be obscured.
Speaker 1 (37:16):
We're obscured by a brush fire, right.
Speaker 9 (37:19):
That's a new aspect of this particular body that was found.
That there was also a fire that happened at the
same time of the discovery, making the remains really hard
to identify. As many as half of these bodies have
not been identified because of how decomposed or destroyed they were.
Speaker 2 (37:39):
Now just one hour away, correct me if I'm wrong,
because there's a lot of dead bodies we're juggling here,
and a lot of fact scenarios. Harmonia Rodriguez, you've got
the body found in a brushfire. I guess cops are
going to say what she had a heart attack, fell
over and died, and then someone happened to throw a
lit match near Okay, but then one hour away in Springfield,
(38:04):
mass This.
Speaker 5 (38:05):
Happens eight am Tuesday morning, Springfield, Massachusetts. First responders rushed
to a bike trail along the Connecticut River. A nine
to one one caller reported and unconscious woman. When help arrives,
the woman is declared deceased. Police have not released Megan
Meredith's cause of death, but it is being investigated as
(38:25):
a homicide.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
So you've got Hermionia Rodriguez, You've got one woman, dad.
The body is set on fire in Whyland, the Farmingham,
mass area, and then an hour away another dead female
that being Megan Meredith and police are not releasing a
COEOD cause of death, is that right?
Speaker 1 (38:45):
That's right.
Speaker 9 (38:46):
This was the last body or the most recent remains
that were found in the area, and police did say
that it appears to be a homicide. However, they are
still once again not giving it doesn't appear because this
remains of the victim. It was reported at someone as
someone being on responsive, so the suggestion is that these
(39:08):
remains were not as decomposed as others, but that's all
we know.
Speaker 2 (39:12):
Again, authorities insisting there's not a serial killer at but
a Facebook group now telling nearly seventy thousand members disagree.
Speaker 13 (39:23):
District Attorney Anthony Gallini tells the public Springfield is safe,
despite the seven other sets of remains found in the
last two months and another woman's murder in Springfield's Forest
Park in January. Speculation about a serial killer in New
England is gaining significant traction online. The New England serial
Killer Facebook groups sixty seven thousand members and users on
(39:46):
other platforms like TikTok and x are pointing to several
recent discoveries of human remains in Connecticut, Massachusetts, and Rhode
Island between March and April, Google shows a huge spike
in searches for New England serial killer. While police say
the rumors are unfounded, they are having a hard time
convincing the public otherwise.
Speaker 2 (40:06):
To Jane Barowski joining us, the lone survivor of the
Connecticut River Valley serial killer, there's not even a tip
line set up for the alleged New England serial killer.
There's not We tried to find one. There's not one.
Isn't that suspicious?
Speaker 11 (40:22):
Like?
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Do they want to solve these cases? Exactly? So?
Speaker 2 (40:27):
The best number we can give if you know or
think you know about any of these seven dead bodies,
please call spring Fold PD four three seven, eight, seven,
six three five five repeat four one three, seven, eight, seven,
(40:47):
six y three five y five. Nancy Gray signing off,
goodbye friend,
Host
Nancy Grace
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